The School of Greatness - Brené Brown's Guide to HEALING & Finding True Belonging

Episode Date: October 21, 2023

My guest on this special rewind episode of The School of Greatness has carved out a very prominent place for herself in the world of emotional well-being.Who is Dr. Brené Brown? Dr. Brené Brown studies shame.  Often, when she’s on a plane and isn’t in the mood for talking, this one-liner will easily shut down an unwanted conversation (or even a wanted one). Typically, we don’t like to talk about shame or anything that can make us feel vulnerable. But Dr. Brown isn’t afraid to talk about shame, vulnerability, and loneliness, because sadly, it is at the heart of humanity today. These are feelings that we all feel at some point in our lives.We don’t like to talk about vulnerability, mostly because it makes us feel “weak” or “powerless.” We feel like if we admit our fragility, we will be broken in two by the opinions of others and even ourselves. The reluctance to discuss shame has attached a stigma to a very common emotion that we all experience. We discuss that, and more on today’s episode.In this episode you will learn,What belonging truly means.What makes people complex.What every parent needs to know about when their kids grow up.Why parents are so defensive about their parenting style.How to support men in being willing to discuss vulnerable topics.For more information go to www.lewishowes.com/1518For more Greatness text PODCAST to [phone]More SOG episodes on Radical Self Love & Acceptance:Jason Derulo – https://link.chtbl.com/1460-podKaramo Brown – https://link.chtbl.com/1457-podPokimane – https://link.chtbl.com/1443-pod

My friend, I am such a big believer that your mindset is everything. It can really dictate if your life has meaning, has value, and you feel fulfilled, or if you feel exhausted, drained, and like you're never going to be enough. Our brand new book, The Greatness Mindset, just hit the New York Times bestseller back to back weeks. And I'm so excited to hear from so many of you who've bought the book, who've read it and finished it already, and are getting incredible results from the lessons in the book. If you haven't got a copy yet, you'll learn how to build a plan for greatness through powerful exercises and toolkits designed to propel your life forward.

This is the book I wish I had when I was 20, struggling, trying to figure out life. 10 years ago, at 30, trying to figure out transitions in my life and the book I'm glad I have today for myself. Make sure to get a copy at lewishouse.com slash 2023 mindset to get your copy today. Again, lewishouse.com slash 2023 mindset to get a copy today. Also, the book is on Audible now so you can get it on audiobook as well. And don't forget to follow the show so you never miss an episode. I was so shocked to learn in the research that the opposite of belonging is fitting in. Because fitting in is assessing a group of people and thinking, who do I need to be? What do I need to say? What do I need to wear? How do I need to

act? And changing who you are. And true belonging never asks us to change who we are. It demands that we be who we are. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Welcome to today's special episode. Over the last 1300 plus episodes, there have been so many impactful interviews that I've been lucky

enough to have. And I always like to reflect on some of the most powerful. And this episode was one that resonated with most of you guys in the past. And I'm excited for the value it's going to bring you today as well. So I hope you enjoy today's episode. I'm very excited about this because you have a new book out called Braving the Wilderness, the quest for true belonging and the courage to stand alone. Make sure you guys get this book right now. It's going to change the game. And I got a chance to go through it. Love everything that you write about in here.

And I feel very connected to you. Yeah. Because I felt very alone for almost my entire life. I felt like I didn't belong anywhere. I was the youngest of four. I was always picked on, bullied. I was sexually abused when I was a kid by a man that I didn't know. I was always picked last on sports teams.

And I know you weren't even picked for, I think it was the step team or some type of. Oh, yeah, the drill team. The drill team. I remember how that kind of transformed your life. It was defining. Defining, right? These moments that we go through as kids can really define and shape us. And so I feel connected to you in that sense that I felt very alone and didn't know who I was for a very long time.

And still I'm trying to learn who I am. Yeah, me too. You are? Yeah. But you seem like you have it all figured out. Oh, God. No, I don't. No, I don't have it.

