The School of Greatness - 60 Glennon Doyle Melton: Overcoming Addictions and Courageous Vulnerablility

Episode Date: April 7, 2014

Glennon Doyle Melton of Momestary opens up with courageous vulnerability. The most personal fact is always the most universal She shares how she overcame addiction, maintains amazing relationships and gets deep with people in ways that simply intimidate many people. It's a powerful episode so make sure to listen to the very end.

This is episode number 60 with Glennon Melton. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Hey, all you beautiful greats out there.

Thanks so much for tuning in today on The School of Greatness, this little podcast that I created about a year ago that has taken off. And I'm so grateful and blessed that you are tuning in today because I have an amazing guest on who really opened up my heart during this interview. And her name is Glennon Melton, and she's a recovering bulimic and alcoholic. And for 20 years, she was lost to food and booze and bad love and drugs. And she suffered. And most importantly, her family suffered. And in this interview, we really kind of dive in and talk about some of the things that happened with addiction and people with addiction, how to really support people in that area

and what to do if you're feeling addicted and a lot of different things that we cover in this interview. And it's all about being courageous and being vulnerable. that we cover in this interview. And it's all about being courageous and being vulnerable. And we also talk about why so many sensitive people end up in a state of addiction and a brilliant way to see people who are not being seen. I think a lot of people end up in addiction because they don't feel seen or acknowledged, or they don't feel like they have control. And then they create this sense of control to be seen. So Glennon has an incredible blog over at momastery.com. It's, you know, it's extremely popular, thousands and thousands of comments on all of her posts. And it's been an incredible

site for people to go and connect and learn from. So I encourage you guys to go check out that and also check out her book, Carry On Warrior. And it's a New York Times bestseller. It's an extremely interesting and valuable book. I think all of you should pick it up and I'll have all that in the show notes. But this is an incredible woman, incredible human being, and I'm extremely excited to introduce you to her on this interview on the School of Greatness. And let's go ahead and jump in and dive in with the lovely, talented, vulnerable, courageous Glennon Melton. Thanks everyone again for coming on to the School of Greatness. I've got a new friend on who I'm very excited to introduce you guys to if you don't already Thanks everyone again for coming on to the School of Greatness.

I've got a new friend on who I'm very excited to introduce you guys to if you don't already know her. Her name is Glennon Melton and she is a New York Times bestselling author of a book called Carry On Warrior, Thoughts on Life Unarmed. And I'm very excited to have you on here. How are you doing? I'm so good. I'm so excited to be here. Thanks for inviting me. Of course. And we got introduced through mutual friend, Adam Braun, who's an amazing human being, and I'm super glad that he connected us. And right when I checked out your site for the first time recently, I guess it was about

a month or two ago, I watched your TEDx talk, and it really hit me in the heart and I really appreciate everything that you're creating in life and your entire journey and your willingness to be so open and vulnerable and share. So first I wanted to just acknowledge you for all that you've created in your life and what you're doing for so many people. I think it's amazing. Yeah. Oh, thank you. I mean, that's amazing for me to hear. I'm really just, all I'm trying to do is just stay healthy and stay honest. And it's become, I guess, a whole large group of people who are trying to do the same. So it has been really special.

Well, I think it's a little scary being honest and vulnerable. And, you know, I guess I'll speak for myself. You know, for 30 years, it was really challenging to be honest and vulnerable about things that I've been through in my life. And you are a recovering, I guess you'd say, bulimic and alcoholic and someone who's been a part of addiction for many years of your life. Isn't that correct? Yes. I mean, just all the life. Isn't that correct? Yes. I mean, just all the things. I call myself a recovering everything.

The highlights were the alcoholism and the bulimia. Yeah, I actually became bulimic when I was eight years old. Wow. I know. And I have always spent my life being so ashamed of that. And then I actually have learned from so many people that really started very early with eating disorders, epidemic. So yeah, I was, I became bulimic when I was eight and, you know, as addictions do, they just kind of started

morphing into other addictions from food to alcohol to heavy drug use. And then I didn't get sober until I was 25. And I found out that I was pregnant with my son. And yeah, then I just sort of, I wish I knew what happened that day. Because of course, people ask me every day, like, what was it that finally got you sober? I don't know. That day, I just kind of quit everything and then spent a few years just white knuckling it pretty much and then I found myself with three kids three little ones um at home and I just started panicking I just started to feel like family life was just so brutally hard for me and that kind of brought up a lot of feelings of shame and so you know you know, as most addicts know, that shame is the kiss of death for us. So I thought, what am I going to do?

What am I going to do to maintain, manage this life that I have and not slip back into my hiding place, which is addiction? So usually the best way to get out of your head is service. I knew that. So I told my husband, okay, what I'm going to, what I'm going to do is I'm going to, I'm going to save the world real quick. I'm going to save the world. So I started applying to volunteer places in my little town.

