The School of Greatness - 85 Tucker Max on Relationships, Fear of Monogamy and How to Shift From a Destructive Habit

Episode Date: August 20, 2014

"I value her in the relationship more than a random sexual encounter." - Tucker Max To learn more about the show, we welcome you to LewisHowes.com/85

This is episode number 85 with Tucker Max. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Hey everyone, thanks so much for joining me today

on the School of Greatness podcast. I'm your host, Lewis Howes, and this is the second part of a two-part series with the one and only Tucker Max. And if you haven't listened to the first episode yet, make sure to go check that one out over at lewishowes.com slash 78. That's the 78th episode where Tucker and I dive in deep about how to market your book and sell thousands of copies

of your book yourself without a publisher. And he is really the king of this. He's got three different books that have been on the New York Times bestseller list at the same time. I think there's only two other people who have ever done that. Malcolm Gladwell is one of them. So he is an authority in that topic for sure. A lot of people love that episode. So go check that episode out. The second part of the episode, we start diving into a few of the topics of Tucker's personal life. And I realized that it wasn't a good fit to have all in one episode. So we broke it up in two episodes. And in this episode, we'll really talk about how fame and money have affected Tucker's

happiness. We talk about the challenges and the fears of being in a dedicated relationship from Tucker's experience. We also talk about how Tucker is using psychoanalysis to delve into his relationship issues from the past. We talk about how Tucker meditates and his thoughts on meditation, how Tucker used alcohol and women to deal with anxiety in the past and how he's shifted now out of that. We talk about Tucker's childhood and how it affected his drive to be successful and why he's been so successful. We talk about the emotional reasoning behind Tucker's passion for reading. If you go to this guy's house, he's got books everywhere.

All the walls are filled with bookshelves and all the books he's read. It's extremely impressive. We talk about the emotional reasoning behind this for why he reads so much. And then we talk about the biggest lesson Tucker has learned from starting a committed relationship. So I'm actually excited about this one. It was a lot of fun to have this conversation. I learned a lot about Tucker and why he does all that he does, so I hope you guys enjoy this, and let me know in the comments section

after you listen to this episode. In the comments section over at lewishouse.com slash 85, let me know if you've ever had some of these similar feelings about relationships. Go ahead and post them. Similar fears, similar anything, whatever that you've been affected by with relationships. Talk about the challenges, the fears. Let me know if you've had any of those similar feelings that Tucker talks about here. And I'll be interested to see where you guys are coming from as well.

So without further ado, let's go ahead and dive into this episode number 85 with the one and only Tucker Max. Unless you don't care about making sales and getting the book out there, you just want to say you have a book and be known as an author, then I guess that's the story. Yeah, then don't waste any time marketing the book. Right, exactly. No, like there are a lot of people who, you're exactly right, Lewis. They want to write a book because they want to be able to put it on their speaker page

and they can double their speaking fee. Totally fine. If that's your goal, just do a super professional book and don't spend one dime marketing because it doesn't matter. Right. It doesn't. Well, I mean, I want to, I actually want to transition into, uh, your personal life for a second and why you transition out of, uh, writing the books that you were writing about and to kind of doing what you're doing now, which is more writing about book marketing and doing the dating stuff. And also,

you know, just kind of changing things around in your life. You know, when I saw you last, you have a, I don't know if you're even, you know, public about this, but you're, you've got a, no, no. The one thing I know you're going to talk about the fact that I have a girlfriend, the thing I know you're about to talk about. Okay. Well, okay okay well you're you're kind of like taking it easy i'll say you're kind of like putting your roots you're putting your roots down and why is that and is that making you know is having a girlfriend and kind of like transitioning into other things is there a reason for that and um you know what kind of what's next for you with all this honestly man it just became one of those things where it was like there wasn't one day i woke up and i'm like oh i want to like put my

roots down and have a girlfriend and get married and have a family it's just like look when you're i always say it like this when you're 10 years old you love playing with gi joes when you're 20 like you that seems stupid right well it's sort of the same thing like when i was 20 all i wanted to do was get drunk and sleep with chicks and act like a fucking idiot and i did i acted like a moron for a long time and it was super fun right and then it just got kind of boring for me and you know like i happened to turn that sort of into a business and into a career sort of uh writing about that and so it kind of went a little longer than it might may have otherwise gone with me but i just don't i just don't feel like doing that anymore So it kind of went a little longer than it may have otherwise gone with me.

But I just don't feel like doing that anymore, dude. It's just that simple. I don't feel like waking up with a different girl every day or getting drunk and acting like an idiot, throwing up on myself. It's fun for a while, but after a while it's boring and I wanted to move on to the next part of my life. That was why I retired from Fratire. That's why I explicitly told my fans I'm not writing any more of these books.

I'm done with this. And then like it just became a thing. It was like what do I want to do? And it took me about a year, two years. But I realized like there's a million things I could do, right? But what are the two things I'm really good at? Well, I know books and book publishing really well. And I know girls and sort of dating and sex really well.