I mean, first of all, I think the one thing I've learned in my research above all else is that in the absence of love and belonging, there's always suffering. So when I hear about your experiences growing up, that's suffering. That's real suffering. And for me, not making the drill team when I was, I think it was in eighth grade, by itself is not a lot. But how my family responded to it. It was like when things changed for me and I didn't feel like I belonged to my family anymore. So I think that I still am trying to figure it out. I don't know that I've interviewed anyone, even spiritual leaders, who have the belonging thing completely nailed because I don't think

it is what we think it is. I don't think that it's having a big posse of friends or having a crew or rolling with a bunch of people. I think I'm still trying to figure it out because I still feel lonely and alone and on the outside of things on a really regular basis. Really? I mean, you're going on a book tour with thousands of people, 15 city tour, millions of fans around the world, and you still feel alone. Yeah, I can feel really lonely. And it's really hard because, you know, you talk about that book tour. I'm severely introverted, super private. And so I love that connection between me and audience, And so I love that connection between me and audience, but it can also be hard on me.

And also I'm talking about things that no one, it's weird to me that people sign up to talk about them, but they're hard topics sometimes. And we laugh and we have fun and we'll sing. But I think what I've learned in doing the research on belonging is that belonging is being a part of something bigger than yourself, but it's also the courage to stand alone and to belong to yourself above all else. And so I think I spend a lot of time belonging to myself, and sometimes that makes other people uncomfortable. And so I think that's hard. I think I do feel, I'm always looking for,

I don't know about you, but I'm always looking for the roadmap. Like I want to find the researcher, storyteller, Christian, lover of all people, fighter of the resistance. I want to find the blueprint of who's ahead of me, believing what I believe in and doing it really well. But there's not really a blueprint sometimes. We're all trying to figure it out. Yeah. We're all trying to figure it out. I don't get to copy anybody. And so it's hard. Yeah. It's still hard.

But here's the thing that has changed everything for me. I belong to me. So even when I feel alone and I wonder like, who's my crew and who are my people? I belong to me for sure. For the first time in my life, maybe. Yeah. And I think we lose ourselves sometimes by trying to belong in groups that we don't fit in. Yeah. You know, I remember being in, you know, the youngest on these sports teams growing up, I was playing on the junior varsity as a freshman or the varsity or whatever. So I was the youngest. And I remember just wanting to fit in just like you did in the, uh, that team. I wanted to fit in. I wanted to feel like they liked me. Like I mattered, like I was a cool kid or whatever. And when they would do things that I didn't really agree with, or they would bully other kids or make

fun of people. It's like, I didn't want to not say anything. You know, I didn't want to stand against them because I wanted to belong. So if I did stand up against them, then that means I was alone. And that was my biggest fear was being alone. Oh yeah. Cause that's what, that's what teams and groups deliver. They deliver this thing that you're not alone. The problem is there's just, I was so shocked to learn in the research that the opposite of belonging is fitting in. Because fitting in is assessing a group of people and thinking, who do I need to be? What do I need to say?

What do I need to wear? How do I need to act? And changing who you are. And true belonging never asks us to change who we are. It demands that we be who we are. asks us to change who we are, it demands that we be who we are. Because if we fit in because how we've changed ourselves, that's not belonging. That's not belonging because you betrayed yourself for other people and that's not sustainable. Yeah. You start to lose yourself.

You start to lose yourself. Exactly what you said. And so I think it's hard. You have to show up as who you are. How do we find out who we are? That's the life's work, right? That's freaking hard. Do you know who you are? Yeah, I do. Who are you?

In what way? If someone just said, who are you, Brene, what would you say? Brene Brown. Mom, partner, researcher, storyteller, Texan. I don't know. I'd ask them how much time they have. Because, you know, the thing is that we want to, when we ask people who they are and we want to know, we'd like those really easy files to put them in, but I'm a complicated person. Are you? Yeah. And so I think I know who I am. What makes you complicated? I don't know if I'm complicated, but I'm complex. You're interesting. I hope so.

Very interesting. Some days, yeah, some days, no. Very interesting. You know, I think what makes me complex is I think what makes everyone complex is the paradoxical nature of people. So, you know, like I speak in public. I love doing that, but I'm incredibly introverted. I'm kind of a traditionalist around things. My kids say yes, ma'am, no, ma'am. But I also raise them to challenge authority every time they get the opportunity to do that. But to be really polite when they're doing it. Yeah. So I think I'm, I'm unapologetically earnest. Like I believe in the goodness of people,

but I believe it's hard work to stay out of fear and stay good. And so I think I understand people. I think I have a lot of empathy, but I'm also not afraid of discomfort. So I think there's just a lot of push and pull. And I think that's true of all of us. I do not like to be defined. I think that's something. Do you?

