The School of Greatness - 862 Simon Sinek: The Power of the Infinite Mindset

Episode Date: October 14, 2019

What does it mean to be a leader? How do you define winning? At its root, leadership is a responsibility to the people around us. Anyone on your team can become a leader. It’s the kind of team trust that transforms your co-workers into a family. Just like leadership, winning is an on-going process. Winning requires an infinite mindset. Every day we study and train so that we can become better than the day before. You must embrace the process. If you do, great leadership awaits you. In today’s episode of The School of Greatness, I talk about the qualities of leadership and how to create a better office environment with a master of organizational leadership: Simon Sinek. Simon is a business consultant, author, and motivational speaker. He teaches leaders and organizations how to inspire people. As an author, he has released multiple best-selling books, Start With Why, Leaders Eat Last, Together is Better and Find Your Why. His latest book is The Infinite Game. Simon talks about his journey and why creating a great work environment is so important to him. He also discusses the Infinite Game and why it’s a process that will reap great benefits. So get ready to learn about playing the Infinite Game on Episode 862. Some Questions I Ask: Why does following your purpose require a personal sacrifice? (05:30) Is there one person in a business who is responsible for improving the culture? (17:15) What makes someone a leader? (26:20) How do you develop self-confidence? (32:05) What is the Infinite Mind? (41:20) What is the difference between an Individual athlete and a team athlete? (44:00) In This Episode You Will Learn: How to avoid sustained stress in business (10:00) Why you should always be inspired to go to work (21:50) Simon’s definition of a leader (26:20) How to build your self-confidence (32:05) Why the Infinite Mind is vital to our future success (41:20) If you enjoyed this episode, check out the video, show notes and more at http://lewishowes.com/862 and follow at instagram.com/lewishowes

This is episode number 862 with Simon Sinek. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. C.S. Lewis said, humility is not thinking less of yourself. It's thinking of yourself less.

Welcome to this episode. In a world where the need to be right, the need to win, the desire to have more power, more influence, more attention is at its all-time high. Today's episode is about how to really think about the infinite mindset, the infinite game, and how to create an experience in our lives where we get what we want in our life. We have our dreams come true, but we also cultivate an experience of dreams coming true for everyone and healing happening for everyone and opportunities and abundance for the whole planet, not just for ourselves. And I'm so excited about this because Simon Sinek is a friend of mine. He was one of the first people on the show over six years ago. He's done some incredible things. If you don't know who he is, he's the author of multiple bestselling books, a big time speaker all over the world, and an organizational consultant.

Simon may be best known for popularizing the concept of why in his first TED Talk in 2009. It rose to become one of the most watched TED Talks of all time with over 43 million views and subtitled in 48 languages. And his interview on millennials in the workplace broke the internet in 2016, getting over 200 million views in the first month alone. This led Simon to being YouTube's fifth most searched term in 2017. And from American Airlines to Disney to Mars, from big businesses to entrepreneurs to police forces, Simon has been invited to meet with an array of leaders and organizations in nearly every industry.

He has also had the honor of sharing his ideas at the United Nations, the United States Congress, and with the senior most leaders of the United States Air Force, Marine Corps, Navy, Army, and Coast Guard. And he's got a new book called The Infinite Game that is out right now. And in this interview, we talk about the sacrifices and consequences people make for their work and the importance of finding a livable work-life balance. How true leadership can come from anywhere, not just from the person in the authoritative position.

Humility as a top characteristic of being a great leader and why it should be shared. How the best way to build confidence is through the service of others, and the game-changing power of having an infinite mindset versus a finite mindset. This one will be a game changer. Within the first five minutes, I was captivated as every time I connect with Simon, we somehow dive into topics that just really open up in a powerful way. Make sure to share this with one friend today. You can text a friend,

post it in a WhatsApp group message, put it on Facebook Messenger. Just send it to at least one friend. The link is lewishouse.com slash 862 or wherever you're listening to this podcast, just take the link and share it to one friend. You can be a champion to them today. You can be a hero in someone's life by spreading this message and asking them what they got out of this by learning about the power of the infinite mindset. Let us

know over on social media as well, at Lewis Howes and Simon Sinek. Tag us over on your Instagram story as I'm sure Simon would love to see the messages you're sending him. as I'm sure Simon would love to see the messages you're sending him. We've got Simon Sinek in the house. Welcome to the School of Greatness, my man. We just started, so good to see you. I'm glad you're here. So good to see you.

We were just saying that you've got one of the top, what is it, three or five most watched TED Talks of all time. And that was, I think, 10 years ago, roughly 10 years ago. And you were hustling hard to build your business and credibility and content and expertise before then. But then you had to maximize that opportunity. And you've been working hard. And you just said you've been sacrificing social life. Does that mean intimate relationships as well as friendships, family life?

What does that mean? So when I discovered this thing called the why, I realized its power. It had a remarkable influence over my life. I loved sharing it. I mean, you know what it feels like, you know, the obsession with sharing the ideas hasn't gone away. I was obsessed with it and I understood that I was the only mouthpiece for it. And it was at a time when, you know, now people talk about purpose in business like it's no biggie. Back then, it just wasn't a thing. It was like this big idea. And then those who talked about it were like weird hippy-dippy types, you know? It wasn't a mainstream thing yet. And so I realized the power of the idea and I made a conscious decision that I was going to, you know, everything comes at a cost. There's no, there's nothing for free, whether it comes at a

cost of money or personal life or time or energy, whatever it is, everything costs something, you know? And so I made the choice that I was going to put myself out there and I was going to drive this message as hard as I could. And I made a deal with myself that I would drive hard until I achieved momentum. And I defined momentum as if I were to give less energy, the message would continue to spread the same or faster without me, right? In other words, building a movement

where other people could spread the message as well. And the sacrifice I made was I wasn't at home. And so for a long period of time, I was undateable. You know, I'd meet someone amazing and I'd be, oh, my God, I had such a great time. Are you free for a second date in six weeks? You know, it's like nobody wants to date me. And plus, when I would come home from a trip, I'd be exhausted. So I'd just want to stay home.

So I knew that that was happening. And the nice thing is I'm that momentum is Like it has its own momentum Yeah, and so now I'm I'm I'm I'm sticking to my deal and I'm sort of slowing down the amount of really that I'm actually On the road. Yeah, okay. So now you're looking for better ways in different ways to spread the message You know, the internet is more mature Podcasting is a thing social media is more mature There are other avenues that I can continue to spread the message without having to be on plane. Yeah, it doesn't have to be you on the ground.

But I like going out because I would much rather connect with people one-on-one. Well, you're very talented at what you do. I mean, I've seen you speak. I think Archangel. I always get it messed up. Is it Archangel or Archangel? I think it's Archangel, yeah. I saw you speak there.

We did a Q&A, and it was like the best performance of the whole show. So you have an amazing message when you speak. So it's hard. It's probably hard for you to be like, well, no one can say it like me. No one has the experience like I've had learning from all these great leaders to tell this story. And I think that's a little probably challenging. I mean, thank you. But I'm a great believer that if a message has value, it has to be simple, understandable, and repeatable.

Because if you can make it simple, that means somebody else can understand it. And if somebody else can understand it, that means they can repeat it without you there and without reading the words from a book. So my goal has always been when I am the one on the stage, when I am the one on camera, to try and present whatever ideas that I have in such a simple way that somebody can understand them and internalize them and repeat those same ideas in their own words. And it's very nice of you to say that, but I would feel it would be a very weak movement if I was the only one who could talk about it.

