The School of Greatness - 952 Glennon Doyle: Live Untamed and Unapologetic In Business and Life

Episode Date: May 11, 2020

“Be what you were before the world told you what to be.”QUESTIONSWhat’s the thing you are the least proud of and most proud of in your relationships? (10:02)What’s the biggest challenge with untaming things? (19:22)How do you reflect on attraction in your prior relationship? (24:13)When looking back, would you choose to forgive others faster if you could? (31:21)How do those with relationships that are good get to great? (39:38)What are your greatest hopes for your children? (45:37)What do you admire the most about yourself? (53:32)What advice would you give to any kind of family during quarantine? (1:01:01YOU WILL LEARNHow to undo the social programming and social conditioning of putting others’ needs before your own (6:31)How we give permissions to traits that have been traditionally gendered (19:31)How giving yourself permission helps others to give permission (30:12)How women with ambition have had to overcome fear (40:41)Why telling the truth about who we are is important (47:12)Why not letting hate into your life is powerful (50:19)How blended family quarantine is working for Glennon (55:06)LINKS MENTIONEDUntamedLove WarriorWalt WhitmanIf you enjoyed this episode, show notes and more at http://www.lewishowes.com/952 and follow at instagram.com/lewishowes

This is episode number 952 with number one New York Times best-selling author Glennon Doyle Welcome to the school of greatness My name is Lewis Howes a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur and each week We bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Ralph Waldo Emerson said, don't be pushed by your problems, be led by your dreams.

And Shonda Rhimes said, you can waste your lives drawing lines or you can live your life crossing them. I am so excited about this episode one because I met Glennon during a time of deep emotional challenge in my life where I revealed for the first time about being sexually abused as a young boy. And Glennon guided me in crossing over that line and revealing something that was really scary, that was really challenging to talk about, and something that I've been holding inside for 25 years. And she has a new book that is going to rock your socks.

Glennon Doyle is the author of the number one New York Times bestseller, Untamed, which is a Reese's Book Club selection, and Love Warrior, an Oprah's Book Club selection, as well as the New York Times bestseller, Carry On Warrior. She's an activist and thought leader, and Glennon is the founder and president of Together Rising, an all-women-led nonprofit organization that has revolutionized grassroots philanthropy, raising over $25 million for women, families,

and children in crisis. She lives in Florida with her wife and her three children. And in this episode, Glennon talks about her definition of motherhood and letting go of shame as mothers. When Glennon came out to the world about her love for her now wife and how she handled her divorce and raising her children during a book tour. We talk about truth, grace, and forgiveness in personal relationships and marriage, how this can be so challenging at times and how to do it.

We discussed the importance of collaboration over competition in your business. Glennon breaks down the definition of confidence and how you can truly embrace it in every area of your life, why it's not just important who you surround yourself with, but also what you surround yourself with to have true peace in your life. And she gives her top advice for families in quarantine right now. That and so much more. I am so excited for you to listen to this episode. If you feel moved and inspired in any way,

make sure to share this with one friend today. LewisHowes.com slash 952. Or you can just copy and paste the link over on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you're listening to this podcast and share it with a friend. You have the power to change someone's life. Make sure to share it if you think of anyone who you think could be useful in listening to this episode and make sure to tag Glennon as well over on Instagram and Twitter when you're posting this on social media. All right. I'm so excited about this. So without further ado, let's dive into this episode with the one, the only Glennon Doyle.

Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness podcast. We have the lovely Glennon Doyle in the house. I'm so grateful you're here. Thank you. Thrilled to be here. Well, to be here. I know I'm so bummed because I wanted to do this in person, but we, we had to postpone it. And then I was like, well,

I want to wait to do it in person. I don't want to do this, this video conferencing stuff. I want to see you. I want to give you a hug, which I don't even know if I'm allowed to hug anyone in the future. I saw something come out this morning and said, they're there. The person who's like the virus expert is saying that we should never shake I saw something come out this morning and said there there there's the person who's like the virus expert is saying that we should never shake hands again. And I'm just like, as an affectionate human being,

I don't understand that personally. You can't hug someone. You can't shake their hand. I don't know. No. And I feel like that's catastrophic thinking too, for me, I can't go there. I'm just, I can barely make it to dinner with these children right i am just one freaking hour at a time and then we'll deal with the after now the next life after this well you've had a crazy journey over the last lifetime but over the last four years specifically since i've seen you last and you've written a number of books we were talking about this beforehand that you said this is probably the last book you need to write.

I'm sure you'll write many more because you're too talented of a writer not to write more. But I was reading something that really blew me away when I was reading part of this. And I just want to read a couple of things to set the context. You said, mothers have been muttering themselves and their children's names since the beginning of time and we have been trained to prove our love by uh ceasing to exist proving our love by ceasing to exist i was like i started i started opening my mouth and just like highlighting this starting and was like, this is like something every mother needs to hear that line. And I watched my mom do this for 30 years and be in a marriage where she felt voiceless, where she felt unseen, unheard. And I eventually saw my father transform and go through his own

emotional intelligence training and start to change. But I think with the tools that they had, intelligence training and start to change. But I think with the tools that they had, there was very limited options for her or seeming limited options. And I feel like there's millions of women who probably have felt that way or feel that way right now. And you're saying we don't need to prove our love by ceasing to exist. No, because it's just such a terrible legacy to pass on, right? I mean, the reason that story is in the book is because i was in a bad marriage to a good man yeah um and that's a tricky place to be for a woman because we are really hard and you have kids you're you feel and we're supposed to be grateful for good enough i mean i had a good enough life i had a good marriage. I had the kind of marriage that women are trained to be grateful for, right? Which is what?

How is it good? Because, I mean, well, as you know from Love Warrior, there was a lot of infidelity that I didn't know about. But also, Craig is a fantastic father. Like, there's no kinder person. He's just wonderful in so many ways and and still in that marriage i was full of rage i didn't act like it on the outside but i was just this like low level river of rage all the time and i boiling up just like just right under the surface like a dormant volcano just ready to just like i'm fine i'm fine yeah um and i had this longing you know

for a deeper truer love that i couldn't let myself admit and And, and then, as you know, I met Abby and fell madly in love. And she was at a compliment. Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I almost didn't follow my heart with Abby because I was trained to believe that a good mother does not hurt her children. mother does not hurt her children. Right. So one day I was braiding my middle daughter's hair and I just looked at her and I thought, oh my God, I am staying in this marriage for her. But would I want this marriage for her? Oh, you wouldn't. If your daughter came to you 20 years later and said, this is what I'm going through, mom, you would ferociously say, do not do this. Get out. You're right. Hey, so I was, so I was, um, modeling bad love and calling that good mother. Right. Because I mean, really what this, what I'm Untamed is about is about figuring out these root beliefs

that are planted beneath us that control us and we don't even think about them, right? They're planted in us by culture. And for women, all of these root beliefs have to do one way or another with disappear, right? A good girl is quiet, pretty, submissive, accommodating, pleasing, right? A good wife is supportive, sacrificial. A good mother is a martyr, right? A good mother slowly, she just buries her feelings, her emotions, slowly she just buries her feelings her emotions her her ambition her dreams and does that in the name of her children right which is such an unbelievable burden for the children of mother mother of martyr mothers to bear because is it in the name of children or is in the name of appearances of what you're doing for your children, like your social circles? It's the name of showing that you're a good mother to other people.