So I tried to volunteer at the homeless shelter and then at a nursing home and I kept getting rejected to volunteer. Why did you get rejected? So, I know, right? So I would make it through the interview and they loved me, but then I'd get to the end and they had to ask if he's ever been arrested

for this. And of course, I mean, it was my festive past. You know, things happened. And so I, you know, it was very hard to explain away to these people and they were so sweet but they couldn't let me volunteer there so i thought then i started feeling more ashamed oh my gosh i know right i couldn't even volunteer at a freaking nursing home so then i thought you know what the only thing i can do i can write i'm good at writing

and then oh i remember right at that time right when I was getting rejected from everywhere, the minister from my church, so at that time I was having some postpartum depression because I just had a baby. And the minister from my church asked me to tell my story on stage at church. So I was like, sure, I'll do that. But the thing is, if he thought my story was just the postpartum depression. But I actually got up on stage at church and told my whole story from like beginning to end. Oh my gosh. Yeah.

I'll never forget his face. I was watching him with his like jaw dropped down. And I just told my whole story and didn't leave anything out. You know, all about the addictions and just everything. Struggles in my marriage and how being a mother was just the most incredible thing I'd ever done, but also brutally hard for me, and how I struggled with not drinking and with not overeating.

And what happened was that after I did that, gave that speech for the first time, these people came up to me, tons of people came up to me after church who I had known forever, but I swear it was like, it was like meeting them for the first time. Like they just opened up, there were tears and lots of laughter and they just told me things that I'd never known about them. And I'd known these people for a long time, but I had never really known them. Because I'd never really introduced the real me, right?

Right. Well, you talk about, well, it's interesting because you talk about, you talk about these capes that you had on. Yeah. And these super, superhuman capes or the Superman capes that you had on that were protecting you, right? Mm-hmm. From showing your true self to these individuals at your church

or in your family probably, your friends. Probably no one actually knew who you really were until that moment you started becoming naked emotionally. And what were those capes that you talk about? Oh, gosh. I mean, I think your cape is anywhere that you go to protect your messy humanness, right? So, I mean, I think that perfectionism is a huge cape for people right now.

And I think that snarkiness is definitely, you know, whenever you feel hurt and so you deflect it or you run or you numb. For me, I mean, I've had a million cases of bulimia, alcoholism, drug use. Acting fine is a cape. I mean, just never going deep and revealing how you're really feeling or who you really are. You know, kind of living a surface existence,

I think, can be a cape. I agree. And I understand it because I really feel like people think that's a safe place to stay. You know, if we stay on the surface, we can't get hurt. But I also know that living on the surface is a very lonely place to be because, you know, the crazy thing is we think it's safe. So we just talk about surface issues. But everybody's surface issues are different.

Everybody has different, you know, financial situations and lives in different towns and their kids do different things. And so if we stay there, we feel lonely. But what I found by going 10 layers deeper with people is that the most personal stuff is always the most universal. So it's like the deeper you go, you're actually safer there. it's like the deeper you go, you're actually safer there because everybody has different experiences, but our, you know, our loss and our love and our, um, triumph and our pain, that's all exactly the same. So when you go there with people, you find, you find yourself in everyone. It's interesting. Cause I was going to say that you're probably, you know, people probably relate to you more than you think everyone can relate to you in some way from you feeling ashamed uh growing up for you know you talk about in your video

that you were always kind of like this awkward kid and you always looked at the cool kids and you wanted to see you know be like them but you weren't and i think everyone's kind of experienced that you know even if they were a cool kid they probably thought they were awkward you know but you revealing that creates a safe place for everyone else to join in the conversation and open up and kind of drop down their protective capes

as well. So it's really interesting because for me, this is like a whole new thing the last year of being so vulnerable and open. I never crossed my mind, right? You know, maybe like certain moments when someone else was vulnerable, okay, I'll open up and be vulnerable.

But it wasn't like, let me just share with you everything that's ever happened to me or just everything that I've ever been ashamed of. And I think it was hard for me to do that because I never really dealt with it myself. I never really connected with it myself I never really connected with myself and was okay with it and I guess kind of accepted what I'd been through in my my journey and I think maybe that's why people never open up is because they never take responsibility or love themselves enough to be like you know what that was part of my journey in my life and I accept everything that's happened to me, whether I've, you know, addiction or rape or sexual abuse or, uh, you know, any type

of mental illness, whatever it may be that, uh, people are just ashamed and they never fully take responsibility and say, at least it was part of my journey and I've learned from it. And you talk about actually the brokenness, the nakedness, the sensitivity that you're born with. You said that it's turned out to be your greatest gifts, right? Absolutely. I mean, I, I did an interview recently where the person who interviewed me, I brought up my addiction and the person who interviewed me said, Oh, you know, but that's in your past. So that's, that's behind you. Let's focus on the positive. And I was so upset about it.