Right, right. You know? And so... So how important is the messenger then for the message? Right, right. Because the message was bigger than the messenger. But we look to the messenger to inspire us and point into a far off distant destination in the future. An unrealizable, you know, idealized vision of the future. And we take that vision and make it our own. And we commit our own efforts and our own energies to building it. Yeah.

Is there anything you regret in the last decade since you've been building the movement and the momentum for the movement with the personal life? Yeah, of course. I mean, of course. Anything you're willing to share?

I mean, of course. Were there people you were like, wow, that could have been a great relationship or great friendship or great... Yeah, you know,

the people that I really connected with, my true friends, have stuck with me through it all. You know, even now, some people have said sort of as a jab to me, you're too busy to date. The reality is busy people are patient with busy people.

I find that that's still the case. So, look, we make time for the things that matter to us. And of course I have regrets. But regrets is not, I wouldn't use the word regret. Of course there are things that I missed. But I made a choice and I'm very happy with that choice and I stand by that choice because not only have I had the opportunity, the amazing experience to spread this message and see it actually grow and be bigger than me, I've had the opportunity to live an absolutely surreal life because of it. My life profoundly changed course. Yeah.

And I cannot, I can't, it's not fair to compare those things. They're not equals. Everybody with straight hair wants curly hair and everybody with curly wants straight hair. You know? I mean I know people who have the stability in the home life and the families and look at my life and be like,

oh my God, I wish I had that. And you look at my life and I'm bouncing all around. I mean, the answer is I'm really grateful for the life that I live. So no, regret is not the word that I would use. But there was a price and a cost. But there's a price and a cost that I took willingly. That's fine. It's interesting.

Do you know Robert Greene, the author of 48 Laws of Power? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Art of Seduction. Yeah, I know the books. All those books. He came on like six months ago, a year ago maybe. of power oh yeah yeah yeah art of seduction yeah i know the books um all those books he came on like six months ago a year ago maybe his last book i'm forgetting the name of the last book it's probably up here somewhere but um he came on he came in here and he had a stroke right before his book came out and he he came in here a month after he had a stroke he had someone helping him it took him

about 15 minutes to get from the door to sitting here and half of his body was essentially paralyzed and he's sitting here like this could hardly move half his body he's very slow and i said do you think and it took him about four years to write this book. And I said, do you think this book was the cause of this stroke? And he said, yes, because I obsessed so much about the message. And I said, do you regret putting this book out and putting this much effort into this? Would you do it differently without the stroke? And he said, you know, I wouldn't do it differently.

I'm willing to sacrifice this for the stroke. And he said, you know, I wouldn't do it differently. I'm willing to sacrifice this for the message. I thought that was very, I don't know if I would go that far. I mean, if you could take it back and do it differently and like balance a little bit.

Yeah, I admire it. I mean, but he was like, I stand by this work and the message is that important for me. I can get,

I get it. When I wrote Leaders Eat Last, that book, I mean, it was a behemoth. Yeah. And nights and weekends were a fantasy, you know? And I became an obsession. I mean, it was like a beautiful mind. I used to keep a dry erase marker in my bathroom so that if I was in the shower and had an idea,

as soon as I got out of the shower, I'd write it on the tiles. And I'd stand there brushing my teeth in the morning or the evening. And I'd read one of the notes that I wrote on the tile and have another idea. And if you walked into my bathroom, the tiles were filled with ideas. I love it. I mean, it was really insanity. I mean, it was fun, though. But I lost two relationships over the course of that book.

Yeah, because I was not myself. I was stressed out, and I was short. And as soon as the book was done, I'm still friends with one of my exes who was the one I was dating writing that book, and she only knew me in that period. And she knows me now, and she's like, this is better. I know. You're a nicer human being. It's not just nicer i'm just i'm i'm less stressed i mean but would i have changed it no yeah i those

sacrifices that would have been nice for those relationships to to have lasted but but you know the the book the message is bigger than me yeah and isn't there a way to get a message out while also taking care of your health and having some quality relationships? Again, these are balances. These are balances. It's learning. It's learning. And look, I couldn't write a book all the time. You know, the one consolation is, you know, even though that book took two years, it's done.

It's over. I never want to do that again. It's a finite game. It's a finite game. want to do that again. It's a finite game. And this one had its moments as well. But there's a light at the end of the tunnel. It is finite.

I actually think that that is actually a much more reasonable and livable lifestyle than I think what a lot of people live in reality, where they work in an organization where their leaders are operating with a finite mindset. But unlike me where the book ends and I'm done, at the end of the quarter, the end of the year, the job doesn't end, the business doesn't end, it keeps going and going. I think that's way more unhealthy

where you're literally on a hamster wheel all the time and it ebbs and flows but it doesn't stop. I think that's much more unhealthy. Talking about for employees of a company? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So should there be a finite ending to employees? No, no, no. What I'm saying is that the business needs to operate in a way in which they care about their people more. And then these arbitrary, finite things aren't the end-all, be-all, and create an environment in which we can have stressful moments, but there's not the sustained stress with the steady drip of cortisol every day of our lives, which we know has

contributed to increases in cancer, diabetes, and heart disease. I mean, our jobs are literally killing us. So I think short bursts of stress are not the problem. The life that I live is actually, I think, pretty healthy. It's this steady drip of cortisol when you go to a job where we don't believe that our bosses care about us and the company doesn't care about us and they have annual rounds of layoffs to balance the books every year. They see me as a number. And then the company has the audacity to say, millennials aren't loyal. It's not, what are you kidding me? It's like they've entered into a workforce in which they're just treated as a disposable commodity. Why should

they give you loyalty? Show a little loyalty to your people and you'll be amazed the loyalty they give back. So I think that's a much unhealthier environment and that's what I rail against. I'm railing right now. So yeah, I don't think what I do is actually healthy. I think short bursts of stress are fine. Well, it's how you build momentum. And it's manageable. You need to go all in for a period of time to build something. You know, a rocket ship takes, I think, almost 50% or more than 50% of its fuel is from the

first mile of launch. And then it can manage the momentum for a year. Momentum is a good thing. It's amazing. Going from zero to motion is a massive amount of energy. If you've ever gone, you know, got out of the bed to go to the gym, that's harder than being at the gym.

So hard. So hard to get up, put your shoes on. You talk about it a little bit about, there's a whole industry around, I think work-life balance is over there. Yes, yes. It little bit about there's a whole industry around, I think, work-life balance. Yeah. It's like there's a massive industry that's just trying to teach this and help people with work-life balance. Yeah. The problem seems like it's failing. Well, it's treating a symptom, isn't it? It's like so many things in our life. So here's the bad analogy.

So we buy running sneakers and they have really thick, you know this, they have really thick heels, tons of padding in the heel, right? But that's because people don't know how to run, right? Because we land with our heel, which is bad for our joints, you know, you're not supposed to have an extended knee. Yeah, all of it, you're supposed to be a toe planter, where your knees are always bent, I mean, you know all this.

So instead of teaching people how to run, what we do is we just build shoes with more padding in the heel and treat the symptom rather than the cause, right? I think it's the same thing. We treat symptoms instead of the cause. So the work-life balance thing, what we're doing is instead of changing businesses, instead of changing the way a business operates and changing the way in which we teach leaders to operate with an infinite mindset so that we more naturally have work-life balance. And let's be crystal clear what work-life balance means. Doing more yoga does not create work-life balance, right? That's the cushion on the shoe. The imbalance is I feel safe at home.

