The School of Greatness - 631 Create the Opposite of Hate with Sally Kohn

Episode Date: April 23, 2018

"Just because hate feels justified doesn't mean it's justifiable." - Sally Kohn Let's be honest: we've all done things we regret. They may have been when we were kids or adults. They may have affected just ourselves or many people around us. But it's likely we remember doing them because we regret them. This is something that's not easy to talk about. But there's something really valuable in recognizing the parts of ourselves that are capable of doing things we regret. I recently met a woman who gave a TED talk (and has now written a book) about this exact topic. Sally Kohn is a CNN commentator who has attracted huge amounts of haters during her career as a political speaker. As our society has gotten more divided, hate seems to be taking over a lot of actions and discussions. So Sally decided to do a deep dive study on why we hate and what the opposite of that is. She talked to her own haters, she traveled to countries that have experienced genocides, and she discussed the psychological pieces of what's going on. This was a powerful conversation about a topic that isn't always easy to discuss. I really appreciated Sally's willingness and honesty in discussing how we can each shift our habits out of hate and bias and into open-mindedness and respect. No matter what you've been through or what you believe, I know there's something valuable to learn for all of us in Episode 631. Some questions I ask: Do we believe our friend group or the media more? (9:50) How do we start thinking differently about people [versus relying on bias]? (13:10) Why did you start working for Fox News with your point of view? (19:30) How much bullying is happening today in schools? (30:22) How do we start to repair our habits around how we treat each other? (37:03) In this episode you will learn: What getting hate mail taught Sally about her own ability to be mean (3:05) The difference between our brain's hardware and its software (8:15) What happens when we wear "masks" to hide our true identity (18:50) Why it's important to talk to people who believe differently than you do (21:45) How mass atrocities can happen (and be avoided) (27:20) Why we don't usually see ourselves as the starters of hate (38:37) How to forgive and understand haters (40:15) Plus much more...

This is episode number 631 with Sally Cohn. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. What is up, my friends?

I'm so glad that you're here right now. I just got back from a two-week journey in New York City where we were working on a very big project that I've been working on for about a year and a half. And I'll be announcing it very soon possibly this week so look out for the announcement on my email newsletter on Instagram YouTube all the places that I like to hang out and I hope you're having an amazing week I hope this is a good day for you I hope you're having an amazing week and just a reminder of how lucky we actually are. No matter how much you're going through right now, no matter how bad things might

be, you have so many amazing things available for you. You're so much greater off than so many other people in the world. And perspective and gratitude is one of the keys to happiness. And if we don't have perspective and if we're not grateful for what we do have, no matter how bad it may seem right now, it doesn't matter if you're going through a divorce, if you're going through a breakup, if you're having a health challenge, if you've got some challenge with friendships or in business or you're stressed out with money, whatever it may be, it could always be a lot worse.

Unfortunately, there are people out there who have it way worse than you. Now, I'm not saying you need to be excited about where you're at, but you have a lot to be grateful for. Just listening to this episode right now tells me that you have a lot going on in your life and that you're hungry for more, that you desire to create more out of your life. And that's why you're here, to create more, to increase your lifestyle, to have a better life, to achieve the dreams that are inside of you. And that's why you're here. And I'm excited about this episode because we've got Sally Cohn on. Before we dive in,

I want to share a quote with you from Nelson Mandela, who said, people must learn to hate. And if they can learn to hate, then they can be taught to love. For love comes more naturally to the human heart than its opposite. Oh, gosh, there have been so many years where I've wasted my life hating people or resenting things from my past and holding on to them. And all it did was hurt me and hurt the people around me. And when I learned to come from a place of love, which is still, you know, a work in progress, it doesn't, you know, sometimes I still hold on to things and I get hateful. You know, it's usually only for short moments or maybe a couple of days at most if it's something extreme. But the key is to learn and be taught to

love because that's really our human heart. That's our human nature. And Sally Cohn is one of the leading progressive voices in America today. She's a writer, activist, and CNN political commentator and the host of the State of Resistance podcast. And before that, she was a Fox News contributor. Before that, she worked for over 15 years as a community organizer. Her writings have appeared in Washington Post, New York Times, Rollingstones.com, USA Today, Times, and many other outlets. And her first two TED Talks have got over 3 million views. And her new book, The Opposite of Hate, is out right now. And we talk about what Sally was motivated to do after getting tons of hate mail herself.

Also, why finding someone to blame for the world's problems is not a good solution. And how to become aware and change your subconscious thoughts of hate towards individuals or judgment things like that also the best way to handle bullying today and what sally learned from visiting rwanda and talking to survivors of genocide before we dive in i want to give a shout out to the fan of the week. This is from Brendan, who said, no matter your mood, the podcast is sure to inspire and motivate you to make your life the life you have always dreamed of. Lewis has gotten me up on my feet and into the world of life coaching and helping to bring people closer to their dreams, physical, emotional, mental,

and spiritual. It is taught by experts and guests in the School of Greatness. So there is absolutely no reason to pass this up. Dive on in and make your dreams happen. I love that, Brendan. Thank you for sharing your review. And if you guys haven't left a review yet, you know you can head over there right now on the podcast app, on your phone, iTunes, whatever, and leave a review and get a chance to be shouted out for the fan and review of the

week all right my friends let's dive into this one creating the opposite of hate with sally cone welcome back everyone to the school's greatest podcast we have sally cone in the house good to see you nice to see you man thanks for being here, man. Thanks for being here. I'm really excited. We're in a different studio today. I'm in New York City, not in LA studio. But you wouldn't know. There's no windows. Exactly.

