The School of Greatness - 559 Make Your Brand the Best in the World with Bozoma Saint John

Episode Date: November 6, 2017

"You have to fill that void by using an asset they will listen to. - Bozoma Saint John Ever wonder who is the mastermind behind successful campaigns by brands such as Pepsi and Beats by Dre? Well it's the same person who is looked at as the savior for Uber - Bozoma Saint John. Bozoma or Boz has lead an incredible and inspiring life. She grew up in Africa, learned to speak three languages, and has pushed through so many hardships it's absolutely amazing. Boz started her early career working for Spike Lee. She started by getting coffee, and doing everything needed around the office (including fixing the coffee machine). By chance one day she was given a script to look over, and the notes she made instantly boosted her career into an expert of branding and campaign management. She went on to lead marketing at Pepsi, which became an era of her life when she went through her toughest personal struggle. Her husband was diagnosed with cancer, and only had six months left to live...

This is episode number 559 with Bozema St. John. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. A brand for a company is like a reputation for a person. You earn reputation by trying to do

hard things well. It's by Jeff Bezos. And today we've got Bozma St. John on, who is the chief brand officer at Uber as of June, 2017. And previously she was a marketing executive at Apple Music, where she came over from Beats. And before that she was at PepsiCo, heading their music and entertainment marketing. She has been listed on Billboard Magazine's list of the top women in music, Fast Company's 100 Most Creative People, and Adweek's Most Exciting Personalities in Advertising. She was awarded Executive Woman

of the Year by Billboard Music in 2016. And I had a blast connecting with Bose here in the studio in Los Angeles. And what we covered are why she left Apple Music to head up branding at Uber, And what we covered are why she left Apple Music to head up branding at Uber, how to cultivate your intuition, the big mistakes that brands make once they are successful, the true power of marketing, and why people will forgive anything you do if you ignite their passion. This one's all about her story, how she's built massive brands, and how she's managed brands that maybe have gone through some periods of dislike in the public space. And before we dive in, I want to give a shout out to the fan of the week. This is from Blake Sales, who says, you won't regret listening to this podcast. The various topics and interviews with other respected individuals will make a difference in your life, and you will continuously want to utilize them as a resource to be more well-rounded individual. Thank you for making a difference in

so many people's lives. So Blake sales, thank you for being the review of the week. And if you guys want a chance to be shouted out on the podcast, then make sure to leave a review over on iTunes right now or on the podcast app that you're listening to and get a chance to be a shout out for the week. All right, guys, I think you're going to love this one. A powerful story, powerful conversation, and powerful human being. Give it up for the one, the only Bozema St. John. Welcome everyone back to the school of greatness podcast we have beau saint john in the house good to see you i'm very excited our mutual friend lacy connected us she was hounding me she said you got to know who this person is you got to have her on i didn't know who you were until she was

like sending me every video about you and every yeah obsessive. Yeah, she was like, no, this is my queen, right? She was like obsessed with you. I said, okay, let me start digging in deeper. And I watched some of your videos and heard more of your story and was just like, okay, yeah, we need bows in the house. So I'm excited that you're here. Congrats on everything that you've achieved

and the impact you've made and the barriers you've broken through in the business world. It's really cool. And you're originally from Ghana, right? And you lived in Ghana for a number of years. Yes, yes. My parents are from Ghana. Parents are from Ghana. I was born in the US. Born in the US, but then you moved when you were young to Ghana. Yeah, six months old. So I had no recollection of my time in the US before Ghana. So that's why I claim that I'm from Ghana, because that's where my earliest memories are. And when did you move back?

Well, there were a series of things that happened along the way. When I was five, my dad was in parliament in the government of Ghana for a president named Hila Liman who was overthrown in 1982 in a coup d'etat. And my dad was thrown into political detention. So we had to flee the country.

My mom, who was pregnant with my youngest daughter, youngest daughter, my youngest sister, and my two other younger sisters. So she had three young children, six and under, and pregnant. How old were you? I was six. Six, wow.

Yeah. And so we came to the US, to Washington DC, political asylum. Wow. And then we were in the US for about a to Washington, D.C., political asylum. Wow. And then we were in the U.S. for about a year. My dad was released. He joined us here. But he's always been very politically active.

And so he wants to return to Africa, although we couldn't go back to Ghana. So we went to Nairobi, Kenya, where we were for about three years until it became democratic in Ghana again. And then we went back. Wow. How long in Kenya? Three years, you said? Yeah, about three years in Nairobi. My Ghana again and then we went back. Wow. How long in Kenya? Three years, you said? Yeah, about three years in Nairobi.

My first, I went to a private boarding school in eighth grade and I was in a middle school boy's dorm and my first roommate was from Kenya.

Really? He spoke like seven languages, Swahili, Kikuyu, like all these languages. This is what I'm saying. Yes. It was crazy.

This is the thing, is that like, you know, I think there's such a crazy misperception about Africans. But it's really an Afropolitan-ness, is what I call it. Because you are required to know so much about the world. And because of colonization, you have people who speak Portuguese and French.

A lot of French. English, obviously. A lot of French. A lot of French. And there's lots of Indian immigrants, lots of lebanese immigrants lots of korean immigrants so you end up first of all the cultures all mesh together yeah and then language so you have people who speak like seven languages crazy they have nothing to do with their native language by the way right how many do you speak i speak three three languages yeah two native and then one. Got it. Got it. Obviously English.

Amazing. Okay. So you moved to Kenya and then you came back. Yeah. Then we went back to Ghana when I was almost 10. And then we moved to Colorado Springs, Colorado when I was almost 13. And that is where I feel like my formative years really took shape. So when people ask me where I'm from, I usually say I'm bicultural, that I'm Ghanaian,

but I grew up in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Right, right. That's when you learned the most probably about yourself. Yes, yes. Things started crystallizing. My character started getting sharpened. Sure, sure, sure. In Colorado Springs.

But you're probably like, it was mostly just white people, I'm assuming. Oh, yeah, yeah. You're like just stood out, right? Mostly. Dude, it was everyone. Literally everyone., I'm assuming. Oh, yeah, yeah. So you're like just stood out, right? Mostly. Dude, it was everyone. Literally everyone. Did you go to public school, private school?

Yes, I went to public school. Yeah, Liberty High School. What was that like? Go Lancers. What was that like? And were you this kind of personality when you were? Yeah. I've always been pretty loud.

Hey. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Use your voice. Yes, yes. Pretty outgoing always. Except that, I mean, when I came, I mean, it was really tough. I mean, I'm not going to pretend like, you know, everything was roses. There were a lot of well-meaning and well-intentioned people.

Not just the kids. The t-shirts, people at the grocery store. But just uneducated. Not educated at all. You know, didn't have a world perspective, which was actually shocking to me, right? Because, again, my feeling is like, okay, you're in Africa, you are expected to have a world perspective. There's all kinds of people running around, you're speaking all kinds of different languages. And then you come to the place where it's supposed to be like the better

world, the better place, and people have never left. My classmates didn't have passports. Yeah, probably never left the state, right? No, didn't really have a good sense of the world outside of Colorado Springs. They classmates didn't have passports. Yeah. Probably never left the state, right? No. Didn't really have a good sense of the world outside of Colorado Springs. They didn't even have a sense of the world outside Denver. And so they were very much in their own world. And that's why, look, I'm not angry about whatever that I went through because I just didn't know any better. I want people to know better. I want people to have more exposure I think obviously technology has helped us out a lot with that because this was 1989

where it's like what you were listening to was on the TV and on the radio and then you went to the mall you know there wasn't a lot of exposure no there's nothing to give you a broader view than whatever is being fed to you newspaper, magazine, TV all they saw were naked kids

with like you know Sally Struthers and like distended bellies. Yeah. From Africa. Yeah, exactly. They didn't know that there were skyscrapers. You know what I mean? Or that people drove luxury vehicles. They had no clue.

And so there was a lot of involuntary teaching that I had to do. Making sure that like my classmates understood why I had a sense of pride, that I wasn't embarrassed. Because then, you know, you're 12. And so there's a lot of teasing going on. Sure. People making fun of you and stuff. What were the big challenges you faced in high school then?

