The School of Greatness - 551 How Boredom Leads to Brilliance with Manoush Zomorodi

Episode Date: October 18, 2017

"Being productive is working smarter, not harder." - Manoush Zomorodi If you enjoyed this episode, check out show notes, video, and more at http://lewishowes.com/551

This is episode number 551 with Manoush Zomorodi. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. The cure for boredom is curiosity.

There is no cure for curiosity. It's a quote by Ellen Parr, and I'm super excited about our guest today. Her name is Manoush Zomorodi, and she is the host and managing editor of Note to Self, the tech show about being human from WNYC Studios. And every week on her podcast, Manoush searches for answers to life's digital quandaries through experiments and conversations with listeners and experts. In 2017, Manoush and Note to Self launched The Privacy Paradox, which is a five-part plan to help people take back control over their digital identity.

Tens of thousands of listeners have completed the project so far, which Fast Company calls Manoush's challenge to us to stick up for our internet rights. She's won numerous awards for her work, and she is also the author of the new book, Bored and Brilliant. And I love this topic, and I'm so pumped for us to get into this because we cover a few key things, including why being bored does something special to our brains and unlocks something magical.

Also, how we're confusing productivity with reactivity. The best way to come up with creative solutions to complex problems, why you wake up in the middle of the night from overthinking, and how to coach your children to use technology in healthy ways. And I give an example early on in this interview about a friend of mine who's going through a transition, trying to figure out what she wants to do next, and a very successful in past careers, but feels kind of stuck. And we're going to tap into how you can do this in your own life as well in the first few minutes. But before we dive in, I want to give a shout out to the fan of the week. This is from Sabrina, who said, I've just started your podcast and I'm listening to episodes at random. I've made your show a daily part of my routine. I listen every morning. First

thing I do, I put your show on the loud speaker while I drink my coffee in the morning. I've been really inspired by your talks and I'm impressed with your natural ability to listen and react and asking questions. I just listened to episode 300 with Jesse Itzler, and I just love it. Pushing boundaries. Thanks so much, Sabrina. So Sabrina, thank you so much for being the review and fan of the week. And if you guys want to have a chance to be shout out on the podcast, just go over to your podcast app and go to the School of Greatness podcast over on iTunes or the podcast app and leave us a review and let us know your thoughts. Thank you guys again so much

for all your support and those reviews really help get the message out there. All right, guys, how boredom leads to brilliance. Let's dive in with the one, the only Manoush Zomorodi. Welcome back, everyone,

to the School of Greatness podcast. We have Manoush Zomorodi in the house. High five. Welcome to LA. Excited that you're here. Thank you. I'm excited to be here. I can't remember who sent me the book.

My publicist? Your publicist probably sent me the book. And I never heard of you. Uh-huh. Thanks. And I remember- I'd heard of you, Lewis. I appreciate it.

So that was good. I never heard of you, but I saw the title of it, and I sent it to Christine. She's always the second one to say yes or no. Uh-huh. you, Lewis. I appreciate it. So that was good. I never heard of you, but I saw the title of it and I sent it to Christine. She's always the second one to say yes or no. And she was like, at least let's get the book and check it out. So we got, I think, a couple of books. And I looked at it and I was like, actually, this is a really important topic. It is. Initially, I was like, is this going to be interesting?

My initial thought. Because it had the word boredom in it. Well, it's just like boredom brilliant. But actually, when I saw it, I was like, I get it instantly because, and I was having a conversation with a friend of mine a couple of days ago. Her name's Ariana.

So Ariana, if you're listening, she's a former world record holder in swimming and she won a gold medal with the USA swimming team years ago. And she was in a kind of a stage in her life where she's like, I have all these options and all these things. I'm whiteboarding my life right now and these things I want to do, but nothing feels like right. And I said to her, I go, when was the last time you just took a break? Yeah. Like you're so in your head, you're so analytical right now of the action steps and

the option and what looks good on paper and what'll look good for your resume and this and that. I was like, go take three days where you don't have your phone and just dream and just like veg out, take hikes, work out and allow yourself to dream. For me, every time I do that, the most powerful ideas open up for me about where I'm supposed to be heading. Do you do that regularly? I do it regularly in shorter spurts. A year and a half ago, maybe it was two years ago, before this first book came out, I went to Hawaii.

I went to the island of Kauai for four days and I left. My team said, you need to leave your phone here. I was like, I'm going to take it with me and leave it in the hotel. They were like, no, you should leave it here.

And I was like, did you really? I left my phone here. No computer,, I'm going to take it with me and leave it in the hotel. They were like, no, you should leave it here. And I was like, did you really? I left my phone here. No computer, no phone, no electronics. Right when I got off the plane, it was terrifying. Right when I got off the plane. You're like, where do I go? I didn't know where to go. I forgot which car rental. Oh my God, I lost that little piece of paper that they gave me. I forgot the car rental space. I was like asking all the car rental places like, do I have a reservation here? Do I have a reservation here? I had to ask for instructions. That's kind of hilarious.

At gas stations, I had to stop to get directions, like old school. But it was the most beautiful thing ever. I remember just sitting in the ocean, looking up and realizing I'm not about to go back to my phone in 10 minutes or worried. I could just be. And it was unbelievable the amount of peace and calm I had after those four days. So a long introduction of saying I'm super excited that this message is out because I think it's something we all need to focus on is being bored so we can have these brilliant ideas come to us. I think it's really interesting also that like, first of all, that wouldn't have been the case just a decade ago that somebody would have had to been like leave this piece of metal behind in another state so

that you can accomplish what you need to get done in your life that's insane also it's super weird to me that like and this is what i've been sort of talking about is that we have to talk about things that like as a parent i'm finding this especially like talk about things that we used to just take for granted as human beings, like eye contact, boredom, all these things that are now like sort of being taken out of our lives. But we're realizing, oh, no, no, wait, actually, we're having wonderful eye contact right now. We are being bored brings us actually what I now understand scientifically does something very special in our brains. And because we have so many alternative ways of reaching out into the world because of our gadgets, because of information, which are all wonderful. But we now need to remember some of the more human stuff that has been around for a millennia that actually we want to hold on to. Yeah.

So what's the science behind this then? Okay. I'm curious. Okay. we want to hold on to. Yeah. So what's the science behind this then? Okay. I'm curious.

Okay. So this all started because I had my own sort of freak out several years ago where I was sitting down, I'm a podcast host and I was like, okay,

the podcast is doing well, but I really want to kill it and type A person that I am. Let's go. Exactly. Me and Ariana. Dominate. Exactly.

