The School of Greatness - 778 Turn Your Creative Passion into a Thriving Business with Christina Tosi

Episode Date: April 1, 2019

YOU HAVE TO SHOW UP EVERY DAY. I’m not a distance runner. When I run, the first few minutes are easy. But after a mile, it starts to hurt. I can either stop there, or I can keep going. When I push through the adversity, I feel like I can run forever. I hit the zone where it doesn’t hurt anymore. The same thing happens in life. You have to keep giving it your best even when it’s hard. You have to know that something great is waiting for you on the other side. Everything you’re going through now is paving the way for success in your future. On today’s episode of The School of Greatness, I talk about passion and hard work with a woman who revolutionized the dessert industry: Christina Tosi. Christina Tosi is a chef, author, and television personality. She is the founder and owner of Milk Bar, the sister bakery to the Momofuku restaurant group, and just opened her seventeenth store. Christina is the recipient of several awards and was featured on a list of "Most Innovative Women in Food and Drink" by Food and Wine Magazine in 2014. Christina shares that every time she gets close to a goal, she raises the bar a little higher. She is always growing and always learning. So get ready to learn how to find your true passion and share your gifts on Episode 778. Some Questions I Ask: Can you tell us the story of how Milk Bar came to be? (12:00) How did you learn how to scale your business? (24:00) What’s your vision for Milk Bar? (31:00) How do you continue to reinvent the dream (34:00) What’s the worst voice you have in your head, and what’s the best voice (39:00) Do you think you’d be as driven as you are if you weren’t critical of yourself? (42:00) In This Episode You Will Learn: About filming Netflix’s Chef’s Table (8:00) The lie of the “overnight success” (10:00) How David Chang influenced Christina (15:00) The problem of “knowing too much” (29:00) How working out can help you in business and life (37:00) Why you can’t use outside approval to measure success (43:00)

This is episode number 778 with Christina Tozzi. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Georgia O'Keefe said, whether you succeed or not is irrelevant. There is no such thing.

Making your unknown known is the important thing. Welcome to this episode. I'm super pumped. We've got Christina Tozzi in the house. If you are a fan of MasterChef, then you're going to love this episode. I watched an episode of MasterChef and was blown away by this story about Christina Tosi. She is the founder and owner of Milk Bar, which is the sister bakery to the Mamafuku Restaurant Group. And with a number of locations all around North America, it's been blowing up and her story is incredible. In this interview, we talk about how her story became a metaphor for people who are passionate about life and what it takes to get your dream going. Also, the power of making mistakes and figuring out answers as you go when you start a business

and not just having it all figured out right from the start. How to scale a business and what it takes to go from one store to several around the country from starting out with minimal funding to raising more money and beyond. Also, the mindset of an introverted entrepreneur and how that compares to an extrovert. This is a powerful one. Make sure to share it with your friends, lewishouse.com slash 778. Make sure to tag Christina Tozzi as well on Instagram. Let her know what you enjoyed about this. And I'm telling you guys, you will be addicted to all the goodies at Milk Bar.

So make sure to check out Milk Bar because it is unbelievable what they make. Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness podcast. We have Christina Tozzi in the house. Good to see you. Thank you. I'm all drugged up on Milk bar truffles right now. I'm so excited. And I've been wanting to learn more about you ever since Higgins told me, Matt Higgins told me that I had to have you on.

I was next to you in line at the pop gala last year. I didn't say hi to you because you were busy. And I watched the Netflix special. Oh, The Chef's Table. It's unbelievable. First off, how amazing are those specials? They just make you love people and love food. They're incredible. It's an incredible process because these people learn everything about you and your background. And it's fascinating to me. I mean, they're storytellers, right? They're incredible.

They're storytellers and they do it through video and they do fascinating to me. I mean, they're storytellers, right? They're incredible. They're storytellers and they do it through video and they do it through interviews. The music is just like so moving and emotional. They know how to like just like tap into you, like getting into your brainwaves, getting into your heartstrings and tugging at them. How long was that process for you? It took 14 days.

14 days of filming? Yeah, which on some level, and you have to imagine, they probably did months of research in advance because they came in knowing what they wanted. One, committing 14 days of your life to something like that is a commitment. Huge commitment. And it's also a leap of faith because you're also like,

I mean, you're going to see, I'm a big believer in like, when you commit, you're jumping. You're going all in. There's no like committing a quarter of the way or part of the way or committing here but not committing there. So it's like, great. Welcome to my world. What do you want? What do you want access to?

What do you need? But I also think committing helps make something like that what it is. Even better. Yeah, because if they don't understand you, how are they going to tell your story best? Yeah. Now, did you know it was going to do pretty well based on previous chefs that you had talked to? Oh my gosh.

No, because up until that point, Chef's Table was about typically fine dining chefs. And you're in their beautiful restaurants. And you're in their beautiful restaurants and you're in their beautiful kitchens. You didn't have a restaurant. We don't have a restaurant and our kitchens are, you know, our New York city kitchen, for example, is 11,000 square feet of space. And so I'm thinking like, we don't use tweezers. We mix cookies in mixers that are big enough for you to take a bubble bath in. Right. And so when they first even approached us,

I was like, I don't, like, I think maybe you read the wrong article. Or I think perhaps you have the wrong impression because you're not gonna get the story that you typically tell. One, the spirit of what we do is very, very democratic in the, we make cookies that are accessible in an ideal world to anyone and everyone, right?

It's a $2 cookie. It's a $3 cookie. You don't have to make a reservation. It does take a team to put together, but we're doing it in this really big, large, almost Willy Wonka type of factory. And the spirit of these things, it's so different. It's so different.

Our stores are open from 7 or 8 a.m. until midnight or 1 a.m. or 2's so different. It's so different. Our stores are open from 7 or 8 a.m. until midnight or 1 a.m. or 2 a.m. It's so different. And they said, no, we know exactly what it is that this episode will be, and we're into taking the risk. We're into taking a chance. And I think that acknowledgment for me, great, they're going to stretch. And so committing to this means meeting them at that stretch. Wow.