I was gonna say, I feel like my entire life I didn't wanna be defined as well. They were like, you're gonna be this jock in college. You're going to be like this alcoholic. You're going to be in the frats. All my siblings said this to me. And I was like, no, I'm not. I made a bet with each one of my siblings, $100 each, that I want to have one sip of alcohol in college. Because I was like, I'm going to go against everything you think I'm going to be.

I joined the school musical because they were like, you're just going to do sports. I sang. I played guitar. I salsa danced. I was like, I'm going to do everything different than what people would expect of a tall white man. Right? That's awesome. I was like, I want to be different.

Yeah. And I think in that process, I was like trying to discover who I really was, what I liked, my dreams, what, you know, what was fun for me. Yeah. As opposed to just trying to fit the box and the mold of everyone else. Because you can lose yourself in that fitting in, I think. You can lose yourself in the fitting in, and you can lose yourself in the rebuttal to the fitting in. It's true.

Trying to go against it all, too. Yeah. Yeah. It's really hard. I mean, it's the thing that, it's a quote that is, Braving the Wilderness is all about this, starts with this quote from Maya Angelou, that we're never free until we belong nowhere,

which we belong everywhere, which is nowhere, which is no place at all, which I thought was a terrible quote for many years. And I was like, why are you saying that Dr. Angelou? You're pissing me off. Um, but then I realized really the, and she says the, the cost is high, but the reward is great. And I think that's the thing, that I feel like I belong everywhere I go, no matter where it is or who I'm with, as long as I never betray myself. And the minute I become who you want me to be in order to fit in and make sure people like me is the moment I no longer belong anywhere. And that is hard. I mean, that's a hard practice. That's an everyday practice. Wow. Yeah. Cause I can, I can be whoever you want me to be like that. You're like a chameleon, you said. Oh, I can be totally like a chameleon. Like sometimes it's really funny because like, I always, cause I travel so much. I have all these miles. I always sit in business class and I'm normally the only woman in business

class. Um, every now and then there's one other maybe, which is a conversation we should be having too. Um, but it doesn't matter what dude sits next to me. Like I can talk about whatever that person like, and it's so funny because we'll talk about sports usually first or football or we'll talk about politics and he'll say what do you do and i'll say i study vulnerability and shame oh well huh well i'm gonna play some angry birds uh you know and write that moment like i can just and it's it's not that i know everything about everything it's just so you're saying most men don't want to chime in and learn more about that? No, that's usually, if I want to go to sleep, I'm like, I'm a shame researcher.

What do you do? You're like, okay. Right, right. But I think I can be anything. Yeah, you're adaptable. I'm adaptable. And adaptable is great because anyone that comes to my home or here to work, I can make you feel comfortable. Of course.

But then if I get so adaptable that my goal, my intention of adapting is to make sure you like me, then that's when I betray myself. Yeah. Yeah. What would you say is the time in your life you've been the most alone? High school. Just the whole journey? Yeah, it just sucked.

It does suck. It does. And you know, my daughter just graduated from high school and she had this amazing experience. You know, just incredible experience. And it was so healing to watch. Oh, that's nice. Yeah, and I think it happened because she, I think she had the confidence to put herself out there. And, you know, student council there and, you know, student council

president and the, you know, that kind of, I think because we have a rule at our house that no matter what you belong here, no matter how goofy, awkward, afraid, wrong, it doesn't matter. You belong here. And so I think when we give our kids a platform like that at home, it gives them the courage to take risks outside of home. Does that make sense? Because they feel safe coming back. No matter what happens, they always have a place to come home to. And I grew up in a house where it was very chaotic. I'm the oldest of four.

And fitting in and being cool was the most important thing. So I think without that pressure, I probably would have never tried out for that drill team. But in my world growing up, you only did two things. You were a cheerleader or you were on the drill team and preferably you married a running back or a quarterback. I mean, that was the way it went. And so for me, I probably would have been like president of the French club.