Sat down. No sleep. Got to figure this out. And like, there was kind of nothing there. And for me, it was different than writer's block because I've had that before where you're like, okay, I'm waiting for the muse. I can feel it's all bubbling up. I just can't get it out. It wasn't like that. It was like there was sand in my head. And so it made me think back like, well, when was the last time I had like really good ideas? And it was such a cliche, Luz. It was like, oh, it was when I was staring out the window in a car ride or I'd wait in

line for coffee and like just sort of let my mind go where it was. And I was like, oh, man, now every single spare moment that I have in my day, what is it filled with? I look at my phone. I check the headlines. I tweet. I tell my husband that I'm like surviving is he surviving like it's a constant call and return call and return that's going on with me

in the world instead of me just being in the world you know while all these little moments in my day and so it made me think like well what happens in our brains when we get bored or maybe more importantly what if we never get bored ever again like Like, would that be a bad thing? We think of boredom as being great. You're not bored. That's awesome. But maybe not. So I went down this rabbit hole to understand what happens with boredom. And it turns out that when you get bored, you ignite a network in your brain called the default mode. So this is if you're folding the laundry or you're just lying on the couch or you're doing something that doesn't require your brain to specifically think how it is physically moving or you're not

focused on something. So the default mode activates and that is actually where you do your most original thinking. You do problem solving and you do something that I had never heard of called autobiographical planning. This is when you look back at your life, you take note of the highs and the lows, you build a personal narrative, your story, and then you look forward. You do something that psychologists call perspective bias. You look into the future, you figure out your goals like your friend Ariana needed to do, and then you figure out the steps that you need to take to actually reach those goals. So like super important stuff that you cannot be doing if you can't tap

that brainpower if you're constantly tapping your screens. Constantly tapping your screens. But what about also constantly in motion with something? If you're just constantly busy, are you able to do that as well? Even if you're not on your screen, you're just like running around doing this, this, this. No, that requires active focus, right? It has to be something that comes, you know, that you, I think jogging is a great example, one foot in front of the other. I get my best ideas when I'm running. Do you listen to podcasts or music or do you? I can, both.

Or sometimes I do nothing. That's the key, right? Usually, if I'm on the treadmill, I'll listen to a podcast and I feel like I gotta run forever. Yeah. But if I'm outside, I never listen to anything. And I feel like I want to run back fast almost every time because I have an idea that I want to go execute on. And I get great ideas when I'm running. I mean, because of this research, I changed what I listen to when I run.

I used to always think of it as like perfect time to listen to other people's podcasts. And, you know, look, listen to podcasts. Obviously, you and I are fans of podcasts. Keep listening to my podcast when you work out. But now when I jog, I don't listen to anything and the first 10 minutes are the worst oh my god it's like because it's exhausting it's hard it's challenging you're like my brain can't settle down and my legs hurt and I keep thinking this sucks this sucks this sucks and then suddenly and around like a mile and a half something clicks over for

me where I start to forget that I'm running and I I get a little obsessive about something I'm thinking about and I start to work at it and like chip away at it and that is usually when the good stuff comes I have to wait for it though and I think that's the key here is like you're our gadgets can't give us more minutes in the day we still need to have the patience to get to the great ideas because otherwise we're just having a lot of mediocre ones that we're like posting and tweeting and Instagramming about. That's it.

So what's your practice now? Do you set aside time to be bored every day or to have, a friend of mine calls this strategic around. Oh, yeah, exactly. Beeping that out. Strategic messing around where he's like, my greatest idea. He told me this about eight years ago. He goes, so many people aren't taking time strategically to mess around, to mess off,

to goof off. So with him on that. They're so in action or constantly creating, creating, creating that they're not allowing themselves to dream or see, is this working? Is this not working for me? Am I recovering? You know, things like that. That's really, I mean.

He gets his best ideas when he does that. He'll just spend like three hours where he's like, we're just going to goof off right now. Yeah. We're just going to relax, kind of like play around, do whatever we want to do, and then things open up. And I think, so for me personally, I find it extremely hard, which is why it's so hard.

You have a kid. I wrote a book about it. Yeah. I have two kids. Two kids. How old are they? They're 10 and 7. Oh my gosh.

And I have a reporter, politics reporter husband who's, you know. And you live in New York City. And I live in New York City. And like all of it, it's super, super hard. But I think for me, again, as a type A person, to understand that actually that goofing off stuff or the spacing out or when you think you're being kind of lazy, but actually your brain is doing something, that is actually what being productive truly is. It is working smarter, not harder. And I think that's what we all aspire to, right? but actually your brain is doing something that is actually what being productive truly is it is working smarter not harder and i think that's what we all aspire to right like why be running around in a million different places at once when like if you just give yourself some time to refresh

rethink renew what you're what you're all about and then that can be that can set you on a path that is so much more clear than, than I think, you know, for me, it's like, I think we're confusing productivity with reactivity. Like we think that because we have the opportunity constantly to let our, you know, partner, romantic partner, or our coworkers, or, you know, let's shoot a slack. Like you guys, okay. Like we think that that's being productive and reactive and present, but actually I think it's taking us away

from the harder, deeper work that we need to do. What do we need to do? Well, this is where, and I've been saying this on the road because I have a lot of, I've been on book tours, you are about to embark on, and lots of young people in the audience.

And I kind of, I look them in the eye. I'm like, here's the thing. Our country right now is facing economic disparity, racial division, environmental problems. These are not easy fixes. So like updating your, you know, feeds constantly isn't going to solve the problem. It makes me say that like collectively, I think what we need to do is rethink how we are using technology right now, making sure that when we do pick it up, it's not because it's a physical reflex, but because it's improving our lives, turning them back into the tools that they are meant to be as opposed to the taskmasters that they have really become. Because God, do we have some problems we need to solve? And boy, do we need some original thinking to solve it. There was a survey of 1,500 CEOs that IBM did, and they asked them, what is the number one leadership competency that you are looking for

in your executives and workers? And it was creativity. I mean, I think that that makes sense. The robots are going to be able to do all the other jobs, but they can't be creative. That is where- Critical thinking, yeah. Precisely. Wow. And so how is your daily practice now with this? How do you do it with two kids on the road? Yeah. I mean, obviously it probably comes in phases where you're like, okay, now it's go time. And I call it the playoffs where it's like, I'm in playoff mode right now. I'm like gearing up for the playoffs and the championship. So it's like, you're not going to have much time to relax. Right.

But how do you do this throughout the year? Do you take breaks? I'm kinder to myself. I think I say to myself like it used to be that I was like, just push through. Keep going. You got this. And I'm like, no, you don't got this.

