The School of Greatness - 61 What Sharing My Childhood Rape Taught Me About Being a Loving, Vulnerable, Free Man with Jonathan Fields

Episode Date: April 15, 2014

I was 5 years old when he raped me. The only other memories I had before that vivid experience was my first day at Kindergarden where I colored in an outline of Clifford The Big Red Dog, and taking brownies to pre school for classmates on my birthday. Facing it was one of the most uncomfortable and emotionally challenging moments I've ever had... but it changed my life forever. In this episode I dive into what happened, the weight I carried for so long and the lessons I learned along the way. I want to thank my dear friend Jonathan Fields for guiding me during this interview and creating a space for me to share so openly.

Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. What is up guys? Lewis Howes here. And today I am with my good friend,

Jonathan Fields. And I asked him to come on to facilitate this podcast, this episode, because I wanted to completely open up to you guys about an experience that I had. And I wanted to have him on here to really facilitate and support me in navigating this conversation. And I think it's really important for me to have someone like Jonathan that I trust and that I feel comfortable with so that I can talk to about this subject that we're about to uncover. So thanks for coming on. Yeah, so thank you for inviting me on. So thanks for coming on. Yeah. So, I mean, thank you for, for inviting me

on. Thank you for, thank you for your trust. Thank you for this opportunity to sort of like have this conversation so we can share something. It's, yeah, I mean, it's kind of interesting. We've been friends for a number of years now. And, and, you know, you, I think appear to everybody on, on the outside to be this golden boy. Like, you can't do wrong. Everything you touch seems to light up. And amazing projects, tremendous in business, tremendous in life, star athlete, all these things. And you've been interviewed, I'm guessing, hundreds of times now.

Everyone from all over social media to mainstream media tv print radio and um written you i don't know done what 700 some odd webinars it's like people feel like they know you right and um and what's interesting is you know um you you've always told this you know you've your hero's journey, which is like the story that you tell publicly about how you were a pro athlete and you got injured. And that was like the inciting, that was like the big dark thing that you had to overcome that set you on this new journey. And I always knew that, like that was a story that I always knew. And we've been friends for a while now. that I always knew.

And, you know, we've been friends for a while now. And then, um, it was probably a couple months ago where like you came to, to me and drop the different bombs, you know, and,

and, and, and shared that there's actually a much bigger thing that, um, that you've been trying to work your way through, um, that happened a lot earlier in life. And it's just recently that,

you know, it's really started to bubble up to the surface and you've been able to start to process it so i guess um i i guess we should just kind of dive into it rather than keeping people on the surface here but um something happened to you when you were a kid that um changed everything yeah it was uh it was one of my first memories that I can really remember as an experience. And I was sexually abused or raped by another man. And I was five years old.

I'll kind of walk through a brief story of it. I was five years old. And my parents were working full-time jobs. There was four of us kids. So after school, we would all go to a babysitter. And I went to a specific babysitter. I don't know if my sisters were at the same one. I think maybe one of them was because she was younger. The other one was probably going home because she was old enough. And so after kindergarten, I remember my babysitter was like across the street or a block away from the school

so we would walk across the street and go hang out at the babysitters for a couple hours until my mom it was until it was five o'clock yeah i mean it's like latchkey kid a lot of a lot of people grew up that way like every day you know you're growing up in ohio it's a normal thing yeah yeah and uh i was probably there for a while. Like, I don't even remember. Maybe six months or a year, the whole year. And I remember one specific day. You know, we'd go there.

We'd play in the backyard. We'd play games, whatever it would be. And there would be like, I remember there always being peanut butter sandwiches, peanut butter and jelly, but I didn't like jelly. So I'd always have peanut butter sandwiches because I was picky. And we'd just kind of hang out for a couple hours. And one day, one of my experiences I remember is that the babysitter was a woman,

like probably in their 40s, an older woman. And I remember she had a son. And I never, I don't remember ever seeing the son until this one day. And he was probably in his late teens from what I remember. I only saw him once. And he had his door open to his room, and he had Nintendo on. And at that time, Nintendo was huge back in the late 80s.

And I was like, I want to play Nintendo. So I asked him, I said, hey, can I play Nintendo? And you're like five years old. Five years old. Yeah, I said, hey, can i play nintendo and you're like five years old five years old right yeah i said hey can i play nintendo with you and and he said yes but you have to do something for me or something along those lines he said yes but we need to do something first or you have to do something for me and i'll let you play i said okay you know i'll do anything whatever so he just takes me into the bathroom and and it was like so nonchalant when i remember back at it it wasn't like weird for him it was like so nonchalant what happened

like when he sexually abused me and you know he had me get on the floor i remember him having to get on the bathroom floor and performing the sexual act on me. And I remember just not knowing that it was right or wrong, just kind of like, I'm doing this because I wanted to play Nintendo. And I thought that it was just normal. And he finished whatever he was doing, and then I went and played Nintendo. And I remember during it you know it's a very vivid memory for me actually it's one of my first memories and

i remember during it because a lot of people don't remember anything yeah yeah i remember this vividly like i remember the smell the, taste, the room. I remember everything, like the sounds. I remember this whole experience. But I can't remember the guy's face. Like I can't remember what he looked like. And if I saw him today, I probably wouldn't remember. So maybe I've run into him and I didn't know.

Because I only saw him that one time, and it was for like an hour or something during this whole day. And I don't know what he's up to now, I don't know what's happened or what he's doing or anything. But I just remember, it wasn't until later, probably when I was an early teen, that I realized what had happened. So, I mean, at the end of that, on the day that it happened, did you go home? Did you tell anyone? I didn't tell,

I didn't say anything to anyone. Right. First off, because I kind of didn't know what was going on. Right. And, yeah, I just like went about my day,

my normal life, and, you know, went home. But I remember, you know, it being a moment, an experience that stacked up with other experiences that

made me extremely defensive and guarded throughout my childhood, throughout my life. And obviously, I mean, we're sitting, how old are you now? I'll be 31 in a few days. Right, so you're 31. And this is one of the most vivid memories of your childhood. So it stuck with you for a reason. It stuck. And here's what's interesting.

