The School of Greatness - 706 Embracing Death, Making Music, and Finding Purpose with Mike Posner

Episode Date: October 15, 2018

WORK ON YOURSELF FIRST, THEN SHARE YOUR LIGHT. Every athlete needs an offseason. They need time to train in different ways to strengthen their mind and body for a new year. The more you work on yourself, the more you’ll be able to give. Give your mind, your heart, and your soul the nurturing it needs to grow. That’s why I was so excited to speak with an artist who is on a journey to find inner peace in order to share his gifts: Mike Posner. Mike Posner is a singer-songwriter, poet, and record producer. Mike has co-written amazing hit songs like “Sugar” by Maroon 5, “Boyfriend” by Justin Bieber, and “Beneath Your Beautiful” by Labrinth. His debut album 31 Minutes to Takeoff includes the US Billboard Hot 100 singles “Cooler than Me” and “Please Don’t Go.” His 2017 book Tear Drops & Balloons is his first book of poetry. Mike has been through a lot of loss in recent years, and he uses it all to make music and poetry. Learn about Mike Posner’s journey and hear some of his new songs on Episode 706. Some Questions I Ask: What got you into songwriting? (6:10) Where do your melodies come from? (7:35) Did things change for you overnight after your big hit? (9:15) What makes a song really go big? (15:46) What’s the biggest struggle for an artist that has a hit? (18:30) Who is your personal favorite greatest musician? (21:36) What is the biggest lesson your dad taught you? (30:02) In This Episode You Will Learn: About Mike’s struggle with depression (18:46) What makes a song a hit (24:35) What the death of loved ones taught Mike (27:01) What keeps artists happy when they’re not touring (44:10) How Mike uses meditation to be more present (45:05)

This is episode number 706 with Mike Hosner. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Learning is not child's play. We cannot learn without pain. Aristotle. Today we have my friend Mike Posner, who is a singer-songwriter, record producer, and poet on the episode. He's known for releasing the popular studio albums

31 Minutes to Take Off and At Night Alone. And he's written songs for many popular artists like Justin Bieber, Labyrinth, Maroon 5, Nick Jonas, Big Sean, Nelly, Austin Mahone, and many others. He has earned numerous nominations for prestigious awards like Grammys and the MTV Video Music Awards. Today, we go through a wide range of emotions. We have a lot of fun while playing a song together. We play the guitar and sing together. We also talk about death and what death has taught him about the value of his own life. He shares deeper about

what losing his father recently and losing Avicii to suicide has taught him about life. We also talk about how happiness is not a product of what we do and what keeps artists happy when they are not selling records or touring. We go into if he thinks anyone could live a life without pain and suffering and so much more. He's a true artist. He's a true poet. And I think you're going to enjoy what he shares about art and happiness and finding your purpose through happiness in this episode. Welcome everybody to the School of Greatness podcast. I'm very excited today. We have my man, Mike Posner in the house.

Good to see you, man. Don't get the snap. How many songs have you written overall, you think? Hundreds? In my life? Yeah. Thousands. Thousands? Yeah, thousands.

Or maybe close to a hundred. No, like between 50 and 80 per album. Wow. Then how many come out? 10 to 12? 10. Yeah. Yeah. I think the next one is nine. Nine. It's just like, um, like brandishing a sword. It's like, and then flip it over and keep going. So yeah, we make an album. I'll basically go away for a year or two, write all these songs, and then try to pick the best ones to produce out and record. So it'll be like 15 to 20 of those.

And then we'll put those on a whiteboard and record. So it'll be like 15 to 20 of those. And then we'll put those on a whiteboard and go, at that point, they're all good. Sure. But you're just like, these ones are a little better. And so you're getting rid of another like six. Wow. Hopefully you have a project that's just like.

How many albums now? I'm getting ready to release my third solo album. Studio album. I got a few like live albums and poetry albums and I have a band, Mansions. And then I have some albums I recorded that never came out. Really? Got shelved and stuff when I was cold, business, political stuff. Sure. But this will be my third studio album.

What got you into songwriting in the first place? And singing music? When I was a little kid, like eight years old, I loved hip hop. My big cousins rapped, and my buddies, and all the kids I thought were cool in school, they all listened to hip hop. And I wanted to try freestyling. And so I remember one time we had,

me and my buddies, Ronnie Posey and Aaron Webster, we all tried freestyling. We had like, found some CDs that had music on with no words. And we all tried freestyling over them. And I remember they thought that,

oh, that was fun. And I thought, I'm never going to stop. I'm going to get great at that. How old were you? I was like eight. Freestyling at eight? Yeah, and I just never stopped.

Are you a better freestyler or are you better at writing a song? My freestyle skills are pretty rusty now, though I still do it sometimes. And I kind of freestyle songs now. So I'd say now at this point, writing songs, I'm better. But it's not really a fair question because freestyles go into songwriting a lot. A lot of times songwriting starts with freestyling. You can make an argument that all songs start with a freestyle. It's like a melody pops up. Where does that come from? You didn't plan out to have that melody pop in your head. It just did.

So when something comes in your mind, where does it come from? Is it usually something else you're watching or a deep conversation or something you see on TV where something starts to play in your mind? Well, that's the million-dollar question. How does it work for you? I mean, do you feel like you are the author of your thoughts, or do they just pop in your head? I think I'm inspired by things that I see or things that I'm lacking. So I have a desire for something or there's a pain or a need based on something I want.

And then based on that lack of feeling, that pain or that suffering or that desire to change something in my life, then I start to unlock this creativity of like, okay, what would that look like? What would that feel like? Where's an example of this in the world that represents what I want? Or I'll lean into music or art or dance to start to see what I can unlock. And I think that's at least how I do it. I think that does hold up because deep down there I want songs to come out so there is that intention there.