So I'm just teaching those two things because those two things are both areas that a lot of people want to be better at and I'm good at. What was stupid is I spent a lot of years giving people free advice, which is fine. I have no problem giving my friends advice. But we have a situation like my buddy with the book. It's like I'll tell someone once and then I get tired because I get the same question the same question the next day and they're like why don't you write this down and that's they're right i should if i write it down once that i don't have to fucking tell everyone right you know yeah so that's what i'm now and so you've got the podcast which is pretty cool you

know again i listened to an episode and i think it's amazing what you're up to um but what's you know this is going to last for a while too have you thought about like you know what's what you're going to be what you really want to be working on in five ten years kind know, this is going to last for a while too. Have you thought about like, you know, what's, what you're going to be, what you really want to be working on in five, 10 years, kind of like, this is stuff that you're really good at and you can make money at and you

can help a lot of people. But is there other things that you're like so extremely passionate about that you haven't tapped into yet? Or have you thought about like what's next? I mean, okay. So obviously family relationship, my personal life is obviously very important,

right? So I assume you're just talking about work life, obviously. Everything, everything. Well, I mean, okay. So if you want to talk about like, what do you want to do? Like, how do you want to give back or even thinking that, or are you trying to build businesses? Do you want to, you know, own a basketball team? What is it? I wish. I know you love basketball. Well, I've actually been hanging out with Mark Cuban a little bit. Um, because we, like we go to these fantasy camps and he, dude, I've actually been hanging out with Mark Cuban a little bit because we go to these fantasy camps. Dude, I'll tell you, you want to talk about an authentic guy, he's so awesome. He's so in person exactly the way you think he is from TV.

That dude's just amazing. I can't say enough good things about Mark Cuban. I wish I could own a basketball team. I don't know if I'm – it looks like basketball going rates about $2 billion. I don't think I'm going to earn that. I think I may fall short of that. The big thing for me, I think, the last two, three years has been my personal life. It wasn't a disaster by any stretch, but I definitely learned the lesson that a lot of people learn.

Having a lot of money and being famous doesn't fix your problems. It just means that you have money and are famous. It actually means you can hide from your problems a lot easier, which is detrimental. I've always had great friends. I haven't really had great romantic relationships. I've had a lot of romantic relationships, but there weren't a whole lot of them that were really quality. I've really worked on that. You met Veronica. I think I have a really great girlfriend and we have a great relationship now. And so working on sort of intimate sort of deep meaningful relationships beyond just friends is definitely a priority for me. Because like the only two things that matter in life are work and love.

And I don't mean work like your job. I mean the things you do that matter to other people, right? And so like love and relationships are very important. But that's not sort of a public thing. That's just, you know, that's my life, right? Sure. The work stuff is more like, I mean this is, here's the funny thing, man. I fought, I know I can make a ton of money teaching book publishing and book marketing and sort of sex and dating young guys.

I actually fought it for a few years just because it was like I didn't want to go into those areas just to make money. To me, they're both very important things and it's like I wanted to do them right. I had one of my friends, actually Noah, you know Noah Kagan. Of course. Noah is one of the ones that's like, what are you doing, dude? You know this stuff so well. You can do it in a way. I guess part of me was afraid. Selling information always felt scammy to me. Because

so many people who sell information online are scammy direct marketers. Not all of them by any stretch, but a lot of them are. I just hated that feeling of being like them. Obviously, the solution is simple. Don't do the things they do. Give most of your good information away. Only sell the things that cost you time and sell them to people who have a lot of money and who can leverage it and ROI it. That way, you can essentially pay for giving the information away free by the people who have more money than time pay for that. It it makes total sense. And so that's what I'm definitely gonna do the next, I don't know, four or five, six years beyond that,

man. I don't know. I mean, I don't, I'm not smart enough to be able to predict that far in the future. I feel you. Now, here's a personal question. And if you'd rather not talk about it, that's fine. But, um, you know, for basically 20 something years, you've been having, let's say, shallower relationships with women and, uh, you know, looking for a transaction, looking forward to have fun and whatever short term relationships. And now you're in what seems like a very loving relationship. Um, very intimate, very connected, you know, vulnerable, all those things that are necessary for a loving relationship. Do you find it challenging and scary to stay in it,

day in and day out? Do you find it hard and difficult to not fall back into your default that you've done for 20 years? Are there moments where you're like, I don't know if I can do this and kind of freak out or do you just talk it through? What's kind of the process? Yeah, dude.

I mean, of course, being vulnerable is really fucking scary, dude. That's why it takes real fucking courage to admit your fears and to face them and to open up. Like, fuck yeah, dude. That's really hard. I mean, so yes. And how are you doing it? So the big way, honestly, is I've been in psychoanalysis for three years, man. Like psychoanalysis is a certain type of talk therapy.