It stuck. And I didn't tell anyone about it my entire life. I told my sociology professor my freshman year of college. It was like a big class, like 300 students, like just a basic sociology class. I told him at the end of like one of his lectures as he was talking about rape and sexual abuse and it kind of like came back in my memory i was like man was this a bad dream or did this

actually happen but i remember every year i would remember it like i could vividly remember it it wasn't a dream i remember it so vividly and i think i tried to make it act like it didn't happen like i tried to just put it out of my head and just like go about my life like it didn't happen. And I think being a straight man, I tried to like block it even more because it was a man and it wasn't like a woman. Yeah, and you're also, I mean, you're growing up in the Midwest.

Yeah, Ohio. Right, you know. Small town. Right, and you're an emerging athletic star in the town there's a lot of attention and focus on you and your family because your family a lot of prodigies in the family so so and you're like you're a man yeah you know according to the midwestern straight definition of like and this is so do you remember at what point as you kind of like start to revisit this like you start to realize this wasn't normal

yeah i remember in in like high school starting to be like this isn't normal and i think probably when i had like one of my first couple girlfriends in high school like we were started opening up and talking about you know everything and i didn't tell him this thing you know it's like we're telling each other our deepest darkest secrets and really getting intimate and vulnerable it's like high school kids you know as much as a high school could kid can and I just remember being like oh you know is there anything about you I don't know you know asking questions like that yeah sharing our intimate and vulnerable moments and I couldn't tell them this one thing it was

like I could tell him everything else like my brother going to prison you know my parents getting divorced and like the experiences i had as a kid with that and you know stealing i had a stealing problem when i was in middle school and i had to steal something every day about how i was opened up about how i couldn't read and was felt like stupid in class all the time. But I couldn't talk about this one thing. So I was like, why am I so ashamed of this thing that I went through? Is that and that was like in your mind, it was shame. I was like extremely ashamed.

I was like when I thought about it. And as I was growing up into like puberty and just like, yeah, this athletic guy, I was really ashamed. I was really angry. I was, that's, I was taken advantage of. And I remember just feeling like someone took advantage of me without my

control, without my consent. And that really pissed me off. And I look back at, you know, as a, if I'm looking at it from a uneducated psychologist point of view, I would see that, you know, that was one of the instances that made me really react in the ways I reacted in sports,

in certain relationships. When things would happen, they were trigger points for me when I felt manipulated or attacked or abused emotionally whatever it may be then I would kind of puff my chest and be the alpha male in the room and kind of a glass back to protect myself and so it's like you're responding not just to to the immediate threat but also to like this history since you were like everything that's ever happened to me, I'm like, I must protect myself. Right. That type of attitude, ego, and, you know, a threatening,

you know, angry way as opposed to communicating, you know, in a loving. Was there ever any, because I mean, like, I mean, God willing, I will never be on the wrong side of something like this. And I haven't in my life.

But when you hear other people share their stories, there's also sometimes people feel that there's not just a sense of shame, but also blame. Like there, was that a part of what you're self-talking anyway, or was it? You know, as I reflect on it, I don't think I blame myself for it happening. But I just feel like I felt really ashamed

to the point where I thought if anyone knew about this, they wouldn't care about me. Like they wouldn't respect me. They wouldn't love me. They would make fun of me. Because I already felt like I was being made fun of because I wasn't strong in school. So I was like, I don't want to give people a reason

to know something so vulnerable about me that they would just make fun of me more or hold it against me or whatever. I was just in such fear to let anyone know about this. My family didn't know. Again, the only person I knew was a sociology professor that ended up transferring schools after one semester.

So I only, you know, saw him a couple of times. And he was like, you know, I'm really sorry to hear this, but you know, this is pretty common actually.

And you're probably not the only young boy that he did this to based on history and based on, you know, this is pretty common actually. And you're probably not the only young boy that he did this to based on history and based on statistics. And I was just like, that's messed up. Yeah. You know, what was it? What was it that stopped you from, from telling anyone in your family?

I think again, I like, like shame. I didn't want them to like, I don't know. I mean, you also grew family. I think, again, like, shame. I didn't want them to, like, I don't know. I mean, you also grew up, I mean, can we share this? You grew up in a pretty faith-driven family. Yeah, yeah. Right, where there was, you know, you were believers.

Yeah. My dad was a strong, like, Christian believer, yeah. Yeah, I mean, does that play any role in it? Maybe. I mean, my dad was, like, the most amazing human being from ages 13 to 22. And he was an amazing human being, extremely loving father from when I was born to about 13. But I just lived in fear with him because of his authority, because of his like he had some anger and probably wasn't happy and fulfilled completely when I was a child. But then like when I was 12, 13, it like switched

and he was the happiest, most loving human being. So I remember just being in fear when I was a kid around my dad, although I never felt like he didn't love me. Like he would always be there at night and tuck me in and like have me say a prayer and like tell me how much he loved me. But his actions were very like fearful for me as a young child when he was just like this big authoritative, you know, intelligent man. And I was just like afraid not to mess up, you know,

but I'm assuming most kids had like experiences where they're like, you know, afraid of their data sometimes. I don't know. But I never, you know, I just was like, I didn't want to upset him or my parents or my siblings i wanted them to love me yeah i wanted to be loved by them and i wanted them to accept me and you know i just i don't think i was had this self awareness or the mindfulness at that age to be like this is what happened to me mom and dad and you know i was just trying to like get by you know

one day at school at a time but you know with like having friends yeah so so you finally um you finally tell that first person and and he you know when you're the sociology professor in college and and he comes back with this whole well you, you know, welcome to the club. Yeah. Almost like type of like, you know, this is really pretty common and it's probably happened to a lot more people. Yeah. Where do you go from there? You know, that's when I was 18.

And I remember. Freshman year in college. Freshman year in college. Yeah. I remember just being like mad. I just remember being like, this is a messed up, why is this happening?

Why do people do this? You know, wanting to come from a place of protecting myself and really making sure this doesn't happen to other people around me. You know, it made me come up with a lot of thoughts like, is it safe to have kids

if this potential is out there like so you're already like sort of projecting well it's just like who can i trust and you know or why did i create this in my life and why didn't you know why did it happen to me and why does it happen to other kids and what what are we creating in the world i don't know if i thought about this at the moment but what are we creating in the world that people don't feel that they're getting the love that they want so that they have to go off and do this? Whether it's with kids or other adults.