But you hear a lot of the great songwriters, they say, I'm not doing it. It's just coming through them or what? That's what they say, you know? And it feels like that sometimes. It's like, do I really deserve credit for this melody that popped away like I feel like I'm just recording it I'm repeating it you know yeah this was an interesting thing you know cuz I part of my ego wants to take a lot of credit for it like I'm great amazing things I've done but I don't know if I'm really

doing them it's just that have these there's thoughts on on some level yeah yeah and you've had a you've had a lot of success over your career but when abiza came out and we were talking just before when someone remixed it and it kind of blew up there was you did your life change after that moment from what you were doing for years before with touring and having you know other successes but but did things really change after that big hit or did it kind of stay the same for you? So the Ibiza was my second big hit that I sang. I had some others that I've written for other people, but my first big hit was a song called Cooler Than Me in 2010.

How's it go? My first big hit was a song called Cooler Than Me in 2010. How's it go? If I could write you a song to make you fall in love, I would already have you up under my arm. I used to fall in my tree. I like that song. Thank you. Did you sing that song?

Yeah, I sang that song. Okay, cool. 2010. Yeah, and I wrote it in my dorm. That was a big hit. Yeah, I wrote it in my dorm, you know, when I was in college and wrote it in my that was a big hit yeah i wrote in my dorm you know it's when i was in college and recorded in my dorm and put it out and it was my first single it was my first single so i thought oh so what happens when you put singles out you just make a ton of money and

everyone tells you you're great you were in your dorm you're in college yeah about duke right correct so you just came out 21 years old, had this hit. Put it out online or how did it come out? I put it out online first, the original version, and there was a remix also. The original version was me and Big Sean, a lot of people don't realize. So I came up in Big Sean's crew for a while, just in his entourage. I put this song out and it sort of blew up online in a sort of a culty way. Then after I had that song out for a while, I put a whole mixtape out, a whole free album. Then that kind of circulated even more.

I started getting offers for record deals and stuff. Like finals week, junior year, I had flown to New York like a bunch of times to take meetings and whatnot. And I was like really trying to finish finals. No way. And my manager called and he's like, you got to go back to New York.

I was like, no, I need to write this paper or else I'm going to fail. He was like, you got to go back to New York. Jay-Z wants to meet you. Shut up. 2010, you're 21. This New York. Jay-Z wants to meet you. Shut up. 2010, you're 21. This is 2009. Jay-Z wants to meet you.

So it was before the song blew up. It's just online a little bit. It started to get a little buzz online. Correct. Jay-Z wants to meet you. Jay-Z wants to meet me. I thought I would go there and then they'd be like, listen, Jay got busy, we're sorry.

That's what I thought so i didn't tell anyone i just left right i'm like jay-z wants to meet me no i left campus went to the airport flew to new york go to the office and then like just sort of waiting around and they're like okay he'll see you now and i was like oh he's really here yeah i had my little laptop, you know, with, like, my sticker on the back, you know. Duke University. Correct, correct. And I walk in the office, a gorgeous office, and there's Jay-Z. He was like, what's up, man?

I was like, what's up? What's up? So he had, like, a little speaker system. You know, I went and, like, tried to plug my computer into it and fumbled the aux cord and finally played the song, Cooler Than Me, and he just started nodding his head real hard. I could tell he was just loving it. We spent two hours with Jay-Z talking, and at the end of the meeting, he goes to his partner at the time he was

like so what do we do now and his partner said we do a deal and he's like okay we'll be in touch Wow so I went back to Duke and I went back to the library I'm writing this paper and I checked my email and there's a offer from Roc Nation for a record deal needlessless to say, I didn't do the best job on that paper. It was the only C I ever got because I was quite excited. And I ended up not signing to Jay-Z for a myriad of reasons. I signed to J Records, which is a subsidiary of Sony. Long story short, man, I made my first album,

and there was a remix done of Cooler Than Me that my homie Giga Mesh did. And that remix blew up. And like I said, I got totally jaded by it. I thought, that's what happens. That's what happens. You put out a song. Yeah, I'm one for one. I'm one for one.

So I will, yeah, everything I do will be a hit. I put out my next song, and it did pretty well, but not as well. I put out the next song and did a little worse. A little less. And then it kept going like that. No way. And just like the graph was just going from top left to bottom right, like the red line, you know? And finally to the point where a few years later, I was just ice cold.

And I had really nothing to do. There was no, my calendar was empty. And I had made my money and I had a house in the Hollywood Hills and had a Porsche and just nothing to do. You were like 23, 24. do you're like 23 24. yeah like 2024 i thought what what now that's when i wrote i took a pill in the visa it was about that because everyone loves talking about that rise up and what it's like on that mountaintop or what they want you to think it's

like on the mountaintop but i thought it was interesting what happens after you fall off. Once you have the big success and you start to go backwards, how do you, what does that feel like? I never heard people tell that side of the story in music that much. So I thought it was cool if I wrote about that. So I wrote that song, and there's a lyric in the second verse. I'm just a singer who already blew a shot. I get along with old timers

because my name's a reminder of a pop song people forgot. Wow. And a big ironic thing was that writing those lines gave me another shot, which I wasn't really asking for, but I got it anyways, because that song blew up as well. Do you think because it was real or because of the timing of it or because of the partnerships

you had or why do you think that took off? When all you write thousands of songs a year and why didn't the other ones take off? What makes a song really go big? No one really knows.

No one really knows because even the greatest writers or the most, the guys with the most hits ever, even more than me like Max Martin, where they still write tons of songs that aren't hits. So even no one has this formula. If there was a formula, everyone would be using it. So I think it's all those things that you listed.

The fact that, you know, I was being honest in the song, make people connect to it. Yeah, I think so. Did the remix and the production that the guys did on it help? Yeah. Did my connections help? Yeah. All that stuff went into it. It's just, I don't know.

I don't know. All that stuff went to it. It's just, I don't know. I don't know. And every time I tried it, when I was younger, I would try to make something that would be popular. It would never work. When I just do what I think is cool to me. Sometimes, not always, but sometimes, the whole world seems to agree.