I think a lot of what we show, I think a lot of things have to do for show. I don't think this is one of them. I think that the mothers I know, that the calling as a mother was to put everyone else's needs in front of mine. That that was the way that I proved my love. Where did you learn that? Well, from culture, right? Just it's social conditioning. You know, we are all born with these beautiful individual selves.

And then right around 10 years old, we start to formalize our social conditioning and our social programming. So very early, this is what, you know, your last book is about very early. You're told you're a boy. Here are the things that boys don't cry. Don't do this. Do this. Yeah. Right. So you, so that's your teaming, right? You start to lose your wild, start to lose who you're born to be. Don't tame me. Come on, Glennon. That's right.

And I mean, then we hit this certain time and we're thinking, why do I feel so caged? Like, why do I feel like I'm never being myself? I'm always acting. I'm always, what I say on the outside is different than what I feel on the inside. And that's because we're all being stuffed inside these little cages of gender of religion of sexuality of roles yeah right so and that's why you know when i looked at tish and figured that out i realized the role of a mother is not to be a martyr it's to be a model right our children will only allow only allow themselves to live as fully as we allow ourselves

of course so we have to refuse to settle for any relationship or any community or any nation less beautiful than the one we want for our babies i love what you said before this on the page before which i think is an exercise you should actually create an exercise somewhere online unless it's the end of this chapter i didn't see it but you said it's important to take a look at yourself every once in a while in the mirror. And you said you had a moment where you just sat in the mirror and looked at yourself. And I've had a few of those moments in my life where not where you're just putting, you know, cream on or your makeup or doing your hair, but actually just sitting and asking yourself the question, who am I? and is this the life I want to be living?

And do I respect the person I'm looking at in the mirror? I had this a couple times in the last seven years with myself and I was not happy with the person I was looking at or something was off in some area of my life. And you said you did that and we all need to make sure we look ourselves in the eyes and see if we're proud of who we are. I think that's something we should do every morning or even a quick moment.

I'm just like, am I proud of how I showed up today? Not needing to be perfect, but am I proud of, you know, my values and how I want to live in the world? And I think that's these three pages. Are there any lies there? Are there any lies? What are you, what are you hiding? Hide stuff from ourselves, man.

All the time. How long did you hide stuff from yourself oh it's like you know in the book I described it's like more than those snow globes you know we just like keep everything shaken up around ourselves like with busyness you know all the distractions that we use so we never have to like see that little immovable object in the middle of the snow globe that's what sobriety was for me it was just a settling of all the snow like there's no more flurry there's no more distractions and i'm just left with this like eye to eye yeah me and you just just us like no lies anymore yeah no and no you know no one's saying how good you are how amazing you are.

No, no book to put out and be like, Oh, you're doing great. You're an amazing mother. You're amazing. Right. You know,

all those things. Right. Cause all of that is just flurry. It is. Yeah. Right. All of that. What's the thing that you're most,

um, I would say the least proud of, uh, since being married and having kids, uh, with your first marriage and the thing you're most proud of uh since being married and having kids uh with your first marriage and the thing you're most proud of since ending it i was gonna say ashamed but i'm not saying you should be ashamed of anything but just think you're like but looking back you know what i'm just not proud that i did this this is so crazy because i am like the queen of revelation like

revealing things but i would say that i mean i think think there's ways that Abby and I kind of rushed the kids a little bit that I would do differently now. In what sense? How did you rush them? I think that we've had talks since then that maybe we were openly affectionate a little bit before they were ready. Like day one, you're like, Hey, we're hanging out. And now we're all, I mean, we weren't like that. We were actually very careful, very careful. Um,

but, and, and slow for what I thought. And yet my, and this is my middle daughter who tells us every single thing we've ever done wrong, like in our life constantly. She's a feedback daughter, you know, as was I. So I think maybe I would have done things a little bit slower there. I think the thing is, it's hard to contain love. It's hard to slow down appreciation, affection, you know, the feeling of, wow, this is a magic. It's hard to be like, Oh, let's contain our magic. Yeah, and especially when you're 42 and it's the first time you've ever been in love before.

I was like 12. Oh, my goodness. I was like a 12-year-old. I mean, I've never been in love before. Never. What's the difference between loving someone and being in love? Okay. First of all, I don't know. I still can't tell people like, okay, well,

were you like gay the whole time? Were you just, I don't know. Like, I don't know, but I do know that I always just matched myself with people that it made sense to match myself with. Okay. Here's a person that checks the things off on the list that I should want, that I should want. Not that you want, but that you should want. That I should want. That makes sense. Right. And that's just what I did in high school. It's what I did in college. It's what I did afterwards. And I never felt like a deep burning passion ever. Like the only deep burning passion love I ever had before Abby was for my children and for my activism. It's literally it. I mean, my family used to joke about they'd call me the ice queen because I just didn't have that like romantic.

I thought there was something wrong with me. I just didn't have that like romantic. I thought there was something wrong with me. Like I just, I used to say, Louis, you know, love is like a light.

And, um, some people are good at laser love and I'm more of like a floodlight. Oh, wow. When I fell in love with Abby, it was like, I was so excited about being in love, but I was so excited for myself because I thought that I was going to die

without ever having this experience. You hear other people talk about it. You see Disney movies with your kids show it, but then you're like, well, I guess I'll never have it. And I used to not even want to see it. Like I'd be, I was like one of those sour grapes people. Turn that kissing off. Yeah. Right. Yeah, right.

Like, so, and I think it's so fascinating, Louis, because one of the reasons why I trusted it, trusted the love that I felt, was because it was the first time I wanted Abby so much. And it was the first time I had wanted anything beyond what I had been conditioned to want. Right. And it was, and I loved her and it was the first time I had loved anyone beyond who I had been expected to love. Or what you thought you should love.

Yeah. And that's sometimes how you know that your true untamed self is coming out because the whole rest of the world is going no no no no no no is it is it good to be untamed all the time and be a wild wild beast just frolicking in the streets you know i'm untamed here in my love life and i'm untamed in my business and you know all my relationships in my family you know well i mean first of all i don't think anyone is all the time i mean i think the important thing is to define what untamed means. Okay.