Besides the ignorance or uneducated peers, but was there anything else underneath that? Yeah, there was a lot of racial tension. Really? Yeah. I was also coming into my own. And so I really, I was trying to into my own. And so I really, I was trying to form my own

opinions on race and class and sexual orientation. It was also around the time when Matthew Shepard was beaten to death. In fact, that incident changed even my relationship with religion because my parents were, College Springs is a hotbed for evangelical Christianity. Sure. So we went to a mega church, you know, one of those where it's like three services. Each service is like 7,000 people. Yeah, yeah. You know, that kind of thing. It's like Joelstein style.

Oh, yeah. Pastor Ted was our guy. He sat on the pulpit and preached a message of hate the day that, the weekend that Matthew Shepard was killed. It was interesting because even then, even though I didn't really have a good sense of, I mean, I didn't know anybody who was gay or openly gay in my high school. Really? No. Before it became kind of popular or acceptable.

Yeah, yeah. I think before it was more open, right? And my parents definitely did not talk about that kind of thing in my house. But what I knew was what I was feeling as pastor ted stood on the pulpit and condemned this young person person who was my age who'd been beaten to death he made him wrong oh yeah oh yeah he made him wrong really him the enemy yeah yeah wow that's not good oh dude it was not good at all but this is like crowd thing too right people were applauding and cheering and the crowd was, you know, and it's like 7,000 people who were screaming. And think about it.

He did that three times that day. And so when I got home, I mean, I was just shaken, you know, and I knew I didn't want to go back to the church. How old were you then? I was, I don't know, 16 probably. And my dad was a deacon. My mom like ran the Sunday school. The whole thing. We sat in the front row

behind his wife and his kids. You were embedded in the church. Yeah, it's like, you know, so the decision the next Sunday to be like, I don't feel that good. I just want to sit. And then the second week,

I don't know if I'm feeling, you know, it became a real problem with me and my parents. So how did you have the courage to kind of open up at 16 of like, hey, I don't believe

or I don't feel comfortable with this type of thinking the way you guys have lived your entire life. Yeah. I definitely could not have articulated it then what it meant or what I was feeling. All I knew was that I hated the way that people, I didn't like the like feeling of blood vengeance, you know what I mean?

In the church. And I knew it made me feel uncomfortable and scared. I didn't like the feeling of blood vengeance, you know what I mean, in the church. And I knew it made me feel uncomfortable and scared. It was very similar to sometimes how I felt even in the classroom, where it's like if people don't feel like you're an other, how they can gang up on you. I knew that that feeling was not great, and I didn't want anything to do with it. Sure. So at that point, I was just like, I don't want anything to do with it. I don't want to be in that space. And like I said, I mean, I was volunteering at Sunday school as part of the youth group. You were singing,

you were playing piano. I mean, I got a tambourine, you know, like I had the whole thing going. Yeah. Yeah. I just couldn't do it. I just couldn't do it. And I stayed at home. Really? From then on, you never went back? I never went back. I never went back. What was that like with your parents? Oh, terrible. Convincing them? No. You know, my dad saw it as an embarrassment.

My mom was more understanding. But, you know, my dad, he just felt like he was embarrassed. His oldest daughter. Should be leading the example, not... Yes. Set an example, especially when you're African. You know what I mean? It's like, you set the example for the rest of your siblings and everything, whether it's sports or academics or

boys, religion, you know, you have to be the best. That way they can follow your lead. And so if I'm staying home and being like, no, I'm not doing that, then imagine what happens, right? You end up causing riots in your own house. Acts of defiance. But I just couldn't do it, man. I don't know. I can't really even articulate it now, but I knew that that was it. I just couldn't go back.

Wow. And were you able to cool things off with your father? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, eventually we just found, I mean, I only had two years left to go. Right. So you're like, ah, I'm out of here. I was out of there. But yeah, I mean, I just sort of avoided the subject.

Like all functioning families. Like great teenagers do, right? We just decide not to speak about it. Just like ignore it altogether. What would you say is one of the biggest challenges you went through then growing up, whether it be internally or through external issues or challenges from being in Africa or being in D.C. or being in Colorado Springs? Was there anything that you feel like kind of defined and shaped you? There's a couple of things. One, of course, now in retrospect, I can look back and say, wow, you know what?

Like I had to stand up tall because I am tall and I'm so different. And now it's almost like a blessing because I'm clearly facing the same thing in Silicon Valley now where it's like, oh, okay, you're one. You look around, there's no one else who looks anything like you. No, no, you're one of a kind. And so I've already been through that, so it's not scary. I don't feel fear in that, right? Or being other. But it took me a long time to find self-love just because like when you're faced with not being the object of desire or beauty or you're not anywhere near the epitome of what it should be it takes a long time I think as you know as a teenager as a kid as a young woman coming into your own takes a long time to then discover that oh yeah no no I'm I'm beautiful in my own way. That being this tall and this dark and this, that, and that,

it's like, that's okay. I am okay. I don't have to be these other things in order to be accepted. That was tough. That was hard. It's hard being a teenager. Oh my gosh. And trying to like...

It's the worst. Oh, it's awful. The teenagers are the worst for me. The teenagers are the worst. Oh my God, they're so miserable i'm really excited when i meet young women who either are struggling with their own sort of worth and being and coming into you know their own because you feel so awkward anyway and if you're in any kind of situation in which you feel other, you're just looking for connections, looking for anything.

To fit in. To fit in anything. And so even for me, I feel like those years helped also strengthen need for storytelling and communication. I feel like I really have been groomed for the career I've had because of that. I had to become the instant source of everything cool. I had to know it better than anyone. Because then you were so accepted, so viable. Yeah, because then you're the cool kid.

Then everybody wants to be your friend. If you know the latest fashion, you know the latest music, you know all the sports info. Dude, I was an encyclopedia. Before Google. You were Google. Let me tell you something. I wish I'd been a Google Alright

Okay I'd have been on that Like Yeah Let me figure out What I need to know about Whatever sports course No

You had to actually do the work Wow I had to watch all the games I had to listen to Read the newspapers Yes Magic FM 24-7

Read all Team Beat Spent all my time at the mall You had to Get the information In any way possible so that at school i could be the source of all the info be the coolest kid around what would you say is your greatest gift now probably my intuition that's also been crafted over time how did you cultivate that lots of failure lots of not trusting it it's the feeling regardless of where you are you know

it's not just about like work or whatever it's about people like meeting somebody and being like that person ain't right it doesn't matter who they are because you know this always happens right it's like somebody introduce you somebody oh you know they're super amazing because they've done blah blah blah and they're like bragging on this person and you meet them and you're like I don't think so. And knowing that that is actually okay, that you should listen to it and back up. Don't go forward with this person because something ain't right. I don't know what it is, but something ain't right. And so I've got to listen to that. It also works for jobs. Every time I have ignored it,

it has been bad. Miserable jobs, right? Miserable situations. Or like just in general, I feel like just being able to trust it and it comes in various ways, whether it's like that feeling of an ease or it's like that little voice or just something. And it's different for everybody. But for me, I've tried to hone it so that now I react more quickly and I don't question it any longer. Really? In every situation, even like intimate relationships or every situation, everything.

Yeah. It comes down to interviews, everything. Well, I'm glad you have the intuition to come in here. Then walk out on it right away. No, no, no,

no, no, but if I know, but truth be told, if I'd walked in here and felt like there was some weirdness, I'd just be like, Hey, listen,

this ain't, this ain't happening today. I appreciate you. Keep doing what you're doing. But I got to go. Wow. Have you done that before? Oh, I have. Oh, yeah.

No way. No, I have hands. Yes. For like press or interviews or whatever. Yes, that's right. Yeah. Because you know what? You can tell.

I know it won't work out. It won't work out in my favor for sure. It might work out for them. Yeah, yeah. And so why am I sacrificing myself? No, uh-uh, no. Before, like, I would feel bad, and I would need to, like, try to explain. Now folks need an explanation.

It might also be because I turned 40, and now I give, like, zero Fs. You're like, don't care. Yeah, yeah. So if I don't feel it, I don't feel like I need to excuse it to anybody. Wow. That is not for me. Thank you. I'm off to do this.