Yeah. And it came out when? Mid last year? Yeah, middle of last year. And what happened afterwards, like the next six months? Well, I had no concept of, it's kind of interesting. You live in your own world. You live in your own head. I do what I do for me. I do what I do for my team. I do what I do because it's what makes sense in my head. I have no clue whether or not it's going to, I don't know. I'm sure

it'll resonate with some people, maybe not others. I didn't anticipate that it would sort of like blow up our universe in the most beautiful ways. And I mean that in, it affected people in ways that had nothing to do with food. Like food was really the conduit more so than it was the focal point. I think you get to it because food's interesting and everyone wants to watch like a gooey cookie right in like high res on the screen everyone everyone wants that but it was really interesting that it became our story became almost a metaphor for people that are passionate about life that are trying to figure out what that means what it can mean what it should mean what it takes to chase down a calling and that it was it ended up acting as just like a connectivity connective tissue like an open hand like hey do you need a friend or do you

need a pal or do you need someone that gets what you're going through and i think also became this real like became a thing that people went back to to be encouraged to, like, we're all just regular, normal people. There's nothing special in me that's not in you or you or you. It's just about, like, how deep you're willing to dig and what you're willing to do to get to what it takes. And P.S., like, nothing happens overnight. Right. Any, like, overnight successes.

Yeah, oh, I didn't just wake up one day and, yeah. Start making cookies. Yeah. And I think just kind of, like, ripping back or bringing down all of the barriers and boundaries that people put up in their heads through a really honest, simple story of, like, we make cookies and cakes and pies and ice cream.

We do it on our own terms. And it took a long time to get to the point to even have access to do that. And then once we did it, it took us another 10 years to get to where we are to today. And just being as honest as possible about that somehow resonated. In that, like mom always said,

honesty is the best policy. It really is. So for those who haven't seen the special and don't know what we're talking about you had been a chef at like five-star restaurants for many years right and can you tell the story in a brief amount of like what you were doing at the last restaurant and how milk Bar started. Came to me? Yeah. So I moved to New York to become a pastry chef. I went to culinary school because I thought being, loving to make dessert in a professional capacity meant being at the top of your game and being at the top of your game

was being in the most expensive fine dining establishment. And I worked my way up. And what I realized in doing that was I loved that pursuit of that craft. But when I took a look at myself in the mirror, I was like, but I really want to go home and make cookies at the end of the day because I want to feed. I love feeding people, and my version of loving to feed people isn't in the fanciest environment. Like a little thing with the sausage everywhere. Yeah, which is gorgeous and amazing.

And I obviously have so much respect for it. It just wasn't what was in me. And so the last restaurant I was at, I was doing that while also trying to figure out what my next step was. Because I knew that was, I couldn't do that anymore and be true to myself um you weren't finding fulfillment in the work you were doing necessarily exactly I was exactly I was finding fulfillment in the pursuit of a craft but I wasn't finding fulfillment in like the the truth of where I needed to be as as pastry chef, as a top dog.

I wasn't resonating with the, I was resonating with the part of the creation, but not the entirety of the creation. And you were making great money. Well, no, great money does not really exist when you work in a kitchen. You work really long hours. You don't make a lot of money.

It is a true labor of love. But you were working at the best places. I was working at the best places. So you had credibility. Credibility. People looked up to you and respected you. For sure. You were were working at the best places. I was working at the best places. So you had credibility. Credibility. People looked up to you and respected you. For sure. You were like the master of your craft.

For sure. Got it. But I was like, but what's it for? Because I still want to come in early and make crazy brownies or cookies for everyone that works in the kitchen. And then I'll go and do my job. My day job, which inevitably when you work in a restaurant is typically a night job, was I was getting to a place that I was, that I purposefully didn't want when I decided to work into a kitchen. I was like, I don't want a nine to five job. I don't want to be a grownup. I don't want to fall into a routine. And on some

level, that was what that job was. So I needed to get out and figure out what my next step was. And my chef at that restaurant introduced me to Dave Chang, who was democratizing savory food. He had a very similar path. He was in fine dining restaurants and then was like, this doesn't make sense to me. And so he opened this hilariously confusing ramen shop and was just like, I'm't make sense to me. And so he opened this like hilariously confusing ramen shop and was just like, I'm just going to cook whatever I want that's delicious.

And I'm just going to open the doors. And if you come in and get a stool, you can eat for seven or eight or nine or $10. And it was, it became a magnet for people that would make a reservation at this fine dining restaurant. And for someone that lived around the block at this fine dining restaurant and for someone that lived around the block that was like, I'm here for good food. And that made sense to me on so many levels. I saw what he was doing through savory food and I thought, I know what I wanted. There's a path forward. So I started working for him at Momofuku and helping him run operations.

forward. So I started working for him at Momofuku and helping him run operations. I would bake cookies at night and bring them in. And he knew I had a pastry background. And so one day he was like, this is like pretty much ridiculous. It's clear what you need to be doing. Like go and do it. And gave me that push to open Milk Bar. So you were working with him doing operations. You weren't actually cooking or doing. There were no desserts on his menu. It was like wham bam. You like saddle up to this noodle bar and you go I'll have some roasted Brussels sprouts with kimchi puree and smoky bacon which is something that exists now but didn't exist 12-13 years ago and it was kind of like a bunch of cowboys, right?

Like there's a few dudes running the kitchen and I knew how to hold my own and all of that. But the thought of dessert at that point was like, what do you even make for dessert? Because it's like a ramen bar, but there's kind of pseudo Japanese food, but also not at all. Became a melting pot for food.

But also, you need to get people in and out. If you're only charging them a few bucks, you got to get them in and out because you don't want them to sit and eat dessert. So did you start serving dessert there for customers? I did over time. I started, like, working backwards and going, all right, well, like, what would be? I came up with soft serve ice cream. Like, great. People, you don't want people to sit in their chairs for a long time.

Right, take some out and go. Give them something that is going to be a beautiful liquid puddle if they don't eat it quickly, right? Right. And beyond that, I was like, it's this tiny little space. There's no room in the kitchen for a pastry team. So how do you reverse engineer that? And I was like, well, I can make these big, flavorful, delicious milks, if you will, ice cream bases. Put them in a machine and there's, I'm very big to nostalgia.