You know, I would have been in debate or those kinds of things. The newspaper. Oh, for sure. Yeah, yeah. like president of the French club. You know, I would have been in debate or those kind of things. The newspaper. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Photographer of the yearbook. Yeah.

But those things did not have a lot of value. Really? No. Your parents didn't instill that as something credible or worthwhile? No. It's just cool was the number one value at home. Cool. Lots of friends.

Popular. Yeah. And that just wasn't my, I wasn't that thing. You know, I was, yeah, I wasn't. And so what I did is I just started drinking, smoking weed, hanging out with, you know, I found, I found a place to be, you know, cool. And yeah, that just goes bad fast. Yeah. Yeah. Have you ever had a conversation with your parents about this? Oh, yeah. We've talked about all of it. You have? Yeah. You've let it go.

You've processed it all. Oh, yeah, because they read my books as I write them, and they're like, this is exactly what every parent wants, a child who grows up to be a shame researcher. Right. But, no, that's the miracle of my parents. But no, they just, that's the miracle of my parents. Like my parents, they've taught me the best thing about parenting that anyone I think could ever know, which is it doesn't end when your kids leave. Like they keep growing and exploring and, you know, and however hard it was for me not being able to be,

you know, we did not do vulnerability growing up. Really? No, no, no, no. Like, yeah, like our family motto was literally lock and load. Like get ready, you know, family trips. You're in the car for five hours. That's all six of us. You really have to go to the bathroom. But the rest stop is on the other side of the highway. We're not pulling over. Like, suck it up. Hold it. Like, we were tough. We were tough. Like, we'd fall down and get hurt. You know, my dad would say, like, I got bigger scratches than that on my eyeball. You know, like, yeah, like we were tough. And so, and we were, and we were taught to outrun vulnerability. We were taught to suck it up, soldier on, get her done. And so however hard that was for me growing up, imagine what it was like for my parents in the 50s. You know, my dad, who was the youngest of six, his dad died when he was 16, you know. Was he able to process that or no? No, he just did the next thing you do. Played football, played college ball.

Yeah. My mom, who's my grandmother, who I named my daughter after, was an alcoholic. And she was drunk every other day of my mom an alcoholic. And she was drunk every other day of my mom's life. But she was the most amazing person in the world. But everyone knew she was an alcoholic. So my mom wasn't allowed to have friends at her house growing up because it was the 50s and she was divorced. And so my mom became the head of the drill team and the valedictorian. And so however hard it was for me growing up having to try to outrun vulnerability, it was a million times harder on my parents.

And they did what they knew how to do. And they loved us as much as they could love us with the tools they had. And so I don't have, I think the hard part comes from people that I've interviewed my whole life where the parents don't grow and change. And they see anything a child trying to do differently as criticism of what they did. As opposed to my parents who lean in and say, tell me more about that.

I have a funny story. You ever hear a funny story about my dad? Yeah. It's great. So we do a lot of choice theory with my daughter and my son. And so choice, my husband's a pediatrician. So like we know a lot about child development from our, just from school. And so when Ellen was little, we used to do this thing where we would say, you know, you have two choices.

Like, Lewis, you have two choices. You can either hand me the water. I'm going to have to take it from you. What is your choice? So that if you decide not to hand it to me and I have to take it, it's not my fault. That was your choice, right? And so one night I was talking to Ellen and we were at my dad's house in San Antonio and I was like, Ellie, you need to turn off Dora the Explorer. It's time to go to bed. And she's like, and I said, Ellen, you have two choices. You can get up and turn off the TV or I'm going to get it up and turn it off for you. And if I have to get up

and turn off the TV, you're going to lose privileges to watch it tomorrow. And that's your choice. Yeah, that's your choice. So do you know, and I would hate that for you, but that will be your choice. And my dad was sitting in the recliner next to me. He's like, ah, sis, what are you raising a hostage negotiator? I was like, dad. And he's like, seriously, Renee, we had four of y'all. We didn't have time for that. Yeah. So the next day I come home, I'm visiting friends in San Antonio and he's like, seriously, Rene, we had four of y'all. We didn't have time for that. So the next day I come home, I'm visiting friends in San Antonio,

and he's watching Ellen, and he's in the driveway. It's like 110 degrees in San Antonio, and he's sweating. He's like, Ellen, you have two choices. You can either put the bicycle up, or I'm going to have to put it up for you. And the second one's a dumbass choice. So I was like, wow, you're so close. You're getting there. You're getting there.

