The School of Greatness - 890 Finding Happiness Through Fame with Dan Reynolds of Imagine Dragons

Episode Date: December 18, 2019

YOU HAVE TO LET GO. So many of us make decisions because we feel like we have to do something. Whether it’s the religion we grew up in, what our parents want, or what we feel is culturally acceptable, we often betray ourselves. But you can only live this way for so long before you start to break down. You’ll lose sight of who you are and suddenly realize you don’t know how to find it. It’s a lonely feeling. For me, this point came after I got injured in football. I was forced to look at my decisions and figure out what I wanted. On today’s episode of The School of Greatness, I talk about spirituality, relationships, and mental health with one of the most successful musicians of all time: Dan Reynolds. Dan Reynolds is the lead singer of Imagine Dragons and a recipient of the Songwriters Hall of Fame Hal David Starlight Award. He shares how he had a crisis of faith after being raised Mormon. He almost divorced his wife and left everything behind. But he was able to make some changes and find himself again. So get ready to learn how to stop living a people-pleasing life and stay true to yourself on Episode 890. Some Questions I Ask: How were you able to make your relationship work? (05:00) Why do you think people don’t share how they feel? (38:00) Do you believe it’s more powerful to create from a place of pain or love? (43:40) What’s your greatest fear? (42:00) What was the greatest lesson you learned in the last decade? (52:00) In This Episode You Will Learn: Why you can’t live a people-pleasing life (00:00) Dan’s crisis of faith and how Mormonism has affected his life (00:00) About Dan’s work with the LGBTQ community (19:00) Dan’s struggle with depression and anxiety (28:00) Dan’s health journey (45:00) If you enjoyed this episode, check out the video, show notes, more at http://lewishowes.com/890 and follow me on instagram.com/lewishowes

This is episode number 890 with Dan Reynolds of Imagine Dragons. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Henry Moore said,

to be an artist is to believe in life. We're all artists, if you think of it that way, if we all believe in life, if we believe in the magic of life, the wonders, the adventures, the ups and downs, that's what this life is. And Dan Rettles is a singer, songwriter, and record producer. He's best known as the lead singer and frontman of the Grammy award-winning band Imagine Dragons. And he is a liver of life for sure.

He's been around the world. He's been through all the ups and downs, had a lot of pain and a lot of happiness. I'm excited to share this episode and interview with you about him and his lessons of life. Imagine Dragons chart-topping single Radioactive holds the record for the most weeks charted on the Billboard Hot 100. That's staggering. And Rolling Stone called it the biggest rock hit of the year. Billboard named them their breakthrough band of 2013 and the biggest band of 2017. Dan is also the recipient of the Songwriters Hall of Fame Hall David Starlight Award. In 2018, he began to talk about his physical and mental health struggles on social media accounts

and continues to offer encouraging messages of support to his fans and others struggling as well. And in this episode, we talk about the challenges of marriage and what Dan has learned about making relationships work. The powerful lessons about love that Dan learned from his family and upbringing. We talk about destigmatizing mental illness and the power of being open and honest about it. Why it's important to listen to your body and advocate for your health. Dan's biggest piece of advice that he's learned from being a rock star, a family man, and an advocate for mental and physical health, and so much more.

I'm excited about this. If you're a big fan of Dan or Imagine Dragons, make sure to share this with a friend, lewishouse.com slash 890. Text someone, post it on social media. You can tag me and Dan Reynolds as well, and let us know that you're listening. All right, we've got Dan Reynolds here. Welcome to the School of Greatness podcast, man. Super excited about this. Thank you for being here. You have been blowing up on the world with

your music and your message. Your music is unbelievable and it's addictive. And I think it's in the top of the charts because it's so inspiring and addictive. But your message is what is interesting for me. I think there's a lot of artists that become popular but don't have a message that says something meaningful.

And you have that, which is really cool and inspiring. So I'm glad you're here. Thanks, man. I appreciate it. And I'm curious about, as I was doing research on you, I'm curious about marriage. Because I'm a single guy. I've got a girlfriend who I've been dating for a year.

Oh, nice. She's about to move in in a few weeks. Okay. It's been a long distance for almost a year. And you've been married, and I read that you almost got a divorce, or you were talking about divorce. Separation for seven months. Seven months, and now you're still married, and I read that you almost got a divorce, or you were talking about divorce. Seven months. Seven months, and now you're still married.

We're back together. We've been together for about a year and a half, and have had a baby boy together in that time. So yeah, it's been a wild ride. How long were you married? You've been married the whole time. We've been married for eight years. Yeah, we never got divorced, but we were going to.

But then we were separated. We kind of just learned a lot about ourselves during that time period, about six months, seven months. And then we were literally going to sign the papers and went to lunch to talk about it. And then we ended up getting back together. So you were separated for seven months. Were you not living together? Were you not speaking? We didn't even really talk. Yeah. Yeah, other than I was on tour for those whole seven months, and the kids would come out and visit and stay with me a couple times a month and back with her. So it was basically zero communication for seven months.

Wow. After being together for, at that point, six years, seven years? Seven years, I think, because I remember someone saying, oh, it's the 7-year itch or something. Oh, right. It's like hard at 7 years. Yeah, 7 years. 7 months. Supposedly, that's the thing.

Yeah. I guess 7 is the unlucky number. Right. I'm the 7th son, too, of 8 boys. I'd say you're pretty lucky. Yeah. How lucky you've created. Yeah, exactly.

So, okay, so give me some advice, if you can. I'm about to get into a more committed relationship. Why do you think that it got to a place where there was this disconnection or separation or lack of communication or whatever it was? Yeah, that's a good question. And what would you have done differently so that it didn't get to that point? I would say my best advice so far, just if I was reflecting on my relationship for anybody, would just be, first of all, of course, communication is everything. That's kind of cliche, right? But I would also say I had a really hard time in my life knowing what I wanted.

I felt like a lot of my decisions were made for me. I was raised in a really conservative family. I felt like there was this path that was kind of carved by seven boys in front of me. And then I kind of had to follow it. They were all Eagle Scouts. And like, it was like, this is the Reynolds way. And I fought against that my entire life. I was like the one who was getting in trouble. I was the one who had a hard time with religion.