Right. Now, did you always know that you were going to be executive at a big brand and kind of like shaping culture at these different brands nope i thought i was going to be a doctor really yes an obstetrician specifically tell me what that is i'm ignorant that's a person who births babies oh wow really i've never given a baby so that's why i don't know that yeah okay wow crazy. Wow. Crazy. That's what you wanted to do? What? High school? Well, I mean, again, because of the influence of African parents, there were three careers I could go into. It was like, oh, you're a doctor. Engineer. Engineer. Yes. Do you have African parents? Are you? No, you don't. Okay. Fantastic. Well, that's fine. Fantastic. Well, that's fine.

Anyway. It's kind of like Asian parents, African parents. Why is it? Why are those the careers? Like, why is that? It's the safe. It's the, like, credible. It's the, they made it. Yeah.

I don't know. Whatever. It's a badge of honor, I guess. And so I chose doctor because I was good at sciences and math. And, you know, again, because of where I was, I think I was given, like, some sort of extra praise, you know, because it was like, I was a lone black girl. Oh, and I was super smart at, like, science and math. It was like, whoa was a lone black girl. Oh, and I was super smart at like science and math. It was like, oh my God, this person that doesn't exist, you know,

unicorn. Yeah, exactly. Oh my God. And so it felt like that's what I should be doing. And so that's where I just went. When did that shift? In college, I went to college pre-med, took full course load in the sciences. was biology major and then i took a class my freshman year called african-american studies because there was a guy in there that was real hot i'm not gonna lie followed him to that class okay cool and then the professor was so amazing this guy ashtar rushdie incredible. And it just opened up my mind. I mean, again, coming from Colorado Springs, there was no African American anything being taught anywhere. Right, right.

And so I walk into this class and it was like, it wasn't just history. It was literature, it was poetry. Yeah. It was just culture. It was mind blowing to me. I forgot the guy. I was like, true, what guy? You fell in love with something else. Yeah, yeah. Oh, 100%. And then it was like the gateway drug.

Catalyst. Yeah, the catalyst. Because it just opened up to other things. There was an American studies professor who I also really liked a lot, Karichi, who was also teaching things about culture, but American culture. So now it's like not just African-American culture. How did African-American culture impact American culture? How did Asian culture impact American culture. So now it's like, not just African American culture, how did African American culture impact American culture? How did Asian culture impact American culture?

How did immigrants, that was just, it was such a confounding thing to me to think about American culture and how that would all come together

based on all these inputs and over time. And also at the time, Tupac had been killed. He was my favorite artist. I knew everything I mean come on hey ambitious as a rider

you know what I mean we could go we could go toe to toe you don't want to battle me today I'm not even going to try don't worry don't even do it you know much more about me

don't even do it culture, music, everything I can African dance though I've been doing some African dancing you know what don't make me challenge you it's almost like the chicken dance I swear to you listen I've got video of me dancing. You know what? Don't make me challenge you. It's almost like the chicken dance. I swear to you.

Listen. I've got video of me doing it. We will push this table away and get, no, in fact, we'll get on the table. Exactly, yeah. And battle it out. But anyway, so I heard that there was a class being taught at USC on Tupac, basically using his lyrics as like poetry, you know, like his lyrics as a sign of the times. And you were going to USC this whole time.

No, I was going to Wesleyan university. I was in Connecticut. Wow. Way on the other side of the country. And you heard about a class. I heard about a class being taught at USC on Tupac, you know, it was in the moment, like he had just been killed. I was grieving and everything. You're like, I have to take this.

Yeah. And so I, I tried to see if I could, like, I went to the Dean, try to see if I could do like a, I don't know, some sort of transfer class or something. Like, could I, like, listen in and, like, get credits? So pre-online courses. Yeah. Pre, you know what? Will you tell these youngins how good they have it? Exactly, right?

Yeah. Pre-online classes, man. So they said no. Then I was like, ooh, I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to have Kirichi, who's my American Studies professor, teach the class. No way. So I made a proposal. I took it to him. He said no. And then he said,

here's what we'll do. He was like, if you create, he was like, you've already created the syllabus. You've already created it. He was like, if you teach it, I will support you, and you can get credit as well as get other students to get credit and i was like you taught the class for three semesters shut up yeah you taught yeah with the waiting list man i was popping wow i was what junior senior or what i was a so i taught it both semesters

junior and the first semester of my let a student teach yeah class teach a class yeah yeah i petitioned and it was incredible. I think everybody knew I was serious because I was so committed, and I really had done my work and my research. Because you probably talked to the teacher, and you see, and you're like, what's the outline? Yes. Oh, my God.

I did everything. I wrote letters. I corresponded with the students who took the class. Collect calls, pagers, everything. Dude, everything. You know, you're beeping people. Yes, a 411. Yes.

I was in the codes, all of it. I mean, you know, the hallway phone would ring, and I'd run to it and be like, hello, it's Post. You know, it's my class. It was so nuts. I think at first, probably the students thought, like, this would be fun and easy because it's a class on hip-hop, which there were zero classes like that. Plus, it's like a fellow student who's teaching it.

Oh, it's going to be a piece of cake. And it was a night. It was going to be a good time. But no, we were being very serious about this and thoughtful. And I would say that it took maybe all of like two weeks before we were in. I mean, and we had some of the most dynamic conversations. It became more than just about the lyrics. It became the dialogue around what was happening in the country.

more than just about the lyrics. It became the dialogue around what was happening in the country. You know, what would cause this very culturally aware, politically savvy young man to then speak primarily about a culture, because he's actually putting himself in a situation in which he actually didn't come from. You know, I think people forget that.

Think like, oh, okay, he was just a thug on the corner selling drugs. No, that was not Tupac. His parents were Black Panthers. And so to think that, okay, he had a voice, he was choosing to be the voice for a group of people that were unheard, you know, became what I thought was

worthy of academic discourse. So. Wow. Yeah, so that must have been incredible. So things you probably learned about yourself from being a student to now a teacher to. It was so great. It really was so great. A great, great time.

And so you decided after that, okay, no longer going into being a doctor. I'm going into what? I don't know. I didn't have a name for it. I did graduate as pre-med. I applied to med schools. Got in. I was on my way, but i'd also taken african

american studies as a major and english so i was carrying three majors now i only claim african american studies in english when people ask me like what i write because i'm just like the biology like seriously i'm not even interested i don't even talk about school because i was barely even went to class you know i just went to get good enough grades to play football. See, okay. And it took me almost seven and a half years to graduate. Oh, right. And I went to like three different schools, transferred around a bunch.

Wow. And have a sports marketing degree or whatever, sports management. I can't remember what it's called. That is amazing. I can't even use what I learned from there. But isn't that the truth though? I don't feel like, you know, unless you're in some sort of technical field, I feel like college

is a time, just like we're talking about, to discover who you are, what you want to do, who you want to be, you know, really sharpen your analytical and cultural thought and apply that. For me, it was learning, like, just social skills. Just understanding human beings and

understanding how to really enroll people in an idea, which is what it sounds like you did. You're like, I need to enroll my professor. I need to enroll the school. I need to enroll this other school to give me the information. I need to enroll students in this vision that you had. And you enrolled people. You learned what made people tick, what made people say yes, say no, and you made it happen, which is the ultimate skill.

Enrollment, getting people connected to a bigger vision. And engaging them in a thought. And it's so funny because when I was graduating, my parents were super proud because I graduated, like I said, pre-med. I was on my way to class. Everything was fine. I partied really hard. And so I had that going for me on my way to class. Yeah. Like everything was fine. I partied really hard. It's great.

And so I had that going for me, like on my own notches on the belt type of situation, you know, where I felt really good. So I came out of college feeling hella confident. I own this world. Oh, yeah. I was like, socially, I got this. Academically, I got this. You can't tell me nothing. And so I was like, well, you know what?

I'm going to move to New York City because I can because why not and my parents like okay you could do that for a year and then you're going to school right you know and so I was like all right great by the way thank god it wasn't today like I would have definitely talked myself out of that I just didn't know that anything bad could happen to me because I just thought I was the greatest. The greatest thing that ever happened. I was super smart. Plus, I was socially savvy. What could possibly go wrong?

What happened? Oh, dude. Oh, my God. So you moved there on your own? Yeah, I moved there on my own. Where did you move to? Astoria, Brooklyn, Queens? I moved to Harlem.

