The School of Greatness - 84 How to Be A Man In Today's World (And What Women Can Do to Support) with Brett McKay

Episode Date: August 17, 2014

"Don't kill the animal within you; just tame him and use him appropriately." - Brett McKay To learn more about the School of Greatness, head on over to www.lewishowes.com/84

This is episode number 84 with Brett McKay from Art of Manliness. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. What is up, greats? Thanks so much for tuning in today on this exceptional day. And I've got my man, Brett McKay, who's the founder and editor of artofmanliness.com,

one of the premier destination sites and blogs for men and for women, but it's all about becoming a manly man. And we dive into a lot of different topics today on what it actually means to be a manly man. And you like how I'm using my voice? Manly man. All the actual challenges that have been facing men over the last 50 years and all the evolution that's

happened with women in the workforce, just the different changes. Again, nothing is right or wrong, good or bad, but just the changes in how men have had to evolve in the workplace, in relationships, in their actual physical strength, in all these different areas of their lives, the challenges that come up for men, what men can do to become better men, best versions of themselves. We cover that all today on this episode. And Brett's got some really cool information and insights from the years of research he's been doing this. So I'm very excited to introduce him and dive into this episode. I want to give a quick shout out to our sponsor. It's a new sponsor today over at 99designs.com slash greatness.

Now, at the end of this episode, we talk about the success of Brett's blog and his business and really how it's grown in such a powerful business for him to have an incredible lifestyle, live from home, work from home, and raise a family around his business and his blog. Now, let's go ahead and dive in with Art of Manliness founder, Brett McKay. Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness podcast. Super pumped for today's episode because we got my good man, Brett McKay on. What's up, Brett? How's it going, Lewis? Going well, man. We've been trying to do this for about six months. So the stars aligned and

we're finally bringing our manly vibes together to make it happen. So I'm excited. And I'm very excited just because I think the topic that you have, which is called theartofmanliness.com, is one of the most unique and interesting and fun and entertaining and educational blogs and sites out there. And I think it's great what you're doing because you're bringing a lot of education and entertainment at the same time. It's not just information, but it's like you make it fun. You make it like something people want to share because it looks cool. It's interesting. So it's amazing what you've created and congratulations. Well, I appreciate it. Thank you very much. It means a lot. And you started in 2008, correct?

That's right. Well, I was a second year law student. And why did you start this in the first place? So, I mean, I had been blogging for a little bit. I had this blog called The Frugal Law Student, where it was about personal finance from a law student's perspective. And it gained some traction. I kind of got the blogging bug there, and I cut my teeth there. And I met a lot of cool people, you know, J.D. Roth from Get Rich Slowly, Leo from Zen Habits, Trent from Simple Doll. I mean, just some really cool people. I got to interact with them. And so I was doing it for blogging for a little bit. And then I was at a Borders bookstore one night, just kind of passing time during study sessions, looking at the men's magazines. And, you know, I described to Men's Health. I, you know, would go every now and then look at men's magazines like Esquire, Men's Journal, you know, as a teenager, Maxim and FHM and things like that. Remember that one night I was just like looking over the headlines on these magazines.

I just like realized, man, like I don't resonate with this stuff anymore. So it's all about like, you know, six pack abs and, you know, how to, you know, sex tips on how to have great sex for five hours or what. I mean, just sort of like the Cosmo type things that you see before guys. Um, and like sort of a lifestyle that, you know, I couldn't afford as a broke law student and, you know, married broke law student. So I was just like, you know what, there's, there's, there's gotta be something like someone else, there's gotta be some cool stuff out there. And there wasn't. So I so I decided you know what I'm going to start the men's magazine that I'd want to read like that resonates with me um so that's what I did like I started kind of brainstorming

like what I'd want on a men's magazine that I'd want to read I even had like a like my moleskin right I was like really religious about that the pocket notebook and I started jotting down ideas and I started like tossing around ideas for like the name. And, uh, there's a book I read, um, called the, it was called the manly arts is about 19th century pugilism. And I was kind of like, I thought that was going to be the name, but I was like, no, that doesn't sound right. And I was like, Oh, art of, how about art of manliness instead of manly arts? I'm like that. So I, you know, pitched it to my wife and she's like, that's really cool. I was kind of giving her the idea of like what I wanted to look like. I wanted to be branded sort of like this vintage old school thing.

So yeah, I had the idea, started designing it myself because I didn't, I couldn't afford a graphic, a web designer. And I launched it January 2008. And my first article was how to Shave Like Your Grandpa, which was about safety razor shaving. If your listeners haven't tried that, it's pretty awesome. Just give it a try. It makes shaving very affordable and

makes it much more of a ritual experience. As opposed to just using a Gillette Mach 3 and just doing it real quick, right? Yeah, doing it really quick. It makes it more easy to get the brush and the cool shaving soap. So yeah, doing it real quick, right? Yeah, doing it really quick. It's mixing them. We have to get the brush and the cool shaving soap. So, yeah, I mean, started it and it just, like, sort of just languished in obscurity for a while. But then, like, in March, three months after I started it, it started getting picked up on, like, dig.com, Reddit.