Let's hear it. Untamed just means living an examined life, right? It means doing what Walt Whitman suggested, which is reexamining everything you've been taught in a book, in church, in school, in the world, and dismissing whatever insults your own soul. Right? So there's a hell of a lot of people that desperately need to untame from their religion yeah my wife is somebody who was taught very early that she was an abomination to god right she was raised in the catholic church and she has spent her entire life

feeling alienated from feeling uh angry with feeling left behind by god because that is who she that's what she was taught and it has taken me five years to convince her that she did not choose herself instead of god and church that she chose herself and God instead of church, right? Church and God are not at all the same. Yeah. Church is manmade. Right. So I'm taming yourself from religion and returning to the idea that you were,

that everyone was born with, that everyone is equally made up of the, of the divine. Right. Yes. I feel like everyone needs to do that. that everyone is equally made up of the divine, right? Yes, I feel like everyone needs to do that. And also the untaming from these gendered ideas. Right. That's what you've worked on for much of your career.

Yeah. Boys are so caged. Caged. Oh, my God. In our culture, like, we wonder why all these problems in the world, right? And one of the reasons for all the problems in the world is because we have raised men who express no emotion other than rage and anger, right? Who are completely invulnerable, who think they have to be certain in every scenario. Right. When? when their power is through conquering women and being completely narcissistic like our the way we have created little boys in terms of masculinity is going to take our planet down if we don't undo it it is taking our planet down i mean you know when i came out with masculine masculinity

a few years ago it was i didn't plan this but that was the height of me too. That was the height of all the Vegas shootings and all the racial marches and all these. And I was just like, the common denominator is everything bad that's happening is by angry men at this moment. You know, angry men or men in power that are expressing some type of masculinity that they think is okay. And I'm one to blame that's had these beliefs my entire life. I wasn't that extreme of killing people, but it was just like I would get angry. I would react. I would want to fight in situations as opposed to assess the situation and be a true man, which is a man of leadership, a man of vulnerability,

a man of calm and assessment first before just reaction mode. And I think that's, you know, something I had to learn the hard way many different times in my life that being this way gets you certain rewards, you know, needing to be right, needing to win at all costs, making yourself bigger, faster, stronger. There are certain benefits and rewards. Having sex with lots of women, there's certain benefits to going after that lifestyle. But there's also a lot of prices you get to pay in the journey of doing that as well. There's pain you cause in yourself, hurt you cause on others, relationships that suffer. And that's just part of the journey that I think we all need to learn how to

untame any type of role we've lived or any type of societal thing we've lived our lives so i feel there is a price to pay for it absolutely i do think we will get to the point years from now where we won't even say how how do you be a real woman or how do you be a real man? Like, I think that's going to sound so weird to us a decade old, because certainly we are starting to understand that personality characteristics or character traits are not gendered. Yeah. There is no like list of character traits that are male and list of character traits that are female.

There is only permission to express certain character traits, right? So women are just permitted to express gratitude and sweetness and deference and whatever. We have just as much rage and certainty and ambition and all the things, right? So soon we're just going to get our little babies and we're not going to say how do i turn this into a real man we're going to say how do i encourage this being to have the entire human experience yeah and be a leader of love and and learn multiple things in the world yeah you you're preaching to the choir for me this is is my, this is my jam. And, um, I'm curious what has been the biggest challenge for you then with your, your relationship and untaming things and stepping into, you know,

the person you've always wanted to be, the person who's always been there that you've never allowed to come out. Yeah. Good question. So the funny thing is, I mean, you know, Louis that I didn't announce my divorce and my love for Abby six weeks before my epic marriage loves my epic marriage story. Love Warrior came out, which was a book club pick. It was like the world as like a redemption story. I mean, it was unbelievable timing, right? I mean, I announced my, my wedding to Abby while I was on a nationwide church tour. So wait a minute.

The book was telling one thing and then you were saying to the world, the opposite. No, not at all. I've never ever been anything except unbelievably fiercely inclusive. I've been, I've been an LGBTQ activist for a decade and a half. I've been to more gay pride parades than Abby has. Not about that. I mean, about the love story.

Well, I mean, it's timing, right? As you know, it's so wild because these books, you finish them. Two years later, yeah. Two years later. You're a different person. You're a different human being. So how do you navigate that? How do you navigate that when the world is reading one thing that came out and then you're saying, well, actually, this isn't true anymore for me.

And here's what I've discovered. How do you sell a book that's not what you think anymore? Totally. And then go and speak. Well, this is actually going to my next book. That's what's the real truth. Yeah. Well, tragically for my agents and my entire publishing team of Love Warrior, I am the only rule that I have for myself in all things marriage, family, career, is related to my sobriety.

Okay. So my sobriety is the point from which all other good things come in my life. So if I don't, you know, keep my eye on sobriety, then I have nothing else. Everything falls. Right. So my rule for sobriety is that I will live in integrity, which for me does not mean doing the right thing. It just means that my inner self, my feelings and my desires and my experience will match my outer words and actions so that my outer self and my inner self will be integrated which is what integrity means so what i knew at that time was that it was wildly inconvenient for

the book but that i was going to go ahead and tell everybody the truth the whole time. Wow. Gosh. And Louis, I mean the meetings about this, like just, you know how this goes. I mean, I would be on calls to New York. There would be 17 people on these calls. They would be saying,

just wait six weeks. Just please. No way. No one's going to buy this book. If you know, they're going to. And I was like, I'm sorry.

Like, I don't, that's not my one thing yeah and this was two years ago and you guys took too long for me to put it out you signed a truth teller man like what can i tell you um so i mean how do you feel about how do you give yourself grace of you know we all learn and grow and evolve into different human beings. How do you give yourself grace from what you preached from the rooftops two years ago, five years ago, 10 years ago in whatever book or article that you wrote at times just saying,

you know what, it's okay. That's where I was at in my life now. And this is where I'm at now. How do you give yourself that grace and kind of like, oh, was I steering people in the wrong way or yeah no I never I thought of it more as a kind of culmination of everything that I'd been teaching as opposed to like a difference in everything that I'd been teaching yeah I mean Love Warrior was a book that was largely about me learning how to not abandon myself. Right. So I think like if you're not going to be somebody who's okay with living one story, one season of your life, writing about it, and then living another season of your life

and writing about it. That's cool. You just can't be a writer. Right. You have to stand by one thing that you've done is like, this is the truth forever. And there's nothing I hate more than that. Like, I feel like that's everything that's wrong. Like if, if you're a person who's like stuck in your beliefs and stuck in your place and sticking by it and not paying attention to to the evolution of being human. Like, I don't want anything to do with you anyway. So I'm completely, completely fine with living a decade of my life. I think of it as like, you know, Louis, when you go to the eye doctor and they like put

