The School of Greatness - 66 Noah Kagan: Genius Marketer on Why He Got Fired by Facebook and Made Millions Anyways

Episode Date: May 8, 2014

Imagine being dumped from a position worth hundreds of millions of dollars... It's enough to crush a person's spirit. Noah Kagan was able to bounce back. In this interview he tells his amazing story of losing it all multiple times and building it all back again. Stay tuned to the end for an opportunity to participate in a give away. Visit www.lewishowes.com/66 for your chance to win, get the show notes and join the tribe.

This is episode number 66 with Noah Kagan. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Hey, hey, it's a beautiful day today, and thanks so much for tuning in, greats.

I really appreciate you for listening, you for subscribing, for sharing these episodes. It means the world to me. And we continue to grow. We just hit 1.5 million downloads last week. So congratulations to all of you for making that happen and for sharing all of these awesome interviews that I've got with some amazing guests. And speaking of amazing guests, I've got a special friend of mine on today. His name is Noah Kagan, and he is the founder of AppSumo.com. For anyone who's ever heard of AppSumo.com, it's a pretty cool website that gives special deals and offers for softwares and trainings and things like that.

He's a pretty brilliant guy. In this interview, we cover a lot of different things, some things he's never shared before on other interviews. He was one of the first 30 employees at Facebook, actually. So he's got a very interesting story about how he got hired onto Facebook and then how he got fired to Facebook and basically how he lost $100 million in the process because of this. We actually dive into a lot of interesting topics today. We cover a lot of things about his experiences for these major obstacles he's faced. He's a very introspective guy and very wise beyond his years. He likes to ask a lot of questions when you meet him in person.

He's constantly asking questions and just listening really well. And he cares deeply about people. For as nerdy as a guy that he seems to be on the outside, but a super amazing guy, lots of fun. And I think you're going to really enjoy this episode. But just so you guys know a little bit more about Noah, on his site, okdork.com, he talks about how he started two multimillion dollar businesses and grew close to a million person email list. And that's what he's really well known for is how to generate lots of leads and build a multimillion dollar businesses. So really interesting, smart guy, funny. I think you're going to like this episode. So let's go ahead and dive in with the one and only Noah Kagan.

Thanks everyone for tuning into the School of Greatness. And I've got a special friend on today. His name is Mr. Noah Kagan. What's up, Noah? What up, dog? I just want some coffee. Now, the last time we hung out, I believe we hung out in New York City was the last time we hung out i believe we hung out in new york city was the last time but the first time we met was a pretty special and fun occasion i don't know if you remember this occasion um kind of i remember the new york one because it was like five in the morning we met at a cafe

it was a bar the west village i think yeah with a group of interesting entrepreneurs fun group but the first time we met, Oh, I do remember this one. Yep. We, we met, I believe at a taco joint. And then you put, we'd rode on your scooter in Austin.

I don't even remember that. And I took a video of us. I should find this video and post. I remember that photo. Yeah. And you're a big dude. You're not a little guy. It was like,

it was so interesting because Noah's like five, what are you about? Five, seven, five, eight, five, nine. Oh nine oh come on we're like five ten a little credit anyone under six feet is a lot shorter to me uh but we meet up in in austin and i don't even know how we originally got connected but uh maybe we met before then at summit series or something i can't remember but we met there is when our first meetings and we had a good conversation. And then we just like rode around Austin on your scooter. And I thought I was gonna die in the backseat. But it was definitely a fun first bromance of the last few years. And since then, you've created some incredible things. And I want to get into that.

But I want to talk about your journey because you started out after college going into the corporate world for a minute and you, you, you pretty much hated it, right? Yeah, man. I, um, you know, I had an, I had two options. Um, you know, the, the real story, I don't actually think I've ever shared this on, on recorded because I had a job offer from Google. Um, and everyone, I went to Berkeley and everyone from Berkeley was, you know, doing the traditional route, you know, kind of being a sheep, as my brother likes to call them. And, you know, he was consulting, accounting, auditing, you know, working at, you know, General Electric or GM. And, you know, I just never knew that. I knew that wasn't kind of the path I was going to take. But I didn't know how the hell to get to that, you know, running my own

business or being involved in technology kind of play because everybody else was doing the more traditional route uh so what ended up happening though was i got a job offer from google and that was like pre-ipo 2003 wow and uh and so i honestly man i was just like oh my god i fucking made it i'm gonna be so rich i'm gonna be at the coolest company i'm gonna have free lunches all day. I'm going to be a fatty. And, you know, like a week before I was supposed to go there, not a week before, maybe like a month before I was supposed to start, they took back the job offer. Wow. How do they take something back? I don't know.

It was a verbal thing where like, hey, you got the job. We're going to send you the letter. Everything's good. And then a week or two later, it was like, actually, yeah, you're not going to be a good fit for this. And I wasn't really... I was like, what happened there? I thought everything did well in the interviews. It was for their associate product marketing manager,

which I have no idea what you even do for that role. But I had that... Anyway, so with that job offer taken back, it's kind of these things where sometimes I think when we get challenged, it's like, all right, that's a good experience. So it's like, all right, well, what what can i learn from this how do i control my own destiny and i ended up working at intel because i had a job over from intel and uh google intel in uh wells fargo so i'm kind of like back at my mom's house working at uh at intel just

living the the dilbert lifestyle were you in san jose or where were you at this time yeah i was in their main headquarters in santa clara and you know anyone who you know San Jose or where were you at this time? Yeah, I was in their main headquarters in Santa Clara. And you know, anyone who, you know, I think that hires you and gives you money and helps pay for your living, like you do appreciate them. Uh, but I just knew, you know, it's like once you kind of experienced that and sometimes we have to experience things to really understand like, Holy shit, this really sucks. Like I always, uh, when I was interviewing at Intel, uh, there's this guy, Terry, he asked me, he's like, hey man, so where do you see yourself in five years? And, you know, my answer was, I said, well, not at Intel.

And he just, he busts up laughing because he's like, yeah, me neither. You know, and it was kind of a, it was kind of like, oh shit. All right. Yeah, this is a, I like you, but it's interesting that that's the kind of culture of people that were at the company. And so, yeah, I ended up just kind of sweating away and sleeping in my cubicle for the next year and a half. So where did you see yourself in five years?

I don't actually look that far ahead. I know some people have. There's like my friend Andrew Chen. If your readers want to check out his blog, it's andrewchen.co. It's really great stuff on viral marketing. He is like five, ten years out there. If your readers don't want to check out his blog, it's andrewchin.co. It's really great stuff on viral marketing. He is like five, ten years out there. I think where I've done well is I look like six months to 12 months ahead.

Yeah, I'm the same way. I was doing Intel, and one tip that I would always give people, and I always encourage people, is that if someone else is paying your bill, it's nice. There's some really great benefits. You don't have to worry about the business as much. But take advantage of that. So have them basically be your investors for anything you want to start.

Like a friend of mine is interested in starting a co-cooking class. I was like, well, why don't you have your company? They're paying your day job, so at night you can start teaching cooking classes. Right, exactly. And then eventually open up a studio or anything like that. And kind of see if you like it. Do it for six months, see if there's potential, see if you can make some money and if not, then maybe you do something else or you stick with the job. Exactly. I mean, I'm not a risk taker. I'm not someone who's going to jump off and hopefully that thing will work out. What I encourage people to do, let's say you want to start a website,

a consulting, a restaurant, anything like that. Let's say a restaurant, for example. Have people over for dinner. That's what we did last year for a friend of mine who was starting a restaurant, anything like that. Let's say a restaurant, for example. Have people over for dinner. That's what we did last year for a friend of mine who was starting a restaurant. We would do these pop-up dinners at different people's houses and sell tickets through Eventbrite. And through that, we were like, oh, shit. People want this kind of restaurant. So now she's actually opening a taco store in San Antonio.