It didn't really work for me. But I also didn't want to disappoint. I had all these people in front of me that were so successful. And then, you know, they all got married and they all had kids. So, oh, I need to get disappoint. I had all these people in front of me that were so successful. And then they all got married and all had kids. So oh, I need to get married. I need to have kids.

So every decision in my life, I mean, I made it. I was a victim of myself, really. I was being a stupid victim. But I also at the same point was like, I feel like I've just been forced into all these things. I'm a victim of myself. So I think where I finally made a big turn in my life is I realized that I am free to make my own decisions and I'm able to actually say, well, what do I want?

And am I making this decision for anyone else but for myself? So I think my first question to you would be, are you with this woman a hundred percent just solely on the fact that you want to be? And when I say that, of course, I'm not saying somebody's holding a gun to your head saying, but maybe there's like pressures of like, I really love her now and I don't want to hurt her or let her, like, all of that aside. Why are you just here? Because you want to be here every single day. Are you there every day because of that not because of any pressure of I don't want to be single anymore or people ask me You do like why am I still single or do you need to be married or like a married? Yeah. Yeah So being able to get to a point in life where you really can let go

I had to get to a point where I was able to completely let go of It's okay to disappoint people around you. It's okay to just upset everyone. Even if that's whatever it takes for you to be happy. Isn't that one of the hardest things is not letting other people down? Not disappointing other people? It was my greatest strength and greatest flaw of my life was really being, I hate the term people pleaser because it just sounds so corny, but kind of what I did my whole life. I'd meet someone and be like, what do I need to give this person?

For them to like you. For them to like me, to feel comfortable. It's a good trait. Let me meet you and find out what you need from me and then I'll be a chameleon and I'll give you exactly. Man, isn't that crazy? Yeah, and then it just bites you in the ass and it actually hurts everybody around you. It's pretty terrible quality to have.

Yeah. I mean, I can relate to that. But it takes a lot of release to realize that because you want to be polite still and kind and you want conversations to be easy, but sometimes they just need to be hard. And sometimes you have to have, face hard truths. And so I guess, I don't know that I have great advice other than. So why did you get to the point of like, okay, we're going to separate? Because it was solely me. It was my fault. I got to a point where I thought,

am I sure that where I am in life right now is exactly where I wanted to be? I was like going through a faith crisis. I'd been raised Mormon and I was like, I don't know if I believe this stuff, but I've been doing it for all these other people. Man, I'm'd been raised Mormon and I was like, I don't know if I believe this stuff but I've been doing it for all these other people. Man, I'm like 30 years old and I don't know that I can't point at any decision. Did I marry Asia

because I knew I loved her but I was like, but do I know that I want to be married? Is this like something that I want, right? Like did I choose all, it sounds so selfish saying this out loud but I'm trying to be really honest with you. But I was just,

felt like I was in a cage. And I felt very claustrophobic. And not because of her. She was absolutely wonderful. But because I was just a victim of feeling like I didn't have free agency my entire life. Even though I totally did. You made the decisions. You proposed.

You got married. You could have any time backed out, but you felt this pressure from family and friends. Yeah, or from myself, my own head. So I guess my greatest advice, it might not be a thing for you, but for me it was, I wish somebody had said to me, Dan, you don't have to do anything. You don't have to move in together. You don't have to be at this table right now. You don't have to be nice to me. You don't have to move in together. You don't have to be at this table right now. You don't have to be nice to me.

You don't have to do anything. Do you. And be honest. It's going to be okay. You'll still have friends with the people who should be your friends. And you'll still, it'll all turn out okay. And so I think that I wish somebody had just really helped me to feel okay about doing whatever I needed to do in life. Did you feel a bigger sense of pressure from family during that separational period?

No, they all were very, like, they knew Dan is unpredictable. He's a rebel artist. He's an artist. He's just, and he's a real, like, wow, what a horrible, like, I definitely, he's an artist he's just and he's a really like wow what a horrible like I definitely I went away and I talked to nobody because I I genuinely felt like everybody thought well that's a shitty person and I thought man they deserve to think that you're right I really was in that I was in a really dark dark head space and I was like I don't free and just go be free I don't care how many people hate me. I really, I don't care.

The only, the hardest part for me was how much it hurt Asia. But I just had just, I knew that I, it wasn't a choice for me at that point. I just kind of, I just had to go on a journey. Yeah. And I almost completely lost her. I probably should have, but she went on a journey for herself and I went on a journey for herself, and I went on a journey for myself. And it just worked out that we found, I for sure, and hopefully she, I can't speak for her, but found out that absolutely we wanted to be together, you know, and do this. So you recommitted from a free choice, not a pressure choice. Yeah, it felt like it was like we washed it all clean, and then we came back to each other, and we dated. We were like, let's go on a date. No commitment we dated, we were like, let's go on a date.

No commitment to me or you, like let's go on a, and then, no, that was fun, let's go on a second date. And so it was all, it was like back to square one, like rewind 10 years previous, back to square one. That's pretty cool, man. Yeah. What was the biggest challenge you faced on tour during that time, being alone and being, you know?

I could be self-destructive. So yeah, I think I was just, it was hard to love myself, I think. Really? Yeah, I think so. I felt like a bad guy, and I just kind of was like, well, I am the bad guy, so what does a bad guy do? Whatever he wants. Whatever a bad guy does, that's who I am, so I'll play the role. So I think, you know, there is a bit of that for

sure. I don't know. This is the first time I've talked about this out loud. So I don't know. I'm still formulating in my head exactly what it was like, but looking at it, it was, it was a very important time in my life. It was the first time I felt completely free because I was like, I let go of caring. And now I'm at this new space in my life where I just, it time I felt completely free because I was like, I let go of caring. And now I'm at this new space in my life where I just, it's not that I don't, I'm not saying don't care about people. I'm just saying, don't ever dictate the way that your decisions that are going to, especially your most important decisions based on pressures of other people, your parents, your friends, they should make choices for themselves and you should make choices for you.

And if they love you, they're going to respect you. As long as you're not hurting people or being a bad human being. You have to make your own decisions. Have your family been supportive of the artist way that you have and the bad decisions and the good decisions? Have they always been supportive and respectful? Yeah, I think... Or have you had to take some distance from them at times?