those little things on you and you can see more clearly each time. And they're like, one or two, one or two. Like that's me looking back at every decade of my life. I'm like, Oh, maybe a little clearer. I can tell what that part was about a little clearer. I can tell it. I mean, I just read this review on Amazon that made me laugh so hard. It was a review. It said,

all I could think of when I read Love Warrior was, girl, you're gay. And I was like, oh my God, oh my God, they knew it before I did. Well, I mean, let's talk about this for a second, because if you never like to make out with your husband and if you never, I don't know what your sex life was like, but I'm assuming it wasn't this passionate, romantic, you know, fairytale type of experience. And I'm not saying that's what love needs to look like either. But if you weren't fully attracted to your husband and he wasn't feeling fully desired by you or attracted, when you look back now and you know that he had a lot of infidelity, are you still, you know, feel like he should have just ended it

and not done that? Or he was doing the best he could do because he wasn't getting what he desired from his wife that was the person he loved? What do you, how do you reflect on that now? And yes. Yes. And all of it. And more. And I mean, I, you know, Craig and I are close, like he's one of my best friends and I have so much empathy for both of us. I mean, I, you know, Craig and I are close. Like he's one of my best friends and I have so much empathy for both of us. I mean, both of you, for both of us. I mean, we got married so young. I had been sober for maybe a hot second. Like he, I got pregnant and so we got married.

Yeah. You didn't know each other. We didn't know each other. And we got married because it was the right thing, not because we were the right ones. Right. And he did, you know what we did? We got married because we thought we were supposed to. And whenever you make a huge decision in your life, because you think you're supposed to, it's never ever going to be like the wild, true, beautiful decision you were supposed to make. Right. So, you know, I'm not one to be like the wild, true, beautiful decision you were supposed to make. Right. So,

you know, I'm not one to be like, well, he, I do think that we have learned that you don't abandon yourself like that. Like I should never have stayed in a relationship where I hated sex and he never stayed in a relationship where he needed to go elsewhere for it like that's what not abandoning yourself is right i mean i learned from it you know when i fell in love with abby we were only we were in a room together for 10 minutes and then we were we spoke on on a stage together for an hour that's all the time we spent together before we separated from each other never saw each other again and dismantled our entire lives to be together i don't know if you know that part and it's crazy we never touched i remember i read in the book how you like called each other and she was like are you sure you're

ready to do this yeah um so so i told craig the minute i knew yeah and that's how you looked at the mirror and you were like okay i feel like this is not true anymore. Yeah. Because I knew how it felt to like, well, I just remember thinking, I don't owe this man the rest of my life, but I do owe him my honesty when I know it. Snap. And that's one of the hardest things to do is to tell the truth and to be honest about how you truly feel in a relationship.

I can imagine if you've been together for a decade or more and you have kids, it's gotta be the scariest moment of your life. It was, I can only imagine. Yeah. And for him and he, the, I mean, he, we had been through so much Lewis. I mean, so much publicly, you know, intimately everything. Right. And we had been through the infidelity and we had fought to forgive each other for that. And I thought that I was doingidelity and we had fought to forgive each other for that. And I thought that I was doing all of that work with him so that we could

be happily ever after. But, but I was doing all that work with him so that we could separate and love and respect and not hate each other right now. No, because the way we are able to cope right now with Abby, we earned all that. Right.

You went through five, six, seven years of therapy and stress and tears and pain. Yeah. And it's so interesting because we don't tell each other things. We don't tell the truth in relationships because we think, oh, I'm going to hurt them. I'm going to hurt them.

But what I've learned is that there's no such thing as one-way liberation. When I finally stopped abandoning myself and I got the nerve to say the thing and set myself free, I also set Craig free. Now he's out there dating a woman who wants to make out with him. Exactly. And he was, he was abandoning himself the whole marriage. It sounds like, because if, if it wasn't working or if he wasn't getting what he wanted or whatever, that it sounds like, because if it wasn't working

or if he wasn't getting what he wanted or whatever, that it's like he wasn't being honest with himself or with you. You weren't being honest with yourself or with him. And you both were hurting. And the kids are essentially seeing a model, like you said, that is they're probably going to follow in some way, shape, or form in the future until you break it. That's right. follow in some way, shape, or form in the future until you break it. That's right. And I think one thing that women are told often is we think that we cannot, you will hear this all the time,

Lewis, like people will say it in response to this interview. Well, women can't just do what they want. We can't do what we want. That's selfish. We can't just do what we want. Like our people will hurt our people. We are told, we are brainwashed to believe that if we do what is true and beautiful for ourselves, that it will hurt our people. Right. It might hurt for people. Well, yeah, but like for women, especially like we, we are trained that what is good for us and what is good for our people are mutually exclusive. That is what women believe.

And I, if there's one thing that I've learned from this experience, it is that that is not true. When we allow ourselves to live as ourselves, right? When we give ourselves permission to exist fully, we automatically grant permission to everyone in our worlds to exist fully too.

Right. And that's what I mean by one way liberation. Like if you are a woman, you can continue to hide and you can continue to, to use our children as excuses, not to be brave with our lives. Right. Or we can demand to set our own selves free, to live fully. And our children will look at us and go, huh, I guess I have permission to do that. Yeah. It's like being in a high school dance

where everyone's just trying to look cool on the outside and just have their own conversation and pose up against the wall and talk with their, listen, man, you know, until one person decides to untame on the dance floor and say, hey, I'm going to let myself loose. You can look at me, you can laugh at me, but, I'm going to let myself loose. You can look at me. You can laugh at me.

But eventually you're going to be joining me and be grateful for this. That's what it's like. And I think the idea of untaming, it isn't – I think sometimes when people hear the words like tame, it makes them think of wild. And then when they think of wild, they think of, oh, to untame means to come in, to be just crazy and bold. And that's not what it means at all. To get back to your own wild just means to be the person that you were before the world told you who to be. Right. Yeah.

To be yourself. To be yourself. This is who you are. To be yourself. Right. It's not to get back to yourself. It's just to be who you've always been. Yeah.