And you can do that while other people are paying for it. And what I encourage people to do is, how do you not spend a lot of money and time? We'll get into the whole starting business thing. But at Intel, in six to 12 months, coming back to the original point, I just basically was like, well shit, I'm going to start my own business. Once I get my money for my medical insurance, because they pay you every year, I was like, well I'm going to quit, get eye surgery, LASIK, get LASIK, and then I'll go start my own business. I didn't really have

as much of a plan. I just knew it was going to be my own thing. The other thing that I was doing, man, and this is, I'm going to be repetitive, but at Intel, I kept starting my own businesses at night. So at night, and I think, I don't know if it's an age thing where I was a lot hungrier when I was younger. Yeah. Or I just really wanted to have, you know, I think I knew more of like, I just want to be working. And I think there's something there when you know what you want.

And I knew I didn't want to be working at Intel. I knew that. And I think it's a lot easier when you know what you want to get it. So when did you decide that you were quitting? So in October 2005, I was like, all right, by the end of this year, it's over. And I'm going to start, you know, if my businesses are going forward, good. If not, then I'm just going to quit anyways. And so, yeah, at that point, I basically was like, all right, I made that mental decision that that was going to happen.

And one thing I'll do, I've actually never shared this, but this is something I did. I don't know where the hell I got it from, but it's one of the things that's actually been insanely helpful for the past 10 years. I got it from. But it's one of the things that's actually been insanely helpful for the past 10 years. I took a piece of paper and I wrote 30, 60, 90, one year, three year, 10 year. And I just listed five things in each time period. So 30 days, 60 days, 90 days, one year, five year, 10 year that I wanted. Wow. I like that. Yeah, I've never shared that. and it worked out really well i'll tell you like one of the things not all i haven't gotten all of it but at least i knew what that kind of future looked like so i said in tears i want to be a millionaire i want to have a house i want to have a wife and kids um i think i wanted i think that was definitely like the big things i wanted

did i you know and i did become a millionaire i'm not married. I don't have the kids yet. I do. That you know of. Yeah. Don't say that. Don't say that. I've recorded. Make sure you edit that part out.

No, I mean, if I had kids, I'm looking forward to that one day. It's just finding the right person. But yeah, so it was basically, and that really helped me get a picture of, it's not necessarily something I, actually, I did look at it every day. I taped it to my mirror. So as I walked by my mirror every morning, I was like, oh's not necessarily something I, actually, I did look at it every day. I taped it to my mirror. So as I walked by my mirror every morning, I was like, oh, those are things I keep wanting, keep seeing. I think women do this really well.

They call them vision boards. Yeah. That's interesting you say this because I haven't told too many people about this either. But when I was in high school and college, I would put up my goals that I would want to achieve for that year and frame it on a little note card with the date that I was going to achieve it by kind of like as a certificate of achievement that I'd already achieved it. And I was just waiting for the date to happen. And almost every time on or around that date, I would get what I want. And it was always like big goals that I

didn't think I could achieve at that time, like six or 12 months before, but it would always come around and either happen or really close to it. There's something in that. Totally. So I would say, I do that on a weekly basis. And I think sometimes it's too micro at that point. So you have to really step back. And we have this product, SumoMe.com, which is a free tool for marketing for any website for people to grow their website.

And we have this big goal of a billion people this year to see it. So let's say your site has 100,000 visitors. That's 100,000 people to add to Zoom. So it's a lot of people that we're trying to reach. Right. And I think right now we're at about 16 or 17 million. That's pretty good. You just launched it. We launched about two months ago. But here's the challenge, man. We're at 16, so that's like 1% towards a billion.

Right. One of the guys on the team was like, man, we're doing really shitty. And it's kind of discouraging because you're like, man, I want to get married. I want a million dollars. I want to quit my job. And it just seems so much further off. And so what we were doing, we actually talked about at lunch today as a team, is I think two things you have to really do. You have to face it. So I know that days when we don't make a good profit, like at AppSumo.com,

our free newsletter, when we're not making a profit, I actually go and look at it. Or the days where I know I ate a lot of shitty food, Louis, I'll go and stand on my scale. Or yesterday, I was a little hungover. My buddy was like, you want ibuprofen? I was like, nope, I don't want that ibuprofen. I want to experience what is going on now and then what can I do about that. I don't think enough people actually face things that are sucky and then think, all right, well, what do we need to do?

As a team today, we said, all right, well, one thing is we need to have a daily goal. Instead of this one billion thing, how do we break it down so on a daily, weekly basis, we can understand, are we actually on the right destination? Are we on the right path? And knowing that, it's like, all right, well, we're only about 10,000 or 50,000 or 100,000 people a day away from our goal. And it makes it much more attainable. It's like, all right, well, what do we need to do this week to get 50,000 more people a day? And so I think the takeaway for your listeners is like, all right, take a reasonable goal within a year that you really want to accomplish, break it into a day or a week or monthly target, and then give yourself limited time periods for making change.

And what I mean by that is, let's say we're doing, you know, I think about 200,000 people a day on Sumo Me. Instead of saying, how do we get to a million people next month? It's like, all right, well, how do we double it in a week? And when you use that kind of framework for certain decisions, it really helps you say, all right, well, shit, like let's say for your downloads, you're like, well, I'm getting 30,000 downloads on my podcast this week. If I had to double it by next Friday, what would I do? And what I would say most people will realize is that you'll remove a lot of things you would you would be doing right and you'll focus on your ones you're like well i actually think these are really going to be my biggest wins and it just really helps you prioritize your decisions interesting i like that i feel like you've been doing a lot of work on yourself lately

it's been you know it's one of these things i think never ends it just never ends i think one thing i'm like wondering, I'm like, man, am I, is it as I'm getting older, I'm getting more wussy and I'm not as hungry. Where younger, I think, and I think it's kind of like efficiency versus effectiveness where I think when I was younger, I was just like working my ass off, just whatever it was, I would just like a bulldog, just go attack. And now I'm trying to be just a little more strategic and say, instead of just spending all the hours, how do I spend less hours but they're more productive and more effective? In 2012, it was a really self-reflective year where most of the years sucked. The year sucked?

Most of the whole year sucked. One of the best years money-wise for the business for AppSumo, but it was just as a personal level. One of the best years money-wise for the business for AppSumo, but it was just as a personal level. And so I spent the whole year and the first quarter of 2013 working on myself. Wow. Yeah, I mean, it was a – I can share some of the stuff I did if you think it would be interesting. Yeah, what did you do? Also, I mean, I just felt bad about myself personally.

I didn't really have – certain relationships weren't good. My work, as we talked about, I was up to 18 people at AppSumo. Me and my partner Chad were running a good business that a lot of people, I'd get emails like, you're killing it. You're crushing it. You guys look like you're doing so well on Alexa. I think what people have to really keep evaluating is taking a minute, either therapy or friend or writing, and really keep asking themselves in those three categories, which is yourself, your relationships, and your work, you know, what do you really want out of those three, right? Kind of like a triangle of your life.

And with myself, I wasn't really healthy. I kind of dressed like shit. I wasn't exercising or eating well. In the relationships, I was dating a girl who was kind of toxic uh just kind of negative i was always just like feeling insecure about myself because she was really hot and i was like oh well i'm not worthy of her like i can't believe she'll have sex with me right um and then professionally it was just you know we're running this big business you know eating people doing i think a little over five million bucks and bootstrapped all that stuff. I guess I kind of just like, I don't really like the way the business is running.