But we are here, and you have a new book out today. It's called The Opposite of Hate, A Field Guide to Repairing Our Humanity. Make sure you guys go check it out. Pick up a copy. Very excited about this. And I forgot there were videos, so I was's he who's he showing this book to someone yeah lewis it's a podcast they can't see the book i got it now i'm all right it's okay now i'm curious i listened to your ted talk about uh sticky vicky and did you i don't shouldn't

have that reaction like i know it's out there i just wrote a book about it and did a ted talk but still every time people bring it up i feel feel like I get this pain in my stomach. Yeah, go ahead. And Sticky Vicky is, for those who haven't seen the TED Talk, she was a girl in the fifth grade, I believe, that you bullied, teased, whatever you want to call it. Bullied. She smelled weird. She had bad hygiene. And she was awkward, let's say, like most of us kids growing up. But it sounded like to me

that a lot of the kids in the class were always made fun of her. And you said even teachers made fun of her. Teachers. I mean, that's really sad. That's really sad. It really is. But I just this I think this stuff still happens. It happens. I got picked on by teachers. And right. Yeah. I mean, what does that do to your sense of justice and righteousness when the people who are supposed to be treating everyone fairly and equally are picking on you? That's so, by the way, the fact that other kids did it and the teachers did it didn't make it anymore. Right. But, yeah, one of the things, you know, it's not like, I don't think I was in denial or something, but I guess when I, so I was a community organizer for 15 years.

What does that mean? So it means that I, great question. It means that I went around the country and I worked with local groups of folks who were trying to make change in their communities. So whether it was get a stop sign at an intersection that was really dangerous or protect immigrants in their community or fix public assistance policies, I helped them do whatever they wanted to do better and connect with folks to make change at the state and national level. So I worked on a range of issues. So you rallied communities together. Exactly.

And I did things like train people how to give a speech in city council or how to go talk to the media at a press conference or how to organize a house party and get 100 people in your living room to talk about the sewage problem in the community. And I fell into media, which literally, like I was given a speech, someone saw me. They're like, you need to come on more. Yeah, come do TV. And I said, no, no, I don't do that. I do church basements. That's my- Rally come on more. Yeah, come do TV. And I said, no, no, I don't do that. I do church basements. That's my-

Rally with the people. Yeah. Ground level. And long story short, I ended up going and being a talking head in 2009, 2010. And ended up working at Fox News for two and a half years. The reason I bring it up is I hadn't thought about Vicky. Pretty much. Occasionally, I'd have sort of memories and ruminations and whatever

but it wasn't until I started getting hate mail when I was at Fox News something I'd never experienced in my life both online on Twitter and and just actual I mean hate email um which at least has the benefit of being more convenient and less creepy than getting mail at your own house uh and i started to get these like just strangers saying and writing these incredibly vicious things to me and i thought i had this sort of moment of like who the heck does this who's mean to someone for no reason and then i realized oh me i also like and i i started to have this uh this this you know memory that i'd never forgotten but that it kind of faded into the back became clearer and clearer to me and i started to feel worse and worse for what i'd done which to be completely honest i don't think i remember the entirety of but i have bits and pieces of memories of just having, you know, the one I talk about in the TED Talk and in the book is standing outside the bathroom hall waiting for, you know, standing outside the hallway of fifth grade waiting for Vicky to come out of the bathroom.

And I made up a survey where I was pretending to ask about shampoo preferences. Like I was actually doing some kind of legitimate survey for science class or something. And she comes out of the bathroom and I ask her what shampoo she uses. And she says, white rain. And I will tell you, I really, I'm not exaggerating when I say I don't remember pretty much anything from fifth grade. I can still hear her saying white rain. And then class is let out. The hallway fills up with kids and i run down the hallway and i'm shouting you know sticky vicky uses white rain shampoo don't use white rain shampoo or you'll smell like sticky vicky that was i i i recognize there are people who've

endured worse believe she by the way i know endured worse believe. She, by the way, I know, endured worse bullying. But still, to go through life thinking of yourself as a mostly good person and on the side of goodness and kindness and have to wrestle with the fact that you, I, have the capacity for both kindness and cruelty, that was really the insight that led to this book.

So when that came up for you in the back of your mind about that you'd done these things to this person when you were a kid, is that what made you, and then you wrote a letter to her, is what I heard, right? You wrote a letter to her hoping that she would forgive you or something, but she didn't.

She said, you know, pay it forward and kind of redeem yourself on the world, make the world a better place. Yeah. Is that what set you off on this journey then? So it was that combined with this experience of being hated at getting hate mail. Yeah.

And which is just, I mean, for people who haven't gotten it, especially if you're someone like me who spent your life kind of believing in the goodness of people and the potential of people and the ability of folks to come together and be more than the sum of their parts and do great things. And that had been my whole philosophy of humanity. And suddenly these trolls come and shook me to my core. Not only what kind of people can do this, but what kind of society produces people that do this? And it was sort of that combined with honestly being like a liberal lefty lesbian suddenly setting foot into Fox News thinking they would all hate me. And they were actually really a lot of really, really nice.

And meanwhile, I had to be like, oh, wait, I hate them. Like I. Right. And so it's suddenly every it was like everything I thought got turned upside down. It's like, oh, I'm a nice person, but I have this capacity for cruelty in the past and present. And here are these people I think believe really cruel things in the world, but they can be actually really, really nice. And then here are random strangers who are being mean to me for no reason. And it made me want to understand, why do we do this? Why? As people, why as a society do we hate? And what can we do about it? Because you mentioned that you're not born to hate people of color or people of different sexual tendencies or whatever it may be or different religions. We're not born that way, but we become that way based on the culture around us, right? Yeah, this was one of my favorite metaphors someone gave me, a psychologist gave me in the book, which is, so we actually are, as human beings, we have evolved a capacity

to hate. That's undeniable. I really wanted to find out otherwise. I was desperate to find out otherwise. But it's just, that's the case. Like, you know, look, when we were our ancient little tribal selves, I guess, somewhere, you know, hitting rocks with other rocks, and we were in our little tiny tribe, and a different tribe appeared over the hill, We were freaked out for good reason. And so this kind of us, them,

your preference for the us and your fear or even hostility toward them is actually, that is hardwired into the way our brains work. Right, exactly. Fight or flight, all of that stuff. But the analogy is to think about hardware versus software. So the capacity to hate is the hardware we all have as human beings. That's the way our brains are designed and our psychology is designed. But who we hate, that's software, man. That has been encoded into us by society. So there's not some part of your brain that goes, you know, hey, let's be racist or hey, let's be anti-Semitic or Islamophobic.

That's not in our neurons, in our DNA. That doesn't, that's not there. That has been programmed into all of us by our history, our habits, just the air we breathe. You can't grow up in the United States of America without having certain ideas about gender, certain ideas about race, certain ideas about nationalism. That is software. The good news of that is though, it means we can change it.

Do you think we believe our peers more or the media more? Like if a friend of ours in a friend group in fifth grade is saying, well, these people are bad or this religion is bad or whatever it is or being gay is bad or whatever it is, if we hear that over and over versus hearing someone on the media saying these things over and over or showing bombings from a certain country over and over, which one is more influential? Do I have to pick? I mean, here's the problem, right? Is increasingly they're saying the same things, right? And this is where I think, you know, one of the things I say in my book is that there's a spectrum of hate, right? They're not all the same. Right. So I'm not saying that bullying is as bad as genocide, but they're related. They're all about hate and otherizing and demeaning and dehumanizing certain people

and certain groups of people more likely than others. And by the same token, I'm not saying that explicit hate is the same thing as implicit or unconscious, but they're related, right? So the fact is, is that, again, you grow up in this country and increasingly in this world, but in the West, but you grow up in the United States of America, and you are going to have certain ideas about people of color and white people, certain ideas about men and women. You're going to have them, whether you're white or black or man or woman, because of the unconscious

hatred that comes out of your peers' mouths, right? It also comes out of your- Ignorance, the unconscious ignorance. Or just, I mean, ignorance is even, that's almost a blameworthy concept. And I'm really not interested in blame, right? Like, I am personally not responsible for the history that got us to this point. I'm not going to wallow. There's almost something

a little too self-referential about blame for me. Like, I didn't get us here. It's not my fault. But it is my responsibility to do something differently going forward. And so those ideas come from the media and they come from our peers. Right. So like we know that the media covers when black folks commit crimes and white folks commit crimes. Right. They tend to show the white people who allegedly committed a crime. They show their like college or high school yearbook photo.

And they show the black folks in a perp walk. We know that. That's statistical. That's a thing. We know that when a white right-wing Christian terrorist commits an act of violence, that it's versus when a person who's a muslim commits an act of violence in the united states the muslim committing an act of violence or terrorism gets covered four times more wow even

though three quarters of uh terrorist acts since 9-11 have been committed by white extremists so and and that also that's about the media that's about what we end up sharing on social media, which is us. That's about what we talk about at the dinner table when we're, you know, the way we, with our kids and our friends, we're more afraid of these people than those people. That's all of us.

And so the answer to hate is starting to be more conscious of the ways that we think about and treat people differently based on who they are and the groups they belong to in ways that are unfair and unjust. How do we do that? How do we start thinking differently? I mean- When we have the same pattern running through our mind subconsciously or unconsciously,

how do we catch it? And then what's the step moving forward? So the good news is that there's actually evidence that being more aware of our unconscious biases helps us counter them. I mean, you can't do something about... This is kind of simple science. You can't do something about an unconscious thought, right? You have to make it conscious. You have to like bring it up to the surface so that then you can examine it and do something about it, which is different, by the way. We're still, let's be clear about something.

We're still debating as a country whether unconscious bias is even a real thing. So we're not even at the point where we can say, hey, OK, this is true. The, you know, inequities and injustices that now pervade. Look, you know, black kids who commit the same infractions in elementary school are more likely to get suspended than white kids. Right. You're more likely to be pulled over if you're black than if you're white. You're more likely to be arrested if you're black than you're white.

You're more likely to get a harsher, to be convicted if you're black than you're white. More likely to get a harsher sentence if you're black than you're white. Even though same levels of criminality. So we're still somehow, we're still debating why this is. The fact that there are these biases baked into both our minds and our institutions as a society. We can't, and some people say that the answer is pretend there's no difference.

Stop talking about the differences. I don't think that's the answer. In fact, first of all, I think our differences are what make us great. And especially in the United States, right? We are the out of one many country, right? E pluribus unum. This is our unique path as the United States of America to try to be. We've never done it perfectly, but to try to be a country of many where we are all equal, where we can all come here and all be treated equally and all have the same potential. That's our principles, our values, our beliefs, our aspirations, even though we've never perfectly achieved them. So I don't think our differences are a problem. I think our differences are what make us great. You have to be able to talk about the injustices and the inequality and acknowledge the footprint, the thumbprint, that history and culture have left in all of our minds.

We have to talk about it. And then, believe it or not, from there, you start to just be more conscious and then you catch it, you catch yourself. The other answer, by the way, is actually getting outside of our own bubbles. So for instance, we know that kids who go to racially integrated elementary schools, they don't develop as much racial bias at all to begin with. And teenagers who participate in racially integrated after school activities and sports, they reduce their racial bias.

They reduce their racial bias. So also it's about not just, right, but like knowing people of different classes, people who voted for different people, you know, who have different, you know, urban, rural, breaking up some of those divides. Right. That's where we start to get to change. Yeah. I feel very blessed and lucky to grow up in a very diverse experiences, traveling the world. I played, you know, football in the South. I was one of the only white guys on the team and just learn, you'd learn a different language. You learn different experiences. You can relate differently to people. Yeah. I grew up with seven different exchange students from

around the world who would teach me language, you know, cook their foods, talk about their experiences, what it was like in their country from five to about 14. My brother was in prison for four and a half years. So I would visit him and see, you know, talk to different inmates during visiting hours, uh, in like a, you know, group group visiting room and just learn from so many different people from walks of life where I felt like I was very lucky and fortunate to. And I'm sure I still judge and have these biases today, but I feel like I'm open and aware of things that are happening. And at least I'm willing to talk about them. And I do my best being like we talked about before, being a tall,

white, jock, straight man. You know, there's a lot of opinions about me and I try to constantly break through those and see people for where they're at. What I love about that, a lot of things I love about that. First of all, I always forget about exchange students. And you and I are of the generation where we had exchange students. Yeah, my sister was one too. That was like that right there. Like such an incredible and important piece of that whole puzzle you just described.

But I especially love two things. You said, look, you still have your biases. And you said it in a way though that wasn't like you weren't like putting on a hair shirt and punishing yourself. And it's just, it's a fact. Like I still have my biases. Like you and I both still every's just it's a fact yeah like i still have my biases like you and i both still every time we walk past a baked good we want to eat it we want to eat it just that's that's who you know hey nobody like it's not i don't loathe myself i don't get weighted down or or even um uh like stuck in just beating my, like, it is a fact. You still got some. And it's because I think you've

had so many different experiences and been so open to them that you can, I mean, I love the metaphor of the mask of masculinity, not only of the alliteration, which is frigging brilliant, and you know it, but because there's an interesting thing about masks, right? When you put on a mask, I know you've written this, but when you put on a mask, it both stops you from being seen and it stops you from seeing others. And again, that's not, I'm not beating up on the mask either. I'm just, that's just a fact. And so the more we can try to see and experience others in an open-minded way, right? I feel the same way. I was blessed to get to go work at Fox News. And I don't think a lot of people might say that, but I was.

Because it made me realize that these people I thought of as the enemy other weren't, and were far more complicated than the stereotypes I had. And taking off those masks is a blessing. Yeah. With your point of view, why did you go work at Fox News in the first place? How much time do we have? Not getting into politics too much, but I'm just curious. I know you say we're not talking politics. No, no. I mean, first of all, in the beginning, I did what little baby pundits do, right? I did Fox, I did CNN, I did MSNBC. And, you know, I did them all. And I had the opportunity one day I met Roger Ailes. He said, hey, would you want to come work here?

And I mean, by which that means just be an exclusive commentator on their network only. And I said, actually, I didn't say yes immediately. All my, it was my friends who, because yes immediately all my it was my friends who because out of organizing was my friends were all organizing the campaigns to shut down fox so i called them and was like hey guys um what are you gonna hate me if i do this right and i really wanted to get their honest feedback criticism take on this um and honestly their blessing which i did get because look the truth is first of all whatever you think of Fox News, someone has to go on, right? They're going to have someone go on. And the people are watching. And second, there are people watching. And at the

time, there were more Democrats watching Fox News than MSNBC or CNN, because the audience is that big. And what people helped me realize, and then I experienced experienced was just like the people on Fox's air aren't all a monolith, right? I'm still pleased to call Sean Hannity a friend. I'm grateful he has supported and blurbed the book. Just like the people on air aren't just the stereotype, neither are the people watching. They aren't all Sean Hannityity or all bill o'reilly they you know have doubts and questions and curiosities and and i look i believe in i'm an i'm an activist i believe in social change so you gotta if you want to change hearts and minds you

should be right why do people rob banks it's where the monies are i'm gonna go did i just say monies i did the monies i need more coffee but i hear you yeah this is funny because i get a lot of uh i don't know if it's hate but i just get a lot of critique when i go on certain media that isn't the most politically correct or like the most positive media and i'm like listen i'm trying to go to places that I'm not preaching to the choir. I went on, last year I went on Ellen and then the next day I went on Glenn Beck. And someone mentioned, they said, there's probably no one in the history

that's been on both those shows back to back days. And they were kind of upset at me for going on Glenn Beck. And I was like, listen, when I met the guy, he was super cool, very nice. We had an incredible conversation. And I'm trying to reach people that I'm not preaching to the choir to about letting go of the masks and helping heal humanity. I'm not trying to say the same thing to the same people.

And I think it's our duty, if we want to be activists, to reach out to people that maybe don't believe in the same things as us, or don't look like us, or don't talk like us, and try to learn and connect in a different way to make change. What did you say? And also, what's the alternative? It's like, okay, so let me understand this. Let's play this out for a second. By the way, Glenn's also a friend. And I think on the topic of masculinity is a really interesting ally in a lot of ways, right? You know, name a left-wing TV male talk show host who cries that much. Anyway, love you, Glenn.

But what's the alternative? You want to allow them, if you believe, for instance, that Glenn, you know, folks on the right, perpetuate prop-up systems of misogyny and sexism and rigid gender codes and rules that oppress us all so we should let them keep doing that yeah we should just be like all right well that lost that i'll talk to my people i'm just like i don, I don't understand. Like, don't you want them to change?

Right? Or be aware or think differently. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and like, I can't. I watch what's happened with marriage equality, which was, by the way, never my favorite issue. And I'm not married. And I think the state could get out of telling people what kinds of families are good families and bad families but whatever i you know now i have like friends on the right come up to me

and call my partner my wife and i have to be all she's not my wife but right like people changed on that issue and i think we would all agree it's a good thing so yeah you gotta you you rob banks because it's where the money is you gotta go talk to people where the people thank you the money's for remembering that should have had that extra coffee i'm curious what is the uh the most horrible thing you've ever said or done oh my god i love the laugh. Oh, my. What's the most horrible thing I've ever said or done? Because you talked about Sticky Vicky.

Yeah. And how this was a memory that you forgot about then came back because you realized that, hey, I'm also, as much as I'm trying to spread love and positivity of the world, I've been a bully or done bully like things to people so I'm just curious if there's if that was the worst thing or if there has been other things that you really aren't proud of or regretful for saying or doing to people um hello twitter i feel like you all could find all the things you

think are the worst things i've said and done and let me know um you know it's interesting the thing it's a it's a it's a really great question and there are a lot of things I know I've thought that I regret um and I'm I'm sure in my expressions and sometimes in my words and sentiments they've come out but that it it I'll be honest it really is there's no question in my life what I regret the most was what I did in fifth grade to Vicky. It haunts me. It just, and I can find peace and acceptance, I think, about a lot of things. I can't about that. of things. I can't about that. I still, I still, um, will have, you know, nightmares about it. And I, I feel, and, and it's that, again, I'm not saying that these things are the same at all,

but one of the, uh, things I did for the book is I went to Rwanda and talked to people who had been on both sides of the genocide there, which was the fastest genocide in human history. And 1994 wasn't that long ago. 800,000 people killed in 100 days. 800,000? 800,000. Oh. 800,000? 800,000.

Oh. And I, I mean, first of all, what I take away and what I think I try to capture in the book is the incredible, what it must take for people to forgive after something like that. And that there are, and that I spent time with people who, you know, a man and a woman sitting in her home with the man who had killed her husband and her children welcoming him into her home talking with him like they were friends that that grace that i don't have i don't know that i have the capacity for that when i was trying to understand what happened in rwanda um a philosopher i spoke with pointed out that mass atrocities don't happen because of a few psychopaths. They wouldn't be mass atrocities. The reason we

end up with mass atrocities, Rwanda, Serbia, the Holocaust, is because masses of people participate in them and that we all have. We like to think, you know, this is something that happens somewhere else to other people, right? We call it evil because that makes it somehow this sort of strange, spiritual, otherworldly thing. We all have that capacity to be so brutal and cruel. And it startles me, I think, and shakes me at a deep level on an almost daily basis that I know I have that capacity too because of what I remember doing to Vicky. And again, I mean, it's not for me, it's this constant warning

and reminder to try to be humble and not judge others when they then do cruel things. Um, but it also, it, it does, it haunts me. I regret it. Right. Were you bullied a lot yourself? Right. Were you bullied a lot yourself? No. Really? No, I was a bully. I mean, I, you know, it's funny. I don't remember.

It's not funny. Why do I do that? I say it's funny when things are like super not funny. I've noticed this about myself lately. Anyway, so it's not. It's called the Joker mask. God, dang it. I wrote about it. Dang it, Lewis. It's called the Joker mask. God, dang it. I wrote about it. Dang it, Lewis.

It's all good. And your wisdom. No, I'm just kidding. We don't really share what we do ourselves, too. At the end of fifth grade, I did something to some kid. I don't remember what I did. And the kid, I remember exactly where I was in school, in the lunchroom.

And the kid just broke down crying. And something snapped in me, and I realized, oh, this isn't, I gotta, this is what I did was wrong. I'm mean, this kid thinks I'm mean, people think I'm mean, like I, and that was that. Thankfully, yeah. And then I fortunately also switched schools, not unrelatedly, but that allowed me to have a fresh start.

Wow. But yeah, no, I was definitely not, I was the bully. Yeah. How much bullying is happening still today in schools? Cause I don't have kids. So I'm not aware as much, you know, I hear stories, but I'm not sure how is it, or is it more lovey dovey or is it more bully bully in schools right now? Because when I grew up, man, it was challenging. You know, really interesting, right? I mean, I'm 41. Yeah, 35. God, why do I think everyone's old like me?

It's fine. But I used to feel completely made fun of all the time. And maybe that's the story I tell myself. And maybe it was only like a handful of times that I blew out a portion. But I mean, I didn't have any friends, literally, to the point where there were kids in the neighborhood who said, you want to join our club? If you want to be a part of our club, you have to either answer a test or pay money. Oh, honey.

It was really bad. Wait, now inquiring minds want to know, Lewis. So they asked questions, and I was like, I don't know, eight maybe, maybe eight years old, maybe nine. And one of the questions was like, name an astronaut who's been on the moon. And I didn't know. And then I can't remember the second question. There was a bunch of questions. And I didn't know any of them, which made me feel stupid already. And they're like, sorry, you can't be our friend unless you give us money.

stupid already and they're like sorry you can't be a friend unless you give us money so i went home got like coins from my mom put it in a shoebox and brought it to like build or hang out with them in like their club and then i did that for one day and i was like i never went back after that because i was like this i feel horrible but that's the stuff that you guys are listening that's the stuff that i would like to send lew Lewis's money back with interest, that would be really noble to do right now. I don't blame these kids and it's all good. But I mean, there were instances like that all the time, you know, where I was picked last on sports teams. But a lot of these things drove me. Which is mildly ironic, but convincing.

It's funny, right? But a lot of these things drove me to be a better person. I saw like what other people didn't see in me in me. I was like, huh, they don't think I'm good. They don't think I'm smart. They don't think I'm this. And I used it as fuel to improve my life. I said, I'm going to become the best athlete I can be. And so I trained all day, all night, nonstop for years. Now, this is a whole other story. I did it with a chip on my shoulder to prove people wrong. And so even though I got the results, I was always unhappy and unfulfilled.

And I learned that that was the process of writing this book about masculinity. I was like, wow, I was so driven to be right and to win at all costs and to do this because I never wanted to feel less than. But even that unhappiness and sort of yearning led to a good thing for the world right so yeah I mean at the end of the day I'm I'm you know it all worked out but it's like I didn't have to go through 25 years of like resentment and like anger towards this bullying that happened or feeling less than or whatever so back to the question is it happening a lot today with social media and everything else that's available? Or do you feel like because it's so sensitive that parents have really rallied around like any bullying that's happening, like shutting it down right away? Yeah, it's, it's, so first of all, there's,

there's like an interesting point you just made there about adversity, right? And, and as a parent or just in general, thinking about how some adversity is a good thing. And by the way, some adversity is also how we develop compassion for others who experience more adversity. So we were talking. You should always have a perfect life that's like. We were talking before the mics were on. And I said, you know, my parents were like super duper extra over the top supportive when I came out, but my high school girlfriends were not. And so my first real experience of being.

They were not towards you or their parents were not. Towards the idea of us being gay, her or me or us together. And so my first experience of personal experience really being on the receiving side of prejudice and discrimination was that moment. And it made me want to make the world a better place. It made me an activist. It made me seek out, you know, and I started doing gay and lesbian, bisexual, transgender activism. And then it led to immigrant rights and criminal justice reform and more so that was out of my version yeah so there is a way in which you don't want to protect kids and i do worry about

you know like you and i i remember we were on the playground yeah unsupervised and some nasty stuff went down that i cannot believe went down under state supervision yeah exactly but on some level i like we got to roam the right i grew up like i don't we left the house at 9 a. But on some level, we got to roam the, right? I grew up like, we left the house at 9 a.m. on a Saturday. You came back at 5. No one knew where you were. Really bad stuff went down. Take your bike out.

Right. Yeah, yeah. So I do worry that we have a little overprotective kids. There is a lot of talk now about bullying. And so in some ways, things are getting kind of over-ascribed to bullying. Like any negative thing, it's like, yeah. Yeah, it's like, just work it out, kids. Like not, you know, so like they'll come and they'll be like, bullied me.

I'm like, no, they just called you a, you know, stupid head. And like, go work it out. Yeah, yeah. Say how it made you feel or whatever, yeah. At the same time, there's no question that there's still serious, real bullying happening. You know, we see some really disturbing examples of this. We know it especially is happening to gender nonconforming kids, to poor kids, to kids with disabilities. And it's happening online.

mean girl dynamics and all the, you know, race, gender, class, harassment and bullying, all of that is exacerbated tremendously online. And I think it's easier for those of us who are older to sort of say, it's just, you know, it's social media. It's not real. It's not whatever. But when you've grown up steeped in that such that your real and virtual identities are kind of conflated and we're obviously we're seeing people committing suicide based on online bullying. So it's it's it is deeply, deeply disturbing.

And it goes to to me then how we as adults. I mean, I honestly I hope I think it's important that high school and college kids have these conversations and I hope we'll read the book. But as adults, how are we setting the tone? Because when we set the tone of, oh, kids, don't bully. And then the way we talk about our neighbors or our coworkers- Is bullying. Or Trump supporters or Clinton supporters, and we're setting the tone of hate, we can all do a better job. Wow. So how do we start to repair the language and our ways of being? If we've been so conditioned a certain way for so long, how do we start to repair that so that humanity comes together? You know, I'd love to paint my book as some like really complicated thing here, but it's actually not.

I mean, I think, you know, like the stories in it, my stories, my struggles, the, you know, former terrorists and former neo-Nazis I spent time with, they're complex, inspiring stories. But at the end of the day, the answer isn't that hard here. It's not that hard to be nice, right? We know what it feels like to be treated with respect and dignity and kindness. It's the way we want to be treated, right? It all goes back to, when we're talking about childhood, one of the things I remember most about my childhood is this, you know, very 1980s print of the Golden Rule with like the, you know, populace of the world and this gilded, fake gilded, you know, like screen print, whatever. But the Golden Rule, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. We all learn this already. We know how to be kind. And the problem is, you know, here's, this is the

other thing. I think this is the most, to me, the most profound takeaway for me from this process of writing this book is no one thinks they're hateful. No one thinks. There's a few outliers, obviously, but even if you look at current Nazis and terrorists, they don't think they're hateful. No one thinks. There's a few outliers, obviously, but even if you look at current Nazis and terrorists, they don't think they're hateful. They think they are reacting to the hate of others. When it comes to hate, we all tend to have this sort of they started it philosophy and don't see ourselves as either participating in it or if we even acknowledge it, maybe it's because they did it first

and we're just reacting, responding, we're justified. And in that eye for an eye, the whole world becomes blind. So somewhere at some point, one of us has the individual possibility and potential and responsibility to make a different choice. Yes, there's pieces of public policy and what we do to deal with racism in the criminal justice system and the fact that we live in segregated communities and all of that and how our media is dividing us. And I talk about that and we need to do something about that, too.

I talk about that and we need to do something about that too, but it begins with each of us saying, I don't like the hateful society we're in. I don't like this culture of hate. And I'm going to look at what I can do. No matter what, I'm going to stop it. Yeah. Begins with each of us. How do we stop it when someone is doing something so unjust or so inhumane or killing people? How do we not have these negative, hateful feelings or thoughts towards them? If someone is killing everyone, you know, whether it be literally or metaphorically, how do we say, I love you, you know, you're the best.

Well, maybe you're not the best. Let's not go that far. I mean, look, I go back to the lessons I take from folks in Rwanda who, again, if they could manage to do it after what they've been through. How did they manage to do it? By believing, by understanding. It goes back to understanding that we all have this capacity for good and evil. And I also take a lot of inspiration from leaders in nonviolence and peace movements like Martin Luther King. What we forget is that the core idea behind nonviolent resistance that was at the center of his piece of the civil rights movement was compassion. And was this idea that, look, if we're going to get past this history and this hateful present, we have to all change. You don't just

obliterate your enemy. They, your, your, your oppressor has to become something. They don't go away. So what are they going to become? Well, they're going to have to become your ally. They're going, they're going to, you know, when we talk about, I remember once talking to They're going, they're going to, you know, when we talk about, I remember once talking to someone who works in peace negotiations and about, you know, sort of the, this notion of you would end up negotiating with your enemy. It was like, well, who the hell else do you think you negotiate with in a peace negotiation? They were your enemy. And then that's the, like, we have to, if we're going to change as people, as a society, we have to figure out how to transcend it. So Martin Luther King and Bayard Rustin and Ella Baker, they talked about the wounds in their enemies too. They talked about, and this hate isn't serving any of us.

This division isn't serving any of us this division isn't serving any of us we have uh white people who feel pain in rural america and we have black people who feel pain in cities and in the south and this hate isn't serving anyone so and mart and Martin Luther King said, hate doesn't drive out hate. Only light can do that. And that's right. The answer to hate is never more hate. That's it. Yeah.

A couple of questions for you left. This one's called the three truths. Oh. At the end of every episode, I ask people, if this was your last day many years from now, you got to choose the day that it's your last day on earth. I would have eaten the baked goods. You would have eaten the baked goods that day. They all go down the belly.

But you're as old as you want to be, 100, 200. There's advanced technologies. Who knows? Whatever day, year, you get to choose, and it's finally the last day. But you have to at one point say, okay, it's done. And you've achieved everything you want. Every dream has come true. Every book you got to write.

Everything you wanted to say. I was on the School of Greatness podcast. There you go. Exactly. But it all came true. But for whatever reason, you had to take it all with you. Your whole message. You had to take it with you as you passed.

So there was nothing left for people to remember you by, except for a piece of paper and a pen. You got to write down three things you need to be true about your entire experience of life. The three lessons you would leave behind, and this is all people would have to be reminded or remembered by you. What would you say are your Just because hate feels justified doesn't mean it's justifiable. We all have the capacity to do great cruelty and great kindness. And I don't want to be ever the excuse for someone being their worst self. I want to be the inspiration for someone being their best self. I think that was three.

Was it three? Okay, cool. Take it. A run-on three. I like it. I want to acknowledge you for a moment, Sally, for your awareness, for seeing the good inside of yourself and also seeing the things that you maybe don't appreciate about what you've done in the past and using it for good to make an impact to the people that already believe in you and to the people that maybe you're working to pull over to your side

and your beliefs. I think it's really important for us to constantly be aware of what's working for us and what's not working for us. And so for you to have that awareness and do TED Talks and write books about it and really spread that message of love over hate and awareness, it's really powerful. So I acknowledge you for that. Make sure you guys get the book. It's called The Opposite of Hate, A Field Guide to Repairing Our Humanity. Make sure you check it out. It's out powerful, so I acknowledge you for that. Thank you. Make sure you guys get the book. It's called The Opposite of Hate, A Field Guide to Repairing Our Humanity.

Make sure you check it out. It's out right now. Where can we connect with you online? I am at sallycone, K-O-H-N, across all platforms except Snapchat because I still don't understand how it works. Or sallycone.com. Okay, cool.

And the last question is, what's your definition of greatness? I have to be honest. I mean, because I knew you were going to ask this. And my immediate answer when I was like, oh, he's going to ask. My first answer is, well, now I can't. I actually can't think of the word

without thinking about you. So there is that. I just do want to say that. That's good. I've done good branding. If we're doing appreciations, man, I love you. I love what you stand for. Thank you. And I love how you've recaptured and reframed the concept of greatness, right? Because I think greatness we've often thought of, and this goes to my answer, we've often thought of greatness as an individual kind of conquering an achievement. And you've turned greatness into about your impact on the world.

And I thank you. So that, to me, that is my definition of greatness greatness is do you do great things in this world for others? There you go, Sally. Thanks so much. Appreciate it. Appreciate you. Again, you were born to love, not to hate. We have been trained over the years to respond, to react, to come from a place of bullying, to hate others, to judge others.

But that's not who you are. That's not where you came from. That's what you've been trained to do and conditioned to do over time. And it's time we untrain ourselves. If you enjoyed this, make sure to share it with your friends. LewisHowes.com slash 631. You can take a screenshot tag me on instagram i'm at lewishouse let's start the conversation over there i'd love to hang out there the most over on twitter as well facebook all the places and again if you haven't left a review yet feel free to leave a review and share what you thought

about this episode over on the podcast app or on itunes we've got a powerful episode coming up next time i'm very excited about our next guest jay williams the legendary one of the most incredible college basketball players of all time who got in a motorcycle accident when he was in the nba went on oprah and talked about his experience and he's going to share some valuable things that he's never shared before. We dove in deep together, and you're going to love this episode. So make sure to stay tuned for the next episode coming very soon. And again, as Nelson Mandela said, people must learn to hate.

And if they can learn to hate, they can be taught to love. For love comes more naturally to the human heart than its opposite. I love you very much. And I'm so glad we're on this journey together. Every single episode is another opportunity to learn more, to discover who we truly are, and to reach our full potential. Thank you again for all that you do. And you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great. you