Okay. Because I had one friend. She graduated the year before me, and she was going to Columbia Film School. Wow, nice. And so she had a dorm room or a a dorm apartment yeah that she shared with somebody else and so she said i could sleep on her couch until i found a job i thought i was gonna walk into new york city and get a job right away what look at me like of course i'm gonna win

why somebody wouldn't give me a job sure oh three and a half months later i'm still like looking for work on the couch, and she's getting annoyed. The roommate definitely hates me. Oh, my gosh. I have no money. My dad is definitely not sending me any kind of checks. I've made friends with a little bodega on the corner and this restaurant called El Floridita, which is on the corner of 125th. Floridita.

Yes. Oh, my God. This little Dominican place. Salsa dancing. Dude. I've been there. What? I've salsa danced there.

You know what? I can't even take it. I'm about to get up and leave. What are you talking about? Are you serious? I lived in New York City for a year and a half, and I used to salsa dance in all the spots. With the green awning? They had the green on the-

Yeah, of course. What? Shut up. Yeah, yeah. Yo, that was my spot. Yeah. I loved everybody in there. Homies, okay?

They fed me when I couldn't pay for it. That's good. You know what I'm saying? That's good. I didn't go there that much, but I used to know all the spots where they had salsa dancing so yeah but this is why i just i love when we think about like culture and connections with people and stuff like that it didn't matter where i came from or that i'd gone to this super snobby school and thought i was like the biggest illest thing. You make connections with people and they, they saved my life. They fed me. That's amazing. And actually, cause I was in

Florida when the wonderful waitress who had become like an auntie to me was like, you need a job. And I'm like, I know I'm trying to get a job, but I was like applying for these like high falutin jobs that didn't make any sense. Now I look back on it and like, I know, I'm trying to get a job. But I was like applying for these like highfalutin jobs that didn't make any sense. Now I look back on it and like I laugh at myself. Yeah. You need like an entry level. Yeah, I need like an entry level job. And she had like a niece or something who signed up with a temp agency.

And so she was like, oh, you know, you sign up and basically you call them every night and they'll tell you where you need to go in the morning. Right? So it's like it's transient work basically. But I was yeah whatever anything pay me 50 100 bucks a day it doesn't matter i was making zero money so anything would have been good so i walked in there they laughed at me because like i had like you know a great degree and like all these experiences like you know speak language they were just like yeah they were like what are you doing here but they sent me out on jobs i was a receptionist at a dog washing salon on the upper east side i filed like national geographics at this one place for like two months which was awful i nearly lost my mind in that one

god i did so many little things oh i was a i was a oh what do they call them when um you know you're like serving at a party you're wearing like the yeah like uh catering catering yes so i did that a few times which by the way i mean all of these experiences like what every model does yeah right except i was you know i was in the club though out in those streets get to know people and god all the clubs in new york then which were just so fun and just crazy i also made so many good friends at that time because all of like the assistants or people who were like entry level at their own places would like get you in to the party so like my good

friend moxia fitzgibbons who's now very senior at Complex Magazine. I met him that way. Wow. You know, where like I would go to their magazine release parties because they have one every month. Uh-huh. And, you know, pass hors d'oeuvres are free. You know what I mean? Right, yeah. Open bar.

Oh, yeah. Of course. So I go and eat there, right? It was great. Just hustling, just hustling to make it. And then one day I got the divine intervention, the call that it was like, okay, Spike Lee had fired his assistant and they needed me to go cover phones the next day so it was like oh this is my jam i was like something like this

me yeah this is me for me you know so i go in there i'm wearing like the only gray suit i own i've pulled my hair back into like a severe bun i'm wearing these little tiny pearls because i wanted to look professional and i walk in there and he's like they sent me miss america that's literally what he said to me like i was like like all shriveled down you know like oh my god you know i was like oh my god i'm gonna get fired before i answer the first phone and he was like who are you you know and i was like oh i'm bozeman saint john you know it was like it's an honor to meet you. Did I just want to help? Where do you want me? He's just like, just sit down, okay, and answer the phone.

Because here I thought I was going to be doing some big stuff, right? But that turned into a month of answering the phones. I was getting coffee. So you had to come back the next day. Yeah, I got the dry cleaning, anything, lunch for anybody in the office, everything. Whatever needed to be done. I mean, I was fixing the copying machine. Anything that needed to be done, I was doing.

Meanwhile, my dad is like calling me constantly and screaming, right? You have an Ivy League degree and you're getting coffee. You know, he's so pissed. And then, again, moment of divine intervention, Spike had just finished writing Bamboozled, one of his films that, to to me is one of the greatest. I remember this. Yes.

Pieces of like, you know, just what racial conflict is like in America, right? And what it means and all that. Very, very deep film. He finished writing it and he threw it down on the desk. And he was like, take a look at this. I didn't know any better. I thought he meant like mark it up. Because, yeah, I was an English major.

I mean, I was like, oh, let me just grab my red pen. Wow. You know what I mean? And I marked this thing he meant like mark it up because yeah i was an english major i mean i was like oh let me just let me grab my red pen wow you know me and i marked this thing up i marked it up now like i literally could die sitting here and being like hey go boss like right there's a month in two months or like yes like six weeks in wow i've been getting the coffee in the dry cleaning wow who do you think you are you just walk in now you're gonna be marking up spike lee's script like that's what you're gonna do but like yeah he came the next he's like what'd you think of it i was like oh yeah i made i made some notes and he was like notes you made notes on my script and i was like yeah yeah and so he like he just shook his head and i remember like literally everyone's snickering you know around i was like oh my god now i'm really gonna get

fired you know and he goes into his office like oh my God, now I'm really going to get fired, you know? And he goes into his office, like an hour later, he walks back out of his, he's just like, what do you do again? And that was it. That was it.

I had a full-time job. No way. I got promoted. Yeah. I had a little desk. Then I became like the assistant account executive. I didn't even know what the hell that was, but I told my dad I have benefits,

you know? So I was not a temp anymore. So I just continued to do anything he said. I helped out at the office, and he started this advertising agency called Spike DDB, which was on Madison Avenue in connection with DDB Worldwide,

the agency that Mad Men was based off of. So, you know, it was a big deal. New York City, you know, feeling real important. Now you're getting $35,000 a year and you're What? 35 grand? That was, no. What was it back then? It was like 23. $23,000 a year, yeah. $23,000 a year. I remember my sister when she worked in New York City for a couple of years. I think it was around like 23, 26 grand. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. Full time, 80 hours a week type of. Full time. Yeah. All your good years. Yeah, exactly. Wow. So how long were you with Spike? Four years. Four

years. I was there four years and it was such a great four years. Wow. We worked on so many ads because he was creating his ad agency and trying to, again, change the narrative of what was happening in advertising. So remember he did those Nike ads? He was famous. I mean, it's one of the greatest campaigns of all time. Of all time. So he had turned that into his own pursuit, right? Where we did, obviously, spots with New York Next, as you can imagine, and Jaguar Cars and State Farm. And we did the Janet Jackson Velvet Rope Tour. You know, it was like all of these amazing things. And I had my hand in it, all of it.

He threw you in it and said, I need you to have creative ideas. You want to work on these campaigns. I was writing the briefs, writing the pitches. You know, like just, again, wherever I could help, I was doing. And then the agency was trying to win the business for Pepsi. And Pepsi was going through a tough time and trying to find, like, the next talent. You know, because at the time, it was like, okay, you're going to sign a big artist, and they're going to be the face of your campaign. And like I said, I had been out in these streets partying a lot.

Hustling. So you're seeing the upcoming talent. You're like, oh, this person is always popping. We were out there. Beyonce had just left Destiny's Child or she was thinking about it. And she had also just done this film called The Hip Hoppera. Carmen, The Hip Hoppera on MTV. It was a TV film because she was trying to be an actress, right?

She was trying to leave. And, you know, people weren't necessarily giving her. I mean, now it's like we sit back and we're like, oh, yeah, King B. Nobody gonna doubt her, you know? But at the time necessarily giving her. I mean, now it's like we sit back and we're like, oh, yeah, King B. Like nobody gonna doubt her, you know. But at the time, it's like, think about it. It's like how many successful. People break off. Yeah.

