The School of Greatness - 98 The Shocking Truth About Spirituality, Religion and Faith (and why we should care) with Krista Tippett

Episode Date: October 10, 2014

"The things that go wrong for you have a lot of potential to become part of your gift to the world." - Krista Tippett For show notes and to learn more about Krista Tippett, visit us at lewishowes.com/98

This is episode number 98 with Krista Tippett. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Welcome everyone to the podcast.

Thank you so much for joining me today. I've got a very special guest on. Her name is Krista Tippett, and she is the host and executive producer of the show On Being. Now, if you haven't heard about this show, it's one of the top shows on iTunes as a podcast. It's usually in the top 50, if not in the top 30, ranking on iTunes consistently, and it's an incredible show. Now, Krista is a Peabody Award-winning broadcaster and New York Times bestselling author. In 2014, she received the National Humanities Medal at the White House

for thoughtfully delving into the mysteries of human existence on the air and in print. She avoids easy answers, embracing complexity, and inviting people of all faiths, no faith, and inviting people of all faiths, no faith, and every background to join the conversation. In this interview, we talk about things that I've never talked about on the School of Greatness podcast. And I ask her a lot of questions that I have for myself about faith and human potential and experiences, and we dive into a lot. So I'm very excited for you guys to listen, to dive in, and to join the conversation. So please make sure to go check out On Being, the podcast,

and go check out all the show notes that we talk about over at lewishouse.com slash 98. So without further ado, let's go ahead and dive in with Krista Tippett. Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness podcast. I'm very excited about the wonderful woman that I have on today, Ms. Krista Tippett. What's going on, Krista? Oh, not much. It's a beautiful early fall day here in Minnesota and we're in production as usual and I'm happy to talk to you here in the middle of my work day. Very cool. You know, we just talked a little bit before. I'm in LA right now, so I really miss the Midwest. I'm from Ohio. During the fall, it's the best time of the year. It's lovely. Yeah. I can only imagine what the trees look like right now. Yeah. And you know, the light is good in Minnesota. People talk about the snow,

but it's actually very sunny here. That's very good. It will get pretty cold though. I lived there for a while and it's miserable in the winter, so I'm not jealous. Okay. But there's some of the nicest people in the world are from Minnesota. So, um, very cool. but there's some of the nicest people in the world are from Minnesota. So very cool. Well, I first learned about you, Krista, from a friend of mine in Alabama. I was training with the USA national team down in Alabama in January this year. And my friend said, you know, I really love your show. And I said, what are other podcasts you listen to? What do you really like? And she said, there's a show I really love called On Being. And that was the first time I heard about you. And I said, what is this On Being? And why is

it so interesting? And how come you like it more than my show? I was really interested. And since learning about you and connecting with you and listening to some episodes, I can see why she loved it and so many people love it around the world. And I just want to dive in and ask you really why. Originally, it started off as a different show. Isn't that correct? Yes. I mean, it started off as a show called Speaking of Faith. I mean, I think it evolved into what it is now.

It's not like it was one show and then it was another. It's kind of like this is what Speaking of Faith became. And I think that that also reflects how in this same decade, our whole cultural encounter with the spiritual, moral, religious part of life has been evolving. That makes sense. Yeah. I want to dive into religion and faith with you in a second because I think it's fascinating to just discuss about it. But tell me about how you originally were going to launch this show. I think I read somewhere that you were going to get funding for the show on September 11th.

Is that correct? Yeah. I think it was 10.30 a.m. on September 11th. I was supposed to have a meeting at the Pew Charitable Trust. And they did end up being one of the first major funders of the project. But, you know, on that day, I was going there as much as anything else to put forth this argument that religion was a force in the world and that it deserved to be treated with an expansiveness and intelligence and imagination that I found to be missing in media at that time, even in public media. The meeting was canceled, but I think, you know, in a very tragic way, I didn't have to make that argument anymore that religion mattered. Although

at that point, then the argument became, well, religion is behind all the worst problems in the world. But what I would say to that is, well, if that's true, all the more reason that we have to find all kinds of new ways to grapple with this and speak about it together. Now, it's interesting you mention that because I grew up in a religion called Christian science. I don't know if you've ever heard of Christian scientists. Yeah, of course. And the more I was very confused learning as I was growing

up just because I was coming into my body. I had these physical sensations and it talked about, you know, that we're all spiritual ideas. And so I was just always conflicted of like what I felt was reality versus what the religion and other religions teach. And, you know, you mentioned that, that, uh, religion is a major cause of, uh, a lot of the major problems in the world. Probably would you argue that, would you agree that it's the number one cause for the wars that are created as well? No, I would not. I mean, you know, I think you could make the same sweeping statement about politics, you know, somehow politics is at the source of all the worst problems in the world. These are all tools in the hands of human beings and we are flawed. You know, religion is a particularly revealing canvas for the whole sweep of the human condition,

