The School of Greatness - 664 Jordan Peterson on Responsibility and Meaning

Starting point is 00:00:00 This is episode number 664 with best-selling author Jordan Peterson Welcome to the school of greatness My name is Lewis Howes a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur and each week We bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Winston Churchill said, the price of greatness is responsibility. We have Jordan Peterson in the house. And for those that don't know, Dr. Jordan Peterson is a professor at the University of Toronto, a clinical psychologist, and author of the hit book, 12 Rules for Life,

Starting point is 00:00:52 An Antidote to Chaos, which has now sold over one and a half million copies in about six months since it came out. This is taking over the world. There's so much media news and attention around Dr. Peterson. And I'm so excited that we had an opportunity to connect and really dive in deep on some things that I haven't heard him talk about from a lot of the interviews he's done. He got extremely vulnerable a couple of times, and we are doing a two-part series on this. So make sure to listen all the way to the end and listen to the second part as well, as this may inspire you and open you up in a whole new way. His YouTube channel features his university and public lectures. He's got hundreds of videos, over 1.2 million subscribers, and over 60 million views over there. His popular podcast is always in the top on iTunes in the higher education category. And he's considered a main thought leader in belief systems and human psychology. And today,

Starting point is 00:01:52 we talk about why taking responsibility for your life is so important. Also, why sports figures are so admirable and what we can learn from them. Why having a vision or some type of aim, even a bad aim, lessens our suffering in life. The risk of wandering in no man's land with zero purpose and a mindset tool to motivate you to do hard things. This, I'm telling you guys, is a powerful episode. Make sure you listen all the way to the end. Make sure to share with a friend, lewishouse.com slash 664 and tag myself and Dr.

Starting point is 00:02:33 Jordan Peterson over on Instagram to let us know that you're listening and what you're getting out of this podcast. Before we dive in, give a quick shout out to the fan of the week. This is from Joshua Grimm who says, Lewis, thank you so much for what you do. I've always daydreamed of what it would be like to have a few moments to pick the brains of the most influential people, and you provide that gateway. Your interviews and questions with all the people you meet

Starting point is 00:02:57 are so moving. As a music lover, I have had to change my driving habits for the better, and now I have made a habit of listening to you in your interviews on my morning commute. Thank you. So Joshua Grimm, thanks for being the fan of the week. Means a lot.

Starting point is 00:03:13 And if you guys haven't left a review yet, you can over on the podcast app or on iTunes and just leave us a review. We've got over 3,200 five-star reviews now and they keep coming. So thanks so much for all your reviews. Welcome, everyone, back to the School of Greatness podcast. We've got the legendary Jordan Peterson in the house.

Starting point is 00:03:33 Good to see you, sir. Good to see you. Very excited about this. You've got a book out called 12 Rules for Life. Make sure you guys check this out. You've probably already got it, but if you don't, I'm telling you, go pick it up right now. An antidote to chaos. You've had so much attention over this last couple of years, and I've been digging into

Starting point is 00:03:49 the research and just been fascinated by everything that you've been up to. And I just love your stance on the vision you have for humanity in terms of how we can all live better lives. And I think you simplify a lot of things in this book, which some things people don't like to simplify. They like to complicate. And I think that's what's gotten you a lot of attention, is that you try to really simplify a lot of these things. Well, I try to make everything concrete so that it's actually implementable. I mean, there's a lot of high-level abstractions in the book because it ranges up into the theological and the philosophical, but it's always grounded in what you can actually do in your life practically. You want to bridge that

Starting point is 00:04:29 gap from the highest abstraction down to the lowest level of behavior so that it becomes implementable. That's how philosophical concepts take on their meaning, right? Because they have to have some impact on the way you see the world and the way you act in the world, or they're not fully realized. They're not understood. Because partly what we mean, I would say, when we say that we understand something, it's kind of a strange phrase to understand something. But it means to be able to embody it in a shift of view and a shift of action.

Starting point is 00:04:58 And then you've got it. It's graspable. It's in your hand. Embody something in a shift of view? Well, they're the same thing, because perceptions are very tightly linked to your actions, because, of course, when you're acting, you're aiming at something. You have to be devoted towards some aim, some target.

Starting point is 00:05:15 We play that out in sports all the time. That's why sports are so entertaining for people is because they dramatize the idea of aim, and not only of aim, but of the pursuit of excellence in pursuit of that aim. That's the game. And the reason it's a spectacle and the reason that people participate in it is because it dramatizes something absolutely essential about life. And so you want to take philosophical abstractions and you want to use them to structure your aim. And then your perceptions organize around that aim, and then you act it out, and then you've got it.