I don't know. That's a good lyric right there. When I do something that's cool to me, sometimes the world agrees. Yeah. That's a good line. Sometimes, though. Not every time. Not every time.

Not every time. You've got to be prepared for that. That's the struggle of an artist. When they do something they fully believe in and they love and then no one else cares, it's hard to take that rejection i think right yeah because you've written thousands of songs and you know maybe 20 people like right or people sing or people you know it's like well mostly yeah most people know me for those two songs those two songs you know and i make i make albums you know as my like i'm a student of the album. So what I do during my day, I listen to Rolling Stone top 500 albums.

And I try to make albums that good. But most people just know those two songs. Which, I'm not angry at them. But it's not the whole picture. Because the album really tells a full story, I'm assuming, for you. It's an experiential thing. I listen to a lot of your new album that comes out in January. Correct. January, and you're going to be releasing singles coming up to that.

Mm-hmm. But it's a full book, and there's chapters to the book that tell a story. Yeah. Right? Yeah, and you spend months on the transitions and the order of the chapters. Mm-hmm. Making an album is a funny job because you're writing a book is a great metaphor, but you also need each chapter to be able to stand on its own and be a great short story.

To be a hit. You don't need every song to be a hit. You need a couple chapters to potentially be a hit. Hopefully. It could be a standalone, yeah. Yeah. Wow. What's the biggest struggle for an artist that's got a hit and hasn't come back?

You've made the money. You've got the recognition. You've got the relationships. But your work isn't being recognized. What was the biggest struggle for you? Did you face depression or any anxiety from that? Yeah, I faced depression starting before all that. In high school, growing up in Michigan,

it'd just be gray and dark all the time. I'd go to school before the sun was up and I would play sports. I'd play basketball and I'd come home and the sun was down already. And I just remember feeling like, what's the point of this? None of this matters None of this matters. Like, nothing matters.

And I don't care about anything. And I still will feel that sometimes. Then I used to feel it, like, for extended periods of time. I'll feel that for a day or something now. So I still grapple with that. Because I'll have these big projects I started, and I'll have some days where I'm like, I don't care about this. Yeah. At all.

And I got like people working on it and stuff. If you create a project, what makes you not care about it anymore? I don't know. I think I get in a mood sometimes where I don't care about anything. Life. Yeah, I just like feel low energy. Why is that? I spend a lot of time trying to figure that out.

You seem like a happy guy. I think I am most of the time. But I don't want to sit in your chair and say, I always feel happy because that's not real. There's enough people in the world that do that and pretend like

I got the answer. No, I really got the full answer you know. Everyone feels some sort of down negativity sometimes I believe. Do you think a musician or an artist can be truly can reach the masses with their art without feeling a sense of pain or suffering or depression at some point in their life well i don't know if anyone can live a life without feeling pain or suffering do you i think we all need to go through challenges can you skate through though like even the guys that have the trust one like yeah there's always fund, there's suffering in their life.

At some point, they didn't get what they wanted or they got what they didn't want and they felt suffering. Everyone feels it. So Werner Herzog says the poet must not avert his eyes. What's that mean? It means that if you're a real artist, you're looking at the beautiful and the divine things in life, and you're helping people see them. But you're also looking at the ghastly and the disgusting, and you're being honest about it. If an artist is not in touch, in my opinion, with both those things, they're not a real artist. And people are going to feel that. They're going to recognize it. It's not going to be real. It's not going to be real.

Who's the greatest musician in your mind? Personal favorite. I don't know. I got so many favorites. Top three. I think the greatest songwriter is Bob Dylan. Because all my other favorite songwriters listen they all say he's the best and they're so influenced by him so he kind of got it what is it about him that makes him so great just like once in a generation talent he's got like an unmistakable voice really I mean his writing voice he also has an unmistakable singing voice. But man, you just can go so deep with this stuff. I mean you can just, there's just layers upon layers in the imagery and the symbolism and the metaphors.

It's just like, some of the stuff you listen to, you go, how did he write, how did he do that? What about someone in our generation who's someone you really look up to right now who's either well known or on the up and up yeah my favorite songwriters is a guy he's a friend of mine now but i was a fan first named taylor goldsmith he's in a band called dawes we call it pen game his pen game is just off the charts off the charts he has a song called if off the charts. He has a song called, if anyone wants to check it out, a song called A Little Bit of Everything. And I'd recommend

listening to it twice because most people when they hear it, myself included, when you hear a song, on the first listen you hear the melody, you hear the textures and some words. And on the second, third listen, you start to hear the words. What makes him special is his lyrics. And second listen, you might be in tears. Him.

And then there's another guy named Connor Oberst who's in a band called Bright Eyes. And he's sort of the auteur of that band. And his lyrics are just crazy, man. They are just crazy. That's cool. So yeah, I recommend a song by him.

First Day of My Life by Bright Eyes. That song I've sung at weddings for friends and I've sung at funerals. Wow. That's how good that song is. Amazing. Amazing. What about when you started getting more successful? Funerals. Wow. That's how good that song is. Amazing. Amazing.

What about when you started getting more successful? Did you feel like it was easier to make deep, meaningful relationships, or is it harder once you create that kind of fame for yourself in an industry? It can be harder. And this actually, I think I gave sort of a long, meandering rant to your last question, and I didn't really answer it. But I think this answer sort of answers both, which is when you have a hit song or any sort of work you do that becomes very popular, people view you through the lens of that work. you through the lens of that work. So in my case, it's I took a pill and Ibiza, which is a sad song. It's right in the chorus. All I know is sad songs. So people assume that they come in contact with that before they come in contact with me. It's not necessarily, like you say, you seem like a happy guy. Usually I am a happy guy.