which includes a lot of darkness as well as a lot of beauty and possibility. And so when we pour our aspirations into our religious identities, you know, whether positive or negative, they really get amplified. And there's a real power to throwing ourselves around in those containers. Interesting. So you were raised in a specific religion, and then you've now transitioned to a different religion. Is that right? Yeah. I mean, I was raised Southern Baptist. I grew up in a small town in Oklahoma and I was raised maybe like you, you know, it was a tradition that really defined the culture of my childhood as much as a place that you went to once a week. Um, and then I went away to college on the East coast and, and that whole culture fell away. And I spent about 10 years, just,

I think like a lot of people, it just, that tradition of my childhood didn't seem very relevant to life or to this large world I was discovering. I, you know, I did come back to a different, well, I came back to an interest in religion in human life writ large and in the world that led me eventually to be doing this work I'm doing. And I did also come back to a, I mean, I have my own spiritual sensibility that keeps changing as I change, you know, it's really not, it's not static at all. But there's a personal experience I have is not to be confused or like strictly identified with the work I do in the show, which I also do as a journalist and, you know, as a, as a citizen

and as a person who, who loves questions. Yeah. Yeah. You have great questions. What do you think is the difference between religion and spirituality then? Well, I've had a lot of different answers to that question over the years. I actually think they are often more entwined and inseparable than we think they are. Although in the course of a single life, there may be all kinds of different ways we put those things together. essence, the core truths, the animating impulses, and I think also the animating questions and longings that actually gave rise to our traditions, you know, those questions of meaning and purpose and moral imagination. But I, you know, I also want to say, I think it's absolutely possible to have a spiritual life in the absence of any kind of religion or any kind of belief in God. And I think many people do. However, our religious traditions are these containers, you know, and they carry all of these questions and these longings that have developed, you know, great bodies of thought around them that have developed rituals and practices of community and vocabularies and virtues. And I think that often when people go on a spiritual search, you know, even if they maybe don't come back to some strong identity, they do end up picking up some of these things again. Right.

So, as I say, I do think there's a symbiotic relationship. How many religions are there in the world, do you know? Oh, my gosh. I don't know. I don't know. Endless. I really do think that. Thousands?

Well, I think that this thing, whether you call it faith or religion or spirituality, I really think it happens one life at a time. And there are as many variations on this as there are of us. I really think that's the way it works. I mean, isn't there really one energy, one God? So why do there need to be thousands of religions? So I don't know the answer to that question. It may be true, but if it is true, I still think that the need this variety of words and text, you know, and creative, you know, arts and images and practices and virtues. I mean, I come back to

these things with rituals. I think we may need all of these ways that we've developed as human beings to reach towards that thing, that presence, whatever it is, to even, you know, to begin to be able to take that seriously. So what is the religion that you're practicing now? Well, I guess I say I'm Episcopalian now, although I'm not an especially active Episcopalian at the moment. But what's that mean, not active? Does that mean not believing you? Does it mean not going to church?

Well, it means right now I don't go to church. Or, yeah, I suspect that I will go to church again. I mean, to me, the church part of it is about community. And I think I will want that. But in this, I think I'm just like so many other people. On the other hand, I, you know, something I end up talking about in my interviews a lot is how we're living in this historic moment where we're really reinventing every institution, every discipline, you know, we're reinventing medicine and we're going to

be reinventing education and we're reinventing the economy. And likewise, religious institutions, the way they've come into the 21st century, really don't make a lot of sense. I mean, really, even just the basic structures and forms. And there are all kinds of profound ways we could talk about them not making sense, but it's also things like, you know, where is it in the Bible that church is at 10 a.m. on Sunday morning, you know, which actually just doesn't fit in a lot of our lives. So I think I'm caught in this kind of flux, just like everybody else. So would you say you take more the inspired word of the Bible or the literal word? You know, I don't think anybody's asked me that question, or at least that way for a while. I would say a couple things. I take language

really seriously. I take text seriously, and the power of words, and also the power of stories. And, you know, in that sense, I have a reverence for sacred text and what it, again, has carried forward in time, what it works in us, I think that in modernity, you know, this whole idea of literal reading of the Bible is pretty new, right? So even the church fathers, if you just look at Christianity, the church fathers, you know, in the fourth century, who kind of solidified a lot of the things we think of as doctrine now, had, you know, they were much more concerned about reading the text in terms of the way the text was written. No, Genesis 1 was not written as a scientific textbook. Genesis 1 was not written to answer the question, the scientific question of how the world came to be. It was answering

different questions. So, you know, I would say I take the text very seriously. You might even say, you know, in some ways kind of in an orthodox way, but it's not for me at all the same thing as taking it literally. A lot of sacred text is poetry, you know, and there's a different thing. Truth is told differently in a piece of prose and in a piece of poetry. It's still truth. And a lot of the truth that's in the Bible and that's in other sacred texts is more like poetry than it is like an opinion piece in the New York Times. Right. But we tend to argue about it like it's an opinion piece in the New York Times.