Had come out of groups like that. People were not giving her the credit she deserved. But I saw the hip hop era, which I thought was brilliant. I think it was like critically panned. But I thought it was great, you know know because like think about like opera being interpreted through hip-hop to like a young audience holy crap like that's it's kind of like hamilton before it's time you know it's kind of like yeah yeah 100 yeah i mean it was just so brilliant and so we were in one of those creative sessions with beyonce no not with beyonce just us like spike and the rest of the team were talking

about all these artists and pepsi did have her like on the short list of people they were interested in but then in talking about it and going through was like hey like i just watched this hip-hop right here you know what i mean and like i thought beyonce killed it you know because she was carmen and so spike watched it and he was like she should be be Carmen in this spot. That's what we should do. And he's going to direct it. We sold the campaign to Pepsi. Wow. And that was it.

I was in like Flint. You know what I mean? Wow. That was it. That was it. The rest is history. And so then you went over to Pepsi after that, or were you still with Spike? Yeah, I did.

They stole you or what? Yeah, I stayed with Spike for a while. But then, you know, my mind started playing tricks on me. Even then, I started to think if I'm just relying on this pop culture stuff, people won't think I'm smart. So, and I was already feeling it. People weren't giving me my credit

for like the small connections you make that turn into magic. Those ideas, that creativity. It really takes talent and taste. It's not just like, oh, I guessed and it worked out. No, this is freaking mathematics. It was everything, yeah. Yes, it's not just like oh i guessed and it worked out yeah this is your intuition it was everything yes it's all of those things it's really smart it's not luck but i start to feel that that like i wasn't being taken seriously and like i said you know i've been

the smart kid in school always i was like oh so now what like i'm not smart because i'm doing this so i quit and this is one of those moments where I should have listened to my intuition because I tried. I went to this agency where I was supposed to work on smoking cessation. So, you know, like the patch. Really? Nicorette and all of those,

like the gums and things because it was pharmaceutical and that was really hard advertising. Only the smartest people went into that kind of advertising because, you know, you had to know the laws and you had to know all the things in order to create a message that could penetrate and still be legally viable. And so I went to do that. It was a disaster. Oh my gosh. Disaster. Three months in, I was done. It was finished. And so then, yeah, I called my friends

at Pepsi for advice, like, you know, because I'd made some friends along the way. Yeah, of course. I just wanted, like, advice on, like, what else to do. I wasn't actually thinking about Pepsi at all. Because my opinion of them were that they were all cut from the same cloth. They were all MBAs who went to the top 10 schools, came in as an intern class together, were promoted together. It was a club. And I couldn't, I wasn't part of the club.

I wasn't in. And one of the guys I wasn't in and one of the guys i've been really close to was like would you consider working here we think you'd be really really great we could use your perspective and i was like oh hell no i was like this is look like i can't i can't do that yeah and so i went in for like a series of interviews white boys club 100 right they were all wearing like khakis and the blue button-down shirts. Oh, my God. I had a nose ring at the time. I was not one of the peoples.

But this, again, goes back to my childhood. I've never been. So you fit right in. So I got there, and the work was interesting. And so I was like, well, you know what? I've never been to Frey before, so I'll give this a shot. Wow. What was the biggest lesson about working with Pepsi for you?

I think it was the validation of knowing that pop culture can drive business. That was the first time that I knew it for sure. Wow. This is not a game. You know what's interesting? It seems like it drives business, but does it drive politics after what happened? Yes. Of course it does.

So I think this is an even bigger lesson now, today. Well, with all the artists and celebrities endorsing one party that didn't win, does it work? Yes, it does work because it's about

how to focus the message. I think we forget that it's not actually about the artists, it's about the audience. Any brand or political organization that puts their money

on the artists and forgets the audience is going to lose. Ah, so don't put it on the artist. Don't put it on the artist. The artist is a tool. Every other pop culture avenue, you have a set of tools and you're going to use all of them to get to the audience. But as soon as you forget the audience, you're dead. So how do we remember the audience and deliver the message through an artist or an influencer or something like that? Because it always starts with them. It always starts with the audience.

It's like, what do they want? What are they feeling? How are they behaving? You have to fill that void. And then you can fill that void by using an asset that they will listen to. Insert artist or insert platform or league or whatever. So did Hillary not have the right artists then?

No, no, no. She didn't pay attention to the audience. So, no, because she had all the right artists. Everybody. That's what I'm saying. She had all the right artists. Yeah, right. She had you getting all the artists for a year. She had the artists, but she forgot about the audience. I mean, she readily admits that as well. Right, right.

Whereas Trump was firmly focused on the audience. Audience. And he had a clear message for the audience. Absolutely. He knew the gap and he talked to it. Mm.

When? I mean. That's it. That's it. You know? And I know it's like now it sounds easy or making it very simple

and it's hard to do that. And he executed with his conviction day after day and stood by his vision. All of it. All of it. He did use also pop culture to drive the message.

So it's not as if he didn't. But he had the message for the gap that the audience was looking for. And that's the thing is that even though we can look at it and say, okay, well, that's a very small audience. But how powerful when you engage an audience that is movable. You know what I mean? Even if they're tiny. I think that's, again, what we forget. We're like, oh, okay, well, there's this little niche. They're not powerful. No, they're very powerful if you engage them. If you strike their passion or their emotion, they will move. They'll do anything you say without question. They'll forgive you for anything. Everything.

Anything. Kill people. Yes. Whatever, whatever. You know, and that's the power of great marketing is that you will actually be forgiven. The wrongs will be overlooked because people feel like you've connected in some way.

Wow. Yeah. What is the key to building a great brand, in your opinion, and really making an impact on the audience you're serving? Yeah, yeah. And have it just like grow exponentially and just like,

what are all those elements that you've seen? I mean, it seems like you're the top. You've been in so many different brands, part of so many campaigns, so many different sectors, seen all the biggest celebrities build their brand. Well, in addition to the audience, I think you also have to start with the brand truth. Really can't make it up.

You can't go get somebody else's truth and then pretend it's yours. So it has to start with some brand truth. So how does someone create that? Is that like a mission statement you mean? Yeah, it's like a mission statement. This is what we stand for. It's also just like understanding the brand itself. What role does it play in the world?

Because when a brand launches, it has no brand presence, but then it becomes something to people. And I think part of the challenge is actually listening to what it has become instead of wishing for what you want it to be. Because the audience may take it somewhere on its own. Yes. The customers, the clients. They have already created something. So then you've got to actually listen to that thing. You may not like it, but you've got to listen to it

and then figure out how to create messaging so that you warm them to maybe evolve the conversation. But first, you've got to embrace it. Go ahead and give it a big bear hug. Okay, this is what the audience believes this brand is about. And then work through that. So

at Pepsi, it was like okay do was which pepsi owns yes yeah what is the brand for the crazy white boy yeah yeah the one who's jumping off roofs yeah yeah the alternative like he's doing all kind of he's got insurance he's doing all kind of crazy shit you know what i mean the bmx or the skateboarder all of that yeah yeah actually interesting enough there was a time actually right when I started when there was an urban myth that was released that yellow dye number five, which is the key dye ingredient of Mountain Dew, would shrink your package if you drank it. Yes, I remember this. I mean, one of the best counter-marketing tactics of all time. Right.

If it's not already a case study, it should be. Wow. It's brilliant. Yeah, yeah. Almost killed the business. I can imagine because everyone's like, no guys, it should be. It's brilliant. Yeah, yeah. Almost killed the business. I can imagine because everyone's like, no guys want to drink this.

I'm not going to drink this. I'm going to go get Sprite. But the thing is that, yeah, but the thing is that the brand truth was not just about the crazy white boy,

but that this beverage would give you a boost of testosterone. If you were that guy who was walking around- People believed it. They believed that. Believed it.

Just got to lean into that belief. You may not like it, but you got to lean in there. And then the solution was that looking at what other audiences also believe that kind of thing and what are their expressions of it. So for black men,

what did that mean? Maybe they weren't jumping off the side of the mountain, but what were they doing to express that extra testosterone? And then go to that thing, right? And make do part of that message. It's not the same for Pepsi. You couldn't take Pepsi there. Pepsi belongs with Britney Spears.