I would say more than half the time I feel good. I wrote that song expressing some sadness that I was feeling. It's a good place for me to put my sadness. Productive place. Yeah, or a good place to put your anger and sadness in the song. Express that. So I think that makes it hard because people have an idea of you before they meet you. And that gets in the way of your art too. Sometimes you start overthinking,

oh, everyone loves me for being the sad guy. So maybe I should keep doing that. Got to be real careful with that because then you're not, you're basically doing an imitation of your former self, you know. You're not evolving. You're not evolving. NQ, who you've had on the show, who's a friend of both of ours, he always says art is alchemy. I don't know if he said it on your show, but he says it all the time. He said art is alchemy.

So you're changing, you're transforming your suffering into something beautiful. And hopefully that adds something to other people's lives when they come in contact with that beauty. But if you're dramatizing or victimizing yourself, you're not alchemizing your suffering. You're just making more of it. And so you always want to be cognizant of that. Am I creating more beauty or more suffering in the world? Yeah. Well, Beezer was bringing beauty to people, right? It was kind of bringing hope or inspiration for people maybe in a sad place.

I hope so. You know, the funny thing is that music is... the song sounds happy. So a lot of times they play it in clubs and people are dancing. They have joyful moments to it. And they're having the out of my suffering. Even though the lyrics might be sad, it's a dance song. Yeah. Yeah.

Which is beautiful. It's beautiful because they're having a beautiful moment, a positive experience out of my pain, my pain at that time. And that's all you can ask for as an artist. Yeah. You know, that's the goal. Wow. What about, what has death taught you about the value of your life? I don't think you can live a good life if you're pretending you're not going to have a death.

And for me, the key is keeping death on my shoulder. We all learn that lesson when someone dies. And if you haven't had someone close die, you will. You can't escape it. So for me, it was my father a year and a half ago and then Avicii this year you know and then each time there's a silver lining to it which is one when you miss something you had something to miss in the first place. So if you can shift your attention away from the missing to gratitude because I had something in the first place. So let's give a concrete example of that.

I had a father and a damn good one for 29 years. And I got a lot of friends in Detroit that either don't know their fathers or the father was in their life or he has a limited role in their life. And I had a full-on father for 29 years. So he's dead now. But I'm grateful I had him for 29 years. And I'm not going to complain that he's not here for 30 when my homie didn't have one at all. I'm just not. I'm grateful I had that. So there's that. There's that gratitude that you can shift back to relatively easily

when you're feeling grief. In addition, there's this beautiful reminder of your own mortality. That's what I believe why we don't like death so much is because when someone dies, it's because it reminds us we're going to die. And that scares us, but it's actually a really great thing. It's a really great thing, and I think we should try to keep death on our shoulder because it makes you live a good life. And it makes you, for me, remind me, hey, you know all that shit you have a list of

that you want to do one day? You should probably start doing it now. Yeah, and most of us have a list you know i would say 98 percent of people i hear this have two lists they got the list of the shit they have to do and then a list of the stuff they want to do when they're done doing what they have to do and a lot of times at least it was the case for me, there was really no reason I couldn't start doing the stuff I wanted to do. And I did, and I'm trying to keep doing that. But it's easy to forget.

So I say you got to keep death on your shoulder. What was the biggest lesson your dad taught you? My dad used to always say there's two H's, health and happiness, health and happiness. And a lot of the lessons that he would, he'd say the same stuff where I remember all his words, but I didn't really get it until now. And some stuff I'm still getting. I remember my dad, I asked him once, what are your goals? He goes, I don't have any. I have everything I want. I love your mother. I just sit out on the porch. I feel I have everything I want. I just sit on the porch.

I feel I have everything I want. And at the time, I couldn't hear him because I suspect 90% of the people you have on, I'm like trying to win all the time doing stuff. I'm like creating goals and then chasing them down. And there's nothing wrong with that. And there's nothing wrong with that, but he was just in a totally different headspace and living life with a totally different paradigm, which was like, I'm content. I was at a monastery this summer. I did a retreat in solitude, and I was reading this book by Thich Nhat Hanh there. And there's something I'm paraphrasing some of the page, which was, I'm happy in this moment and I don't ask for anything in addition to make me more happy. I'm

content with this moment. And it was the same, like here's this monk, he's saying the same thing as my dad, you know, took me some years to get that. You think you'd be happy if you didn't keep writing songs and keep putting that out there? The more I live, the more I'm starting to believe that happiness is not a product of what I do. That's maybe the biggest lesson is we think if we changed our outside circumstances, like if I get my life just right and all the stuff around me just right, the right job, the right amount of money, the right romantic partner, then I'll be happy. But I'm starting to really believe it goes the other way around,

which is if I can figure out how to be happy regardless of what's going on or what I'm doing outwardly, all that stuff works itself out. And a lot of times, it just happens with no effort. Right, yeah. The thing you were working so hard, efforting towards just kind of falls into place. Did your dad pass suddenly?

So I'm riding the wave of Ibiza. Crushing it. I'm crushing it. Top song. I'm touring all over the world. It's the number one song, right? It was number one song on the radio here. There's different charts.

On Billboard, it wasn't number one. I don't know how high it got on there. I try not to pitch. That's pretty good. But they tell you when you get a number one. I don't know how high it got on there. I try not to pay attention. That's pretty good. But they tell you when you get a number one. Yeah, they give you a plaque or something. Yeah, they make a big deal out of it. Sure.

But it was up there. It was big for a year. It was big. It was big. And I know now it's the number 10 song on Spotify ever, which is crazy. It's crazy. And I'm sure more big songs, it'll go down.

But right now it's number 10. That's the thing about number ones is they all go down. At some point another number one comes, every single one in history. So I'm riding this way. I'm touring. I'm touring other countries. My band is on point. We're like really, we're really killing shows. And my mom calls and my dad had been acting funny. Like he'd been forgetting stuff. He was getting lost. And she called and said, they found a tumor the size of a tangerine in dad's forehead, and they're going to take it out tomorrow.