Yeah. To be the self that's just hidden underneath all of these cultural expectations and um conditioning and all of that i mean i've got two little girls one of them is wild af like she's like you yeah and i've got this other one who's quiet and cautious like that is her wild right you have to shame her into being loud and whatever, like everyone else. Cause that's not who she is. So I think it's important to know, like our wild inside of us doesn't have to do with volume, right? It has to do with who we actually are. Yeah. Why, why is it so hard to forgive ourselves and other people. And if you could go back in the marriage or in divorce or any of these,

any of this time, and you could forgive yourself or other people faster, would you choose to do that? Okay. Well, I have some different thoughts about forgiveness. Sure. I just think our idea of forgiveness is kind of bullshit like okay i think we have this idea

that forgiveness is like um a linear process that we're just like doing we're like holding our breath somebody's done something to us and we're like holding our breath and we're just like waiting for the moment that forgiveness is like bestowed upon us from the sky and then we're gonna forever feel fine about that person right but that's not my experience with forgiveness i think forgiveness is circular right it's like walking a spiral staircase and we're still gonna run into our rage and our unforgiveness i forgive you i hate you i forgive you i'm mad at you like i find i think that craig and I are in a very evolved place. We respect each other deeply.

We get it. We forgive each other. And every once in a while, I still want to stab him. And I think that we will always have that. We will come back around to forgiveness. But I don't think it's linear. I don't think it's a check, done and done. I think it's a repetitive process over and over again.

And I will tell you this. I spent so much of my marriage angry. Like deeply. Give me a percentage. 50%. Wow. After the infidelity, yeah. I would be 80 to 85.

You were like, he's punished all day long. I mean, I tried not you know, I just, I think it came across daily as just cold. Well, you know how a person acts when they need to get their boundaries back. Right. But I think that what I learned, I kept raging. I kept internally raging. Like how could the repetitive loop in my head was, how could he abandon me like that? How could he abandon me like that? Until I figured out

that the actual question I should have been asking myself is why do I keep abandoning myself? Why, if, if I am trusting myself, if myself, if this anger inside of me is telling me over and over again, that I am not safe, why am I abandoning myself? Why are you staying in it to stay a parent or for the kids? I mean, we actually believe that it is kinder to keep people close and hate them. To set them free. To set them free so we can love them. Right?

free to set them free so we can love them right i realized my job was to forgive the husband of my children and i needed to do whatever it took to make that happen and what it took for me to be able to forgive the children of my husband was to divorce him wow when i the first time I remember feeling tender, safe, loving feelings for Craig was when I was in the elevator going downstairs after our divorce mediation. That was the first time. And I looked at him and I felt safe and I felt tender feelings and I felt forgiveness and I felt friendship. And that is because I had done what it took to make myself safe again, to restore my own boundaries. So what I'm saying is, first of all, I don't think forgiveness is a before and after. I think it's a process again and again forever. And I also don't think forgiveness is something that just falls from us to us from the sky. I think sometimes we have to forge forgiveness by restoring boundaries. Wow. How do we create those boundaries?

You ask yourself what you need, and then you don't tell yourself you're being dramatic, or you should be grateful, or you should, should, should, should. You say to yourself, what do I need to feel safe again? And then you do that shit. that shit yeah yeah i think uh what about the relationship here's a question for you i think like you know i'm still this uneducated human being that is always learning and asking questions so forgive me if i sound uneducated but uh sexuality is on a spectrum where uh you know it may not be fully, fully gay. You might be part gay. You might have tendencies, whatever.

Right. And excuse me if I mess up terminology. No, you don't have to be worried about that with me. I'm brand new to the gayness. I know that I'll speak for myself. I know that I love women and I'm sexually attracted to only women. But I also know that I love to put my arm around and be affectionate with a buddy of mine, a couple guy friends of mine. I like to hug people in general, but I would never, I shouldn't say never,

but I've never thought that I would ever cross the line and want to be sexual or kiss a man in any way, period. It's never crossed my mind as something I'm even curious to attempt. So that's just where I'm at. But there's probably some tendencies of like, well, but I'm affectionate and there's men that would never want to touch another man. So there's a spectrum there. There's also a spectrum of love that couples have for each other. And this is something that you said a few minutes ago about, I was in a good relationship or a good marriage. A bad marriage with a good man.

Yes, a bad marriage with a good man. What about the people who have good marriages with good partners? But it's not great. good marriages with good partners, but it's not great. It's a 78% marriage, not an 88 to 90%. And sometimes it drops down to 69, 68%, goes back up to 70. It's a good marriage with a good person, but it's still not everything that that person wants. It's still, I'm missing some, there's something a little bit that's missing. What are the people that have really good marriages, but it's not great? What are those people do? It's like having the great, good corporate job that's making you 250 grand a year, but

there's something that's like missing. Do they get out of that relationship? Is it, you know, a process of communication and therapy? What is it to get to the level that we truly want that it looks like, it sounds like you're experiencing right now. So I think that, I mean, first of all, the thing that I would say is like, this isn't a Cinderella story, except like a girl replaces the prince. Like it's not like i'm skipping around in daisies all day like marriage is still marriage and being human is still human and all the things like there's no disney shit here yes secondly um i think that one of the bravest things that

people can do is to even admit that discontent i think that it's good it's 80 of the way there we or or they won't even tell themselves that they won't even because i think that admitting that you have any discontent or longing for more means that you have to then do something about it like it's easier just to deny that longing because i think you're talking about and be grateful for what you have i mean and lewis you this wasn't part of your particular indoctrination but women are trained from the minute we're born to be scared to death and ashamed of wanting more the the original sin for women is to want right gosh that's think Eve. Like the first story I ever learned about being a woman and God is the chick who showed up on the earth, wanted more. And got punished. And the whole effing world fell apart.

Man, that's a tough pill to swallow. Right. And that story is told to women in every situation across the corporate world, across the family worlds. Do not want more. Smile and be grateful for what you have. And if you do ask for more, you will get all up. Why is that? Why is that? Because we live in a patriarchal culture. So of course women have to be scared to death to demand what they deserve. Because if we demanded what we deserved, power would be threatened, right?

So the clearest way we can get women to stay in their place is to have them terrified of wanting more. Wow. Like telling a story of the past. Yeah. Right. So, and it's the story of today. So that's why when you hear a woman be ambitious, look at, look at every woman who's ever run for political office. Oh, she's ambitious. She wants power. We won't have it. We will not have it. We will not have a woman who wants power. We hate her. We say things like this. I don't know what it is.