Starting point is 00:05:46 Then it's become part of your life. It's not just a philosophical abstraction that floats free in space. Why is there so much conflict in the world? Is it because there's so many different perceptions that people have on what they think should be right or what they should be equal? Sure. Well, part of it is, part of it, of course, there's conflict because we have real problems. And so life is actually difficult, independent of psychological foolishness,

Starting point is 00:06:12 let's say, independent of the obstacles that we put in our own path. It's already challenging. It's already fatally challenging, right? Life is the ultimate challenge. We will die. Yes, yes. So there is a challenge, yeah. Yes.

Starting point is 00:06:26 Uncertainty, fear, pain, all those things. Yes, everything that goes along with suffering is a challenge, and it's the full challenge because it takes everything you have. And so part of the reason we disagree is because there are complex problems to solve, and then we also disagree because we're willfully blind and because we're more ignorant than we should be, and we not everything we should be and we tilt towards malevolence from time to time and we betray each other and ourselves and so we take a bad lot in many ways and make it worse now not always obviously and we don't have to but that's sort of the

Starting point is 00:06:58 baseline that we're working against I think people are most disappointed in life when they're disappointed in themselves. You know, they see that they've made things worse than they had to be, even though the baseline can be pretty brutal. So, yeah, and so the book and all my lectures, I suppose, are put forward in an attempt to take the high-level philosophical abstractions and to make them into something that's actionable. And to take the next best action in your life to improve your life so we don't have to suffer as much. Well, and hopefully also so that people around you don't have to either. So one of the things I've been talking to my audiences about

Starting point is 00:07:34 is the relationship between responsibility and meaning, which is, what would you say, it's a constant refrain in the book. It's one of its underlying messages, let's say, or themes is a better way of thinking about it. If you start with the presumption that there's a baseline of suffering in life and that that can be exaggerated by, as a consequence of human failing, as a consequence of malevolence and betrayal and self-betrayal and deceit and all those things that we do to each other and ourselves that we know that aren't good, that amplifies the suffering.

Starting point is 00:08:05 That's sort of the baseline against which you have to work. And it's contemplation of that often that makes people hopeless and depressed and anxious and overwhelmed and all of that. And they have the reasons. But you need something to put up against that. And what you put up against that is meaning. Meaning is actually the instinct that helps you guide yourself through that catastrophe and most of that meaning is to be found in the

Starting point is 00:08:31 adoption of responsibility so if you think for example if you think about the people that you admire well you think about when you have a clear conscience first because that's a good thing to aim at which is something different than happiness right a clear conscience is different than happiness that's better yeah better guilting yourself you're not feeling bad about your right you feel that you've just explained you've justified your existence right and so you're not waking up at 3 in the morning in a cold sweat thinking about all the terrible things that you've involved yourself in what you said to someone that you shouldn't have said or how you acted or lied. What opportunity you lost or the things that you've let go that you should have capitalized on and all of that.

Starting point is 00:09:11 And so if you think about the times when you're at peace with yourself with regards to how you're conducting yourself in the world, it's almost always conditions under which you've adopted responsibility, right? At least the most guilt I think that you can experience, perhaps, is the sure knowledge that you're not even taking care of yourself, so that you're leaving that responsibility to other people, because that's pretty pathetic, unless you're psychopathic, and you're living a parasitical life, and that characterizes a very small minority of people, and an even smaller minority think that's justifiable But most of the time you're in guilt and shame because you're not not only are you not taking care of yourself? Let's say so someone else has to but you're not living up to your full potential And so there's a existential weight that goes along with that

Starting point is 00:09:59 So you suffer even more hmm when you don't take care of yourself or take the best actions or? Do the work that you know you can do. And you rely on someone else to support you financially, emotionally, physically, whatever, you know, home, whatever it may be. Yeah, well, because you're not only not being what you could be, you're interfering with someone else being what they could be, right? So you're not only a void, you're a drain. Right. Jesus, that's a catastrophe. But we usually don't even know it when we're in that situation

Starting point is 00:10:28 because we're in a depressed state or we're... Or we don't want to see it. You know, you wake up at 3 in the morning and you know. And then you think of the people that you... So you admire yourself or perhaps you can at least live with yourself when you're taking responsibility at least for yourself. And so that settles your conscience. But then if you look at the people that you spontaneously admire, and so the act of

Starting point is 00:10:51 spontaneously admiring someone is the manifestation of the instinct for meaning, right? And this is partly why people are so enamored of sports figures, because the sports figures are playing out the drama of attaining the goal, of attaining a certain kind of, let's say, psychological and physical perfection in pursuit of the goal. That's the drama. And to spontaneously admire that is to have that instinct for meaning latch onto something that can be used as a model. And then that model should be transcribed into something that's applicable in life. You know, and you really like to see in an athletic performance, you really like to see someone who's extremely disciplined and in shape do something physically remarkable and to stretch themselves even beyond their previous exploits, because you really like