So I got on the plane and took the red-eye to Detroit. I was living in LA at the time. I had the car, the house, and the hills, the whole thing. I flew to Detroit. I slept for like a few hours. I got there and went to the hospital with my mom. And they were operating on my dad at that time. And so we were just waiting. She hadn't talked to him yet. I saw my dad right before.

He went in. He went in. They won't give you any water right before you get sick because you need to be dehydrated for some reason. I remember he kept asking for water. And you know, they put him under and he went in. And then I went to sleep, because they were going to like,

operate on him for like a bunch of hours. You know, I came back to the hospital and I'm waiting with my mom, a bunch of my dad's friends are there. And we're all waiting to see if it's cancerous if the tumor is cancerous or it's just a tumor that wasn't count as a word fat benign i don't know yeah i'm not sure and so the doctor came out and basically i'm holding my mom's hand you know and she's like he has glioblastoma just doctor talk because we like Googling it and stuff.

That's a fancy word for it. He has brain cancer. Showing home to my mom's hand, she just starts crying. You know, she's looking at me. I'm like, I kind of want to cry, but I'm not going to because I'm trying to be there for her. I basically just moved back to Detroit. I sold my house. I just stayed there.

And then me and my sister would take turns. She lives in New Orleans, so she'd come up. I'd go do shows. She'd go back to New Orleans. She's an attorney there. She'd work, and then I'd come home. Man, it was, if you're going to have a death, he had the best one. He was home.

He wasn't really in pain. We all got to say goodbye. Wow. How long after? Ten months. Ten months. Ten months. So you lived there for ten months, essentially, off and on?

Correct. Correct. Yeah. And he died January 11, 2017. And then it was just cold, and I was in Detroit. And I was like— It's the worst time to be in Michigan. I was like, I got to leave.

Yeah. I've sort of been's the worst time to be in Michigan. I was like, I got to leave. Yeah. And I've sort of been like on the run since. Wow. So your dad passed away in January 2017. You moved out of there. You've been on the run. Do you feel at peace about everything? Or do you feel like you still need closure with things?

So man, a lot of times, that's really a year and a half ago. I went to Venice. I say on the run. More stuff happened. I moved to Venice. And then Avicii passed away. When was this? A few months ago, right? Correct. It was so sad, man. Did you know him? Yeah, I worked with Avicii for a lot of years. Was the song Ibiza with him? It wasn't with him, but it was about, I mentioned him in it. It wasn't all was all about him basically avicii always liked he always liked my stuff so he like way back before he had levels he actually sent me levels

he was like can you write a song levels is gosh he was a hit master he was was. Those Swedish guys, they got... They're freaks, man. We always say something in the water with them because their sense of melody seems to be... Unbelievable. ...like better than everyone else. Did you write a song with him or work on any songs? Yeah, a bunch over the years.

Most of them never came out. Oh, man. But they're working on a posthumous album for him. So I send in all my stuff I've done over the years. I don't know if it'll make it or not. But he was like me. He would do a million songs and then 10 would make it. I watched his documentary.

I don't know if you saw this. I haven't watched it. I heard it's heartbreaking though. It's amazing to watch behind the scenes, but it's heartbreaking because the guy was touring like 300 stops a year and he hated it the anxiety he had i don't know if you ever saw him but him just showing it how much he's like nervous before every event yeah and i it sucks i wish he would have been able to someone would have been able to help him or create a structure where he could get over that nerves and anxiety that he felt because that's really what drove him to the alcohol and the drugs and to kind of relax.

Yeah. And the pressure of like, man, but I'm just so good. And all these hits that come out when people want to see me. And there's so much money involved in this and that. But after, what, four or five years, he was like, I'm retiring. I'm quitting. Right. And I don't know how.

And then it was just kind of like he retired. He started to get better, but then got worse or something, right? I don't know how. And then it was just kind of like he retired. He started to get better, but then got worse or something, right? I don't know. I mean, I worked with him like a month before he passed away. No way. Yeah, I went to his house. You're in L.A.? In L.A.

How did he seem? He seemed normal. He seemed okay, relaxed? To me, but I wasn't super close with him. I'd work with him like once a year. For a couple days, three days or something. A couple days. That's it.

And we'd write a song. But man, it was like, it seemed normal. We had two rooms going. So like two sessions, you know, people were both working on his stuff. So we'd be writing a song in one room. He'd be in the other room with other people. And they had a chef there. It seemed like everyone was kind of eating healthy and stuff.

And I don't know, man. And I couldn't believe it. A month later. I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it. You know? He seemed positive. He was able to clear eyes, everything, right?

Was he drinking or no? No. No. But that doesn't mean he wouldn't drink at night. I have no idea. I have no idea. He was able to clear eyes, everything, right? Was he drinking or no? No, no. But that doesn't mean he wasn't drinking at night. I have no idea. I have no idea. But it was shocking to me, you know. It was shocking to me.

And it made me feel grateful for, I guess, just like the foundation I have in my family. You know, I talked to my mom. She was like, you know, I've always been worried about you. To me, it was like, I always felt pretty secure, like, you know, I have my ups and downs and whatnot. But I never really got into drugs. And actually, I'm like pretty darn straight edge. Like, I don't drink or smoke. You know, you always hear those stories, like,

stars that burn out, you know, like our hero, Jimi Hendrix, Kurt Cobain. It was like when I was a kid, but I never knew any of my friends, you know. Passed away until him. He was, what, 27? I think so. That's what they age 27, man. A lot of Amy Winehouse, a lot of these people are 27.

Yeah. I think some people play into it now, too, which is sad. I know at least one person that does that. Really? Yeah. How old are you? I'm 30, man. You got over the hump.

I made it. I'll be 31 February 12th. What was the lesson you took away when Avicii passed away? How did that hit for you? It was the same thing. It was a reminder because it's easy to forget. We're not supposed to talk about death. And I'm glad you asked the question because it's not a usual question, but it's a taboo subject in our culture. If I mention it from my mom, she's like, don't talk about that. So it's just easy. It was a reminder.