I don't feel safe at work. That's the imbalance. And no amount of yoga or vacation time is going to fix that. What fixes the work-life imbalance is better quality leadership in our businesses. And then what you'll find is the balance. But instead what we do is we have an entire industry that's treating the symptom that's putting that's putting cushion on the shoe to make us feel kinda for an hour right that I've achieved that way you know but it's just for an hour and you know we literally market you know companies market themselves as helping provide you work-life

balance. Unless you're teaching leaders to the people who are my bosses, then you are not helping me achieve work-life balance. You're helping me numb the pain. You're helping me cushion the blow. So when companies have a buffet of lunches every day, when they have sleep pod stations, when they have workout rooms, when they have therapists, are those treating symptoms or is that actually trying to create a more safe environment overall? Depends on the company. If the company is well-led, then it's part of a broader scheme. If the company is poorly led, then it's lipstick on a pig. You and I have both visited companies that are gorgeous and there's one company I'm thinking of that their corporate kitchen, the cafeteria,

the food is unbelievable. You never want to leave. But it's amazing for us as visitors. It's amazing. They get numb to it. And I don't know a single person who would turn down a job offer because the food here is so good. It doesn't exist. But I know plenty of people who turn down job offers because I love working here. I love my boss. I feel a part of something bigger than myself. Yes, your office is nicer than the one I work in. Yes, your food is better than the food that I'm fed. But I want to work here. Maybe get more time off or whatever it is. Whatever it is.

In other words, the feeling we have about coming to work is way more important. Now, of course those things are nice. I'm not going to sit here and tell you those things are not nice. But those are not the things that make us loyal. Those are not the things that make us feel like we belong to something bigger than ourselves. Those are just really nice things. So is it one person's responsibility? Is it one leader of a company's responsibility to create a feeling of safeness, a feeling of something bigger is happening here, a feeling of psychological safety and all the rest of it? Yeah. Or just like, you know, that I want to be a part of this brand or this mission because it's

something bigger than myself, even though maybe somewhere else has better opportunities for food or whatever, fitness center. Is it one person in a business that's responsible? Is it the executive team's responsibility? Is it everyone's responsibility to create that? Yeah. So it's more efficient when it comes from the top, but it's anyone's responsibility. You know, leadership is a responsibility to people around us. It's not a rank.

You've heard me say this before. I know many people who sit at the highest levels of organizations who are not leaders. They have authority, and we do as they tell us because they have authority over us, but we would not follow them. And I know many people, as do you, who sit at lower levels of organizations

who have no formal authority in that they've made a choice to look after the person to the left of them and look after the person to the right of them, and we would trust them and follow them anywhere. In other words, leadership can come from anywhere within an organization. Yes, we have the right to demand to have better leaders and better leadership in our companies. But when we don't, quitting is not the only option, nor is simply complaining, but undertaking the task of becoming the leader we wish we had. Anyone at any level can become a student of leadership, and anyone at any level can choose to look after this person and that person

and work tirelessly to see that they rise, they become better versions of themselves, and that they show up to work inspired and go home feeling fulfilled and feel safe when they're at work because of us. Though the organization itself may be dysfunctional, there are pockets, diamonds in the coal mine. And if you get enough of those pockets, the tail can actually wag the dog. Wow. So that's the great irony of all of this, which is the power belongs to the people.

This is just an anthropological truth. Sure. You know, the power power belongs to the people. This is just an anthropological truth. The power always belongs to the people, which is why dictators bus in crowds to give the appearance that they're popular or they actually have fake elections to give the appearance that they have a

mandate. Dictators do that. If the people didn't have the power, dictators wouldn't need rallies and they wouldn't need elections. Dictators fear the people didn't have the power, dictators wouldn't need rallies and they wouldn't need elections. Right. Right? Dictators fear the people. Right? Because people have the power in any population,

in any organization. And what keeps dictators and bad leaders, authorities in power is by keeping the people divided. Because if you can create mistrust amongst neighbors, then the people can never come together

and never depose the leader. And so if you look at any dictatorship that ever existed, there are systems. Look at East Germany during the Cold War. We didn't know who was telling on us. So everybody kept to themselves and nobody trusted anybody. Neighbors didn't trust neighbors. And that allows authoritarian organizations to do as they please. The people, when people come together, you know, it's not Congress that just woke up one day and decided the Civil Rights Act, that's a pretty good idea.

It was thousands and thousands and thousands of people marching in peaceful protest that put unbelievable pressure on a system to change. And anything that's ever happened in the world where there's been revolution or evolution happened this way. People always have the power. And this is very true in the business as well.

The people have the power. And so if we have mass layoffs on an annualized basis and you create internal competition, what you're doing is you're pitting people against people, especially if you create a system where we're only incentivized based on individual performance. So in a sales organization, for example,

if my income literally depends on how many sales I get and you're going to, I'm going to keep stuff, why would I help you? Right? Keep the people divided, you keep the system that we've got. But as soon as the people come together, good things happen.

And so I'm a great believer that those of us who believe that there's a better way to build a corporate environment, those of us who believe that being able to say I love my job is a right it's not a privilege it's not for a lucky few

who get to go home at the end of the day and say I love my job. It's not some lottery that you win. You go to a dinner party and you ask them do you like your day and say, I love my job. It's not some lottery that you win. You go to a dinner party and you ask them, do you like your job? And they go, I love my job. And we go, oh, you're so lucky. They didn't win anything. Right?

It's not luck. Right. We are entitled. It is our God-given right to love going to work. Why is that? Because I think human beings are tribal animals. And all of us want to feel inspired. We all want to feel like we're a part of something bigger than ourselves.

We all want to have some sort of physical and psychological safety, whether it's at home or work. We fear war. We fear crime. And we want to feel psychologically safe at home. We want safety. And at the end of the day, every human being on the planet wants the feeling that I can provide for myself and my family. There's nobility in work. Handouts don't work and they destroy the human ego. There's nobility in being able to do a hard day's worth of work and collect

a paycheck. And when I do really well, somebody says, good job, here's a little extra for you because you're a valuable member of the tribe. And we want to make sure that we're incentivizing the behavior that you're doing. And the behavior you're doing is you're taking care of something bigger than yourself. Before there was corporate jobs, did people feel entitled with, or sorry, not entitled, but they feel like they were all working on their own before that? They were doing their own craft, they were doing stuff in the family, that. They were doing their own craft. They were doing stuff in the family, in the tribe. What was happening before? So scale breaks things.

Human beings, Homo sapiens have been on this planet 50,000 years-ish. And for 40 of those 50,000 years, literally four-fifths of our time on this planet, we lived in populations that were never larger than about 150 people. And we didn't all live on top of each other. I mean, they were communities. And the way we survived in these dangerous times was we took care of each other. We contributed.

Some people built things. Some people hunted for things. Some people made food. Some people, we took care of the kids. We made their families. And the wealth was distributed. There's evidence they found in anthropological digs where the best cuts of meat, which you would think would go to all the alphas, because I'm the strongest, I get to choose

the food first, you know, the best cuts of meat, which they can tell by the bones, are actually distributed amongst the tribe. In other words, the alphas, the leaders, yes, they were entitled to eat first. That's just the way we are. We're hierarchical animals. You know, nobody has a problem that somebody more senior, nobody has visceral contempt for the idea that somebody more senior in an organization makes more money than me. We're okay with our alphas getting better treatment. Nobody has a problem with celebrities getting a table in the restaurant that we have to wait for. We're okay with it. It's one of the reasons we all try and increase our standing in society.