Starting point is 00:11:35 to see a brilliant move in an athletic match. But you also like to see that person ensconced in a broader moral framework so that not only are they trying to win and disciplining themselves in pursuit of that victory and then stretching themselves so they're continually getting better but they're doing it in a way that helps develop their whole team and that's good for the sport in general and that reflects well on the broader culture they're great leader in their team they're positive they're good uh sportsmen against the competitors they're not negative towards the other people they're lifting them're good uh sportsmen against the competitors they're not negative towards the other people they're lifting them up to yeah like the ultimate that's right so

Starting point is 00:12:09 human that's right so that they can they can work for their own improvement in a way that simultaneously works for the improvement of their team and that and and for the sport and well and then to the degree that that spills over into the broader culture so much the better so that's all being dramatized in a athletic event. And it's really, it's not philosophical, it's concrete, right? It's dramatized in the world. And that's what the games represent. And so, well, it's partly because, well, in some sense, life is a game. It is. It is. The analogy is that in life, like in sports, you're setting forth an aim and then arranging your perceptions and

Starting point is 00:12:46 your actions in pursuit of that aim. And that you also generally do it while cooperating and competing with other people. So that's also the game-like element as well. All of that's dramatized in athletics. That's like philosophy for people who aren't philosophical. And I'm not being smart about that. It's like it really is philosophy for people who aren't being philosophical because it's played out. And you can see it too. You can see the spontaneous appreciation for the human spirit manifest itself when you see people rise to their feet spontaneously in a sports arena when they see someone do something particularly remarkable. See an athlete who's extremely trained stretch themselves beyond what you'd think is a normative human limit and everyone celebrates that like spontaneously so it's quite something to yeah to behold and so

Starting point is 00:13:31 take me back to responsibility and meaning when we're watching sports or someone do this act what does this do for us with in terms of responsibility and meaning well it it helps us figure out what we can imitate gives us a model. Yes, it's a model. Here's a model of something that I respect. Well, even what philosophy is, or even theology for that matter, is an abstract model. Like it's laid out in words. Now, the problem often is it becomes so abstract that people don't know how to bring it back down to embodiment.

Starting point is 00:14:01 Yes. Whereas something like the drama of a sports event is sort of midway between philosophy and action. It's not entirely abstracted because it's not only coded in words. It's acted out. Visual. You can see an example of what just happens and you can try to reverse engineer how they did that. Well, yes, exactly. Well, at least the fact that you admire the person means that you might start to try to act like them and maybe that would mean maybe that would mean that you start to discipline yourself with regards to a particular sport but it might also be that you start to mimic or are at least affected in

Starting point is 00:14:34 some way by their their sportsman sportsman-like behavior right which is the ground of a certain kind of ethic because if you can play well with others which is sort of the hallmark of a certain kind of ethic because if you can play well with others, which is sort of the hallmark of a good sport, then that actually means that you're a reasonably sophisticated and civilized person. It's really important to learn to play well with others. That's the ground of ethics. And if you can do it there in that setting, then hopefully you could translate it into life setting. Well, right. That's exactly right. That's the goal. Well, that's what you hope for. Yeah, that's the goal. If the goal of the game is to put the ball through the ball into the net, then the goal of having games is to produce people who can take proper aim no matter where they are. That's exactly what we're trying to do with athletics.

Starting point is 00:15:18 So I've been talking to my audiences a lot about that. And there's more to it, too, because if the background of life is there's an ineradicable component of suffering, and that's complicated by, let's say, malevolence and the proclivity of people to betray themselves and others, which complicates it and makes it worse, then if you don't have a noble aim, and if that isn't imbuing your life with sustainable meaning then you fall prey to all the catastrophe this pain and the anxiety and the anger that that suffering generates and that makes you bitter because what I'm hearing you say is that and correct me if I'm wrong we must have an aim in our life no

Starting point is 00:16:01 matter what stage of life we're in and if we don't have some type of aim even if for a few months of an aim of going somewhere, or direction, the suffering's gonna be even more suffering. Pointless. Because we're already gonna face the greatest challenges in life. We're already struggling. That's right.