If you need to say to your husband like, dude, I need two hours off tomorrow and I'm going to lie on the bed and stare at the wall seriously that is what I want to do with my time now yeah I mean it's it's the dumbest little tweaks I think to your behavior that can make a difference so for me I used to think of my subway ride home as my chance to respond to all the emails that I didn't get to during the day like perfect productive period but then I realized like I would get home with my kids and it was like transitioning from being working quick person thinking to being like thoughtful present mother

was like not, so now I couldn't do it. I was kind of like, let's get homework done. Come on, come on. Instead of, you know, like, all right, mommy, take a deep breath and like say hello. So now I think of the subway ride home for me as like spacing out, kind of like let's digest what happened during the day. Let's think about it.

Let's like let your brain work at it a little bit. And then let's have that moment of transition into another part of your life where you, you know, you're not the same person at home as you are at work. I mean, I think, you know, Facebook wants you to be all the same person in all the places and we're not, we'd have different roles that we play in all of these places. And so for me, it's about giving myself that transition period, like, like a warmup, I guess it would be in some ways. Or stretch, cool down. Yes, exactly. Exactly. That's right. And I find that when I do give myself that time,

there's less waking up in the middle of the night thinking about something. You know, that 4 a.m. like where you just wake up thinking about a problem. And I think it's because for a lot of us, we don't give ourselves time during the day to actually process what has happened in our lives. So true, so true.

You know, a lot of people who listen to my show are constantly asking, how do I find my vision? And how do I find like my purpose? And how do I find these things? And I always tell people like, you need to go in nature without your device and just be. Yes. Like have a peaceful warrior moment. I don't know if you've read the book or watched the movie. Yeah. And I, so you just need to go and you go and like the guy just sits on a car for like a day or whatever. Yeah. Just like starts dreaming. Totally, I'm with you.

Like you've got to go into nature, allow your mind to relax. Don't just be like responsive like you said to everything. Have you heard about this new, like I don't think it's new, but like they call it forest bathing in Japan. Sounds amazing.

What is it? Literally, I think going into the forest and letting it bathe you, which is sort of beautiful, right? But when is the last time someone did this? Like when's the last time someone went camping? Right. You know, I love, you know,

having a nice bed and things like that, but I will go to the ocean and just lay for like four or five hours and just let the sand heal my mind. You know what I mean? And just like swim in the waves for 30 minutes and just goof off. And for me, it feels so refreshing to just get away from something in mother nature

and allow it to heal me. And I think people are looking for proof and permission that they should be doing that. So you have the science, right? You have the data. Tell me more about that. So the book is actually based on an experiment that I did with my listeners in 2015. So I had this sort of moment where I was like, oh, crap. I think that actually my gadgets are the problem. They've helped me be a professional working mother. But I think they also might be like destroying like my potential essentially. Your soul.

Yeah, exactly. So I reached out to my audience and I was like, are you guys like feeling like maybe you want to rethink your habits here? Like, are you kind of feeling? And they were like, yes. So within 48 hours,

20,000 people signed up to do a week of, like little, every day we did a little behavior tweak. Kind of like the happiness project. Kind of like the happiness project, Kind of like the happiness project, but on a community scale. Oh, cool. And so the idea was that every day for one week,

they woke up to a mini podcast that explained the science and some of the design behind the technology and why we feel like our attention is being hijacked from us. And then a little behavior tweak to try. And so I had these 20,000 people who then reported back with their data because we partnered with some apps that helped us measure how much time we were spending on our phones, how many times a day we were picking them up. And then I got all their stories back.

And so, first of all, it was incredibly effective. That is what we heard from people. We heard from people who finished, finally finished their thesis or came up with a way to solve their startup problem idea that they were having or solve a conflict at work, or even just like really small, minor things like how to help their kid make a friend or, you know, homework isn't working out. How are you going to do this? So all sorts of like from the very, you know, from making't working out. How are you going to do this? So all sorts of, like from the very, you know, from making a delicious soup, I'm going to call that creativity. It is creativity. It's on a small scale, but it's lovely. Two huge things where one woman in Wisconsin, she did the project while she was breaking up with her boyfriend and she ended up,

they owned a farm together. She bought him out. She decided to rename the farm Make Time Farm and now every month she opens it up to the community one day a month and asks them to come to drop their gadgets in a basket and just come and they can do whatever they want. You can take a nap, pick an apple, bring your sewing machine, whatever. Read a book, whatever.

Right. Play with some chickens. Exactly. Just something. something that takes you out of the daily i gotta what am i doing next what's next what's next so the book is is looks at we have the data from the original project we have people's stories from the original project plus i went into much uh greater depth into some of the research as to why things worked like the first time around this i'll be totally honest I was making it up as I was going

around. I was like, I don't know, let's try this. But in this, I could look back and be like, okay, this one actually really worked. Let's tweak it slightly so that we get better results. So like, for example, one of the things we ask you to do is delete an app on your phone that is driving you bananas. Do you know which one it would be for you? It's the one that's always like, hello, don't you need to check me?

Is it the one you use a lot or you don't use a lot? It's the one that you feel kind of yucky when you use it. Snapchat? Okay, so for one day. It's like I pretty much stopped using it. Okay, so you take it off your phone just to let go of the sensation of having it calling out to you all day long. Don't quit the platform.

Like you need to check it. Right. So I think social media was definitely number one. Number two was like some games. Oh, yeah. I don't play games. I play two dots. You do?

Like Angry Bird or whatever? Two dots. Two dots. What is that? Like some weird like Tetris-y thing or something? Exactly. But like artisanal Brooklyn style. It's really beautiful.

Oh, nice. Yeah. Anyway, that's my bag. And other people, it was news, like the constant checking of the headlines, because that becomes its own sort of habit that you're constantly into. So we said to people like, just take it off your phone for the day and see what it feels like. Just see what it feels like. And some people were like, I can't believe how many times a day my finger gravitated towards checking it.

I want to know, is there an app that can tell you how many times you open and close your phone? Yes. Like any app? Yeah. Is that what you tracked? That's what we did. So Moment is the app for iOS.

Break Free is the one for Apple. I'm terrified. It's quite extraordinary. How many times? Because I'll just open for a second or two and then close it. And the funny thing is- It's probably hundreds of times a day. Well, that's step number one in the book.

What we ask you to do is observe yourself. Oh my gosh. And here's the problem though, right? That's good. I thought, I was like, I probably check my phone like 30 times a day. No, it's probably 200, right? Yeah. What was it for you?