I just can't put my finger on it. She's just not likable, right? Yeah. I can put my finger on it. It's because we have been culturally conditioned to the more successful, the more successful, the more confident, the more confident and the more happy a man becomes, the more people like him. And study after study have proven that the more successful, the more confident, the more bold a woman becomes, the more people dislike and

mistrust her. That's not the case for me and my girlfriend. She goes after what she wants and she is passionate about it. I'm like, for once, I'm with someone who I feel like is a match, who has the same type of drive for her dreams. And that's the way that you react to her. But ask her if she thinks that the world ever thinks she's getting too big for her britches. Ask her how many times she's put in her place for being beautiful and strong and powerful, because there will be a difference in the way that the world reacts to her than the way that you react to her. Yeah, of course. Well, it's interesting you say that because I remember getting notified of an

interview I did on a podcast. It was like eight years ago. And something around like the title was like, I can't something around like the title was like i can't remember exactly what it said but something like lewis house's definition of like winning uh success is like winning at everything and this is pre like lewis on a journey of evolving and trying to like discover myself i remember I remember like reading the highlights from it where I was like, the whole mission of my life is to win at everything. And to be the, it was like to be the best.

That was before I went through a journey of talking about sexual abuse and discovering myself and healing and forgiveness and everything, which you were a huge part of my journey because I reached out to you and said, how do I share this with the world? I have no clue what I'm doing and I reached out to you and said, how do I share this with the world?

I have no clue what I'm doing and I'm terrified and you guided me. So thank you. I'll be forever grateful for your guidance on how to share my story. I guess it was seven years ago, six years ago now. And it's funny to look back and see like my mindset was just like, no, I have to be the best. I have to win. And if not, I'm worthless and no one's going to love me.

And I'm going to feel like a loser. All these things that I was taught and conditioned. But I felt like, man, this is not a good place to come from. It does not support me. It makes me feel so lonely. It makes me feel insecure. It makes me feel like I'm never going to be good enough. And now I come from such a place of collaboration.

And yeah, sure, I'm still competitive at certain things. But it's like, I want everyone to win. I want to promote everyone. I want everyone's voice to be heard. It's not only me. It's how can we all support and collaborate as opposed to be competitive and win. And it's, it's amazing when you shift that you can get so much more done when you try to collaborate as opposed to compete. And when you try to lift others up as opposed to win at everything, it's amazing what you can create. It's an amazing, much better. You can sleep at night. I've slept so good over the last five years.

It's crazy. Oh, I love that. It makes you feel so much less alone because doing anything like doing this work alone, forget it. You can just spend all of your minutes on earth just feeling like you have to earn your existence like i used to just feel like if i wasn't producing something like the day wasn't even worth i would just feel like complete crap about myself if you didn't write an article that didn't get shared by thousands of people and you know whatever

comments and views then i'm not enough right right right and that's so wonderful to have a team of people now that you can celebrate with it's everything's just about and at the end of the day it really is is just about community what what is your greatest hope for your children through witnessing the the the lifestyle that you had pre-Abby to the lifestyle you have now, do you feel worried that they were so conditioned to see one model and now they're learning a new model that may be, you know, unique in itself because there's, they're not seeing a lot of that in society, I guess, maybe,

but now they're seeing a new model with two women together in a different type of union. Yeah. What's your hope for them as they grow up and evolve? Well, I remember when I sat them down to tell them about the divorce. And later when I sat them down to talk to Abby, I remember I said, I have always told you that in this family, we tell the truth about who we are, even when it feels scary and even when it could disappoint other people. And I'm about to show you how that's done. And I told them, and what I want, I talked to my girls and chase a lot about the word confident. I'm not obsessed with the word brave because I feel like everybody on earth

has a different freaking idea of what brave is, right? Or just brave is like bleh. But I love the word confident because its Latin roots are con and fid, which means with fidelity, right? With loyalty. So confidence means loyalty to self. And I talk to the girls about,

and Chase about this all the time because what I want from them is that they live lives of confidence, meaning that they are willing to disappoint everybody else on earth so that they don't have to disappoint themselves. Oh, that is strong.

I want them to disappoint as many people as humanly necessary, including and especially me, especially their parents. Because I learned during my own untaming that it was easy for me to tell the entire world about Abby than it was for me to tell my mom. Okay? Like, you can think you're untamed until you have to call your parents. And you go back and you're certain.

Yes, Bobby. Yes, yes, daddy. Sorry, tell me what to do. How did your mom react to it? Well, this is interesting. So this is my situation with my mom during this time is when I became an adult. I had to pinpoint the moment I actually became an adult. It was during this time. Why do you say that?

Because I told my mom and she, my mom's my best friend. Okay. We talk four times a day. She was before this, huh? No, no, she is. And she was scared shitless. Okay. She was, she was worrying to death and calling that love. She was repeating and repeating all of these questions. What are the kids' parents going to say? How is the world going to react? She was so fearful. getting defensive and afraid and shaken because it's not the hate from the people. It's not like the rage from the people who hate us that shakes us from ourselves. It's the quiet concern from

those who love us, right? That shakes us. Wow. It's always it. And so I remember one day, Louis, my mom said to me on the phone, we're coming to visit. And I found myself saying, no, you can't come because you are afraid. And my children are not afraid. We've taught them that love in any form is to be celebrated and that it is best to be yourself and let the world catch up. So they don't carry the fear that you carry. But if I let you bring it to this house, they will see it in your eyes and they will help you carry it because they start to question.

They'll start to. So I said, I have to tell you this hard thing, mom, which is that your fear is not my family's problem. And it is my duty as their mother to make sure it never becomes their problem. So go figure out your problem.

And when you are ready to come to the island of my family with nothing but love and celebration and respect, we will lower the drawbridge for you, but not one second sooner. That's profound. Now, would you need your mom? What if your mom was like, well, I can just never accept this what if i'm just hypothetical i can never accept this but i can be neutral and still love you and i'm not gonna say i like it and it's okay in my beliefs but because that might shatter her or who knows i'm just saying for anyone else watching but if she said but i'll have a neutral stance and i won't make you wrong for it would you be is that something i don't know and all i can make you wrong for it. Would you be, is that something? I don't know. And all I can tell you is that I'm, I feel very lucky that that wasn't, isn't my,

what you just said. I know a lot of people here, but it sounds like a bunch of bullshit to me. Yeah. I will never understand. Like, I love you, but I disagree with you. Like, you know, like opinions are something you disagree with but people's families are not something you disagree with like you don't get to disagree with the love of my life like if you disagree with the love of my life that's great but you're sure as hell not coming to my house right so i'm glad that that situation has never arisen for me and maybe one of the reasons it hasn't arisen for me is because i would not have it well they just wouldn't be in your life in this way no what about abby's like i think that what people do is that they decide who gets to be in their life even if it's family even if it's parents even if it's and what we decided early

on was we were going to do something different we were going to decide what is not left in our life and homophobia was one of those things so no matter who brings it even if it's my mom you don't get to come no matter who's holding it on the other side of like our island drawbridge because that's negative energy yeah it's negative energy it's a lie like it's it's just like you're not going to bring your racism into my house right you're not going to bring your racism you're not going to bring your homophobia you're not going to bring lies into my house while i entertain it and try to make spaces for it no like i can't control the whole world, but this is my,

I'm not going to bring that shit into my house and let my kids see it. Then my kids look at me and think, Oh, I see in my, in our family, we make room for racism and homophobia. We try to make nobody uncomfortable. Right. We try to not say what needs to be said. Yeah. My mom, it's amazing, Louis, when you do stand in who you are and you do make your non-negotiables you create your boundaries yeah you do make your boundaries people come around they're either going to come around or they'll be alone and upset they come around or they don't come around anymore either way lovely yeah right because i think what we do is we go around

trying to convince everybody we're okay but the only way to convince other people that we're okay is to just go about being okay and let them witness it right i think in the end my mom was just really scared for me yeah and now she saw she she respects what I decided. She realized, oh my God, their family is as beautiful as she thinks it is, right? And now she likes, Abby is her favorite daughter now. She has two other daughters. She likes her more than you. What about Abby's parents? I haven't seen a lot about her.