Pretty much any talk therapy can work. I mean cognitive behavioral therapy, whatever. There's any number of sort of modalities and most of them work at least for certain things, right? Psychoanalysis is just a very intense type that tends to work for people who are very thoughtful and very intelligent and really want to understand themselves and dig in. You know, I'm sort of like you and I are both saying we're both very high information sort of voters, you know? And like I really want to know everything I can. Where some people are like, I don't care about knowing shit. I just want the problem fixed and that's it, right?

I want to know everything. And so that's people are like, I don't care about knowing shit. I just want the problem fixed and that's it. I want to know everything. And so that's psychoanalysis for those type of people. And I've been doing that for three years. And what it really does is it just teaches you how to understand yourself, understand your emotions, understand sort of where your thoughts are coming from,

why you're having them, those sorts of things. And it's almost like the way that people, I don't know if you read 10% Happier, but that book, it's pretty good. This guy kind of, he's a news guy. He started taking up medication, not medication, meditation.

He realized, oh my God, I had all these thoughts and emotions and this constant inner monologue and I didn't realize it. It was like meditation is the same, very similar to psychoanalysis except one's talk therapy and one's sort of like self-therapy. But they're very similar and they have the same end goal in a lot of ways. And that was the tool I used is sort of talk therapy to understand myself and my emotions.

So I still have fear and I still like being close to people is hard for me. It's hard for a lot of dudes. The only difference between me and a lot of guys, I'm not afraid to admit it. And a lot of guys are, you know, and it took, but here's the thing. It took me a long time to even admit that. To even admit that took me a long time. Yeah, of course. For myself. And, um, yeah, dude, like, uh, I, I found an amazing woman and she, uh, she likes to talk about sort of, I mean, most women do like to talk about this stuff, but she, she does. And so like, we talk about like, if I get upset or if like, I feel whatever, we just talk about it and we talk it through. And then it's like the, the anxiety goes away. Sure.

You have to always do – when anxiety comes up, you got to do something to relieve it. I probably used to use like alcohol or women or whatever to relieve it, right? Now I like – well, first off, I addressed a lot of my issues so the anxiety comes up way less often. But now, like I talk to my girlfriend or know do something like that and then it's like oh okay like why did you know why am i i'm upset right now why am i upset well probably because like x happened this morning why would that upset me because whatever you know right right now i

think a lot of men um have a similar fear of getting in a relationship and then feeling like either they're missing out or maybe they still want to be, you know, explore other options. Now that's something, that's definitely something I've had. Uh, and it's also a fear of mine, like getting in a new relationship. I'm like, okay, what if I fall in love or have this amazing time? And then after a year or two, it's like, I want to start exploring other options or see what else is out there now, I Have no clue because I'm not in like a committed relationship right now what that would feel like But is that something that's ever come up for you or if it is?

Do you do exactly what you just said which is like hey? I'm having these feelings or thoughts of like maybe exploring something and then you just talk it out and then then anxiety goes away Okay, so well, there's a lot of issues with that question. So really, no, but it's a really fucking good question, man. Because that question is at the core of a lot of things for a lot of guys. Here's the thing. If I had met my current girlfriend at 28,

it would have been a total, she probably wouldn't have dated me and it would have been a total disaster. Because at 28, I still had to fuck a bunch more women. And so I think what a lot of guys don't do is they don't sit down and are really take inventory and are really honest with themselves about what they want they they know what they're supposed to want like they're either you know you see both sides you see guys who think that they have to fuck a bunch of girls but actually want a girlfriend and you see guys who think they're supposed to have a girlfriend but actually want to fuck a bunch of different girls.

Listen, guys. Neither one is right. Objectively, there's just what's right for you in that moment. And the reality is for whatever reason, it kind of doesn't matter what the reason is. The reality is in my 20s and early 30s, I needed to experience a lot of women and I did. It was awesome. At least a lot of it was fun. I don't want to say I got it out of my system but I think if I had never done that, it would have been an issue for me going forward with relationships.

Now, here's the thing. I actually had this conversation with my girlfriend about three or four nights ago. I still see attractive women and of course I want to sleep with them. You know, like I will be dead the time that I see a hot girl and don't think anything sexual at all about her. That will be the day that I'm dead, right? Right, right. And I mean that-

Probably for most men too. Right, exactly. So there's nothing wrong with that, right? It's more like, okay, like it doesn't mean, here's the thing, it doesn't mean I want to necessarily act on it because at the end of the day, it does become a cost, whether you realize it or not, it's a cost benefit analysis. I would have no problem fucking that girl. And so it would be no problem for me. That would hurt her a lot. That would betray the trust she has in the relationship and probably end the relationship or at the very least change it fundamentally in a bad way. I value her and the relationship more than a random sexual encounter. So that's just – it's not even a hard thing for me.