I don't like what AppSumo, we send out, for the people who don't know, we send out free tools. It's a free newsletter and we send out tools for entrepreneurs. We get good prices on tools and content. We've actually promoted some of Louis' products. I saw one of the products we were promoting and I'm like, holy shit, that sucks. It was this horrible thing about how to start a mobile app. I realized that, wow, that's basically saying that I'm crap.

Even our friend Rameed was joking. We were walking down the street in New York one day and he's like, hey Noah, your business, he said it in passing but it really stuck with me, he's like, your business reminds me of Ross, you know, Ross clothing store. Right. And I was like, fuck you, man. Like they're only good for like getting coffee makers and, uh, random kitchen supplies. And so, uh, so I kind of just started breaking down and there wasn't, you know, it's funny. There wasn't one epiphany of this is the magical thing that really changed it all for me. Um. It was just a series of different things to figure out what makes my life better. So some of the higher level things that I

can tell you and actionable things is one of them was I did a thing with my buddy Adam from mybodytutor.com. I did a thing called GEBI where every morning I would email my GEBI. And GEBI basically stands for gratitude, exercise, breakfast, and you. Where every morning I'd say, well, what am I grateful for? And the whole point of all this is that we came up with these four because we realized, like, all right, this is helping me understand what a good day will look like. And then how do I engineer that good day? So how do I create a day of, like, these are the things that I'll do to make today awesome. So gratitude was like, all right, well, what am I happy for this morning?

And one of my favorite moments was, like, I was happy for hot water. It's like such a stupid thing, man. But I was just like, man, this water feels really good. I'm really grateful that they have water heaters. You know, and it's one of those things where, yeah, even you, you're smiling. I put a little smile on my face. And honestly, I was, and here's the thing, like now I'm happier and I'm in a better place, position. But I was still like, and I would write this and I'd be like, Adam, this is stupid. But it was just like, I kept doing it and kept doing it. And a lot of times it's like, you just got to keep going forward, right? Like make your patience and persistence your competitive advantage. know if you've ever called me and left a message, but on my voicemail, I, my request is you can't leave me a message until you say what you're grateful for, for the day. And it just sets people up in a different mood and a different attitude, like moving forward in their day of a lot of chaos happening and all this noise when really it's good to be present and think about

what we're most grateful for in that moment. And there was a some research study online, I'm going to butcher the stats. But basically, they did a test where they had people that they were coming into like some lab, they didn't know what they were doing. And they asked them to write a letter to the person that they love the most and tell them how grateful in this letter, write down all the things that they're grateful about them. And then after the end of them writing it, they had them call them on like film and read this letter to them. And they said that like the amount of happiness level that goes up when you express your gratitude

for other people as well is like one of the highest forms of creating happiness, like the biggest level of happiness or something by expressing your gratitude towards people. So, uh, there's definitely something in that. And it's cool to hear that you've been doing that on a daily basis because I can see why it's been working for you. Well, yeah, it was that, um, you know, it's funny cause gratitude sometimes seems like, and it's hard when things aren't, you're like, Hey, I don't have the money. the money and it's you know a lot of it is like i was actually just at a penthouse um i was at this really rich guy's penthouse in austin and you know i know he did some stuff that i would actually i would never do and i think it's questionable to make that money and it kind of really made me reflect on it's like all right you want all this money or you want all these things materially or

whatever it is what happens when you finally get there right like what happens when you have all the money to live and travel and deal with that stuff? You're still going to probably be unhappy with yourself. I can't say I'm perfect or I can really tell people I don't know about it. I'm just telling you I'm still exploring and trying to go through that where I want every day to be great regardless of the money and material things I have. We did Ghebby which was gratitude exercise. So like, what's one thing to get your blood pumping? And I know you work out a fair amount. We were talking about this earlier and I've never felt worse. I've never felt, I never felt worse leaving a gym.

I've never felt worse after a run. I felt sucky, right? I'm like tired, obviously. Um, but there's, there's so many days, man, we're like, and I think if people see you as an entrepreneur myself, uh, running businesses and be like, man, every day must be awesome. And they just swim in money and have sexually beautiful women. But I'll tell you, there's days where, like today I told you earlier, it's kind of a lower day. There's not many fireworks going off and maybe a little too much of a weekend. But I'm actually going to, after this podcast, I'm going to go hit the gym. So even for someone who's not a gym rat or doesn't do kickboxing or handball, it's like, just go for a walk or do five pushups. And I know a lot of

people listening are like, okay, fine. We'll keep the podcast on and stand up, sit down, do that five times. We'll wait. It's true. Yeah. And the other two things were breakfast because I love my breakfasts, man. It's like, I like look forward to sleep sometime just so I can eat breakfast. I just think it's super to sleep sometimes just so I can eat breakfast. I just think it's super exciting. One of my favorite books of all time is Paradox of Choice. There's only too many options for my breakfasts, man.

I basically have five or ten things. I just look forward to them so much. And then you. This is something that I think anyone can do, which is like, all right, what is one thing that I'm going to do for myself today? Right. So it could be anything, right? It's like, I want to watch a movie. I want to read a book. I want to do drugs. Not that we want to encourage drugs. I'm going to go call one friend, right? Whatever that is. Right. So like, what is mine today? I think I'm going out. I'm going to go to the gym.

Oh, I'm baking some food that I was really excited to bake. I wanted to bake these sweet potato chips with cinnamon. So I cut them up and I put them in the oven. And when I'm at the gym, the oven's going to turn on. So I'm looking forward to that. It makes me excited to come home. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting you're talking about all these things because a lot of my friends that I've been hanging out with a lot lately, they have been doing everything for everyone else. about all these things because a lot of my friends that I've been hanging out with a lot lately,

they have been doing everything for everyone else. And it's almost like, what are you doing for yourself? Some people, I'm like, when's the last time you had a massage? They're like, I can't even tell you, maybe a year ago. And they're like so worn out. They're so beat up, so emotionally, they lost all their energy. And I'm like, go do something for yourself. And I think with that little system you have, I think it's a great little system, just doing even one thing for yourself for 10, 20, 30 minutes a day, even just meditating for 20 minutes

is something you can do for yourself to really get grounded and just show yourself how much you love yourself and how grateful you are for what you've been up to. And I think that's great you're doing that. Yeah, I mean, one thing that, one thing that I would even encourage people to do is how can you make it automatic, right? And so the way I do that is I put in once a week a massage.