I never really took distance from my family. Me and my mom had a time period where we were having a hard time communicating. It was when I was really dealing with my faith crisis. Yeah. And she's very religious, and that was hard for me. Sure. And I had resentment feeling like, why did you raise me in this? And then I was like, then I came to the realization. This is a whole other conversation, but I had like resentment feeling like why did you raise me in this and then I was like then I came to realization there's a whole nother conversation but I came to realization

like oh she was just trying to tell me what give me the best things that she thought she had to give me like how can I be mad at my mom for like telling me what she believes and thinking would be the best thing for me but um no no my family really I think I it was kind of one of those things where it's like if you beat someone down enough, they're like, well, just the way Dan is. You know, it was like I got kicked out of college before that. I got, you know, I had all kinds of things growing up that kind of got my mom to a point where she was like, I had, I feel like I tell my younger brothers, I'm like, man, you got it really easy because I broke mom in. I like really broke my parents in, I'm like, man, you got it really easy because I broke my men. I really broke my parents. You can do whatever you want.

Yeah, they had a lot of good, straight and narrow kids. And then I came along and kind of, yeah. Now you talk about the challenge you had with your faith. You grew up LDS. Yeah. Where are you at with the faith now or what was the realization you had? I really am a spiritual person. I believe in spirituality.

I think it's an important part of my existence. And I'm on a quest, I think, every day to find truth and light and to hopefully be a light and find truth. I think it's a dangerous concept. I feel like you're at a point of arrival. I think I'm always searching and I'm always like, wow, that feels true. And I like that. It doesn't feel true.

I don't like that. And just kind of like listen to everyone and be open. So I wouldn't call myself religious. I do still identify as Mormon, but more culturally than anything. I think I have a lot of loyalty to that community. They're like my people. I went on a mission for two years. I got beat up with other missionaries.

Really? You got slurpees thrown at you. You get spit on. You know what I mean? So it kind of unites you. People tell you to get away from me and don't talk to me. Yeah. Or just growing up being a Mormon, it's not cool.

It's never been, unless you live in Utah or something. I didn't. I grew up in Las Vegas. Yeah, in Utah, everybody's Mormon. So it's like if you're not Mormon, you're probably not cool. Hey, come on over. But in Vegas, it's not cool to be in middle school and be like, I'm Mormon. Everybody's like, that guy's a pilgrim or something.

You wear special garments. And then you get Broadway plays that are all about how stupid you are. They're funny. I'm not knocking the Mormon musical. But it doesn't help that you as a Mormon kid, you're a dummy to everyone. You're kind of like the butt of everybody's joke when it comes to religion. Mormons are freaks. You're allowed to make fun of Mormons all you want.

It's actually kind of loud that I'm at a point where I'm kind of on the outside. I look at it and I'm like, it kind of is. Look, there's some things about Mormonism. Look, you guys are messing up on this and I'm trying to help with that, especially when it comes to LGBTQ things and stuff. That's a whole other conversation. But that being said, Mormons are like free game for everybody to pick on. I'm like, it's not that cool. It's not cool to pick on anybody, period. But especially when it comes to people's religions, I'm like, why is it okay to, you know,

like we're not allowed to pick on this religion, but we can pick on that one, but not this one. I'm like, well, all Orthodox religions are messing things up in certain ways so either we make fun of them all or let's take it all off the table it's a little like hypocritical but whatever are you do you have a relationship with the church or the do they support you do they not because you're honestly i have no idea what the leaders of the mormon church think about me if they think i'm like a thorn in their side or something because of i you know i really believe in because I really firmly believe that our Orthodox religions are hurting our LGBTQ youth by telling them, hey, look, you're most innate sense of being, it's flawed.

What are they saying to the community? Well, just in general, I mean that you're telling a child that they need to love a specific way. that they need to love a specific way. And it's a very dangerous thing to, I grew up with some of my friends who are Mormon and gay. And before they came out, I think anyone who was close to them,

we knew they were, yeah, we knew, but it was like, they definitely didn't talk about it because it wasn't safe for them to. It wouldn't have been accepted in their family at all. They had a really, really hard road in front of them. And I watched that and it was hard to watch that. Much harder for them, but being their friend, your heart hurts for them, you know? And then I watched some of these guys go on missions

and come back and they didn't feel safe to come out until some of them were in their late 20s, 30s. And then they lost family over it and lost friends. And it was, and then they lost family over it, lost friends, and it was like, it's devastating. So for me, just watching that, it made me feel like, ah, this is broken. And then you look at the stats, and it's like the number one reason for death

among teenagers in Utah is suicide. Really? Mm-hmm, suicide. And then on top of that, if LGBTQ youth aren't accepted in their home or community, they're eight times more likely to take their life. So you put those two stats together and it's no wonder that we're losing so many LGBTQ youth to suicide. It's not because they're broken.

It's not because they have mental issues or something. It's because our society and our culture is broken and we've kind of created this really desolate place for them. It's like, here, let me raise you in this religion. Let me tell you from a young age that this is everything. Like, God loves you based on this or not. Only if you do this. If you do this.

And by the way, if you are LGBTQ, you know, you can still be religious, but just be celibate or hide it. And then it's like you're setting them up for a really unhealthy lifestyle that's just impossible to live by. And someone who's unable to share their truth, whether it's right or wrong, good or bad, if you're not able to express your truth or who you feel like you are in that moment, is setting people up for big failure. If we're unable to share how we feel, express ourselves.

Now, Curious, what do you feel like is your truth after all these, you know, years of trials and tribulations and ups and downs and marriage and almost divorce and back together and kids and religion and non-religion? Right, right. I don't feel like I have

a core like, this is the truth, like I said. Lots of little truths. But I think my main principle that I try to abide by is it's a simple concept, and it's been said a million times. But I really try to meet people and just say, you know what? They were raised with whatever came, you know what however you were raised how would i have been if i was that person i would probably be worse you know i'd probably have been a worse human being than them so i think you know it's like everybody is living in this world right now where everyone's

screaming at each other they're like stupid, stupid Republicans. And the Republicans are like, stupid Democrats. And like the religious people are stupid atheists, stupid religious. It's like, right. But if you were just born in a different state or a different home or different city or different, yeah, you just would be different. And so it's so silly to me

that we're spending our entire existence as humans mocking each other based solely upon where you were born, what you were born into. It's not someone's choice. They just were born to be gay or they were just born to be... You don't have this choice to be raised in this family that's Baptist or raised, like whatever it is, like how can you judge someone off that? It's really silly.