Yeah, yeah. And all the other pop. Shania Twain. All of that. You know what I mean? Pepsi's having a good time. Yeah, yeah. They don't want any kind of danger.

You know what I mean? Drinking maybe champagne. Yeah, yeah. Not drinking Hennessy. You know what I mean? Pepsi's having a good time. Yeah, yeah. No one in any kind of danger. No. You know what I mean? Drinking maybe champagne. Yeah, yeah. Not drinking Hennessy. You know what I'm saying? Exactly. We all know that person. So, again, I think that regardless of the brand that I've worked on,

it's about accepting the brand truth and then leaning towards that thing and cultivating some goodness out of it. Because there is good in all of the brand truths. You just have to uncover it and then move your audience to accept whatever evolution you're trying to get to. Because they got to trust you first. Right. And so you were at Pepsi for a few years and then was it Beats after that?

Yeah, almost a decade. Yeah, I went from Pepsi to Beats. Really? How did that relationship work with Jimmy and Dre? Yeah. How did they either find with Jimmy and Dre? Yeah. How did they either find you or you find them or whatever? They found me. So I was going through the toughest personal experience.

Which was what? My husband had been diagnosed with cancer six months, or he'd been diagnosed with cancer in May of 2013. It also come right after, at that time anyway, my greatest career achievement which had been working with beyonce on the super bowl halftime show in new orleans legendary it was just i mean there are stories about that that'll be the next time i come front of mine was a dancer in that show really yeah oh my god it was just because the thing i think people forget that

she sang at president obama's inauguration and remember that she was like almost beaten down because she used a backing track for the wind, and people were saying that she couldn't sing. That's why she did it. Who says that? Like, are you out of your mind? What? All the receipts this woman has,

and like she used a backing track, and now she's going to be panned? Are you out of your... And that was like a week before the Super Bowl. He had to get through all of that. Plus, the added pressure was that because of the ban on Janet Jackson, there'd been no black woman

on the stage for 10 years. Beyonce was that one. She was like the holy grail. It was like the pressure of the whole moment. The inauguration was supposed to be an amazing, beautiful thing. People are coming at you because they're like, you can't sing. What?

Crazy. And then you're literally sitting on the burden of carrying the weight of black women everywhere, our redemption. You got to kill the entire performance because that's Super Bowl anyway. So it doesn't matter who you are. That performance is lots of pressure. So coming off a very emotionally, corporately difficult time for me with highs and lows. And then six months later, my husband was diagnosed with cancer. Unfortunately, neither of

us were new to cancer because both of our mothers had battled breast cancer. And at the time he was diagnosed, my mother was going through her second bout actually. so literally the world came crashing because it was like my mom was battling her her cancer and then he got sick um and it just felt it felt it just felt impossible my daughter was four and it was just like i don't understand how how this happens but we went into like overdrive it was like like, okay, you know, we're going to make the t-shirts, we're going to make the Facebook group, we're going to have the prayer circles, found the best oncologist, all the alternative treatments, everything. And then he died. Oh man. Even as I sit here talking to you, like it's still unbelievable to me. He was just, he was just so big. His spirit was so big. It just, it doesn't make any sense to me.

His spirit was so big. It doesn't make any sense to me. We didn't plan our life for him to die. It's unbelievable that that could happen. He passed away in December of 2013. So quickly after he got diagnosed. Yeah, six months. Six months after.

Yeah, from his diagnosis to his death. It was very, very quick. But in that process, the gift in it was that we really, I mean, and this is going to sound so trite, but I'm telling you, like, it's the way I live my life now, which is that every day matters. There is not one wasteful day. Every day and everything you choose to do in the day matters because that's what we're faced with. At the time when the oncologist was like, okay, you guys are going to have to be very purposeful because guess what's going to happen? Tomorrow he's going to wake up and something else is not going to work. So you're going to have to decide today what you want to do.

And then tomorrow when you wake up, see what's working and then do something again. Okay. And then the next day, and that's, that's where we lived. It was like, it was being under the most intense pressure, trying to prepare for the end, but trying to like live for today. It was just. There was no hope or they were not giving you like- No, there was no hope. There was no chance.

No. Oh my gosh. We tried. It was nine different chemos, all the radiation. Nothing worked. Nothing was working. It just got worse and worse. By the time it was like October, in fact, October 25th, so anniversary coming up, where

the college was just like, you know, nothing's going to work. You guys are going to have to decide what you want to do. Probably have about three weeks after that. Oh my gosh. And we were stunned silence, like sitting there like, we don't understand what you're saying.

You know, we just, we don't understand what you're saying. What was he like? What was he like in those moments where he knew there was only a month or a few months left? And how did he handle that? And what did you learn about yourself watching his process yeah well he you know it's it's like so interesting

because it's like i actually haven't really thought about that he vacillated between being super pissed very angry about his diagnosis about being robbed of his life you know he was not yet 44 we had a like i said we had a four-year-old we're living our best lives right and he was he was really pissed you know to be robbed of it and at the same time and this is what makes it so complicated is that and also part of the blessing which is that because you know because the oncologist who by the way god bless her she was like this little tiny sprite of a woman you know full of energy and like determination she did everything she gave us all the options but it was her message of like just do everything you know whatever it is that

you've wanted to do do it like don't wait like there's no don't come back here and hopefully don't do that like just just live it you know and so he vacillated between this anger but then as it was coming true and as things were failing his body started failing him he was so urgent you know to like live so it replaced the anger i feel like it trained my muscles on like living urgently that there was no other option we quickly realized that anger has no place where you can be mad like what you're gonna do you're gonna be mad for what you're gonna sit there and be upset and are you gonna to do? You're going to be mad for what? You're going to sit there and be upset? And are you going to bicker over something stupid? You don't have time.

You don't have time. So now it's like, even, you know, it's almost four years. And even now, like, when I get upset about something, it burns so quick. Listen, I used to be the master hoarder of anger and feelings. I would hold a grudge. Years. Woo, man, I was a professional. But now my anger burns quickly because I just realized that it has no purpose. It doesn't drive me to do anything better or greater or live any better. So I'm really trying, and I'm still working at it, but I really do try to remember that. I know. And I'm shocking. I know. I'm still working at it, but I really do try to remember that. Yeah.

I know. Come on, Boze. I know. I'm just talking. What would you say is, if you're willing to share, one of the most beautiful moments that you guys had together in those last few weeks? Oh, man. There were so many, to be honest. November 9th was our anniversary of our first date.

And so that November 9th actually like posted on Facebook and whatnot because um he was getting his chemo treatment because we hadn't yet you know we were still getting treatments although we were not staying at the hospital but he would come in and out and I was like sitting with and he was a collector of fine wines, which again is part of the lesson, which was just like, what are we saving these bottles for? So we cracked open this like super expensive bottle, you know what I mean? And he obviously couldn't drink it. So I drank it by myself, you know, just sitting on his hospital bed. He's like sitting there with the IVs and, you know, I was just looking at him and just like like of all the years we'd been together 13 years

married for 10 just remembering all of the things and remembering the small stupid things that I was angry about or that I resented or that I wish had been better or that you know and um I we we decided in that moment that we were going to confess everything that we'd ever harbored that we hadn't talked about. Holy cow. Yeah. And it was. Was some crazy stuff that opened up for both of you? Yeah, because it was like so stupid and so little.

Stuff that you were just like, I can't believe I'm so mad about this, but let me just tell you. You know what I mean? Because it felt like the unreleasing, you know, things. And it was probably one of the most beautiful gifts because again, the lesson was that, like, I just can't hold on to anger or little petty things, you know, or even the big things.

Somebody does something to you and you're mad about it. Like you need to talk it through, you know, hold on to it. It was a beautiful thing because it was like our anniversary, which we always celebrated. We got married in June, but it was like our anniversary which we always celebrated we got married in june but that was like our anniversary moment we probably celebrated bigger than our wedding but it was just to think that god we don't have much time left and we've got to release everything that we've got you know just let it go it also taught me a lot about relying on other people up until then i felt pretty invincible pretty self-sustaining yeah i was wonder woman wonder mom wonder executive wonder everything

wonder wife all that and then you realize that you're truly powerless and that you've got to rely on other people for help and that's not a sign of weakness actually yeah to get help yeah wow which has also been great because i don't mind asking anybody to help me that's good now i'm just like hey listen so i got the dry cleaning that i need you to pick up like the little things and the big things i'm not at all afraid and that's why it's like even now when people are like oh my god how do you do it all'm like, I don't do it all. There's no pride in that. I don't find any pride in carrying it all yourself. Like you think that makes you big and bad?