I was so mad. And I couldn't figure out why I was so mad. So I didn't say anything. But the next day, I realized that I am so proud of being a recovering everything. Like, it's, you know, I don't think we know what's the good stuff and the bad stuff. Like, we think that bad stuff is to be ashamed of. know what's the good stuff and the bad stuff. Like we think that bad stuff is to be ashamed of, but you know what? The beginning of any good life or any good spiritual journey comes when you are just at rock bottom, right? It just comes when you have to just kind of say uncle to life and ask for

help. And that's what addiction did for me. It was like a forced uncle, you know, it kind of held me down and said, you've got to try this a different way. And so I'm so grateful for my, for all the mess in the past, because, you know, I don't know, I just feel like it helps me relate to people. And it makes me so grateful. I mean, I never thought that I would be a mother for a wife, or I didn't even think I'd be vertical, honestly, to tell you the truth. I mean, every day I'm grateful now. And I don't think that people who, I'm not sure that people who haven't been through something rough feel that way every day. So what was your dream growing up then? I know I wanted to be a teacher um which I sort of am now um and I know I always wanted to be a mom but I definitely lost that dream um when I got

lost to addiction because I just felt like I wouldn't be able to be responsible for another life um and you know what I found this My mom actually sent me this poem that I wrote in third grade that was all about how to be a peacemaker, which I think is interesting. So I don't know. Now I'm a peacemaker and a teacher and a mom. There was a messy part in the middle. A lot of mess. Now, did you ever feel like you weren't going to make it out through the other side? Oh, totally. Yeah, absolutely. I remember crying on the floor and being sure that I would never make it out. I mean, actually is a very effective hiding place, right? When you're, you know, lost in a world of food or alcohol or drugs, it really is creating your own safe world.

I mean, you don't have to deal with other people. You are completely invulnerable because nobody can touch you. Nobody relies on you. You don't have to show up to anything. You just create this own little drama in your own little world inside addiction. So it's a way of completely hiding from the world, which is why so many sensitive people end up there, you know, because God, I mean, it is hard to be a sensitive, vulnerable soul out in the world. It's really tough. Because you get to feel every range of emotion.

And sometimes that's scary, right? Yeah. I mean, like my therapist, we always laugh about anxiety because she's always trying to deal with my anxiety. And I'm like, you know what? Are you sure I'm not just paying attention? I feel like a lot of people should be anxious. What's going on in the world? So, yeah, I think that, you know, sensitive people do have kind of a hyper awareness of what's going on around the world? So, yeah, I think that sensitive people do have kind of a hyper-awareness of what's going on around them,

which channeled right can make for an amazing life and career. I mean, right now at Momastery, I have women meet there. All different kinds of people meet there every day to talk about life and be real and have a safe place to go deep and so channeled right sensitivity can be a really necessary life-giving thing now why uh how were you able to go cold turkey on all your addictions at 25 i have i have no clue. I mean, one night I was, you know, all the drugs, all the drinking, you know, I was an alcoholic for 10 years, all the food, smoking pack a day. And then that day was just cold turkey. That's incredible willpower. I know.

I mean, I went, I don't know what it was. I mean, it definitely wasn't willpower because I have none. So it was some kind of crazy miracle. I mean, I just, I found myself on my bathroom floor holding a pregnancy test, completely hungover, totally lost. I'd burned every bridge in my life. And I just, I called my sister who is my best friend. And I said, I don't know what to do. Like, I just help me. And she came and literally picked me up off the floor and took me to my first AA meeting. And I remember sitting there with those people and being like terrified and also really grateful because I could just tell that they were my people. And, um, and you know, my, my sister, we were reading the brochure with all the little warning signs that you might be an alcoholic. And of course everyone was like a triple dog. Yes. Right. And so my sister turned to me and said,

um, you know what? I don't know if a is going to be enough for you. We might need triple A. And that was like the hope that this, we both both it was just this moment of humor that we really needed and um we went we made it through the meeting she brought me home to my little townhouse apartment that i shared with two friends and she just sat we sat on my bed and she stood up and just cleaned up my room top to bottom. She threw away every booze bottle and just kind of picked up every piece of clothing and lovingly put away everything in my life. And I always just think of it as the beginning.

It was just the beginning for me. She just helped me clean it all up. And, you know, since then, my whole, all I do is say, just do the next right thing. Cause at that point I couldn't even one day at a time was terrifying to me. I couldn't even hear that. That was too long. I just focused. I had signs all over the place. It just said, just do the next right thing. Um, and so that's what I did when I was you know just on the ground with nothing and that's what I do now that I have this big career I still have signs all over the place that just say just do the next right thing and the magical thing is that if you just keep doing the next right thing no matter how

scary it is all those next right things just add up to this really amazing life. That's incredible. Now, at 25, you said you'd burn pretty much every bridge with your family and friends. So what would you have done if you didn't come to that realization and be able to go cold turkey? Do you think you'd still be addicted to everything if you know your sister wasn't there for you or if someone wasn't there for you at some point and why didn't anyone get through to you before then when you know they kind of knew you had an addiction problem how come it didn't work until that moment i don't know and

i'm so sad for people who write to me, you know, people write to me all the time and say, I've got a sister, I've got a brother, I've got a mother who's addicted and I can't get through to them. And if I had an answer for that, I would give anything. I mean, I really would. Addicts are my people and their families are my people. And I so wish that I had a good answer for that. I don't. I don't know what happened. I know that my parents tried to get through to me for not just years, decades before that.

I have an incredibly loving family and they tried everything and nothing worked. I don't know. But when you ask that question, I do think, yeah, I still would have gotten sober if my sister wouldn't have come, if my family wouldn't have been there, I still would have gotten sober. I remember the resolve that I had that day. I think it was just the resolve that comes when you have tried everything else. And you just want something so bad. I mean, for some reason, I just really wanted that baby, and I could not believe that the universe was so good that it would offer something so perfect and beautiful to me, even in my state.

It was like an amazing vote of confidence from the universe to me. To believe in it. Yeah. I felt like if the universe is going to believe in me in this way, then I'm going to freaking show up. Wow. Now, if you wouldn't have gotten pregnant, would you be sober? Thank God. I don't know.

I imagine I would have made my way there eventually. I don't have any, I have no shame about any of my decisions and no guilt. I know that what I'm doing right now is served by everything I went through before. So I don't know why the path was that way. I just know that none of it's being wasted. I'm using all of it, all of it, all the pain that I felt, um, during that time and the hopelessness I felt during that time and the guilt that I had during that time. So I did have major guilt when I was living through it. I use it every day with the people I talk to and the people I write to.

I mean, I can tap back into that in a hot second and, um, and, oh God, and I can, um, go there with people. And so, you know, I I can go there with people. And so, you know, I don't know what would have happened if things were different. I mean, I know that, you know, the man I'm married to right now is the man that, it's his baby, the one I was pregnant with on the bathroom floor. So we did end up getting married a few months later. We're still married.

What an incredible human being. Oh, he is. He is. Yeah, he is. I mean, I can only imagine. He is amazing. Can you imagine? Wanting to be there for you and love you and support you. And I'm assuming you guys were together for a little bit before that moment.

And he probably knew the struggles and the challenges that you were facing every day. And he probably wanted to support you to overcoming it and you weren't able to overcome it. And he was, and he was still with you. Yeah. It's incredible. It is incredible. Yeah. And he's a truly, really great dad and it was a total crapshoot for us to get married. I mean a total crapshoot and it worked out. I mean, we still work. Jesus, we're far from perfect.

We have our struggles. Absolutely. I think marriage is incredibly difficult. But yeah, it's a pretty incredible story of just showing up all messy and imperfect and what can come out of it. Let me ask you this. Now, again, he sounds incredible and amazing. And just kind of hearing you guys chat before we got in this interview, I was just like, wow, that's the type of relationship I want to have. But when does someone who's in a relationship, could be intimate one or friendship or any type of relationship, business,

when does someone who's in a relationship with someone who's so destructive or addictive that's causing harm to the situation that they're in or that's not supporting the situation, when does that person or does he or she never kind of let go of that relationship if it's not serving them? Or do they just stick it out and try to grind it out and do what it takes to make that person change? Oh, no. I mean, first of all, there's no – I would hate to insult everyone in the world by suggesting that there's an easy or tidy answer to that question. I know there's not. But I do,

I mean, I think the closest that anyone's come to answering that question where it made sense to me was someone that said that you, you do not have to cut off any relationship in your life, but you might have to separate yourself physically from a relationship, right? So you can still love someone a whole lot and hold them really close to you spiritually and not have them in your physical life. Because we do have to, I mean, look, obviously codependency and love are two very, very different things. We cannot love addiction out of anybody. I mean, if that could have been done, my parents would have done it. And that is not what happens.

I mean, my parents tried interventions and everything. And, you know, at the time when I got sober, none of those resulted in anything. Right. Um, so no, I, I, it's so, I mean, the worst I've seen is when a parent is losing a child to addiction because those lines are so blurred, um, about how much you give up of yourself. But I've never, ever, um, advised anyone to try to stick with an addict until they change. It's just, you know, you can't, there, there does have to be an element of saving yourself,

um, and just holding a person close to you spiritually. And sometimes the only way you can continue loving someone is to cut them out of your physical life. the only way you can continue loving someone is to cut them out of your physical life. So how do you deal with the guilt or the shame or the emotional trauma that may come from that, that that person from addiction may try to put on you? How do you, when you love someone so dearly or if they're a family member, and then that person kind of, let's say, abandons them, how do you deal with that feeling?

If that person that you abandoned or let go of in your life in a physical way starts attacking you, starts saying how you abandoned them or how you don't love them, et cetera, et cetera, how do you handle those emotions? Yeah. Well, I mean, as a writer, first of all, the words are incredibly important to me. So I would always switch abandon and never allow myself to use that word. Sure. Well, I'm not saying it's actually what would happen, but if that's what the person perceived is happening. Right. So I would switch that in

my head. Like if the person were saying to me, abandon, I would immediately switching into my head, my head too. I'm loving you so much that I cannot support your self-destruction. Ooh, that's good. I like that. My first answer to that would be that what you have to do is not reinvent the wheel. What you have to do is get yourself to an Al-Anon meeting because that is what those people do. Those people at Al-Anon meetings are experts. What's it called? It's called Al-Anon.

It's like an AA, but it's for people who love addicts. Wow. I've never heard of this. For anyone. It's brilliant. It's saved more lives than AA probably. I mean, it's an amazing group of people all over the world who get together and who, you know, share their wisdom on exactly what you just asked. Because for every addict, there's, you know, 10 people who are collateral damage.

Yeah. So those 10 people get to Al-Anon meetings and they learn there how to navigate exactly what you're talking about. Wow. This is fascinating. I didn't even know that was out there. Yeah. It's so important. It's a really, really important tool because all those feelings are impossible to navigate

by yourself. Wow. So you change the language behind it first and then you say second go go get some support from one of these Al-Anon meetings. Is that what it's called? Yes. Al-Anon. Absolutely. And they're in every city all over the place.

Yeah. Interesting. So what if someone doesn't go there and they try to do it themselves? Well, they'll probably, it probably won't work. I mean, if anything I've learned in life is that nothing really works by yourself.

I mean, it's not just recovery or, I mean, that's what I do is I create community for people so that when these, I've learned, you know, life is not personal, right? Like the stuff that happens to us in life, we think we're, it's the first time it's ever happened to us and we have to invent how to respond to it and we have to do it all by ourselves. The thing is that life happens to everybody. I live in Naples now, and so 90% of the people that live here are over 80 years old.

So all of my friends are like 80-year-old women, and I am obsessed with them. They're my new favorite group of people. I go to bingo. I actually went to bingo, not ironically, like real bingo. I mean, I love them because they are not, they're not hustling every minute anymore. They're comfortable in their own skin. They aren't trying to prove themselves to anybody anymore. They have this confidence and peace that I want. And, you know, I said to one of them recently, you know, when did you, when did you figure it

all out? Because she's this woman who just has it all figured out for sure. And she said, Oh, honey, you never figure it all out, but you do stop caring. Like, that's amazing. but what they have taught me is that there is no problem that I have in my life as a woman or as a human being that so many people haven't navigated before me so you know one of my favorite things to do

is to gather wisdom from people who've been there before and to you know gather it all up and bring it into my life and then after I work it out, pass it out. I mean, that's what you're doing. That's what we can do. We can all just learn from each other.

I don't think that you can fail if you just get humble enough to gather wisdom from other people. So what's the most valuable wisdom you've gathered from all the people you've connected with that you can share? Oh, God. Well, I think one of my favorite things that I'm really learning now is to be more of an and both person instead of an either or person. I think that, you know, it is so easy in this place, in this wonderful place in time that we live in now, but in this time that's a lot about categories and soundbites and issues and what side are you on?

And, you know, I don't know. I think it's a really hard place to live, always picking sides and always labeling yourself with, you know, less than 140 characters. I do. But I don't know. I mean, I live in this place where I'm, like, an adamant feminist, and I'm also this, like, homemaking, like, 1950s mom. And I'm a person of, like, very, very deep faith. And also I'm convinced half the time that there's no God, and I have no idea what hell I'm a person of like very, very deep faith. And also I'm convinced at the time that there's no God and I have no idea how I'm talking about.

And I, you know, I'm a lot of, I'm a person who fights for people's rights all over the world. And then I also like spend way too much money on myself and I'm totally frivolous. And, you know, I think that I finally feel comfortable there in that place of I'm just a big mixture of all of these things. And I contradict myself all the time. And I'm often completely hypocritical. And you know what? Like, that's the human being's fault. And I think, like, we, I just hear so many people constantly on the Internet defending themselves just for being human.

many people constantly on the internet defending themselves just for being human you know i think if we stop defending ourselves just for being for people accusing us of being human beings we could like stop worrying about 95 that's true that is true you know you're a hypocrite no i'm not no of course we are we all are like right of course you're doing or are you're you're you know all of us you're're inconsistent, really? Like, sometimes by 2 o'clock, I believe something completely different than I believed at 1.30, you know? Right. So, yeah, I think we can just let go of all of that and just embrace being human with all of our contradictions and hypocrisies. And it's what makes us interesting, you know?

Yeah. and hypocrisies and it's what makes it interesting you know yeah so that and then um you know i guess this idea of balance you know people are always asking me like how do you balance it all and i was in yoga class the other day and um i'm always i have i run a horrible balance i fall down a lot because of this line thing and um And I have Lyme disease, so it causes vertigo. And my yoga teacher is hilarious because she's always making fun of me for falling. And she's trying to teach me that balance is opposing forces pushing equally on each other to keep an object standing up, right? So it's so funny because when people talk about balance, I know they're talking about they don't want so much tension in their lives. Like you feel tension from work, you feel

tension from family, you feel tension from friends. And so for me to shift my thinking from how do I get rid of all this tension to feeling grateful that I have these strong forces holding me up, like work and faith and family and friends, and just kind of feeling solid in the middle of those. It's really a helpful visual to me because tension is actually what creates balance. You don't have to avoid it. And I've actually lived a tension-free life because addiction is a completely tension-free life. Nothing's pressing on you.

There are no forces pressing on you because you've removed yourself from anyone who might need you. And so, you know, living a life of tension is sort of a great honor to me. So I don't know. I mean, I just, I find it, the greatest reason that I'm trying to internalize right now is just this idea that I can just keep showing up as myself. And I know that sounds simple, but it continuously blows my mind because everything I do, whether it's this podcast or an essay I'm going to write or speech I'm going to give or a TV spot, I'm terrified. or an essay I'm going to write or speech I'm going to give or a TV spot, I'm terrified. Terrified that I'm going to say the wrong thing or not be good enough or that I'm going to be exposed for the fraud that I am who actually knows nothing.

And so instead of waiting until I have it all figured out, because I have no choice right now, I'm just showing up as I am. And it's just amazing to me the miracles that are happening i mean when you just show up before you're ready like i just i i'm starting to learn the more of these amazing people like you and all these other people i get to meet now i just at some point in my life i just believed that all of these people who were doing these awesome things she kind of all figured out you know they just i don't know who were doing these awesome things, she kind of all figured out, you know, they just, I don't know. They were just these people who were like, you know, super humans,

but just didn't have any of the fear and insecurity and crap that the rest of us had in our lives. And so to meet people who are doing awesome things and realize that they're exactly the same as everybody else. They're just not waiting to be perfect until they show up to their lives. It's just mind-blowing to me. So that's what I'm just trying to convince other people of. My friends on my blog,

the people who are changing the world are just the people who are showing up before they're ready. I think it's true. I talk about this in business with entrepreneurs all the time that people are paralyzed because they're so afraid of putting something out there if it's not perfect, if it doesn't look right and it's not ready. And that's why when I talk about building a business online or entrepreneurship, I always say sell something before you have the product even completed. Start selling and see if you can actually,

anyone will buy what you want to sell and then create the product for those people. As opposed to spending six months developing something, making every little detail perfect and the logo and all the graphics perfect to the point where it's going to take you longer than you expected. You're going to keep pushing it off

because you're always going to want it to be perfect and you're never going to get to ship anything. So I would say just start selling now before, when it scares you the most, start doing it. And that's exactly what we're saying with life. You're doing it with business and you're starting to do it in your personal life. I started with my personal life and it kind of turned into this business. But basically you're saying you just get on with it. You sell it before it's perfect.

Now, that's being really vulnerable, right? Yeah. Because, oh, my God, somebody might notice that there's something wrong with my product. I can't have that. Well, yeah, you can. And for me, I'm saying, don't perfect your product. Don't perfect yourself before you show up. Right.

Because if you wait until you're perfect, you before you show up right because if you wait till you're perfect you will never show up because none of us were made to be perfect but it's just so interesting that that is the total parallel with what you're you're saying about your product that's what we're saying about life they're the exact same things just show up all messy and imperfect and if anybody notices that's okay Because you know what happens when other people notice? When other people notice that you've shown up and you might be imperfect, it gives them permission to show up too.

They look at you and they think, oh my gosh, like if she can do it, if she's just up there and I know that she's not gotten all figured out, then it gives, it's just this ripple effect. It gives people permission to show up. You know, one of the things I found that's amazing in my blog is that we have a whole nonprofit that's come out of the,

that's just come out of our community at Mom's Story, which gave away hundreds of thousands of dollars last year. I didn't start any of it. It's just been completely organic from the blog. And what I've learned is that, this is what I think happened in the sentence. I think that we are a group of people who stopped trying to be perfect. And when you stop trying to be perfect, you finally realize that you actually do have enough energy and time to do good.

And I think in that way, perfection and good are complete enemies. Because you could spend your whole life in this little world trying to improve, improve, improve, improve, improve yourself, but never get started with what you're really just about to do here, which is follow your dreams and serve other people. That's it.

And you know what? It's too easy. It's too easy to spend your life in this little hole of self-improvement because it's just another hiding place. You don't ever have to get started. You don't ever have to put yourself out there because you're always waiting for your purpose.

Yeah. So what's your vision now? I'm going to do the next right thing. I love it. That's it. Every single day. When I'm 90, they will ask me, what's your plan? And I will say, I'm just going to do the next right thing. And I mean, for me, honestly, sometimes the next right thing is that I have to be really brave and get on stage. And just as often, the next right thing is that I'm going to go for a walk on the beach by my house, or that I'm going to drink a huge glass of water, or that I'm going to take a walk with my kids or that I'm going to write

an essay that I think needs to be written. But that's the way I avoid freaking out about any of it is that all I'm going to do is the next right thing forever. Wow. So you're not worried about five years or 10 years or this or that? Oh, good God. No. I mean, are you kidding with my life?

Like 10 years ago, I was on the floor. I would have never predicted any of this. So no, I mean, I do have people in my life who have wonderful business sense. And I have found that if I just keep showing up for my people online and I keep pouring my heart out and living as honestly and as openly as I can, that the magic just keeps happening. Yeah. So here's a question for you that I feel like we relate on a certain level from our childhood and where we both were, let's say, left out or felt left out.

Whether we were or not, that was our perception. So how do we create a world where no one is left out? Oh God, I love that. I just wrote this essay about my kid's teacher who I went in for this. Okay. I actually went in to get tutored for math. I can't do my own kids this grade,

not homework. So I went in for tutoring myself. Don't worry. I'll be doing that too. Okay. Oh my gosh. It's awful. She said, yeah, sure. I'll tutor Chase. And I said, no, not tutor me. So she told me, we were talking about that in classrooms and I'm really, really concerned about that, about kids including each other, probably just because of my past. But she told me that every single Friday afternoon, she asks the kids to write down the names of five kids they want to sit with the next week.

And then she doesn't use it to make student charts. She just uses it to study patterns and look for kids who are lonely, who are not being requested, or who are not making connections enough to request other kids. And it's amazing. She's done it every single Friday since Columbine because she watched that stuff and she thought, that tragedy, and she thought, you know what, when kids aren't seen, they find a way to get seen.

And, you know, whether or not that's the stem stem of school violence or not i know that's what my problem was i felt uncomfortable and unseen um and that took me down the road of addiction but i just thought it was such a brilliant small way to kind of go out of your way to see people who are not being seen and i really think that if we could just, I don't think anybody has to change the big world, but I think if we could all just focus on the little world within our reach and look for people in our lives who are not being seen on a regular basis,

you know, I think immediately of single moms, teachers, awkward kids, whoever it is in your circle that are not being seen and just find a way to see them and tell them that you see them and love on them in some way or another. I don't know. I just think it's going to take every single person

in their little sphere of influence living that way. I think that's definitely an inspiring story that just one teacher can do. And if we all did that, you know, what could we create? So I think that's some great, great insights. I appreciate that. Well, and we tell Chase, I mean, we tell my kids know that one of my, one of the most shared essays I've ever written in my book is a letter. It's just a letter that I read to my kids every night before the first day of school.

And it's just about this kid named Adam who was in my second grade class. And he just was really, really different. And nobody talked to him. And people made fun of him. And I never made fun of him, but I also never stood up for him and I never asked him to be my friend. And I never did any of those things that I would have wished that I did. Um, and so I wrote to my kids about Adam and I talked to them about how, when we send them to go to school, that we don't send them to be the best at anything.

We don't care. We don't care. We do not care about straight A's. We don't care about perfect test scores. We don't care if they're the best at anything, but we do send them to school to practice being kind and brave. Because those are the two things that we care most that they are, kind and brave. And I just explained to Chase that in that letter and regularly, that feeling that you get in your heart when you see someone hurting. But that feeling, the name of that feeling is compassion. And what compassion is, is a signal to you to do something. But it's not a waste. It's not a random feeling. It is a signal to you to do something. And whether that something is that you go ask that kid to be your friend, do something. And whether that something is that you go ask that kid to be your friend,

or you go talk to a teacher about how they're being treated, or that you come home to us and talk to us about what's going on in class. It doesn't matter what you choose, but it is your duty to do something when that happens. And I don't know, I just hope, I hope that my kids see school a little bit differently than I did, which is not, it's not a, you know, word of the fly situation and it's not a place where you have to be the best, but it's just a place where you can practice being every person in your

world as a gift and something to be treated with the respect and love. I think that's incredible. I mean, with the pressures that most children feel from parents of having to get good grades all the time, not all parents, but it seems like most, that's what they want, get good grades and do well in school. I think it's amazing that you're coming from a different point of view of being kind and brave and have courage. And you kind of, I guess, reward your children off of that, which I think is amazing and so inspiring to hear because I never even thought about that.

And maybe when I have kids, maybe I would, but I've never thought about that because I don't have them right now. But I think that's amazing. And if I would have had that, as opposed to get good grades and my siblings ahead of me were, you know, brilliant in school and I couldn't read or write or do really any subjects. I just had a horrible time comprehending anything and remembering anything. taking all these tests and getting a second grade reading level, uh, you know, back and never being able to speak publicly or read aloud publicly, just being so shameful and embarrassed that I couldn't read in public when all my peers were just, you know, breezing through books and reading aloud perfectly where I didn't know the simplest words.

It was, uh, always shameful. But, uh, for me, what I learned to do was to connect with people on an emotional level. And your story, your TED Talk really inspired me. And I've been kind of on a journey this last year to really uncover everything about myself to everyone. I think it's amazing what you're creating for your family. And that's very inspiring. And I hope a lot of people are listening to this and, you know, really think about that with their kids. Well, can I ask you a question?

Do you think that that, I mean, I'm amazed that you just said that because this is a conversation that's going on in my house right now. My little one came home. that's going on in my house right now. My little one came home. My middle child came home last week sad, tears, because the school had sent out the gifted letters to the kids who were gifted, and she didn't get one. And

so this is an ongoing conversation with us. I find it so amazing to me that still, as evolved as we are, that we only value one type of giftedness in school. I mean, do you think that your giftedness of making connections with other people, your emotional giftedness, can only be a result of not having that first school giftedness that the other

kids had? Or do you think that's what you were born with? I mean, I think about this. It just wasn't valued. Yeah, I think about this a lot, actually. I think about some of the biggest leaders in the world, how they struggled so much in a lot of things early on. And it's part of the reason why they have been so connected and compassionate and loving and courageous is because of their pain.

And I don't know. I think if I was talented in school, I probably would have been, you know, cockier and had a bigger ego than I already, than I already had. And, you know, I think, I mean, I really, you know, here's the thing in, in, in private school, I don't know if they do this in public school, but when I went into private boarding school in eighth grade and through high school, they give you on the on the grade report card, they ranked us. And so I was always in the bottom four. You know, I knew how many students were in the school.

And I swear to you, Glenn, that there was not a homework assignment or a test that I did not cheat on all through high school. Of course. It's the only way I passed school. It was your survival skill. It was the only, I had the most amazing vision and I could see all around the room at all the,

even the Scantron tests were my savior because I could see everything and hide it. I could look just at the corner of my eye and always get it and I was always able to connect with people about their homework and I literally should not have passed school if there was someone watching me all the time i would have flunked uh middle school and high

school um but for me yeah i don't think it would have been able to connect as well with people if i didn't have that kind of challenge i guess guess, or difficulty. And it's one of the reasons I became so passionate about sports because I was just like, I want to become good at something. And sports became that outlet at school. Wow. I just hope that there, I really hope, and I want to be a part of it over the next few decades, that we can find a way to identify different types of giftedness in school.

Because like I told my little girl who was so sad about not getting a letter, it is so appalling to me to suggest that some folks are gifted and others are not. We are all just gifted in different ways. This little one who didn't get her letter is, she is probably emotionally my smartest kid. You know, she can, she can touch, she can feel other people's feelings and she can empathize more deeply than either of my smartest kid. Yeah. You know, she can, she can touch, she can feel other people's feelings and she can empathize more deeply than either of my other two. And she is actually what the world needs.

Right. Yeah. She's probably extremely intuitive and passionate. And so, and that's a gift. That's a gift. Just like bookmarks are a gift. And,

and honestly, I feel like the world needs people like that more, more maybe you know the book smart people right now we need those people so i don't know i just hope that at some point there will be a time when every kid gets a letter because there's all different kinds of giftedness identified in school well i think it's i think it's starting to shift with uh in the sports world for kids because i feel like everyone gets a ribbon you know for no i don't yeah my husband's always like oh my god my husband played professional soccer so when he coaches and they all get trophy if he's pissed off about that i don't i just don't think it's the same thing i don't mean that everybody's awesome at everything i just mean that everybody has something inside of them that can be used as a gift to the world.

I don't mean that everybody should win all the time. I think it's two different things, don't you? I agree. I agree. But should we acknowledge for what they bring to the world? Yes. Whether it's your smarts or whether you've got something that you bring and be acknowledged for it as opposed to only a

few people are acknowledged for one thing. I love it and I could talk about this forever, but let me, uh, let me ask you two final questions. Um, what's your next right thing? Oh God. Um, okay. I personally, when I'm done with this interview, I'm going to take a walk and be so grateful. I'm just going to be grateful because this was an amazing conversation.

And I feel like talking to someone who's so successful and so outwardly amazing, every time I talk to someone on this human level, it makes me less afraid of the next thing. Because, you know, Craig reminded me right before this interview, he's just a person for all these people. And he reminds me of that every single time I do anything. And really, that's all you have to do with life, right? It's just take life one person at a time. So, I mean, I'm just going to be grateful that this interview made me a new friend and also made me a great person. And what's your definition of greatness?

I think my greatness is when I can sit in the stillness and be at peace with myself and my life. That is what I was unable to do for decades. And that's why I hid in addiction and perfectionism and all of the other isms. Right now, I am at a place where I can sit in stillness, which I do every day, and feel no shame

and not even a whole lot of desire for anything to be different. I just can feel peace. And that's my idea of greatness. I love it. And where can we connect with you online? You can find me at Monastery. It's like Monastery, but Mom. Monastery.com.

Yeah, I live there. And I'm on Facebook at Monastery, but mom, monastery.com. Yeah, I live there and I'm on Facebook at Monastery and at Glennon Melton on Twitter. Glennon, I acknowledge you for opening your heart, for opening my heart for sharing your feminine grace and your wisdom for the change you made in yourself and with your family and for the huge gift you are to this world and I appreciate you so much for coming on and I thank you

for everything you do aww Lewis thank you so much it's been a really special afternoon for me and I just can't wait to watch all the next great things that you do i appreciate it uh thanks so much for coming on i appreciate it absolutely bye And there you guys have it. I hope you enjoyed this open conversation with Glennon. She's got a huge heart, and I'm so grateful that she was willing to share with me and all of you her thoughts on all these topics. And make sure to check out her blog,

momastery.com, M-O-M-A-S-T-E-R-Y.com. And I'll have all of her info over at the show notes at lewishouse.com. But yeah, dive into her stuff. It's really incredible. And connect with her on Facebook and Twitter and everywhere else that you can because she's got great information

and the community is so engaged. It's really that you can because she's got great information and the community is so engaged. It's really incredible to see what she has created and how many people she's supported. So go ahead and check that out over at the show notes at lewishouse.com. If you enjoyed this episode, I would love it if you share it with your friends over on Twitter or Facebook or Google Plus or post a picture of where you're listening to it on Instagram. I'm getting updates every day from you guys who are posting pictures on Instagram of where you're listening to the show. And it's so much fun to witness that and see people from all over the world and crazy environments listening to the School of Greatness. So continue that. And I appreciate it so much. You guys mean the world to me. And recently, a lot of listeners have come up to me in person on the streets and just said how much they appreciate the show.

So that means a lot to me. If you ever see me out there in the world, please say hi. Let me know what your favorite episode is. And I love hearing from you guys. So I'm always available on Twitter, at Lewis Howes, on Facebook, slash Lewis Howes, on Facebook slash Lewis Howes or Instagram Lewis Howes. And I'd love to see what you guys are up to and see what greatness you're creating in your own lives. So thanks again, everyone, for tuning in today with Glennon Melton.

And you guys know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great. This is here. ស្រូវតែរសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសារសា� See you Outro Music