Like it's not – if I had not experienced a bunch of women, it would be really hard for me I think. But I have and I know what that other side is like and it's not bad. Like sleeping with a bunch of women is not a bad thing but it's not,

it's not as fulfilling to me at this point in my life than having a deeply committed, meaningful relationship. Now, dude, here's the,

you had a good point. What happens if I don't want that later on? Well, motherfucker, live that life when that time comes no seriously it's scary for a lot of people though it is scary but nothing is forever not even your life of course so why are you like you shouldn't make a decision based on what you think you might do in 20 years or something you know like i know that i love my girlfriend now i know i going to love her in the near future. I know that I want to try and build something meaningful with her.

And is it a possibility that she leaves me or I leave her or she wants something different or I want something different in five years? Yeah. Or 10 years? Absolutely. But, I mean, it's a possibility I'm going to get hit by a piano falling out of the sky. I mean, come on, man. Life is now.

And you've got to make decisions based on now, not five years. Right. If you govern your life based on avoiding potential fear in the future, you will never do anything. Right, right. I'm going to break this up into two episodes just because I want to keep talking about this subject. Okay, let's go.

But it doesn't make sense to have a book marketing and sleeping with women in the same podcast. Yeah, right. Just to let you know. But what I'm interested in knowing is what is it about your girlfriend that makes her the one for you right now? Or that makes her the one that you want to develop a deep relationship with her and really connect and not sleep with other women? What are the qualities she possesses? What are the things that she has that supports you as a man that says says like, this is the girl that I want to be with right now. Right. So let me address that. It's a super good question. Let me address one thing.

So I, I, I, I know there are a lot of people, swingers or certain guys that say you can sleep with multiple women and have deep emotional connections with all of them or have connections with all of them. I don't believe that. And believe me, I have fucking tested this. I wish it was true. I have lived with women where I was sleeping with all three of them. I have

dated lesbian or sort of bisexual girls who might as well have been lesbians who brought girls home all the time. Wait, did you say you were living with three women at the same time? Yeah, living with three and fucking all three of them. Oh, my God. They knew. There wasn't a fight going on.

Yeah, no doubt. Or maybe I think it was two of the three and then one, whatever. Yes. You've explored it all. The other one wasn't living there, but she might as well have been because she was there six nights a week. But whatever. six nights a week but uh whatever so like the point is i i have never seen a situation where you're capable of having deep intimate trusting emotional connections with multiple girls or with open relationships okay there are people who say it's possible good for them i wish i could make

it work i can't so the only reason that i'm willing to be monogamous with my girlfriend one is because she wants it. But like, so what am I getting out of it, right? If she didn't want it, would you be able to make it work? If she wanted to have threesomes every now and then, I'd be totally down. I would love that. That would be amazing. Sure.

But see, here's the thing. I've already done that. So it's not necessary. Right. Here's, dude, threesomes are actually a lot of work. That's the dirty little secret of them is like once a month it's kind of cool but if you do it over and over it's like oh god you're like fucking sexually exhausted and dude i have a pretty high sex drive and and i'm saying this is a dude who has no problems like getting it up or you know i i can i'm reloaded

quick and like dude it's kind of a pain in the ass if every night it's like, oh, God, I got to fuck two girls twice again. It's almost like living at a buffet. A buffet is awesome if you go once a week. But if you live there, you get sick of food. Exhausted, yeah. Right, exactly. But my point is what I find in her is that what I get out of this is we have a deep emotional connection. I can trust her more than I probably trusted anyone else in my life.

I can be vulnerable with her. It's like having a soft place to land. I can confide in her. She's so supportive. She's so caring. She's so sweet. She's always on my side. I mean not literally but basically always on my

side she's on my side you know she's on your team right she wants you to win in life exactly she's i know she's got my back and that sort of connection and that feeling is amazing and so important right now at 28 i didn't value that more than sex with a lot of women because I thought I was getting that from, you know, like I had a bunch of really good friends and I still do but friends aren't the same thing, man. As good as the best friends are, it's not the same thing as an amazing relationship, amazing partnership because it's basically two people connected in a lot of ways becoming one emotionally.

You know, not literally of course but becoming one. And so literally, of course, but becoming one. I just want to make that clear. That's why I'm willing to be in a monogamous relationship because I think what I'm getting is more valuable than what I'm letting go. They're different things though. It's absolutely possible to value them differently than I am right now. I value them differently in my life You know what I'm saying sure sure so there's not a right answer here It's just what makes sense for you at the moment now Why do I am attracted to my girlfriend because well first off let's not skip over the obvious thing. She's really fucking hot

I mean like you gotta be physically attracted Obviously she's tall she's beautiful like my athletic she's like right she's a crossfit competitor she's like a fucking amazing at it but she's not like a bodybuilder ridiculous monster she's still really sexy right um and so like she's a very physically attracted to her uh physically we have similar drives she wants to fuck all the time and it's like she even wears me out sometimes which is kind of perfect. It's never good. It's usually not good if the guy doesn't get enough. That's unsatisfying. It is on a physical level. She is very intelligent. She's very smart. She's a challenge for me to talk to.