Starting point is 00:16:18 There's no way out of that. Adversity is coming no matter what. If we have big goals or small little goal, or whatever it may be, but it's gonna be less suffering if we have an aim. Yeah, well, it's worse than that even because the suffering is pain. There's zero meaning. Well, the suffering is pain and the suffering is anxiety and uncertainty and the suffering is hopelessness. But the consequence of all that is that you get bitter. And when you get bitter, you get mean and you get cruel and you start to hurt yourself and other people. So it's not only that if you don't have a goal, you suffer. It's that

Starting point is 00:16:49 if you don't have a goal, you suffer and then you get cruel and bitter and resentful. And then you start to actively try to make the world a worse place. And so, because you can't suffer pointlessly without becoming bitter and you can't become bitter without becoming cruel. So you need an aim. The question is, then the question, of course, is what you should aim. A better aim. Yeah, a better aim. That's for sure. So then the question is, what should your aim be? Now we have a program. It's one of the things I wanted to talk to you about today. I have this website called selfauthoring.com and that program helps people write about their life. And so there's a past authoring.com and that program helps people write about their life and so there's a past authoring program to establish your aim you have to know where you are it's like you're trying to

Starting point is 00:17:30 orient yourself on a map you can't orient yourself on a map unless you know where you are you also have to know where you're going right so those are the two relevant things the past authoring program helps people write about their lives so it's's a guided autobiography. We ask people to break their life up into six epochs, six sections, and then to write about the emotionally important events in those epochs and to detail out why the positive things happened and why more of that could conceivably happen in the future and to detail out why the negative things happened and to try to understand why with an aim to not replicating them

Starting point is 00:18:05 in the future because the purpose of memory isn't to remember the past the purpose of memory is so that you figure out what went wrong when something went wrong so you don't duplicate it in the future so that's the purpose of memory and the past authoring program can help people catch up and you know you have to catch up if you have memories that are older than about a year and a half that still cause you emotional pain when you think about them. Or if you dwell on them, they come spontaneously back to mind. It means that there's part of your life that you haven't mapped out properly and it still has emotional valence that's gripping you. You're still holding on to that story. Or it's still holding on to you.

Starting point is 00:18:42 Mm, interesting. You haven't let it go. Yeah. Well, you haven't been able to navigate your way through it you there's a pitfall there that you fell in and you don't know how to avoid similar pitfalls in the future and that's why your brain won't let it go because it's saying that's what the anxiety systems do it's like this happened to you it wasn't good this happened to you it wasn't good this happened to you it wasn't good fix it fix it fix it fix it that will never go away unless you fix it how do you fix it well you have to figure out why it happened right that's the first thing is like how did you how was it that that situation arose to pull you down and that's not simple that's why

Starting point is 00:19:15 well that's why we have the writing program because it's complicated to think it through but if you face it and you meditate on it let's say saying you do this voluntarily there's a pretty high probability that you'll be able to decrease the probability that will be repeated in the future. So the second part of the program helps people do an analysis of their virtues and their faults. Same sort of idea. What's good about you that you could capitalize on? What's weak about you that you need to fix so that it doesn't bring you down, right? And that's the present authoring, but the future authoring program is probably most relevant to you and your listeners because you're interested in helping people establish aims. And so we already talked about the fact that you need

Starting point is 00:19:54 an aim in life or that's where you derive your meaning. And without that, things go to hell, as literally as that can be taken. But it's not easy to ask people to say, well, it's easy to ask them, what do you want in your life? It's a very hard question to answer because it's too vague and grand. So we help, in the future authoring program, we help people break that down.

Starting point is 00:20:17 It's okay, so here's the situation. So you put yourself in the right frame of mind. So what's the right frame of mind? It's like rule two in this book. Treat yourself like you're someone responsible for helping. You're someone that you are responsible for helping. So what that means is you have to start from the presupposition that despite all your flaws and insufficiencies, that it's worth having you around and that it would be okay if things were better for you.

Starting point is 00:20:41 So you need to take care of yourself like you're taking care of someone you care for. So there's a bit of a detachment in that. And then the next thing is, okay, so now look three to five years down the road. Okay, you get to have what you need and want, assuming you're being reasonable and that you actually want it, which means you're willing to make the sacrifices that would make it possible. What do you mean by reasonable? Well, within your grasp, that would be something something what if something is out of your grasp, but You still push hard enough. Well, then you get it then you need an incremental plan, right? You need to break that goal down into steps some crazy goal within a year That's like you haven't even done the work to master a skill yet. Yeah. Yeah

Starting point is 00:21:19 Well, that's it and you can have a high-end goal and more power to you if you do time you need it Yeah, well you need a pathway to it. Absolutely. If it's 10 stories up above you, you need a staircase to get there, right? And so you have to build the staircase too. And so in the future authoring program, so you're asked, first of all, okay, you get to have what you want and need. That's the proposition. But you have to aim at it.