And I was like, everyone loves soft serve ice cream. Everyone has that attached. But it was different than just soft serve. It had like cereal milk. Yeah. Something crazy. They were all different kind of crazy flavors. Because I was also like, I don't want to make vanilla ice cream everyone makes vanilla ice cream like I'm not here

to be the second the third the fourth of anyone else I'm here to be the first me and so what does that mean through soft serve ice cream and that was like that was where I started to put the pieces together of my own voice through food and my perspective on it. And I was ready when I opened, when Dave was like, this is ridiculous. Just go and do it. Just go and do what we both know you want to do and you need to do. And I have your back. And he kind of just knocked me out the door. I mean, literally right next door. He said, Hey, we've got a space here. I'll help you launch this. I mean, I was running

operations. So I was like, dude, there's this spot next door. It's coming up. We need to be careful, right? Like a competitor could come in a this, that, or the other, the landlord could make trouble for us, whatever it was. And it became clear very quickly that I would take over that spot because it was best for the Momofuku side of the business. And it checked the box of like, you'll still be around, we'll still be to get, like, we'll still have each other's backs, but you'll go and do this thing. So you open it next door. What happens in the first few months? do this thing. So you open it next door. What happens in the first few months? We open the door on November 15th of 2008. And there was a line out the door immediately to the point that I have so many things I'm thankful for. One of the things was that I did not have enough time

to worry about any of the things that I worry about now. I didn't have, there was no point in me that I was like, what if no one comes? I worry about that every day when we open, we just opened our 17th store. And I'm like, what if no one comes? Or what if only five people, right? Like what if no one comes? What if no one cares? What if people don't get what a compost cookie is? What if calling something that has pretzels and potato chips and chocolate chips and coffee and all of these random in-your-cupboard things, what if people are like, that's such a weird name? Or what if people are like, the milk that tastes like what's left in your bowl

after you eat all the cereal out of it? Like, okay, I guess. I didn't have time to worry about any of that. And so when we opened the doors, we really did open in our truest, like, most honest form of ourselves. Because we just had this vision. And in a beautiful and terrible way, we hadn't gut-checked it. It was just guttural. Like, there was no, like, is that?

You didn't have a test group of people? Be like, tell me your opinion on this flavor. What you think of this? And I was like, is that? You didn't have a test group of people be like, tell me your opinion on this flavor. What you think of this? And I was like, we're going to open at 8am and we'll open until 2am. And there was no point of me that was like, girlfriend, that means you are going to need to be at work from like five o'clock in the morning until like when you're done cleaning up three o'clock in the morning. Like how is that going to work? Or I had, we were a team of, I think four or five where it was like, maybe you're going to work? Or I had, we were a team of, I think, four or five where it was like, maybe you're going to need a few more people if you're going to do that seven days a week. And so the doors opened, there was a line out the door from the very beginning and we figured it

out. I mean, we took off sprinting and we started climbing and we, every day we figured it out for good and for bad. We made so many mistakes. And the beauty of the mistakes were that we didn't have the opportunity for the mistakes to sit around. So we'd make a mistake and learn and make a mistake and fix it real quick. I mean, I remember that morning of opening day, it was probably like 6 a.m. and it's like, okay, we're two hours from opening and we're looking around and I'm like, oh my God, we don't have a menu. Like I knew what we were serving and it was all loaded into the point of sale system and we had paper menus, but I was like, you walk in and you can't actually see a physical menu. So we took the legs off of the stainless steel prep tape. We're looking around like, what are we menu. So we took the legs off of the stainless steel prep

tape. We're looking around like, what are we going to do? Took the legs off of the stainless steel prep table, grabbed a dry erase marker. And I have terrible handwriting at best. And I was just like, keep bake, like, you know, just trying to like direct, like keep baking. We were just like, we didn't know what to expect, but I think in a beautiful way, it resonated with people. Because I think when you buy a cookie, you're buying it's something that's so human. If you have ever had a cookie or a cake or a pie, you've probably had it from someone that's in your family that cares about you. That like in a love language way, making dessert is the ultimate love language. And I think you were just getting this honest team of people that were just like they cared so much about what they did and were just figuring it out. So it required a lot of patience from our customers.

But you also got the most delicious baked mixed by hand delivered with so much care thing. And people just came back. Just serving love all day. You know? Love and hugs. Love and hugs, right? Oh my gosh. Every time I go to New York, there's always a line.

It's crazy. When I go, I used to live off Prince and Mulberry, and there's a spot right there on Mott. Yeah, there's one on Mott. You're right. And so whenever I go back to New York, I always try to go in my old neighborhood and see what's new. And I saw the milk bar, and I was like, man, there's a line. That one is one of my- It's so tiny.

It's just like a little cupboard. So one of the reasons there's a line is because the reality of doing business in New York City for New York City stores is like, rent is expensive. You got to sell a lot of cookies to pay the rent. And I mean, you're open seven days a week, 365 or 363, 362. But for me, I really think about our stores in New York. And I think in New York, you're there to be a person in the world. Your apartment is small. You're not really cooking at home, really. Maybe on a special occasion, but you go home to sleep. You do everything else to be out in the world. And so that store for me was really special because it's just a window on the street. It was like, we can try and jam people in

or that neighborhood is like that sort of like no Lita Soho neighborhood is the neighborhood where you go to explore. So sweet. And so it felt more like we have to be a part of the street, of this street of New York City. That's cool. And so you just grab it and you go on

your way. That's amazing. So the first door you were making the cookies and cakes in the store. Yeah. But now you have this huge warehouse where you're have bathtubs of truffle ball butter or whatever it is you have in there that you're mixing all day from the Netflix series. I saw it's like, okay, how did you learn how to scale it? And when did you realize like, okay, we can't do this in individual stores anymore. It all has to be in one place and take it to the stores. That's a good question. I like to think about my life, especially when people go like, okay, but like, how do I get to where you are? And it's like, you have to follow your intuition and you have to make sure that every decision you make, it doesn't have to be on one straight path.