When you told the professor, in the moment that you were telling him, what's going, as you're walking up to the podium. I was afraid. Well, I went to his office because it was like after school it's not gonna be public with her yeah i was just like i feel like i have to tell someone because i haven't told anyone and what it was like and it was really it was like the subject of the class it was like it's like it's time yeah i was just like i want to tell someone right like it's just a secret i had that no one knew. And I just wanted to talk it out

because it's been festering in my body for 15 years or whatever. And I remember just trembling and shaking when I was talking to him. He made me feel very comfortable. He was really relaxed. I'm sure he's experienced a lot of this before or talked about it for years. But I still felt ashamed. He made me, again, he made me feel not ashamed he was

like this is not your fault this is something that he's probably did before you and probably continue to do um so it kind of gave me like a first step of me being like okay it's it's not i'm not a bad human being for this happening to me i've still felt ashamed i didn't tell anyone and open up for another 12 years about it but uh it was kind of like a first step for me i mean the moment after you told him was there any sense of relief or was it just like i think i think there was a sense of relief right away but still like i was living in fear yeah i was like living in fear living in resentment living in a place of not forgiving myself i'm out but now what the hell do i do yeah i was like it

was a first step yeah but i was still trapped right in this like emotional prison of fear and i think each year as i got older and became more mindfulness about myself and the world and what i've created and what i haven't created i was able to relax and like drop into my i don't know peacefulness about it because i was just like kind of remembering it and i felt okay with it myself but i just wasn't able to share with anyone else right but that's right that's the thing it's like that there was one person but that didn't it's like that didn't start this external series of things where it's like okay let me see a therapist let me tell my close friends let me tell my my mom and dad whatever

it is or my brother my sister yeah it was like one and done so there's this like emotion like okay but then it's like you're almost like you're going back into the cave after i hadn't fully dealt with it and it definitely showed up in relationships like i was still coming from a place of reacting in relationships with with friends with business partners with with intimate relationships with women that I was dating. And I remember when things were great, I was great. And when things, when at the moment someone started to, I started to feel attacked in any emotional or physical way, whether that was the case or not, whether they were attacking me or not,

when I started to feel attacked, I would drop in defensive mode and attack back. Like I needed to protect myself. Like my body was telling me I needed to protect myself. There was nothing like my mind had could reason. It was like I hadn't dealt with whatever I was making me defensive still. And so it showed up.

And I was living in a place of fear in relationships when it would get tough or vulnerable or my intelligence was at stake or someone has tried to attack who I was as a person or whatever it may be. Yeah, and also you lived in a really interesting world at this time. It's like you go through college, to attack who I was as a person or whatever it may be, you know? Yeah. I mean, and also, you know, like you lived in a really interesting world at this time.

It's like you go through college, you're a huge football star in college, you know, and then you come out and you're, and you know, you're playing pro ball and it's, and they're just, people make assumptions about who you are, who you should be, the type of man you are, the type of man you aren't. about who you are who you should be the type of man you are the type of man you aren't um and so there's like you're in the public you're very you're a very public person yeah and at the time also my dad got in this extreme car accident i don't know if i talked to this about you and it was he was in a coma for three months and we didn't know if he was going to live or die and it was like i had this amazing father who was always there for me. Every game around the country,

he flew to be at in high school and college. And it was like, I had this amazing, you know, hero that I was in fear of like, you know, growing up and unsure about, but then was really there for me with everything emotionally,

physically. Like he was so loving, so compassionate understanding through my like growing pains as a young adult you know like most teens go through and it's just like and then he was gone you know he's alive but he was like gone and we had to like teach him how to walk and talk and they had serious brain serious brain trauma. And so I was going through that, like losing my dad in a sense during that time as well and didn't know who to lean on really. But it's so interesting too because you talk,

like on the one hand you talk about your dad as someone you lived in fear of. Yeah. And then you also talk about him as like the most loving, compassionate, devoting. I mean, there's such intense duality around that. It was crazy. Yeah.

I think uh you know it's tough because i can't talk to him about this right now because he's very like aware of what's happening but he has some amnesia still and he's he's not fully remembering everything so it's hard to have a conversation about his inner feelings with him fully being able to express it he can express but not fully at the deepest level i think yet still um so i don't think i could actually have the conversation with him to ask him you know what were what's going on with you you know i think it was just a lot of like he wasn't you know he got married when he was 18 because my mom was pregnant with my older brother. They were in college. So he finished college while having two jobs

to pay for the first baby. Then they had three more kids in 10 years. And I think he was probably just doing stuff he didn't love and was probably like not happy, completely fulfilled, but stayed together because they wanted to take care of the kids. So I think that was like once the kids were off to college,

and my older siblings were off to college, and I was 13, I was the only one left in high school, and I was gone to a private school, he had all this freedom and flexibility, and he just started really, you know. Start to reclaim his life. Yeah, his identity, his life, his happiness. He was probably going through his own demons

for the first 12 years of my life. It's just like. So then flash forward. It's like at the time where you start to really need him on a different level, this horrible thing happens. And he's, he's obviously for the no fault of his, I mean,

but, um, but he's not there on like at the, at your moment of greatest need, he just can't give you what you need. Right. Right. And he was like my,

you know, again, he was there for me and my friend my dad my mentor yeah everything so so um so you keep this inside for a long time again yeah yeah and but the rage is like getting like it's like you know there's a little bit of a valve like that blows off a little bit of that when you talk to your sociology professor business like the valve shuts down it starts to build again yeah you know i think like each year as i grew older in my 20s i was very calm i became more mindful of who i was in the world and and everything and i would say that i was not like an angry person by any means or aggressive i was very loving but i would still react and like get defensive and threaten if someone was threatening me it's like i would threaten back with the same type of fear or whatever as opposed to just coming from a place of let's resolve this

lovingly right and communicate like human beings you know know what I mean? Which is so interesting for me because I mean like knowing you pretty well, I also know like there's, like you look at your physical presence and again, like you make certain assumptions about a guy like you. But you have like this insane, you know, like nurturing,