By doing good, and hopefully you do it in a good way, not just getting internet famous, which is getting fame without any contribution to society. Different subject. It was shared hardships, shared sacrifice for the good of each other. That doesn't mean there wasn't ego and selfishness, of course. But at the end of the day, we needed each other. And then about 10 or 12,000 years ago when we started farming, we didn't need to travel anymore. We could stay put. And we could also sustain much larger populations than about 150 because we

could amass resources. This also allowed for ruling classes and intelligentsia and things like that. You can have an entire group of people who didn't hunt and didn't gather. They just governed, you know, like it's a ruling class. That's what it is. Or they just thought about it. They became philosophers. Yeah. Like you could, we had the resources for that and we were okay with it. And it's a good thing because look at the advancements in modern society in the past 10,000 years, simply because you didn't have to go toil the field. You could actually go invent something. You could innovate. You could innovate, right? So it's a good thing. But scale breaks things for human beings.

We were not naturally made for living in large populations. And so the way it worked best is when we organize into smaller groups, which is why hierarchy matters, which is why leadership training matters. So you asked about, is the top person responsible? No, the top person is responsible for taking care of the people in their direct responsibility and ensuring that they are charged with and incentivized to take care of the people, you know, with their direct responsibility, who are charged with and incentivized to take care of the people in their direct responsibility. And the people on the front lines who are actually doing all the work feel taken care of and are happy to contribute. There's a Marine that I know,

who's a Marine general, who says the way he can judge the quality of a lieutenant is he listens to how the troops talk about their lieutenant. When he's not around. Is it the lieutenant or is it our lieutenant? They take possession of their leader, right? That's our lieutenant, right? Versus that's, it's always the colonel.

It's never our colonel. It's always the colonel because there's no relationship. It's too distant. So as soon as we take possession, emotional possession of our leaders, there's a sign of devotion and mutual trust. But that relationship starts with how the leader leads. Yes, we have a responsibility to give back, but we call you leader not because you have the rank. We call you leader because you took the risk to trust first.

We call you leader because you took the risk to build the relationship first. You took the risk to create the circle of safety first. You took the risk to go head first towards the vision first. That's why we call you leader, because you undertook an element of risk. You literally lead. You went first, right? Nothing to do with rank. Into the unknown. Into the unknown, whatever it is. And then we have a responsibility to go, I'm coming. I support you. There's good followership too. You always do this to me whenever we get together. You get me. You know, the best leaders are actually the best followers.

In what ways? What do you mean? The best leaders never think that they're the final, that the buck stops with them. They always believe that they're in service to something bigger than themselves. And even if that leader, that person in the leadership position, gets to the tippy top of whatever organization, they still feel that they're subordinate to something even bigger, right? So the Pope still thinks that he's in service to something bigger than him, right? A CEO of a visionary organization feels that they are still beholden to and following a vision bigger than them. So the best leaders actually are the best followers,

even if they're at the highest levels of the organization. They're still in service. Right. It may not be to a person, but to a cause, to a cause, an idea, a vision, a thought, something. Whatever it is, there's still some sort of something that they're beholden to and they're devoted to and they're in service to.

So followership is a thing. And not to belabor the Marine point, but Marines, when they evaluate their leaders, they're looking for good leadership and good followership. So for example, when you go through OCS, Officer Candidates School selection, when somebody's for a task chosen to be the leader of that group for that task. The Marines are watching the others as well. So they're looking to see that everybody's contributing ideas, they're looking to see that that leader takes in those ideas but is decisive,

and they're looking to see that the members of the group, if their idea isn't picked, they still give their all to see that the leader's idea is successful, and if it fails, give it their all to pick up the pieces and see what they can do, as opposed to going, I told you, should have gone my way. Right, right. I was right. Or sabotaging because their idea didn't get picked. So they go all in. So good followership is as important as good leadership, that we respect that when a decision is made, we will give our blood, sweat, and tears to see that the decision our leaders have made

If a decision is made, we will give our blood, sweat, and tears to see that the decision our leaders have made will be successful. And if it fails, we will help pick up the pieces because that's the deal. What if you don't believe in the idea? You may not believe in the choice, but you better believe in the idea. Gotcha. The greater idea, but the choice of getting there. And that's just part of life. Yeah.

Heck, man, I've disagreed with my own ideas. I've been pig-headed and dogmatic about this is the way we've got to go, and everybody is wonderful and it kind of falls apart. And I'm just like, yeah, I kind of screwed the pooch on that one. But I take accountability. Or we find in the middle somebody goes, hey, if we do this, we can probably be more successful, and we pivot. There has to be, at the decision-making ranks, there has to be a humility that the ideas don't always have to come from me. Bob Gaylor, the fifth chief master sergeant of the Air Force, has the best definition of humility I've ever heard.

He said, don't confuse humility with meekness. Humility is being open to the ideas of others. So, you know, it's not about like, oh, shucks. That's not humility. You know, you and I know some remarkable leaders, people of great power and authority, and they have huge egos. They know they're good and they don't mind talking about how good they are. But when somebody says, hey, I got an idea, they lean in like they're little kids. They go, let's hear it. I'm looking at some of the photographs on your wall and some of the folks that I know here,

they have an insatiable curiosity for ideas and even though they're unbelievably accomplished, if you have something to share with them, they want to talk about it. They want to hear about it. That's humility to me. So it's not this, you know, it's not me. Self-confidence is a good thing. Thinking you're better than everyone else,

that's unhealthy. You know, thinking you're good is healthy. Thinking you're better than others is unhealthy. Humility is not thinking that you're not good. How do you have a, it's not thinking that you're, how do you develop self-confidence? We're kind of going off here now, but this is a topic I'm really passionate about right

now. I believe self-doubt is one of the biggest killers to anyone's dreams. How does someone develop self-confidence and sustain it with the ever-going changes and stresses and uncertainties that always come up. Once you reach a certain level, there's a new uncertainty. Yeah. So I think it's ironic that we call it self-confidence because I don't, for one, think it comes from the inside. I think our self-confidence comes from the outside, right? You mean that's the wrong way of going about it or you think that's where it comes from

in general? We are being misdirected by the name. When we say build your self-confidence mean that's the wrong way of going about it or you think that's where it comes from in general? We are being misdirected by the name. When we say build your self-confidence, the instruction is saying go inside. Look inside oneself. But I think that's a false direction. Children aren't born self-confident. Their confidence is built from their parents and their friends and their teachers, where they're rewarded when they do well and they're pushed when they fail, when they can do better. We know this, that simply telling kids that they're great all the time actually doesn't build self-confidence.

It actually does the total opposite. Right? self-confidence actually does the total opposite, right? And I, for one, I can tell you in my own experience, my own self-confidence 100% comes from the relationships that I have. It's not some deep internal fortitude. A world-famous trapeze artist is not going to try a brand new death defying act for the first time without a net. So it's the people in my life. It's when I do doubt myself that somebody says, you got this. When somebody says, I believe in you. When somebody says, no matter what happens, whether it succeeds or fails,

I'm going to be by your side. That's when I have the confidence to do difficult things. Wow. I'm going to be by your side. That's when I have the confidence to do difficult things. Wow. I don't have some natural battery that just, you know, that to me is bravado. I don't know about self-confidence.

Being a huge risk taker is not an indication of self-confidence to me. Jumping out of a plane and jumping out of a plane with a parachute are two different things. Right. To me, self-confidence is measured and there should be a degree of doubt. But I think true self-confidence, belief in oneself and belief in one's cause, I could not do the things that I'm doing, and I would not have the strength to have made the sacrifices that I've made or continue to wake up on a daily basis to drive, to spread this message if I were alone.