It's funny you say massage. And not every week do I go do it. I'm not going to fake it. Not every week it happens, but almost every other week I'm going and getting a massage, and I have it on my calendar on repeat so that it just makes it easier on my brain. I'm like, oh, cool. I have something to look forward to. Like, oh, this Saturday I get a massage. Every Friday morning, me and my good buddy Anton from

AppSumo, we bike and we go get breakfast tacos. And it's just like our Friday routine that I know I'm going to look forward to. I'm knowing to have fun. So it's like during your weeks and your day, like how do you create these activities that you know are going to be happy? Like this week, actually, this is the first time I've talked about it on a podcast. We're doing it at AppSumo. Last week, I'm working inside at AppSumo, man. Honestly, it was a Monday. It was 75 degrees out in

Austin, and I wanted to be playing disc golf. I love disc golf. Dude, it's fun. It's so fun. I want to go scootering to disc golf. I was actually thinking in my head, I've got to do more scooter meetings. I i wanted to go disc golf and i'm like oh i'm fucking inside sitting on this laptop banging away and the whole point of me creating my business was so i could

have the lifestyle i wanted and i wanted that balance where i can work when i want to work and i can you know play what i want to play uh at my own times and something you know and and it just made me a little depressed and so i talked the team and I said, hey guys, let's do reverse work this week. I've never seen anyone else do this and I'm curious how it's going to work out for us. Basically, you work at night and play during the day. We're trying that out for five days and no one on the team is required to do it. It's like, hey guys, when it's really nice out right now go the hell outside go enjoy the sun like you and i'm trying to i don't want to force them not to work i just said please don't be in the office if you can like we checked in today but then every other day this week i'm not

going to go to the office if i can and i'm going to go outside disc golf i'm gonna probably do a little rock climbing we're doing a rock climbing meetup wednesday where we're bringing wi-fi to the rock climbing gym and work out we're gonna work out out and then rock climb and then do a little work. And so just figuring out, all right, well, what's the right environment that I'll be productive and really enjoying my life? So that's kind of one of the little things that we're setting up for this week. And I guess ultimately, as you're talking about gratitude, Lewis, and as you're interviewing all these people about greatness, there's no right, like, this is the way of life, right?

Noah Kagan has his schedule this way. I need to copy it. all these people about greatness and there's no right like this is the way of life right noah kagan has his schedule this way i need to copy it or whoever else you're interviewing as well as yourself but it's testing things like i tried meditation out for 41 days and after 41 days i was like oh man i don't i used i was like i didn't want to get out of bed because i had to do this meditation right and like the whole point of the meditation is to make the day better and right if i keep doing it and you know i didn't just do it for a day and give up. I tried it and I committed to at least 30 days and, and beyond. And then after that point, I was just like, it's not serving me. Yeah. And so I just encourage people that, you know, try out something new for a little bit, see how it serves you, if it's better or worse, and then, you know, continue it or remove it. I just started doing this meditation a week ago. I've been doing it every day for the last seven days now.

And for me, it's only 12 minutes long. And so I listen to it right when I wake up and then right when I'm going to bed. It actually puts me to sleep. And for me, I feel like it just gives me calm and peace. And it's one that I did almost 10 years ago, or I guess 12 years ago now when I was in college. And I remember I had like the best three months of my college career know career or whatever in sports and school and everything when i was using listening to this and i was like why haven't i done this since so it's been fun for me to pick it back up but yeah definitely you know test whatever works for you um you know what's funny man oh pardon me go ahead no dude it's so interesting because we have we have this course

monthly1k.com. And it's really interesting what you just said. You're like, hey, back in college, this used to work for me. And I've been working with people over the past year. And what's really fascinating to me, man, is that people do habits and things that got them successful. And then they stop doing those. And then they wonder. And actually, my buddy Adam from My Body Tour,

I was talking about earlier, he's the one who kind of reminds me of that. He's like, dude, you've been working out and doing these things to get to this point. That's what got you to the point. You kind of have to go back. A lot of people start businesses doing, we always used to do these meetups

and that's how we got our customers. And then you ask them, they're like, yeah, business as well. I'm like, well, have you done any meetups lately? Oh no, we haven't. And this is what I think about for myself. If you're trying well, have you done any meetups lately? Oh no, we haven't. And so I, and this is what I think about for myself. You know, if you're trying to start a business for any of your listeners or when I'm starting my businesses, it's that, all right, what have I done in the past that people have responded to and I've really enjoyed? Right. Right. Cause a lot of,

a lot of people, Oh, I don't have any ideas, but it's like in that, in, you know, doing meditation, whatever it is, look back on things that people have responded well to or just have made you happy in the past and figure out, all right, how can I recreate those moments now? Sure, yeah. I think it's interesting. We talked about this a little bit before where, especially in my circles that I'm in with entrepreneurs, successful entrepreneurs,

some of them, they generate all this wealth and success from being good at one thing and then they start to veer off and do all these other things and we kind of talked about this with you know app subun and stuff like that but you know it's like stick with what works sometimes and you know not trying to complicate things and try a little bit of everything afterwards but really stick with what works and uh i'm going back to like the basics with a lot of stuff in my business and just going to what i know works and outsourcing everything else. What did you change something that you had to go back to that? I mean, you know, I used to sell this thousand dollar course

that just like people loved and it was just selling like crazy and we're getting a lot of value. People were getting a lot of value from it. They were getting huge results. And then I was just like, Oh, let's try selling these other courses and this thing and this thing. And just wanted to do it all. Cause I thought that's what the next step was supposed to be or something. And, uh, it worked, but it, it definitely stressed me out and I kind of got burnt out. And so now I'm just kind of going back to the basics and just, how did you recognize you wanted to go back to the basics? Like what happened what what was that like I think for me I realized like things weren't serving me it wasn't working for me and I really took an evaluation in my in my life and what I wanted as well and I constantly I constantly check in with myself like when I'm feeling if I'm feeling

up or down or whatever so I'm constantly checking in and and then I evaluate what is it that's not working for me or what's not serving me is Is it a relationship? Is it something that I haven't cleared in a relationship that I need to clear with someone? Or is it my business that I'm working too much or less or is my body? So I'm just constantly checking in and evaluating what's working, what's not working and just kind of making a decision from there. You know, it's really interesting, Lou. So do you, that's actually, I think I'm actually kind of curious for myself.

Do you do this on a monthly basis or is that something you would encourage people to be like, yo, every month, like add it. So on the first of every month in my calendar, I have a thing that says, do your personal finances. And because it's on the first of every month, when I get that notification, I'm like, all right. And I open my Google spreadsheet

and I update my finances. Do you have anything like that where you remind yourself? Yeah, I mean, just my team. I don't, I'm not as, you're like the most data organized analytical guy. It seems like there is. Um, so I, I don't, that's not how it works, works for me, but I, it's more like a based on a feeling, like how am I feeling at every moment? And then I'll just check in. I'm usually having a conversation with someone and I'm just like, oh, this is like been kind of bugging me out or stressing me. And then that's when I started talking about something that's not working for me to other people. Then I'm just like, wait a minute,

why am I doing it still? Why don't I shift out of it? Even if it's making me a lot of money, I'll still shift out of it and be like, okay, that's not worth it for me if it's going to bring me down. Dude, I feel that. One thing I'm curious your take on as well is that a lot of the people we had a meetup for our customers on Friday. And one thing that kind of shocked me is that there are a lot of people that are, you know, you're, you're from the Midwest, right? You grew up in Ohio and Ohio. So there's people in Ohio and Kansas, Missouri States. I probably can't even spell the full name. And, um, what I wonder though, is like, how do you surround yourself with people? Cause you said you check in with your team and like i check in like with and this is one of the things that

helped me feel better from last year is that i removed a lot of people yeah and then i added people i'm like man i always feel good when i hang out with you you always make me feel good about myself always and so i'm wondering is that um you know how do people go about that and how did you go about surrounding yourself with you know people and teammates that did that well i mean i think it's uh again constantly evaluating like the relationships that are working for you and that aren't working for you and that means people that you hire people that are in your in your life it could be family members it could be friends i'm in a lot of different masterminds and i have different coaches that i hire or mentors that work with me and i'm constantly, you know,

just surrounding myself with people that inspire me. You're one of them. And whenever we get a chance to talk, it's always inspiring for me. Um, but sometimes there's like friends I've had for a while that it just feels like every time I hang out with them, they wear me down. And so I really get to evaluate those. And if people aren't, you know, shifting and I think uplifting you, if they're taking energy from you, then you don't want to, I don't know. It's not something that's not healthy for you. So either have a conversation with that person and say, listen, I really love our friendship and I want it to continue to grow. But right now you've just been so negative and you haven't been able to get out of it over a year. It's time to shift. Otherwise I want to spend less time with you because I just feel like you're bringing me down

every time we hang out. So I think it's just, again, evaluating how I'm feeling after each interaction. And it's more like an intuitive thing. It's not like I sit there and like, how do I feel after I just talked to this person? So maybe that's a new business for someone. It's like note cards, like my emotions after meeting you. Or like maybe you give them out like, hey, did you like me? Here's a card. You know, it's funny, like even talking to you now, like I was kind of mopey most of the day.