You're going to die too. What are you here for? How are you going to use your time now? Are you just going to do like the normal things that you're supposed to do that people tell you you should? Are you going to create the life you want? What's your purpose? I think to share my gifts. I think I do have a gift.

I don't think it share my gifts. I think I do have a gift. Now, I don't know. I don't think it's just natural. I think it's a gift now because I just did it a lot. But I'm definitely the best I've ever been at music right now. Wow. So I think to share that. And, you know, the honest answer, more than that, as I was saying that, it didn't feel totally authentic to me.

What's the authentic answer? I think it's to find peace in myself and be that when I'm with people. When I'm with you or doing an interview with you or whoever I'm with, it's to find my own happiness, my own peace, and then share that. I feel like I'm on two journeys right now. There's one journey where I'm putting the album out, doing interviews, I'm going to impress promo mode, I'll go on TV and whatnot. But I'm also on an inner journey, like this summer where I spent 12 days in solitude at the monastery or I just did this Vipassana meditation retreat and it kicked my butt. And those kind of see or like I'm a meditator, so I meditate every day.

And that kind of seems like a selfish thing, but it's not. I'm trying to clean up my own mind. I'm trying to clean up all my judgments and my jealousy and my anger. I'm trying to clean all that up so that I can give the gift of my peace, my happiness to the world. And that gets into my music, that gets into my interviews, that gets into my phone calls, and it gets into my relationships. And it just echoes out, you know, and I think that is the highest thing, my highest goal, to do that. To clean up my own shit and then share my own light. What's your biggest challenge you face right now in your own life?

Biggest challenge right now is as I get busier maintaining that. It's a lot easier to be a quantumist and peaceful at the monastery. When there's nothing happening. Than it is to do it when you have the hit and you're touring. How do you maintain that peace and balance when you're touring every day, six months a year? You're writing new songs, you're doing press, everyone wants you. How do you do that?

I mean, one is your routine, right? So I had to carve out very clearly with my team, my record label, hey, look, I sleep eight hours a day. I meditate twice a day. I eat this much. I exercise this much. So I have at least this. That's just to give me a shot.

Without doing that, I don't even have a shot to stay economist. You know what I mean? So I just give me a shot. And then, you know, it's a practice. So as I'm going through the day, not only am I doing all this stuff, but I'm trying to have awareness that I am doing it. So I try to keep awareness in some part of my body all day long. Do I forget? Yeah, all the time.

But I'm trying to stay aware, stay present as much as I can. When I spent this time in solitude this summer, I realized how addicted I am to thinking. It's just the brain just going all day long. So if I look at a flower, usually my brain's going, oh, that's a rose. This is the last time you saw a rose. I wonder if it smells good. Smell it.

It doesn't smell as good as it lasts. There's a whole narrative going along between the rose and I. And on retreats, at times I was able to quiet my mind. I'm meditating a lot. Those days I'm meditating like five to seven hours a day. You know, I'm just alone. That's all I'm doing. And I'd have moments where I would see a flower or hear a bird sing or see the moon with no narrative. And it's just cripplingly beautiful. It just brings me to tears because that screen, that narrative, that's usually between reality and I wasn't there, you know? And so, you know, you're doing that with a flower.

You better believe you're doing that with other people you know you see a person even if you don't know you got a whole narrative running about them and it's worse with people you know the more history you have with someone the more you do that so to me it's a it's a practice or i sort of try to make a game out of it how can i just be with people and when they're speaking to me, it's a practice or I sort of try to make a game out of it. How can I just be with people? And when they're speaking to me, can I listen to them and not listening to what the voice in my head is saying about what they're saying? Right. So in Buddhism, they call that deep listening or compassionate listening. And that's a rare thing.

And when someone's listening to you that way, you know it, you feel it and you feel heard. So I was trying to do that., you know it. You feel it. And you feel heard. So I'm just trying to do that. I'm a novice. I'm a novice. But I've done it at times and it feels good. That's great, man. What's a song off of your new album? Can you play one for us?

Yeah. Can you play us something? Yeah. With the guitar? Or if you want a different chair or whatever you want. I like to stand. Yeah, do your thing. I think I'll buy a gun and blame it on my hometown It's so cold in the deep

She asks me if I think I'll ever see her again I say hopefully Maybe that's how it's supposed to be Maybe that's how it's supposed to be

My heroes all died young, they hung themselves with fame, and these lunatics molded me. I've got a tattoo, it's a joke I keep a secret. I need everyone to notice me. But maybe that's how it's supposed to be Maybe that's how it's supposed to be Maybe that's how it's supposed to be Maybe that's how it's supposed to be I think I'll die young With all my broken dreams I've got it figured out This is the golden key

Everything is how it's supposed to be I think this is how it's supposed to be I think this is how it's supposed to be We messed it all up now the world is getting warmer Soon L.A. will be out at open sea Meanwhile I'm falling down my heart is getting colder I hurt everyone close to me But maybe that's how it's supposed to be Maybe that's how it's supposed to be

Maybe that's how it's supposed to be Maybe that's how it's supposed to be. Maybe that's how it's supposed to be. I think I'll die young. With all my broken dreams. I've got it figured out. This is the golden key. I've got it figured out This is the golden key The day my daddy died

I was down the street I lost my only friend People don't grow on trees But I think that's the way it's supposed to be Everything is how it's supposed to be I think this is how it's supposed to be My man. I like that jazz chord at the end. Thank you. It's clean, man.

Major seven. Is that what it is? Major seven? Major seven. Yeah, I don't know enough about music, but I can play some campfire songs, you know? Yeah? I can get around in the bonfire, you know what I mean? I used to play a lot back in the day.

I mean, a lot of pop songs I can play if I have the chords, but let me see. Let me see this thing. I haven't played in a long time, though. I really like Joni Mitchell a lot. You do, man. I just got into her. Oh, my gosh. I really like Joni Mitchell a lot. You do, man. I really like Joni Mitchell. I just got into her. Oh my gosh.