Well, what would you say to someone who has the question, how do we know what's written in the Bible is actually what was said then? Or how come it's not someone that's just made it up, a group of people that just made it up to create some type of rules or structure for humanity? How do we know that's actually what was said over the thousands of years of it being translated and that we should take it so seriously. You know, when I get a conversation, when someone tells me something about what happened in their day and I tell someone else, it's already changed from my ears to another person. So how are we supposed to have the faith that it's the truth? Well, again, I think there's something about, so, you know, as I said, I was a non-religious person for a while. I was a very political person. I was living in divided Berlin and I was working on these great big world geopolitical issues.

And I didn't think religion was very interesting or important. Then I went to, as I got interested in religion again, I went to study theology because I had to know that it could actually be as complicated and interesting and relevant as this world I had experienced. And I actually found that it was. I mean, theology is this fabulous repository of human thinking about hard, huge questions. about hard, huge questions. And, you know, one thing you start to learn when you become theologically educated is to read, let's say you're asking about the Bible, I mean, to read that in the spirit in which it was crafted, again, to look at the questions it was answering. And it's very rarely telling a story like, you know, like this is the truth or this is

what happened, right? It's very rarely that kind of historical account or that's not the most important point that's being made. I mean, one thing, though, just to pull the lens back is I would just say I have some respect for any text that has survived, right? With some authority and, you know, and kind of been reborn to new generations for thousands and thousands of years. So, I mean, that's one place I would start by saying, I don't know if this is true or how it's true, but I'm going to look at this, right? I'm going to figure out what it is speaking to in human lives. With all the studies you've done on this and all the interviews you've done over the years, is there a common theme between every religion you've studied about that they all have something

in common? That's a great question. And I actually don't, that's not a question I focus on very much. As I said, you know, my feeling is even if we're talking about one great big unity, I think we probably need all of our words and all of our ways of grappling with that to point at it. So I never start with similarities or things we have in common, but there is something kind of magical that happens. I mean, I talk to people out of the depths of their traditions and their knowledge. And then there is a magical thing that happens, talking to people out of their depths, where you just start to hear these echoes, right? You know, these really wonderful echoes, and you really feel like you've walked into the realm of mystery when it comes up

that way. I, and I, the words I would point at are not the words that I would have even thought of maybe 10 years ago. I think beauty is one. I think a reverence for beauty and beauty as a, as a moral value, you know, beauty as a litmus test and not just, uh, not just aesthetic beauty, um, that too, but, you know, beautiful lives, which are often quiet lives and not necessarily famous lives, right? Not necessarily the lives that are good at self-promotion and getting up. There's a, there's a reverence for mystery and surprise and the limitations of our knowledge, which is actually very liberating. You know, I think if you really take that in a sense of mystery and kind of embrace it and don't take delight in it, which, you know,

by the way, I think scientists do as well as theologians, then life becomes a discovery. And there's also a kind of, there's a humility that rises in you that comes to define you, but also an adventurousness. And you know, that to me, I mean, a religious life at its best has those qualities. Those are some of the things that come to mind. What's the biggest discovery those are some of the things that come to mind what's the biggest discovery you found about yourself over the last 10 plus years of doing this work you really are you're really asking all the hard questions well didn't you say you like asking those type of questions yourself um okay say that again what's the biggest discovery uh-huh you've learned about yourself over the last 10 years of this this journey of uh this show well 10 plus years i should say yeah i

mean it's hard to separate the discoveries in the show with just the discoveries of living right sure well let's say over the last i'm in my early 50s now and i was in my early 40s when i started so you already had a lot of experience yeah and um you know i've raised two children yeah i've gotten a divorce i've just started a new company you know i mean like there are all these things that happen um that have flowed into my discovery of myself but i think that what this life of conversation that I've had about these subjects, I mean, I don't know, this may surprise you, but I mean, I think the most important thing that's come from having these conversations while I'm living these

things is understanding that what is hard and what makes me feel fragile and where things are failing or threatened to fail, to kind of to let that be, to not clamp down or insist on any kind of perfection, which actually just limits your possibilities. I mean, here's the thing. I've interviewed so many wise people. And what I've learned from wise people is that the things that go wrong for you have a lot of potential to become like part of where you grow and part of your gift to the world, actually. And we spend a lot of time in this culture, like hiding what's not perfect, right? We never wear these things on our sleeve and we don't want to talk about them when we write them out of our CVs. And, you know, I've done that too, but kind of giving into the strangeness of life and letting that be defining, you know, there are words that are in our traditions that are really not in American culture, like surrender and lamentation and vulnerability. And those are all part. I mean,