Starting point is 00:21:41 You have to define it and aim at it. So then the first thing is, okay, if you could put your family together the way you wanted it to be, what would that look like? And so that might be your siblings and your parents, but that also might be, you know, your wife or your husband and your kids, assuming that you're at that point in your life. If you could have the family you wanted, what would that look like? Right, okay. Career, same thing. You get to have the career or the job that is within your grasp, necessary, and suitable for you if you were taking care of yourself. How are you going to educate yourself? Because you're not as smart as you should be. There's a lot more things you need

Starting point is 00:22:15 to know. So you've got to keep learning and moving forward. So you need to plan for that. How are you going to take care of yourself mentally and physically, right? So how are you going to avoid the catastrophic temptations, for example, of drugs and alcohol? Because that pulls a lot of people down. You need a plan for that. Are you going to be a social drinker? How much are you going to drink? How much is too much?

Starting point is 00:22:34 What about your drug use? You've got to regulate that so it isn't a pitfall. How are you going to use your time meaningful and productively outside of work? Because you need a plan for that. So that's, and there's one other that's in my mind at the moment. Yeah, I think there's seven initial questions. Intimate relationship, of course. So you have, do you want a long-term stable intimate relationship? And if you do, then how would you like that to lay itself out? You've got to have a vision for that because if you don't

Starting point is 00:22:59 have a vision, you're not going to aim at it. And if you don't aim at it, then you won't even see the opportunities when they arise. That's the thing that's so cool. I wrote about this in chapter 10, which is be precise in your speech. It's a chapter about the fact that aims structure your perceptions. So for example, once you aim at something, your brain, literally the perceptual structures in your brain, in your visual cortex, reorient themselves to calculate a pathway to the aim. structures in your brain, in your visual cortex, reorient themselves to calculate a pathway to the aim. And then what they show you in the world is obstacles to that path and open pathways to the path. That's actually how the world reveals itself. Just like when you're driving in a car and you have a map and you aim at a particular place, then all the things that are related to

Starting point is 00:23:42 that place show up in the world. It's exactly the same thing. Because you are traveling through time and space, right? And you need a map. And so after you answer these seven questions, and you're encouraged to do it badly, because you don't have to get perfectionistic, just complete it, right? Because a bad plan is better than no plan. It gives you something to improve. So even if your aim is vague, and even if it's off target, if you start aiming and you see you're off target, then you can shift and you can make it more precise.

Starting point is 00:24:10 You start to recognize what you don't want in that. Yes, exactly. Say, oh, I thought I wanted this, but I don't. So let me re-navigate and figure out what I do want. Exactly. And you might have to try a bunch of things. Well, you will have to. That's why you shouldn't get perfectionistic about it.

Starting point is 00:24:22 You will absolutely be wrong, but you won't be as wrong as you would have been if you were aimless so there's a bit of no man's land is worse than going somewhere is a bit worse than a bad path yeah that's exactly right oh i like that that's a good one that's a good one and it's right it's right you don't want to be in no man's land why did you you use that phrase? Because that's right. That's exactly right. I think for me the idea of walking around aimlessly is like The worst idea in the world. It's like zero purpose zero mission zero certainty at all It's like walking around in no man's land aimlessly But it's funny too because in no man's land everybody's shooting at you

Starting point is 00:25:02 Because that's a military term. No man's's land is the space between two enemy positions. You bet. So if you're aimless, you're also at a place where everything is shooting at you. Dang. So it's a very good metaphor that came to mind. Yeah, well, that's why we worked on it. That's very, very cool. So then we say to people, okay, look, now you've thought about this for a while.

Starting point is 00:25:22 It's nice to do this over a couple of days, too, because then you get to sleep on it. And that helps reorient yourself. So then, okay, now you've thought about this for a while. It's nice to do this over a couple of days too because then you get to sleep on it. And that helps reorient yourself. So then, okay, now you write for 20 minutes. Don't worry about grammar or spelling. This isn't a composition exercise, right? You get to have what you want three to five years down the road. What does your life look like hypothetically? Write it out.

Starting point is 00:25:40 Write it out. Okay, so then that's the first part. The second part of the exercise, so now you've got your thing to aim at. Think, well, I'm motivated because I got my thing to aim at. It's like, you're not as motivated as you could be because you don't yet have your thing to run away from. Because if you really want to be motivated, you want to be going somewhere and you want to be not going somewhere else. Which typically is a pain, right? Yes. Pain or anxiety. Some domain of suffering and guilt, let's say. I don't want to feel this anymore.