No, it's going to kill you. You share that weight. You ask people for help. There's so much I want to continue asking you. We got about 15 minutes. How is this possible? I want to see how much I can get in okay in 15 minutes and thank you for sharing all that about the process and that experience because i know that's

got to be probably one of the most challenging things that any human could ever go through so thanks for sharing and opening up about that yeah i wanted to get back to the beats experience yes because i think there's so much of your life that is fascinating to understand. And after watching the Defiant Ones, I'm just like, were you in that, by the way? Yes, I was. Okay, I'm sure there was a moment where I started just forgetting now because I didn't know about you until. I had different hair. Yeah. Which was unbelievable, the Defiant Ones.

So I'm just curious how you got involved. It sounds like they snatched you up from Pepsi. Yes, yes. What that journey was like yeah and kind of like you know where you're at now yeah in 15 minutes okay well here's the thing i mean it really does connect because my after my husband passed away almost three months later and i was just in a vulnerable state i needed something else to believe in of course and by the way make no bones about the fact that i love to work. I love my work.

I love the things I do. I just need to find new purpose. And he was saying all the right things. Yeah. He was saying, because Pepsi was big and I was successful and could have stayed there another 20 years if I wanted to. But I met Jimmy. He reached out. He had some people find me.

And I was already in L.A. for my sister's wedding. And so I got the call, which was like, Jimmy, I would like you to come to his house. And I was like in LA for my sister's wedding and so yeah I got the call which is like Jimmy I even would like you to come to his house I was like yeah I get to his house and it was beats big but then or was it my yeah it was big it was well beats electronics was really big beats music had been launched actually on my birthday two months before that it was still new very very new Jimmy was basically like hey, I've had many turns in my career.

I've been successful at all of them. All of them have been in music and then now it's like this electronics thing. But he wanted his legacy to be, and Dre,

and Trent Reznor, like all wanted to change the way, the trajectory of the music business. Because we all know that the value of the music itself

was starting to be lost. Yes, and this was 2014? Yeah, it was 2014. So the headphones were big. Headphones were big. Now they're doing the music stuff. Music service had just launched. Got it, got it.

But this is right around the time when no one was buying records anymore. It was just kind of like all streamed or free. Everything was free. Everything was free. And so artists were no longer making music to sell. And they were like, how do I make money? Yeah, they were on tour.

And anyone will tell you that an artist on tour all the time will kill you. It's exhausting. You know, it's like freaking people are taking five years to make albums. Now you're churning out albums. Every two, three years. I mean, it's like every year. So in any case, I really loved the message and the fact that, because what he was talking about was in the future.

And I was in an emotional talking about was in the future. And I was in an emotional place where I needed the future. You know, I needed something to grab onto that could pull me forward. And so quite honestly, I simply went because nothing else anybody was talking about was about the future. And I was like, if I sit here and just wallow in this grief and like keep doing the things I've been doing, I won't survive. I needed something to just push me forward. So I said yes in that meeting. First time meeting him, he was like, you should just move out here and come work for me. Because I lived in New York.

And I was like, okay. So I go back to that house and I fly back to New York. And I'm like, ma. So my mom had come through her battle and was healthy, was recovering. And I was like, so I quit my job at Pepsi and I'm going to move us to LA. And she was like, the hell you are. But thank God she's a trusting person. And she was like, OK, I'm coming with you because you're probably having a mental breakdown, which I probably was.

And then she was like, okay, I'm coming with you because you're probably having a mental breakdown, which I probably was. But yeah, I moved and I walked in with all the confidence of feeling like, okay, this is going to be the savior for me, provide for my family. Because I was also facing the tremendous pressure of thinking like, okay, now I've got a four-year-old that I've got to support by myself. I had not planned on being a single mother. That was not the agreement I made. And so I went in feeling like, okay, I'm going to make this work. And literally it was like my first day, I signed the paperwork. They shut the door.

Jimmy's like, come with me. I walk into the room. It's like, Dre, it's Trent. There's some people I don't know, but they look vaguely familiar. Now I know it's like Eddie Q and Tim Cook. He's like, so we're going to be acquired by Apple. What? The first day or first week? It was the first

week. It was like day four or something. In the course of two months after that, we were acquired by Apple. It was like transitioning, getting prepared for that. By June, we're sitting in the Apple keynote and being announced that apple is going to acquire beats wow and then we took the next year to build apple music and create a new brand wow which i can't express enough how important that moment of time was for me i'm sure to give me something

else to look, to just keep propelling me forward. And that's really what, you know, it's like I've talked to a lot of people now who, especially women who've gone through something like this, you know, lost their spouse. And the number one question is always like, how do you make it out of this period?

And my advice is that like, listen, I don't know what's going to help you because grief is different for everyone, right? for me i needed the future i needed the future in order to pull myself out of the current grief right and so that period of time i'm always grateful for because it just meant that like i was i was building building towards something yeah wow yeah wow and so we're there for a few years. Yes. Three years,

three and a half years. And then. And what was the biggest lesson you learned from Dre or Jimmy? The biggest lesson from Jimmy is like how he connects with people. You'll be in his office and you will feel like the most important person. Yeah. Every time, you know,

he's that way with artists. They trust him, you know, implicitly. Not because like he's always made the right call, although he'll tell you he's that way with artists. They trust him, you know, implicitly. Not because, like, he's always made the right call, although he'll tell you he always made the right call. He cares. Yeah, he cares.

I mean, he goes the extra mile. He'll make the phone calls. And he's urgent. If you're sitting in a meeting, you know how sometimes you're, like, in a meeting, people are like, yeah, so next steps are let's get a meeting with this person. He's like, on the phone now. Don't ever go into a meeting with Jimmy and pretend like you're going to come out of there

with like some next steps you got to do later you better be on the phone in the meeting be like actually just give me one second let me call let's do this now yeah you know what I mean

and get the answer and so the biggest lesson from him was about urgency and then Dre it's about maniacal focus you know like just the focus the focus the focus like the focus, the focus.

And knowing that you don't want anything to come out that you don't feel proud of. He does not care about your pressure or your timeline. Yeah, it took him like 10 years to do his album. If it doesn't feel good, it's not coming out. You know how hard that is? That's difficult in the face of so much pressure, outside pressures from everything. When you got some resources and money you can yeah be more patient but yeah there's still there's still pressure because you know people are making their living based on the thing you're going to produce expecting you something yeah wow yeah there's disappointment from your fans and from

all kinds of people who talk about you question your talent question your sanity and you're sitting here like but the beat's not right yeah yeah wow wow and so you had a great experience there beats and then you transitioned to uber a few months ago yes three months why did that transition happen why not stay at apple and yeah well i definitely was on a trajectory at apple i'd done the keynote which was great and getting lots of praise for that and then again divine intervention I met Ariana Huffington

at a dinner she's great oh she's awesome we've had her on a few times oh my god I love her so much and she's another person actually

talking about lessons with people who also makes you feel like you're the most important person she does that she connects and she won't let go until you're done

with the conversation you know what I mean she's great it's such a great thing any case I was talking to her because she joined the board of Uber. Because of all the work I've done in pop culture and blah, blah, blah,

like the Uber had just happened when I met her. Oh, it did? Yeah, it just happened. Because of the, that's a whole other thing. The travel brand, yeah, there's so many things. But you know, what was interesting to me was the fact that Uber didn't do anything differently than Lyft or anybody else. Everybody did the same thing.

So why did Uber get painted with this horrible brush? That's a branding problem. Yeah. The story they were telling. Yes. The stories that were happening. They weren't telling their own story. Everybody else was telling it for them.