And so when we talk about building one's self-confidence, I think the mistake that we make is that we look inside. I think the reality is when we're trying to build our self-confidence, we should be looking to our friends. We should be nursing our relationships. When I'm looking to build my self-confidence, the question is, who around me do I need to take care of? The way we build our self-confidence is by helping somebody else build theirs. We will build our confidence with an act of service. So I'll tell you a true story. So I did an experiment. I love doing experiments in my own life.

I have mad thoughts. I'm like, well, let's try this one out. So I have a very dear friend who has stuck with me through thick and thin, who she is absolutely profoundly one of the reasons that I am who I am today. And I have my confidence in large part because of her, right? She's one of a small group of people who I look at and say, yep, yep, good friend, right? She was struggling, like seriously struggling. She was struggling, like seriously struggling. Oh, let me take a step back. We decided that we were gonna, she was struggling, she was going through

some hard things in her life. Career wasn't going the way she wanted, her personal relationship was struggling. There was a lot of rough. She was lacking confidence. There was a lot of rough. She was lacking confidence. We would get together on a regular basis, and I would attempt to coach her.

And she'd feel great for the hour after she left me, and then it would very quickly go back to normal. And we'd get back together, and I would coach her. And she felt great for the hour after she left me, and then it would go back to normal. And I can't say that there was some profound change being made in her life. So I had a harebrained idea. I went to her and I said, I need your help. I said, I'm struggling. I don't have a coach that I, that I love and trust. You've known me for years. I trust you with, you know, with everything. I feel unbelievably safe around you. I, can you put together a program I feel unbelievably safe around you.

I, can you put together a program and can you coach me? I think you're good at it. And I, it wasn't reciprocal. It was an, I'll coach you. You coach me.

I said, it's just, I want, I need your help because I'm struggling. It was legit. It wasn't like I was just making stuff up. It was, it was legit. I mean,

I could do with the help and I, and I trusted her to help me. And something profound started to happen over the course of just a few weeks. It wasn't even for a few months, but over the course just a few weeks, it wasn't even a few months, but over the course of a few weeks, she started to gain way more confidence. Her career started to really move in a more positive direction.

Her relationship firmed up. And the more that she was in service to me, the more that she grew herself. So I think self-confidence, I wish we didn't call it self-confidence. Because like I said, I think it gives a false direction. The way we build confidence is with. You know, con means with, doesn't it?

So I have no idea the etymology of confidence. That's interesting. Just making stuff up here. But con means with. To confide. Let's look this up because fidelity is something know, is something to do with truth. So confide, right? Yeah, look it up with the etymology of confidence.

To confide is to people, like a conspiracy, is a co-whisper. That's what conspiracy is, is a co-whisper. So confidence is co-fidelity. Right. So let's see if the instinct is matched by the etymology of the word. And which if it isn't, I'm still okay with it. What does it say?

So it comes from late Middle English, confident, translations, origins, and meaning. Here we go. Unlight etymology dictionaries. God love it. Where's the word come from? Yeah, I'm not going to sit here and waste everybody's time.

But it comes from comfidre. And fidre means to trust. To trust yourself or trust other people. So com, what does com mean? It means with. With. It means with trust. Wow.

That could be with trust with yourself. I think it's been, that's my yourself. I think it's been mis... That's my point. I think it's been... I think it's like a conspiracy requires two people. You cannot have a conspiracy with one person. It's a co-whispering. You commit the crime of conspiracy when you tell someone something,

and you're both in on it. So I think confidelity, confidence is the same thing. I think it's at least two people who undertake the task of trust and reliance. So she was coaching you and you saw a change with over a few weeks of her confidence. Her confidence built. And her belief in herself. Her belief in herself grew when she was in service to helping me. And so, it goes back to the root of the question, how do you build your self-confidence? Or how do you overcome self-doubt? How do you overcome self-doubt?

Help someone else overcome self-doubt. I love that. I love that. You overcome self-doubt by helping. And it's not a selfish thing. I'm only helping you so I can. You have to genuinely love and commit to the person. This person that you're helping, you have to genuinely care about their success and their confidence and commit to the person. This person that you're helping, you have to genuinely care about their success and their confidence

and their lot in life. It's so true. Everything comes back to service. Like I said, it goes back to the origins of humankind, right? Which is we are naturally tribal animals and we actually are at our best when we are in service to each other in a cause greater than ourselves.

The more we focus on what we're lacking, what we don't have, what's not working for us, the challenges we're going through, the more doubt we're going to have. Correct. When we're inwardly focused on what we don't have. Oh, I wish we'd had this conversation about eight months ago because I would have written half the stuff in this book. Well, I'm writing a book on self-doubt right now. Because this is what the infinite mindset is all about.

A finite mindset is win, win, win, be number one, be the best. Me, me, me. Win, win, win meaning win at all costs, not win, win. Correct. Not win dash win. Not win, win. It's win comma win comma win. Because the infinite game is you win, I win, the world wins.

Right? We all win. Humanity wins. It's a whirlwind. That's funny. It's not. We are players in infinite games every day of our lives whether we like it or not. There's no such thing as being number one in marriage.

Like, good luck with that. Right. There's no one who's declared the winner of life. Like, we come, we go. Like, if you make more money than somebody else, you're not the winner of life. Like we come, we go. Like if you make more money than somebody else, you're not the winner of life. Yeah. Sorry.

Sorry, right? Someday you die. Someday you just die and you don't take it with you. Yeah. You know? And there's no such thing as winning business or winning global politics. But if we listen to too many leaders,

they talk about being number one, being the best, and beating their competition. This was me in my entire life. Yeah, it's a lot of people. Until like six, seven years ago when I learned that that doesn't work. And you're an Olympian.

Well, I haven't made the Olympics, but I'm on the Olympic handball team, yes. On the national team. Okay, whatever. You're at the highest levels of athletics. Yes. And you know this from spending time with athletes, which is individual athletes.

I know, it's all about winning. Team athletes tend to be a lot healthier. So like individual athletes, when they reach the top of their game, Michael Phelps, Andre Agassi, they become the greatest in the world. The next thing that happens to them is depression, right? Where as team athletes, you win the World Series, you win the Super Bowl. It doesn't like deep depression is not the next thing that happens.

Some people maybe, but not in general. But it's not in general. And the, you know, Olympic athletes are such a unique, and I talked to a bunch of them for this book. Especially the gymnasts, who are like 16, you have a billion people watching you, you win the gold medal, now what? And it is one of the most selfish, finite pursuits,

because the entire pursuit is, I'm gonna be number one. The gold medal. Right, and they all say the same thing. I want to win the Olympics. Well, you don't actually win the Olympics. You win one event. Yeah. You know, but they all say the same thing.

I'm going to win the Olympics. Right. Then they say nonsense like, I want to inspire all the little children. Not a single one of them on their vision boards has pictures of little children overcoming adversity. You know, they have pictures of them standing on podiums has pictures of little children overcoming adversity. They have pictures of them standing on podiums holding medals, holding up trophies at the vision boards.

It's entirely a selfish pursuit. Any inspiration to little kids is just a lucky strike extra that's really good for the press conference. But not a single one of them is waking up doing it for the kids. I dragged myself out of bed, I'm running in the rain. I miss Thanksgiving for the kids. Didn't happen. Never on any planet.

Right? It was for me. Right. Right? And so there's this, you know, whether they medal or not, even if they were medalists, when they're done with the Olympics and their ability to pursue, they spent their entire lives from their childhood to adulthood striving to be number one. And let's be honest.

They're not the best. They're just better than everybody else that day. That day. Which is really funny to me. Right? Which is you can get a gold medal in pick a sport, ice skating. Right. And you fell in your routine.