This is, like, when dig was, like, a big deal. Yeah. Yeah. dot com reddit not this like when dig was like a big deal yeah yeah and uh people it was sort of on the radar and that's from there we just uh took off from there yeah what i mean what i love about it is like it's very unique it's just got the old school feel and design and vibe and very vintage like you said if you guys are listening and you're by computer check it out art of manliness dot com you'll see all the different uh categories where it's you know dressing and grooming uh health and sports manly skills money and career relationships and family which are very

similar to a lot of other lifestyle type blogs but the way that you you know the the headlines that you have are very different and the content is very unique kind of like the one i'm looking at right now is how to sustain a long distance relationship. Five tips I learned from my World War II grandpa. And it's got like love letters, like vintage love letters of like what he said and how it worked out. And so it's like this different way of looking at becoming a man. And why do you think so many men have kind of lost the art of being- The art of manliness. lost the art of being the art of manliness. Yeah.

So that's, it's a really, uh, complicated, nuanced question. Um, so yeah, we get a lot of the inspiration from my, like from the past,

from like my grandfather and like the 19th century. I mean, I like guys like resonate with that sort of thing. And I think a lot of guys today resonate with that. I'm not saying all guys, but a lot of guys, um, because like there was sort of a clear cut definition of like what it meant to be a man. Right. Um, and today,

because of, uh, just changes in our, in our culture and our society, um, things aren't as clear cut and that's, you know, for better or for worse, right. There's, there's some good things about that. And there's some bad things about that because one of the bad things is just a lack of clarity, right? And that's sort of, that can create anxiety and just like, man, what, what does it mean to be a man when, um, there's like no, you know, preset roles or whatever. Um, so yeah, there's a whole bunch of, uh, factors involved. So yeah, you could say that, uh, you know, the women's movement and sort of the changes that happened, uh, in our culture as a consequence of that might have contributed to that. But I think the big thing is like when people ask me that question, they're always looking for that simple answer. Like it's the

economy or it's like feminism or whatever. I think it's much bigger than that. And the thing that like I think why we've sort of lost like the lost art of the lost art of man and what lost, what it means to be a man is that it's modern entity. It's just like modern life, right? Like we don't have very many opportunities to like be the man. Yeah. Like go and hunt and cause it's already, someone's already doing it for us. Someone's already doing for you. Um, you know, just, uh, just things like, like being strong, like you don't, like you could go your entire life, right. For like, you know, across cultures and for across time, like being a man meant like being current, you know, courageous in battle and like fighting and like having fit being physically strong, being a warrior, but also, um, you know, providing for your family and being a father and

all this other stuff. But like most guys today can like go there and their entire life without ever getting in a fight. right? Like a fist fight. Right. Yeah. Go to private school. Go to the perfect school. Yeah, exactly. Nice neighborhoods with no crime.

Stay at home until you're 35. Type thing, yeah. Most guys don't really have to – you can get by without being physically strong, guys don't really have to like you know you can get by without being physically strong which you know for a long time uh was sort of a defining uh characteristic of of being a man right like you were stronger than children and women right because of biology um there are i'm just saying there's you know there are strong women out there um i've seen them on crossfit sure competitions whatever the the women out there now are like almost fitter than most men. Yeah, there's some really crazy fit guys out there.

And they're driven to be fit. And we can get in a second, but what were you about to say? But yeah, I was just going to say like most guys, like you don't have to be – you can be sort of like not very strong and not very physically active. And like you're going to do okay in life. You'll survive. You can even thrive right because that's what the environment uh require not requires but like you can that's

what the environment allows yeah there's a lot of uh not physically fit at all individual men who have used you know their minds to create something incredible or develop technology and be in that type of industry and they never have to you know use their body in that physical way yeah and speaking of technology i think that's another aspect of it right um technology so there's a nassim talib or who wrote anti-fragile is his last name is that how you pronounce it i'm not sure talib i've heard it pronounced different ways anyways he has like this book of aphorisms where he kind of like says he's like cool sayings, pithy sayings that, you know, impart a bigger truth. Anyways, one of these aphorisms that he says is the opposite of manliness isn't cowardice.

It's technology. That's interesting. Yeah. Or the computer, right? Just sitting at the computer. Yeah. Technology is replacing the need of like men in a lot of ways. And what's funny is that men are the ones who usually develop technology.

And as I studied history, so in a way, men are making themselves less manly. less manly. It's funny because as you read history, men have societies that have had this sort of anxiety about technology in regards to manhood. I'll go all the way back to the ancient Greeks. Some of the stories that were about

the Trojan War, not the Iliad itself, but there's other Greek stories where they mention the Trojan War. They talk about the difference between Homer, or between Achilles and Odysseus. And Achilles is kind of put out as like super manly guy, you know, even though he had this sort of this puerile anger, like he fought man to man, you know, against, what's the guy, guy, leader of Troy, my mind blank. Anyways, like he used his physical strength and prowess. Odysseus, on the other hand, used technology to win with the Trojan horse, right?

So he's like a little bit less manly because he didn't use that, his actual physical strength or ability to fight. And it's funny, you see this play out too. Anytime there's been sort of a technological revolution, the industrial revolution, you see the same out too um anytime there's been sort of a an economic or a technological revolution the industrial revolution you see the same sort of ink like like what does it mean to be a man when there's like this machine that can do the work that you know required manly strength so you see it like in american folktales like the story of paul bunyan if you guys remember the disney version of it so like you know paul bunyan's a big burly guy Superman Lee can cut down entire forces one fell swoop of his axe

but then along comes this like puny little city slicker guy with the handlebar mustache with a steam-powered Mechanized saw and he challenges Paul Bunyan to a Contest who can cut off? Yeah. And the machine guy, the puny guy, wins. And so what Paul Bunyan, he just, Paul Bunyan has to leave because there's no need

for manly, strong men anymore. So he goes off to Alaska with Babe the Blue Ox where he can be a man, you know, where it's sort of needed. And the same thing with like the story of... So sad. Yeah, it is sad.