Starting point is 00:26:07 Yes, exactly. Exactly. So the other thing we ask people is, okay, now take stock of your weaknesses and imagine that you let them multiply. You got hopeless and you augured in and things were as bad for you as they could be in three to five years. What are some examples of weaknesses that people might have? They lie. They procrastinate. They avoid. They're grandiose. They're narcissistic. They're undisciplined. They're nihilistic. They're aimless. All of those things. Got it. Yeah. Right? Victim mentality. Victim mentality. They take the quick way out. They pursue impulsive pleasures. They sacrifice meaning for expediency. They don't take care of their basic responsibilities.

Starting point is 00:26:46 They fight stupidly with their parents. They don't negotiate properly with their spouse. They're bitter at work because they haven't said what they have to say. They haven't thought through what they're doing tomorrow. They drink too much. They smoke too much. They take too many drugs. They don't regulate their…

Starting point is 00:27:01 Don't work out yet. Yeah. So there's like… Got it. And everyone knows, man. Everyone knows. And everyone's got a set of weaknesses that they know about. So there's like, and everyone knows, man, everyone knows, and everyone's got a set of weaknesses that they know about. And so we say, all right. What are some of your weaknesses, like three weaknesses that you know right now you can still work on? And then three

Starting point is 00:27:14 things that you think are really. Well, a lot of things, a lot of things are things that I've taken care of in my life. Like I used to smoke when I was a kid, I smoked a pack a day. I used to drink a lot. I didn't work out. Like I wasn't nearly as disciplined as I should have been. I wasn't as careful with what I was saying. And I suppose my most likely negative outcome probably would have been, I really like to drink. Like, alcohol is a really good drug for me. Is that why you did your thesis on that?

Starting point is 00:27:38 Well, partly. It was mostly because the opportunity came up for me to investigate drug and alcohol use. But I came from a little town in northern Alberta. It was a heavy drinking town. And that could have been a real trap for me. So anyway, so we have these people who say, okay, now you know your weaknesses. And you know what particular hell you would descend to if you allowed yourself to descend into it. Because you've probably had a taste of it.

Starting point is 00:28:00 It's like you really let that go. And you're in a terrible place in three to five years because you haven't done what you should do. What does that look like? It's like everybody writes that down. Write it down so you know. Because one of the things you want to have behind you, let's say you have to do something difficult like go confront your boss. It's like, well, maybe hope isn't enough to encourage you to do that. You think, if I don't go confront my boss carefully and intelligently, then I'm going to hate my job and then I'm going to drink more. Then I'm going to end up in that little hell place that I designed for myself. It's like, oh, I'm not going there. Well, I don't want to talk to my boss or I don't want to

Starting point is 00:28:33 confront my wife or my husband, whatever it is, or my father or my children for that matter. But if I don't. Then I'll resent myself or resent the situation. I'm going to end up going down this terrible pathway. It's like, because sometimes when you're moving forward, you have to do something difficult and you might think, well, why bother? And the answer is, well, so I don't end up in hell. How about that? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. There's that. If you don't experience the pain now or the difficulty now, you're going to have a deeper pain later. Yeah. Yeah. That's life. Much deeper pain later. And that's why that's life. Much deeper pain later. And that's why I think that you mentioned at one point is like putting ourselves in

Starting point is 00:29:10 structured pain, like structured sense of feeling pain throughout the day, whether it be the tough conversation. I don't want to do that. It's painful, but I'm going to because I know afterwards it's going to probably feel better. It's a bit of a sacrifice, right? So you sacrifice stability in the present for a gain in the future. That's the big discovery of human beings. Sacrifice works.

Starting point is 00:29:32 And were you a big athlete growing up? No. No? Well, I was a small kid, and I skipped a grade. Although I skied, and I went cross-country skiing, and it's individual sports, mostly with my dad. You'll understand then, in order to improve as an athlete or in any sport you have to put yourself through daily pain yeah right if you want to achieve that model of excellence that you watch someone playing basketball as a child and you see someone living

Starting point is 00:29:54 this model it's going to be 15 years of deliberate pain yeah that's a discipline that's it yeah well i worked out for a long time with weights you know so you know you felt it every day you didn't want to push through the pain but you knew that it would get you a greater result yeah well and it's easier not to do it than to do it but not in the long run yeah exactly you know i really seen the benefits for example for weightlifting because i've watched people because i'm 58 50 how old am i 56 you look great no i'm soon as i'm getting older and i've really noticed the difference between people and when they age between people who laid down a good physiological platform when they were young and those who didn't because by the if you haven't worked out weights particularly I would say you start to get pretty soft in your 30s and your cardiovascular system starts to go and really early the other

Starting point is 00:30:40 thing too is the best thing you can do to maintain cognitive ability, it's exercise. So if you're 50, both cardiovascular and weightlifting, if you're 50, you can restore your cognitive function to the level of a 30-year-old through exercise. Your mental function through physical activity. Yeah, well, your brain is a very demanding organ. And if your cardiovascular system is compromised, then you get stupid. Wow. And so, yeah, it's really… So the less you move and the bigger you get, the more stupid you become.