It was 90, between 90 and 100 a day. And I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen the raw data. Oh, my God. And it tells you how much time you're on there, right? Oh, my gosh. And for me, time wasn't as much. But I realized I get into an elevator, I check my phone. I get out of an elevator, I check my phone.

I walk through the door, I check my phone. It's like smokers, they wake up, they light a cigarette. It's a linked habit that we see. And I think a lot of us have found like, oh my God, I don't even know what I'm looking for. I'm just checking, checking, checking. Just because I don't want to be bored. Exactly. I'm scared of being like peaceful with my thoughts or whatever, just by myself.

Or not peaceful. Or just looking at someone in the eyes in the elevator. It's like I've got to check something and respond. Right. So interesting. I would love to like gamify that for myself and see how many times I do it for the first week and then be like, okay, how can I get it under, you know, one fourth of this? So I'm really mindful every time I open my phone that it's intentional as opposed to reactive, right? Exactly. Like that

you're like, and at this very moment, is what I'm about to do going to improve my life? Is it something I need to do right now? I mean, I think that it's just taking a second. And of course, the problem is, though, that the business models of these platforms and apps is based on time with your eyeballs. And so that's not what they want. Their goal is to get you to check as many times a day as possible. And be addicted.

Essentially. Yeah. addicted. Essentially. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and I don't think it's a malicious thing. Like, let's... No, but they're trying to make money. They're trying to make money. They're not like, get off our app.

They're like, come back. Exactly. And I think, you know, that all sounds very nice when you're like, oh, we've built a user experience that people enjoy and that's our job. That sounds much more benign than you have hijacked my attention and you are constantly

addicting me to your platform to the point where I can't put you down. Yeah. I mean, listen, it's our responsibility to be on something or not be on it, but yeah. I mean, I have to say though, I think I used to think that and I've changed my mind. Really? I have because I think to be a person in the world today, how do you find a job? You need to be on LinkedIn. How do you stay in touch with your family members? You're on Facebook.

Facebook, yeah, Instagram, yeah. And I think that's where we're seeing the change in terms of the responsibility that these tech companies have to us as individuals and as communities. as individuals and as communities. I mean, I think this past election has been fascinating to see sort of what influence these platforms have and the way that everything is being driven through them. We're getting all of our information and our connections and we are emoting through them.

And I think they're no longer just like, oh, you know, something fun you do. No, they are the very means that we are... We spend our lives... I think they're no longer just like, oh, something fun you do. No, they are the very means that we are. We spend our lives on. Exactly. And so the question is, are they going to make us a more cohesive society or a more divided society? And I think the jury, unfortunately, is out.

Yeah, it's challenging. But we also get to be self-aware and mindful of using them as well, I think. That is very true. I think we also can't be a victim to, well, these companies are manipulating our brains. Yes, they're designed to keep us attached to it. But once we're aware of that, hopefully we can create some boundaries for ourselves. Yes. And I think that's right.

And I think that line is going to be drawn into a different place for every single person. You know, it is my phone doesn't look like your phone. It is as personalized as the technology is these days. That's as personalized as the solution for each of us has to be. Like we each need to figure out. Like some people I talk to, they're like, I don't know what your problem is. Just put down your damn phone. Right.

And I'm like, okay, so that's cool for you but look around somebody you know whether it is a parent or child or friend or co-worker is struggling is feeling like this is driving them in a way that they maybe don't feel great about yeah and whether that it's this like it's the tiniest feeling that people would describe to me, they're like, I just feel yucky. Like I look up and two hours are gone. And what did I do? And as one researcher put it to me, the average person will spend two years of their life on Facebook.

And if you've decided- Or how many years? Like a regular lifespan. Oh, got it. The average lifespan. Wow. Which if you've decided like, I love Facebook so much and I am having a ball on there and that is two years well spent, more power to you.

Two years. But what I'm hearing from people is that they don't like themselves when they're on there. They're not productive. They're not creating something meaningful in the world that are making an impact. Or what I hear from a lot of people is they're comparing their lives. Constantly. Yeah. The performative aspects of it. impact or they're what i hear from a lot of people is they're comparing their lives constantly yeah the performative aspects of it i mean i think the key though is it's not a digital detox i don't really believe in that i don't think it's on or off because life is not a binary right like we we

have to figure out how to live with these things and that comes back to your like personal choice question which is like okay so how are you going to live with it so that it improves your life? How are you going to make it work for you as opposed to feel like you're constantly struggling with it? What's your biggest challenge as a mom right now? I've reached a new phase. It's a very new one. It's homework. Oh man. At 10 years old, they have homework? Tons of it seven year old has homework oh no um and i you know i think i wonder if you've been hearing this a lot from

people like you know the the parent-child relationship has changed um it is not like go to go upstairs go do your homework and then i'd call up for dinner time it's you're doing it with them yes oh. Oh my gosh. And it's Common Core. I mean, that's probably great for kids to have the engagement of their parents there around her. You're like, no. I don't know. You're saying it's like enabling them to like, hey, I'm going to support you every day and

you're going to expect this and I can't hold you throughout the rest of your life. My husband is like, are we going to be tying their shoelaces when they're juniors in college? I'm like, I don't know. There's seven and ten though. I mean, I didn't know what I was doing with homework at 15. Right? Well, that brings us back. Maybe they just need a tutor or who knows. Maybe. That might be the answer.

But what I am gearing up for is the smartphone thing. They don't have it yet. Not yet. That's like 11, 12. Yes, exactly, exactly. And like what you just said is really funny. You're like at 15 and you didn't know what you're doing. Imagine being 15, not know what you're doing, but then being given this powerful tool

that has the computing power in it that like the space program had in the 60s. Do you know what I mean? And we're asking these kids to self-regulate. No chance. When we, like I'm a Gen Xer and asking these kids to self-regulate uh when we like I'm a gen xer and like I can't self-regulate how could like some like you know sweet 13 year old possibly figure it out they have ipads right now we do have an ipad and it's a constant struggle they want to be yeah it's it's I mean I I just realized I am so not a special snowflake I might know all

of these things but my struggle is just like every other parent's where it's the constant negotiation. But I am trying really hard. Do you know Jane McGonigal? You should have her on your show. She's amazing. She's a game designer and a futurist at the Institute for the Future in Palo Alto. Wow. And she was talking to me about ways that she is looking at how parents can talk to their kids about their screen time and their iPad time so that it's less sort of, you know, constant fighting.

So her whole thing is, and I did try it with my kid. So he went to a sleepover, his first sleepover, and he was playing video games, of course, all night. With the kids. With the other kids, yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. And that's fine. Yeah. And he came with the kids, with the other kids. Yeah, totally.