How can you even judge them if they're in their 40s and they have all the free will in the world and they're still doing that? Maybe you would have. Maybe you would still be doing all those exact same things as that person. Or maybe in some area of your life you're still that way. You're still fixed in a way based on how you were raised. Right. And you haven't chosen a different based on how you were raised. Right. And you haven't chosen a different way.

Yeah. Or a new belief. Yeah, so I guess my just true abiding principle is just to realize, you know, realize that and just love people. Just come at things with love and... Compassion. Compassion. And look, if someone's going to burn you like three times in a row or whatever it is, like, you know, then don't take time for that person. Yeah, but not for you.

Yeah, but not for you. Spend time with someone else, you know. Who would you say was your greatest teacher growing up? My mom and dad, for sure. My dad just quietly has worked his entire life. He still is working and he's late 70s or something. Well, I'm sorry if I got that wrong, dad. I think mid 70s.

He's just worked his whole life. He's a quiet guy who grew up on a farm, kind of farm boy mentality, hardworking, very conservative Mormon father who just has, you know, believes strongly in the things he believes and was a great dad and is a great dad. And my mom was very outspoken, very intelligent,

very like strong, strong woman. Could have done anything, was like the valedictorian of her college. I think that has a different term for it. I don't know what it's called. But could have gone into medicine and done a lot of great things. And she decided to have nine kids instead. What was the greatest lesson she taught you?

To love, I think. Yeah, like true empathy, true love. Like I was talking at this seminar the other day that was in Utah actually, and it was a LGBTQ summit. We had this part where we were talking to parents, and I don't know why I'm not qualified to talk about any of these things as like a cisgender straight man,

but I was raised Mormon, so I could speak to that a little bit and things like that. But anyway, so I'm speaking to these people and was talking about how the second a parent says, I love you, but it's just not love. Second anybody in your life, the second anybody says this, if your girlfriend says this to you, anybody, I love you, but this is my view on something.

That's not what love is. It's just not. So your LGBTQ child, I love you, but religion tells me, that's not love. Love is just I love you. That's it, that's the end of the conversation. That's love, otherwise it's not love. And that's something my mom taught me.

Because I was really difficult. I was a difficult child and she just. She had to love you. Yeah, and she loved me. There was no but at the end of it. No, I never felt but from her. She strongly wanted me to do things. She strongly wanted me to be a good Mormon boy and be an Eagle Scout and go on a Mormon mission. She didn't miss me, yeah.

But she didn't force me to do it. As I get older, you know, if you would have asked me this two years ago, I'd have been like, my mom forced me to go on a mission or something. As I get older, I look back and I'm like, you know, I could have said no to any of it. She wouldn't have kicked me out. She might've been disappointed or maybe. She would have been disappointed, yeah. And she would strongly emphasize things, but I had a choice and I made my choice. Yeah. Even though there was a lot of pressure and you felt like you wouldn't please your mom, that was more a reflection of you than her. Yes. Yes. Good point.

Right. Yeah. Yes. Good point. Right. Yeah. I can relate to that. You started opening up about seeing therapists or therapy and depression. Some people might say, man, you were the top of the world. You were the biggest artist. Right.

Number one hit songs for, I don't know, a thousand weeks in a row, whatever it is. You're touring the world, sold out arenas. How could someone like that ever feel depressed or ever feel lonely or insecure when they have everything that I could imagine wanting myself? Yeah, I think it's a really redundant thing. It feels like to say this, but I'm just going to say it because it's a real big truth for me. Happiness does not come from achievements. It just doesn't... I won't say happiness doesn't come from some money. There's like a... I will say this. Yeah, there's like... What's it make?

50 grand a year? You're like, I can't... You have enough money to do the things you want to do for the most part. Buy that little thing you've always wanted to buy, like your bike that you want to go mountain biking with, have your house or have an apartment, have food. Like those things, absolutely. Anybody who tells you money doesn't make you happy, I would say, I call BS on that. You're right.

I've been so broke. When my wife and I got married, we were totally broke musicians, both of us living in a one-bedroom studio apartment that we barely could afford. In Vegas or where were you guys? In L.A., actually, in Hollywood. Because we were trying to break into the scene, so we both. What year was this? This is 2009.

So 10 years ago. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, something like that. 2009. With a baby sleeping in the closet and no medical insurance. And, like, we're just, it was a really, you know, scary time for us. But, and so we were happy, but we were very stressed.

So, anyway, so. Anxiety. A little bit of money, absolutely important. Yeah, yeah. But, sorry, what was the question? When people are asking, like, how could someone like you be depressed when you have all this. Right. So, I'll sweep back before that.

So when I was in like middle school slash high school, I started to really deal with serious depression and anxiety. And the way I describe that is because I know some people are like, well, I've heard people who haven't. Were you really depressed? Yeah. Were you just anxious? Were you just sad? And I'm like, no, depression is not just sadness. Depression is like, the way I'd explain it to someone who's never experienced depression is numbness, grayness, a loss of interest in every single thing

that usually gave you excitement to do, like what other sports or music, whatever it is. I just, it was like, I just went numb. And I just felt like my existence was a cloud. Like I felt when people talked to me, I could hardly even engage. I could hardly even listen. Totally antisocial. All these things that come with major depressive disorder were happening to me. I don't know if it was some genetic thing. I don't know if it was a trigger from dealing with my spiritual crisis. I don't know. It was a matter of just being Dan

Reynolds. I don't know what it was, but it just, I should have been happy. I had a really great life. You know, but that doesn't indicate whether or not some people get depression. So went to a therapist, dealt with therapy for many years, helped me a lot in middle school, high school. Uh, yes. High school. Gotcha. Um, helped me a lot. Went to a therapist while I was on my Mormon mission, came home from my mission and went to therapist. I still go to a therapist today. And it's made all the difference for me. Absolutely. So, but when you grew,

when you're a child of the 90s and you grow up then, it was very different. It was like, don't talk about being depressed. Because if you're depressed then you're weak. Or don't talk about your feelings or that you're sad or lonely or insecure. Right, because then people are like, oh, that person. Right.