Like I've been kind of just bleh. And just talking to you now about like things that you're working on, I'm interested in and thinking about is just like making me feel better. And you like a few things that I can share with your listeners, because like I think if you're in Ohio or you're in these places, it is harder to meet people that are hustling and not just doing the same old jobs and kind of complaining about all this stuff. So what I've done for myself, here's just a few things that have really helped me. When I first came in, this is what I encourage your people to do, become a hub for people that you want to meet. And so what that means is when I came to Austin, I created a Facebook group called Austin Startups.

I went to the cheapest bar in town and I found out their happy hour was a buck a beer. And I told everyone I knew to invite everyone they know and I'll pay for all the drinks for the next two hours and invite everyone. And I think about 100 people ended up coming out. I invited them all to the Austin Startups Facebook group. And that's actually how three, four years later, it's like 3,000 or 4,000 people now. It's like the hub of Austin. You can start on a smaller basis. Become a hub with either events. You can become a hub with interviewing people. If you're in a local place, go meet the owners of restaurants you love eating at. My favorite place in Austin is Taco Deli. I'm kind of annoying, but I email and text the owner, I'm like, yo, can

I take you out for lunch? Hey, can I buy lunch from your place for an event I'm doing? Or interview them. So either set up meetings with them to bring them together with other people they'll want to meet, or interview them because of course those people want to get the word out about themselves. Three, three other ways that I would, that I've used is referrals. So like good people generally don't hang out with shitty people. Right. So if you have any of your friends that are really good or people that are

doing businesses that are good and you like, ask them, man, like who do you go to for advice? And I did that with my buddy Lloyd from own local. And, uh, he put me in touch with the guy who started one 800 contacts.

Uh, he put me in touch with a guy who sold a-800-CONTACTS. He put me in touch with the guy who sold a design agency. It's like good people generally know other good people. That's a good way to find others. You know what I like about you, Noah, is that I think everyone listening can get something from is that you're extremely successful. We haven't even gotten to that you worked at. You were one of the first 30 employees at Facebook. There's a whole interesting story there. You've had this amazing success with appsumo.com

and you know millions and millions and every you know everyone etc etc the thing that i think a lot of people can learn from you is that no matter how successful you are and how much you know you ask a lot of questions from everyone you meet and you're, you're constantly open to, to learning from people. It doesn't matter if they, you know, are looking for a job, if they're a wannabe entrepreneur, if they're a billionaire, if they don't have any money, I feel like you're so open to learning and not necessarily like, okay, I'm going to listen to, I'm going to do everything that this person says. Like every answer they give me, uh, is, is truth, but that you're just like receptive to like hearing what everyone has to say. And I think that's a great

quality that you have. Thanks man. And I don't know if that's something that you naturally do or that you, you do naturally or that you're intentionally like, I'm going to ask a lot of questions, but I, I, I, I recognize it because it's something you always do with me. I know a friend that I introduced you to was like, man, he asks a lot of great questions. And I was like, yeah, he does. And I know you do that with everyone. Whenever we're out, you're always asking everyone else questions

and learning and listening. And why do you do that? You know, it's funny. It's something like the past year, a lot more people have said that to me. And it's something I've really noticed. I guess a few different things. So one, my mom is a Jewish mother. And basically, like my life has been an interrogation.

And she's an amazing mother. But it's funny when someone said this to me a little bit ago not too long ago and they're like yeah you asked a lot of questions and i was like where the hell did that come from and uh and i realized it's because like when i came home after school my mom was great she's like what'd you do at school what'd you do in that test and like she would write things down like you had a test three weeks ago how'd that go i was like man all right if i call her now like she would ask probably a good three to four hours of questions. Wow.

And, uh, but so that's number one. Number two is that like, and you know, it was actually funny. We talked about feedback with friends and I can mention a quick story about that afterwards, but, uh, you learn, it's just like, I already know my own stories, right? I already know all the things I've already done. It's not something like something new comes out of me telling it. Uh, but I don't know anything about yours. Right. And so I guess in general, I try to stay humble and not too arrogant because you don't

know where you're going to learn things from right as much as sometimes i i do i am i do get arrogant i do get cocky and i try to get humbled at times like not intentionally but it does happen and when it happens it's like what can i learn from that and so you're going to grow so much and it's so much more frankly to me interesting, interesting hearing other people's stories. Yeah. I mean, some of the books I'll recommend to you is like, I mean, obviously a lot of people know Dale Carnegie, How to Win Friends. Actually I used that book this weekend. Not used it, but one of the things I learned from it was like, don't correct people if

they say something wrong if it doesn't really matter. Right. Right. And so this guy spelled something wrong. And it's like, most people would be like, oh, you're stupid. That's wrong. And I was like, not stupid. They're like,, you're stupid. That's wrong. And I was like, not stupid. They're like, hey, here's how to spell it. But I was like, that doesn't matter.

And so I actually told him that. Hey, and he's like, oh, yeah, that's a pretty interesting point. Another good book, Never Eat Alone. I'm guessing you probably read that by Keith Ferrazzi. And I met a guy who worked for Keith Ferrazzi. And he said this thing to me. And he said it while we were just walking around New York. I guess walking around New York is like the new therapy. And, uh, he just said,

you know, like all feedback and hearing from others is good. It's always great. It's a gift. It's a gift to get feedback. It's a gift to be, you know, to me listening, whether what you want to do with it then is up to your intelligence and what you want to do. Yeah. And that was like, that's really profound. And that's kind of stuck with me um so those kind of books have really brought me to like i grow a lot more and i'm i find myself more interested and engaged when um you know other people are sharing their stories now you talked about you know humility and and also how younger you were just like really hustling do you feel like you had something to prove when you're younger um and kind of why you're hustling and do you feel like

you don't have as much to prove now? Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's funny. I think a lot of people that might be quote unquote successful externally, um, you have to define what your success is internally. And I think, you know, I got fired from Facebook and I can share maybe some stories, um, about that. And, uh, yeah, I definitely put a big chip on my shoulder and it's still there where, you know, I'm really resentful. Um, I've gotten over it. I've gone and it's still there where I'm really resentful. I've gotten over it. I've gone to therapy.

I went to like a life coach and I've worked on myself where, all right, well, how can I create the lifestyle that I really want right now? And I think it's like, fuck, well, I'm pretty happy with how my lifestyle is, man. Like I've been able to create the health I want. I have a business that I get to work with people I love, doing a service that I love to do. And sometimes that actually becomes challenging because you're like, well, now you have everything you want. What do you do then? Exactly. And just to take a step back, the whole Facebook thing, you would have made like $100 million or something, right, with the IPO based on your stock options? Yeah it doesn't, I owned 0.1% of the company with the amount of shares when I got the job. Right.