Is she, her parents accepting of stuff? Are they out of the picture? Is it? No, no, no, no. Actually, we were just on an hour long Zoom call with her entire family because she has seven brothers and sisters and I don't know, something like 49 million. We have 49 million nieces and nephews. No. Abby's parents are lovely, wonderful, and very Catholic. So we, they love us as human beings i don't know if they will ever get to the point where the the real come to jesus discussion come to jesus it's a funny way to describe it the discussion about

like do what you really right i i don't know so if they're so they're lovely to you and lovely people but they're not fully accepting of this belief, is it okay to still have a relationship and have people in your lives who are? Well, part of that's Abby's decision. Gotcha. Right. Because every relationship is so different. And I, Abby, I'm a little bit more scary spice than Abby is.

She's much nicer than I am. It's black or white. Yeah. Right, right, right, right, right. So, um, like every family, we have different situations with everybody. Yeah. What's the thing that you admire about yourself in the last five years the most? Oh, I like that question. I admire that I have always so far till this minute, I don't know what will happen next hour, but I really have been able to honor you know, even when the next right thing has been, okay, that's great. But if you do that, your career is going to be over. I've been able to look at groups of people and say, okay, I guess my career will be over then. Yeah. That's been pretty fun and badass. And like, I've never, I have never had to abandon myself and I've been able to see over and over again that the fear that people bring to you is never true.

The only thing you really have to be afraid of is losing your integrity and losing yourself. The rest falls in line when you do. Yeah. That's beautiful. I love that. And what's the thing you admire the most about craig in the last five years i mean i guess his constant grace i mean he supports he's over here a lot right now because we're in blended family quarantine the whole thing but it's gotta not it's gotta not be easy even if it wasn't the right thing anymore to be together it's still got to be challenging for anyone man or woman to see someone with in an finally happy oh i couldn't make them happy she's finally happy

it's still got to be somewhat challenging to the ego or the heart or anything right absolutely and i'm sure it is and the fact that he shows up so relentlessly and still has such deep kindness. Wow. I think that's what I respect so much about him because you're right. It can't all, it can't be easy. I think that it's a little easier for Craig and I than it is for a lot of couples. And this is what I figured out. I think that there is like a very thin line between love and hate.

Like they're both passion, right? So it's like, who cares? Whether it's on this side this day or this side this day. Whether you are crazy about each other or hate each other, it's just the same thing. It's all just passion, right? So I think that's why it's so hard for a lot of couples who fall deeply in love and have deep passion

to divorce and co-parent because those things are so close right when my friends who can't be in the same room as their people they can't they can't even understand me in craig's situation because they can't be in the same room it's because they have deep passionate love that it's just a while to move over to the friend zone and i think craig and i were kind of never. We weren't kissing. You weren't having sex.

You were. So it's like you can have a fairytale marriage or a fairytale divorce, but maybe you can't have both. Yeah. And it's also, I mean, who knows? I dated a girl in high school who, you know, she's an amazing woman. And she ended up being in love with a woman. She dated another guy after me and then dated a woman for like 10 years.

And I remember being like, there's something, it's a different energy. I'll speak for myself. I don't want to speak for Craig or any other man, but it's a different energy, I think, where it's like, they're with another man and they're happy and they're with a woman. I don't know what the energy is, but it's a different energy i think where it's like they're with another man and they're happy and they're with a woman i don't know i don't know what the energy is but it's who knows if he'd be so kind and loving if he was like in a house with you and another man with his kids all day there might be some type of energy i don't know i remember this is what something that oprah said to me she was like well you know most guys have to feel like they weren't

man enough but at least cranking to say, I wasn't woman enough. There you go. Yeah. But also, Louis, for real, like, I think the energy, like, for me, watching Craig, he just had a very serious girlfriend who was wonderful. But I had, so I had to go through the pain of watching another woman with my children. Like he never had to watch another man with his children. It's different. I'm telling you,

like Abby is not, you know, that's not like watching another dad figure come in. Right. It's like, Oh, she a better mom than me. Is she the fun mom?

Is she the, this mom or she evil or whatever? Yeah. And she wasn't, she was wonderful. So she or is she evil or whatever yeah and she wasn't she was wonderful so that she's perfect i hate her perfect and wonderful and lovely and nice and she knew how to do perfect braids and the kids it was like i mean it was actually a wonderful experience for me because i really had to face all of the talk about making making yourself feel worthy like I had to be like will my kids still love me am I enough like I had to

go through all of that it's it's complicated man parenting no matter what family love all of it's complicated no matter what form you have even if you have the perfect marriage with the perfect partner and you're loving it it it's still gonna be hard. It's hard for everybody. Being a human being is challenging. You have another human being in your life all day long. That's more challenging, learning and growth. What's the thing you admire most about Abby?

Oh, Jesus. In the last five years. Abby is hands down the kindest person I know. She's the kindest person that everyone knows who's in her life. But I think one of the, one of the, what came to mind when you said this is that Abby, more than anyone I know, brings 100% of who she is to every scenario, every person, every moment. She is the most present. I would say she's the most generous with her being person that I've ever met. Meaning if you're in a room with her, she is giving you a hundred percent of who she is. And I don't even understand it. I mean, as a raging introvert,

like I'm usually not even in the room when I'm in the room. Like I'm usually not even in the room when I'm in the room. God. And she just has this ferocious presence that really comes across to me as just complete love, just generosity of spirit. She just makes every room. She makes everybody feel seen. She makes every room more fun and more alive. She's just, I don't know.