It can be a very curvy path. It can be really wide lanes. But you have to make sure you show up to whatever that path is every day and mean it. So when I think about answering that question, I go, well, every single day leading up to that trained me for that decision and learning how to do it. So when I was first deciding to work in kitchens, I would work in like kind of on some level in any kitchen that was compelling to me. And I got a job really early on before I moved to New York City. Someone convinced someone that I was a great baker and my like tiny little stand mixer at home. And someone gave me a job running this huge bakery on an Island off the coast

of New Hampshire where I had to cook breakfast, lunch and dinner for 800 people every day. And I showed up and in the spirit of like, you have to rise to the occasion. Someone was like, here's the, here's the mixer. And it was this gigantic thing. And I was like, I don't know. I have no clue how to run this. You used to do a small one, not a scale. Yeah, the one that sits on your kitchen counter. But it's like, great. It's just like a honey,

I shrunk the kids moment. That's fine. How hard could it be? You got to just lean into it. And I was like, great. So can you just give me the quick one, two, three? How do you lift the bowl up, this, that, or the other? And I figured out how to do it. Went to New York, went into all this fine dining, never saw a mixer like that again. But in my mind was like, okay, I know how to feed the masses. So when we opened Milk Bar, there was a line out the door and I was like, our kitchen is hugely undersized for the demand. And I was like, we're going to need a bigger boat. And it was a lot easier to figure out what that bigger boat looked like because I just started going into my experience and memory of,

okay, what does this mean? One day at a time, one step at a time, one huge mixing bowl at a time. Instead of buying, you know, a little pack of butter, we buy a 30-pound case of butter. And instead of buying a 30-pound case of butter, we buy a 3,000-pound brick of butter. Crazy. And you just make it happen. 3,000 brick?

A 3,000-pound brick. It comes like a pallet. Really? Shut up. And I'm not joking. It's not like a bunch of little bricks. It's one big thing. They make a big brick? Well, how do you think they make the little sticks, dude?

Like, it comes. They cut it up. Crazy. How much does a 3,000-pound brick of butter cost? That's a good question. I don't know. I'd have to check a dairy lady. I'm just curious.

It's crazy. It's crazy. How many cookies can I make? But that's how big, I mean, batches and batches, hundreds of thousands of cookies. Wow. But that's also the, that's when you, I mean, batches and batches, hundreds of thousands of people. Wow. But that's also the, that's when you start to go, at some point as you grow a business, you have to go, what are my bottlenecks? How do I work smarter, not harder?

And you just have to equip yourself. I think for me, one of the biggest like mental realizations was people do it every day, right? Like you're not necessarily any better or worse equipped than someone else, whether the toilet's clogged or you need to move a light switch or the delivery van breaks down, right? Like these are people doing things, applicable things that they've learned in the world. And that like empowerment of equipping yourself with as many skills as necessary to solve your problems is really important. And that was, for me, those are like the really fun parts. One, yeah, how do you scale

up the compost cookie to go from this to that is trial and error, is trying to throw as much of your learnings as possible against it, and then learning along the way. Like, great, okay, so when we scale up, we need to always increase salt by 15% or flour needs to, you know, you have to be careful with it or it's a bigger mixer so you're gonna develop gluten because it takes more manpower, there's more friction that's working the dough and cookie dough,

you want to kind of be mixed as little as possible so they're tender and fudgy. But it is not being afraid to acknowledge the problem and to solve with it. It's to never work with the problem. But yeah, we went from this tiny store, 750 square feet. In New York, we have an 11,000 square foot

kitchen. In D.C., it's about 4,000 square feet. Here in L.A., it's 3,000 square feet. How many stores in L.A.? Just one. Just our flagship. 3,000 square feet for one store stores in L.A.? Just one. Just our flagship. 3,000 square feet from one store. Yeah, yeah. Are you going to expand to more then?

That's a good question. I don't know. Venice and Monica. It's got to get to Venice. I know. I like this as always. Whenever you hang out with someone that lives in L.A., they're like, or just like, there's a shop right around the corner from my front door.

There is a place right down the street that just opened up. I don't know. WeHo needs it. It's the tricky part of knowing too much at this point, right? What do you mean knowing too much? Knowing too much. Like then now opening a store is totally different than opening that first store. Why? There's so much more on the line.

I mean, you got to know this, right? Like in your career, you work, you work, you work. And then once you start to actually achieve, there's more people counting on you. There's more to lose. There's more things to consider. There's money involved, investors now. Visibility, all these things. And your single decision is something that is responsible for so many other things. Aside from that, it's like, why do people love it? If it were on every corner, does it feel as special? You almost worry about breaking it as much as you worry about feeding it and supporting it and growing it. And so when that happens, I'm like, all right, stop. You got to get out of your own head. Like,

get out of the room, go for a run, whatever it is, because now you're treating it in a way that's so precious. And that's also not what it is. But it is like how do we inspire? The big question is like how do we inspire celebration? How do we remind people, show people, be a part of people's lives in the big and little ways, especially the little ways for me, like whether it's cheat day, cheat morning with those birthday truffles, or the like, I just ran the marathon, or the like, I just broke, I just got dumped, or I just broke up with someone, or I just bought my first car, whatever, the little things that you don't think about.

I was on time to work today, whatever it was, right? Like the bigger little things that you don't think about. I was on time to work today, whatever it was, right? Like the bigger little things and being a part of that texture in people's lives. And what does that look like? For me, it's not about store count. It's not about measuring milk bar success in any way other than trying to figure out how to measure those like really human connections,

which are basically possible to measure. But for me, that's why I do it. That's what makes it worth it. And that's kind of what I'm always protecting. But I don't want 100, 200, 300 stores if it means, if we do it, we have to do it in a way that still maintains that philosophy that isn't just about like, well, we're opening it because we can open it. Yeah a way that still maintains that philosophy. That isn't just about like, well, we're opening it because we can. Yeah. You don't want to lose the magic. Yeah.

So what's the vision then? 17 stores right now. Do you call them stores, bakeries? What do you call them? Change it up. Okay. 17 locations. Milk bars, milk bars. I mean, every store is different yeah which is part of the formula right like we don't stamp them out we have a roadmap but it's really important that each one of them is their own like living breathing thing yeah that it's a reflection of the people that are a part of it and i don't mean on the inside i do mean on the inside but i also mean if we want to be a part of your life so if you go to a store you're're part of that, what making a store what it is. What's the vision then moving forward? You've been doing it for 11 years almost?