Or John, here's another sad one, right? This is even sadder. Like John Henry, the, uh, the rail layer, like he hammered rails or spikes into railroad ties. Anyways, like he was like the best at it. Anyways, then a machine came and said, challenged him to a contest. Like, okay, John Henry will have a contest, which either man or machine can, um, lay the most rail.

John Henry wins, but he dies at the end. Jesus. So it's the same sort of thing. Oh, my gosh. So it's just like technology is the opposite of man. It's hard to beat technology. It is. It's hard to beat.

And here's another. You can go kind of in a more extreme way of how technology is making men obsolete in some ways is that scientists have actually discovered ways to create sperm cells from a just a female like a stem cell what so you don't even need a man to create a baby anymore exactly what that's the idea that they could they could do that i mean they haven't like you know done it done it yet but like they've said that's possible we can we've done something similar we that's a possibility what so again But like they've said that's possible. We've done something similar. That's a possibility. What?

So again, that's technology. So yeah, basically that's making like, you know, one of the roles of a man throughout time in cultures is like, you know, the procreator, right? You provide your genetic material, right? You're supposed to be the ladies' man, right? Well, technology is getting you to a place where you don't even have to have that role no way this is crazy so it's great so there's that you have all this going on and then you know you add on um just sort of the economic changes that have happened where you know women entering the workforce um and you know before like you know a woman needed a man to um provide right for her

and her her children and that's not necessarily the case anymore. I mean, he doesn't need it. And in some cases, women are actually a lot better suited at working in that position than the man in many cases. Yeah, exactly. And so you're in this environment where it's like, okay, what does it mean to be a man, right? And people say it's uh it's like not important like you know it's silly to think about you know if you're manly or not if you're a man but like i don't know i think it's sort of like deeply ingrained within us right yeah we want to

know that we have this status as as a man and it means something because even the people who say like oh it doesn't mean anything and you know it's stupid to think about that. They always, they oftentimes do this thing where they're like, well, I'm actually more manly because I don't care about me being manly. But like by saying that, like, no, you, you, you, you care about being manly. Um, you're just kind of doing it in a weird way, you know, like it's, it's not acknowledging it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, I'm so secure in my masculinity that i can not be concerned about my masculinity it's like no well you're concerned about it because you say you're you're making a point to tell me that you're secure in your mouth

so yeah it's it's an interesting it's an interesting crazy interesting new world but why don't you say that women you know even though they the women's movement i guess over the last 50 years where they more come into the work uh workplace where they're you know being more independent where they're making their own money and really taking over in some ways um wouldn't you say that women still really want a man to be a man and they want them to be take the lead yeah be the stand be this calm force that doesn't waver back and forth and allow a woman to be you know flowing and blowing in the wind and do what they want to do but have this strong manly force that they can come back to and be confident and safe in. Yeah, I think so. Because it comes down to just biology, right?

Yeah. And sort of what we're evolved for. There was a really interesting New York Times article we kind of hit on a few months ago on a blog post about this very topic, about sort of just the love life of couples where both the man and the woman or the woman is actually making more money than the man, you know, they sort of like, you know, very forward. And these women were, you know, they're executives, they're very forward thinking, very, you know, very progressive, like, yes, you know, that's, but at the same time they talked about, um, you know, they, they, you know, advocated for like, you know, we split the chores at home, 50 um whatever whatever um but then

you still had these women like saying like but i still want like my husband to like take the lead yep um in the relationship at times because like it makes me feel good right like it makes me feel womanly or something like that and they talked about you know even you know they interviewed um marriage counselors and they said that i mean yeah when that's even you know they interviewed um marriage counselors and they said that i mean yeah when that's one of a big problem um that they're seeing more and more today is where men because of that you know they've been told their life like you need to sort of just you know don't don't take the lead don't be assertive in the relationship try to you know be uh egalitarian as much as you can which is which is noble and great, but it sort of saps

some of that visceral romance from the relationship. And the, you know, the wives are like, you know, these CEO wives are like, would you like, you know, make a decision about something like where we're going to go for dinner and like, tell me just what we're going to do. And then, you know, you take the lead in the bedroom as, as well mean, they're looking and it's sort of an awkward time. So we don't know what to do because like we're told one thing, but then our biology and our emotions respond to something else. And so we're in this situation where, you know, it takes two to tango, but like none of us know what to do. Right. We just step on each other's toes.

Yeah. It's interesting because, you know, I'm living in L.A. right now. You're in Oklahoma, I believe, right? Yeah. And I was talking to a few girlfriends recently, friends of mine who are women. I'm actually in a relationship, but friends of mine who are women who are telling me

how it's been really a challenge for them to date right now because so many guys don't want to take the lead. They can't make a decision on where to go. Like to take the woman out there, like asking the woman, you know, what do you want to do? What do you want to do? As opposed to just being like, I'm going to take you out. Here's where we're going. Like I'm picking you up now this time. Yeah. Where this, you know, and, and these women, friends of mine who are just like, you know, I've been single for a couple of years. I'm going out on dates a lot, but this seems just so helpless or hopeless with the men. And maybe it's an L.A. thing because there's more like options for men.