I'm going to use your word, right? Greatness does not come without some frank standing with those things and understanding them to be part of you, right? Not just forcing your way through it, but letting it form you as you walk through it and understanding that, you know, from that point forward, these two are part of your wholeness. Yeah, I definitely would agree to that point. Over the last couple of years, you know, I'm 31. And in my 20s, I thought I had it all figured out when really my ego was in the way. And as I started to go through some emotional transitions and some roller coaster transitions, I started to do the work on myself and open up in a vulnerable way. And even through this show, I started opening up vulnerably and sharing things that I had never

shared with anyone my entire life, that experience that I had as a child and things like that. What I realized is when I actually opened up and surrendered to my life and everything that's happened and that I've created, you know, good or seemingly bad, what I created was a space of connection and compassion with everyone else who was involved in the conversation. And I know you talk about, I mean, your TED Talk was on compassion. Yeah. And let's just go into that.

What does it mean in terms of compassion? What does it actually mean to you? You know, well, as I said in the TED Talk, I struggle with the word because we put a lot of these words up on pedestals. I mean, love is another one. They're just kind of ruined. Love, compassion, forgiveness, peace, justice. What do you mean ruined? They're not as sacred anymore?

They're not as, they don't have the intention? Oh, we overuse them. We put them on Walmart cards, you know, we, I mean, love, we just totally turn into this romantic sexual thing and, and don't think, talk about it as really this, you know, this complex experience of life that has all these manifestations, you know, takes all these forms and compassion. I think we associate with heroes with somebody like Nelson Mandela, you know, or the Dalai Lama. Right.

And, you know, I've met, I've interviewed the Dalai Lama and I've interviewed Desmond Tutu. And the thing is, even those people just really touching back on what you just said. I mean, they, compassion is, is learned and gained and accumulated through what goes wrong for you, for everybody, for those people as well. So I like to break down a big virtue like that into component parts and more kind of, you know, everyday practices that we can all immediately aspire to, like, you know, things in moments, you know, kindness. That's also a Hallmark card. So that's also a dangerous card. kindness. That's also a Hallmark card. So that's also a dangerous word. But, you know, let's just think about kindness. I mean, kindness is actually one of these few things that any of us can do, just some moment of kindness to a stranger or to someone we love that can be just instantaneously

transformative, right? You know, it can make your day, It can make their day. You couldn't write a grant report about the long-term outcomes, you know, but you can think about those moments and they change something in time. is the word for compassion in both Hebrew and in Arabic is related to the word for womb. It is essentially about seeing, not just seeing and not just intellectually understanding, but understanding, intuiting, feeling someone else's well-being as intricately linked to our own. My resilience is linked to your resilience. My vulnerability is linked to our own. You know, my resilience is linked to your resilience. My vulnerability is linked to your vulnerability. It's a big radical move that human beings have been able to make. And it makes us, I think it makes us human. But it needs cultivation. It's again, you know, when I think the problem is we put it up on a pedestal and we say, well, it's the Dalai Lama who's like that. And we don't realize that we grow in compassion. And this is the great things we're learning in

neuroscience now about how we can actually really form our character, just like you can form yourself as an athlete by practicing, right? You can form your character and something like compassion and the little things that make you compassionate, you just start and you just practice it and then it does become instinctive. give it away first. If I want love, I give love to everyone else or give love to the person that I want to create that experience with. If I want people to be kind to me, then I get to be kind in every moment that I can. I get to smile and look people in the eyes and say something nice. I get to open the door for people. I get to do kindness. I get to be that. And whatever I want, I've got to give it away first. And I think that's interesting that you're talking about that. And, you know, whatever I want, I've got to give it away first. And I think that's interesting that you're talking about that. I also think I once had a conversation with Walter Brueggemann,