But if everybody else fell twice. You're the best. You're the best. Yes. You're the winner. But you the best. You're the winner. But you're not. You're just better than everybody else in the competition because it's finite. And finite has known players, fixed rules, and agreed upon objectives.

It's only the players. But it's not life. And there's an imbalance. Yes, finite games are very important. Finite games and finite objectives are essential in an infinite game. Right? But the infinite game, right? But the infinite game is the context for those finite games. I need to excel or be the best here in order to X, right?

And recognize that this is not the end all be all. The analogy for living with an infinite mindset is not about winning, right? The better analogy is exercise. So how do you be a healthy person? Well, you have to eat well, you have to sleep, get enough sleep, you have to nurse your personal relationships, and you have to exercise. If you do some of those things, you'll be healthier than doing none of those things, but you kind of have to do them all, right? Living an infinite mindset is the same thing. There's a series of practices. Do some, you'll be better than none, infinite mindset is the same thing. There's a series of practices. Do some, you'll be better than none, but you kind of have to do them all, right? And the way the finite mindset fits into

it is I want to get into shape. I've been sitting on the couch for most of my life watching TV. I'm going to get into shape. And I have a fitness goal, a finite goal that I can easily measure, my weight. I can look on a scale and I can measure the progress. And I've made the goal that I'm going to lose this amount of weight by this date. And so I commit to a healthy lifestyle. I eat better, I exercise more, I'm getting more sleep, and I'm watching the weight fall off. And I miss my goal. I don't lose the amount of weight that I wanted to lose by the date. So what? You're still healthier and you're on the road to being healthier. And I can see for a fact that you absolutely will hit the goal later on. And even if you hit the goal, the problem is you can't stop exercising.

You have to do it for the rest of your life. That's what an infinite mindset is. An infinite mindset is more like a lifestyle, which is, yes, absolutely. Having finite goals is very important. We are absolutely driven by goals. We like measuring things. It is much easier to get into the lifestyle of exercise and the habit of it if I have metrics. Look at the insanity of Fitbits and things like that,

which overdone is actually unhealthy and has adverse. Obsessiveness. But we'll talk, you know, it's not the subject. But the point is it's helping people get up and have a healthier lifestyle. We like measuring stuff. It's just a human thing, right? But it's not the subject. But the point is it's helping people get up and have a healthier lifestyle. We like measuring stuff. It's just a human thing, right? But it's not about winning. It's not actually about the goal.

Goals and metrics are simply a way to help us measure speed and distance. I've lost this amount of weight over this amount of time, right? You cannot run a marathon without mile markers. It's unnerving. The mile markers help me measure how far I've gone, how far I've gone, and how fast have I gone. And the metrics we have at work help us measure how far we're moving and how fast we're moving towards a vision that is, for all practical purposes, unrealizable. That's the infinite game. There's a context.

And so when we beat ourselves up because we miss an arbitrary number by an arbitrary date, but the question is, are we building a healthy organization? And I would rather organizations do all the right things to build a healthy organization, even if they miss arbitrary dates. One of my favorite stories is Gary Ridge from WD40. WD40 is a public company. It's decent-sized company, which is kind of incredible because it's basically one product. It's basically one product.

It's Greece. It's, you know, it's a very sophisticated lubricant that was actually made for the space program. But, by the way, we talked about, you know, fancy food,

and their offices, they just moved into a new office recently. Their old offices were a dump. Really? And yet the morale, through the roof.

Why is that? People loved work because it was never about the office. It was about the people. It's never about the office. It was about the people, right? Anyway, they have a lovely new office now, but it's still about the people. That's why I said before, is it the food? Well, it depends on the company. Anyway, he was on one of his quarterly analyst calls and one of the analysts said, you missed your numbers. And Gary said, no, I didn't. I missed yours. Mine are fine. Wow. Right? And that's the point, which is there's nothing wrong with having metrics and goals. Those are very important to human beings. But to what end? What are we serving bigger than ourselves? Right? So my analogy is like an iceberg. Right?

So we know that the majority of an iceberg lies underneath the water. So when there's a tiny, tiny, tiny bit of the iceberg sitting above the ocean, right, it's the visionary who can see beneath the ocean. It's the visionary who stands there and though no everybody sees a tiny or nothing they can see nothing the visionary is able to explain what exists in their imagination only okay it only exists in their imagination and and they inspire a few people to join them because like that's yes we can do that and they start working and a little bit of the iceberg shows. And a few people go, oh, it's going to work. And so they commit to joining the movement or the company and a little

more of the iceberg shows, right? And before too long, enough of the iceberg shows that people can go, this is a real thing. You're not insane and crazy. What you're doing is actually in reality. But the thing is the vast majority of the iceberg still exists under the ocean. And so what the visionary does is constantly remind us where we're going and how much more we have to do. And though we can celebrate

how much we've achieved, how much of the iceberg is sticking up above the ocean, the reality is we have way more work and when I die, it's still going to be the majority underneath the ocean. Right.

And that's what the movement is all about. The metrics help us measure how fast and how far, how much of the iceberg we've revealed. But the infinite game is understanding that the majority of our work still lies undiscovered. Dude, I wish we had three hours because this is amazing, but I want to finish with a few questions

to be mindful of our time. And there's so much more good stuff in this book. I want you guys to get this. Make sure to get The Infinite Game. Check this out. A lot of good stuff that we haven't even started to scratch the surface on, but so much good stuff in this interview. Well, I think everything that we've talked about

has been influenced by what I've learned in that book. Okay. There's a lot more. We don't necessarily have to talk about chapter three, but I can tell you that I write about the ideas that mold me and direct me. My work is semi-autobiographical, you know. Start with why I was born out of my loss of my passion and a discovering of a concept that put me on a road where my passion was greater than I'd ever experienced. And I shared it with my friends.

That's just how it began. And my friends invited me to their homes to share it with their friends. That's just how it started. And how was I to know that there would be a TED Talk and a book? I had no imagination for that. I just knew that I loved sharing this idea, that it was awesomely powerful. And it changed the way I not only saw the world, but operated within it. And Leaders Eat Last was the struggle I was having with trust. I kept meeting members of the military who would lay down their lives for people they didn't even like, where in business, people don't even like to give up credit for things. I wanted what they had.

We call each other colleague and co-worker. They call each other brother and sister. I want that. I want to work in that environment. And so my initial theory was that they're just better people. And you find better people in the military because they're drawn to a life of service. But the more I started to learn, the more I started to discover that it wasn't the people, it was the environment. And that anyone can create those kinds of relationships and that kind of trust if you get the right environment.

That's what I wrote about in Leaders Eat Last, which directed how I live my life and see the world. And now this book is no different, which is in my, I'm an idealist. I imagine a world in which the vast majority of people can wake up every single morning inspired, feel safe at work, and return home fulfilled at the end of the day. And people tell me that I'm crazy. And people tell me, stop being such an idealist. And when I talk to CEOs, they say to me, you don't understand business. And it gets, and too many of us are going to work with an uncomfortable feeling that this isn't what work should feel like. And yet those in power, those with more money than us and more influence than us, than more authority than us, keep telling us that they're right and we're wrong, that we don't understand how business works, that this is how things are. For example,

shareholder supremacy, right? And so we just go to work uncomfortable. But I trust the human instinct. I don't believe that when the majority of people feel that something is not right, that it's the few people who know and the rest of us are wrong. And I got tired of people telling me. And the discovery of this little idea by Jim Kars, you know, he was the first one that really beautifully, eloquently articulated this concept of finite and infinite games. It unleashed a whole new way of seeing the world and realized, oh my God, I'm not the one who doesn't understand business. They're the ones that don't understand business. And oh my goodness, all of us who have this really uncomfortable feeling that this isn't how work should be, we're right.