We're the normal people. He's weird. He's the depressed guy. You know what I mean? It definitely was super stigmatized. We're better now a little bit, but then it was like nobody's talking about seeing a therapist. That's not cool at all. So one of the first things I really wanted to start talking about to help destigmatize as good as I could now,

which a lot of people are doing, which I think is fantastic, is saying, I have a therapist, dealt with depression, dealt with anxiety, part of my life. Because if someone were saying that to me when I was in high school or something, oh my gosh. It's normal. Yeah. I was like, oh, that person I look up to who has it all, who has it all, is still depressed just like me. Oh my gosh. He's going to be all right, you know? Yeah, I feel like it's been a battle for men. You know, I grew up, I was born in 83, so I grew up in the 80s and 90s. And I wasn't even allowed to really like put my arm around a friend, like a guy friend. Right.

Without being called fag, gay, wussy, weak, little girl, whatever the term was. You know, just a buddy. Like in the locker room. Just toxic masculinity. on the sports teams. And I wrote a book a couple of years ago that came out called The Mask of Masculinity, which is about how men can be more vulnerable and how vulnerability is the key to healing and to freedom for men. And I opened up about being raped as a kid and what that effect had on me growing up in

relationships and just like not being able to talk about that for 25 years. And I've talked about it a lot now, but not being able to talk about anything, any type of pain or insecurity or anything. Because I didn't feel like I could ever share with anyone. Although if I put my arm around a guy and I was called a negative name, just like a little bit of friendship, or if I started to talk about something I was insecure about, it was like, get away from me. So imagine someone who's gay and it's not being accepted, not being able to do it. You understand that. And I remember I was just like, I always felt like I couldn't share things that actually happened because I would never be accepted or loved. And the moment I started opening up about it, which was about six years ago, started opening up to my friends, family, and then publicly, like the pain started

to go away and I started to become less of a prisoner of the fear because I put it out there. And I think when men specifically who don't like to open up, learn how to open up and be more vulnerable, even just with a therapist in a private setting, I'm not saying say this publicly to the world, but when we start to open up, you say you start to feel better. You can manage the anxiety or depression or negative thoughts or insecurities. Why do you think so many people still today don't share how they feel with even someone where it's confidential why don't they seek that out why do they try what do we try to hold it yeah i mean look it's first of all like we said it's something that has just been a part of

like toxic masculinity for a long time you can't be vulnerable you need to be a strong man that's just perfect and put together and and the woman needs to be this and here's a feminine quality and this is a man. There's no in between. There's no anything. It's just you're either this or that. For sure, I also think today it can be really unhealthy social media. It can be really unhealthy. I think people spend a lot of time

on it and they scroll through these pictures and they look and they're like let's click on this family. Wow, they look beautiful in every picture. Look at the beach. They're like, they're traveling a lot. We need to travel more. We haven't traveled in a while. I haven't gone on a vacation. Well, these people are on vacation all the time. Hey, look at this person. Oh my gosh. She looks so great in makeup all the time. Why did I don't look like that when I put my makeup on? Like, it's like this, these thoughts are going through everybody's mind all the time.

And that creates this real false narrative that there are people out there that if you just could be, they're just great. They're fantastic. They wake up every day and they're like, oh yeah, this is great. I love myself. I look so good. I'm going to go on a vacation every day. Like it's like, no, that's not, that doesn't exist. It doesn't exist. And then people get into this dangerous thing where they're like, if I get that, then this. And then you get that. And let me tell you what happens when you get that.

Oh, wait, wait, wait. If I get that, then this. If I get that and it just goes on nonstop, you never feel fulfilled. It's never, it's not even that it's enough. It's not even like there's a tank and you're filling it a little bit. It's actually this tank stays at zero. It's literally the bowl. It's emptier it's not even that it's enough. It's not even like there's a tank and you're filling it a little bit. It's actually this tank stays at zero.

It's literally the bowl. It's emptier and emptier. You're still climbing. You're just, if you're looking for achievements, don't get me wrong. It feels incredibly great when you're like working for some like job and you get that job that you've always wanted. Like, yes, absolutely. But that's not what happiness is. It's a moment of that.

Yes. Then you got the rest of your life to be happy and choose it. Yes. Oh, now not what happiness is. It's a moment of that. Yes. Then you got the rest of your life to be happy and choose it. Yes. Now I need that promotion. I really don't like this job until I get that promotion. It's always... It's a endless rat race. Do you feel like it's amplified for artists who are on massive stages with the pressure?

He was just talking about that he was a photographer for a big artist. I won't say her name, but stopped working with her. And just the toxicity of the industry of the jealousy and the competition. Oh, it's such a ruffer. And the pressure to, I remember interviewing Steve Aoki. And I was like, what's your biggest fear? And this was like the height a couple years ago of his documentary. And just like tour every night of the year.

And he goes, staying relevant was his biggest fear that he shared on the podcast. He's a really nice guy. Super nice guy. He's like, you know, the fear of like just being relevant. Are people going to want to listen to my stuff? Yeah. In a week, in a month, in a year.

Are people still going to like my music? Is it still interesting for people? Yeah, it could be. And the pressure of like once you're up there, it's almost more pressure to stay and get bigger, not decline. Right. Right? Oh oh yeah for sure it was it the saddest part to me of the industry is these are a bunch of artists that are sharing the whole point of artistry is you're sharing a really vulnerable

part of you you're like let me tell you all what i write in my journal at night that's basically what it is like here's my journal these are the things i'm writing by the way let me go to the rooftop and say to everybody. And so the second that becomes a competition of like, oh, this person's journal, and especially when people are like, it's not subjective. It is completely subjective. Whose journal do you want to listen to?

That's going to be a subjective thing. Whose journal is better than other people? That's going to be a subjective thing. So the second artists are, and then when artists are turning on each other, it's just, it makes me sad. And that is something about the industry. And I watch people just get torn apart because they'll express their most heartfelt thing and then it's just, it just is, people just eat it out. They just criticize it. They're like, this guy life. They just criticize it, they'll judge it.