who's a great, he's really probably the greatest living scholar of the prophets that, you know, this wonderful tradition of the prophets in the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament. And I mentioned to him this fact that the word for compassion is linked to the word for womb. And he said, yes. And isn't that appropriate? Because it's so uncomfortable, which I said, well, I know better than you do about that. And but the point is also not to romanticize it. Right. It's I mean, it's actually often not uncomfortable. It's often just, it's delight, you know, being kind. As you said, giving things away turns out to be, for some reason, it's not instinctive always, but it turns out to be a great experience often. But it's also just,

it can just be gritty and it can just be practical. It can just be pragmatic. Yeah. That's interesting. When you talk about compassion, meaning womb, you mean compassion is supposed to be uncomfortable based on its meaning? Well, I think he just meant that, you know, you could look at that image and say, oh, isn't that beautiful? That the Hebrew and Arabic words are linked to compassion. Motherhood, right? But in fact, you know, giving birth is the most amazing, wonderful wonderful and also one of the most painful experiences of human life so you you know i just i'm so committed to seeing to talking about

spirituality and religion in reality-based terms um and three-dimensionally do you think we can be happy without experiencing pain well it's such a hypothetical question. I mean, we will experience pain, right? Yeah. I remember talking once to Thich Nhat Hanh. Do you know who he is? He's an amazing, he's a Vietnamese Buddhist monk. And he was, he came out of the Vietnam War.

He's really just one of the wisest people alive today. And he said to me, this Buddhist, Tibetan Buddhist, Zen Buddhist monk, that he wouldn't want to live, that he wouldn't want to go to heaven without a place without suffering. Because he does not believe that compassion would exist in a place without suffering. Interesting. It's always our teacher, right? It is, yeah. How do we grow if it's just all puppies and hugs? So gosh, that's just this huge puzzle of the cosmos.

And if you start thinking about God, I talk to a lot of scientists and physicists who are not religious, but who are working at things like free will, this puzzle of us. And I just choose to kind of find it fascinating. What do you think happens when we die? I have no idea. I have no, I'm actually not that interested. I mean, you know, I'm very, I mean, I grew up Southern Baptist where there was so much emphasis on what would happen when we died.

And it so was supposed to be determinative of what we did when we lived. And I don't think that's a legitimate connection. Well, if you're not that interested, you don't have to answer it. I'm just curious based on your experience. The image I work with actually comes from science, from Einstein, who said that, you know, he really broke open our understanding of time. And he said that our human sense of past, present, and future as this linear thing, you know, this arrow that's always moving one direction is a stubbornly persistent illusion. And so, so, so his understanding of time, which I, which I believe is the reality of time is not actually something though, that our five senses can apprehend. So we're stuck with these bodies that tell us one thing and this, you know, that this is how we make sense of time as linear.

Right. But his understanding, and I don't really understand this, so it's a little bit presumptuous of me to explain it, but what I've internalized is that essentially it's kind of all happening at once. What time? Yeah. Mm-hmm. So, but his sense was, or his, no, his understanding was that we make an imprint, okay? So every, our lives are in their fullness make an imprint in reality, in this thing we call time.

And it's still there after we're gone, even if we are not there in the physical sense. Even if we are not there in the physical sense. And I love learning things like that because it's so kind of interestingly resonant with my grandfather's view of heaven, right? It's a different view, but I like the mystery of this and I just don't think we can know. That's interesting. And I just don't think we can know. That's interesting. You know, my father was a very extreme Christian scientist. And there's still lots of questions I have about religion. By no means would I say I'm well-educated on the topic or know even about the religion I grew up in that well.

But he did some great things for my mindset, I would say. He never wore a watch. And he never allowed us children, I have three older siblings, to celebrate our birthdays. And as a child, you know, whenever all my other friends were having birthdays, you know, as a child, I was like, this sucks. You were persecuted. I was like, I can't, you know, have a party.

You know, I never had a birthday party. And maybe when I was like three or four, they like celebrated or something. But after I was like five, like there was never a cake. You know, my mom would try to like, you know, bring me some stuff every now and then and like say happy birthday. My siblings would be like happy birthday, but it was never like a celebration. And it was confusing for me because I was like, why? When all my other friends have these parties that I would go to and then I didn't have anything. And growing up, I was really confused, but I kind of appreciate it because later he told me, I never wanted you to be limited by your age and by time. That's so interesting.

I never wanted you to put those limitations on yourself where the majority of the world does. If you're too young, you can't world does. If you're too young, you can't do this. If you're too old, you can't do this. You know, people,

there's so many limitations and I really valued, he was always, you know, even though he never had a watch, he was always on time and he was, it was word and he was, you know, great at those things,

but it's like he didn't want to focus on time as a limit, limiting belief for, for us. And i thought it was powerful i think he has a he had a cosmic sensibility yeah um so do you do a big deal with birthdays now no i've still never really had a party i would think of you know i've had like one party um and i just have a couple friends that kind of like hang out on my birthday but i'm i appreciate and i celebrate my life but i also try to say, you know, I don't want to limit myself based on another year of age. That's great.