I used to sing a song, I don't know if I can play it anymore, but. Which song? Case of You. Oh, good. Case of You is amazing. My sister Heidi was singing. Is it old blue?

I think so. No. Forget how the rest goes. But I like listening to you. He's doing the most of the thing you're doing. Thank you. Yeah, it's been a while, man. A little rusty. We nailed it. We did something. She liked it.

It was cool, man. Purple Rain. Oh. Do you sing Purple Rain ever? I've never sang it before. Never sang it before? Prince? I've heard it, but I've never sang it before.

Oh man, you'd be amazing at that. You could hit those notes. Man, I'm trying to think of songs I know. What can I sing with him? I might know another song of his. Port Pirates, yeah, they're our vibe Tore up in the merchant ships Minutes after they took our hide From the bottomless pit But my hand was made strong

By the hand of the Almighty We flower in this generation And go to be triumphant So won't you help to sing the CD These songs of freedom So won't you help to sing the CD? These songs of freedom Is all I ever have Redemption soul Redemption soul

And it hangs on me Back to the verse Then it hangs on me. Back to the verse. Emancipate yourself from mental slavery. None but ourselves can free our mind. Have no fear for atomic energy. None of them can stop the tide. How long will they kill our brothers while we stand

aside and look Some say it's just a pot of pain They got to fulfill the book Won't you help to sing These

souls of freedom Redemption There goes the bridge E minor and then C D Hangs out Then back to verse Emancipate yourself from mental slavery None but ourselves could be our minds And back to verse. they kill our projects while we stand aside and look ooh, some say it's just a part of it

we've got to fulfill the book but won't you help to save these souls of freedom cause all I ever have. Redemption's all.

My man, that was fun, man. I haven't played in a long time. That's fun. A song like that I can play. I can see you ripping the camera. You know what I mean? It used to be, it was probably like eight years ago when I'd play I can see you ripping the camera you know what I mean it used to be it was probably like 8 years ago

when I'd play though like often I remember I taught myself my freshman year of college I taught myself yeah you did cause I where'd you go to school

I went to a bunch of different schools but I went to a school a small liberal arts school in Illinois called Principia College and I went to a school in Columbus, Ohio

called Capital University but my brother is the number one jazz violinist in the world so I grew up called Principia College. And I went to a school in Columbus, Ohio called Capital University. But my brother is the number one jazz violinist in the world. So I grew up listening to him play jazz violin and feeling like I was ignorant until I learned an instrument because I didn't know an instrument. And I remember, what did I learn? Gosh, I don't even know how to play it anymore. I can't remember any of this stuff.

I learned, I never even really know how to play it anymore. I can't remember any of this stuff. I learned I never even really learned how to play it that well. Gosh. By Kansas. What was like the love song by Kansas? Oh, Dust in the Wind I think I learned. Dust in the Wind. Do you know how to play it? Nope.

I can't remember how to do it. You've been playing it longer than me. I can't remember. I'm getting really mixed up now. But I used to learn these love songs and campfire songs and anything I could at that time. Once I learned four chords, I was like, oh, you can play lots of stuff. But originally, I just wanted to learn songs. And I was like, oh, you can play lots of stuff. But originally, I just wanted to learn songs. And I was like, oh, okay, let me get into this a little more.

But I was never good enough with like the finger stuff or like playing solos. I tried blues chords, and I just could never really get it. And my voice wasn't good enough to be like, if I could really sing, then maybe I'd get more into it. You could learn that too. It's hard, man. I know. I was in choir for years, but I never really sing, then maybe I'd get more into it. You could learn that, too. It's hard, man. I know.

I was in choir for years, but I never really got that good. I can hit on pitch, but I just never sounded good. Anyways, dude, this was awesome, man. Thank you, man. I appreciate it, man. Thank you for having me on. It's a real honor. I got a couple final questions for you.

Please. What's the lyric, if you had one message, if you could only sing one more song to the world, let's say this is your last moment many years from now, but it's your last day, you know it's your last day, you've done everything you want to do in your life. You've written all the songs, you've had all the experiences, you've connected with all the people, you've traveled,

but you can only share one phrase of a song. It could be a chorus. It could be like... Does it have to be mine? It could be yours or it could be someone else's. What would be the line or the sentence that you would share that you'd want the world to be your last song that you would sing of a piece of a song? So for me, I've thought about this a lot. Wow. I haven't written that song for me yet. But the song I would sing is the one we just played, Redemption Song. That's tied for my favorite song ever.

And the line from it would be, ever and the line from it would be emancipate yourself from mental slavery none but ourselves can free our mind you know this is all stuff we're talking about before and it's not it's not that line applies to anyone to everyone as soon as you get caught up in a concept, you know, you're trapped, you're a slave to that concept. So that would be it. That song to me is like, it's a perfect song. And I remember listening to that song a few years ago and thinking to myself, I know all these words, They're all in my vocabulary.

I can play all the chords. I can hit all the notes. So why ain't I write a song that good yet? And it's because I had to do that inner work that I'm doing now. And so the deeper I go, the further I go inside inside i think the closer i get to my redemption song that's cool man that's real cool i like i like that you're doing the work on yourself and taking time off to really reflect more and give your mind and your heart and your soul the nurturing and the the food that it needs to thrive and grow.

That's how I think it's a direct. That's what I'm always telling my manager. He's like, you're taking all this time. I'm like, it's not off, though. It's not off. I have to do it. Every athlete needs an off season where they reflect, train in different ways to strengthen their body and their mind and get stronger for the next season.