And that's fine. And he came home and I was like, so this was based on Jane's sort of coaching of me, which is that you instead of being like, oh, my God, get off the screen, get off the iPad. You're like you're wasting your life, which shows like very little respect for something that the kid obviously enjoys. Exactly. So how do you sort of broach that? So I was like, she was like she was like say like what did you learn so i was like what did you learn and he's like we killed the aliens and i was like okay

nope gotta keep going here i was like no what what she's her key is to ask questions that tie what they're doing on the screen to real life so i was like what did you have to do to kill the aliens digging in deeper and then finally he got to the point where like we were on teams and we had to focus really hard and like that's cool exactly so he got to this point where he started to um look analytically at what he was doing it showed me that i started to care about what he was doing too he saw that my eyes lit up a little bit we had a moment and then the next time i was like let's put the ipad away like it wasn't a you know a struggle or a fight it wasn't like it was like okay cool that's cool yeah it's funny because i played video games from like five to maybe nine we had nintendo

and that was like when nintendo came out in the early 80s or mid 80s or whatever was so it was the big thing and i was pretty much addicted for like three four hours a day for a couple of years right did your parents have they were regulating it yeah they were constantly like it was the thing but I got really good like I got really good at different games and I learned how to be disciplined and focused and how to when I would die whatever Mario or something when I would die I I would just learn how to adjust. And I constantly learned from the games. And then I kind of just got over playing games at like 10, 11. And I started focusing always on sports.

Because you were good at sports. Well, I was just like, I wanted to be outside. I wanted to do something and just sit by myself all day. And so I started playing sports more and became obsessed with sports. And I feel like I learned a lot from video games and applied it to sports now with some kids just keep playing video games until they're 30 or whatever right there's like the 40 yeah you're like my husband you know i can't he hates them so that's like but there's a lot of guys that just keep playing and they don't apply it to their life and i think that's when it becomes like a challenge of it's just taking over your life and yeah using it for good or anything.

And I think that's interesting too because now what's different than when you were playing is that- You can be on teams with like headsets around the world, which is cool. Yeah, which is kind of cool. Like I did meet this one gamer. She plays for the varsity. You know it's a thing now, right? There's like leagues and stuff. Yeah, there's leagues and stuff.

She has a scholarship like on a varsity video you mean out of school oh yeah no way oh yeah yeah yeah I thought you meant like professional leagues no no

she has a scholarship shut up at a college at a college in Chicago no way yeah where she plays you know online

oh god something World of Warcraft that's what it is yes and so she Halo or whatever so she has to go to practice.

Shut up. Yeah. Just like you would have had to two hours a day. Oh my gosh. And then they have. She gets schooling for free. I'm surprised they even go to class. Right.

Because you can just play video games all day to get better. Well, I mean, for some of them, it's just like, you know, why do you play sports so that you get, you know. The reason I went to school was to play sports. But then you also got a degree, which is like. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah which yeah yeah yeah i mean it took me a while yeah they want both right yeah so like she i didn't care about the degree no i just wanted to play sports so for some of them i think it's like you know how am i gonna pay for this wow i'm gonna get really freaking good at video games wow and that'll help me pay for it so what does she learn from this or what's the uh she well it was

interesting she's an unusual case in that um she was thinking about transitioning to being a man. And so for her, like as a kid who didn't fit in socially in high school, video games were a place where she found people who didn't care what gender she was. They didn't care. Yeah, used to voice. Exactly. And she felt like those were her real friends. That was her real life.

I worry that somebody like that is going to have a hard time if and when they do have to work in an office where you actually have to like sit around a table and have a meeting and things like that but you know a lot of work is online now these days and they won't but so you know for her it's like the positives were school is paid for right She's with like-minded people. Not positive part is like, God, she's inside a lot. All day. All day. Staring at a computer.

Staring at a computer. Or a TV or whatever. Yeah. And I was like, do you guys have to do like, I don't know, sprints? Just to stop your butts from atrophying? I know. You know what I mean? She was like, no.

They went for pizza. That's notrophy. You know what I mean? She was like, no, like she and they went for pizza. That's not healthy. I know. Like physical health, I think is underestimated as well. So let's get back into more about this because is there any more science or data that just continues to prove that either taking 10 minutes a day and what are the activities that actually help with this? Yeah. Non-active, active activities, I i guess is it meditation a part of this meditation is actually

something different which is interesting meditation ignites different parts of your brain different than the default mode um in the default mode what's interesting so mind wandering essentially we're thinking of boredom as a gateway to daydreaming daydreaming yeah and i did have you know my listeners at first were like why did you have to use the of boredom as a gateway to daydreaming. And I did have, you know, my listeners at first were like, why did you have to use the word boredom? It's super like negative. I don't want to be bored. Couldn't you use like daydreaming?

That's such a nicer word. And I was like, no, because I think the point is it is uncomfortable when you get bored. It is. You might start. Because you feel like you should be doing something or you feel like. Maybe you start thinking about something that's been bothering you and you feel uncomfortable and you don't want to deal with it. Like I had one woman who was like, she sat in the Whole Foods parking lot and like just

cried her eyes out for 20 minutes. And she's like, last week I would have spent those 20 minutes like looking at Instagram. But she's like, I needed to deal with some shit in my life. Right. And like, yeah, we got to deal with some stuff in our lives. And I had one woman, she was a girl at one of my bookstore talks. She was like, I don't think I want to do this because when I'm not on social media, I'm really lonely. And I was like, yeah, being a human, you will be lonely.

Yeah, yeah. But I was like, you know, you need to spend some time with yourself because at the end of the day you and you are going to be together for the rest of your lives you know and you should be good company to yourself essentially um but I was thinking about some of the other science I think the Boston consulting group example that I use might be uh you know just a good way that we can look at it that it's not just a personal thing, but that it has to be sort of a cultural thing. With teams as well? In the workplace and with teams, for sure. So how, if you're a team or in the workplace or a sports team or whatever. So burnout, burnout is the problem here, right? So Boston Consulting Group, they did an experiment as part of a study

at Harvard where they made sure that their teams, the Boston Consulting Group was dealing with like huge burnout, that people were like within two years they were quitting. They just couldn't, you know. It was like 80-hour weeks. Exactly. On call all the time, all of it. And, you know, of course, retention is a real problem like in terms of spending money for a corporation,

you know, having to rehire people. It's a lot. It's a lot of time and money. So they were like, how can we increase retention? And what they tried to do was they purposefully had time off to the point where you were told these days you are not to answer your phone. You are to do something like cooking or exercising or spending time with your family. Your colleagues have your back.