They're like, this guy sucks, this girl is no good, whatever, and just, you pour your heart out. This is cooler, this is not as cool. There's a lot of great art and songs and movies that have stemmed from an emotional pain or suffering seeming, where people talk about their pain and it becomes this beautiful hit where people relate to it. It's a number one bestseller, whatever.

Do you believe it's more powerful to create from a place of pain or love? That's a great question. Which one is more sustainable? Well, I would say I've definitely written a lot more from pain than love. I have written very few love songs. So I don't know that I'm the best person to ask this question to because I don't have a whole, I have a really hard time writing a love song without feeling like, oh, this just doesn't feel right.

It's not authentic or real. Yeah, it's just like, I'm not gonna write a song just to write a song. Don't get me wrong, I've written a few love songs, but if I were to put it on paper, it's like 90% of Imagine Dragons songs are like pain. They're epic though. You're like, yeah.

There's like 5% of just I'm completely happy. Bliss. Yeah, like on top of the world. Life is amazing. I just felt great. Then there's like the 5% of love songs. For me, I remember I was talking with one of my friends the other day and he was telling me that he's having a really hard time writing and i was asking him why and he said well because

i'm really happy oh man so i'm just really happy as all the songs he was churning out he just thought he felt like he was reaching for something i'm not saying you can't write a song we're really happy but maybe it's more just like in a peaceful state i don't know that art it does exist and some people are in like total Zen mode, probably writing great songs and poetry and stuff. But I would think that most art comes from pain. If I had to, if I'm just guessing,

I guess most art comes from this place of insecurity, pain, hurt, questioning. And then love is maybe second, you know, on the list. I don't know. That's just what i listen to so maybe i'm just uh it's just a product of what i choose to listen to sure no what is your greatest fear well if i were to say my greatest fear on just a level like i think there's like two levels

of fear there's like there's fears that are like the common like spiders or you know and then there's the fears that are like deep fears so on the the common fears, I would say I'm very claustrophobic. I don't want to get stuck in an elevator or in a coffin. That for me is like, like I've had one time where I was stuck in an elevator and it was, I was literally, it was like begging. Yeah, it was like only 30 seconds or something. And I'm going to die in here.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was intense. I can't even talk about it without getting chills. So that would be like the trite fear. But a deep fear for me is losing people I love, for sure. I know that a lot of people say that. But for me, that authentically, I've lost quite a few, maybe an unusual amount of friends over the years. a few, maybe an unusual amount of friends over the years.

Yes, to drug abuse, to suicide, or cancer. Those three things. Those seem to be just a prevalent source of just, they're just like these demons that are lurking over all my friends and family throughout the years. I said this to, I don't know if you know Lindsay Sterling. Yeah, yeah. But she's LDS. The violin Lindsay Sterling. Yeah, yeah. But she's LDS. The violin player, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. She was on about a year ago, and she had some deaths in her family and her life. And I was talking to her about it. I was like, you know what? One of my fears is I've met so many people, just like you. I've interviewed so many people. I've become friends with people. I've had so many friends in sports and business and all walks of life. And not many people. I've become friends with people. I've had so many friends in sports

and business and all walks of life. And not many people have died. Right. And I don't know what it's going to be like losing someone. Like eventually I'm going to die or they're going to die. Right. And if I'm alive, someone's going to die at some point. Yeah. How do you handle grieving death of someone who's close or even maybe not that close, but just people you interact with and are friends with. You know, I wish I knew the answer. I'm going really through something right now where I'm really trying to make peace with that.

I'm like frantically searching for some set of peace, some way to make peace with the people I've lost. I like just started reading this book, proof of heaven. I'm like, you know what I mean? I'm like, I'm like someone,

please. Yeah. But i think that's that's an important part of life because otherwise i was just stagnant kind of as just like uh what you know we're gonna live and then you're like i'm gonna live forever you just you're not thinking that no you know it's going to get to a point in your life the tipping point where you're going to start to lose people around you whether it's you get older and it's just heart attacks and things like that or if you make friends with a lot of people who apparently, you know, have whatever it's drugs or whatever it is like me, I've lost quite a few friends to that.

So, um, what do you do about it? I, I, I don't have a great answer for it other than, um, I just choose to believe that I'm going to see them again. And I know a lot of people are like, you know, there's a lot of atheists who are like, why choose to believe in BS? And I went through a phase actually where I was really at that point. I was very like angry about religious people and very angry towards anyone who believed in it. I was like, just, what? You know what?

It's funny because I turned into the person, it was one of the first people I met on my mission walked up to me and said, he was like, look at you, this missionary. He was like, I just want to tell you, kid, religion is for weak people. Oh, your first day. First day.

You're like 19. Yeah, you're on the street like, hello, I'm Elder Reynolds. Can I teach you about, you know, the Church of Jesus Christ, the Latter-day Saints. And this guy You're like 19. Yeah, you're on that street like, hello, I'm Elder Reynolds. Can I teach you about, you know, the Church of Jesus Christ and the Latter-day Saints? And this guy just looked at me and said, religion is for weak people. And I was just like, oh.

He's like, just people who can't handle the truth. So I went through this phase where I was there. I was like, you know what? All these people like making up these things just because they can't face the harsh reality of life. You're going to live and then you're going to die. You'll be nothing. You're just nothingness in the screen.

Like I definitely went through that phase and I'm not knocking on people who are there because it's just as possible that that's the truth as something else. Like any, what I have a problem with is when people tell me, I know it's this. That's true. You don't know. Yeah, that's what bothers me. Either way, no one knows. I'm just as bothered by the atheists telling me that they know as I am as the Mormon telling me they know.

I don't want anybody to tell me they know as a fact. Let's just all settle on the fact that we don't know 100%. Yes, yes. So I went through that phase, and now I'm at a place where I've had one experience that I can really look to that I was like, I don't know how to explain that. And it gives me a little bit of hope in a cool way that I always wanted look to that I was like, I don't know how to explain that. And it gives me a little bit of hope in a cool way that I always wanted my whole life. I was like, God, if you're there, like I would pray every day.