So this is a question I ask everyone at the end. It's called the three truths. Based on everything you've learned in your life and experiences, imagine all the songs you've written you've got to take with you. No one has access to them anymore. All your words, you've put it out there, but now you've got to take with you no one has access to them anymore okay all your words you've put it out there but now you've got to take it with you okay as your last day you've got you've got to die with your your songs with you right okay but you get to write down your final truths three lessons that you would share with the world or i like to call it your three truths

and again you've achieved everything done everything you want to do but you've got to take all your work with you and you can leave behind three truths what would you say are your three big lessons to share with the world what a question man first truth would be the smiles don't result from good things, they result in good things. Second truth would be Nietzsche, it's Pali for the language the Buddha spoke, it's Pali for everything impermanence. Everything's impermanent. When you really look at things, there's nothing to hold on to. Really nothing. I mean, whatever you think

is sturdy in your life, it's really not. And so, whether it's a relationship or a job or whatever, you name it, it's going to end at some point. And the sooner you can make peace with that, we can make peace with that. Because I'm not done making peace with that. The more elegantly you can ride the waves of life and the waves of life and death third truth I think I'll use my dad for the third one health and happiness mm-hmm yeah thank you so much man yeah man won't acknowledge you Mike for a moment because you have such a childlike spirit about you a curiosity a kindness and a wonder towards making music and making art and

expressing yourself and I think it's a lost art in making art and a lot of us are focused on career and goals and other things but we forget to take time to reflect and express ourselves in a creative way. And you've done a beautiful job of expressing yourself by everything, your way of being, the way you show up, your hair, your beard is an art, your performances, your communication style, everything for you feels like an expression of your art. So I acknowledge you for showing others what's possible in them by being true to yourself. That means a lot.

And being consistent. Yeah, man. Thank you. Of course. How can we follow you and support you? You've got an album. You're going to be doing Walking Across America next year. Yeah.

You're doing a walking tour. Yeah. You've got songs coming out soon. Where can we listen to your music? Spotify, iTunesunes all the yeah i would say um anywhere there's music my my new stuff will be i'm not sure when we put this out i may have a new song out may not maybe close uh depending on our release date they could follow you on spotify right now and it'll be there. Yeah, follow me on Spotify. I think that's the best way. It's Mike Posner over on Spotify.

Mike Posner. P-M-I-K-E-P-O-S-N as in Nancy, E-R. And I'm on the Instagram, same thing. I'm a sort of haphazard poster. Because sometimes I just hate my phone. Sure. But sometimes I'm on there. So we'll follow you there.

Obviously iTunes and all other places. But anywhere music listen to, you can check. I would say the biggest thing, though, January 11th. Man, my new album. If you really, if something about this vibed with you, the new album. You know, I'm going to put out singles before, basically to draw attention to that. But this album is by far the best thing I ever made. And I'm super proud of it.

I'm super proud of it. So I would say, if you got 40 minutes, it's 40 minutes to listen to that thing. And I don't think you'll regret it. You might, you you got 40 minutes it's 40 minutes listen to that thing and i don't think you'll regret it you might you know your lyrics are unbelievable even if even if it's not your style of music that mike does his lyrics in this really make you think you know you and adam are in queue reminding me a lot of each other and the way you guys construct your words and your poetry about just raising the consciousness level of like what we're doing in our daily lives and you say it in a poetic way with the melody that brings in it just sparks curiosity and it opens the spirit up

to think differently about our lives i think that's what's powerful about what you do, what NQ does. We borrow from each other. Yeah, exactly. I was listening to it in the car with him, and he was just like freaking out. To have him freak out when he's one of the greatest stage poet performers I've ever seen, to have him freak out about lyrics and be inspired by your lyrics, I was like, well, okay, this is impressive.

Thank you, man. Well, I've definitely been inspired a lot by him. I did a poetry album because of him. You did? Yeah. Yeah. I used to do a poem each show last year, all because of him, man. He's great.

Never did it. He's great. And you do little pop-up tours every now and then so people can follow you on your website and see tour dates and all that stuff. Correct. Correct. Final question for you, and that I'd love for you to play if you're down to finish with a song. And it could be seated or whatever, but I'd love for you to finish with a song.

Do you have one of Avicii's songs? Yeah, I learned as an adult. People are like, you know this one. I really know my songs. Your songs. Got it. Got it. And even some of my songs that I wrote before I played guitar, I don't know.

So I'm like, I got to learn all those still. Well, let's do this first. I love your definition of greatness. What does it mean to you? Presence. Presence. So if you look at life, most of the time, I like to think of it like a graph. There's an x-axis, and that's what you're doing over time. And the y-axis is how present

you are while you're doing it. And so, man, you can be like making a bunch of money and very successful. The old cliche, man, and not happy. Or you can be like doing nothing. You can be literally sitting in a chair meditating and be happy. So to me, it's like it doesn't matter what you're doing that much. Like the old proverb, before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water the old proverb before enlightenment chop wood carry water after enlightenment chop wood carry water and so what does that mean it means it doesn't it's that you don't necessarily need to change what you're doing you change how you're doing it

change how you're doing it so the more present you can be um is i think the greater you are. Mike Poston. Thanks, brother. Appreciate you, man. Thank you, man. This is Stuck in the Middle. Perfume on my shirt Puts me in the past Too tough to be without her But too afraid to ask. Here I am again, stuck in the middle.

Here I am again, stuck in the middle. Here I am again, stuck in the middle of a hole Too young to settle down Too old to be in bars It's hard to take it easy It's easy to be hard It's easy to be hard Here I am again Stuck in the middle Here I am again

Stuck in the middle Here I am again Stuck in the middle Here I am again Stuck in the middle Oh Forgive me I am building my ship as it sails how do I become

who I want to be while still remaining myself people love the old me I don't know where he's gone too tired to be famous Too vain to be unknown

Here I am again, stuck in the middle Here I am again Stuck in the middle Here I am again Stuck in the middle Here I am again Stuck in the middle Yeah! Mike Poza in the house, baby!

Yeah! Smash it! Appreciate you, man. Thanks, bro. That was dope. Yeah. That was dope. Make her. I'm a super

I'm a super