She knows more about... She's a nurse practitioner. She's like a paleo-ancestral sort of practicing, um you know like rob wolf and marxist and those people sure and she knows more about that field than i do it's something i care about i know a lot about and she knows way more than me right that's sexy when you can learn something from your girl seriously and learn real shit like she's like there's a lot of things about stuff that that uh i was like oh i didn't know that she's like oh you should do this differently and i was like really i tested and lo and behold she's fucking right and it's like all right that's that's pretty fucking cool right tested and lo and behold, she's fucking right. And it's like, all right, that's pretty fucking cool, right?

And then she's also, she's very entrepreneurial. She has her own business. She understands what it means to start a business. She's very supportive of me in that regard and I am of her. I think most importantly though, dude, she's so sweet and she's so caring and she's so trustworthy, not in a pushover way or not. It's like she definitely, she's a very strong woman and she absolutely like has her boundaries. But within those boundaries, she is so giving and so compassionate and so empathetic.

I feel, I mean, I kind of sound like a little bitch saying it, but I feel very safe with her, you know, Very emotionally safe. And when you have that feeling, it's very hard or it's very – attract is not the right word. It's very engaging. It's very meaningful. Dating her made me understand why people don't want to fuck a bunch of women because it was hard for me to understand until i really met someone that i connected with on a deep level and now i'm like okay i get it i totally get it it makes total sense you know i'm not gonna start writing love

songs about her and shit but like like it really makes sense sure and i feel like um i don't know i feel like i i'm able to be a better, more expressive, more full person because of this relationship. Yeah. I mean, I definitely, you know, I would say, you know, hanging out with you a couple years ago, you were still, you know, yourself, whatever. But seeing you this last time, it was definitely a sense of like calm groundedness. It wasn't like this, not like you weren't grounded before, but it was definitely a different sense about you and this groundedness you're still outrageously you know expressive but uh which isn't bad it's just it's who you are it's just like you were grounded which was really cool to be around and it's like you were connected in a different way it's like you look people in the

eyes a different way and we're able to relate and connect in a different way. Again, not right or wrong, good or bad, just different. And I appreciated it, you know? Yeah. No, I, dude, I, I agree. I, I feel like this is one of those things that's hard to talk about and see you experience, but I feel like a great relationship makes you a better person, you know? And I think this has made me, she's made me, I don't want to say she's made me a better person because that's not true. It's our relationship has created something between us that has enlarged both of us. Like we are greater together than the sum of our parts. You know what I'm saying? Sure, sure.

Like, yeah, I think that's – I don't know. You said earlier, it's hard for me to find that or whatever. I worry about these other things. Dude, I went through that. I really did. As wonderful as Veronica is, I absolutely had the thoughts where it was like, what if she's not enough? Or what if she's not hot enough? Which is kind of ridiculous if you look at her. Or what if she's not hot enough, which is kind of ridiculous if you look at her. But like, or what if, you know, what if she's not smart enough or what if, well, well.

And it was like, it was one of those things where it was like, I didn't, I hate people who are like, oh, no, just accept, you know, like just settle for someone. That's total bullshit. Right. I do not think that at all. But at the same time, it was one of those things where I realized a lot of those anxieties, at least in me, were not about her. They were about me. You know what I'm saying? So I was like, I was looking for, first off, it was a defense against intimacy. Like I was looking for flaws in her so I could justify like not getting close to her. Because if I'm going to date, she is a fully expressed human. If I'm

going to date her, I'm going to have to date her right. There's not going to be any bullshit. I mean, dude, you know how easy it would be for me to go through my life and date 21-year-olds or 23-year-olds and be so much smarter and so much more sophisticated than them

and never really have to engage them or open up emotionally? I could do that without any problem. You get bored though. Right. Because it's not even that I get bored. That's a way of hiding from yourself. You know? And with Veronica't i can't hide like she wants to fully engage and have a real relationship and so if i wanted to date her i had to do that too and that's the

thing is i wanted to but it's like it's hard man it's it it um it makes you afraid yeah it really does it makes you afraid because you really does. It makes you afraid because you're very vulnerable. You know, like if you open your soul to someone, they can leave you, they can hurt you. They can do all these things. And I trust her not to do it, but she could still do it anyway, you know? And vice versa you to her. So she's got to trust you. Yeah. What were the, um, I don't know if you've written about this or talked about this. So forgive me if you have, but what were,

what was it like growing up for you? Like, what was it like your experiences? What were you thinking about most of the time? What were the biggest challenges for you growing up? Because most successful people don't just have it super easy or it's not just like a cakewalk. There's something,

and it doesn't have to be like this sob story, but there's something that's these make or break moments or defining moments that are like, oh shit, I got to step up now. I've got to do this differently or something. So what was it like? What were you thinking about? Well, I mean, so sob story aside,

the reality is I didn't have very good parents. They weren't bad people at all. I didn't starve. I had clothes. They didn't bad people at all. I didn't starve. I had clothes. They didn't put anything in my butt or anything like that. There was none of that shit, right? Tucker definitely knows how to make any vulnerable moment a laugh.