They are on it and they rotate it. They just kept it up so that there was purposeful, scheduled time off and the retention rates skyrocketed and they did better work. And so when people say to me, they're like, this is all well well and good i'll totally do this in my personal life but how do i convince my boss i think that we need to have a huge culture shift that goes on sure um the other thing i think if your if your company is already balanced with your workflow maybe you don't need it if you're working like normal hours or there's some time off here and there yeah if people are stressed and anxious and exhausted, then definitely need to take a look. I'm assuming, right?

Well, I don't hear tons of people who are feeling like there are boundaries at work. And I think things like Slack, which is, you know, my team uses it. It's great. We stopped using it, right? Did you? Yeah, we were using it.

Why? Tell me. Why did we stop, Christine? I mean, I think it was just annoying me. It was like one more place to check exhausting yeah it's just exhausting i don't know and it wasn't really productive right yeah for us it wasn't really productive so i think that i mean that's what i'm hearing from people i went to give a talk at google and i was like you know i i'm pretty tough on the tech companies in this book and i was kind of expecting blowback but you know what they wanted to talk

about they're like um i just i'm having trouble concentrating on my work because of all the constant pings. Constant pings. Constant. And I'm worried about burnout. Oh my gosh. That is what they want. I was like, oh, software engineers, they're just like us. Yeah. So I think for me, one of the challenges in the book is to take a fakecation, which is to, we all use the out of office responder when we go on vacation, or we should be, if you're not, you should. But what I'm saying is do it once a day for one hour and say, you know, uh, it can be like, I, whatever you need to say, if your boss isn't going to be cool, say you have a stomach virus. Or if like, if you're trying to change the culture where you work, say like, I'm taking an hour to dive or two hours to

dive into this report and doing deep work, please. And not constantly checking. Exactly. Like, oh, I'll get back to you when I'm back. You never really get in the flow if you're always getting notifications. Totally. And we know now like what happens. The average person, one researcher told me, switches tasks at work 566 times a day. Oh, my gosh. We used to switch our attention. This is a wonderful professor at UC Irvine, Gloria Mark. She said, we used to switch tasks on average every three minutes. That was 10 years ago.

Now we switch every 45 seconds on average. So people aren't just present focusing on one task. Exactly. And maybe that's writing a report. Maybe it's doing an interview. on average. So people aren't just present focusing on one task. Exactly. And, and to, you know, and maybe that's writing a report, maybe it's doing an interview, maybe it's whatever your work is. Um, it's important to give it that depth that it requires. So, and I think, I think the key though is, you know, people are like, well, I can totally do that for myself. It's the people around me. So how do we reset the expectations of the people around me?

Like my husband, he's like, dude, I texted you. Why didn't you get back to me? And I want to be like, dude, because I was in a meeting. I can't just be responding. So I think saying to people, I'm not here for the next two hours. I will get back to you when I'm back online at 4 o'clock. And then people kind of relax.

They exhale and they- Because you've set the expectation. Exactly. Yeah. Precisely. I mean, imagine like for me, Google Docs, like it's a wonderful thing. Love it.

Right? Like does your podcast run on Google Docs? Yeah, yeah. Everything. Exactly. It's the best. But it kills me when I'm working on a script and I see my producer pop up in it

and I have to be like, could you please get out right now? Let me focus. Right. What if there was a button that was like Manusha's deep at work, she'll be, you know, we'll, we'll let you know when the document is open again, or just some gentle communicative way of resetting the sort of boundaries that there really need to be at work. What's been the response of this type of information so far with when people are, you talked about this a couple of years ago, but since this is coming more and more for you well for me it was like i put out the call like like a month ago i was like anybody out there remember the original project it was insane people were like oh not only do i remember it like this guy

liam from los angeles he took every social media platform off of his phone two years ago. He never put them back on. He's probably like freedom. He's probably just like, yeah, feel relaxed. Why is everyone stressed out? Totally. Right. Exactly.

And it's not that he like quit any of those platforms. It's that when he does them, he sits down, he goes on his laptop. Or he's on his computer. Exactly. And he's like, I spent 60 minutes and I do it. I batch it. Right. Exactly. Email. It's not every two minutes. Or he's on his computer. Exactly. And he's like, I spent 60 minutes and I batch it. Right. Exactly.

Email, it's not every two minutes. Right. It's all at one time. All at one time. And he feels, you know, there's not, it's like the shameful thing of the constant checking and like the, you know. Got to get back to people. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so now he sits down and I'll do Facebook for 20 minutes and that's fine. And then he shuts it off and goes on with whatever else he has to do. So to hear people who sort of made very small behavior tweaks is very wonderful. minutes and that's fine and then he shuts it off and goes on with whatever else he has to do so to hear people who sort of made very small behavior tweaks is very uh wonderful i would say the most gratifying though is really um the teachers who are using it in their classrooms um there's lots of kids use like their phones in class now all the time right like they do public schools they have they're just like can't stop the kids right using it exactly and even if it's not the phones or as one teacher said to me he was like after we did the project in the classroom i was like what did

you see like were people like twitching like what happened he's like he said actually no what he saw was more eye contact between the kids because what they realized was not only was it their smartphones but they have ipads in the classroom. They have smart boards in the classroom. Computers. Right. Everything is mitigated via a screen. So when they took them away and they started to have

some of the nonverbal communication that, as we know, is so important in terms of empathy and understanding people around you. Doesn't relate ship trust, everything. Completely. Wow. Yeah.

So I think, you know, to me, this is the next chapter in media and digital literacy. It's not just teaching kids to code, but teaching them how this stuff has been built, why the business models are the way they are and what that effect has on their everyday behavior and how it can be a problem if you are not conscious of it or educated about it. Another UCLA professor is doing a long study into teenagers who use social media just to like hang out in social media versus if they use it to like as a thing to set up like, you know, getting together with friends, like as a tool to set up stuff.

And the kids who just spend a ton of time on social media were less good at thinking about what their future goals were and less good at coming up with strategies for solving their neighborhood's problems. I mean, so we're seeing the direct potentially long-term correlation with some of, I mean, is it causal? We don't know. Is there a correlation? It looks like it. And I think, you know, let's just talk about it. Let's not. I think we've got to test it for ourselves too. Yes.