like loving, like caretaking, you know, like mothering side to you, like to the world, which i think a lot of people would really be caught by surprise but it's such a part of the fiber of who you are um yeah it's just again there's like these just crazy dualities playing out in your life all over the place yeah and i you know again i think it's the experiences i went through again i felt like my father my parents my siblings loved me but i didn't feel loved so i knew they loved me and my interpretation of it was that i wasn't being loved i didn't feel it yeah whether it was happening or not that was

my interpretation now maybe it was just because of the instances that happened the rape some other instances that occurred just my brother going to prison when i was eight just feeling like i didn't have any friends until i was 13 you know i just didn't feel like i was accepted or loved and so i think you know it really made me want to love everyone so that they i could feel that yeah it really made me wanted to love everyone so that I could feel that. It really made me want to be nurturing and compassionate towards everyone so that I could experience what that felt like as a kid. And so I think that's kind of like how it's developed for me. Yeah. And at the same time, it's like you had two states, rage and adoration.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I was a really confused kid. And I remember, you know, I don't think I've told this to anyone. I think my parents knew this. But when I was in elementary school, I would often tell the teacher or the principal, like when I would get in trouble or something was happening, I would often say, I remember. And I can't believe I actually said this a lot. But I remember I would say that I wish I were dead or I want to kill myself.

And I think I would just say it so nonchalantly that I don't know why I would say that. And I don't know if other kids ever said that, but I would just be like, I wish I were dead. I wish I was like. I mean, I think a lot of middle schoolers say that about other people. Right, right.

I wish they were dead. I wish you would die or whatever. Right, but I mean, but the fact that you were saying it actually, I mean, like think a lot of middle schoolers say that about other people. Right, right. I wish they were dead. I wish you would die or whatever. Right. But I mean, the fact that you were saying it actually, I mean, like, who am I? I'm not a psychologist. Sure. But to me, it actually makes perfect sense because it's like, oh, wait a minute. Here's somebody now who doesn't love me.

Like, what can I say? What can I throw out there? To get attention. To change the emotion so that all of a sudden they want to take care of me. Right, exactly. So that like, they're not're not you know they're not angry at me anymore but they're like

how can I get them to love me of course so I can you know and you know looking back I see what I was creating for myself but

yeah and I don't know if again if it all stemmed from this one experience or if it was a multiple of experiences I'm assuming it's who knows

or a compilation of like all these things but you had some big moments and including a big one that you recalled so vividly when you're five so so you get to a point pretty recently in your life um where you start processing this and it's like what happens that makes you hit a tipping point where it's like this has to i need to move through this it's interesting i never thought i would share this with anyone ever or open up maybe like if i was like you know my wife i would like talk about it but i didn't really like think about it that much and i was just like you know it's not that big a deal it happened when i was five there's nothing i can do about it and it's over like i can either be upset about it or i can you know create something amazing in the world and have an awesome life so i was like why talk about it why I can, you know, create something amazing in the world and have an awesome life. So I was like, why talk about it? Why even bring it up? It's not going to do me any good. I went

to this about six months ago. I went to this leadership workshop for five days in Los Angeles and we were talking a lot about emotional intelligence and really understanding ourselves and why we react to certain things in the world, why we create certain things in the world, why, um, you know, what holds us back from like getting what we want in relationships with our career, with our goals, like what are the things that are holding us back, keeping us from living the most Epic life that we can live. And I remember there was like a moment where people were just sharing about different things that they went through in their life and the the workshop facilitator was like you know here's an opportunity if anyone

wants to share like here's the open floor and i'm extremely grateful for the space that everyone else created before me in this like 30 to 60 minute moment of like sharing because some people really were so courageous and opened up and shared in front of a group of about 50 of us about some things that happened to them and i was just like oh my gosh this is you know unbelievable and i remember thinking is there anything that I could share that is holding me back I was like you know my ego is like you know I'm pretty good you know my ego is like you're doing great things you're crushing it you're you're getting what you want you're making the money you're achieving your you know financially athletic goals I was like I think I'm pretty good I don't know if I need

to share anything there's nothing like crazy that's happened to me like some of these stories were unbelievable and then I was just like trying to I was like okay I think I'm pretty good. I don't know if I need to share anything. There's nothing like crazy that's happened to me like some of these stories were unbelievable. And then I was just like trying to, I was like, okay, I really want to dive into this and make sure I get the most out of this workshop. So let's just think about it. So I was thinking about my brother going to prison. I was like, I've already talked about that so much. Like I'm not, it doesn't hurt me or affect me anymore.

I was like, my parents getting divorced. No, you know, I've gone through that. And so I was just trying to like go through through my head all the things that happened to me. It's like everything but that. Everything, everything but that. And then that kind of pops up. I was like, what about this thing when I was five that I've already dealt with? And my heart started pounding when I was thinking about it.

I just imagined myself in front of the room speaking about it. And my heart was pounding. And I was like uh i don't think i want to do this but i know i need to right and so the trainer was like his name is chris lee he goes you know last chance does anyone want to get up here and i was like in my seat i was like i do not want to do this this is extremely vulnerable and scary but i just like something in my body just stepped stood up and just started walking to the front of a room and i was like oh shit i'm about to do this and then i was up there just like how many people in the room about 50 people probably yeah did you know them before

these five days didn't know them no yeah but i'd known him for it was probably like the third day right so there's a pretty safe relationship yeah i was really building connection with a lot of people and like we were going through different exercises and experiences together. So I felt safe enough where if I don't see any of these people ever again, awesome. If I do, okay. But I remember being very nervous. And I stood up there, very calmly, walked through the entire experience, similar to the way I walked through with you

in the beginning of this interview. And I was calm. I was not crying. I was just like talking. I remember I couldn't look anyone in the face. I was just kind of looking down. I could press probably in like a shameful, a shameful way,

looking down and just expressing it. And then I remember the room was just silent like as i'm talking and i think everyone was just kind of in shock that this i guess big man was talking about being sexually abused and raped as a five-year-old boy by another man and i sat down back in my seat and there was two women on either side of me and i remember sitting down and just like bawling and crying probably harder than i've ever cried in my life and just letting it out just really letting it out like i was a kid that just like you know fell off the swing or something but just bawling crying i just could not control my emotions. I could not hold it in. I couldn't

act tough. I couldn't act like this big guy. I was just so, I was just ejecting this emotion. And thankfully, like I've so, I remember who was sitting next to me, but these two women were so loving and just hugging onto me and like crying with me, you know, having this moment with me where I was like so shameful for what I had just said. I felt so like low of myself and shameful and guilty. And I was just like, no one in this room is going to look at me the same ever again. They're all going to judge me. They're all going to, you know, think about weird things about me. They're going to look down at me. I just had all these thoughts bubbling up.