Yeah. Who knows if it's great or not, but it is what it is and it's allowing me to, you know, do what I've done. So you speak, you've been speaking about that we're all flawed human beings. And I read, you know, read a lot about this before where you're saying that, why do you think it's a society we're all so focused on being perfect then? Or striving for perfection, I should say. Oh, we're scared. I mean, being vulnerable is scary. It's even scarier in public. It's natural. But when we cover up our vulnerability with fear, and that's what we present in public, and that's the basis on which we act, really gets us into trouble. I mean, I'll just give you a really concrete example. the time that, you know, they experienced their, our, we experienced our vulnerability

in what we thought were our strongest fortresses, right? We experienced, so it was an experience of many things. Yes, it was a terrorist attack, you know, yes, it had political implications, but at the human level, the experience was, you know, this vulnerability, but we had no, we have no habits of being able to dwell with that. the reality of so many people around the world who live like this all the time, right? Places where bombs go off in marketplaces every week. So it could have been a point of kinship, among other things. It could have been a point of kinship with many people around the world. But instead, what we did is we covered that up. We didn't sit with that. We were appalled. We were righteously indignant, you know, for good reasons, right? I mean, I'm not criticizing this reaction either, but that's the only reaction we acted on, that need to reassert our power and our perfection. And I think that here, whatever we are 13 years later, you know, we're reaping the consequences of the human complexity and really just that, not just the political complexity, but the human complexity of everything, of all these dynamics in the world right now. everything of all these dynamics in the world right now. So I think somehow we have to,

I think maybe the, I, maybe, you know, your generation and the generations coming up are going to help with that. I kind of think this is a 20th century issue. And again, I'd come back to your issue, you know, what is greatness? It's about, you know, this perception of total strength, you know, no weaknesses, no failings, no mistakes along the way, which in any life or in any nation is always an illusion, right? That's not the way life works. So I do think that we are, that technology and the transparency that it just forces and just also the new sensibility. I mean, so many of these big pieces of perfection and greatness, these things we wore on our sleeves, including, you know, our economic, you know, we see that there are flaws here. And letting that sit

will make us healthier and will actually make us resilient and will actually make us more imaginative, right? About how we move forward and how we create new kinds of strength. So what do you think of the qualities that, you know, my generation and the generations to come need to focus on the most in order to create a better connected, loving, sustainable world? I've been talking to different people about this lately i do think that some of the the language that and the virtue which which are about virtues that that new generations bring in like transparency like authenticity i think that these are concepts that are about reuniting inner life with outer life you know with becoming people of greater integrity in public

and in private and reuniting these things, you know, in our workplaces, in our families, in our economy. So that, that I think is, is there and is good. Something else that's on my mind a lot lately is growing up our technology. You know, we. What do you mean by that? Well, I mean, the Internet is in its infancy. I mean, we feel like, right, we feel like, I mean, especially those of us who had already been alive for a little while before the Internet came along. It's like this thing suddenly descended and took over. It did.

Took over everything. Took over the world. Took over your life. Took over your work life. took over your children's lives. And so, so many people are just, you know, you, we just feel like, I mean, there's so much that's wonderful about it. And there's so much where you always feel like you're catching up and, and it's, and it's unmanageable, it feels unmanageable. And it is right now because it's so new. And I, it's important to, for us all to remember that it is so new and that it's our, it's our job. it's our calling, if you want to use that lofty word, to shape technology to human purposes.

It can go so many different ways. It can go to the darkest side and it can go to the brightest side, and it's up to us. And I think that younger generations who've grown up with the technology, I mean, I guess this may not be true, but this is what I believe, that they will have intuit making it work, you know, to humanize and, you know, towards the good qualities that we want in ourselves and in our society. Rather than just letting it run away, you know, with itself. Sure. Or letting it be completely, I mean, look, we've, you know, we've seen images of people being beheaded recently, right? I mean, that's also the way it can be used, but, but there's so much other potential. And I, I mean, I just think it's this amazing frontier, um, but it, it can use so much imagination and creativity and goodwill and perseverance to shape it. Isn't it, I find it fascinating what we're able to create

and achieve with the internet and the power of the internet. I mean, with countries being overthrown or governments being overthrown, I should say, and just so much that you can create with it, like you said, the imagination that people have with how to use it is so fascinating to me. And it just happened in the last 10 years, really. It's amazing. It's amazing. Can only imagine what will happen in the last 10 years really it's amazing it's amazing

can only imagine what will happen the next 10 20 years with it yeah and i it is it's working on all kinds of basic human perceptions and experiences like identity and community, right? And these things are becoming expansive, you know, in a way they've never been before and fluid in a way they've never been before. And that was happening anyway, but then it converges with the technology and it just, you know, shoves these doors wide open. And that's a big piece of change when we're redefining things like identity. Yes. And that's a big piece of change when we're redefining things like identity. But so much of what's happening is making us more complete, right? It's honest.