So I think companies worth like 150 billion now. So 0.1% of that is 150 million. Right. So I could see how you would need therapy on that. Well, I need to get money to pay for therapy first, man. But yeah, it was, it's been hard. to paper therapy first man uh but yeah it was uh it's been hard and you know i'm actually putting together a book of um my adventure through losing it's not i guess you could say losing but 150 million dollars it's basically it's basically like you had you won you had a lottery ticket

for 150 million dollars in your hands and then someone ripped it out of your hands and you couldn't get it back yeah yeah i, those kind of companies like Facebook and Google, those companies literally happen once every decade. Yeah. So to be able to be a part of those was an amazing experience to be a part of Facebook. But it was also very painful to, you know, basically you found the love of your life. And then she's like, hey, you know what? Actually, you're not really good enough for me.

I'm moving on. Oh, that is very painful. Yeah. Even saying it to you now. That sounds horrible. I'm moving on. Oh, that is very painful. Yeah, even saying it to you now. That sounds horrible. I know, right? Oh, my gosh. And I don't really have like a positive like spin.

But I think what I went through, and I'll share maybe some of the stories. You know, like the first day I walk into the office, you know, I meet Zuck. And he's like, hey, you know that boss that hired you? Yeah, I just fired him today. And he's like, hey, you know, the boss that hired you. Yeah, I just fired him today. And he's like, don't ever try to sell my company. Welcome to Facebook. I was like, anything else I shouldn't do? You know, I got a laptop in a corner of a desk and, you know, I never worked in a formal.

You know, I never wasn't formal, but I never worked at a startup. I never was formally trained on how to build websites. I just kind of always made stuff on the side. Right. And, um, it was interesting cause I think at times when we're around smarter people, like at Facebook, I was around mostly Harvard and Stanford people, you know, and I'm a Berkeley kid, which I think, you know, it says like, all right, maybe I'm, um, I don't feel as good as them. And I felt a little challenge. I felt self-conscious a lot of the time where we'd be in meetings and these guys are really, really smart.

And it's one of these things in retrospect, though. It's like, man, I grew a lot and I learned so much just being around them. At that time, it was tough. We'd be in a meeting and I would suggest, oh, why don't the website do this? And then they would show me five ways why that doesn't make sense for this button to be that color or for the button to be in that location wow and that that's really humbling yeah or you know i'd spend i remember one of the stories was it was a chris putnam he's uh he was like a 19 year old kid he actually hacked facebook he was from georgia like college i don't even know if he went to college. But he hacked Facebook so you could put colors on your profile page.

And he ended up getting a job there at Facebook because he hacked it. So it was kind of an interesting way, a creative way of getting a job. So Chris worked on a product for two weeks or three weeks. And finally, when you put anything on Facebook back then, Zuck has to go and review it. And I really respect that. Whenever I meet founders or people starting businesses who are like, oh, I need a marketer to finally get people to hear about it,

or I need a product person to finally figure out what to build, I'm always like, that's pretty essential. Like, if you don't know what you're really building, and if you don't know how it really looks, you probably shouldn't be doing it. And if you don't really know how you should, you're gonna get one or two customers, like, you probably need to focus on that first

before doing anything else. And Zuck was really great about that in terms of, you know, I know what I want this to look like. I'm in charge and anything that's going to happen with the core of it goes through me. And, you know, Chris finally launched a feature. I forget which one exactly, three weeks. And Zuck comes up to the screen.

We're all kind of like standing around. This is like the, it's like God looking at his first child and, uh, he looks at the screen and he's like, this is shit. And he takes his water, throws it at the screen. It's like, redo it and walks away. It's like, you know, and we're all young. We're all like 24, 25 year olds. And so it's kind of like a temper tantrum, man. And, uh, you know, I'll tell you, it was definitely, it's one of these things where tough love is hard because at that moment, you know, Chris felt like shit. We're all like, holy fuck, that sucks.

You know, you spend three weeks building something and you get told it's crap. Wow. But what it really does is raise the bar and it sets that level of expectations. And you hear stories and cliches like, oh, well, if you leave early, everyone else will think it's okay to leave early. But when you actually set the example and you set,

you know, one of my favorite books is The Score Will Take Care of Itself by Bill Walsh. And he does the same thing. Like in the locker room of the 49ers, he said, hey, your locker is always clean. I don't want to see any mess ever. And you take that attention to detail there, you're going to take that attention to detail on the field. Yeah. How you do anything is how you do everything. And it's one of those things you probably have to experience it to really understand it. And so him kind of being such a detail-oriented,

he had very specific things that he wanted. I think him having that really set the bar for all of us to push even harder and really impress him and really raise our own level of work. Yeah. It's because you made a little mistake that you thought, you know, you didn't know it was going to be bad or wasn't it like you leaked something like a day early or something like that?

There's a few things that happen, man. And so, yeah, I have a, if they go to okdork.com, it's my free website. It's where I talk about marketing. They sign up for the newsletter. When the my free website where I talk about marketing. If they sign up for the newsletter, when the book comes out, I'll email everyone. So some of these stories and more are going to be in there. I haven't actually shared this part of the stuff. It always is a little hard to talk about because it's embarrassing. It's like, right? You have to tell your friends, like, oh my god, that girl dumped me.

And yeah, you don't want to feel like a failure. So, yeah, so you see how I'm like rambling about it? I'm like, uh. You're like going around. All right, so I'll just tell you. So I got fired for a few different reasons. Number one, I was at Coachella and I was a little drunk or something like that. And we were launching a feature where professionals could finally join Facebook, but they're like with their corporate

email address. And I wanted to get press for it. I wanted people to know that we launched it versus just kind of giving it out to our members or users and then hoping people found out. And so I was talking to TechCrunch. This is 2005 or 2006 when no one was reading TechCrunch, right? And Facebook was still less than 10 million people. And I was like, hey, this is launching tomorrow. I'd really like for you to write about it when it goes live. And Michael Arrington put out that article that night and I found out about it. And so I emailed the E team, the executive team, and I took responsibility. I said, hey, I let him know about this for the future launching in the morning and I distinctly remember like laying on the ground and like you know like

a snow angel and I was like it wasn't I wish it was a joke it's not but I remember like after I emailed the e-team taking responsibility I didn't and I was like I just felt so empty and I knew my heart was kind of just like almost it was like slow-mo just looking at the And actually, ironically, I went to Coachella with a bunch of Facebook people, like Dustin Moskovitz, who's now a multi-billionaire, and a bunch of other guys who are super rich. And I just felt very empty. What did you feel empty about? I guess I was curious, like, what's next?

I think with Facebook, they were outgrowing me, and I kind of knew it. Maybe I think that's one of the things in life where when you kind of know something's not right anymore, as you said about friends that didn't really serve you. And I kind of knew maybe that was the point that I needed to move forward with something. But it was maybe even ultimately like I made the wrong decision with what I did. But I don't even really regret sharing that information because it was like, hey, in the morning, I think you should do about this. And if no one's going to do it, like sometimes you get caught when you break the rules. Not everyone's

speeding gets caught. And I thought that was something I was using my judgment to make a good decision when I thought it was for the business. So that was one thing, the reason I got fired. And I just remember, yeah, just even saying it makes me give a little chills. Two other things I haven't shared. One, we had this product. I think we were restructuring a bunch of code, or as they say, developers refactoring. If you ever want to sound cool to a developer, like, hey, you guys refactoring anything? It basically just means are you, like,

reorganizing the code to be more efficient? And, you know, Ezra Callahan, who now is building a hotel in Palm Springs, and, oh, it was a quick side thought. I've never been back to Coachella ever since, and I never will go again. I'm just resentful. Because my friends are in Coachella this week. But Ezra now is building a hotel near Coachella.