Almost 11 years. And what's the next? I mean, for me, Milk Bar and my most grand vision of it. And I've had to like go back to the dreamscape because every time I get close to the dream, I'm like, girl, you got to set the bar a little bit further, a little bit further. every time I get close to the dream, I'm like, girl, you got to set the bar a little bit further, a little bit further. So my current bar is to make Milk Bar a thing that would, the 10-year-old version of myself growing up in the suburbs of Ohio or Virginia, that Milk Bar's reach and presence is there to inspire the 10-year-old that is like,

that loves cookies and loves doing things to make people feel like supported and a part of something, that loves walking up and down the aisles of the grocery store, that loves like digging into the cupboards and making a total mess um that milk to to make milk bar into a thing that a 10 year old that just has the most basic normal access that anyone in this country might have in that setting in that suburban setting that it empowers that person to just to learn the rules and then maybe learn how to break them a little bit or to say cool i get what a chocolate chip cookie is but but what if I like these other things? What if I put them in or I want to do something for someone and it doesn't have to look like a vanilla cake with vanilla frosting, that it can be a reflection of the person, that it's an opportunity to really feed to bring imagination in and to feed someone through

this dessert it is a big one but i also feel like in my head it makes perfect sense and it's not out of reach nothing's out of reach wow how do you continue to reinvent the dream as you get closer to it what's the process for dreaming beyond the dream that's a good question I'm very introspective I'm actually an introvert so I spend a lot of time my like recharge time is spent alone usually baking alone going on a run alone so a lot of it is I leave my house in the morning, leave my apartment in the morning. I'm like, okay, you have to let that go and you have to go and be a person for people. But a lot of that like dream setting and measuring and swimming around in my own head happens when I'm alone and on my own, which is usually late at night or early in the morning.

And I gut check. I'm a very big, I talk about like November 15th, 2008. I had no time to gut check. It was just guttural. I do all of my editing, whether it's editing recipe or editing a plan for the business or editing that like big dream. It happens when I'm on my own. And I run things through my mind

crazy whenever I'm running by myself as well I get the best ideas I'm allowed to I give myself space to reflect on what's working what's not working and start to re-dream as well yeah and it's not like a to-do list thing it's not like all right so tonight when you're running this is what we're going to go through in our head, right? It's almost like letting yourself just be instead of do. It's like being versus doing. That's so interesting. Running is big for you in that space, huh?

It allows me to clear everything in my mind. You know, even if I'm, sometimes I listen to music, sometimes I'll listen to an interview, or sometimes I'll do nothing. And all three times I get ideas and I start to reevaluate what's happening in my life, good and bad or neutral. I just start to reimagine. It's a meditative space. Very meditative. Do you meditate on the regular? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I like to say that I'm very consistent, but I miss some days here and there, but I try to do 13 to 15 minutes every morning. Oh, you're so good. Try to.

Yeah. I miss this morning, but. Yeah. Yeah. But the missing is also like the humanity of it of like. I'm not perfect. I'm not going to hit the same routine every single day. I do my best.

Yeah. But a workout I feel like is the most meditative thing I can do. Yeah. Because it processes any negative energy or any toxic energy or anything. It just kind of gets it out. I like that. It's true. It's that for me, and it's also this.

I think there's like, for me, I take an insane amount of empowerment in running long distances because there's something about like once I get in motion, this sense of telling myself and having the relationship with myself, like, you can go forever. You can go forever. It's mind over matter. And also this, you can do anything. You can do anything. You have to just start.

Like, taking that first step or the second step or the third step in the running for me is like it's not hard to do but once I've taken the first three steps it could have been my millionth step it's that like mentality of empowerment of like just start once you start you'll figure everything else out you don't have to have all the answers for me I'm not a distance guy I'll run maybe four or five miles max I'm like that's a really long amount for most people. I like that you're like, that's not distance, which depending on- Three miles is like- Yeah, exactly. I'm more of a sprinter or like interval sprinting. So if I do a three or four mile run, the first two minutes is easy. It's like right after I hit mile one, one and a half,

it starts to like hurt. And then I'm like, okay, I can either stop here or I can continue to push through it. And when I push through the pain and the adversity and I get on the other side, it's like, I feel like I can run forever. Forever for me is like another two miles. Right. But it's like, I feel like I can run farther than I'm used to running, which is two and a half or three miles. I can go four, four and a half, five. And I hit that zone as well where it doesn't hurt anymore. Yeah. It's almost like you learn every time anew to quiet the voice in your head, like the naysayer in your head.

And you're like, we're not going to do that right now. But whether you're doing like sprints or intervals or whatever it is, I feel like it's the same thing of like, we're not going to let that voice come at like we. The voice is in my head, right? Like the personalities that you hold. We're not going to do that right now. We're just going to be quiet.

What's the worst voice that you have and what's the best voice? I think the best voice is the one that just like puts a smile on my face. I went for a run yesterday morning and I was like I think everyone on the street right now must think I'm a lunatic because it's the most quiet voice that just, I was just smiling. I'm like running up a huge hill just smiling, just so happy and at peace. It's the voice that almost doesn't have a voice. It's the voice that just keeps all the other voices quiet. I think the worst voice is the one that's hypercritical. Whether it's like, you didn't meditate today. That's a problem.

Or this or that. Or you're not this enough. You're not that enough. Or you could have, coulda, woulda, shoulda. And I think the best voice is the one that's like, oh, I see you. We're going to be quiet. Just be quiet. And I think talking about and acknowledging it is a big part of it. Because whether you're talking about working out, you're talking about building a business, you're talking about finding your calling and just in the pursuit of engaging with it, what do they say? Like showing up is 80% or 90% of it.

And like learning to showing up, I think is letting that your strongest, most powerful voice, which is your quieting voice, tell everything else to be quiet. Percentage-wise throughout your strongest, most powerful voice, which is your quieting voice, tell everything else to be quiet. Percentage-wise throughout your day, what's the percentage of the critical voice versus the positive voice, would you say? Depends on the day. I am at my best when I am, I know that my relationship with myself is that I'm at my best when I'm in just like a little over my head, where my drive to be like, you got to keep your head up above water, you got to keep your head up above water, is like my middle voice that keeps the critical voice quiet.

So I'd say the critical voice comes out most at night and in the morning when I'm quiet and I'm by myself. Really? morning when I'm quiet and I'm by myself. I try to keep it out of the way the rest of the day by going like, hey, great. Why don't you build this bakery? It's this big, magic, magnificent thing. And when I'm focused on that, it'll usually quell everything else, especially the voice that you're like. Because you're just focused on taking action and making it happen. I'm focused. I have my team. I want to serve them. I want them to feel motivated. I want to push them so that they're motivating themselves.