And so this book is, this concept, and I took Jim's work and the goal was, he perfectly articulated what an infinite game was, but I was stuck with the challenge. It was like, what do we do with that? How do we build upon that? How do I actually apply it? How do I create an organization? How do I change my mindset in order to operate with infinity, to operate with an infinite mindset?

How does it, what practically, what practical things can an organization do, can leaders do to go from a finite mindset to an infinite mindset? That's the challenge I was set upon. And so it has profoundly influenced the way I see the world and profoundly influenced the way in which I navigate through it now. So every answer that I've given you today absolutely has run through the filter and has come through the education of learning about and writing this little treatise.

To wrap things up, what would be three things that a leader of an organization who's listening to this or watching this right now could say, could start to apply? Something that they could do tomorrow. When they go into their work and they've got a team of five people or 5,000 people, and they can get started with three things, a couple things.

A couple things. To start the momentum of creating this family environment of people coming to work. Maybe they don't love everything about their job, but they feel safe. You don't have to like it every day, but you do get to love it every day. Yeah. And they feel safe at home. You don't like your kids every day, but you do love them every day. Exactly.

You feel safe at work. You feel safe at home. You feel like you're part of a bigger mission. What would be three things they could do? And also three things that an employee of companies could do tomorrow going into work. Okay. So the tomorrow thing is a good constraint. So I would say that there are two, three concepts in there that can be done tomorrow.

One is to build trusting teams. And we've talked about this already, which is being the person in charge doesn't make you the leader. Every single person has the capacity to be the leader they wish they had. And so I'm a great believer that leaders are made, not born. It's a skill set.

You can learn it. You can practice it. Not everybody wants to learn it. Not everybody's going to be good at it. And it takes a lifetime of work. It does. And you'll never be the best, right? And so for people who want to be the leader they wish they had, they have to become students of leadership.

You have to read books. You have to watch talks. You have to read articles. You have to have conversations about it. You and I have these conversations when we're not on camera. All the time. All the time. All the time.

Right? We're genuinely interested in the subject. And when we hang out with each other and… That's what we talk about. That's what we talk about. We talk about this stuff all the time. Yeah. Right? So, you know, I talk to small companies all the time and say, we don't have a budget for a leadership training. Do you have the budget to buy a book? Right. Or to listen to podcasts or videos. Have a book club. Yeah. Once a week, get together over lunch and talk about a chapter of a book that everybody's reading. Or an article that you read.

Or a TED Talk. Or a podcast. Give everybody homework to watch something for 18 minutes and then talk about it on Friday at lunch. Congratulations, you have a leadership development program. And don't assign anybody to run it. Ask the people who are already reading the books, watching the talks, and listening to the podcast. Ask them to lead it because they have genuine interest. Every single one of us can be the leader we wish we had.

So on Monday, if you want to be the leader you wish you had, then start really learning. Become a student of leadership. Watch one talk. Listen to one podcast. Buy a new book about the subject, and just do it yourself. Whether the company endorses it or not, do it. That'll make you a better qualified leader of the people to the left. I like that.

So you can do that on Monday. What else can you do on Monday? So one of the things that I go into in this book is about changing our mindset away from having competitors to having rivals. So there are other players in the game, right? A competitor in the game is someone I want to beat, right? But in this game, there's no such thing. And so we have to change our mindset away from having competition, which is finite, and direct it towards having rivalry, which is infinite.

We should not have internal competition, But having rivals internally is fine. You know, we've all had the experience where somebody in our company got promoted and we got angry. Like, what's going on inside you that you got mad at someone else's success? And I generally believe that a worthy rival is someone whose strengths reveal to you your weaknesses.

And we can take that energy and direct it against them in a competitive spirit, or we can take all those uncomfortable feelings and say, where can I grow? What self-work do I have to do? So it's the same in businesses. I'll give you a great example of worthy rivalry. So go back a bunch of years, probably 10, 15 years,

when Starbucks was really becoming a thing. It was a huge backlash because they were putting mom and pops out of business. Do you remember? Turns out that when Starbucks moved into a neighborhood, mom and pops actually did better. Wow. Because a few things happened. One, there was a grassroots rumble to support the local business, and the other is it brought customers.

Now, the problem was there were, remember what coffee shops used to be? Coffee shops used to be some dingy little hole in the wall with a ripped couch, right? Right, right. And when Starbucks moved into our neighborhood, it was nice. It was nice. And so it made them up-level. So the ones that thrived were the ones that saw Starbucks not as a competitor, but as a worthy rival. That Starbucks existence revealed to us our weaknesses and we upped our game. The ones who

went out of business are the ones who got mad that Starbucks was stealing all the customers because they didn't change a thing. I'll give you a perfect example. I'm lactose intolerant, so I don't put milk in my coffee. There was a Starbucks. There's a mom and pop. These are true stories. This happened to me many times in the early days. Mom and pop across the street. I want to support the local business. Walk into the mom and pop from the back of the line and go, hey, do you guys have soy milk? No, we don't. I went across the street to Starbucks because they had soy milk. You went out of business because you wouldn't up your game.

That's worthy rivalry. Worthy rivalry is someone else who's really good at what they do, reveals to me my weaknesses, and it's an opportunity for me to grow and be better at what I do. Taxi companies are suing Uber. It's not Uber. Uber deserves to be sued for a lot of things. Taxi companies are up in arms about

ride sharing. Newsflash, an app is not putting you out of business because you can call a taxi with an app. It's not the app. It's that in some cities, not all cities, the product that I get when I get an Uber is better. Superior. I live in New York City. In general, Uber, Lyft, Juno is a superior product. There's a nice person in a nice car versus getting in the back of a New York City cab, which quite frankly, it's just a shame. It's a bad product. So they can complain about the app and sue the ride sharing companies, or they can up their game, right? We see this over and over again when people complain and file lawsuits against a new competitor, but it's because that competitor is exploiting a weakness that you have an opportunity to

fix. That's the difference between rivalry and competition. Competition I set out to beat, which if it means I have to bring them down, I'll bring them down. Rivalry is about lifting me up. I don't care. This is nothing about winning or losing. This is about lifting me up. I don't care. This is nothing about winning or losing.

This is about constant, constant, constant improvement. Starting tomorrow, find your worthy rivals at work and outside work. In other words, who are the people at work? Our colleagues. Let's be honest. They're better than us. They're better than us. Let's be honest.

They're either better leaders or they're smarter or they're better product development or they're better sales people or they're better designers. Admire them. Learn from them. Grow. Don't see them as people to be beaten. See them as people to reveal to us where we have opportunities for growth. And the same goes for companies. Who are the companies out there in your industry, outside your industry?

You pick your own worthy rivals. It doesn't matter. Pick as many as you want. Who is out there doing a better job than you? Airlines should all admire Southwest because it helps them up their game. Right? Yeah. So who are the other organizations out there who are better than you so it reveals to you opportunities for improvement?

They're really good at that. Yeah. Right? Yeah. What can we do better? You can do that on Monday. I love it. Okay. And then the third one is just the courage to lead, which is the finite game is just easier.

It's more fun. It's the thrill of competition, you know, all of that stuff. It's a thrill, man. The finite game is thrilling and exciting and seductive. Yeah. Right? It's like eating chocolate cake versus eating healthy. It's like sleeping in versus going to the gym.