And so Ezra and I were both working on products and there's a big refactoring project. And what I realized is that he was very good at getting it organized and I wasn't. And I remember I presented it and it was just kind of shitty and his was just like really clean. And I think what I was recognizing was like that part, you know, I couldn't grow to, in the beginning they just needed stuff done and then, you know, it's kind of like efficiency versus effectiveness. I was very efficient, but when they wanted to be more effective, you know, Ezra was going to be better at doing that and someone else who's already been a project and product manager. Third was we were launching that professional network, Microsoft.com and Dell.com and any corporate company.

And I think the way people think is representative of how they do things. So they asked me to get a list of which companies should we launch with. And I don't think I spent 30 minutes or an hour really sitting down to think about it. I just started trying to figure it out really quickly. Because everything moved very quickly at that company. Uh, and I would just was like, all right, well I'll call info USA. Let me search Google for a list of top hundred companies. And what I ended up doing was all that kind of bullshit and put together some crappy spreadsheet and I gave it to Dustin. He was like, this is really bad. sheet and I gave it to Dustin. He was like, this is really bad. And, uh, and so what I ended up, what he ended up doing was just looking at the database to see which people have already registered corporate companies and just aggregating that. And, um, that was a smarter way of doing it.

And so what, what that taught me was one, try to use data that you already have available, right? So try to create a framework. And I've, try to use data that you already have available. So try to create a framework. And I still use it to this day. How do you create a simple framework for making decisions? So I just need to know what companies to use. So what's really the simplest way to prioritize that? And even in this podcast, I didn't do a good job with this, Lewis, and I do apologize.

But let's say I wanted to make this the most popular podcast you've ever done. I would go, and I didn't do this, I'm not perfect, but I would go and dissect your top five podcasts, listen to them, look at the comments, and try to understand what elements are there so that I can recreate that and do better. And so with this corporate email thing, it's like, all right, well, shit, we already have this data. Let's just aggregate it, prioritize that,

and then just let those people in because we already have those companies available to us. And then we had meetings, you know, honestly, man, it's like, in retrospect, it's like, oh, of course I would have stayed with the money. But we went for meetings of like, I would walk over to Zuck's desk to, and like, hey, what do you think about this? He's like, all right, cool, go do it. To, I would have to go walk to Zuck's secretary, and I'm like, Zuck, I can see you, bro.

But it's like, I've talked to Zuck's secretary who talks to him. To, we'd have meetings that were like 30 people, and there was, you know, Zach, I can see you, bro. But it's like, I've talked to Zach's secretary who talks to him. We'd have meetings that were like 30 people. And there was this older marketing woman. And I'm like, you are useless. There is no point for you being in these decisions or helping us here. You don't add to it. You need to leave. Because it slows down time for everyone with your stupid questions.

And maybe that's what everyone was thinking of me, too. Who knows? But the point being was, the company was growing to it like that's how it was necessary where everyone needed to be informed and it just wasn't suitable to where I was at that time. Obviously, I've grown a lot in the past in 10 years. You can justify or rationalize in either way. I think I've been able to create a life that I've been happy with. I can't go back and just keep going forward. And, you know, as my, as I told you earlier, like I could live in that big penthouse, but still be unhappy with who I am. Yeah. Let's say you did have that 150 million.

What would you be doing differently? What would I be doing differently? I don't know. I love living in Austin, Texas, so I don't think I would live anywhere else. I've traveled the world. Not, I'm not trying to be arrogant or show off. I love living in Austin, Texas, so I don't think I would live anywhere else. I've traveled the world. I'm not trying to be arrogant or show off. I've done a fair amount of traveling. I don't know. I'd probably just be focusing on writing more on okdork.com, and I think with AppSumo,

I'd let the people who want to be working on it work on it more, and I would be engaged a little less with that. But not much. I get to work with guys I love. I get to exercise. I get to go travel and do activities I want. Maybe I'd have a bigger apartment, but I actually like the view I have. I don't live in the penthouse,

I just get a really great view of it. And with that penthouse, it's a big ass space you're gonna be all alone in. So no, I'm pretty content with actually how most things are right now with my life. I don't think there's anything materially. And one thing I've, you know, my mom was really good and I'd encourage any of your listeners to do is that you feel really good when you lose weight, right? If, you know, assuming you want to, but most of the time, anytime you lose weight, you feel better.

You're like, oh, I'm looking good. And so a lot of times what I do in my place is like, what items am I not using? And so maybe about once a month, I'll throw away one thing or donate it to Goodwill. And so I've just found that makes me a lot happier and it declutterifies my place and just makes me feel lighter. And my mom used to do, I forgot, she used to make me do that once a month. No, it's cleaning time. I'm like, mom, all I got is underwear and white t-shirts. I got nothing left to give. And it was just a really good experience where like, you know, try to remove the things because those things ultimately can't be buried with you.

All you have is the experiences and the memories. That's true. And so really, where do you get those from? It's from doing unique things. Like we went out to a bar Saturday night, my friend, wear a bear costume. And, you know, that doesn't happen too often when you go with a bear at a bar. But, you know, no amount of money. I don't need that, you know, tons of amount of money to do that.

And the other thing I'd say about having a lot of money, Louis, is I do have some money. So I'm not, you know, no amount of money. I don't need that, you know, tons of amount of money to, to do that. And the other thing I'd say about, about having a lot of money, Lewis is I do have some money, so I'm not, you know, I am fortunate. I don't have to worry about where my money comes in each month. Um, but I'll tell you from my, my own experience, like, yeah, I could afford more nicer things externally from what other people may think I should be buying. But I've actually found that I'm enjoying, I get to, when I do buy those kinds kind of things or I do go to Vegas for a night and we all spend like 5K a person, I enjoy that more than doing that every weekend or doing that all the time. And maybe then my bar would just keep getting raised like more and more and more and more. But I found that living a life that I'm really happy with and then once in a while splurging just actually satisfies me and serves me at a higher fulfillment than just doing that all the time. Yeah, because then it becomes like boring if you do it the same you know same thing over and

over it doesn't matter what level it's at it's like okay let's go to the next level yeah it's like you know think about it if you do let's say you you love ice cream and you every day you're eating that ice cream every day you're in action eventually you're like man i think i'm like and i try to do that with my own things like smaller levels. Like today, I wanted to eat a rice cake with almond butter on it. I really wanted to eat it. I know, I know. I eat boring, healthy food. Mad Fientist I like that.

That sounds good. Dr. Justin Marchegiani Yeah. I mean, I'm all about it. I love MyFitnessPal.com. I was telling you about that where I track all I eat. I have this Facebook group where we all post photos of us working out. But anyway, so I really wanted this rice cake. And I said, all right, man, well, you got to clean up the counter, you got to get dinner, start cooking, then you could have it. And I think I just find that delaying gratification, like I really find more power in myself and more strength or in doing

those activities. I feel good, or even not drinking. I've been trying that out. And, you know, the weekdays when I'm not drinking, like I go out and people are all drinking, adding calories, acting stupid. And then, frankly, the next day I don't feel as clear. I feel stronger not doing it. So delaying that gratification so it's more memorable. Like on a Saturday when we want to go out, you know, with a bear costume, you know, it's a really fun experience. So I think that kind of all ties back to I don't think my life would be that much different. And that's what I would encourage everyone to do.

A lot of people go work at corporate jobs so they can do something else. And obviously you can't go do something else immediately but start thinking tonight, right now, this podcast, pause it. What small thing can I do? What 15 minutes can I do to move to the life I actually want to be living? And I met this guy, Brian, from VideoFruit.com. He said something really powerful, and it really affected a lot of people this weekend. He was one of the members of our monthly1k.com program.