So they're a little scatterbrained. But I don't know. It feels like women are like struggling to feel like they can drop into a feminine state because they feel like they have to be in control so much with their job. And then when they come home, their man can't make a decision, so they need to be in control. So things get done. And that there's always this like, not guard up, but kind of like a block of their natural feminine state up. And I feel like that's, yeah, that's a challenge right now yeah it is a super challenge it's i you see it a lot with younger guys right like in their 20s and 30s yeah um what's up with younger

guys why are what's up with them and what are their biggest challenges moving forward like the guys that just graduated or in college so yeah that's that's a good question there's a lot of um i think problems facing younger guys um you, you know, for starters, so like, you know, you can, that people have talked about the economy, right. That's a challenge for particularly for men, um, because jobs, you know, 50 years ago, you could get a job in a factory, uh, and have a middle-class life and, uh, retire and you'd have a pension and life would be great. Um, that's no longer an option anymore. Right. And, uh, so that's, that's, that's something that young men are struggling with, particularly men who don't go to college or who are in the, um, you know, lower socioeconomic, um, range, um,

in our culture and our society. So that's, that's a challenge for sure. I think another challenge for young men would be the relationship thing, right? Um, like that you're talking about. So a lot of these young guys, they grew up in a time where it's like, you were told, okay, look, um, you know, things should be an egalitarian relationship, which, okay, look, I, I think that's an admirable thing to shoot for, but it's also, while they're being told that- There's got to be roles as well. There's got to be roles, because roles bring some sort of- Structure.

Structure. Right? You know what to do. There's no roles, and it's like, yeah, like you said, we're both jumping on each other's toes, and we're- Both jumping on each other's toes, and we don't know what to do, and it's just a lot of frustration. It's like playing a sport.

There has to be roles on a team sport. And everyone can't be the point guard in basketball. Yeah. And everyone can't be the shooting guard. Someone's got to go rebound. Yeah, exactly. Someone's got to play defense. It's like you've got to give and take.

Yep. I agree. So those are some younger problems. There's general problems facing men in general. For example, boys. There's a great article in Esquire about what we're doing to young boys, particularly with drugs like Ritalin and that sort of thing, where basically we're drugging boys for being boys.

Right. To relax, calm down. Yeah, we're drugging boys for being boys. Right. To like relax, calm down. Yeah. We want them to sit skill still during class. Um, and, uh, so we hear take this drug, everything's fine. Um, which I think is horrible. So like, you know, the great, there's a, there's a great, um, uh, there's going to be a great, uh, Ken Burns documentary coming out called the Roosevelt's and it's about the Roosevelt family, Teddy Roosevelt, Franklin Roosevelt, and Eleanor Roosevelt.

And in sort of the pre-clips, there's talking about Teddy Roosevelt, who is a hero of mine. If you go to the site, you'll probably see that we talk about Teddy Roosevelt all the time. He's just a cool president. He's a manly dude. But this biographer said that if Theodore Roosevelt as a boy was around today Like they would drug Theodore Roosevelt sure because he had so much energy and he was always doing like just different stuff and getting into things and They would have drugged and we wouldn't have had that a Teddy Roosevelt for a president

Yeah, so I mean I think I'm it's kind of scary to think about Some of the potential that we're missing out on from these young boys. Who are getting drugged up. Who are getting drugged up. And the thing is, a lot of these drugs, like, they, like, you know, make kids suicidal. I mean, they do some really, it's just like messes with your brain. It makes you very insecure or question yourself. Like, am I bad for having energy and doing this or you know yeah guilty

all these things so i mean that's that i think it's a challenge too because um you know a lot of the school systems are set up for you know it girls are really adept for how school is set up where you sit still for a long time and you you know you know get a lot you cooperate um that sort of thing and uh not so much for boys so that's a challenge i think all right man i feel like if schools just had kids before every day run for 30 minutes like mandatory 30 minute run on the track yeah like the rest of the day would be a lot better yeah i i agree something like that right something yeah who knows that may not be the answer but interesting so what is what what do you think is the biggest concern for on the issues we've talked about a little bit already but for the modern man what's the main two or three things

that a modern man deals with modern man so i mean the content that most people, most of the guys who read our site that resonate with or that they find the most useful are like style content because like they're looking for a way to feel more confident. They're looking for a way to feel more like a grown man trying to transition from their present. Yeah, not a boy. Social skills. I guess it's because of the Internet and like video games or i don't know whatever there's like a lot of young men who have a hard time just interacting with people um you know adeptly right um and so like you know just basic social skills are guys are looking for that sort of thing because the social skills goes a long way i mean not not only a lot of guys there's a you know, just basic social skills are guys are looking for that sort of thing because social skills goes a long way.

I mean, not only a lot of guys, there's a whole industry out there. You probably know about it, like with pickup artist stuff where they focus on sort of social skills towards, you know, how to pick up girl, women or whatever. But like just like just basic social skills, right? Like how to carry a conversation, how to introduce yourself, how to be self aware, um, and you know, understanding how people are perceiving you. Like not only that, that, that applies to a whole broad range of human activities. It helped, it'll help you be better in your work. It will help you in your romantic life. And you don't have to like do any tricks, um, as well. You just have to like, be able to carry on a conversation with somebody with somebody um it'll help you and your community

life i mean it makes you a just a better person i feel like there's a lot of young men now for whatever reason um who just didn't acquire those social skills so whenever we supposed to like share that sort of thing or pose that sort of thing like people like that's some of our most popular content. Right. What do you say, what do you think is the ultimate man for a woman? What, who is that man? What does he look like? How does he speak? How does he act? What does he do?

I, I, it's, it's going to be different for every, for every gal. Um, you know, cause every gal has different tastes, um, and who they find attractive. Like, you know, there's a, um, I was talking, there's a couple at my church where, um, the girl was talking about how she met her husband and she's like, what did it for her was that he played the nose flute, you know, just like you said it was funny, you know, and like just endeared her to her. And like, you know, if I did that, I'm sure if I did that for my wife, I would be like, what the heck, you're a weirdo. Don't do that. But, you know, just just endeared her to her and like you know if i did that i'm sure if i did that for my wife i would be like what the heck you're a weirdo don't do that but you know just different folks for different strokes i mean but i think there's some kind of general i mean the

research has shown this as well like um uh psychological and sociological research has shown that there's just certain attributes that um women find most women find attractive in a men um i mean i'm talking well-adjusted women here um so just a guy with confidence and we're mostly talking women in america i'm assuming women in america i mean actually no there's this sort of cross-cultural okay um in a lot of ways so a guy with confidence right and it's not cocky confidence it's just confidence like quiet confidence like he he has a mission in life he knows what he's doing like he he can be assertive and stand up for himself and um you know whatever has a mission in life um a sense of humor can help out a lot and uh is attractive in women and or in men in men and then uh just being kind

caring compassionate uh those are David Buss, the evolutionary psychologist done across cultural study. I mean, those are characteristics that both men and women find attractive in a mate. Kind, caring, compassionate. And then, you know, there are other things beyond that. It's going to be a matter of personal taste. You know, some women are going to like guys with brown hair, beefier guys skinnier guys like you know there's this whole idea that you got to be like if you want to attract the ladies you got to like be jacked well you know some women just don't find that attractive i don't you know like you know i'm i'm dark complected i have brown hair brown eyes like my wife sort of likes that she likes that in a guy actually guys with brown hair tan skin that

does it for me right you know so you just gotta i mean it's i think there's some general things you can do just so develop confidence um develop some assertiveness uh develop a sense of humor and develop some compassion and being kind and caring so let's talk let's speak into that then so those sound like three or four different things that all women want. Um, so if you're like, you know, a man that's not getting the woman you want or not, you know, getting the women you want on the relationship, what's, have you written about or given some exercises on how to be more confident, how to be more caring, how to be, I'm not sure the other two you said, but do you have exercises or some like simple things that people could take on right now? Sure, sure. So yeah, I mean, we've, uh, we've written some content about being confident and being assertive, um, and just standing up for

yourself, like having a backbone and being assertive. It doesn't mean you have to be a jerk, right? It just means, you know, setting some boundaries and not letting people cross that. Right. Um, so, you know So just speak up for yourself sometimes. If someone wants you to do something and it doesn't fit your schedule or you just don't want to do it, it's okay to say no. And I feel like there's a lot of people who have a hard time saying no. It's something I struggle with still. But learn how to say no because it might not fit your schedule. Confidence comes with developing confidence really is a fake it until you make it thing, I think, in a lot of cases.

So you just have to act confident and you'll become confident. And then while you're acting, you have to actually do things that will make you confident. Does that make sense? So like, you know, act like you're, you know, if you are, I mean, if you're into, I don't know, whatever it is, like computer science or something like that. Right. Um, you know, act like you're the most confident guy and try to be the best computer science guy that you can be. And there'll probably be some, be some woman who will be, find that sexy and attractive in some way. And that's the thing. Like there's this great book. Um, I definitely recommend guys check out, it's called swoon and it's, it's about, uh, swoon S W O O N. And it's just about, uh, like ladies,

famous ladies, men from history. Shut up. Yeah. Uh, let me see what book this is. It's a, who's this by? It's by a gal nina malkin is that who yeah i think she's like she's like a historian or like a literature professor or something anyways what i found interesting about this book is like some of like the these like ladies mans from history like they weren't like attractive dudes no right they had a charisma right they had a charisma about him right and like one of them is lord byron uh the writer and like the guy had a club foot um you know he had some other physical deformities and like he wasn't like a very he could be unpleasant at times but

like women loved him like they just wanted they'd flock to him and like cheat on their husbands to be with him and they're like okay okay, what's going on here? And he just – he had that charisma. He had that confidence. He had a skill and an art, right, that made – that women found attractive. I'm looking – it's called Swoon, Great Seducers and Why Women Love Them. Yeah. By Betsy Priole, I think it is.

Betsy Priole. It's an interesting book. So kind of of historical analysis because you get you get an insight about uh ladies men's from that you wouldn't think they weren't like these super stunned physical exactly like another one that i thought surprising was um the architect frank lloyd wright um women were apparently crazy about him i mean he wasn't he's not admirable because like you know i think he you know he had affairs on his wife which isn't cool but um he was like this you know

kind of arc you know geeky architect that wasn't you know you you're stereotypical alpha male right but you know women women flock to him so because because like he had a confidence and he had like he was passionate about something he had a mission and like was passionate about something. He had a mission. Women definitely dig that in a guy. So it doesn't matter what it is. Find something. You're going to find a woman who will probably find that attractive. Sure.

And be confident in whatever that is. Yeah. Now let's talk about men and manly men in relationships and marriages. Now you touched on it in a second ago, but is the definition of a manly man, someone that is committed to and having one relationship, you know, marriage for the rest of their life, or is a manly man, someone that has multiple women, multiple relationships, marriages, mistresses, what, you know, it kind of goes against the alpha male biological feelings of wanting to, I guess, spread your seed or whatever. Sure. That's a great, great question. So yeah, for, for, for across time and across cultures,

being a man, like, you know, un vero, un veroo umro hombre. I don't know it's like an Italian true man Like that was the thing you had to have not just one partner like but multiple partners, right? And this was you know true and hunter-gatherer tribes and even through ancient cultures like you know, you see this in Ancient is ancient Israel right Solomon and David had wives and concubines. You've got, what's that guy's name from Mongolia? Genghis Khan, who apparently, some large percentage of the world's population

descended from Genghis Khan. Because he had so many wives or whatever. So yeah, there's definitely sort of like that this happens in the animal world as well. To be the alpha, you need to spread your seed in as many places as you can.

But look, I guess if you're looking at sort of a biological and in some places, in some cultures that was the case too then yeah being the manly man went like having as many partners as you could and not only you know having partners but actually fathering children that was an important part of that um distinction is that you couldn't just have lots of concubines you needed to create progeny with them as well right

um but yeah you know today like most you know since about you know for the past couple hundred years um monogamy is sort of the standard and like look i'm a i'm a religious guy that's sort of the standard we set out and like that's what it means for me it means to be a manly guy so being a committed relationship is important to me um so that's what i think. And some people will say, no, it's just mean sleeping around as many, many people as you can. Um, but I mean, that's what it's complicated. Yeah. I mean, it's, listen, I have thoughts where I'm like, I don't know if I can be with one woman for the rest of my life. Like that's how

my body tells me that, you know, my mind, I can justify it. And if I'm in a loving relationship, then I don't think about that. Uh uh but it's kind of like you know it's just like why does my body tell me something different yeah and why do i have to fight something yeah so i mean yeah there's definitely some of those biological uh drives it's kind of funny so the the ancients ancient romans had this sort of distinction there was a natural man and then there was man man and natural man was sort of like that's every every male is born natural man and he had sort of these Primal dries and urges and to become a man You had to sort of stifle or kill those urges. Mmm by developing virtue interesting

But for the Romans I'm not saying that they were monogamous, strict monogamous, they weren't. A lot of them had multiple wives and concubines, whatever. But that sort of idea, I think it's kind of cool. And you saw it carry over into Christianity a little bit, where there is a natural

man. We are born naturally with these sort of natural urges, and the task in life then is to become man. Just a man. To overcome those urges. And the task in life then is to become man, just a man. To overcome those urges. Overcome those urges by developing, yeah, like basically just taming the animal. Not killing it, but taming it. Is that a good thing, to tame the animal?

I think it's good to tame the animal. You shouldn't just kill it because those drives and those those urges um are sort of like the the machine that gets things going that's true and a lot is done get things done yeah right there's like this cool idea uh in ancient rome uh called of thumos which is it was sort of translated as like heat or like energy or like anger sometimes um it's not just roman it's like the greeks had it was actually it's a greek concept thumos anyways um the goal in life wasn't to like extinguish your thumos it was to kind of use that as the fuel to do great things and to do awesome cool awesome things that will leave a legacy right so yeah don't don't kill the animal within you just just tame them and use them

appropriately so you think it is the manly thing to do to be in one relationship when you find that person being you know be committed when you make that commitment stay in that commitment yeah don't waver yeah i'm not saying it's like it's not it's it's not it's that it's easy um it's it's a challenge right but um you know it's not impossible because i there's lots of people who've done it who are you, 90 years old and they love each other. Sure. And how long have you been married? You're with Kate, right?

Yeah, Kate. We've been married for nine years. And she works with you on the side as well, right? Yeah. So what's that like, one, working together as a married couple and working on manly topics? What is that like? Yeah. So she helps me write some of the content and a lot of the content that we write, um, is applicable to both men and women, except we just kind of put it, I give it sort of

a manly spin towards it, right. Make it more appealing to guys. Yes. Cause it's like career advice, relationship advice that that's applicable to men and women, uh, financial advice, whatever. that's applicable to men and women, financial advice, whatever. So, yeah, I mean, it's interesting for sure because it's made us, because we run a blog about the art of manliness, it's made us a little bit more, I guess, self-conscious or aware of, like, gender roles and things like that. And I don't think we would have otherwise would have been if it were not for the blog. Because, like, you read about this stuff, you're reading about the sociobiology and the anthropology of gender roles.

And I don't know, it just it makes it brings to the forefront of your relationship. And I think most people, most couples don't really think about it. They sort of take it for granted. That's kind of a weird thing that I think a lot of couples don't have to think about or deal with. Right. But I mean, we work. I mean, it works out great. We love working with each other.

I'm not saying that it's like all just flowers and honeybees and birds. We have arguments. Sure. It's like any business relationship. And it's just a little more difficult because we're also married. So how do you – because this is your passion and it's like you think it, also married so how do you try how do you you know because this is your this is your passion and it's like you think it breathe it and live it all day long it doesn't feel like work to you so how do you turn it off and be like okay i don't

think you can i mean everyone says like oh yeah like i but you love it so much that you can't it's hard and it's just hard and i mean i think it's important to just unplug you know like we try to we're trying to be very good about, from, from when the kids wake up until 12 o'clock when we, before we dropped them off at my wife's mom's house, like we just tried to, it's, it's kid time. And then when we pick them up at six until when they go to bed, it's kid time. Like we don't, we turn off the computers, put away the cell phones, put away the tablets and it's just relationship time. And then when the kids go to bed, my wife and phones, put away the tablets, and it's just relationship time. And then when the kids go to bed, my wife and I, we try to have mommy-daddy time.

It's time to nurture that relationship outside of the blog. But yeah, blog's going to come up during personal time. Personal stuff's going to come up during the blog time. But one thing that's helped us is, again, establishing roles within the business, right? And knowing, because at the beginning, we really, like I started the blog, and then we started kind of working together,

and then it was just sort of like, it was sort of kind of amorphous for a while, and then we had, okay, we need to establish roles. Like, here's what you do, here's what I do, because before it was just sort of like, okay, did you do this, or should I be doing that, or what's going on? So now we have like, okay, this is what I do.

This is what you do. And then we'll meet together every morning or every afternoon before we start our workday to sort of sync up. That's pretty cool. I mean, do you guys – this is full-time for both of you, correct? Correct. And it brings in full-time income for you guys to live comfortably and have employees and do the whole thing. And how many employees do you have? Well, we have a whole bevy of staff.

Part-time here and there? Part-time, so we're there. Then we have a guy in Colorado, Jeremy Andover. He's our managing editor. So it's us three primarily who kind of make the ship run. Sure, gotcha. And what's that like for you, being able to – you used to be,

you were doing law. Is that right? You're doing, you're going to be, I never practiced law. I mean, I, I, by the time I graduated law school, like the site was earning like enough revenue where I could like eke out a living and like try to make a go at it full time. And you loved it a lot more than law. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, I enjoyed law. Like a lot of people like said, like they hate law. There's some people who hate law. I enjoyed law school, and I think I would have had a pretty fulfilling and rewarding career there. But this was a – I don't know. This opportunity came up, and it was a lot more – it was just interesting, and I wanted to see where it went, so I took it.

And how far do you see it going for you? What do you see coming from this? and how far do you see it going for you like what do you see coming from this that's that's the the million dollar question because i mean look what i'm doing like writing online for a living uh it's only been around for maybe 10 years right yeah that's like yeah being like 2005 was kind of like 2006 when blogging was like coming on and people were making money and so um and it's i don't know like it's it's hard to say like with most jobs right like my dad he was a federal game warden like there was a desk you know a predefined career path like you knew you had job security because the government needed game game wardens to check duck hunters um with blogging though like man it's it's it's new

so you're you're always. So everything's always changing. Things come and go and you have to adapt. For example, one way we've had to adapt is beginning the website, Dig, these social media sites were a big source of our… Sending a lot of traffic. Sending a lot of traffic. But then Dig.com… Died.

Died. And it's like, okay, crap. What do I do now? So you got to learn SEO. You got to learn another strategy. You got to build your own following. And now you have a huge, you know, following on social media, right? You've got like a half a million fans on Facebook or.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's really big. Yep. It's gotten really big. Newsletter, Twitter, Instagram, Google plus. It's all over the place. That's great.

So basically you're, you had to rely on one thing before and then when that died out, were you like, let's create a social media strategy, let's do these other things to get traffic or? Yeah, I mean, I didn't really, I guess I didn't,

I mean, I thought it was an important place. I just, I think it's good when you're online to be as in many places as you can be because the nature of the internet is it's going to fragment your audience right right certain people are only going to use tumblr certain people are only going to use facebook certain people are only going to use rss feed certain people are only going to use

you know listen to podcasts um but they all want to be like they they they would love the art of manliness if they had it in front of them. So I think it's a good strategy to, you know, I guess, not to be network neutral, is the word right? Platform neutral. Right? Interesting. What's the biggest traffic source for you right now? Facebook is our biggest traffic source. Really? Well, yeah. Because whenever I share one of your articles, it gets so many shares. Yeah. Three shares. It's crazy.

I mean, we're fortunate that we have a lot of just very actively engaged Facebook fans. And, yeah, I mean, we just put stuff. And, like, people always ask me, like, what's your Facebook strategy? And, like, there's, like, no really strategy. Like, I publish a post i'll i'll share that piece of content on my facebook page that's it yeah that's it that's funny interesting nice man well where do you see the man the man's man the manly man the real man moving forward uh over the next 20 50 years like how what what are what's next for us in this, in this women, you know, as things

are evolving and women are, are moving into the workforce, like you said, and wanting to be independent and which I don't think is anything wrong with that. It's just how things are evolving. What, what should men be thinking about, you know, whether you're a 20 year old man or a 30 or 40 year old, what should we be thinking about continually to focus on to become better versions of ourselves moving forward? Yeah, that's a great question. We kind of, the last few months, I've been exploring that question, right? cultures and what it means today or what we can do to sort of tap into that sort of primals, the right word, but sort of primal, those instincts that we have on what it means to be a man.

And I think the best thing you can do, right, like we're never going to go back to, you know, barring some catastrophe, like that annihilates civilization. And we go back to like the road you know how it was in the book the road right i don't think we're ever going to go back to a time where it was like you know our ancient forebears right where right men every man battled and every you know women just you know took care of the home and like farm you know took care of planting a garden whatever and took care of kids um but we still have that sort of genetic or psychological baggage, right, that evolved with that. So my advice would be is to find ways in any way you can to tap into that.

And it could be, you know, for example, like being physically strong. I think it's stupid and kind of silly you can say right but like I think it feels awesome to do like a heavy deadlift it makes me feel manly I mean I used to not think that but I got into deadlift like powerlifting I was like man this is really cool yeah um finding ways to you know take the lead in a relationship doesn't mean you have to be some jerk uh patriarchal jerk about it but you you know, find ways you can, you know, do you just tell you when you ask a woman on a date, say, Hey, instead of saying, Hey, I like to go out, what do you want to do? Say, have a plan, pick up the phone, give her a call. Here's

what we're going to do. Would you like to come? Right. And there you go. And then find ways to lead in your family. Right. I think, uh, having a family is a great opportunity for, for men to, to take the lead and, and, you know, not just with your wife, but with your kids as well. So like one thing I'm trying to do as a new dad, cause I'm not that new kids, almost four years old, but, um, um, you know, have a, have a developing a mission for our family. And, you know, it's, it's amazing. Like you have this chance to like pass on you know values that are important to you to to your kids right and i you get in that you're gonna they're they're gonna be there after you're dead yeah and it's just it's it's very scary and humbling but also like really exciting at the same time you can have that sort of influence on a person um so i mean those are i mean just find ways to

tap into sort of that ancient man stuff that that lies dormant in us and any way you can doesn't mean you have to like go off to war but maybe it could mean you uh take up brazilian jiu-jitsu or something like that interesting so that's my that's my take on it and i mean it. And I mean, and like, what's the result is like, okay, what's the point? Like you feel more manly. What does that mean? I think it just, that, that sort of confidence and feeling like that carries over into other aspects of your life. And it just makes you, it makes you a better husband, makes you a better boyfriend. It makes you a better, uh, business owner or employee or a community member. It just, it just, I don't know, business owner or employee or a community member it just it just i don't know it just infuses your life with a little bit more of them and vigor i like it when when when do you think art of

manliness will have succeeded i think it already has man like i mean it's it's amazing i get letters like actual handwritten letters um in my po box um every week and they're all thank-you letters where it's like guys who are telling you're just sharing with me like how the site has changed their life you know they talked about how they were in a bad place you know they just got a divorce or maybe they broke up with their girlfriend or you know something they were depressed I mean something was wrong with their life and they stumbled upon the art of manliness because their friends shared one of our kind of more silly posts.

We did a post like how to poop like a samurai. But they stuck around and dug into our archives and saw some of our content that just sort of a little bit more deeper and they got hooked on it. And they just started reading it every day and actually putting into practice the things we we write about and it changed their life like they they they talk about how like you know i'm feeling more confident i've got a great i'm in a great relationship now my or my relationship is better with my girlfriend or my wife. I mean, those are the kind of letters I get every week.

And I mean, to me, that's being successful right there. I love it. Well, before I ask the final question, which is what I ask all my guests, I want to make sure everyone goes and checks out artofmanliness.com, artofmanliness.com, and everywhere on Facebook. Make sure to follow Brett and Art ofmanliness.com, Artofmanliness.com, and everywhere on Facebook. Make sure to follow Brett and Art of Manliness on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, everywhere.

Got a great shop. If you go to the store on Artofmanliness.com, got a great shop. You can get some cool mugs. You can get some cool T-shirts, some notebooks. You've got some amazing things you said that are coming out soon that I'll let you guys subscribe to the newsletter and see and wait and see what those cool manly products are. If you're a man, I recommend getting them. If you're a woman listening, I recommend getting them for your man or a man friend. They're really cool. And check everything out at artofmanliness.com. And go into the final

question, which is what is your definition of greatness? My definition of greatness is doing what you can where you are. And this is saying, okay, whatever that art act, well, that part, wherever you are in life, whatever capabilities you have, do it to the utmost and try to make a change there. That's it. Brad McKay. Brad McKay, I appreciate you, man. Thanks for coming on the show. Thanks, Lewis. It's been a pleasure.

I hope you guys enjoyed this episode. I was very engaged in this topic because obviously I'm a man and there are things that I've had to learn over the years based on relationships and understanding roles and being confused in roles and all these different things. So for me, it was very insightful to have this conversation and I hope to have Brett back on here in the near future. Make sure to check out artofmanliness.com to learn more. We've got all the show notes and some cool videos from this episode over at lewishouse.com slash 84.

That's lewishouse.com slash 84 to check out all the manly notes from this episode. And I appreciate you guys. We're going to keep ramping these episodes up with amazing, incredible, inspiring, influential guests. We've been doing twice a week lately. So if you have yet to subscribe, please subscribe over on iTunes, over on Stitcher. Leave us a review on iTunes as it'll help get the word out

about the School of Greatness podcast. And I'm just so grateful for everyone who listens and for you for taking the time to listen today. It means the world to me. I appreciate you so much. And I'm excited to see what you're creating in your life and what great things lie ahead. So again, thanks to guys again for sharing this online,

for tweeting about it, putting it on Facebook with your friends, for subscribing. I appreciate you guys so much. You guys know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great. Juggalos.