I have all these other things I'm worried about that are in front of me as opposed to letting that. Yeah, exactly. Isn't that interesting that you say you love being an introvert, but the times you're alone, you're the most critical person. It makes no sense. But you like being alone. Yeah. Why do you like're alone, you're the most critical person. It makes no sense. But you like being alone. Yeah.

Why do you like being alone if you're critical of yourself? I think it's the time that I get to know myself most. I think when you're out, when I'm out all the time, I don't have like a stopping point to check in with myself because I'm just like, go, go, go, go, go. stopping point to check in with myself because I'm just like, go, go, go, go, go. And that stopping point to check in with myself is the place where I have the opportunity to feel the most accomplished because I don't need, I don't want or need somebody else's recognition to tell me about me and where I'm at and how I'm feeling about the job that I'm doing. It's the place where I have the opportunity for that when I'm alone.

But the tricky part is it's also the place where like the bad voices have the opportunity to sneak into. Huh. Do you think you would be as driven and successful as you are if you weren't critical in those alone times? No. Because I wouldn't have my own measure, right? Like if you don't have your own measure of what right from wrong is, what you want to set up, where you're falling short, then how do you know? Then you have no measure. Then good and bad is all the same thing,

right? And wrong is all the same thing. But it's also tricky because you have to be a person in the world and you can't just measure your own feedback for yourself. One of like the big things that I've really learned over the past 10 years is it's easy to get defensive when you're like, no, I'm my own worst enemy, so I don't actually need you to give me feedback, right? And to open yourself up a bit more to start to understand the things you don't know. You only know what you know. You don't know what you don't know. Wow. That's an interesting balance. So wait, did you say you don't care about the approval of anyone else? I don't. That's not how I measure my own success. I think that approval, winning awards, this and that, I think that those are things that are, like, nice to have.

They're nice to have for my team. Sometimes I think about my day or the commitments I make in terms of, like, it's not just me anymore, right? Like, there are people that show up every single day and make a promise, and I need to make a promise to me and to Milk Bar. And it's really important that it's a two-way street, that I'm making a promise to them. But also, if something bad comes out,

if a bad piece of a piece of criticism comes out, it also can't mean that you're a total failure. You have to find a space for those two things to exist. I think I always say to the team, like, their perception is our reality. If someone has something positive to say, that's great, but that can't be the only thing. But also if someone has something negative to say, there's truth somewhere in it. And that's an opportunity. And we shouldn't be, we shouldn't have our guards up so much where we're our only barometers of success and measure that we're not open to that.

That's where you start to really feel like you're growing and blossoming a bit more. It's a scary place to be, but it's a really good place to be too. What's the biggest thing you've learned about yourself in the last 11 years? That's a good one. about yourself in the last 11 years? That's a good one. The biggest thing that I've learned about myself is that I only know what I know. And some days that's a lot. And some days it's just the beginning. And that's, that I think comes from, you know, when you're in your twenties, you're feeling great about life. You're feeling yourself like big time and that it's such an empowering like decade of years and in a really beautiful way it's so easy to be like to feel

great and feel big and to very quickly have that turn into like defense or closing yourself off to all of the things that you will surely learn in your 30s and in your 40s or whatever it is. And I think when people ask, like, what's your biggest mistake? Would you ever change anything? It's like, no, but I would love to be able to go back to my 20s and just, like, tap myself and be like, hey, girlfriends. Like, what you're doing is great and keep going but like let people in let the conflict in a little bit more let the criticism in a little bit more because you're so much better off when you do really so you weren't letting any criticism

in I think I was doing like I'm on my long distance run like I've got my armor on every day is a battle opening this business and going and like I have to have my back first like on an extra extra extra level and I think the second you start to actually open yourself up to let other people be a part of that dream and that vision and that business in your life, when you let people be with you, you're so much better for it. And so I was a bit more, I'm a very stubborn person in general, but I was incredibly stubborn in my 20s. And stubborn is what, I mean, on the tiniest purse string is also what drove me to make Milk Bar what it is and why Milk Bar is what it is on many levels. But it's opportunity and threat at the same time.

Like if I didn't have that, like no one gets to tell me who I am and who I'm not, what I'm capable of, what's possible. I mean, in 2008, someone being like, you have how much money in your bank account? You're going to open a bakery? That sounds like a really bad idea. I mean, my sweet parents were like, oh my God, we gave you so much opportunity. Why do you want to go work in kitchens? And why this bakery? Like, can't you go be like a doctor or a lawyer? Can't you do the safe thing? And I needed, I both needed to be really stubborn and closed-minded from other people's opinions to be able to hear myself. But at the same time, I look back and go, oh, my God, what worked for me back then does not work for me today.

And if I hadn't figured it out, it would have been holding me back so much. Wow. Yeah. What are you most proud of that you've done? This is like, I feel like such a hilarious old lady saying it. Well, one of my biggest pieces of pride from the past few months was we just started offering a 401k program at Milk Bar, which is like, when you work in restaurants, you give it your all. It's a labor of love. Restaurant, like the word restaurant is restorative, right? Like people come to be restored. But in a really tricky way, people don't typically, you don't take care of yourself

because you're working crazy long hours on your feet all the time. It's stressful and strenuous and yelly and screamy usually, and like all of these things. And there's typically not a program put in place to take, your job is to restore all these other people, and that's why you love doing it. You love feeding and nurturing. But who has your back, I think, is the question that I started asking myself or realizing. That was like, we offer health insurance and maternity and paternity and all of these other things, but the 401K for me was, what if when you came into the doors of Milk Bar, you never had to write, you never had to go for another job interview. You never had to

write another resume. Like what if when we grew, you grew, what if Milk Bar is a true reflection of all the people that work in it. And in order to do that, you got to come in and make a promise every day, but I got to make a promise to you and I want to have your back. And I think that's the one thing when you work in the food industry, you don't really think about the future because you're just so happy in this labor of love. And that was for me, like the ultimate, it took a long time and it's not cheap and it is so worth it. And it's like that part of it is the funniest part of it because looking back 10 years ago, I mean, I would never. It wouldn't even occur to me that I thought I was opening this bakery because I love to feed people and be a part of people's lives. And I do.

I think the people's lives that I underestimated, I would become obsessed with being part of as my own teams. It was the people that helped me bring it to life How many people are working in milk bar? 320 30 it grows every day crazy. It's crazy 300 and super cool It's amazing. Yeah, the first one started with a four or five of you. Yeah 17 locations so you have people working in the storefront and then you have people working in the I guess what do we call it

the bakeries yeah in the kitchens we have people that run like the delivery teams driving the cookies and the cakes and the pies

we have the shipping yeah you're on it you're like you're already ready to be the director of operations shipping and fulfillment and then we have

the other like sticky teams of when we're at like an oscar party the stores are still open and this that and the other and so we have so many other unsung heroes on the team like caterers that are going to these events wow they're like show up high kicking and high-fiving and they work their butts off so that when they're there they have a blast and they want you to have a blast too.

Wow. Yeah. It's kind of crazy. When do you feel the most loved? When do I feel the most loved? I feel the most loved when I receive a care package from my mom. Wow. She sends me, I'm like technically a grown up.

She sends me, it sounds funny, but like she sends me a'm like technically a grown-up she sends me it sounds funny but like she sends me a care package it's usually once a month or once every two months she sees me and obviously a very true form of myself she's known me my entire life she sends me I kid you not a bag of like little candy like almost penny candy so like if it's you know, it's a little bag of Reese's Pieces or it's a tiny little Twix bar, whatever. She sends me that. She typically sends me a baked good. Like she'll send me a nine by nine square aluminum pan

of like gooey butter cake, brownie, whatever. And she knows that I like everything a little, you know from the movie. I love the gooeyness. Underbaked. It has to be underbaked so it has to be underbaked and so then usually it's like to the edges no and so it's usually all smushed on one side because she doesn't have like a master shipping warehouse the way that we do right

she has it's always um a bunch of she lives in the dc area a area, a bunch of D.C. food sections, which is her way of pursuing me being like, I get it and I support your dream. She always writes me a letter and it's always on some random piece of scrap paper because she's totally a waste not want not lady. And it's about whatever random thing she was doing that day. There's nothing big about it. It's just the texture of that day and that moment in life. nothing big about it it's just the texture of that day in that moment in life and then maybe there's like a baby quilt because we have this tradition in our family my family they're all sewers and quilters and they make baby quilts for so anyone that we know that's having a baby gets a baby quilt that's made by hand by the women in my family it's it's these layers and blankets of visibility and acceptance.

That's when I feel the most loved because it feels like I know that I've been the same person. Since the moment I left home, I've been the same person. She sends the same care package, and it doesn't matter to her. It doesn't matter to her that she's sending it to this huge office in New York City now. It doesn't matter to her that she's sending it to this huge office in New York City now. It doesn't matter to her that she's sending a baked good that's totally smushed on one side to a place that has plenty of baked goods. It doesn't matter to her. That's when I feel the most loved because I feel the most seen.

Huh. You feel the most seen by your mom. Yeah. And it's always in a cardboard box. It's been used six times. You know, like the Sharpie on the side. Like maybe it was like an Amazon package, and then it was this, and then it was that. And I love it because she's kind of, she's also very stubborn where she's like, oh, I see you.

Oh, I see you. And it also for me is like the best. I feel the most loved because it's also the biggest anchor for me in a day. To get that. To get that. To open it. To share it with the team. To put the newspaper things out. To be like, what is this?

And it's like, my mom. And I usually do like the roll of the eye. Like, you know, I can't take her anywhere kind of thing. It reminds me of camp. When I was growing up, I'd go to camp. I would get care packages. And it reminds me of home and feeling loved as well. There needs to be a business around care packages.

I mean milkbarstore.com. You can buy care packages. That for me is like the other part of Milk Bar is what we do online that a lot of people know, but I think we're still getting out is the, it's easy from a business standpoint to be like, it's e-com, right? Like that's the business term. But for me, it's like the spirit of a care package of feeling loved and seen and home and some people like in a beautiful way like send themselves a cake and they're like hey girl keep doing it wow but you can see it you can see it as we're packing it and for me that's like that's that's fuel that's like the inspiration how many so these are care packages you can send yourself anything or do you have kind of like

pre-planned we have you can send almost anything on our menu. We don't ship the soft, the cereal milk soft serve, but we ship pretty much anything else. Do you guys do like scrap paper notes? Do you do quilts? We'll write a note. I might, we should totally do quilts. My mom would be like girlfriend.

Put it like a little, a little mini square. I do. Well, I send it. And it's like Reese's Pieces. Like every box gets like a little candy thing. Oh, my God. Do you want to be the creative director of Milk Bar? Exactly.

We'd make a great team. But I'm telling you, this would go even better, I think. I love this. If you added like little Reese's Pieces or a Kit Kat or whatever it is. Yeah. Like every box got just a little thing of candy. Every box got a little square of a quilt and a little wrapped off note. It's just like a quote.

Yes. Something that's like you're loved and seen. I love this. And it adds a more like homey. I got you. Less corporate-y, you know, quote. Yes. Something that's like you're loved and seen. I love this. And it adds a more like homey, less corporate-y, you know, feeling. Yeah, that's what I'm talking about, right? Like I got you. And the batter's got to be a little bit to the side, yeah. Yeah, exactly.

I feel like someone would be mad if their crack pie was like a little, maybe like that's not what it looked like in the picture when I ordered it. Exactly. Okay, fine. But yeah, the like what else goes in the box is the question that hilariously we're asking ourselves. And that's the fun part of building the business too is like bringing that part of being seen in. Or sometimes the team is like, Christina, we can't do that. And asking like, but why can't we?

Tell me why. You couldn't do cereal milk either. Yeah, there you go. Also, you couldn't pay rent off of selling $3 cookies. Exactly. But somehow we do it. So how many boxes of care packages do you ship a day? Do you know?

Oh, my gosh. It depends. Over the holiday season, I mean hundreds of thousands. Wow. This past holiday season was our biggest one. And the only way we could make it work, even in our big kitchen in New York, because we shipped some out of L.A., the L.A. kitchen, and the rest out of the New York City kitchen, we hired these trucks that were refrigerated to literally just drive around to keep the packages cold until UPS or FedEx or the Postal Service came to pick it up. Because you didn't have enough freezer space.