Anything he's about to say that's vulnerable, it's like, let's make people laugh first. Well, it's a good defense. Of course it is. That's why you're good at first. Well, it's a good defense. Of course it is. Of course. That's why. You're good at it. So basically my parents were just – like they were emotionally fucked up people and as a result, they were bad parents. They weren't bad people. They were just bad, really bad at being parents because the thing is they never really emotionally connected with me in a lot of ways.

Not that they didn't love you. They loved me the best they could. They're just not able to love very well. And so they just did straight up a shitty job at being parents. And that's just all there is to it. Objectively shitty. And like that's, dude, I mean you want to draw a direct line

from why I am the way I am back to that? You can't. Sure. Like why is it so hard for me to be vulnerable and to be trusting and all these sorts? Because I never learned that growing up. I have no analog for that. In fact, that sort of thing is very threatening to me in a lot of ways. That's why I had to spend three years in psychoanalysis and really understand this stuff about myself,

face those deep inner fears and overcome them and get past them. Then otherwise, man, I'll tell you, there is an upside to my parents being really shitty. The fact that they basically ignored me and basically were really crappy parents, I had to learn how to be self-reliant at an early age. And that has helped me a lot. You know, like it's funny. If I had to construct my parents or I had to like, you know, if I had to pick my parents, I would pick the opposite. I would pick amazing people who love me who are like perfect parents, right? And then the funny thing is I wouldn't have these obstacles.

And then by overcoming those obstacles, a lot of that is what's made me who I am. Yeah, you wouldn't be where you are today without those parents. Right, right. Exactly. Like if you could read really well well you wouldn't probably be a sick athlete you wouldn't be so socially skilled as you are exactly because you would be reading all day right i'd be smart reading all day right well you are smart you just you had to develop other intelligence exactly you know we yeah yeah yeah we talked about this in our place like people

always told you were stupid it's total bullshit you just weren't smart the way they understood intelligence exactly it's totally different right um so it's sort of the same thing like Like people always told you were stupid. It's total bullshit. You just weren't smart the way they understood intelligence. Exactly. Exactly. It's totally different, right? So it's sort of the same thing. Like at no point am I happy with who my parents were. But at the same time, it's like I had the wherewithal and the ability and the luck and everything else. The whole suite of sort of situations that led to me to overcome this stuff.

And then like that's why when my book, you know, my writing was rejected from everyone in publishing, I was like, fuck it, I'll just do it myself, right? Whereas if I'd had great parents, I probably just set it aside and said, oh, well, I guess I'm not a writer. I'm going to go be a doctor or something, you know, which is not bad. It just creates a very different life. You know, you and I are on, you and I are entertainers and educators

and have podcasts and write because we've had to overcome obstacles and we had to teach these things to ourselves. And so now other people, I think like that's why we're interesting to them is because we can talk about them as well, you know? So where do you think you'd be if you didn't have any obstacles growing up or the obstacles that you do have? Dude, I would almost certainly be like a surgeon or I would have like a very high status, high intelligence, normal job.

You know? Because I'm obviously a smart dude, but like why did I pick a path that was so sort of off? Like I picked a really hard path, you know? And it's not part of it. It's paid off though. Right, exactly.

But it wasn't obvious for a long time this would pay off. And part of the reason I picked this path is because I had to. I was very difficult to deal with as a young kid, even in my early 20s. And it was like I got fired from a lot of jobs. My dad fired me from the family business. So a lot of it is my own fault. But it's like if I was really good at doing the things you're supposed to do in quotes,

I would just be like a lawyer, doctor. I'd just be like maybe whatever, vice president of sales for Time Warner. Who fucking knows? Some bullshit like that that it's perfectly fine. I'd make a bunch of money. I'd have a nice wife, a nice house in the suburbs. I'd have a perfectly happy life. It might not even be boring for me.

I know people who do that stuff who really like their lives. Most people don't but not everyone. Some people like that. I might be one of those people. But the reality is I grew up in a very chaotic, very emotionally turbulent, uncertain world in childhood. That's part of why I think I have to succeed too. I'm driven to succeed is because I got no attention as a kid.

