The School of Greatness - 571 From Drug Addict to Whole30 Founder: Melissa Hartwig

Episode Date: December 2, 2017

"I FELT LIKE I HAD TO CHANGE EVERYTHING ABOUT ME AND MY LIFE TO STAY CLEAN” So many of us feel like we struggle with our weight. We search for diets and end up getting frustrated with them because the rules are hard to follow or they simply don’t work because there’s no 'one size fits all' solution. A while back I discovered a great, easy to use program called Whole30. It explains, step by step, how you can find the diet program that works for you. There’s a lot of people out there whose diet is making them sick. Maybe your friends can eat grains, but you can’t. Whole30 is designed to help you find exactly what YOU need. This system is one that felt so good I took it way past the 30-day mark. But the woman behind it is even more incredible.

This is episode number 571 with number one New York Times bestselling author and creator of The Whole 30, Melissa Hartwig. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Bernard Williams said, man never made any material as resilient as the human spirit. Ah, we've got a great one today with Melissa Hartwig,

who is a certified sports nutritionist who also specializes in helping people change their relationship with food and create lifelong healthy habits. She is the co-creator of the original Whole30 program, a four-time New York Times bestselling author, and she has been featured by Dr. Oz, Good Morning America, The New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Detail Shape, Outside Self,

and ranked number 27 on the greatest top 100 most influential people in health and fitness in 2017. She has also presented more than 150 health and nutrition seminars worldwide and is a prominent keynote speaker on social media and branding, health

trends, and entrepreneurship. And her new book, The Whole30 Day by Day, Your Daily Guide to Whole30 Success, is out now. Now, this book has been transformational for my life and all the people that have gone through this program with me. It's been blowing my mind the results they're getting. So make sure you guys check that out. And what we covered today are Melissa's journey into and out of drug addiction and how she got clean. Also, how a growth mindset can help you let go of bad, negative, toxic habits.

The experience of doing a book tour with her ex-husband while they were separated and no one even knew what that was like. This was an interesting conversation. Also, the healthy way to get through a breakup, even when it's not a marriage, but also if it is a marriage. And also, what works to build a successful connected online community? Melissa's built a massive community online of raving fans that buy anything that she sells. So this is a powerful one, guys. And make sure to share it with your friends. Take a screenshot right now and post it on your Instagram story, lewishouse.com slash 571.

Link that up and tag Melissa Hartwig to let both of us know that you're listening so we can connect to you over on Instagram or Twitter. Once again, I'm very excited about our guest today. It's none other than the one and only Melissa Hartwig. Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness podcast. We have Melissa Hartwig in the house. Good to see you. So good to see you, too. Thanks for having me.

I'm excited. You're my first interview that I've done in a few weeks because I've been on my book tour. Yeah. So I'm finally back home in the studio. It feels good to be back and connecting with someone. So I'm very excited about this because you're the co-creator of Whole30 Program, which I started, I think, a year ago. I can't remember if it was a year ago, eight months ago. My girlfriend, Jen, told me we should check this out. And I was like, man, I have to give up so much, right? But I did. And I looked the best and felt the best I've ever felt. I remember having a photo shoot like a week and a half into it. And these photos were, I just looked so lean and healthy

and clear. And I was like, wow, this is amazing. And I remember when I went to Whole Foods to look for foods, I saw Whole30 stamped on the bacon that we were just talking about. And I was like, wow, this person has really created something. If the food industry is getting behind it and putting labels on their food and the packaging. So congrats on everything. Thank you. You've sold, what, 2 million copies?

Or no, a million copies. Just a million. You can put it out there, though, for two. You'll get to 2 million. You sold a million copies in two years is what I meant to say. And you've got a new book coming out called The Whole 30 Day by Day, Your Daily Guide to Whole 30 Success. Now, how is that different than The Whole 30?

So The Whole 30 is kind of like your go-to practical application, how to do the program. So for people who want to go in and they need all the help that they can get with planning and preparing, we teach them how to do the program. So for people who want to go in and they need all the help that they can get with planning and preparing, we teach them how to cook. So like how to grill a chicken breast, how to roast some vegetables, all the basics, and then give them a bunch of recipes. So it's kind of like your step-by-step, like this is how to do the program. And Whole30. Exactly. Yeah. But what I've learned along the way with like watching hundreds of thousands

of people go through it is that people want as much help as they can get, especially around food because food is so emotional. So whole 30 day by day is essentially the last two and a half years of me watching people go through the program, observing what they experience on any given day and figuring out how to support them on that specific day. So it's like part field manual, part guided reflection. It's motivation and support and tips and tricks and habit and a little habit research and a testimonial related to that day for all 30 days of the program. And then there's some guided reflection because the more closely connected you stay to the process, the better chance you have of making that habit stick. So it's kind of like

your field manual, your companion to the whole 30 book. Got it. Now, you started this program in 2009, correct? Yeah. But why did you wait six years to come out with a book? Well, the first book, It Starts With Food, came out in 2012. Got it. So three years. And It Starts With Food is kind of like the science behind the program, the why. So if you're a Gretchen Rubin questioner and you want to know why you're doing what you're doing

and have to understand the science behind it, that's the book you start with. But it took three years for that book to come out because we were just making the program good and wanted to get it in people's hands and see how it did and see how we could support them. And we weren't thinking about selling books. We were just thinking about how many people can we reach. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. And then you decided to come out with Whole30. Yeah. Why did you come out with the book at that time? So 2012, we wrote It Starts With Food. It explained a bit about the Whole30, how to do the program, some of the science behind it. And we were like, cool. Okay. Phew. We're done. Yeah. Nobody's going to need, this is it. You can do the Whole30 and we're going to be able to talk about other stuff. We can talk about exercise.