Starting point is 00:31:08 Yeah, well, because you compromise its function. Because the brain is the organ that uses more. It's very metabolically demanding. And so if you're not in good physical shape, then one of the things that suffers most greatly is your cognitive function. And so that's quite an interesting thing to see how tight that linkage is. So in the next part of the program, we have people, now it's okay, now you've got your vision. Yeah. Even if it's a bad one, it's still okay.

Starting point is 00:31:35 That's right. Well, it's better than no vision at all, right? It's something that you can improve. Well, think, you're trying to get through a territory you don't understand. And here's your option. No map. A map that's not so good but has some things about it. Or a great map. Well, obviously the great map is the thing you want. But the map that's something is way better than the map that's nothing. Plus, as you explore, because of your map, you can start to fill in the details. And you start to learn.

Starting point is 00:32:01 And you start to overcome stuff. And you start to master skills on your journey, right? Yeah, well, that's the other thing, too. It's like, let's say you aim at something and you develop some skills along the way. And then you get like a third of the way there and you think, oh, that's not for me. It's like, well, yeah, fair enough. But now you've still got the skills you developed. You know exactly why it's not for you now instead of vaguely.

Starting point is 00:32:23 So you don't have to keep going after that way. Exactly, exactly. And you have a rationale. And then you can bring that wisdom back, even though it's not perfect, you can bring it back to your next plan. And take responsibility for the next steps. Yes, yes. And so as you plan, you get better at planning, which is the crucial thing.

Starting point is 00:32:40 So then we say to people, take your positive vision and make it into eight statable goals. And then rank them in a hierarchy because you need to know what. Like a top goal and then incremental goals. Well, that's the other thing is break the goals into incremental goals so that you have a reasonable probability of succeeding. Because what you want to do, this is also what you want to do with a kid. You don't tell your kid, here's an impossible thing. Why don't you go out and fail? You say, here's something worth going after. Here's a step you could take that would push you beyond where you are, but that you also

Starting point is 00:33:16 have a reasonably high probability of succeeding at. They call that- Within a time frame. Within some time frame. That's the other thing. You have to parameterize it with regards to time frame. That's right. And that puts you to parameterize it with regards to time frame. That's right. And that puts you in the zone of proximal development. And that's a concept that was generated by a guy named Vygotsky. He was a Russian developmental psychologist and a smart one.

Starting point is 00:33:34 It's where the idea of the zone comes from, to be in the zone. And when you're in the zone, you're expanding your skills in a manner that's intrinsically rewarding because you're succeeding. And so you want to set, if you're good to yourself, you think, okay, I need to set a goal. But I need to set a goal that someone as stupid and useless as me could probably attain if they put some effort into it. Right. Then you've got it perfectly because it's not so high that it's grandiose or impossible that you fail necessarily and then justify your bitterness. It's like, well, I could do it. Well, because that happens to people.

Starting point is 00:34:09 Happens all the time. Yeah. I see this all the time. It's like, yes, exactly. Well, I set a goal and I didn't attain it, so I'm not going to set any more goals. Right. It's like, no, you set a goal that was inappropriate. For the time frame.

Starting point is 00:34:20 That's right. You didn't calibrate it properly. And you're playing a trick on yourself because you wanted to fail so that you could justify not having to try and being a victim yeah which isn't helpful you're still going to be a victim it's like there's no way out of that man so you know because life is this life is a challenge that in some sense can't be surmounted so there's no way out of your problem but there are certainly proper ways of dealing with it yeah and so you lay out those Those eight steps, right? Yep, yep.

Starting point is 00:34:47 Lay them out, and then the next thing is, okay, you need a rationale for them, because you're going to have doubts, and other people are going to put up obstacles. Is that a meaning you mean? Is that a meaning? A rationale means a meaning? Yeah, yeah. A justification. It's like, okay, so what sort of justification is a good justification for your goals?

Starting point is 00:35:03 It's easy. Why would it be good for you. Why would it be good for you? Why would it be good for your family if you attain that goal? Why would it be good for the broader community? Because if it's a good goal, it should be good for you. That's fine. But if it's a really good goal, it should be good for you in a way that's good for other people. Win-win-win. Yes, exactly. And if you're going to decide what your goals are, why not set up the ones that benefit the largest number of people simultaneously? Yes. If you can do that, you should start with your own concerns because you have to take care of yourself.