I got very little positive feedback. It's one of those things where there's a lot of ways to react to that. There's a lot of defenses. You can either say, fuck you. I'm going to show you how big I'm going to be, which is kind of the way I went. Or you can retreat into depression and self-destruction or drug addiction, or there's lots of ways to deal with that emotional pain. I channeled it in generally positive ways, not totally positive all the time, but generally, uh, I may, I try to make something up. You channel it into a drive and a grit and a

hustle that most people don't have. Right. But what's funny, man, is what got me there isn't what's getting me here. I had the things that drove me to be great were also things that were sabotaging me. Of course. That's what made you get into all these different, you know, want to sleep with every woman in the world. I had to learn how to deal with my emotions. Like those things work when you're young and you're hustling and you got nothing to get you over that hump. But once you get over the hump, using the same behaviors actually inhibits you. It's really hard to be successful, to have the attributes that get you successful and then to also maintain success.

It's like two different sets of attributes. you know so when you were when you were you know before teenage years how were you coping with things emotionally before you could actually like go and like date women and like drive or go somewhere on your own what were you doing like when your parents were fighting or it was just like messed up night like what would you do did you have like some little games you played or hobbies or things so like i read a lot um like it's funny you've been in my apartment like i have 3 000 books in my it's a library right exactly really amazing it's awesome it is okay so that's we talked about this in an analysis like maybe in the first six months my analysis why do i have so many books in my place and you know the answer is i love to read you know and reading

teaches me etc etc and there's lots of there's rationalizations you can have for that. And they're true. All those things are true. I love books. I love reading. But then my illness kind of pushed me sort of like the way you are now. Like it's the right question. Why do you love to read? Like why does it – what does that mean to you?

And it really kind of unpacked it and I realized that as a kid, books were not just an escape from the chaos around me, but books were also my way out. I realized as a kid that everything I'd been through, someone else had been through. Nothing I'm going to do in my life is going to be the first time to experience love, hate, envy, fear, sex, greed, whatever. Nothing. hate, envy, fear, sex, greed, whatever, nothing. And if all the answers were out there in books, if I just read enough books and figured out the right books and applied the lessons in the right way, I could figure out all the lessons that my parents were teaching me and I could figure out how to be the things I wanted to be. I just had to do it on my own.

And so books, that's one of the reasons I have 3000 books in my place is because they have a very important emotional attachment to me. They're sort of, it's like, they're my not control, but they're my way of dealing with life when I have nothing else on my side. What would you do if you couldn't read books anymore fuck i don't know i don't know listen to them on audio i don't know i'll listen to audiobooks i guess i don't know but is there like a therapeutic uh you know reaction for you when you sit down and open up the book and read it and as opposed to just listening to a book or you know no no reading itself is not therapeutic to me.

Gotcha. I think having the books around makes me feel very – because think about it, dude. I could have all these books on Kindle. Sure. But I don't. I have physical copies all over my apartment, and it's not showing off.

These aren't like rich leather-bound tomes or I'm trying to look cool. They're actual books that I actually read. I think it's having them around makes me feel like I can solve any problem. Like, no, it's just like Wikipedia of everything, right?

It's like the answers are out there. And even though I can't get them from my parents, I can get them from somewhere. It actually, and part of it is a defense. Uh, I think like not having to rely on other people, because that's something I learned early on from having shitty parents is,

is not to rely on people close to you. And that so become as smart as possible and know everything so you don't have to rely on anyone for answers okay that's great except it doesn't work in relationships exactly it doesn't work i mean close romantic relationships yeah and that's literally what i'm in the middle of working through with uh of my analyst and with Veronica is like – and she's so patient. She totally gets it. She understands like so much of what she values about me also comes with these negative sides. And she understands like I've got to work through this stuff and she's super helpful about it and she's very compassionate about it. And like I can talk about it with her and she's really smart.

She gets it. And so it's like I can overcome these issues. I just kind of – not basically. You literally have to rewire your brain. You have to train your brain to think in different patterns. Yeah, because you've got 30 plus years of a habit, of default habits, and now you've got to change it to something completely different in order for a relationship to work.

Yeah, I mean on a neurological level, that's actually literally how it works. Yeah. Which is not easy. But once you retrain your mind and you stay consistent with it, then it becomes easier. What is the biggest lesson you've learned about yourself while being in this type of relationship with your girlfriend? Like what's the biggest thing you've learned so far? And maybe it's a couple, but what's something that comes to mind? Man, that's a good question.

The biggest thing I've learned. You know, honestly, the thing that I've learned the most is how to be expressive and care about, how to think about someone else's needs. I wasn't super, I was never like a clinical full-on narcissist, but I always had very narcissistic behaviors. It's not that I didn't care about anyone else, I just didn't think about anyone else. Because when you grow up basically alone, only thinking about yourself,

only child, parents are never there. My parents got divorced when I was like a year and a half. My mom was a flight attendant. Like Jesus Christ, dude. Like I was – I mean like I was basically a feral child. And so like understanding the thoughts, needs, desires of other people, especially the unstated ones is not – it's a very difficult thing for me. And there are quite a few times in our relationship where I'll do something and Veronica will be like, what the fuck?