We can talk about sleep, whatever we're interested in. And then everyone who read it starts with food was like, this is awesome. I love knowing science. But I like this one chapter of the Whole30. Can you tell us more? Yes. How do I actually do the program? And we were like, oh, people need way more information. So that's where... Everything I've ever written is because the community has said, I need this to be successful. And I'm like, okay, I can write that for you. Cool. So that's where the Whole30 came from, was people saying like, okay, cool, but tell me exactly what to do. Right.

Now, did you expect it to be as big as it is? No, of course not. You're like, people are going to love this. It's going to be amazing. It's going to be bigger than paleo. Oh, goodness. No. I mean, I knew it was a good program because we had a lot of people coming back reporting

really similar remarkable results and I had remarkable results. So I knew it was good. But no, of course not. You never think about writing a book or having it grow or seeing your logo on bacon and whole foods. Crazy, right? How many food products is your logo on that you're aware of? I feel like we have about maybe 70 or 80 Whole30 approved partners. No way. That have your logo on their food. It's really crazy. That's insane. You're going to see it in- 70 partners. Yeah.

On packaging. So I don't think everyone has it on their packaging. Maybe it's on their website or something. But yeah, yeah, yeah. We've got some big brands in the works. And we're really selective about who we choose to partner with too. Really selective. Now, do they reach out to you or do you reach out to them?

They reach out to us always. No way. They say, can we partner with you and say this is Whole30 approved? Yes. Yeah. Is it because they're getting requests, so many requests online or in their service box? It's like, hey, is this Whole30 approved? I think so.

We're working with a really big brand right now who just reformulated their bacon so that it was no sugar added. And I outreached to them and said, did you do this with Whole30 in mind? And they were like, yeah, we want to partner with you. And it's in the works. It'll probably be out in January. Yeah. It's like, we're changing things. And I wonder if people are buying those products more. Oh yes, of course they are. Like, oh, I can't have these other things. I can only have this. Because here's the thing. Whole30 is kind of lowest common denominator. If you're paleo,

if you're primal, if you're gluten-free, if you're dairy-free, if it's got a Whole30 label on it, you know you can eat it. So it's sort of like you get that stamp of approval and it opens up that food to a variety of different populations, not just people on the Whole30. Wow. So, yeah. Now, why did you get into this in the first place? Just the search for food and healthy living in the first place. Well, okay. I wasn't always super healthy and I kind of came to fitness and health when I got out of rehab for

drug addiction. So I spent my college years basically high for about four and a half years. What type of high? I was an equal opportunity user. Anything at all? I didn't have a drug of choice, which I think is unusual according to my rehab intake counselor. I only dated drug dealers for like three years and they had access to a lot of things. And so I basically like did everything I could get my hands on. Where'd you go to school? I got really lucky. University of New Hampshire.

All the drug dealers up in New Hampshire. I mean, there are drug dealers everywhere and I could find them if, yeah, wherever I was. What was the draw to dating drug dealers? When I found drugs, it was like the thing I was missing or looking for to help me sort of run away from some stuff that I wasn't dealing with. And having access to that all the time just basically kept me oblivious. What were those things you were running from?

It all started when I was a teenager and experienced some sexual abuse by someone who was really close to me. And it was a lot of like manipulation. And I was really, it was my first experience with sex and I was really young and it was someone I was supposed to be like trustworthy. And I didn't tell anyone for a really long time. And when I finally started telling people, they didn't handle it super well. And I felt really abandoned. Yeah. It's this whole big, long thing. How did they not handle it well?

They just made you wrong? A little bit. I feel like some of the people who were the closest to me who should have taken care of me were so overwhelmed by what to do with this information that they just chose to pretend it didn't exist, which left me feeling really abandoned. And so I was very young. I wasn't self-aware at all. I didn't really know what to do with this information. And so I was looking for something to not keep me here. Recover and yeah.

And I tried drinking and that didn't work. I didn't like it. I tried not controlling other things in my life. And when I found drugs, I was like, oh, okay, cool. You feel better. This is what I do now. Yeah. Wow. So when did you start? When you were like 17, 18? No, I didn't tell anyone about the abuse until I was about 18. And I didn't start taking drugs

until my freshman year of college. So it was about 19. And then I picked it up fast. What gave you the courage to even tell someone? Because I never had the courage to tell anyone. Yeah. I've read your story. It was necessity. This was a person who was in my life. He was very close with my family. Wasn't a family member, but a close family. No, he was a family member. Yeah. He would just continue to act like nothing was wrong.

Really? And I would be expected to just continue to do things. And he showed up at my house one day to pick me up to go for a drive. And I basically freaked out and told my dad was home. And I told my dad. No way. Yeah, I just couldn't. With him there? Yeah. Or I don't remember if he was there home and I told my dad. No way. Yeah. I just, I couldn't. With him there?

Yeah. Or I don't remember if he was there or if I sent him away, but basically I had like this giant freak out and then kind of told him and then it was this whole big mess. Your dad was like close to this person probably. Yeah. My dad almost killed him. No way. I mean, it was, yeah.

Right? Well, how did that make you feel? I didn't. He kind of stood up for you that way or no? Yeah. I didn't. I was, you know, it that way or no? Yeah, I didn't. I was, you know, it's funny because I've had conversations with my dad after the fact. And it's interesting reconciling what I remember as a teenager with hearing his story now.

I'm almost seeing it from two different viewpoints, like 16-year-old Melissa and adult Melissa. And I think at the time, I didn't realize kind of what was going on behind the scenes with how my parents were choosing to handle it and stuff. All I knew was that like something went horribly wrong and I didn't know what to think about it and I didn't know how to handle it. And it was probably my fault in some way. And so I don't think I was even aware of how it was being handled. I just know I felt really like lost. Yeah. Yeah.