And so I was crying with these women in my arms. They ended up taking a break right then. So I go out of the conference room, out of the building, and just like, I need some air. So I'm going outside. I'm bawling outside and putting my head against the wall. Like I just didn't want anyone to look at me,

you know, it was just really shameful. And I was just like, I don't know if I can go back in this room. Yeah. It's like, what's going to happen? I was like,

I don't know if I go back in this room and I am just so blessed and grateful that I had this opportunity because what happened next was one of the most amazing healing moments for me. These men in the room came out to me and just looked me in the eyes and told me that I was their hero. moving for these other grown men who are older than me to express their feelings towards me about like i guess my courage they were like you are so courageous this is you know you know just i'm so sorry this happened but this is amazing that you're stepping up and sharing this and allowing yourself to experience it and you notice man after man came up to me and embraced me and hugged me. And again, because it was a man and the whole experience, I think it was just really healing for me

to have other men be like, thank you for what you're doing and for what you're creating and how loving you are towards women and towards other people. Yeah, and you're no and how loving you are towards women and towards other people. And, um, yeah. And you're no less a man. Yeah.

Because of this, no one looked down on me and I thought everyone would. Right. And it was, again, it was, it was a struggle to go back in there, but there was like,

I had all this support to like come back in. And I realized at the end of the day, but that my story, my experience that people have experienced just as much, if not more, in their own way, and it's not like I have this unique story that's worse than other people or better than other people. It's just my experience,

and another guy came up to me and was like, I was sexually abused as well, and no one knows about it. And thank you for creating this space for me to be able to tell you. And we got to have this connection and this bond and talk about it. And other men started opening up and sharing about things that happened to them. And again, some things were extremely traumatic and like, holy crap, this is unbelievable. And other things were, I would, I would say less traumatic,

but still very emotionally stressful for them in their own way. And so I remember just, it was like, that was really the first step for me. It was kind of like sharing it to a group of people. In a really safe container. In a safe place. And then having them say like this it's okay yeah and you're okay yeah yeah not like i'm going to be ashamed of this and not only you're okay but you know like what you just did right was astonishing yeah yeah

and uh again i think for me it was a challenge just by being this, you know, larger guy, whatever stereotype and not supposed to express my emotions and be vulnerable that way. It was a challenge for me because if that's how I've like grown up to think that I'm not supposed to do that. Um, and again, and, and I really am grateful for the space as well, because a lot of women came up to me and were just like opening up and sharing what had happened to them and just saying how much they trust men now in the world because of what I was able to create for them

and thanking me for opening up and for being vulnerable and that they judged me before because of the way I looked. And we've talked about that. The first time I of the way I looked and, you know. And we've talked about that. The first time I met you, I judged you big time. You know, he's this like big, you know, like goofy,

like jock. And I was like, and I learned like in minutes that I was dead wrong. I was being an idiot. But yeah, I mean, there's certain assumptions that people make about you just because of your physical presence right right right so these women were like you know you literally healed

me right now by what you were able to create and i trust men because of you like where i haven't trusted men for years because of the way i've been manipulated or this and that but now seeing what you're able to create and what's you you know, your way of being there, you know, they shifted in which I was just like, it was an honor for me to hear that from these men and women. It was like one of the greatest gifts they could have given me to see that I was able to create that for them. So, but now you're in an interesting place, right? Because you came clean one time before it was like 10 years ago, whatever was but then no one else knew right and then you went like back into the shell so like here's this moment again and it's like and this is like

okay yeah you got to make a decision again yeah how are you going to move forward well you know i thought about it and i was just like okay have i done the work have Have I let it out? I cried about this now. I've expressed it. I've told people about it in a safe place. And is this, has it left me? Am I still going to react or be angry or negative or hold a grudge? Or have I forgiven myself and forgiven everyone else? hold a grudge or you know

have I forgiven myself and forgiven everyone else and I was just like you know what I haven't gone deep enough I knew that I'd done a great amount of work just in that moment

and sharing it and talking with the people who were there about it kind of one on one and listening to them and talking to them about my stuff I knew that

i'd done a good amount of work i was like i was grateful and like patting myself on the back for like going there and getting vulnerable in it but i remember being like you know what my family doesn't know this about me for some reason i was just like i don't want to i don't want to be ashamed of this i want people to know about my life in a non-shameful way. And I didn't feel like it would be resolved until all my closest friends and my family just knew. I just wanted to share the experience. I didn't need to cry on them or have them say anything to me

or have them feel bad for me or tell me it was okay. Yeah, you just wanted to be out there. I just wanted to be honest and open about my life. And just be like, here's who I am. I'm an open book. And not try to put on this image that nothing happened to me. And so I remember calling my family members one by one. I think I called my mom first.

I might have called my sister first because I was kind of scared to tell my mom yeah my sister was so loving and then afterwards my sister Heidi she wrote me this like long email about how you know she thought I was so brave and how I was her hero and this and that and I was just like it felt amazing it's not I didn't need that but it was like it felt amazing I just wanted to have her listen to me. I called my brother and I remember asking my brother, you know, my brother's like my hero to me. And I remember asking him a question. I would go, I had some, I had some coaching from a friend of mine, Kavita, who's a relationship

coach actually. And I asked her, I was kind of telling her about this experience and I was like, you know, I want to make sure when I tell people That I tell them in an appropriate way that doesn't make them feel bad or make them feel anything except for like It's a safe place for them to listen. Yeah And she was like start off by asking the question. Is there anything? That I could do in my life that would make you not love me and

I was just like I didn't understand it, but I was like, okay i'll ask it And I asked this my brother I was like is there anything that I was like, okay, I'll ask it. And I asked this of my brother. I was like, is there anything that I could have done in my life or that I could do ever in my life in the future that would make you not love me? And he was like, absolutely not. And I was like, oh, okay. And again, my brother went to prison, so I was just like, what else can you do that could make me not love you?

So I was like, okay. I created this safe place for him. I was like, I just want to share with you something that happened to me. And I went through and shared with him. And he was like the most amazing human being. His response was so loving and nurturing. And he was like, you're really the one that all of us look up to in the family for what you're creating, like your life, your career, your dreams. Like you're our hero.

And I was just like so moved by his words and just felt, you know, he started to open up about things that he'd never share with me. me and you know again i created a space by opening up being vulnerable for other people to open up and be vulnerable with me and create this deeper connection and relationship with my family that i've a deeper sense of connection than i've ever had in my life and i've been with them for 30 years but it was like i really got to know them when i started to connect with them on this vulnerable open level as opposed to just, Hey, what's up, bro? It was up sister. You know,

what are you up to today? Normal surface stuff. I, it's like I have this connection with my family now for us to be able to open up in a vulnerable place that I've never, you know, that I've always wanted, but never had.

And it's like this deeper bond. It's like, it's amazing. The connection we have now. When you talked to your brother, were you curious at all about whether this happened to anybody else in your family? I'm curious. I still, you know, no one opened up to me about sexual abuse.

I remember my sister Heidi was like, I always thought something happened to you. She kind of like sensed it. She was like, I always thought something happened to you. She kind of like sensed it. She was like, I always thought something happened to you. I was like, really? How did you get to tell? She's like, I just felt it. She never asked me though.

And I don't know. I have no clue if something happened to any of them when they were children. None of them opened up to me about that specifically. They opened up about other things. But it's possible. There's one person that you still see your sister your brother yeah i told my other sister too katherine then my mom yeah i told my mom and i think she felt like she kind of had a hard day she was like very emotional and i think

she was crying like the rest of the day on the phone she was like very loving and sweet and i came to her right away i was like listen mom i want to tell you something but i want you to know it's not your fault like this is not something you did so i set the stage um but i kind of walked her through what happened and she was just like you know i feel really bad as a mother it's my job to protect you and to be there for you and i wasn't there for you i was like yeah but i didn't tell you and you didn't know and you didn't know the babysitter had a son who you know he seemed like a normal guy you know you didn't know he had this dark side or whatever I was like it's okay

I was like because I had gone through the process of actually forgiving the guy you know went through my process of forgiving. But the most important person I forgave was myself because I wasn't, I didn't forgive myself. And that's why I was so defensive and reactive and angry. It was just like upset at myself for 25 years. So I'd forgiven everyone in the process of the experience. And I took responsibility for it. You know, and a lot of people are like, how can you take responsibility when you didn't know what was happening? It's not like I take responsibility. I just, I am responsible for the situation. You know, it's a situation that I was in. Yeah. And I mean, cause I'm sure some people are going to listen to that and they're actually going to recoil to hear

you say that. Um, but it's, I mean, I, this is my lens. My lens is not that you're taking responsibility for what somebody did to you when you were five years old but at this moment in time today you're taking responsibility for how you choose

to process it and move forward exactly and that's so it's like you're taking responsibility from for the way that you now

move through this yeah and interact with the world in this moment exactly because I can either be a victim and have this be an experience that controls me

and holds me back and has me hesitate and be closed off in every relationship moving forward. Or I can use it and say, you know what? What can I learn from this? And how can I ensure that I don't create this in my life moving forward? That I don't create negative feelings from people that, you know, people feel safe and that I'm honest and open and always, you know, expressing what's on my mind.

And being, you know, communicating as opposed to manipulating or whatever else may be happening and really allowing other people to make decisions based on my honest communication. Yeah. And also to a certain extent, maybe to a large extent, you know, having this voice in the back of your head that kind of like feels more comfortable that in any given reaction, like in any given experience, whether it's a romantic relationship, friends, business, that you feel more comfortable that your reaction is actually to what's going on in front of you rather than what's going on, what a traumatic incident a long, long time ago. We can never entirely leave any of that behind,

but at least you can, you use the word mindfulness a number of times, you become more mindful and at least you can zoom the lens out more easily and say wait a minute and what am i reacting to yeah i mean if i'm honest know, there's probably going to be some war in my lifetime and there's probably going to be some things that happen that I don't want to happen either to other people around me to other, you know, something's going

to happen in the world where this sucks. And I can either choose to allow these instances to control me and have me live in fear and play small in the world and be safe and live in a little bubble. Or I can experience the experiences when they happen and move forward with courage, vulnerability, compassion, openness, and love and create the change that I want to change for myself as kind of lame as that sounds, but really show people what it's going to take to step up in a powerful way.

When breakdowns happen or when things that seem horrible happen and how to be responsible for every situation. So I'm choosing moving forward. Does that mean I'm going to never be reactive or never be guarded or defensive or angry or not forgive certain things? That's probably going to happen at some point.

But I feel like I'm at a place where i've done so much work on myself and i've communicated clearly with a lot of people with where i'm at i've got the support to support me when a breakdown happens that i can quickly shift out of it you know there's an instance i told you about this morning where i'm like years ago this would have controlled me this would have like taken over my my body my mind and I would feel like I would have to fix the problem fix it and solve it and be there and like give all of my heart my emotion until I'm like exhausted because I take all the responsibility and blame and I feel guilty and all these things. But I don't feel that way anymore.

Like I'm, I'm able to like go through the process, experience it, communicate it clearly with people and then move forward and stick to my truth. I think that's been a valuable lesson going through this process of opening up and sharing with people. Yeah. It was interesting that,

and tell me if this is, um, I'm not going to overshare here, I hope, but, you know, so you were sharing this with me this morning as we're hanging out, and we're not going to go into, you know, like what the circumstance is, but you also came to me

because you're like, I actually feel okay about this. Yeah. Should I feel bad? Right. You know, so there's, it's so interesting that, you know. Well, that was my default,

to feel bad. Yeah, right. To feel like, yeah. But I think what's great is that, You know, so there's, it's so interesting that, you know. Well, that was my default to feel bad. Yeah, right. To feel like, yeah. But I think what's great is that, you know, you have now a small group of friends who you trust. Yeah. With pretty much anything you can come to and say, hey, listen, like, I've done a lot of work. Like, and I'm reacting differently than I ever would have. You know, is that okay?

Because there's still that, like, there's still the nugget of a voice in your head, you know? And I think it's so important for people to have that smoke with people around them so that they kind of like, because we constantly need, you know, like we need other people sometimes to pull us out of that abyss that still can be like a bit of a default mode. Yeah. My automatic.

Yeah. It's going to draw me back to my automatic. But it was awesome to see that you like when you when you came to me that you had already kind of come to the place where like i'm okay with this i just want to make sure that like i shouldn't feel bad yeah yeah and i'm like no it's all it's good you know like you're yeah it's awesome it's awesome to see you but um you know and i i think one of the um one of the big powerful things you know for me just moving through this conversation with you and having other conversations over the years and the last few months especially is just something that Brene Brown kind of brought to the public eye in a huge way last year, which is that we're taught to assume that vulnerability is weakness. Vulnerability is weakness.

And in fact, more often than not, if not close to always, vulnerability is a source of strength. And not only strength for you, but strength for those around you because when they see you live it, you model it and you allow other people to step into theirs and connect with something deeper in themselves.

It's like if your brother and your family, they're like, you don't know this, but you're our hero. So when you model that, it's like you're opening up the world for them to step into on a high level. And then look what happens with your first 30 years later. There's like a new relationship there. Yeah, I think Brene Brown is obviously an inspiration. years later yeah there's like a new relationship there yeah i think you know bernie brown is

obviously like an inspiration sean stevenson i heard him give a talk about vulnerability and how to like he gave a presentation about how to leave people breathless and he's been on the podcast and talking about vulnerability i remember just being so inspired by his stories of vulnerability for his life and thinking you know I don't have to portray this big, strong, got it all figured out all the time. I can open up. And actually, by being vulnerable, it's going to make me stronger. It's going to make me strong. And connect with people on a deeper level that's going to strengthen our relationship.

Whether people know me personally or just know me from afar. And it's been powerful. I feel stronger than ever now, and I feel humbler than ever now, so grateful. I feel calmer. I feel at peace. I feel like I can – I just feel really centered and grounded and not frustrated or confused. And it feels amazing.

Yeah. I've since said about you. There's been a huge shift over the last year, really. Not even the last year, but last couple of months. Yeah. Yeah. And just since I've been doing all the work. Yeah.

Yeah. And the more people I talk to about it, you know, one-on-one. last couple of months yeah yeah and just since i've been doing all the work yeah yeah and the more people i talk to about it you know one-on-one i've only been sharing it one-on-one ever since this experience with my friend my family my friends i started telling you and a few other close friends of ours and it wasn't again to like make people feel bad about me or to make them feel responsible but it was really just to like, Hey, this is who I am. I want you to understand a deeper level of me and kind of, this is what I'm committed to moving forward. Here's what you can expect from me moving forward now that you know this about me.

And it's been like, you know, the first couple of times I talked about it with my family, I was scared and like intimidated and nervous. And now it's become easier and easier to share and it's not a challenge to say what had happened it's not a challenge yeah and i think my final you know i really wanted sorry go ahead no i was just gonna say i mean you know one of the things that struck me um is i i've now heard you share this with me twice yeah you know and the first time i was struck by how almost clinical it was but there was still emotion there and sitting here now it's probably a couple months later yeah um you seem more just it's weird to say at ease with it i feel like it it seems like that so i guess and maybe this is where you were leading also it's like

now the leap to putting this out to everybody what's that about you know I had this you know I wasn't sure if I wanted to kind of like openly publicly talk about this for a couple reasons like what if people thought something about me what if they thought it was for the wrong reasons or, you know, my ego came up. What if they're going to judge me, this and that? What if people are not going to be responsive to the stuff I was putting out in the future afterwards? What if they would, you know, whatever. What if my business was going to suffer? What if people didn't want to, you know, bring me to speak anymore?

Things like that. My conversation was coming up. And I really didn't want to do it if it was going to put people off in a negative way. Like I just wanted to make sure. I wanted to come from a place of, one, being completely vulnerable and open to the world about who I am. And two, creating a safe place for other people who've been sexually abused in any way to. who've been sexually abused in any way to, and if they haven't experienced it or dealt with going through the process of understanding it yet,

that I guess kind of give some insights on how they could or that it was okay to, and it's a safe place to do that. And I'm not saying you need to let me know or leave a comment on the blog or anything crazy like that. If you'd like to, that's fine. But more than like, it's okay. If you've gone through this experience in any way,

any type of sexual abuse that you're not a bad person that you don't have to like feel guilty that you don't, you can forgive yourself and you can forgive the other person because, you know, not being in a place for forgiving really made me a prisoner. I was a prisoner to these negative emotions for 25 years because I was holding on to this resentment about myself and this other person. And I would not forgive myself and this other person.

And that's what caused a lot of the uncertainty of the anger and resentment and fear was this feeling of not being able to forgive. And I want everyone out there to know that it's okay to forgive yourself and the other person if this has happened to you. And if it hasn't happened to you, it's okay to forgive people with anything,

of emotional abuse. Anyone who's done you wrong. Anything. Any variety. Anything. Like if you're holding on to any resentment towards someone, it's not serving you. It's not serving you in stepping into your greatest

level as a human being and creating the life of your dreams and the career you want, the types of feelings, the passion you want to have every moment of your dreams and the career you want, the types of feelings, the passion you want to have every moment in your life, the relationships, it's holding you back from your greatness

by holding on to this resentment. So there's secrets, vulnerability, and forgiveness. Three huge things swirling around that invitation, which is to step out of the shadows. And again, like you said, that doesn't mean dropping a comment here.

That means in whatever way is appropriate for your life, your condition, where you're at, the way that you need to do that. How do you move? How do you way that you need to do that. How do you move? How do you take that and start to move through it and bring it out of the shadow in the most appropriate way for you? We can't tell you what that is.

And that can literally, that doesn't mean you have to tell anyone also. That can literally be writing a letter to yourself and then lighting a fire and burning it, and just you going through the process of you experiencing the process of forgiveness and letting something go. Yeah, so let's go a little bit more into that.

Sure. Because the notion of forgiving somebody who has done something horrible to you, it's not an easy thing not easy at all and especially what if someone's killed someone what if someone you know did horrible there's horrible things that have been done and i get it it's not easy and what if someone killed your whole family you know there's like i've heard experiences of people's entire families being killed by drunk drivers how do you forgive someone who's dead that killed your entire family?

Like this is not easy. And I'm not saying I'm, you know, an expert in this. Yeah. I don't have, I wish I had answered. I'm not saying that you need to forgive people or you don't need to.

I'm not telling you what to do. What I'm saying is it's going to be really hard for you to step into your greatness and love fully and be committed to people and have an amazing life without, you know, if you don't forgive yourself and someone else, it's going to be like, Oh, you're going to be a prisoner in your negative emotions.

And if that's the life you choose to live, then I'm not saying that's bad. I'm not saying that's wrong. I'm not saying that's wrong. I'm just saying that's not stepping into your highest potential as a human being. I'm seeing as a future podcast guest some psychotherapist who's an expert in forgiveness. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

How do you actually do it? Yeah, I would love to know more. I mean, I just know what worked for me. The process I went through was sharing it with a group of people, then one by one with everyone in my in my immediate life and then i knew that i wanted to create a space because i do have a a platform and a podcast i knew i wanted to i was asking you i was asking a lot of people i was like do you think i should share this publicly because i really don't want to if it's

going to come across in the wrong way right like opportunistic yeah i really don't want to if it's going to come across in the wrong way. Like opportunistic. Yeah. I really don't want to do this if it's going to hurt people as opposed to support people. And a lot of people were like, I think it would be an amazing thing for you to do. And so I just said, you know what, Jonathan, I'd love for you to facilitate this for me so I don't just ramble about an experience. No, and so much love to you for just having the trust in me,

the faith in me to just have that conversation with you publicly. I know you've been struggling with this for a while and I can certainly understand, especially out there in the world that we live in, that people will process this through whatever filter their life brings to listening. And no matter how much you try and come from a loving place with this, no matter how much you try and do this in the name of allowing people to rise, there will be people who will be like, oh, it's opportunistic. He's trying to build audience and right um and just certain sense you can't you gotta you know let that go too and just

know like you know what my intention is i know my heart like deep down that i'm doing this this is right action yeah this is right action yeah i'm doing this for the right reasons and I feel it in my heart. And that doesn't mean that it won't be haters, but that like knowing it comes from that place allows you to be much more okay when and if that does happen. And the truth is like the vast majority of people will rally, not only to support you, but to support the conversation and to grow the conversation and then maybe allow other people to step into their own journeys on a different level.

I feel like it's not being talked about enough with, you know, I feel like a lot of people who haven't shared their experience and because they haven't shared it, it's not on the forefront of people's minds and it's not, people think it's okay to do to like little kids and it's's not on the forefront of people's minds and it's not people think it's okay to do to like little kids and it's just not okay and so i want to step up and share my experience to let people know that it's not okay and to make sure that you like do talk to your kids or whatever and let them know like hey if this ever comes up for you give them some guidance you know i'm not a parent so i can't tell you what to do. But let people be aware of it. Have conversations with your kids on a weekly basis or monthly basis, I would say,

and ask them, is there anything that's happened? Or is there anything you'd like to talk about that you feel ashamed of or anything? Create a space for them. And maybe that means you need to be vulnerable as a parent first and really open up about you. And maybe there's a right time and place, and I'm just throwing out ideas. But yeah, I just want to be having a conversation.

In some sense, this is a selfish thing for me to really continue to heal. I feel like I'm healed. I've gone through the process, and I've let it go, and I've forgiven. But like you said, I don't know, will this ever go away? If I stop talking about it, is it going to go away? Right.

I don't know. But I mean, you know. And me expressing it makes me feel stronger. Yeah. And I guess to a certain extent, the broader you go with it, the further you step out of the shadow and into the light. Exactly.

Exactly. So, yeah. And as a parent, you know, obviously, I hope that, you know, I would always create space for my kid to feel okay coming to me, coming to my wife, with whatever, whether it's bad grades or like a spat in school to, you know, God willing, nothing ever major happens. But, you know, as a parent, you're always, I'm not the only parent who I'm sure is listening to this.

I'm sure there are zillions. One of your biggest hopes as a parent is always that you create enough, a space of safety and love so that you you would hope that your kid would come to you with any kind of challenges you know that's always one of the it's one of the concerns that you have as a parent is that you don't want secrets to build up um because you feel like your kid can't trust you with something yeah and i would definitely say you know whether you're a parent who's experienced sexual abuse or rape yourself, we were trying to find statistics online before, and we still don't know what it is,

but I know there's a number of people, it seems like one in every six or seven people have had some type of sexual abuse in their life, whether it's a small or a rape. But I think if you have experienced that in any way, But I think if you have experienced that in any way, I just want you guys to know that you are such amazing human beings that I love you so much and that it's okay. It's not the end of the world and you can still create amazing relationships and an amazing life for yourself, even though you've experienced that. And I just want everyone to know that if they've ever experienced that, or if anyone in their family has experienced that to just give them a safe place to feel loved and that a safe place to talk about it. For me, that's what I

needed was a safe place to talk about it without feeling me, that's what I needed, was a safe place to talk about it without feeling ashamed, even though I still felt ashamed. And just know that some people may not want to talk about it, but I think it's holding them back if they're not talking about it and they're still guarded or defensive

or something's holding them back in their life. So just continue to create a safe place until they are open to talking about it. Yeah. I think it's probably a great place for us to come full circle and wrap up also. It's been, like I said,

it's been, um, it's been an honor. I appreciate you having the faith in me to just have this conversation in a comfortable way. And, uh, and,

um, and you're my hero for, uh, you know, not for going through what you went through, but just for your decision to move through it. Well, I acknowledge you for being an amazing friend, for, again, allowing me to have a safe place.

You're one of the first people I thought of and talked to when I wanted to have this podcast and this episode. So what you're creating in the world has created a safe place in my heart to just share freely with. So I acknowledge you for the huge gift you are to this world and what you continue to do with all of your projects. So thank you. Thanks, man. In this video I will show you how to make a simple and easy-to-use I am going to use a brush to paint the background.

I am going to use a beautiful and beautiful flower. I will show you how to make a beautiful flower. Thank you. Thank you.