And, you know, I love this phrase of Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel is one of the great wise people in history. You know, his advice to young people was understand that your life is a work of art. And, you know, at the at its best, I think these online lives people have and, you know, these platforms for human creativity just, you know, just totally expands our imaginations about that concept. Yeah. Yeah. I want to ask you a few more questions before we wrap up and thank you for spending the time and answering these questions there. You know, I really appreciate your, your insights. You've got a lot to offer and a lot to give to, to everyone in the world and specifically my listeners. So I appreciate all that you've been sharing. I'd love to do this again sometime and dive even deeper into some of these topics

in the future. What is your vision with this message that you're delivering with the work you're doing with On Being? You know, you've won a lot of awards from the White House, and it's one of the top 50 shows, I guess, on iTunes, and probably, you know, one of the top out there in the world. What's your mission for the next five, 10 years? How much longer are you going to be doing this? And what do you see coming from it in the future? So something that's been interesting to me is the way my, what I'm learning from this kind of cumulative conversation is leading me to really start caring about common life, you know, public life. I think that when I started, I was really focused on

spiritual life and religious life, you know, as, you know, not just as individual experiences, but as community experiences, as forces in the world. But here's kind of the, you know, the big way I'm thinking about it now. The realization that gave rise actually to all the great traditions was this possibility that, you know, that our well-being, we talked about this a minute ago, you know, might be linked to the well-being of the neighbor, of the stranger, even the enemy. And our traditions and in this part of life gave rise to these great existential questions. You know, what does it mean to be human? How do we want to live? And I feel like we've come to this place with globalization and just in our development as a species where this third question comes in, you know, what does it mean to

be human? How do we want to live? And who are we to each other? And that third question, you know, that application of what it means to be human to common life, even to global life, has, you know, actually become a matter of survival. It's not optional anymore. And whether we call these spiritual questions, that's a way I like to talk about it, whether we link that to religion, these are essential human questions, and somehow they're there.

How we work with them in very practical ways is going to be about our survival and it's going to be about flourishing. And I think if we don't grapple with them, it will be our demise. So who we are to each other, that's always in the background for me in every conversation now. And we are exploring that on the show. We've created something called the Civil Conversations Project. I mean, I think it's just kind of the germ of something we're going to be building. And that's really become a real passion for me. I like that. You know, you've mentioned that we're all flawed human beings. And what I'm taking away from this conversation so far is that these flaws are what makes us human. That's kind of what I'm taking away from it. these flaws are what makes us human is kind of what I'm taking away from it. So with that being the sense, what's, what would you say is the biggest flaw that you have that makes you human? Oh my gosh. Um, you know, what's,

what's interesting is when you get better at, at just knowing that you're flawed, it's not such, it's not as much a problem anymore. So I'm not quite as burdened. I mean, I went through a big depression in my 30s, which I've written about. And, and that became a moment of having to, oh, you know, first of all, kind of get honest about painful things in my life. But more than that, how I dealt with them and how I kind of pushed through. I mean, I was such a perfectionist in my younger life in a way that ultimately was really hard on me. I mean, it was hard on people around me, but I was so hard on myself. I mean, it's, it's a miserable, perfectionism is a

miserable way to live. It's just exhausting. And so that's always, that's, you know, that's the big thing I've worked on in being gentler with myself. And, but it also makes me gentler with others and kind of, you know, under becoming self-aware. And so that it's not, it's like those impulses are still there in me, but just having this piece of self-knowledge so that when I start to lean that way, I see it. And then, you know, it's again, if you acknowledge these things and you start to see them and you don't hate yourself for them, you say, oh yeah, this is me too. Then if they're integrated, you're not as captive to them. I mean, that's my experience of growing, of getting older, which is a wonderful thing.

That answers your question. No, it does. Yeah. And what would you give your 30-year-old self? What advice would you tell your 30-year-old self of what you learned? Or someone who's 30 years old, what advice would you give them, you know, knowing what you know now? The main thing I would wish for myself if I could go back is I would have just taken more pleasure and that I would have, you know, taken more delight and, again, not been so hard on myself. Wow.