I'm like, God, as a Mormon kid, like God, give me what is going on with my family. They all believe in this thing because I guess you're answering their prayers, but you're certainly not answering my prayers. Like just wiggle my bed or like just do something. Turn the lights on. Yeah, something. And bed or like, just do something. Turn the lights on. Yeah, something.

And relentlessly, I prayed for that. Nothing. And then, you know, you're always taught that church is like, well, the miracle secret is never get the miracle.

I'm like, well, what the hell? Am I like supposed to not want an answer then and then I get the answer? Like, you just can't win, you know? Sure. So, yeah.

But now I'm in a place where I've had certain things happen where I do. I feel a closeness to some people who have passed. And some people can call it emotion, whatever that is. That might be the truth. But for me, I feel like there's something more. And I tell my daughter that.

I tell my kids that, yeah. Yeah, that's cool. You got a few more questions, okay? Okay. Yeah. She's like, talk about ankylosing spondylitis, Dan. I get you.

God, there's so many things I want to ask you, but I want to respect for your time. I can tell you a little bit of health. Health. Okay.

So, let me just tell you about all my problems. Yeah. Let me complain. So, the biggest thing, the things that I'm

most passionate about are the LGBTQ community because of the reasons I explained. Yeah. Obviously, religion and talk of those things are important to me. And that's just interesting to me. I really like to talk about that. Aliens, I like aliens a lot. I can do that with you later.

Sure. Another interview. Yeah, yeah. Mental health is important to me because of the reasons I explained. And then physical health is actually super important to me. You dealt with something. Yes, yes. So I was diagnosed with two diseases in my 20s. because of the reason I explained. And then physical health is actually super important to me. You dealt with something. Yes, yes.

So I was diagnosed with two diseases in my 20s, ulcerative colitis and ankylosing spondylitis, which are both autoimmune diseases. But I was undiagnosed for many years, which is super frustrating. Anybody who has some magical thing going on that's horrible to their body and nobody knows what it is, and you're seeing the doctors who are supposed to know, and they either don't know or they have crazy egos and they

pretend to know which is even worse yeah they're like oh that doctor you went and saw a bottle no wonder you didn't get an answer he's really stupid i could tell you what it is sciatica and i was having all these crazy back issues that came out of nowhere no point of injury didn't do anything it just suddenly I was just having extreme back pain in my SI joints, just unexplained back pain. Lots of morning stiffness, couldn't sleep at night. It was right when the band was just starting to break, so I couldn't perform. I was like, oh, great. I worked so hard for this my entire life, and now it's just going to fall apart. Finally, I went, after a couple years, to a rheumatologist, which I wish I had

done earlier. And I was diagnosed with ankylosing spondylitis, got treatment for it, changed my whole life. Now I'm able to do all the things I want, live a great, healthy, wonderful life. So that's my last thing that I'm really, really focused on right now, which is I'm part of this campaign called, if you go to monsterpainintheas.com, you can take a three minute quiz and find out relatively, if it's possible, it sounds like that you have AS, and then I'll refer you to a rheumatologist in your area. If I would have had that, it would have literally years of pain changed. So for me, I just, I really am frustrated that there's a disease that millions of people have and that millions of people probably have right now that's undiagnosed and they're just living with it and going to doctors

just like me who don't know what ankylosing spondylitis is i understand it's a mouthful but it's actually a pretty common disease yeah so we need to make it mainstream and this campaign so for people that maybe feel like they have something going on in their immunity or their system go to this place and take the quiz to see if this might be- You're having unexplained back pain, period. If you have unexplained back pain, go to Monster... It cannot serve you wrong to go to monsterpaintheas.com. Take a... Literally, it's like a two-minute quiz. It took me like two seconds to do. It's like, there's certain indicators that show, okay, this isn't like a point of back injury. This is actually more likely an autoimmune thing or an inflammatory thing.

And it'll tell you whether or not in the next steps of what to do. Yeah, and it'll find a rheumatologist for you right in your area. It's literally, it's just, I just wish I had it available to me. Yeah. Or if you hear a friend who says,

I always have this back pain, tell them to go to the doctor. Absolutely. And it manifests itself different in other people. Some people, it's in their neck. Some people, it's in their ankles. Some people, it's in their ankles. So if you have unexplained inflammatory pain in your body,

go there. Might as well. Takes a couple minutes. You said you moved out here roughly around 2009. Yeah. It's the end of 2009. I live back in Vegas now. I was here for a while.

Yes, yes. Back in Vegas, yeah. But you moved out here to kind of start your career in 2009. Is that fair to say? Yeah. So it's been a decade of you on the journey of pursuing this career, this dream, blowing up. Being where you're at now has been a decade. And we're about to start a new decade, 2020.

Right. It's the start of a new decade. It's perfect vision, 2020. Right. Okay. So based on the last decade of your life, with all the challenges, ups and downs, from the religious questioning, family, marriage, being a father, rock star, superstar, success, injury, all this stuff. Failure. Failure in mastering your health, to being the bad boy, to all these different things.

to being the bad boy, to all these different things. What was the greatest lesson you learned in the last decade moving into 2020 Perfect Vision new decade? Great question. I would say listening. I feel like we live, if there's anything I want to implement in the next decade of my life, it's just listening more

and actually having conversation that leads to progress. I think we live in a nation right now, especially that's so divided because people are just name calling. No one's listening. No one's taking time to actually say, this is what I think. Now, what do you think? Why do you think that? Let's actually really get into the nitty gritty of that. I just think that I wish there was just more listening.

I wish I listened more. I want to like be in a conversation with anybody at any time and give it a hundred. Like that's, I really am trying to make more of an effort to just be present, to, yeah. I say all this as I'm telling you. I'm like thinking in my head, I'm like, I really want to listen.

Let me tell you all the reasons you need to listen. That's great, man. This is a question I ask at the end called the three truths to everyone. So imagine it's your last day on earth many years from now. You get to live as old as you want to live, but eventually you've got to pass. And you've achieved every dream you can think of. You make all the arts you want to make, and you help all the people, and you do all the things.