And he's now making, I don't know, $5,000, $10,000 a month. And he's like, man, you really want to get ahead? Wake up at 5 a.m. and get to work. No amount of excuses can stop you. He said, he said, fear of failure is still asleep at 5am. He said, fear is still asleep at 5am. And I just love that. And it's like, you know, if you really want something, like you really want your own business, you really want to get going. And I know you might have kids and I have a wife, you may have a shitty job, get up at 5am and do it. And that's really what's going to separate the people, you know, like Brian and others

who are going to get what they want versus people who are going to kind of just be always consuming and listening to other people having it. I love it. Well, I know we went over our time and I think you're late to your gym session already, but I was just enamored by your storytelling and your voice is so soothing

that I just like loving it. This actually went differently than I expected, but I, it actually, it turned out for me better. And, uh, I'm, I'm just, uh, we got to talk about life and I was going to talk to you more about business, but I'm grateful. We, we talked more about life in business. So I'm, I'm, I'm very, I'm very pleased. And. And for me, I feel like this is one of the top episodes I have because of all the unique stories that you shared. And I think you have a wise stance on everything. And I'm just grateful to know you and to know what you've been up to in the last few years and the work you've done on yourself. And like you said, you can have ego at some times, but you

really have a lot of humility. And you check yourself all the time which i think is valuable and important for everyone to listen to and hear about because you know we all have ego from time to time and we get to check ourselves and check in and see what's what's serving us and what's not so uh final Final question then. What's your definition of greatness? Wow. What is my definition of greatness? I'll just tell it with another story. Perfect. I'll do a brief story about what greatness looks like.

I think greatness is defined by yourself. And when we write at AppSumo.com, we write newsletters. And we send out an email promoting products like yours and products like LinkedIn and MailChimp and other cool tools for entrepreneurs. And we spend probably between 24 and 72 hours writing one email. Most people spend about five minutes writing an email. And so I asked Anton, I was like, why the fuck do we spend so much time writing this email? And I really was thinking about that. I'm like, why do we care so much about this email? And then we were talking about it and we're like, well, it represents us. So when people get that email and they think, wow, that was a great email or wow, I can't believe that story that they shared. It represents who we are and how we want to be represented externally. And I think my greatness is defined by like, am I living the life I want to live?

And am I doing it my way? And I think that's what everyone should be asking themselves. Like, look at other people. As we talked about, you know, feedback, look at how other people are doing it. But ultimately, don't let the external things, you know, decide how you want to be great. Just look at them for how they're doing it and see internally, what does your greatness look like? And yeah, make sure to

sign up on appstumer.com because those emails are some of the best emails that i've ever read thanks bro coming from a you know a business marketing standpoint so definitely check those out and also check out okdork.com you can see noah's big smile pink shirt and a green background and uh check them out there as well. And I love your, I'm looking at your Facebook profile right now. Something I love about you, just two things represented on your Facebook profile that other people won't be able to see by the time of this comes out is one, your profile picture is turned to the side.

So you can't see your, it's not like a normal picture. It's like tilted, which tells me something about you. You can't see your, it's not like a normal picture. It's like tilted, which tells me something about you. And then your last post that came from Instagram says best fortune ever. And the fortune cookie says, don't worry about the world coming to an end. It's already tomorrow in Australia.

So can I add one more thing? Sure. Or two more things. I don't know how you wrap up normally your things, but I'll give you actually the inside. Do you know why my photo is sideways besides I thought it was a little different? No, why? So when I worked at Facebook, I uploaded that photo, right? Because it was very early on, not as many people were on it.

I think I'm user number 120359 or some shit like that. And once I got fired, i've never changed that profile photo really that's where it came from so that as much as like yeah it's kind of unique and a lot of times i'm like oh yeah add me on the face sideways um i don't i'll never change it wow so it was sideways when you were at facebook as well where you said i was when i got there so i guess that photo's from 2006 i think it's my brother's graduation and it's been that way ever since.

I guess I still look moderately similar. And then the second thing, so that's an inside secret for your people.

It's not like a Da Vinci code secret. And the second thing is one of my favorite books. And so I want to encourage your

people to get active with your site. So can I give away 10 books to 10 people who comment on one of my

favorite books recently? Is that cool? Sure. So can I give away 10 books to 10 people who comment on one of my favorite books recently? Is that cool? Sure. So I want your people to say, what is the greatest thing, or what's something great that they're doing for themselves today? And then 10 people who comment.

So the book is called Small Giants by Bo Burlingham. I don't know if you've checked that out yet. I haven't. Dude, well, I'm going to send you that. So 11 books. So one for you and then 10 for the people who comment. So do something great for yourself today. Tell us what you're going to do or tell us what you did even better.

And so Small Giants, man, it's not about necessarily you can be a big-ass company like Facebook or you could be a one-person freelance studio in Ohio or in Arkansas. But it's just about doing something great for yourself. And so instead of just trying to be growing and scaling and making more money and being big, which is not bad things, just be true to yourself and be great. And it goes through companies like Cliff Bar and Danny Meyer's group, the restaurant group in New York, and just really interesting stories. And yeah, I definitely felt that book.

So I want to share that with your audience. I love it. So how are you going to choose people? I mean, I'm there. How are you going to send the first 10? Is it the 10 most interesting things? Yeah, I think the 10 most interesting. Like I would prefer stuff that people are doing.

Like, hey, here's something great I've already done today versus something that they're going to be doing. But I'm open either way. So I'll just choose the 10 most interesting within seven days of when you publish the podcast. Sweet. Awesome. I appreciate it. Yeah, it's a 10 comment. I'm just writing it down.

See, I'm putting in the calendar. When's the podcast coming out? I'll let you know sometime this month. I'll let you know and I'll email you before it comes live. All right, brother. I'm going to go hit the gym. Thank you very much for the time. Thanks so much, Noah. Appreciate it, man. All right. Peace.

And I hope you guys enjoyed this episode great thanks so much for listening Noah is an awesome guy a genius really smart and I hope you enjoyed this if you did enjoy it please leave a comment over on the blog at the show notes at lewishouse.com slash 66 so go on head over there leave a comment I'm going to ask you a question towards So go on, head over there, leave a comment. I'm going to ask you a question towards the end of the show notes there. So leave a comment based on that question. And go ahead and share this with your friends over on Twitter and Facebook and tag a picture on Instagram where you are listening to this in the world right now.

I love seeing all of your updates with images on Instagram. And go ahead and tag Noah as well on Instagram. You should be able to find them if you search for Noah Kagan. Yeah, subscribe on iTunes. Please keep subscribing. Leave a review on iTunes, on SoundCloud, on Stitcher. Those really help get the show out there. Again, I mentioned in the beginning, we just hit 1.5 million downloads and it's all because of you. So thank you so much. I'm so grateful for your support, for spreading the word. And if you have yet to subscribe, just go ahead and click the subscribe button on iTunes, on your podcasting app, if you've got an

iPhone or subscribe on Stitcher. And that's just going to support the show even more and get it up in the rankings so that more people can see this. So with that, guys, thanks so much for checking this out today. Again, go ahead and check out lewishouse.com slash 66 to get all the show notes that we talked about in today's interview. And thank you for listening. You guys know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great. Great. Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain, and most fools do. But it takes character and self-control to be understanding and forgiving. A great man shows his greatness, said Carlyle, by the way he treats little men. We'll be right now, so get up right now Cause all we got is right now you