We don't have enough fridge or freezer space, right? Like that's when you're like, this is the, yeah. And also like, this is the coolest thing. And I look at that and I go, I wonder if 10-year-old Christina got one of those in the mail. And it's like, probably not. We got to keep going. Wow. But that was like, that's, and that's the like, we make things funny to keep it real.

Obviously, it's stressful trying to figure that out, plan for it. Logistics. Package, day and night. But when we take a step back being like, we literally had trucks driving around our kitchens to keep the packages cold. Because that's how many people came out for their care, for their holiday care package. That's cool. I've got three final questions for you. This one's called the three truths.

Okay. So imagine you've accomplished everything you've ever dreamed of. And every dream you get closer to, you have to reinvent the new dream and dream bigger. And you achieve everything you want that you can think of. But one day you have to go. You know, it could be 100 years from now. It could be whenever. I have to say goodbye to the world.

You got to go to, yeah, another place, wherever you go to. Got it. You got to die. And you've accomplished everything. And for whatever reason, all of your message that you put out to the world, this interview, videos, Netflix, whatever books, everything you've put out in the world, you've got to take it all with you.

So no one has your message anymore. No one has like your words, written, audio, video. But you get to write down on a piece of paper this final day, three things you know to be true about all of the lessons you've learned that you would share with the world. Your three truths or lessons, what would you say are yours?

I showed up. I meant it. I made it better. That and like a really, I thought, I was like, oh my gosh, how am I going to do this? That is my measure of a day. And similar to like,

I like the thing I meditate every day I don't I try to do it regularly the thing I try and do regularly is when I check in with myself before I go to bed and I'm like looking to my own internal voice is like did you show up did you mean it more and more than anything else did you make it better and that can, it's applicable to everything big and small, especially the small. I like that. Yeah. Before I ask the final two questions, how can I, how can we support you?

Where can we follow you? How can we show up to Milk Bar in person, online? I love, you got to come hang out. I know. Get that care package. Sheila's right across the street from, in Miracle Mile area, yeah. Keep, get that care package. Okay.

So you can get a care package online. Yeah, milkbarstore.com is our handle, is our website. All of our social handles, our website. My handle's just my first last name, Christina Tozzi. You can go to christinatozzi.com. I have a bi-weekly newsletter that I try to just show up, mean it,

and make it better in the world and just kind of like share my own personal path of whatever random thing I find joy in in the moment or I discovered in my week or two come out and visit us in the stores for me it's like come out in the morning come out late at night like come and see us and show up and we want to connect with you let us connect with you show up and don't show up prepared almost. That's like my request. Show up unprepared. Show up curious.

Show up like ready to take a leap with us or send someone some love in the mail. Yeah, it's an experience. So make sure you guys go and check it out and try and sample a few things. What are the main cities you guys are in? New York, LA, DC, Las Vegas at the Cosmopolitan. Nice.

And we have a fun little refrigerated cube of a store in Toronto. Cool. Yeah. Any good expansion in the Midwest? Oh, my gosh, in Boston. What am I talking about? We just opened a store in Boston. Harvard Square, right?

I was just there. There you go. This is the, like, what day of the week is it? I don't even know. Boston, Harvard Square. Are you going to open up in the Midwest at all? I mean, that's my Christina's, like inspiring the Christina's a 10-year-old. What is that?

How does Milk Bar get to the Midwest? For me, that's where it all began. That's why the corn cookie exists. Growing up in the cornfields of Ohio is like, that is the ultimate love letter. That's when we'll know. That's one of the dreams. How do we get northward to the Midwest? When you open it up in Columbus, I'll go there.

We'll all show up for the opening, right? I'm in. I'm in. I want to acknowledge you, Christina, for your creativity, your curiosity, and for showing up. Thank you. Because I think it's hard coming from the Midwest and having these big dreams and actually pursuing it. You pursued a craft that you thought you were supposed to take for so many years. And you realize, okay, this is a great job, but it's not where I ultimately want to be.

And almost everyone said it was kind of crazy to go make cookies now. But you did it anyways. And look what you've created. You've inspired so many people. So I acknowledge you for everything. I acknowledge you for showing up as a rainbow, even though I know you said there's a lot of darkness that happens day to day and challenges you have to go

through and the grit that you have to have to make this happen after 11 years, it's a lot of work. So I acknowledge you for all the work you've done. My final question is what's your definition of greatness? I think my definition of greatness is being able to sit with myself and smile. Be happy, to find happiness in just being alone, because I'm an introvert.

Being happy alone. For me, that's greatness. That's something I always wanted to make sure I had in life. And if that's what I leave as my mark or the thing that I have that I know I checked off, that is greatness for me. Christina, thank you. Appreciate it. There you have it, my friends. I hope you enjoyed this episode with the incredible Christina Tosi of Milk Bar. Again, I'm so inspired by her story. Check out all of her information that we talked about. Make sure to follow her on social media as well. She's got some great stuff. And

check out one of her locations. Milk bar has been blowing up. You can get it online. You can go to a location, one of her stores and try the full experience in person. And you may get addicted. I'm telling you, I can eat their cookies, their balls, their cakes, everything. It is so addictive. Make sure to check it out ASAP.

Get someone a gift as well. You can buy a gift for someone online, and that'll go a long way. Again, make sure to share this with your friends, lewishouse.com slash 778 if you enjoyed this, and tag myself, at lewishouse, on Instagram, and connect with Christina Tosi as well, and let her know what you thought. And always remember, you don't have to have everything figured out when you get started. So many people are crippled by making a decision on how to launch their business or grow their business

or start a new project. But this analysis paralysis is really what holds you back because you're never gonna have it perfect at the start. All businesses evolve, all projects grow and transform and innovate. You trying to overanalyze and make everything perfect right away is only wasting time. The quicker you start, the faster you go. You're going to learn quickly and you can adjust quickly. Just don't stay stuck in your ways if it's not working right away. Be willing to adapt and evolve.

And that's something I love about Christina. She was willing to try and innovate and be creative. And her creativity grew and so did her business along the way. So I hope you enjoyed this one. Again, Georgia O'Keefe at the beginning said, whether you succeed or not is irrelevant. There is no such thing. Making your unknown known is the important thing. I hope you guys enjoyed this one. And as always, you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do

something great. Outro Music