And so that's actually what I said to Ariana. We had a very philosophical conversation about brand marketing, what it meant. And then obviously, like, we've been talking about the evidence of pop culture driving business or destroying it. Yeah. And me saying, I was just like, hey, listen, I'm like, I feel like I'm the foremost expert in this. Wow. I know what I'm talking about. And she was like, would you mind, like, telling Travis this stuff?

Like, whatever you're telling him. I'm like, yeah, okay, no problem. When I have time. And so, lo and behold, Saturday afternoon, she's like, come to my house. He's there for an hour. And I go in and I meet with him and it turned into eight hours. Wow. We're just pontificating on the situation.

And literally, I left there thinking, I think i have to go work there oh my gosh yeah oh my god am i actually gonna do this like i'm gonna quit my job and go work here and like i try to shake it i liken it to like fall in love with the wrong guy you know what i mean where you're just like oh my god i really like him you're right you kind of felt like your time had passed at apple or with beats you're kind of with Beats. No, I definitely had things to do. But I just couldn't pass up the opportunity. I'd already been in this amazing position to recreate or to create a brand actually from scratch because we created Apple Music from scratch. Which in a marketer's world is Mount Olympus.

It's like you have all the resources you need. You can access anything. I mean, you're living the life you know what i mean you're good yeah yeah and the thought that like i could have the opportunity to have yet another brand on my record that says i did that like i i did i brought it back or i yeah it's just too sweet like i couldn't i couldn't taste good yeah man delicious and then plus and I've been pretty open about this which is that like I am unhappy with diversity and inclusion in Silicon Valley yeah it is unacceptable yeah and so it's like you're the only black person probably right I mean especially black woman you know what I'm saying I'm like there

are lots of black people everywhere who are talented black women are currently the most educated group in the United States of America. Why can't they get jobs in Silicon Valley? Doesn't make any sense. Makes no sense. So if there's going to be a brand that's going to be vilified for its lack of diversity, which, by the way, the numbers are greater than most Silicon Valley companies, including some that I've worked for.

Right, right. And people want to paint that as the scapegoat. Fine. Let's do that. Because once we can prove that all of these conditions that are being painted is like the horrible things that are happening in this company, and we can fix that, guess what's going to happen? It's going to come for the rest of them. Right, right. Exactly.

It's like, then I want every company in Silicon Valley. There will be no reason why anybody can't do it if these folks who have been under the ground vilified and beaten up for all of these horrible practices culturally if they can rise from that there is no reason why anybody else can't and if there's anything that's that i want to be my legacy for this time period in silicon valley it's that now i've forgotten like okay change the brand and create the brand i'm gonna do that because i do that well i could do that no problem but the real legacy needs to be breaking this cycle like that that has to be it like i can't i can't leave this and not have made

a difference so that the pipeline is full of people who don't look anything like the people who are currently in cell time right right well you're doing it you're amazing this is awesome we're gonna do it okay this is the final three questions oh gosh final three questions i want to ask so much more but speed round or how does this work i mean no okay whatever whatever it can be fast it can be be slow. It can be whatever makes sense. The first one is called The Three Truths. So I ask this to all my guests at the end of every episode. Yes.

Imagine this is your last day many years from now. And you've accomplished everything you want. You've made all the change and impact in the world that you want to make for your legacy. You've done whatever you want personally, family-wise, whatever. You've done it. Yes. Lived a full, rich life. Amen.

But for whatever reason, all the information you put out there, your speeches, the books you write, whatever it may be, they're all erased from time. So all people have is this piece of paper that you're about to write down, three things you know to be true. And you're going to write down three things you know to be true. And you're going to write down three things you know to be true, and that's all that the world can have to remember you by. What would you say are your three truths or three

lessons that you would share with the world? Okay, well, maybe this is a little unfair because I actually just gave... Yeah, I just gave a speech yesterday for Forbes Under 30 Summit where I talked about my five truths. Perfect, so top three okay top now see now see why you got to do that okay top three i've talked a lot about it so

one is to follow your gut it will never steer you wrong like don't make the list the pros and cons and weigh it out because the only reason we do those things is because you're trying to talk ourselves into something we know we shouldn't do that's the only reason you do the list you know because you're like oh yeah this makes sense yeah i'm gonna rationalize to myself but it's like your gut told you don't do that thing and you're writing down a list as to why you should that's one two bring your whole self to every situation whether it's work or relationship or whatever else bring your whole self right because i think especially in work and in corporate life particularly,

we always feel like we need to hide part of it because the evidence of what is successful most of the time looks nothing like us. And I'm not saying us as in black women, I'm just us in general, anybody. There's a very slim definition of what success is supposed to be and what it looks like. So we often shave the sides of ourselves that are not that thing.

If it doesn't benefit any of us. And isn't the world so much more bright and colorful and amazing if we were to bring all of us and our whole thing to the work? And then the third, the last one, to be kind. Be kind to ourselves and to other people. I explained about that moment on the bed with my husband on our anniversary where it's like, you know, I just wish I'd been more kind to him. Yeah. And to myself in the process of our relationship. So be kind. Yeah. Those are great truths. Those are great truths. I want to acknowledge you for a moment,

for your incredible uniqueness and your voice and for making an impact on so many people by breaking barriers, by standing up for what you believe in, following your intuition, and showing other people what's possible for their life. I think it's unbelievable the example you're setting on how we should all be living our lives. So thank you for showing up powerfully and fully as yourself. Don't make me cry because I cry easy. You know what I mean? Before I ask the final question,

where can we connect with you online, or how can we support your mission or anything that we want us to be aware of? Where do you hang out the most on social media and your website? I hang out on social media, mostly on Instagram, Badass Boz. Badass Boz. Correct. B-O-Z. That's correct. Yes.

And on Twitter, same name. That's mostly where I share anything, everything. I've been told I overshare. I don't care. Got it. You'll find me like living my truths or in a bikini. Hey, you know what I'm saying? Open for all to see.

No problem. That's where I am. Cool. Cool. Awesome. Is there anything you'd like us to take action on? Yeah. I want everyone to cheerlead this moment in time for what I'm doing in Silicon Valley.

I think there are enough people who point fingers and say that there's something wrong. There's not enough people applauding the small wins. And that's what we need, encouragement. Because when you have encouragement, then other people feel emboldened to help. Yeah. When there's so much finger pointing and bad sort of stories and people downing it, then no one wants to help. So I would ask that people help in that they encourage. I recognize that the company and some of the actions are not always positive.

But let's applaud the good things. Let's be loud about that. Of course. As loud as we are when it's negative. Right. That's great. That's great. The final question is what's your definition of greatness?? Oh, definition of greatness. Oh my God, that is such a hard question.

Jesus, Lord on high, Father God, help me. My definition of greatness. It's like living at 100%, the totality of things, that whole circle unbroken. There's so much power in that. It's like, have you ever tried to squeeze a circle and try to break it? You really can't, because it's like the pressure is on every side. You know, you can break a stick. We can't break a circle when you try to apply pressure to it.

And I feel like the same thing is for our lives. If you, like, are living your whole complete truth, the whole completeness of yourself, you can't break. I'm not going to break. Because I'm living my whole circle. That's great. Boze, you're amazing. I'm so glad we got to connect.

Thank you very much. You're like a sister now, so thank you for being on. This will tell you. We're in. We're connected. This is so great. I appreciate you. Thank you very much. together i'm in i'm saying that now my tension is in the air let's do it seriously i'm gonna come build a school with me yes let's do it a girl's academy okay okay well i work with pencil promise and they build schools their own way but

yeah oh okay yeah so let's do it with an organization i'm down for it we're doing it i'm in oh my god it's amazing cool Boz thank you appreciate you thank you so much this is great

this is awesome there you have it my friends I hope you enjoyed this one if you did make sure to share it with your friends on Instagram on Twitter

Facebook take a screenshot of this podcast right now and tag me at Lewis Howes and tag Bozema, lewishowes.com slash 559. Go ahead and put that link out there online. If you go there, you'll see the full video interview

over on YouTube, on the show notes, and all the other resources that we talked about. Make sure to dive into Bozema's world and learn more about her. She's a powerful human and I really enjoyed this interview. There you have it guys. Again, if you enjoyed this, make sure to let me know. Send me some love on social media and tag Bozma as well because she is doing some amazing things in the world. The resource link for this is lewishouse.com slash 559. And as always, you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.