I don't know if you have like an ideal format for people where it's like, okay, 60 minutes a day, you're supposed to be bored. Or like once a month, you take two days off or whatever it is and you just do nothing. What are your digital habits? I think for me, it's like I'm constantly just aware of how I'm feeling. And if I feel like I've been disconnected or if I feel like I've been constantly reactive, I just put it down and I focus on disconnecting. For me, I like to watch movies, which is still like looking at a screen, but allows my mind to relax and I'm not checking anything. And I kind of daydream in that movie watching. It's very relaxing for me and it inspires me.

It just makes me feel more too. Well, because there's a narrative and it's linear, right? There's story, there's emotion. I'll cry during movies. I'll just feel and it brings me back to reconnecting to my life. Do you think that has to,

like the ability to sort of observe what you're feeling, I think that's underestimated how hard that is for some people do you think that comes back to being an athlete like being in touch with your body maybe i think also meditation helps me just to like really focus on my vision for my life and my dreams and eliminate the stresses and anxieties that may be surrounding my life in those moments. So I just try to really work out to release emotion and to feel good. I try to meditate to do the same thing. And then I try to find time when I can during the day to just veg.

Uh-huh. You do? Yeah, of course. I'm just like on the couch vegging. Sometimes there'll be a documentary on and other times I just won't have anything on. I'll just sit there and veg with my girlfriend or whatever. Just like let's connect and just veg out. Chill.

And not respond to something and not like check our email and just veg. But I think going to the beach too and just like being in some type of nature, even though there's people around, but just being out in the outside. When I lived in New York, I loved just walking to the park and people watching yeah it's good just taking like two hours madison square park central

park and just like i mean washington square park was my favorite place just like sit and listen to music and like watch people and just have conversations the guys playing chess on the corner yeah totally and i like to just create my own experiments with people in public what do you mean that sounds exciting. Yeah. No. When I lived in New York especially, I did different projects. When I first moved there, I was single.

And I was like, I know nothing about this city. I don't know anyone. So every day, I'm going to buy a red rose and I'm going to give it to a girl. Any type of girl. It wasn't like a girl I was attracted to. Just a girl or a woman or a young girl, whatever. I just wanted to see what would happen. And? It was fascinating. I did it for a few weeks.

Did they think you were insane or that they were being filmed? Some women were like, yeah. I mean, some women were just like, blew me off, wouldn't even look at me. I just like, hey, I wanted to give you a rose. I mean, New Yorkers, you know, yeah. Yeah. And other people were like, wow, that was so thoughtful. Like, thank you. Why? And I just said I just wanted to have conversations with people and acknowledge people for how they show up in the world.

And I would just try to find people I felt like could use a rose. And so I would just have conversations. That's super weird, dude. I kind of love it, though. Yeah. Very weird and different. But I try to do that to, one, get out of my comfort zone and just experiment with stuff and just be like, oh, let's see what happens.

Modern day Romeo. Right, exactly. It only lasted for a couple of weeks. And then I started dating someone. Did you meet them via the experiment? I met someone that I gave the rose to and kind of like, wasn't really dating, but was like, you know, hanging out and having fun. And then it didn't work out.

But it was a fun experiment. And I was like, okay, I've met people and I was doing other stuff. It made you get out in the world. It made me get out in the world and not be on my phone and just connect. Well, I think what is funny about it is there's such a specific goal that you had to – but every day you could reach your goal. It was very specific. One rose, one person.

That's it. Yeah, and that's way more attainable than like, make sure you meet people in New York because that's hard. But setting small little behaviors, maybe not so small. Or write a poem for someone or whatever. That might be a little weird too. But it's like sing a song for someone. Do something that's different.

They're going to remember it. These people like would smile and they would remember it, you know? So I had a funny thing somebody said to me the other day, this woman, a younger woman I work with came in and she was like, Oh my God, I just saw someone that I'm friends with on Instagram, but I don't really know her, but I know everything about her life because of Instagram, but I don't know whether it's appropriate for me to say hello to her in real life. It was like she was literally living in two separate worlds and the crossover was gone. And I didn't know how to feel about it. I was like, well, on the one hand, she seems very real to you.

So you're having this relationship with her online. I don't want to diminish that. If that feels real to you, then seems very real to you maybe you know so you're having this relationship with her online i don't want to diminish that if that feels real to you then that feels real to you on the other hand that is so messed up that like you couldn't even go up to them and be like hey so and so you and i are buds on the thing and maybe we could be real life buds right but that would be seen and she was like oh no no no no no like that would be seen, and she was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like that would be seen as inappropriate or weird. Yeah, like not. Why do you talk to them online? Yeah, why do you connect? Well, it's like they're two different planets.

It's weird. Right? It's like there's a different planet, like two different planets. I don't know. I'm trying to live online in a way that it works with my IRL life too. Like, you know, like, but that's me.

IRL. Yeah, right, IRL life. I don't know. That's redundant, but yeah. Do you talk in tone? Text is, yeah. Like, you know, like, but that's me. So yeah, right. IRL life. I don't know. That's redundant. Right. Exactly. What do you wish more people would ask you that they don't ask?

Oh gosh. That's a really good question. Whether about this topic or about anything in general. What do I wish they would ask me? Hmm. I think it would be something gendered about women. What do you mean? It's been a really interesting experience to,

when I started doing my podcast, it was really more about the tech economy. And my background was as a hardcore journalist, the BBC with Reuters. And I very quickly learned that, well, maybe not quick enough, that what my audience didn't need was another place to understand what sort of 10x returns there were, what upgrades there were. But what they wanted was a place to understand how to deal, like a guide to dealing with this accelerating world how technology was changing um how they found romance yeah you're rather old-fashioned i'm afraid um or how whatever work they did um and so i that i think is seen as a very sort of female approach to covering

technology and i had some guy ask me the other day at a book tour, he's like, I don't get it. You're, you're kind of like about like wellness, but then you also know a lot about like encryption and privacy. And as my producer said, like, yeah, you can wear yoga pants and care about encryption too. Like that it doesn't, like, it's not just about the techies anymore that we're I don't think we're even going to use the word tech or digital in like 10 years. It's just life now. And so we have to apply some of the things that you talk about on your podcast all the

time to how we use the technology, especially with AI and VR and all of these other two consonant or letter things that are coming that are going to change our lives. And where I do think at a crossroads right now where we have to decide where we want the humans to continue to make the decisions and what we are okay with handing over to the algorithms. And it's hard and it's complicated, but it matters in ways that it's not just about the latest startup or whatever. It's really affecting people's lives. Something that I love about doing an in-person podcast is it forces me to connect. Yes. There's a reason why I don't do sitting next to someone.

Oh, really? Like two chairs side by side because I feel like you still leave eye contact. Sitting across from you yeah we look at each other in the eyes probably 70% of the time yes and I feel like concerning Lewis I'm not used to it yeah I mean yeah and I feel like that's when you can tap into the greatest information yeah and that's when you can tap into the heart the most as opposed to just the analytical mind kind of rambling off like looking out into out into space and then coming back to someone. Well,

it's been interesting to see when your eyes light up, like certain things I say, you're like, Hmm, that one was good. Right. Right. Other ones,

you're not as interested in it, but that's okay. Like, I'm like, it's important anyway. I'll say it. So it's all good. Everything's important.

There's a, there's a side conversation going on. Of course. Yeah. Of course. Um, very cool. Well,

I'm excited for this. Uh, I really am excited for course. Love it. Very cool. Well, I'm excited for this. I really am excited for people to get it. Bored and Brilliant, How Spacing Out Can Unlock Your Most Productive and Creative Self. Make sure you guys go get a copy. I've got three final questions for you. Oh, okay.

But where can they get this? Where's your website and your social media? Yeah, so ManoushZ, that is my website, manoushz.com. You can get the book wherever books are sold. I read the audio book you and I were just talking about. Yours is a shorter book than mine, so it must have taken only two days. That's exactly what it took. It took me four days.

Oh, my God. Painful. Your neck and shoulders, my Lord. And then, of course, on Kindle and multiple languages coming, which is super exciting. That's cool. The Japanese translation is super weird. It's like using smartphone with appropriate behaviors or something like that

is the translation. Very cool. And you say you're Manoush Z on social media, right? Okay, cool. So make sure you guys go get a copy of the book. We'll have it all linked up.

Come say hi on Twitter or wherever. Where do you hang out most? Mostly Twitter, actually. I know the trolls will come and get me soon enough. But for now, I'm still there. I'll be there with you. And then your podcast, Note to Self, that's everywhere.

Yeah. iTunes. Are you on Spotify yet or no? Yes, we are. I'm part of WNYC Studios. That's cool. Very cool. Awesome.

We have a lot of fun. And you do it once a week, right? I do it once a week. We might change that. I don't know. We're thinking. Well, I want to do it once a week. We might change that. I don't know. We're thinking. Well, I want to do more big projects like this. That's what you should do.

Yeah. Once a week with like a micro project every week too. Yeah, that'd be cool, right? Yeah, it would be, I think. Final few questions. This is called The Three Truths. Okay. So if you, this is your last day many years from now.

Yeah. And you've done everything you want in your life, but for whatever reason, it was all erased. All your podcasts, your books, anything you ever do for the rest of your life is gone. But you have a piece of paper and a pen that you get to write down three things you know to be true. Oh, wow. From all the experiences you've had in your life.

Yeah. All the lessons, everything. What would you say are your three truths or three lessons this is all people would have to remember what i want them to be aspirationally for the world to remember you by and this is all they would have the world to remember me by she helped like can i in the third i would say i would say the truth for others truths for others the best way to live life life or your lessons that you would share with the world. Right.

Yeah. Okay. Okay. So just because it's not scientifically proven doesn't mean that something you sense is happening to you isn't true. Can I explain why? Sure. So the reason why I say that one is because

we are only now seeing a lot of the science and research done regarding how smartphones are changing our brains. Whereas a couple of years ago, a lot of us were saying like, I feel like my brain is changing. Yet you were right. Listen to that. The science sometimes can't keep up. Okay. So that's number one. Not to say that science isn't a wonderful thing. Sure. Number two. Play the long game. I just feel like that one just keeps coming back

and biting me on the ass over and over again. Just like it's okay if it doesn't work out today or tomorrow or next week or next month. Look forward, look forward month look forward look forward look forward um yeah and and enjoy where you are right now because that's okay too um number three i'm trying to decide between compassion and sleep it's a good one don't think about yeah compassionate sleep be compassionate to yourself let yourself sleep it's okay rest is vital yeah it is it is vital it's so important yeah and if we're not recovering we're going to be like stressed out throughout the day yeah yeah

i like those i like those um i might have to change them if I ever come back. I don't know. Now that's going to stick with me, that question. That's a good thing to like, what would those answers be? That's a wonderful thing to carry with you anyway. Yeah, it's fun. Love that. Before I ask the final question, I want to acknowledge you for a moment, Manoush, for

bringing to light the thing that people are missing out on so much right now. People are missing out on the ability to be bored, to daydream, and to allow their minds to relax and not feel so reactive. I think it's probably one of the most important things right now to help our brains recover besides sleep is during the day, the things we're not doing as opposed to focusing on doing things every day. So for you working on this and really bringing it to light and sharing it with the world, it's making a massive impact. That's really nice. Thank you, Louis.

That's why I do it. Like that, like if you honestly, that one person who says to you, you changed how I think about how I want to live my life. You're like, oh, that's what it's all about. Yeah. Yeah. Final questions. What's your definition of greatness?

Oh, my definition of greatness is that it's always going to be different than your definition of greatness. Only you know. Don't let anyone else define your greatness for you. It's that moment when you feel like there's glitter sprinkled over your life it's that moment when you i know like it's different at work like at work it's like when we've really worked on a podcast and like we've mixed it really beautifully and like the timing is right and like we call it the zhuzh is just there and i just feel this like, so good, you know? Yeah, yeah.

Okay, so that's at home. And then there, you know, family stuff, there's constant balancing act going on. But that moment when like the four of us, you know, the family unit, we're all laughing at one thing. That is greatness. And we're not trying to kill each other

or somebody's not crying or mad or whatever, but we're all cracking up at the same thing. That is greatness. And we're not trying to kill each other or somebody's not crying or mad or whatever. But we're all cracking up at the same thing. That is greatness. Love it. Manish, thank you so much. So fun. I love doing this. This is great.

Great. Thank you. There you have it, my friends. The cure for boredom is curiosity. But Ellen Parr says that there is no cure for curiosity. Alan Parr says that there is no cure for curiosity. I hope you are allowing yourself to find the magic in the boredom through the creative curiosity, through the allowing your mind to wander and dream and explore as opposed to always being busy and having to do something constantly.

Take those breaks. Allow yourself to explore in the mind. I hope you guys enjoyed this one if you did make sure to share with your friends lewishouse.com slash 551 and let manoush know what you thought about this as well we'll have a bunch of different quotes tweets that you can share out with your friends over at the show notes lewishouse.com slash 551 the full video interview as well give us some love over on youtube subscribe there if you want to get videos sent to you as well and as always guys you know what time it is it's time to go out

there and do something great Outro Music