She's just magic to me. That's beautiful. I feel like I could get lost listening to you and learning from you for hours, but I want to ask you a couple of final questions. What advice do you give to people who are in, whether you're a blended, mixed, normal family, whatever you want to call it, any type of family with kids and challenges,

what advice do you give during quarantine of how to keep peace and love and boundaries in confinement? First of all, I just think that every parent on earth needs to lower their freaking expectations, right? Just be flexible. Oh, all this like, Oh, we'll just teach our kids Spanish during this time. We'll all learn Jiu Jitsu and we'll like all this freaking hustle and like, just no, we're, we're in a freaking global pandemic. Like let's lower our expectations. We are just trying to

survive, right? People are being asked to do impossible things right now. Like you cannot do your job homeschool your children deal with your own grief and their grief and everybody you can't nobody's nailing it nobody's nailing it we're all just trying to survive it don't mom shame yourself don't dad turn on the freaking tv and watch some disney plus all All day. If you need a reading lesson, just push mute and turn down the closed caption. There you go. Reading. Reading lesson, check.

Right? Just lower your expectations. And then I also think that a really, I think this is a hard time for families because, especially in my parenting generation, we were taught to fix everything. To not let our children feel any pain at all. You can't fix this. You can't fix it, right? These kids are in a place that we have never been in.

Like they have just lost the illusion we've tried to sell them, which is that we are in control and we can protect them from things. Poof, that's gone, right? This is a weird time for these kids. And they're going to have weird feelings and so are we. And I think we need to practice not fixing each other when our kids tell us that they're afraid when our kids tell us that they're angry when our spouses do we don't move to solution we just move to connection right we don't say here's how I'm going to fix this for you we just say I see you me too we

practice allowing everybody to have their pain. Yeah. I think that this is a good time to practice that since we can't fix anything anyway. I want to acknowledge you for a moment, Glennon, for being loyal to yourself and for expressing confidence with yourself and integrity with yourself and sharing all this with the world by first doing it yourself and practicing something that's very, very challenging and was probably one of the scariest things you've ever done. And I also want to acknowledge you for being a voice for so many people that need this message and for also being there for me when I needed to go through something really challenging and really scary for me to share with people. You were the person that got on the phone and guided me. I was clueless of what I was doing, terrified, so scared, and you gave me a sense of peace. You gave me a sense of everything's going to be okay.

It's going to be hard and scary and you're going to deal with lots of emotions, but you were really there for me in a big way. And I'll always be grateful for your time, your energy, your presence, your truth and your wisdom. So I'm just very grateful for you and the person that you are, the person you've become over the years, and for untaming yourself. And I want to make sure everyone gets this book because there's some stuff in here when I was going through it that dropped my jaw. So make sure you go check this out in a positive way, in a powerful way, that will support you in your life and give you more courage in your life

to be who you've always been, which it seems like you've gotten back to. So I want to make sure everyone gets this book. There's something I asked you the last time you came on, but I think that your truths might be different. I asked this to everyone at the end. It's called The Three Truths. It's a hypothetical question. I want you to imagine it's your last day on earth a couple hundred years from now, But one day you got to go. And you've accomplished every dream you could imagine. You have the most beautiful relationship, life. Kids have done everything.

You've done it all. Written all the books. Anything you want to do, you've done it. But for whatever reason, you've got to take all of your work with you to the next place. And so your writing, your books, your movies, your interviews, speeches, they're all to the next place. No one has access anymore. But you got a piece of paper and a pen to write down three things you need to be true about life. Three things you would leave behind to your friends, your family, your loved ones, and to the world. And this is all we would have are these three truths from you. What would you say are yours?

would have are these three truths from you what would you say are yours be still these are the three things i would tell my kids that's how i have to think about be still because i truly believe the only way we end up living the life we were meant to is if we practice not looking outside of ourselves but inside there's a guide in here. We can only get to in stillness. The second one would be feel all your feelings, not just the easy ones. Feel them all because feelings are alchemy that turn us into the next version of who we're supposed to be. And the third one would be imagine. I believe so strongly in the power of imagination. I think our imagination is not where we go to escape reality, but it's where we go to discover the deepest reality that we were meant to

birth. So be still, feel all your feelings and imagine. That is beautiful. One final question for you before I ask it, where can we support you besides getting the book how can we follow you online your website where can we go there's no book tour right now so how can we see go to um glenn and doyle on instagram and then go to together rising together rising is my non-profit which really my baby. We've raised $25 million for women and children in need all over the globe. All grassroots. The most frequent donation is $25. So this is just

a completely grassroots revolutionary activism crew. So come to together rising, come to Glenn and Doyle, mostly on Instagram. I'm on Twitter, but I don't understand Twitter. I suck at it. Instagram is great. You show a lot of your life. You show a lot of the stuff you're doing behind the scenes. So make sure to check it out there. I love what you're doing there. Glennon, you're amazing. My final question for you is what is your definition of greatness? Of greatness. To thine own self be true. You're the best. Glennon, I can't wait to hopefully hug you in the future if we're allowed to.

We will, we will. High fives, shake hands, all that stuff. So thank you for all your time. I really appreciate it. Thank you, Lewis. Bye. I hope you enjoyed this episode. I hope you feel more loved, more inspired,

and more empowered to take on your life with fuller clarity and purpose moving forward. If you did enjoy this, make sure to share this on social media and tag me at Lewis Howes and tag Glennon Doyle as well. And share this with one friend, text a friend, message a friend on WhatsApp, group message, Facebook Messenger, wherever you can. You have the power to transform and change someone's life today. All you got to do is share this message of inspiration and greatness with a friend. And if this is your first time here and someone sent you here to listen to this, then please subscribe over on Apple Podcast and leave us a review and make sure to pay this

forward. Share this with one other friend you think might be inspired and text the friend back who messaged you this link and say, hey, thank you. Here's what I learned. Here's what I got out of this. And here's how I'm going to apply this today in my life. Make sure to check out all of Glennon Doyle's information. You can go to the show notes, lewishouse.com slash 952 to check out all of her info, where to get her book, how to follow her on social media, and all that good stuff as well. And Ralph Waldo Emerson said, Don't be pushed by your problems, be led by your dreams.

For me, that really means don't be consumed in the mess of what's not working. Focus on the vision and the clarity of what you want to get out of and create in your life with those dreams that you do have. And Shonda Rhimes said, You can waste your lives drawing lines, or you can live your life with those dreams that you do have. And Shonda Rhimes said, you can waste your lives drawing lines or you can live your life crossing them. What are the lines you need to cross over into to become something greater to achieve what you want?

Start thinking about those lines. Don't stay behind them. Don't draw them. Go over them. Never again will you fall back behind the line. You'll always be moving forward. If someone hasn't told you lately, I love you so very much. I'm so grateful fall back behind the line. You'll always be moving forward. If someone hasn't told you lately, I love you so very much. I'm so grateful for you to be here. Appreciate you.

And as always, you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.