Starting point is 00:35:33 Basic needs first. Yes. Put your own oxygen mask on, then put your child's oxygen mask on. Yeah. Right. As you build up the basis of competence locally, you might develop enough skills so that you can expand that outward. And it also gives your goal a certain amount of nobility. And so if someone challenges you and says, well, why are you doing that? That seems stupid. You can say, I'm doing

Starting point is 00:35:54 that because it helps me take care of myself, but it benefits my family. And here's the reasons why. And this is the repercussions out into the broader community. And people who are putting up objections and doubts aren't armed to deal with that kind of response. And then when you have those doubts in your mind that plague you, which they, and go back to your reasons, go back to your reasons. Your why. That's right. Say, why am I doing this? Oh yeah, it's because, well, I have to take care of myself because otherwise I'm pathetic and useless and bitter and cruel. And then I'm going somewhere terrible. So that's a bad idea. And here's how it would help my family.

Starting point is 00:36:27 And here's how it would help the community. And that's a good enough set of reasons, unless I can think of better ones. Without better ones, that's good enough. Because I think the question comes back to someone could go down the rabbit hole and say, why, why am I doing this? And why is this meaningful for me? And I think a lot of people go back to why am I here in the first place yes why am I here what is the meaning of my life and is this real or is this

Starting point is 00:36:54 just some dream world well then people do go back to that and then they get stuck on that yeah like none of this even matters because why am I even here well the thing is is that that's a self-defeating set of propositions in some sense because the consequence of being Stuck there no reason you're stuck there to begin with is because you're not very happy about the fact that life is intrinsically Tied up with suffering because you wouldn't be asking that question to begin with Okay, so if you let that pull you in and take you down all it does is make the suffering worse It's not helpful and then the cascade that we talked about happens you suffer stupidly and pointlessly you get bitter you get cruel yeah you make everything worse it's like that's your answer is it you're going to make everything worse

Starting point is 00:37:33 it's bad enough you're going to make it worse mostly people won't do that consciously yes so you think well what's the alternative well here's one if you have a sufficiently noble purpose the suffering will justify itself i think that's empirically testable. And I do believe it's the case because I've watched people do very difficult things like people who work in palliative care wards. So all they're ever dealing with is pain and death. And they can do it. They get up in the morning, they go to work, and they take care of those people. They lose people on a weekly basis, and yet they can do it. And what that shows is that if you turn around and you confront the suffering voluntarily, you find out that you are way tougher than you think. It's not that life is better than you

Starting point is 00:38:15 think. Life is as harsh as you think. It might even be worse, but you are way tougher than you think if you turn around and confront it. And so then what you discover is that there's a spirit within you that can pursue something meaningful, that has the resilience and the strength to contend properly with the catastrophe of existence without becoming bitter. That's actually the central. And I would say that's one of the central themes of 12 Rules for Life is that make no mistake about it, like the first noble truth of Buddhism, life is suffering. This is true. And it's worse than that because it's suffering contaminated by malevolence. That's the baseline. And so that's very pessimistic. But the optimistic part is that you are so damn tough, you can actually not only deal with that, you can improve

Starting point is 00:39:00 it. It's like, hmm, oh, well, that's a horrible situation. But it turns out that I'm armed for the task. Well, that's a great thing for people to know. And I do believe, I think the fact that we're armed for the task is even more true than the fact that life is catastrophe contaminated by malevolence. We're stronger than things are terrible. So, and things are pretty terrible. So that means we're pretty damn strong. Wow. Yes. It's a very good thing to know. And it's not naive optimism. It's a very different thing.

Starting point is 00:39:29 It's like, no, things are terrible. They're brutal. And you are so damn tough, you can't believe it. There you have it, my friends. I hope you enjoyed this first part of a two-part series with Dr. Jordan Peterson. The next part will be coming up very soon. Make sure to share this with your friends, lewishouse.com slash 664. All about responsibility and meaning.

Starting point is 00:39:56 Again, when we do these things, we are able to live a greater life. When we take responsibility and we find meaning for our life. when we take responsibility and we find meaning for our life. The next part is all about pain and suffering and how to handle the pain and the suffering that we face in our life. There's some incredible research and studies that he's gone through and he's going to share with us in that specific episode. So make sure to share this with your friends, lewishouse.com slash 664. Connect on all the show notes there.

Starting point is 00:40:24 The full video interview is there as well, and all the information to his book and his online course as well about self-authoring. You're going to want to make sure to check both of these out. And remember, as Winston Churchill said, the price of greatness is responsibility. You have an opportunity to live a greater life when you find meaning and take responsibility for everything in your life. I'm excited about this. Make sure to share with your friends, lewishouse.com slash 664. Part two of this interview is coming out soon. Stay tuned. And as always, you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great. Thank you.

The School of Greatness - 664 Jordan Peterson on Responsibility and Meaning

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