It's just the momentum for the infinite game, I mean for the finite game, it's just easier, right? The infinite game and the infinite mindset, it's work. It's going to the gym. It's making sure you get enough sleep. It's sacrificing for your friends. It's eating healthy. Do I want to do it?

No. Can I cheat? Of course I can. But, you know, it's eating healthy. Do I want to do it? No. Can I cheat? Of course I can. But, you know, it's hard work. It's hard work to change an organization's incentive structure away from individual achievement and include, not abandon, but include a team effort. It's hard not to see the end of the quarter, the end of the year as the end all be all, but rather just a guidance that are we on the right path? You know, I reject this whole notion of hyper growth companies. I talk to companies like, we're hyper growth. Is that good? I don't know, is that good? Somebody just put on 20 pounds of muscle in a month. Is that healthy? That doesn't sound, I don't know.

Who said hyper growth or that we've organized our company for high-speed growth? Why? Right. For what purpose? Growth is a dial. It's like a retail organization, right? That we're hyper growth. We're going to open 200 stores this year.

Yeah, and in the process, you're not hiring the right people and you're not training them right. And by the way, the store experience, disaster. So guess what? They're all going to close in a couple of years. So you dial it down because you recognize you're growing too fast. It's not healthy. So you dial it down. We're going to open 20 stores this year instead.

Doesn't matter what the pressure from the outside tells us. That's where the courage comes from. It makes more sense for us to open 20 stores, hire the right people, train them properly, get those stores really humming, and then we'll see about, right? So there's nothing wrong with having the 200, but if you recognize that we're actually breaking things on the way to getting 200, you dial it down, right? So I do not believe in hyper growth. I do not believe in fast growth. I believe in healthy growth.

Sometimes it's fast, but sometimes it actually needs to be slower. It's the same for losing weight. It's the same for putting on muscle. I think the only thing that grows for the sake of growth is cancer. Fast. That's the only thing that grows just for the sake of growing. Everything else

should have a reason for growing. I love this, man. I know we could talk forever, but I want to respect your time. Go get The Infinite Game. I feel like I could just listen to you forever. So go get The Infinite Game. I have two final questions for you. I'll try and give shorter answers.

They can get this. Speak slower. You guys can pre-order this. Get this now. It's everywhere books are sold. It's going to be very powerful for you. Whether you're an employee, you're a leader in an organization already, or you're an independent contractor, wherever you're at, this is going to

be powerful for you in your life. If you're running a family, it doesn't matter where you're at. Yeah, it's an infinite mindset. It applies in a lot of places. And this is a question I didn't get to ask you last time because I don't think I started asking it until maybe the next year when it came on. So this is called the three truths. So imagine it's your last day on earth, and many years away. You've created everything you want to create in your life. You've got the family you want, the relationships,

you've built the businesses, your ideals have impacted the world. Whatever you want to do, it's happened. But for whatever reason, you've got to take everything with you. All your books, your work, want to do, it's happened. But for whatever reason, you've got to take everything with you. All your books, your work, your TED Talks,

it's all gone. It's with you to the next world. Oh, you take it with you to wherever. You take it with you to wherever you're going. No one has access

to the infinite game. Oh, okay. All these books. Okay, that's fascinating. So all your body of work has now gone with you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It still exists

in another world. It dies, yeah. But you get to leave behind a piece of paper and write three things down and this is Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It dies. It dies. It dies. Yeah. But you get to leave behind a piece of paper and write three things down and this is what the world has left. Three things you know to be true, three lessons that you would share with the world from everything you've learned up to this point that you think that would be helpful lessons for the world to use as a guide.

What would you say are your three truths? I mean, this is so cheesy, but that's where my mind went. I mean, the first one is start with why. Like know why you do what you do and start there. The second one is commit your life to a life of service. Take care of the people around you. And the third one is commit yourself to a vision of the world that you'll never practically achieve, but you'll die trying. Start with a sense of a foundation of purpose. Take care of the people around you and commit your work to drive something bigger than yourself. That's good. I love this.

to drive something bigger than yourself. That's good. I love this. Before I ask the final question, Simon, I want to acknowledge you for just consistently showing up with so much passion, so much heart, so much wisdom. You do so much research and work into your ideas and you create frameworks so that we can understand them and apply these ideas to our life.

So I acknowledge you for just consistently being you and showing up. And I acknowledge you for finally allowing yourself to get into intimate relationships and allowing the momentum to continue to move while you enjoy other areas of life as well. Well, I'm very, very grateful to people like you because it's because of people like you

that give me a platform to share these ideas, to allow these ideas to exist outside of me, that I can achieve the balance that I promised myself. There you go. Where's part of the message for you, man? I'm super grateful to you. Where's part of the message for you? And we're both working together to invent something bigger than ourselves. That's it.

It's a joy. Final question. What's your definition of greatness? I think greatness is living a life committed to see the others find greatness. For me, greatness is about service. I love it. Me too. Thanks. So good to see you. I am so glad that you took the time to listen to this episode and to connect with a friend about it. I would really love for you to share this with at least one friend. You can be a hero and a champion in someone's life by paying this message forward, by sharing it with one person.

You can text them. You can post it on social media. Let someone know about this episode because it could really help change the way they think, the way they act, and the way they build their life, their business, their brand, their family, their relationship, their health. I want to get this message out there in a big way. And I hope you enjoyed this. If you did, just share it with one friend.

I would love to hear what your thoughts are about this. You can message me over on Instagram, at Lewis Howes. You can send me a tweet, Lewis Howes over there. Just let me know because I'm curious to hear what you thought. I loved this interview. I love connecting with Simon. I feel like he just has so much information. He has so much experience. And every time I get to sit down with him or when we connect over email, it's always just a pleasure to learn from his wisdom. So make sure to share with at least one friend today and ask them to give you thoughts on what was their most insightful part of this episode as well

and have an accountability connection with that friend of yours on this interview and on this episode. If this is your first time here, please subscribe to the School of Greatness over on Apple Podcast. You can just click the subscribe button when you go to Apple Podcast and look for the School of Greatness right there. Leave us a review. I

don't care if you leave me a one-star review, a five-star review. All I care is that you leave a review and let me know, at least in a sentence or two, what you enjoyed about this, how we can make it better, and if it's something you want to continue to listen to in the future. So go ahead and subscribe and leave a review over on Apple Podcast. Again, C.S. Lewis said, humility is not thinking less of yourself. It's thinking of yourself less. If we can come from a place of service first, right? We get to serve ourselves, take care of our needs, take care of our health, take care of our mind, our thoughts, our actions, our relationships. But if we can come from a place of service to other people, I love the part where Simon said, you know, his friend, when he asked his friend to start giving him advice, coaching him,

she was able to get out of herself, out of her self-pity, of her self-destruction, of her self-negative thoughts. And when she added health to his life, she started to grow her confidence. And then she created more abundance in her life. So again, humility is not thinking less of yourself. It's thinking of yourself less. It's putting your effort and energy towards the betterment of other people, towards the people around you, towards your environment, towards your community, towards the earth, towards the planet, towards animals, towards whatever you care about. Put your energy towards other things and start to see your mindset grow in an infinite way and

see the belief about yourself grow as well. If you enjoyed this, my friend, please share it with a friend. Let me know what you think at Lewis Howes over on social media. I love you so very much. I hope you know that you are such an important part of this world. And if you ever feel disconnected, just reach out to a friend. Reach out to a friend and say, hey, I want to be of service to you. Is there anything I can do to support you? Offer a helping hand to someone else and watch the support you gain in return. I love you so very much. I hope you know you're loved. And as always, you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great. Thank you.