I'm like, what? What's wrong? Like I don't even know what she's upset about. And she's like – like she, you know, like is pretty pissed off. But at the same time, she's pretty patient with me because she understands like, okay, he doesn't get it. But there are times where like she needs something from me. And someone who, you know, grew up in normal family or brothers and sisters or is good at relationships will know that intuitively. I don't know most of those things intuitively.

So I've had to learn how to understand people. I'm really good at understanding people in sort of like, okay, I want to like, whatever, read this person for this negotiation. Like, like if you and I were in a negotiation across the table, dude, I can read you like a fucking book. No problem. But that's totally different than being in a relationship. Totally different, totally different. And so like, I'm very bad at that. Understanding people and reading people in the midst of a connected, intimate relationship. And that's the thing I've learned the most is how to do that. Like how to think about her, how to think about what she cares about and how to adjust my behavior so that like,

um, I, I, I'm considering her, not just myself. Right. Right. You know, man, I could talk about this stuff for hours with you. And I really appreciate you opening up about this. But I really want to acknowledge you for everything you are up to right now. Not just with the business and the book stuff and the podcast and all the amazing things that you're known for. But really for, and, and, and, you know, not trying to get sappy. I should probably swear really quickly to make a defense mechanism,

but really for, um, like just for fucking stepping up as a man, the way you have been stepping up. And again, it's a journey and it's a journey that I'm on that you're on, we're all on, but the way you've been doing it,

I really acknowledge you for the courage that it takes, because I know how scary it is. And I acknowledge you for, you know, everything you're up to in life and how you, you really care for people. You know, when I go stay at your place, whenever we get to hang out, you know, once, twice a year, whatever it is, you really care and it shows. And I really appreciate that about you. And it just means so much to know you. It means so much for me to know you and know how big of a game you're up to in the world and how you're really impacting a lot of people.

So I really appreciate you for everything you're doing. Thank you, man. Thank you, dude. You're going to ruin my reputation now. I know, I know, right? People might start liking me after this podcast. I know. Well, I think it's, you know, the reason why it's like flown by for me in this podcast

is because it's like you're talking for real. You're like just sharing openly and vulnerably. And it's so interesting for me to listen to. And obviously, we've had this conversation before, but it's just it's really engaging and fun. And I think a lot of people are going to enjoy this. So I'm going to have to have you come back on sometime, but, uh, yeah, I would love to, the next, the next book you come out with, we'll, uh, we'll talk more about the relationship stuff

instead. So, um, to go into the last question, which is what I ask everyone on the podcast before we wrap up is, uh, what is your definition of greatness? podcast before we wrap up is, uh, what is your definition of greatness? What is my definition of greatness? Um, I think doing something that matters for other people, you know, like if you can, if you can create things or do something that matters, that creates value for other people, that makes you great. Take a business example, Uber. Uber is great for everyone on earth except taxicab companies. Fuck those people. Travis might not be a great guy, but that's a great thing. If you help people understand things better, if you provide them a service that makes their life better, if you make

food, whatever, anything. Anything that makes the real lives of real people better, to me, that's what's great. That's why I don't consider Alexander the Great great. All he did was kill a bunch of people. He made his life great.

Right. Well, there you go. I appreciate it, man. Where should we connect with you? Are you still promoting tuckermax.com or is there somewhere else where we can really find you and stay connected online? The best place is actually probably tuckermax.me. That's sort of the blog that I put up after I retired from Frat Tire to kind of handle the stuff I'm doing afterwards.

Gotcha. Yeah, I put stuff there. Or just go to Bookstrapper if you care about the book stuff. If you don't, then don't pay attention because it's worthless. Cool. No problem. We'll have it all linked up on the show notes and this will be a two-part series. So again, Tucker, it's a pleasure, man.

I really appreciate you sharing and opening up and giving us your wisdom on the podcast. It's my pleasure, man. Anytime. Thank you very much. This is a great podcast. Thanks, brother. I appreciate you. and there you have it guys i hope you enjoyed this episode and a big shout out and thank you to tucker for being so open and uh sharing with us all of his uh past experience information and

kind of what he's up to now i think it takes takes a lot for someone to talk about it all so openly. So thank you again, Tucker, for that. Big shout out to you, my man. I appreciate your friendship. And if you guys enjoyed this episode, please share it with your friends over on Twitter and Facebook, Google Plus. Post a picture on Instagram where you are listening to the show and just give me a tag at Lewis Howes

or hashtag school of greatness. And I appreciate you guys. If you have yet to leave a review over on iTunes, please do that supports the growth of the show and gets the show out there to more people. So if you love this show, if you listen to every episode, if you listen to multiple episodes over and over and over again, then please leave a review if you have yet to leave one. It would support me so much. So thank you guys for all that you do, for sharing, for promoting, for spreading the word about the School of Greatness.

You guys know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great. Outro Music Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh