The School of Greatness - 980 Decoding Greatness: Lessons from LeBron James, Tom Brady, Simone Biles, and More

Episode Date: July 15, 2020

"Genius recognizes genius"Lewis is joined by filmmaker Gotham Chopra, who has worked closely on projects with LeBron James, Tom Brady, Simone Biles, Kobe Bryant, and more. Gotham discusses the distinct qualities shared by the world's greatest athletes, the dark side of genius, and what he learned from his father, spiritual guru Deepak Chopra.- Kobe Bryant on Mamba Mentality, NBA Titles, and Oscars: https://link.chtbl.com/691-pod- Sadhguru teaches you how to control your mind: https://lewishowes.com/965

This is episode number 980 on Decoding Greatness with Gautam Chopra. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. LeBron James once said, I like criticism.

It makes you strong. And Tom Brady said, if you don't believe in yourself, why is anyone else going to believe in you? My guest today has actually spent significant time with LeBron, Tom Brady, and a host of many other superstar athletes and world-class performers, exploring what makes them so successful. Gotham Chopra is one of the most celebrated documentary filmmakers in the world. He directed Kobe Bryant's Muse, Tom vs. Time, which is a personal favorite of mine, Shut Up and Dribble with LeBron James, Stefan vs. The Game, and more. And he's out with

a new series on Apple TV Plus called Greatness Code, which spotlights untold stories from LeBron, untold stories from LeBron, Tom Brady, Usain Bolt, Alex Morgan, and Sean White, among others. He also happens to be the son of spiritual guru Deepak Chopra, as well as a close former friend of Michael Jackson's. So he has a unique perspective on stardom and success. And he opens up about a lot of this during this interview. We talk about the connective tissue between great athletes, whether success in sports comes down to talent, hard work, or mindset. The lessons Gotham learned from his dad, Deepak, when he wasn't a spiritual guru,

his relationship while going on tour with Michael Jackson, and so much more. And if you're finding value in Gotham's wisdom and this episode inspires you, make sure to pass this along to a friend. You have the power to change someone's life just by sharing this episode link, lewishouse.com slash 980, or copying and pasting the link on Apple Podcast or on Spotify or wherever you're listening to this.

And a quick reminder, if this is your first time here or you've been listening for a while, click on that subscribe button on Apple Podcasts right now so you can get up to date on the latest and greatest inspiration on the School of Greatness podcast. And leave us a quick review over on Apple Podcasts to start spreading the message of greatness to more people. And now without further ado, let's dive into this episode

with the one and the only Gautam Chopra. Welcome back, everyone, to School of Greatness. We've got Gautam Chopra in the house. My man, I'll cheers it up to you. Good to see you, man. Likewise. I'm excited to connect. You've got an interesting life, but also you've got this project that's out right now called Greatness Code. And when I heard about it, I was like, we've got to connect because School of Greatness, Greatness Code, this is what we're all about. And you essentially launched a series on Apple Plus, which is interviewing the world's greatest athletes on their accomplishments and how they became so great. And they're super interesting, cinematic, storytelling, graphical, everything.

It's really cool. I'm curious, why did you want to study greatness from these top athletes? You also did Tom vs. Time, which was an unbelievable series. I did, too, yeah. But why did you want to continue to take a step further after that in diving deeper into this topic from world-class athletes only? Well, you know the backstory actually starts before LeBron and Tom Brady all these athletes

that are featured in the series so I think it's 2013 ish 14 I started working with Kobe Bryant and so I'm a huge Celtics fan I grew up in Boston and loved the Celtics hated Kobe and hated the Lakers yeah you know I started working with Kobe and I remember I grew close to him. I mean, that's kind of the nature of the work I do is, like, building real relationships. And so across that time, I remember once talking to Kobe about, like, hey, so, you know, as a fan, I can, there's that game you scored 81 points. Right.

Game you scored 60 points in three quarters. Like, would you say that's your greatest game? Or maybe a playoff game or something like that? And Kilby was like, nah, there's this other game against Denver or against Tracy and Grady or something like that. Like where I, and it's obscure. It's like a regular season game that, you know, doesn't have necessarily the stakes

that you would think, playoffs, et cetera. Wasn't a game seven where you scored 50 and had the game winning shot. And it was like, I think is my greatest game. And by the way, because of something I was going through off the court, you know,

emotionally, mentally, psychologically, spiritually, whatever. So I was like, Oh, that's interesting.

And you know, I just, that all stuck with me. Then a few years later, I was working with LeBron on something, shut up and dribble. And I asked him and likewise, wasn't like coming back to

Cleveland and winning an NBA championship or even winning his first championship it was and I hate to say this as a Celtics game because the moment he said it I was like I remember that game you had 45 points 15 rebounds 9 assists it was a playoff game against the Celtics. And it was before he had won any NBA championships. He had just lost game five down in Miami. And all the haters were coming out again like, oh, LeBron's a choker. LeBron can't win the big one. And he's like, I remember all that. I heard all that.

I brought that with me to game six. Wow. And that's when. And so I don't know. It just was like the mechanics of greatness was really fascinating to me is like it's it's the moment for sure but it's the backstory and it's like the context in which greatness happens yeah just from a storytelling perspective I was really into that and then yeah like I always call it like you know the anatomy of greatness like what are the

elements like what comes together and of the expression, the great thing about sports is like, it's, it's highly visual. Like you can see it when it happens. It's cinematic. It's very emotional too, right? For sure. It's, it's visceral. Like, okay, you tell me that story. I can go on the internet and probably find the game. But then to hear like LeBron talk about it, it's the paradox of like, what's happening out on the court where he's destroying the Celtics. But inside when he talks about it's it's quiet, it's silent. He says the one in that is Nothing, right? Yeah. And again now as an artist as a storyteller a filmmaker you're like, okay

Like that, what does that mean? What is nothing? What does nothing mean? And how do I show that? Is nothing emptiness? Is nothing quiet? Is nothing meditative? Is nothing blank? Is, you know, is it clarity? Or what is that? I think, I mean, we're familiar here.

You're very familiar with the expressions, in the zone, flow state, peak performance, all of that. And that starts to, like like you start to hear consistency across when these athletes describe it there's this level of surrender yeah i hear all the stuff but in that moment i let it all go yeah you know in the present and all that stuff so i love sports but i also like i think of this as these are stories about spirituality. Like these are, you know, and the sports again, highly visual, which is great. You know, you can actually now figure out how to show that experience. But at its essence, it's like, it's about human potential.

It's about, you know, our highest potential. Yeah. I used to play many sports in high school, college, and I played arena football as well for a season and a half before I got injured. I also played with the USA handball team in my pursuit of making the Olympics, which we haven't qualified for in almost 30 years now. So it's very challenging to qualify for, but I had many moments where I felt that, I don't know if I would call it nothing, but I felt clarity. You know, it's like I just feel, I feel clear and I'm not feeling the pain. Maybe it is nothing, but I'm not like noticing my toe is hurting.

I'm not noticing what people are saying. I'm just in the moment focused on that play, especially in football, and just focusing on that moment as opposed to what's happening in the future, what mistakes they did in the past. I think that's what everyone needs to try to get to in order to achieve some type of peak performance or greatness. Did they all have something in common where they said, I felt nothing in those great games? Because I know Tom was talking about some game with the Buffalo Bills, and I was like, what is this game?

But he was just talking about how he was just so locked in to every moment, how like every play, every pass was like perfect timing for him, right in the numbers, everything like that. Do all the athletes have that nothing mentality or? So yeah, he talks about 2007, this it's the, it's the undefeated season. I think it's like a week, eight or nine game.

Again, obscure, not the one, it's like a week, eight or nine game. Again, obscure. It's not the 28-3 comeback or whatever. Which was amazing. But it's this thing that's meaningful to him and that experience. And yeah, I think there is that clarity you said. There's that absence

of... What was interesting to me was a lot of the male athletes, don't stereotype but like they chose these things later in their career when the weight of expectations were on them like you know the scrutiny the expectation of greatness lebron the haters sean white talks about you know olympic qualifiers people think i just show up and like it happens right i just win gold medals yeah and he's like you know so there's all this pressure so tom talking about an undefeated season two of the women we talked to katie ludecky and alex morgan both talked about earlier in their careers no one knew who they were they were just there was no pressure katie was 15 years old like

she's like nobody they were like are you the right thing when she won yeah the medal yeah when she broke the world record too yeah she would yeah she break about like a half a pool length or something it was yeah you watch that video it's like where is everyone and these are world-class athletes she was 15. she was 15. when was that uh 2012. wow yeah so i think there is a consistency. Sometimes the backstory is different. So what were the women, what was their challenge? It wasn't about the pressure?

What was it about for them? It was almost like being liberated. No one has any expectations. I don't have to meet someone else's standards. I'm just present. The press doesn't know who I am. Maybe it's my parents and my friends, but that's about it. I mean, Katie was like, I'm in London. Yeah cool this is awesome she talked about i don't know if it

made the yeah it does like she was like in the green room and she's like i saw michael phelps and she's like my heart started you know she's like what do i say to him and stuff like that she was hero worshiping someone else right and so there was like a real sweetness. Even like, yeah, Alex Morgan, it was, she wasn't even in the starting lineup. Like, you know, it's not the Alex Morgan we all know now, the Olympic champion and all that sort of stuff. I mean, the World Cup champion. It's nobody knew who she was. She's a backup.

Her teammates didn't even really know who she was or where she came from. And so, but I think you're right about the moment is like everything else fades away and it's just locked in tom you know he talks a lot uh in that game and really across that season about randy moss and he's like it's how they were connected mind meld you know and uh that's super fun part of like the episode where he's talking about routes that Randy's breaking off. It's not even what's in the playbook. It's like Randy's making choices and Tom's like, it's like I knew before he was going to do it what he was going to do. Well, I think the common theme that I hear and I'm hearing you say is the amount of preparation and hard work that goes in for decades for athletes to reach a

peak potential level and to reach greatness it's like they have done so many reps yeah on this it's not just like there's a big game opportunity i hope i'm ready it's a preparedness it's a confidence where then you can eliminate distractions and stop worrying about messing up or anything you're just going out to do what you've been doing for years, right? Tom, you know, talks about, I remember, so you mentioned Tom vs. Time. When we started Tom vs. Time, it was literally three or four weeks was our first shoot day after the incredible 28-3 comeback. And I was on a practice field with him in Boston.

And I was like, I'm a Patriots fan, so I was like, dude, are you serious? Like, you just won a Super Bowl a month ago and he was like yeah a month ago like I'm you know training in March and April pays off in January and February and again it's those reps it's the sort of mad scientists in the laboratory tweaking so that in the moment you can just be instinctive. You're not thinking about your hip or your arm movement or your whatever. It's like at that moment you're just reacting. I think I've seen videos of Drew Brees

like before a game all by himself on the field practicing every rep like at the goal line and anticipating and running around and scrambling and then practicing and seeing it ahead of time so that when it's there you're just ready and prepared i think if conor mcgregor has done a lot of that as well where you see him yeah actually doing the punch he wants to do in the fight and then knocking the guy out with that same punch and i think that type of preparation and visualizing months ahead a day before hours before is what really will support

you towards achieving greatness you may lose still yeah but it's going to give you that that edge i'm curious you talked about kobe i interviewed kobe as well and me and tiffany got to go down to his office and spend you know a couple hours down there and really experience his i really call it an energy because he has an incredible energy about him, at least when I got to be with him. And the thing that I always talk about with people that was most impressive for me, you spent more time with him, was we got there an hour and a half before our interview, probably 6.30 AM. And he was there an hour before that by himself alone in the dark, an hour before that by himself alone in the dark looking up at the ceiling in his office had no clue we were there but just the fact that he was there not working but just dreaming and

visualizing about the day for me is one of the most impressive things i saw and the assistant who let us in said he was at the gym at 4 a.m with his daughter before this and he's the first one in the office still and this was after he won an Oscar, and I was like, this guy's a machine. And he was preparing for the day with all the things. He had a lot of stuff. He was launching a podcast and books

and all this stuff, and his clarity about the day and visualization process for me was really powerful, more so than the interview itself was to witness that. What were some things you saw about him from your experience that really impressed you that made you realize this is why he's one of the greatest of all time yeah I

mean of everything you just described is like so you know takes me back I mean he was maniacal like you know in the best of ways and worst of ways because I worked with him across like a year and a half to two wow so you saw a lot of them I saw a lot of them. And what you just described going down to, I would get texts from him at like 3, 4 in the morning. He's like, bro, you got to come down. Like, can you be here by 6 a.m.?

Like, you know, I have something to say because we ended up doing a whole, it turned into this like almost like therapy type of thing. We built in that office you're describing in Newport like a stage because he just wanted to do more and more it was like okay we you know we have to find a way to accommodate this so he had an intensity to him but also a clarity I think that was just unique and different we used to call it because I was down there for like a year and a half two years my wife was like wait again we used to call it Kobe jail going into that office yeah i was like man like i don't know if i'm ever gonna get out of this um but it was you know it was so intense and it it drove me and my team towards greatness like he just

he wouldn't compromise there was nothing he would if it wasn't like perfect in his eyes it wasn't good enough so from like perfect like okay'm going to shoot this and tell this story and then watch it back. And if I don't like it, then let's do it again. Or is it more, I didn't like this. It was like, I don't know if, you know, we went deep enough. I don't know. Like, you know, so he was, you know, so he was self-critical.

He was speaking, telling the story, and then he would reflect to you afterwards and say, Oh, we got to do it again. We got to do it or we have to do more like he wasn't into rehearsing wasn't like okay i need to say it better i need to be more honest i need to give it more depth and then like you know we would he really enjoyed this idea of like i don't want to talk about just like the the predictable stuff the games the 81 point game or whatever like i want to talk about the obscure stuff i want to talk and so like putting a medal in paul gasol's locker room during off season and like to inspire him and then like finding these really obscure um things you know i'll tell you actually a story that's why i like doing this because i don't get to tell these stories but

like when i first met kobe way before i started working with him it was because i randomly i don't think believe in randomness but like i sat at a charity event with him and i sat next to him and kobe and i are around the same age same you know grew up in the same era he was a huge lakers fan i was a big celtic fan that was like what we ended up in the 80s talked about at that dinner that we were next to each other and then literally a day later or 48 hours later he texted me and he's like hey man can you come down to newport i want to show you something so i was like okay so i like go down to newport sit and he's got years this this is 2012 maybe or something like that and so he's got these vhs tapes like back from the 80s and he pops it in like some vcr he has and he's like he's like you're a celtics fan he's like let me why do you

think larry bird was the greatest pump faker of all times like i don't know like you know what and he's like let me show you and he's like it's not his shoulders it's not his arms it's his eyes watch his eyes and kobe was like he was like this sort of mad scientist. This genius. I mean, he's a savant, right, when it comes to basketball. And he was like, watch his eyes. That's where the pump fake is. And so we sat there for like two hours.

And he broke down Kevin McHale, Robert Parrish, and like obscure guys. Like Jerry Seasting, Scott Widman, and all the Lakers, you know. And he was just like, he would look and I think later in his career, he did this, not just as basketball players, but as he transitioned into storytelling and stuff like that, he would do it with, you know, the great artists, the great storytellers, the great composers. That sort of became the foundation of the project we ended up like he drew a lot of inspiration from Michelangelo and Leonardo da Vinci and as much as he did from Michael Jordan and Charles Barkley and those guys Yeah, and I think people got to see his genius with the ESPN

Details which was really cool to see like him analyzing everything which you got to see I guess before that I got to see it and I you know, that tom brady would be he'll watch game film he's the same way which was cool to watch in time to see that because it brought me back to college football days of just watching hours of film and seeing all the mistakes you made and then preparing for the next right the next game well i mean like you said even in that like you could you know, the cameras would go on and first he was kind of pointing it out. But over like five, ten minutes into it, he'd just get lost. He's just upset. It wasn't like I wasn't even there.

He's just a machine in there. Yeah, it's like this sort of, you know, beautiful mind that sort of descends into this world, you know. you know how important do you think is it for all great athletes and all great minds to watch game film whether that's artists on stage singers performers musicians of their performance how important do you think that is i think it's i think it's important in the sense that you know again like accumulating all of this knowledge and information so that in the moment you can be free of it in a way you can be instinctive and intuitive i also know like tom uh and some of the other athletes like they don't want to be over late they don't want to be robotic they want to have like they it's like i'm sure with what you do it's like

you don't want to like be pre-programmed like you don't want things to feel choreographed because then you get sort of stuck in that moment. So there's a fine line between preparation, but also then just letting go and being free and not overanalyzing. And improvising. Yeah. And so it's a balance. But, you know, you're talking about in the series, but I worked with Steph last year, is like, Steph's like the, arguably, in my opinion, the greatest shooter of all time, like greatest jump shooter.

He's every day out there trying to tweak his jump shot and figure out, it's not about just like replicating what he's done before. It's about like, how can I tweak this thing? How can I, you know, that story about tom brady a couple weeks after the super like after winning the super bowl and the greatest comeback of history he's obsessing over like his hip movement and he's like something's wrong something's wrong i need to like figure this out and he just won the championship he's working with his throwing coach tom house and saying help me with this thing you know it's like these guys just never stop so

it's not like let me take a break and celebrate this and then just get back into preseason training camp and pick up where I left off. It's how do I analyze the whole season, celebrate for a moment, but then pick it up and see how I can make it better. Yeah, and I think, you know, consistently what I've seen is also as much as like this series of greatness,

there's also probably another series to be done around failure. And these athletes remember the one that got away, the thing that Tom says, it's the scar that never heals. Tom Bilyeu, Man, I know that feeling. What's the, there's a series on Netflix, Great Losers or something like that. I think you remember telling me this a couple years ago. It's about these stories of losers, but the great lessons they learned from it or something.

I can't remember the title of it, but that's interesting. What is the thing that makes, what is the defect that all these great people have? Defect. I mean, look, they have an obsessiveness. I don't know, like there's a, I mean, sobe is the best example of this is like you know he's not an easy guy to get along with and like you know there's a

combativeness that really drove him and again as a sports fan i recognize that you know it's like oh yeah like kobe won three championships when literally it turns out he and chakra like having fistfights in practice they had to constantly be pulled apart. And Phil Jackson was managing them because they were at each other's throats. And meanwhile, you hear the stories about Kobe. Every time a new player, they'd start a new season and there's a new guy on the team, he would go at them in practice. And he would try to destroy them.

Some guys, Ron Artest, Lamar Odoms, would come right back at him, and that's how he built his trust. Gained his respect. There were other guys. Smush Parker's probably one of the anecdotes I've heard. And he would just run over them. And then they were just never the same.

They could never. And I, not as a basketball player, but as a collaborator it's like oh man like i'm gonna have to fight with kobe like you know to get like he's gonna try to intimidate and and sort of like you got to prove yourself push back a lot on you or oh yeah like every day it was like really sort of fight you know but in a enriching way i mean it was i say it was exhausting but it was also exhilarating right and that was just his nature it's how i don't know that it's called a defect but it's like that was his style

and it was tiring but you know it was also like how he pushed you is how he pushed himself it was just better and better like i said no compromise out of that guy. So, you know, I think that's, you know, LeBron, very different personality. Tom, very different personality. They all kind of, oftentimes you see it's, you know, whoever these guys are on the court, a lot of the zoom out is off. Did you ever see insecurities with these athletes? Like self-doubt. Whether it be in their craft or self-doubt, whether it be in their craft

or self-doubt outside of their craft? Like in an interview, maybe isn't the main thing that they do, but they still have to do it. Did you see them insecure or doubting themselves? I think that, yes, yes. I mean, also look, it's sports. So actually more often than not, you fail.

Like, you know, the best baseball players are striking out or not getting hit over. Like, you know, the best baseball players are striking out or not getting hit over 70% of the time, right? So it's their ability to deal with that and turn it around. So legendary story is Kobe Bryant shooting four air balls in a, you know, playoff game. What does he do that night? He flies back and he goes to the Palisades High School gym and he shoots all night long you

know i remember like again with kobe like um he and i were watching a brooklyn nets game and one of the players like oh for nine in the first half and then the second half he took no shots he was oh for nine at the end of the game and i said to kobe like oh that's kind of weird like he didn't and kobe's like yeah he outplayed himself. He's like, dude, I would be 0 for 49 before I stopped shooting. I'll keep shooting. Yeah, he's like, you know, it's, yes, is it failure?

For sure. But it's your ability to rebound from failure and come back. And so I think like, is there vulnerability? Is there failure? For sure. It's that ability to like use it and channel it into success that is unique.

You also spent a lot of time with other great individuals, not athletes, Michael Jackson being one of them. And you said you met him when you were 15 and then you were very, you were pretty close with him for two decades, is that right? I talked to Michael a week or days before he passed away really yeah yeah it was a you know now look i look back on it and especially with all that we know about michael and it's been documented about him and i mean there were definitely things that i saw that i was like oh that's interesting my experience with him was he was a genius he was

My experience with him was he was a genius. He was one of the most gifted artists in the history of human civilizations. And actually now when I read, we all read about Vincent van Gogh or Picasso or Mozart. They were crazy geniuses. They were disturbed in many ways. And I think Michael was that. I mean, I can say that honestly as somebody who loved and respected him, but also had a dark side,

for sure. And, you know, in my experience, he was amazing. He was great. He was nothing but sort of integrity just in my interaction with him. But, you know, I mean,

I've heard the stories, you know, and I don't doubt them, you know, and sadly. But I think he was a tortured artist, you know, and I don't doubt them, you know, and sadly, but I think he was, he was a tortured artist, you know, in many ways, and, you know, his work speaks for itself, but, you know, it's interesting, too, I would say, like, my experience with Michael is, in some ways, I think, what has given a lot of the other luminaries athletes in particular that have comfort like kobe used to always say is like man if michael jackson could trust you i guess you're pretty good like you know

and uh you know i found even steph curry he's way younger than me but steph was always like fascinated and curious like would ask me these stories about you know michael and what he was like and i think genius you know recognizes genius wow um so yeah pretty interesting I don't know that I fully like unpacked and really decoded my you know relationship but I was up at Neverland a lot really you know yeah I like you know took members of my family up there you know what would you guys was it just like hanging out, partying? What was... I mean, Michael's form of partying.

I mean, so when I was 18 years old, I think, Michael asked like if I wanted to go on tour with him. What? He was going on tour in Europe. And so like my junior, I think I was 17 actually, my junior year of high school, like my summer job. So I did go the first few weeks really and i just like on the road it was insane like you know it was seven weeks on the road in europe but

you know and he would just pack every stadium but i will say like one or two weeks into it like it was amazing you would go and like michael would do these huge performances and then at night like he would just like sit up in his hang out yeah but like he was not like his band was going out and partying and like having a good time like Michael was like sitting up I mean he's the biggest kid superstar but also the biggest celebrity on the

planet yes like he couldn't go anywhere so he would sit up in his you know suite and like drink orange juice and like watch My fair lady and i was like yeah i was like i was 17 i was like okay this is cool but can i go hang out like with the guys going to the club and so i told mike i'm like what can i do and he they just like created a job for me like on the tour so the first two weeks were like just hanging out with Michael doing all this stuff and then the next five weeks were like I was working which was amazing and you know was truly memorable and I

do remember at that time like I now when I think back I'm like oh yeah like it was strange and and Michael was like Edward Scissorhands like he was trapped by his fame yeah and he had a very small circle of people that he trusted and that he felt like safe around and stuff like that so you can see the origins of like just how the struggles yeah and it was it was a different time it was like free social media right so you didn't even have that way to engage with people he was truly isolated what were some of the conversations you remember that fascinated you i mean if you're just is it just a few people up in a suite, he's having some orange crush and a pizza and you're watching Disney movies and what are you?

I mean, so there was like this childlike quality to him. It was like trapped. He was like a 15 year old boy that was trapped, you know, like he had never really matured from that time, you know? And I knew Michael across a long period of time. I was, you know, I knew when he got married to Lisa Marie Presley and like there was a lot of like things that Michael would talk about as an adult that I was like, and by that time I was like in college or, you know, I think even later, like I was into my early

twenties, et cetera. And I was like, Michael's still talking like he's 15 years old, like, you know, about things that you experience when you're that old. Like, I've been able to be out in the world and mature and have girlfriends and stuff like that and learn along the way. Right, and he's still figuring it out. There, and it's just like, but that's, you know, that was his experience. And then he would just, like, he went through this nation of islam

phase and i would like go meet and like i have all these guys and he was always like dabbling with like you know islam and buddhism and kabbalah and like just stuff like that because but he interacted with it in a very sort of different way like he didn't go to the temple and sort of interact with normal you know jewish people it, you know, it was very sort of strange. Do you think all these great individuals have never fully healed from some type of psychological, physical, sexual, emotional trauma of the past? And it's what drives them to be this creative, crazy, artistic maniac? Or do you feel like there are any athletes or world-class entertainers that you've spent time with who are truly healed from their past

and are just doing it because they love the game and they love the craft, and it's not this crazy, painful thing that they need to get out or express in the world and prove something? Yeah, I think sports are unique because a lot of them are team sports, right? So no matter what kind of trauma or isolation you have in your past, you know, part of being successful, at least in a team, is like connecting with other people. And that's in its own way, restorative and healing. So, you know, LeBron James comes from a difficult background, single parent home, Akron, like just all sorts of stuff, like growing up in the inner city and all of that. But like gradually over time, it's really started in high school and the guy was like already having success.

And to this day, he's surrounded by those same guys. Maverick Carter and, you know, some of the guys in his inner circle. And so I think there's something healing about that. I think that's also a product of the times in some ways. It's hard to be isolated. Even fame isn't as isolating as it is because of social media and stuff. I think when you start going back, Michael's time, and then, of course, all the stuff we read about, like I said, theelo's and just um these iconic artists and i think it's a very different

thing um you know i've i've been fortunate because i've kind of grown up around it like my my dad is like in spiritual healing yeah yeah and he's famous like and i grew up around that fame and so to me it was like i got to see an inside i think there's also like you know my dad is famous as he was in the world there's like my dad and like i've watched him right you know he's he had to sort of be a normal person in one way even while he was this thing and i think that to other people i think that's consistent with what i've seen with a lot of i mean lebron's a perfect example it's like's like one of the, if not the greatest of all time,

but he's also a dad, he's also like a husband. He's also like trying, he's building businesses and stuff. Like there's something very relatable about him. Yeah. What did you see within your dad in terms of, here's an individual who a lot of people, especially pre-social media, looked as like a spiritual

leader and healer, maybe not perfect, but this like person you go to for the answers. But then you might see another side of him that's like, oh, but he does this and he does that. And he's, he raised his voice at me and he's what, I don't know what he did, but how do you, how have you been able to witness that, you know, persona that he has had over the years and see how it's either affected in a positive way with the fame and that pressure to be a spiritual leader and be kind of perfect, I guess.

Right. And just being like dad who's also a human being and has got flaws. Yeah. Yeah, I think, I mean, I think it was a big, it was very formative for me too you know the thing about my father also is that pre his spiritual guru identity like his arc and he's talked about it quite openly as like he was far from that really oh yeah he was you know um he was trained as a western physician was an immigrant probably came to this country when he's like 23 24 years old after medical school you know drank a lot like abused drugs you know like you know smoked a lot

of weed stuff like that like he had a very addictive personality and like had a lifestyle that was sort of like the opposite of what he's now known for but his professional transformation going from being a western trained physician to like a healer or you know eastern sort of spiritual teacher etc it was underlied by like a personal transformation like he kind of had a deep dissatisfaction in his life and I lived through that I watched it I remember I remember. As a kid you remember. Yeah, I remember like when I was probably eight or nine years old and my dad was still like, he would work all weekend or you know, he would moonlight at the, he was an ER physician, et cetera.

He would work to bone, he would come back, have two whiskies or whatever, probably more than two whiskies and pass out. And there were times like he fell out of bed and broke his nose, he was like so out of it. And like he fell out of bed and broke his nose he was like so what out of it and like so i remembered that version of my dad way before like the one that started meditating and all that sort of stuff so i think there's like a real transformation that so i remember that i did a documentary a couple years ago like called decoding deepak was basically

okay here's who he is to the world and he's like this spiritual guru etc here's who he is to me and here's the story that sort of underlies this and I think that makes it a lot more actually everything that he is you know this idea of spirituality or perfection or whatever to me is a lot more um admirable when you know like, there's a real human being that's, you know, struggled with things. And again, same thing with athletes. It's, you know, like this person who you've seen as this moment of greatness, it's actually like their human being is struggling with all these things. You know, that makes it that much more admirable. What's the biggest challenge you've had to face in your life then with seeing your father kind of go

through that transformation and then his fame interviewing all these great athletes and kind of being friends with all these great individuals do you feel pressure to be like oh I've got to live up to the standard that I'm of all these people I hang out with and my father or do you feel I've had it pretty good like you know I mean I've had a a great you know just upbringing i have totally supportive parents you know um you know my formative years were basically from teenage and my dad had had his transformation at that point this is very sort of supportive in terms of like yeah do what you're most passionate about i mean i suppose like especially earlier in like my professional career there was an expectation oh your dad's like this virtual guy

you must be just like him you must like be so comfortable with yourself and and I think you know I was young like I didn't know those things I had you have to go through them yourself and so I think for me you know obviously a big transformational thing was like becoming a parent myself because like suddenly like you see the world outside of yourself and you start to become more comfortable with who you want to be and who you eventually become so I think that's probably and yeah I definitely like you know I'm around a lot of these people who are great and it's like man like I want to be that like I need to have that sort of success but then I remind myself again like

well just like everything you see like you know isn't as perfect as it always seems and and i think i'm fortunate now especially with like a tom brady i mean i say this with hopefully a lot of humility it's like but i think as much as i learned from him like he he enjoys being around me like you know i can learn a lot from seeing what he's accomplished on the football field but he he loves like the stuff we're doing he's part of you know my company religion of sports and he always says it's because he learned so much from not just being around me but being great artists yeah and you know creative people what is that with it seems like a lot of athletes are

creating their own production companies you know when i interviewed kobe i was like what's your mission and he said to tell great stories because that's what's going to change the world yeah lebron's got a production company with maverick yeah tom it seems like every great athlete now wants to kind of tell their story and tell other stories why do you you think that is? Is it a trend because it's cool? Is it? I think it's a little bit all of the above. I think it's also, it's like, you know, certainly athletes towards the end of their career, one, they're figuring out, okay, like, what do I do?

They've all established their own. What do I do next, you mean? What do I do next? You know, because of social media, they all have existing audiences, right? Like, I think I just saw before I was coming here, LeBron had like 64 million people on Instagram. Like, they have this existing audience. It's like, how do I communicate? So storytelling is great.

But I also think, especially, again, at the end of your career, Kobe, you mentioned, is like, they're trying to sort of deconstruct, like, how did I do this? Like, what is this story? Because, you know, you don't know it as much when you're going through it. You certainly don't know in the moment, like, of greatness. You just focus on your goal. Yeah, like, I want to win. You're just there.

You're present. So it's a lot of it's, like, reflecting. And it's also, what can I take from this incredible run, all this success, and apply it to the rest of my life? You know, how do I take the wisdom of sports and greatness and apply it to now the next stage? And what you realize, like, when you're working with great athletes, I think when I was working with Kobe, and this is like 34. The guy was like 35 years old, you know, when we started this thing.

It's like, he's a young man. It's only in sports, like, when you talk about 35, it's like, oh, my God, like, he's so old. Right. How does he do that um but these are actually very young people who are like thinking about like i said kimmy was 15 crazy she'll she's now like 23 i guess you know something like that um she's gonna be done like this olympics now next now that's short retire probably yeah it's like now what you know so i think storytelling like unpacking that greatness uh and that journey is sort of intuitive

to yeah yeah it's a fascinating stuff man what's uh what are some of the things you're really excited about next that you've the stories you haven't told yeah well you know like i think one thing i've learned also is like be present like I'm not that person who thinks about like my five year plan, my 10 year plan, my exit. You know, I'm very in the moment. One, I love surrounding myself with, you know, other great thinkers and innovators, you know. So I love like doing this. I want to do more stuff with you. I think that, you know, there's a couple of projects, you know, I'm working on something again with Tom Brady called Man in the Arena. That's really like unpacking his 20 years of success Wow. I also now because that's the Ron James favorite quote, right? Yes

You know Tom is at a new stage of his career. So like that's been fun. Are you documenting this? I've definitely seen this is an interesting time right now to be traveling cross-country The Florida of all places to try to capture those things. But I've been down there a couple of times. Yeah, that's even, I don't even know what that project will be, but I've also learned to trust, you know. Trust the process. Yeah, it'll just kind of. So, you know, we have a lot of podcasts, like, you know, stuff we're building.

I'm really excited by also, you know stuff we're building i'm really excited by oh so you know i think i've been an artist for so long like focus like on one project now i get to be in a position where i get to be with other people i get to like you know help other artists like give them a platform and so that's really you know through our company we're sort of identifying a lot of people who are really gifted they just don't have access and now we can help provide that so you know building out religion of sports like tom michael strands our other partner and really like what resources can we bring in so that we can help people yeah and you also look the times that we're living in it's divisive and the climate's like how can we make

a difference how can we say something that matters and that helps us collectively heal? I love it, man. I'm going to ask you a couple of final questions. This one's called the three truths. I ask everyone at the end. So imagine this is your final day on this earth and many, many years from now, and you've accomplished every dream

you could set out to accomplish, even though you don't think a year or five years ahead, you accomplish everything you want to accomplish. You tell all the stories, you create the companies, you have a great family, all that stuff. But it's your last day and you've got to take all your work with you. Every piece of content you've ever created, it's got to go with you to the next place. But you get to leave behind three things you know to be true from all your lessons and experiences that you've personally learned or that you've experienced from other people and you get to write them on a piece of paper and this is all we get to have of your life's work these three big lessons what would you say are your three truths you would share with everyone one don't take yourself too seriously you know um i think it's so easy to get caught up in the

moment but to have fun and take a step back and look at the big picture i think that would be a big one for me i think um to spend your time wisely you know i feel like now looking back i'm like oh man i wasted a lot of time really doing a lot of you know things that just seemed important at the time but weren't of consequence and then i think probably most importantly you know especially as a father there's something i talk about with my son a lot it's like be of service you know like what are you gonna what are you gonna leave behind what are you going to leave behind? What are you going to contribute? How are you going to be, you know, how are you going to move the ball forward? You know, and it's, it's, I mean, like, it's somewhat cliched, but it's not about having the nicest car, the biggest house or whatever. Nobody cares at the

end. That's not the stuff you remember. You know, it's about like, what did I, how was I of service to the world? And again, I think we living in a time this is even more appropriate than ever. Like how can I make a difference? You know, did my life matter? And I think that will probably be in how I contributed, not like what material things did I accumulate? Yeah, that's beautiful.

You've got Greatness Code, it's out right now. It's on Apple TV Plus, religionofsports.com, where you've got all your projects from the past where people can find them on different platforms and current stuff. You're on social media, Gotham Chopra, Twitter and Instagram as well. How else can we support you and find your work

and be of service? Yeah, thank you. No, I think continuing to be in dialogue i'm excited just like this relationship you know i think that's the other thing is you know my life has always been a series of relationships like every project i've ever worked on that's been successful has been the product of like a genuine relationship you know that's built over time like not having an agenda you know um and so I think just it's about communicating engaging

And and finding ways to collaborate. Yeah. Okay. Cool. I appreciate that. Yeah One technology for a moment got them for your ability to constantly show up in adversity over the years and constantly to constantly show up in adversity over the years and constantly create powerful relationships with people that are probably hard to build trust with and tell great stories of them. I think that's one of the most challenging things that someone can do is tell a great story. And you've constantly showed up through your companies and also individual relationships, building that trust to serve humanity. So I really acknowledge you for that gift that you have and how you keep showing up with these opportunities. It's really powerful.

And I want to ask the final question for you. It's what's your definition of greatness? Being present, you know, and I think look, greatness in sports is about incredible performances, but you know, you were talking about Kobe. I thought that was really beautiful. Like your description, it's about being present in the moment. I'm one of those people who's constantly on social media and check my phone.

And I remind myself all the time, especially like when I'm, you know, with my son or now I just got a new puppy. Like, and, you know, one of my favorite things is in the morning i wake up around 5 5 30 and i just go i take the puppy out and i'm just i leave everything behind i'm just like with him and that playfulness and that just like you know being present i think greatness is sometimes 45 15 and 9 from lebron j. Sometimes it's just about being in the moment. Awesome. My man, appreciate you, brother. Thank you.

Thanks, man. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. Make sure you share this with someone that you think will find value in this message. You have the power and the ability to change someone's life today just by sending them this link, lewishouse.com slash 980, or just copy and pasting on the Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you're listening to this. Copy and paste that link and share it with a friend. Post it on your social media. Tag me. Tag Gotham.

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Look at your life right now and reflect on the challenges, the pressure, the negative situations that might be in your life. And I want you to flip the switch. I want you to interpret that situation in your favor and not against you. And when you interpret things differently in your life and you have a new perspective on those moments and on those situations and on those negative experiences, when you interpret it differently, you set yourself up for greater opportunities and for yourself to have the ability to rise. But you must remember that you matter, you are loved, and you are worth it. I'm so grateful for you. And as you know what time it is, it's time to go out there and do something great.