And it all happens. But for whatever reason, you got to take all of your art, creative writing, videos, content you put out in the world with you. So no one has access to your words, music, this conversation, gone. Hypothetical question. But you get to leave behind a piece of paper and you get to write down three things you know to be true from your entire life. The three greatest lessons that you would leave behind for anyone to be remembered by you. And this is all they would have to remember you by.

Right. What would you say are those three truths or three lessons that you would want to share with the world? Jeez, that's heavy. It's a school of greatness, not a school of average. Woo, that's heavy. Well, first of all, I would try to be just short in my explanation because people, nobody's going to read this.

Yeah. I think the first thing I would say that's the obvious thing that was the quickest thing that I've learned in my life was love completely. Yeah, just love completely. Like everybody you meet, give them complete love, acceptance. And yeah, that would be one okay i think two would be love yourself yeah i think that sounds like it'd be covered in one but i think i'd reiterate it

in two because it just needs to be said i have had a really hard time coming to terms with myself loving myself i think that's really really important to love yourself and three do more of what makes you happy yeah I think it's easy to feel guilty because you need to do more

of you know I don't know I just think do more of what makes you happy like you just I know that sounds selfish to some people but it might make you

extremely happy to serve others right you know what I mean like that might make you super happy it makes you happy. I know that sounds selfish to some people, but it might make you extremely happy to serve others. You know what I mean? That might make you super happy. It makes me happy. I'm not saying I'm great at it, but it makes me happy. So do more of what makes you genuinely happy. Maybe I'd throw in

genuinely, because it's going to take you a little bit to learn actually what makes you happy. You might think it's just eating like Eggo McMuffins every day or whatever those are. Eggo McMuffins, that's how they do it. Eggo Muffins. Eggo Muffins. Eggo Muffins. Eggo Muffins. That sounds like a great product. Eggo Muffins. That's where I was lost. Sorry. But yeah, what genuinely makes you happy. Probably those three things. I love that, man. I want to acknowledge you, Dan, for a second for being a great listener, for showing up and listening to your audience, for being someone who is a humble servant.

You know, as much as you're off on the road and pursuing your passion, you're lifting so many people up. And you're able to share this type of message vulnerably when a lot of people in your position, I don't think, open up like this. It's going to help a lot of people in your position, I don't think, open up like this. It's going to help a lot of people. And I know you do this on stage and on tour. And you do events just speaking about this for communities that really need this. So I acknowledge you for your heart, your ability to listen to your own truth, yourself, and for spreading so much love to so many people. So I acknowledge you for that, man.

Appreciate it, man. Yeah, of course. Right back at you. You've got a great spirit about you. And I acknowledge you for that, man. Appreciate it, man. Yeah, of course. Right back at you. You've got a great spirit about you and I really appreciate it in my time here. How can we support you

in other ways? How can we follow you online? Where can we go and where do you like to hang out? Instagram the most? Yeah, you know, I do a little Instagram

and Twitter. I don't know, that's just Dan Reynolds, I think, for both. With your tours coming up. Yeah. We're going to be off the road for a little bit. Don't have to worry about that.

I feel like the world hasn't had enough of Madden Dragons for a little bit. You can take a break from that. You can go to LoveLoud, loveloudfest.com, if you want to look at the LGBTQ festival we put on every year. We've raised good money for great charities. Salt Lake? Is that Salt Lake? It's around Utah.

Sometimes we do Salt Lake, sometimes in like the southern utah area and uh monsterpainintheass.com if your back's hurting you like yeah i think just check it out check in on your your health and be good to yourself listen to this guy he sounds like he knows what he's doing got a good heart so love it man the last question is what's your definition of greatness? Definition of greatness. I'd say true humility. Like the people I respect the most and I'm like, that person is great. I think of like my dad. I think of people who just, and I say true humility because there's a lot of false humility and people like, oh.

But it's hard to find somebody who really just spends their whole life just making other people around them feel good. Yeah. Because they just, that's what they do. Yeah. And I look at those people and I'm like, that's a leader to me. Every time, like, yeah, that's it for me. That's it, man. Yeah.

Thanks, bro. Appreciate it. All right, man. Thank you, man. I hope you got some valuable insights from this episode with Dan. Such an inspiration, a wealth of knowledge from all of his experience. I mean, the guy has been through so many different challenges, so many different ups and downs, traveled the world.

He's been through it all, from nearly getting divorced, to having multiple kids, to having different phases in his life that were good, that were challenging, to, again, experiencing what it's like to be famous all over the world and to sing and perform in front of tens of thousands of people and so much more. The guy's been through a lot. He's got a lot of lessons. And if you enjoyed this, share it with one friend. Text someone today, lewishouse.com slash 890.

Share it on social media. Get the message out there. You can be a champion and a hero in someone's life by helping them improve their life with this interview. You never know who you're going to impact. You never know whose life could change from this wisdom. So make sure to share it and get the message out there. If this is your first time,

please subscribe over on Apple Podcasts and leave us a review. I'd love to hear from you of what you enjoyed about this, how we can make this podcast better, and any other types of suggestions or recommendations you have. Go to Apple Podcasts, click subscribe on the School of Greatness, and leave us a review so we can learn more about you and what you liked about this show. And leave us a review so we can learn more about you and what you like about this show. Also, shoot me a text with the word podcast over at 614-350-3960. I'm connecting with an intimate group of people who are texting me over there.

That's my community platform where I'm getting back to people one by one, doing my best. I get hundreds of messages a day there, but I'm sending micro audio messages of inspiration every single week. So if you want to get on my inspirational voice memo and text messaging platform, then again, text me the word podcast at 614-350-3960. A big thank you again to our sponsors today, LendingClub.com slash greatness. Again, you can check your rates in minutes and borrow up to $40,000 at LendingClub.com slash greatness. Make sure to check them out. They're the number one peer-to-peer lending platform with over $35 billion in loans issued. And also NetSuite.com slash greatness. Again,

you can get your free guide, the seven key strategies to grow your profits by going to netsuite.com slash greatness. That's N-E-T-S-U-I-T-E.com slash greatness. As Henry Moore said in the beginning, to be an artist is to believe in life. Well, in that case, anyone who believes in life is an artist. And this world is a beautiful canvas that you get to play and explore every single day and bring your art to life. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Share it with your friends. Subscribe over on Apple Podcast.

And as always, you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great Thank you.