Wow. I've literally never talked about that before. Wow. Were you able to talk about it felt really like lost. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I've literally never talked about that before. Wow. Were you able to talk about it more with your dad or was it just kind of like... Yep. Yep. I talk with him quite a bit about it now, very openly, and I feel really good about it. He's been incredibly supportive. That's good. Yes. It's really good. But other people in your family weren't supporting you is what you're saying. Family dynamics are really hard. I'll just be diplomatic about that. And it can be really hard when you take a look at something like that, when you really look at it,

you have to accept a whole lot of information about what was going on at that time and the way you reacted and the truths that you learned as a kid. And like, it's complicated. I will say everyone did the best they could. I truly believe that. I really think they did the best they could. And I'm a parent now. And I think about how I would handle that situation. And like, you just don't know. Yeah, it's crazy. It's unfathomable. It's crazy, right?

It is. One in four women, one in six men. Yeah. Sexually abused. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. It is.

I feel like I was having a conversation the other day with someone who said that they will never have like a babysitter. They're only going to have like, you know, the grandmother or like a family member. But even then it's like, who knows? No, you can't. You never know. I know. You never know. And that's the hardest part, right? I don't expect anyone to have been able to like, you can't see something like this coming, you know, right after that event, I became kind of a wild child. Like I was a good kid.

I studied super hard, got straight A's, was like, read my books and like did what I was supposed to do. And then things kind of started going wrong. I was sneaking out of the house and lying to my parents. And like, in retrospect, if I have a kid and something like that happens, you have to ask like why the shift. Right. What's happening?

Yeah. But again, hindsight, right? Yeah. Hindsight. People, they did the best they could with what they had. Wow. Okay. So you went off to school, you found drugs, felt a feeling you were looking for. And when did the drugs, when did you realize like, oh, I have a problem or this isn't working for me

or this is not what I want to do anymore? Yeah. You do this thing to take you away from this other thing because this is a problem. And then this thing becomes a problem. And then you're like, oh crap, now I have two problems, right? So I ended up having to drop out of school because I wasn't doing well. I moved down to Virginia to live with my dad for a little while until my behavior down there became so erratic. Because I found a drug dealer in Virginia, too. No way. Of course I did.

Yeah. And my behavior down there became very erratic. So I moved back home with my mom. And I kind of ping-ponged around. And my mom had a new husband at the time who was like, you know, your daughter's on drugs, right? My mom has no experience with this and was like, no way, that can't be possible. And eventually the wheels started to come off my bus in a pretty serious way.

And I had a boyfriend I was living with at the time who, bless him. Drug dealer? Nope. Not a drug dealer. The guy that I picked up, the good guy. The good guy. And you made him wrong for everything. Probably.

Didn't you? I, I don't think I took very good care of him at the end. I don't think so, but he took good care of me. And there was one night where he just said to me, like, you need,

I'm going to get you help tonight or I'm leaving. Wow. And he did. He called and they had a bed for me and we literally went like in an hour. I was in their rehab facility. Wow. I know. Nice of him my favorite

ex-boyfriend that's great i do yeah that's great yeah i thought he stood for you me too and then what happened after that went to rehab got clean uh how long did it take like 30 days you're like impatient for four weeks and then outpatient for a month or two i had started working with a really great therapist who i worked with until like two or three years ago. Like we're talking, you know, many, many years of me working with this guy who really helped me kind of get through like the abuse and like unpack all of that stuff was clean for a year and then relapsed for a month or so. And then pulled myself out of my hole, said, okay. By yourself? Yeah. Yeah. You realized like, oh, this isn't working. Yeah. This is not okay. And then- What type of drugs are we talking here? Yeah.

You realize like, oh, this is the marking. This is not okay. And then. What type of drugs are we talking here? I did a lot of, I never shot up and I never smoked crack. Those were the two. Got it. I did a lot of heroin.

I did a lot of ecstasy. I did a lot of hallucinogens. I smoked a lot of pot, like a lot of pills. Yeah. Basically whatever. Yeah. Okay. But it was when I got clean for the final time, which was like 2000 that I found fitness and nutrition and healthy addiction, right? Maybe for a little while I like over exercise, but that modulated itself really

quickly. Yeah. I, I just, I felt like I had to change everything about me and my life to stay clean. I had to get new friends. I got rid of clothes. I stopped listening to certain music. I moved. I started going to the gym. I made new girlfriends who like, my goal was basically for me to tell people about my addiction story and have them be like, what, I can't picture that.

Like that was what I wanted, was to remove myself so far from that situation. You changed your entire environment and everything you did. I did. That's great. Yeah, growth mindset, right? I didn't know it at the time,

but that's what I was doing. I was embracing like this massive growth did. That's great. Yeah. Growth mindset, right? I didn't know it at the time, but that's what I was doing. I was embracing this massive growth mindset. This was 2000. So you got into fitness and then nutrition. And when did you start to feel like, okay, I'm back on track to a normal lifestyle or a fulfilling lifestyle? I don't know that it was ever a moment. I just know that the farther along I got, the more I felt really settled in my new life. The more I felt like I had really good coping mechanisms. I still have some buffers in place still. I'm 18 years from using drugs, right? I'm almost 18 years clean and I still won't keep narcotics in my house. So when I had my son, I had an emergency C-section and they gave

me pain pills and I gave them to his dad. And I said, you keep these. You don't tell me where they are. You only give them to me if you think I need them, right? Protective. Just protective. Otherwise, you can go right back into... I just want to create as much of a buffer between me and that behavior as possible. That's smart.

But there was definitely a point where I was like, okay, I'm definitely a new person. I can't imagine no matter how bad or crazy things get that I would go back to that. Wow. And it took a go back to that. Wow. And it took a few years. Yeah. Okay. And so then you became a nutritionist, right? Yes.

Sports nutritionist. I was running a CrossFit gym. I was traveling with CrossFit, coaching people in kettlebells. So you got into this before CrossFit was big, right? You were kind of like early stages? Kind of in the beginning, yeah. 2005, 2006, earlier stages. Yeah.

Wow. A friend of mine that I played college football with beginning, yeah. 2005, 2006, earlier stages. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. A friend of mine that I played college football with won the CrossFit Games, I think in 2008 or 2009. Yeah. Graham Holmberg. I don't know if you know that man. Oh, I don't know him. Yeah.

He was the guy before Rich Froning. Yes. Went on to win like however many in a row. Yeah. So you got in early into that community and you created a CrossFit gym. You must have been one of the first CrossFit gyms, right? I was like the second one in New Hampshire. No way.

Yeah, it was cool. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And after you became a sports nutritionist, were you trying to get clients as a sports nutritionist or was it more the gym thing or what was the vision? I was just doing it part-time. I had like a nine to five job that I really liked

that I was like, I had gone back to college. I got my bachelor's and I was working in this nine to five job that I loved and I was advancing and like doing really well there. And I was just doing this like gym stuff on the side. Yeah. It was training clients, which I loved. I was doing some nutrition consulting, like very casually just based on my own experience and some of the research I was doing. Rob Wolf was kind of a mentor of mine. So when he had, yeah. So when he had overflow clients, he'd kind of send them my way and I was working with them. It was great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I learned a lot. And then I figured out the more I was doing with them with nutrition, the better results they got in the gym. Right. And my kind of area of interest was like working with women in nutrition, specifically telling

women it was okay for them to like eat more, which was I think a new concept for a lot of them, even in the CrossFit world at that point. Eat more, but certain things, right? Yeah. Like you don't have to starve yourself. Yeah. When I was on Whole30, I was eating pretty much anything all the time because I was missing out on sugar.

Yeah. I was like, give me an apple and almond butter. I was like dying. Yeah. Well, that's that emotional relationship that I discovered really early on too. That's crazy. So critical. Yeah.

Yeah. But then after a while, you start to like not need it as much at the end of the 30 days. I actually went, I think I went 45 days. I was trying to go, after 30 days of doing it, I was like, I'm going to do another 30. And I did 45, and then I kind of started to cheat a little, and then I was like, all right. Sure.

But it was amazing, and it felt amazing. I'm glad. Now, do you stay whole 30, 24-7, 365, or is this just like? Of course not. That's not the point. What is the point? So we talk about the Whole30 and then living your food freedom, right? And food freedom is not me telling you what to eat 365 days a year.

There is no one-size-fits-all diet. And all the exercise and diet gurus say this, right? Oh, there's no one-size-fits-all. You have to figure it out for yourself. And then people are like, cool, how do I figure it out? And the whole 30 is how you figure it out. It's you eliminate, you reintroduce, you compare your experience. And then based on what you've learned, you get to decide what's worth it for you in life after. And that's how you create the perfect diet for you. So that's what I've done. There's stuff that I bring back in on a really regular basis,

rice in my shoot, my sushi, no big deal. Hummus, no big deal. The occasional like glass of white wine, no big deal. And then there's stuff that I never eat because I know it messes me up so bad that it's just not worth it. And then there's like in between goat cheese.

It's like the worst for me. For some reason, it makes my stomach so unhappy. I know, but I don't miss it. Cause it makes me feel like junk. When I came back off the whole 30, I didn't,

I had like a thing of hummus and man, it messed me up. Yeah. Hummus can do that. But I think maybe cause I had like, I don't miss it because it makes me feel like junk. When I came back off the Whole30, I had like a thing of hummus, and man, it messed me up. Yeah, hummus can do that. But I think maybe because I was like, well, maybe because I had the whole jug of hummus, and so maybe that's why. Or maybe it was the pita bread that I had. I don't know, like a combination of everything. Maybe it's because of an empty stomach. Yes, and this is why reintroduction is so carefully structured,

because we want you to learn as much as you can from the experiment, right? Bring stuff back in really carefully and deliberately and figure out, you know, that way you're not asking yourself is it the hummus

or is it the pita bread? You know for sure. I probably do it the best way, but yeah. That's fine. That's fine. There are always opportunities.

But the thing is like so many people I talk to who go on the Whole30 get great results, you know, and it becomes a conversation. It's like a thing you can do together

with friends. Me and my girlfriend did it together. My entertainment lawyer did it and he got great results and then just keeps spreading, which is amazing. I feel like this is different. There's so many diet books out there or nutrition books out there, but I feel like this is one that's really sustainable for people and that people get great results and they can always come back to because it is like just the whole foods yeah it's like vegetables yeah and meat you know it's like it's really easy all you're doing is like picking from the shopping list you're not counting calories and you're not tracking you're not weighing and you're not measuring and here are like a thousand recipes you can pick from and you can

just put ingredient meals together if you want like once you get the hang of it it's actually pretty easy yes now i want to ask about because you started this with your ex-husband. You started this program. Was it your idea? Was it his idea? I mean, he was the one who suggested it in the first place. He's a physical therapist. He had been doing some research into dietary factors that impact rheumatoid arthritis because his little sister had RA and came across a paper from Lauren Cordain, who's like the paleo OG about lectins and certain foods. And as a physical therapist, he had had this shoulder injury that he just could not heal. And he removed some of these foods from his diet and his shoulder pain cleared up miraculously and never returned, which really got his attention. And then we,

he had, was eating a lot of beans. He was eating a lot of beans. He was eating a lot of oatmeal. He was eating a lot of grains. And that was the stuff he pulled out. And his shoulder pain got better. Yeah. So when we went to- Some people aren't affected by that, right? They're not affected by the grains or the-

Yeah. It affects different people in different ways to various degrees. And like you said- Probably at different stages of your life too. That also could be it, right? If you're experiencing a lot of life stress and you're chronically underslept and overtrained, then maybe those factors have more, right? This is the whole point of self-experimentation because there's no one-size-fits-all.

So we had gone to a seminar that Rob Wolf had given where he was talking about paleo, which was what Dallas had researched. And Rob was like, you know, just try it for 30 days. And that's basically what Dallas proposed to me. We were doing this really heavy Olympic lifting session and we were sitting around afterward and I was eating Thin Mints. I remember specifically like Thin Mints right out of the sleeve. I could have a whole box of Thin Mints. So good. And he was like, we should do this like 30 day squeaky clean. And the thing that made me a really good drug addict

also makes me really good at like taking on new habits. Cause I was like, okay, when do you want to start? And he's like now. And I literally handed the Thin Mints to my friend Zach and I was like, cool, let's go. And we did And he's like, now. And I literally handed the Thin Mints to my friend Zach, and I was like, cool, let's go. And we did. And that was the start of the very first full 30. And did you have it all figured out? Like, we're not going to have this, this, and this? It was really loosely based on the framework of a paleo diet.

But when I went back, so I blogged about it on my personal training blog back in 2009. And when I go back and read, it was super loosey-goosey, right? Like, don't eat this. Try to eat less sugar. It wasn't anywhere near. There were some oils in there. There was that, yeah. read, it was super loosey-goosey, right? Like, don't eat this, try to eat less sugar. Like, it wasn't anywhere near. There was some oils in there. Yeah, it wasn't super well-defined. But still got great results, it sounds like. It did. I got incredible results. But different results than what he... His was more mostly physical. Mine were mostly helping me identify a really unhealthy emotional relationship with food and helping me change that in a really permanent and profound way. Because I feel like when we have a structure, when we have guidelines,

then we can be creative within those guidelines. Yeah. In life and with food. I like that. Yeah. But as an artist, sometimes we're just like, okay, paint me a painting. Yes. It's hard to be creative. Yes. But when you say, I want you to paint me a painting with red, black, and green. Yes. And I want you to have circular motions painting with red, black, and green. Yes. And I want you to have like circular motions. Yeah. Then you can be creative and artistic with the structure. Yeah.

And the context. And I think when I had the context and the structure of the Whole30, it made me be more creative of how I could make my food. Yeah. Or the things that I could order. Now, it limited me in some ways, but it gave me structure. Yeah. And I think that structure creates discipline as well. Yes.

So. A lot of people find the rules of the program, which are very black and white, very on or off, freeing. Because as you said, it takes some of the decision fatigue out of their brain. It eliminates the need to white-knuckle willpower your way through every decision. We say no added sugar. So when you pick up a label and you read it, you don't have to think, is this two grams of sugar? Is that too much? Is it not enough? Is it better? Or is it worse? Like it's just sugar. Nope. It's out. And a lot of people find that very freeing, especially in

the beginning, because when you're trying to create a new habit or change a habit, it's like when I went to rehab, they stick you all in a box and you're isolated from the rest of the world because in the beginning you're really fragile. And it's kind of similar. There's a lot of addiction and recovery language built into the whole 30, which I didn't even realize until kind of after the fact. Yeah, of course. Now, when did you get married? What year was that? Oh my gosh. You don't remember. I should remember. 2011? 2011.

I think 2011. The book came out in 2015. Yeah, the whole 30 book, yeah. And when did you get divorced? Boy, we separated three years ago in October. And then the divorce took a year to finalize. So before the book came out, you got divorced or separated. Let me tell you this. Yes.

So writing a book must have been interesting. We separated before the book was written. And then you wrote the book together? No, I wrote the book. Oh my gosh. But then we had to do a book tour together. No way. When no one knew that we were separated.

Shut up. Yeah, we did. And listen, we didn't want anything to detract from the book. Our publishers had invested a lot in us. Of course. We wanted to make it about the book and the community Not about us personally We never made it about us personally

We came together and nailed it He and I both did an incredible job We put it aside We did I don't think we were disingenuous about it We weren't pretending to be this super happy You weren't like a lovey-dovey, holding hands. Nope. But when it came time to go out and meet people and talk, we did it. We did a great job,

and I'm really proud of us for doing that. But it was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do in my life. Holy cow. Yeah. You would think that maybe that would bring you guys back together, since you guys were able to do something. Oh, yeah. No.

Nobody was under that impression. How was this for you then, writing a book with a partner that you're separating with and having whatever emotional challenges you're both having? So I'm assuming he had his own emotional challenges about you. Of course. You had stuff about him. Yeah, of course. Two sides of every story.

I don't even know what happened. It doesn't matter. But how did you emotionally handle this with your food and nutrition and working out during this time? Were you able to stay Whole30 approved essentially, or were you kind of like a mess inside with this emotional turmoil? It was the most emotional and like stressful period of my life. And I have- And you're pregnant, right? Or are you- No, we had had the baby at that point. Our kid was one. So I mean, I was a new mom,

but I have never been happier. I've done so much therapy, like so much therapy. And all of the therapy we did over the course of our marriage, trying to make things work, and individually prepared me for this time period, which was, this is like the most stressful event I could ever imagine going through, and I can still choose to be happy. And I did. So I did well. Wow. I focused on my- You didn't break down and like- No. I mean, no. Anytime I had periods of either resentment or anger or frustration,

they were very short-lived. I was able to process them and work my way through them. I was taking good care of myself. I was taking good care of my son. I had good relationships with my friends. It was one of the happiest periods of my life, which sounds so strange, but it was. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was when I feel like my performance in the gym went up and I started back at yoga again and like, yeah, all of this new stuff. Just, it's hard, you know, when you're trying so hard to make a relationship work and we were both trying hard to make it work, you give up so many pieces of yourself in an effort to kind of compromise

and like get this thing off the ground. And then once it was clear that it wasn't gonna work, I felt like, okay, now it's time to find me again. And that felt good. It felt really good. Now, so you guys were separated before the book came out. Yeah. Why did you keep your last name guys were separated before the book came out. Yeah.

Why did you keep your last name? Yeah. Before the book came out, why wouldn't you change your name back? I had an opportunity. Do you have a big platform already, personally? Yeah, that was basically it. I had a conversation. And it seems so weird to say, like, my agent helped me decide whether I should change my name back to my maiden name after I divorced. But I had a conversation with her saying, can I go back? My last name is Urban. Can I go back

to Urban? And she was like, man, that's a tough sell. Every book you've ever written is under Hartwig. All of the whole 30 stuff is under Hartwig. That's how people know you. And I wasn't so well known. I'm not Glennon Doyle. We're like, she could change her last name to whatever she wants and people would know who she was. So I didn't have that opportunity. And my son's last name is Hartwig. So I don't love it. I will say I don't love it. But you could change it back now. Maybe I could. Maybe I could. Maybe I should have thought of that before the new book comes out. It's still time. It's not printed yet. It's true. Wow. Interesting. Do you feel like having control over your nutrition and

your fitness has helped you emotionally navigate divorce and the emotions of all that as well? Oh my gosh, yes. And like divorcing a human, but also divorcing in a business. Yes. Because you had to do both essentially, right? You did. Yes. And the business was way harder. The business was very challenging. I think personally we had both reconciled ourselves and that part was really easy and the co-parenting is easy and all of that stuff. Yeah, it was tough. Yes. In times of great stress, I'm a huge fan of controlling the things you can control. And the things I could control were the food I put in my body, how much I slept, at least making conscious decisions to like go to bed early and sleep, you know, and at least get

as much good sleep as I can and exercise in a smart fashion. Yeah. Not overexercise, not beat myself up, not kill myself, but like move my body in a way that felt good. So I did. What advice would you give to women going through divorce who have a tendency of emotional eating as a challenge for themselves just in general in life. And now they're going through a divorce, whether they're business partners or not, but they're divorcing

and going through this. What suggestions or strategies or tips would you have give for them? Yeah. For me, I think the thing that resonates the most is that people are reaching for food in these times of emotional struggles, but they're not, you don't want a cookie. You're looking for a connection. And I think people, especially at the end of a marriage, you've probably already isolated yourself a little bit from friends and family because when your relationship's not going well, it's really hard to socialize and pretend like it is, or you don't want to bring other

people down with all of your issues or they've been hearing about it for so long already. So you tend to pull back anyway. So you're missing these good in-person connections that can be so helpful with you processing and shifting. And instead, you're reaching for food. So my advice and what I tried to do in my own life was just stay as connected as possible to the people who really mattered. And I shared really openly. And we weren't always talking about my feelings or the divorce. Sometimes we were just going to a yoga class or

going for a walk and like, that was great too. But not isolating and like purposefully forging those connections can be so helpful. Yeah. It'll help you better. Who do you feel like does a better job with the whole 30 men or women? That's tough. So our audience is mostly women. And I think it's a couple fold. I think the diet industry in general is mostly driven by women. And as much as I wouldn't say the whole 30 is a diet and it's kind of where we fall, we connect with most of our readers via social media and women are far more likely to engage over social on a concept like this. I think what I hear from men is, oh yeah, I totally did the whole 30, but I never blogged about it. I never social mediated about

it. I never went on a forum and asked for support. Men tend to do a little bit better, maybe for two reasons. One, they tend to lose weight faster. Men do. They do. Yeah, for a number of reasons. They've got more muscle mass, testosterone. They tend to have, this is a very gross generality, but they maybe don't have as much or as deep of an emotional relationship with food as women do. I know men still have their emotional issues with food,

but from what I've observed, they don't tend to either run as deep or be as strong. Why is that? I don't know. You tell me. I don't know. I can throw down a box of donuts at any time. Yeah?

Yeah. And is it hard for you? Here's the thing. I can do it when I'm sad or emotionally distraught, or I can do it when I'm celebrating. Yeah. And be like, okay, we just did this. Yeah. Let's get a box of pizzas and donuts.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. So that's the thing. And then here's the thing. I just read this actually a couple weeks ago. Actually, JJ Virgin brought this to my attention. Yeah. She sent me an article about, it's about like essentially gender nutritional habits.

How for men, there's a way, a style of eating that's different than women. Yeah. In general. Sure. That's what I'm talking about. Yeah. Where it's competitive for men. Oh, interesting.

Where it's like, oh, I can eat more than you. Oh, yeah. You don't see a lot of women Doing like Food eating contests No no no Right it's like It's projecting your masculinity Of like

Oh I can beat you at this as well I can be like Bigger Or I can drink the beer Faster than you Or I can do these things Better than you That's true

Or Men do barbecues So we're all gonna have Lots of meats And all these other things Where women eat salads Yeah Or whatever Sure And they eat slower Yeah Maybe. So there's like this gender kind of like. I definitely don't want to insinuate that like guys don't have emotional relationships with food.

I think maybe where I was going with this was that women tend to be a little bit more like mind screwed when it comes to food because we've been fed the diet industry and the inspiration our whole lives. And that hasn't been as directed towards men, I don't think. So we've got the Cosmo magazines and the Glamours and all the other stuff and the media and the diet industry telling us that we're not skinny enough and we're not toned enough and whatever. So you add that to an emotional relationship with food and that can be really challenging. What advice do you have about women who are emotional eaters in general? How to like separate themselves from that or how to navigate it or accept it? I don't know what's even the best way to go about it. So like part of

it is biological, right? Like under periods of chronic stress, we crave sugar. It is biological. It is what happens in our system with our hormones when we are under stress and our body thinks that we need to run from the tiger or fend off the attack and we want quick and easy energy. That's a very simplistic overview, but part of it is biological. So, there's almost a piece of that that can be really freeing for people. Like, okay, you're going through a really difficult divorce and finances are tight and you're not sure where you're going to live. of course you're craving sugar, right? Of course.

So that's expected. So that can be almost comforting for people. Just the awareness of that. I think so. Understanding it. Yeah, right? Understanding kind of what's going on behind the scenes can make you feel less crazy.

Like, I don't really want this, but why am I craving it? Once I start eating, I can't stop. I think for some people, if your emotional relationship with food isn't to the point where you would consider yourself addicted or you're not eating specifically as a result of like some kind of unresolved trauma

or an issue, maybe doing a reset like the whole 30 can help where, you know, you're pulling this stuff out of your diet and physiologically and psychologically, we are giving you a reset from these foods that are making you crave and over consume and get you stuck in this cycle. Yeah. So that way you have better habits afterwards. Yeah. Do it for 30 days. Yeah. And then you're not as craving it as much.

Yes. And that works really well for some people. For others, I say like, just go talk to, you got to go talk to someone. It's about the food, but it's not about the food. It's about like all of this stuff that's coming underneath and behind the food. And like, you need to look at that. Right. That is sending you to the food.

Right. You need to release it. Yeah. You need to connect about it in a different way. Yeah. And I'm a huge fan of therapy. Any modality that happens to work for you, like these things, a lot of these things are too big to unpack yourself. Too big. Wow. What else are you excited about in your life right now? My son's amazing. He's four and a half and super fun. His own great little personality. And he's just getting to the age where I'm doing stuff with him instead of just toting him along everywhere,

which is cool. So he gets to tell me what he wants to do on a weekend and he loves being outside and hiking with me and stuff. So that's good. I feel like I have such an awesome network of friends right now. And guys and girls, which is cool. I never had girlfriends growing up. Really? Not really. Like the lone girl. Yeah. I don't know. I don't think, I think maybe I had some like defense mechanisms and now it's like, I like sharing with my girlfriends and like we get, yeah, we sit down and just like get into it.

There's not like, yeah. So that's, feels really good. I'm traveling a ton. I love what I do for work so much. I love it. Helping people. All of it. Yeah. All of it. Creating resources, meeting them, hearing their stories. Like, what do you need? What can I do for you?

Let me help. You know? I love it so much. It's super fulfilling. What would you say is missing for you? A solid, like, personal life or relationship. It's kind of the excuse that feeds it, right? Like, I've been in this period of work hustle where work is going really well.

And I've put out, you know, I've been writing books like crazy. Is your fifth book now or what? This is my, it'll be my sixth, but it's the second year that I will put out two books in a row. That's like crazy. And I don't have as much to do with the cookbooks, but like still. So work is going really well. So I'm focusing on work and I also have my kid and I sleep really well and I'm at the gym all the time and I do yoga all the time and stuff. And it's like, I date someone and then they're like, you're kind of hard to date. And I'm like, you know, because I'm not around

and I travel so much and stuff. So it's easy almost to say like, well, I'll just put that off for a little while. Except I haven't said that for a little while. So, you know, maintaining personal relationships can be tough for a number of reasons. So that's, I think that's what's missing. What's it gonna take for you to bring it into your life? Some pretty conscious pulling back of what I do for

work. Some pretty conscious, like this could be a good opportunity, but I'm going to pass on it for now and really focus on like connecting in my relationships. Right. Or do you feel like if you found someone that was worth pulling back for, you would? Maybe. Yeah, maybe. That's a good way of looking at it too. Let's just put it this way. For the first time in a long time, I'm like tossing it out there. Right? Like, okay, universe, I'm kind of ready for this. That's cool.

Yeah, I'm ready for like something that's a little more connected and a little more serious. It's been three years. I took the first year and a half and like didn't really date at all because I felt like I needed that space for me and that was great. But yeah, I think I'm ready for it. So maybe that's it. That's cool. Yeah. Awesome. What have you learned about building an online community around this topic? Because I think there's a lot of people who are experts or nutritionists or just in general coaches helping other people, but you've built like a great community through different groups on Facebook,

on social media, your website. What would you say has been helpful for you in navigating that and cultivating that? Yeah. So I think it's two things. I think number one, it is like serving them. And I stay incredibly engaged with my community, like me directly, right? I'm not, nobody's- So much time, right? It is so much time. I'm the same way. I'm like one by one replying to so many people. Yes. And it's the most important part of my job. It is how you build connection.

It's how you build loyalty. It's how you get great ideas for your business. Somebody says, oh, you should have this person on your podcast. And if 10 other people chime in, you're like, oh, they weren't on my radar, but I should. And then you're serving them and it's good for you and it's good for them.

Serve your community, cultivate the community. If you do that, everything else will follow. I have people now who are fiercely loyal to the program who I write a book and they're like, I'll buy it. I don't need it, but I'll buy it because I want to support you. And it's because I'm not trying to sell them stuff. I'm just serving them. But I think the more important thing is that behind the community or the marketing or whatever your social media is, you have to have a product that's really good. And I think a lot of people overlook that. They don't have a good product. Yeah.

You can have the flashy marketing camp. I mean, this is me telling you this. I feel silly even. But you know what I'm saying, right? You can have the best smoke and mirrors and show and prettiest Instagram feed. But if at the heart you don't have something that actually gives people what they need and what they want and works for them, then they're not going to stick around. And the point is to cultivate a loyal following, not just a flash in the pan set of followers. Right. It starts with the product.

It does. And then it's engagement and listening to what they want and serving them. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's slower and it's not as sexy and you maybe don't have these like giant gains, right? And maybe you're not getting all of these major offers to promote sponsored stuff on your, but like, I don't, I'm not a huge fan of that. Right. Exactly. I'm really not. I like to keep it really authentic and personal and yeah, that's what I like to do. What would you say is your greatest gift? Oh, I'm really good at speaking to people the way they want to be spoken to. Meaning, I can take a message and within not a very long period of time, I can figure out whether you need that message delivered tough love style or cheerleader style or science-y style.

I've cultivated that. I'm good at that. That's smart. Which is really helpful when you're trying to inspire change yeah I'm pretty good at that and the biggest weakness? really I tend to be a little dogmatic

especially in the beginning again I'm very black or white I'm very on or off it's taken me a long time to cultivate a sense of like nuance and context and empathy is something that I've had to like

work at and teach myself so i still struggle and sometimes fail and that but i'm not afraid to say like i was wrong here's where i was wrong sorry about that here's what i'm gonna do in the future right i'm not afraid to do that that's great yeah that's great okay final few questions this is called three truths okay so this is the last day for you many years from now. Yes. But all of your content is erased from history. Yeah.

And so there's no information that you shared available anymore. Yep. And you had a piece of paper and a pen to write down three things you know to be true about all your experiences. Yeah. The lessons you would leave behind. Yeah. What would you say are your three truths?

Oh, love yourself. Love more. God, those would be the only two, I think. Just love. More love. That's it. Okay, cool. Yeah.

Cool. What are you most grateful for right now? I'm the most grateful to be able to spend my days doing something that I love to do so much. This work. I feel like I have found my life's calling. This is what God put me here to do. I can't think of anything I could be more grateful for than that. Obviously my son and my family, but the fact that I feel like I'm living my purpose. Yeah. That's great. Well, I want to acknowledge you for a moment, Melissa, for your ability to transform your habits and get out of a dark place.

Because I think for some people, it's hard to get out of that. Once you've been addicted, once you've been in that space, it's really easy to keep going down that path. So for you to get yourself out of there and to have someone stand for you and you for to listen to that person and then to continue to make your life about transformation for others. It's really inspiring and powerful. So I want to acknowledge you for that. Thanks so much.

Of course. The new book is called The Whole30 Day by Day, Your Daily Guide to Whole30 Success. It's out now when this comes out. You guys can get it online. What's the website as well? Whole30.com. W-H-O-L-E and the number three zero. Whole30.com, at Melissa Hartwig. Make sure to check her out on social

media. Get the book. I've done the program. It's amazing. So I highly recommend it. And it's probably the best results I've gotten from anything. I mean, I've tried paleo. I've tried all these different things, but Whole30 felt like it was something I could continue to do and want to come back to do. That makes me so happy. Yeah. So I recommend it. With so much out there in the nutrition space that it's just hard to, something seems to always come out new every day, right?

I feel like this is something that's really sustainable because it's the best food that you're supposed to be eating. Yeah. So I highly recommend you guys check it out, Whole30.com. You can learn more about it there. The final question is what is your definition of greatness? Ooh, I think my definition of greatness is showing up as yourself, period. That's it. Whether I'm interviewing with you or whether I'm at home with my kid or whether I'm speaking in front of 400

people, like, am I showing up as me? Am I just Melissa right now? That's pretty great. Melissa, thank you so much. My pleasure. Thank you. Appreciate you. There you have it, my friends. I hope you enjoyed this one.

And if you did, make sure to share it with your friends. Let me know what you thought of this. Tweet me, at Lewis Howes. If you go to the show notes, you can watch the full video interview at lewishowes.com slash 571. All the resources, information about Melissa's new book. Again, make sure to pick up a copy of that. It'll be powerful for you going into the new year.

I highly recommend trying the whole 30. Every time I do it, I get transformational results. So check out the new book. Tag me, tag Melissa over on Instagram stories, Twitter, Facebook, all the good stuff. Share this out with your friends who you think might find this inspiring and helpful as well. Someone who's gone through a divorce, someone who's gone through addiction and overcome it, someone who is launching a business, someone who's looking to get healthy. All these things are added in this one. So make sure to check it out. As always, you were born for a reason. You were born and put on this earth for a purpose, a mission. You're at a season in your

life right now where you may know what that mission is, or you may have zero clue what it is. or you may have zero clue what it is. It's your moment to figure out what it is and to take action towards it. And if you already know what it is, then you know now is the time to step it up. As the year finishes, it's time to get clear on what you're going to create next year

and how you're going to build this momentum into next year. So get clear on your vision for what you want in your life, for your health, your relationships, your finances, your career, your spirituality, your play. Get clear, write these things down and start taking action on a game plan. That's how you're going to take this to the next level next year. And as Bernard Williams said, man never made any material as resilient as the human spirit. Remember how resilient you are.

You might have gone through some crazy things this year, but you are one resilient mother effer. It's time to step up. You got this. And you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.