So you never allowed yourself to kind of receive? I mean, I guess, you know, it looked like I had a lot of fun. But I think, you know, everything was very driven and purposeful. And I was always looking for the next thing. It's very hard. I mean, I love that story you told about your father a little while ago because it's very hard. It's almost constitutionally

hard for us to really understand especially when you're young that every moment in fact is not defining you know that whatever is difficult or failing today is going to it's going to change right everything changes that's this it's this great spiritual truth. Change is the only constant. Even the great things, right? They're going to change too. And so I would, and so in that sense, I mean, I was serious and am serious, but I mean, I'm committed actually, kind of like you, I'm committed to saying, you know, even in our time, we can take in big ideas and there's this part of us that try to find the places to take pleasure and delight and forgive yourself and be gentle with yourself and be gentle with others. These things are not very fashionable. That is possible, though.

That's what I wish. That's what I wish for my 30-year-old self. I appreciate that answer. I know a lot of women who are very hard on themselves. So hard on themselves. Driven by looking perfect and being perfect. And I hope they all listen to that answer you just gave. So thank you for that.

Two final questions. What are you most grateful for recently? You know what I'm most grateful for? I've realized that I've moved into this time in my life where I'm enjoying like kind of ordinary things more. And I'm really grateful for that. It's a wonderful experience. I think it is in this category of something that I've practiced, you know, almost like you practice throwing a ball. And somehow it's become instinctive. I'm grateful that I'm better at being grateful.

Another message all women should hear. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. I want to, before I ask the final question, which is what I ask every guest at the end is one final question. I want to acknowledge you, Krista,

for the incredible work that you've done and that you're constantly doing to raise the consciousness level in the world and the commitment you have, the love that you have in creating your show, the compassion you have for your guests and for what you're doing to get the most out of other people. So I acknowledge you for everything you've done and thank you for being who you are. The final question, and I want to make sure everyone goes and checks out OnBeing. You can go to OnBeing.com. Definitely download the podcast on iTunes or anywhere it's available. Is there anywhere else that they should listen to? Well, we're just creating a new tablet app, which is going to be really gorgeous and make it really fun to dig into the archive.

So I think that's going to be out by the end of October. Awesome. So there will be an app. Yeah. And there's an app now, but it's really basic. It's going to get better. Thank you so much, Lewis. And I love what you're doing too. And I love the quality and content of this conversation. Thank you. Oh, my pleasure. Yeah. And people can listen to this on the radio as well, right? It's syndicated. Yes. Public radio, 337 stations. It's on a lot of places early Sunday mornings. Okay. So if you're not an early riser, iTunes might be the best option. Most of my audience listens via podcast via iTunes and their phone. But for those that do listen to radio still, definitely check it out. Well, I don't know what God is, but I do know that God invented podcasting.

Right? It's incredible, isn't it? It's fabulous. It's a miracle. It's amazing. It's so incredible. All the amazing gifts that have come my way since launching and having a podcast. And I'm sure we could share stories left and right about that another time. And I will have everything linked

up on the show notes over at lewisdowles.com. So I'll let you guys know where to go to get all this information as well. But the final question, Krista, which is what I ask everyone is what's your definition of greatness? Oh, I think my definition of greatness is somehow about, is about wholeness and it's about self-knowledge. It's about honoring our strengths, whatever they are, being grateful for them, cultivating them. Also honoring what we're not perfect at and what's gone wrong for us. honoring what we're not perfect at and what's gone wrong for us, honoring the other people and circumstances who, you know, who make us living into our greatness possible.

It's about connecting up these pieces of ourselves and our lives that, that unwittingly I think our culture often is kind of pulling these things apart. And I think greatness is an intentionality about putting them together and then kind of living the adventure of that. I love it. Thank you so much, Krista, for coming on, for sharing and for that definition. And hopefully we can catch up soon. Yeah, that's great. Thank you so much. there you have it guys i hope you enjoyed this interesting interview with krista and thanks so much for krista for coming on and sharing her wisdom make sure to check out on being.com and the podcast on being on itunes also go check out lewishouse.com slash 98 to see all the

different show notes please leave us a comment at slash 98 to see all the different show notes. Please leave us a comment at the question at the end of the show notes. We'd love to hear from you. And if you've yet to leave us feedback or a review, make sure to go head over to itunes.com slash school of greatness and let us know what you think about this episode. Thank you guys so much again for joining me today and for being a part of this powerful and inspiring community. I appreciate you and I'm so excited to share with you what we have coming up next. You guys know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something

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