You're getting there. My parents are amazing in that that way that like, they're learning and changing. So I think it's harder when parents say, I'm done. What you got was what you got. No apologies, no change, take it or leave it. And if you do it differently with your own kids, you're a sucker. Wow. And I think we see that a lot. Yeah, we do. I mean, what should parents be learning about how they can grow? I mean, how can they start to be aware? Because I think it starts with being aware.

Yeah, for sure. Of what they know and what they don't know and being receptive to learning something different, which is really hard to do. It's hard. You've had these habits for so long. So that's the first thing. And I want to dive into the lack of vulnerability with what's happening in Charlottesville right now as well. Because I know you did something on that this morning. So I guess how can parents listen to this and be aware and be willing to move forward in a different way of learning something new when they're so stuck in their ways, potentially, that it's worked for them to this point to get to where they're at.

You know, I think, I believe this with my whole heart. I believe that 99.9% of parents are truly waking up every day and doing the very best they can with what they have. I don't think there are a lot of parents who wake up and maliciously try to screw up their kids or hurt their kids or belittle or shame their kids. I think we're doing the best we can with what we have. And so I think to let go of the idea that if I have done something that I could have done better or that I could learn from, that I have to just come down. People defend their parenting like they're defending their lives because it's such a shame minefield. Yeah.

You know, I mean, a great example is the work you're doing around men and vulnerability. I cannot tell you the number of fathers and the hundreds, if not thousands of fathers I've interviewed that said, I shamed my son every time he was vulnerable. Yeah. I put him down. I made fun of them. I hit him every time he was vulnerable. And now I look back and I know it's because that's the way I was raised or I was afraid he'd be soft and get

hurt at school or, you know, whatever the thing is. And so I think for parents, it's about understanding, giving yourself permission to not have been, I'm not perfect. Like, you know, like I've never not been a researcher and a parent. My husband's a pediatrician. Our kids will be in therapy. You're right. And the reason why I think that'll be so successful is there's only two kind of kids you raise. Kids who will ask for help when they need it are kids who won't.

And that's as good as it gets is to raise a kid who will ask for help. Yeah, I never asked for help. Yeah. I was always suffering inside. Yeah, right. And I always felt shameful, help. Yeah. I never asked for help. Yeah. I was always suffering inside. Yeah. Right. And I always felt shameful, guilty. And I just, my way of asking was being angry, resentful, mad, hitting people in sports or outside of sports. Cause that's all I knew. I'll tell you a story about a guy that inter that I interviewed very, one of the first men I interviewed when I went

from interviewing all women to men was a guy who said, I said, what is shame for you? And he used the P-U-S-S-Y word, which is like just synonymous with shame and male culture, right? And he said, I'll never forget the day that changed my life. He said, I was at football practice. I was a freshman in high school. And he said, the coach yelled, get on the line. And I didn't want to get on the line, the line of scrimmage, in case people don't know. I know you know, but he asked me to

make sure I walked through all the sports metaphors with him. And he said, I was afraid to get on the line because I know, you know, it's where people crash into each other. And so I must have had fear on my face because my coach looked at me and said, don't be a P-U-S-S-Y, get on the line. And he said, that's the day that I learned that the way you deal with that is you change that fear into rage. And he said, and I just plowed over the guy across from me. just plowed over the guy across from me. And then he said, then I spent the next 20 years plowing over my wife, my children, my colleagues, the people who worked for me. He said, that's what I did with my fear. Yeah.

I mean, I can definitely relate. Yeah. I mean, I remember being picked last on a team once when it was a co-ed sport. We were playing dodgeball on the playground. I think it was third or fourth grade. And there was two captains, two guys, and they were picking one at a time, right? And they pick all the guys and I'm like, okay, I'm going to be the last guy chosen. But then they go and pick all the girls. And then, then I'm going to pick my name. I'm just by default, the last pickers team. And so as a, as a, you know, a boy trying to fit in in third, fourth grade,

it was devastating. And I told myself in that moment, I was like, never again, will I be picked last at any sport? I'll do whatever it takes. I'm going to be a machine. I'm going to train for six hours a night. I'm going to, you know, take no prisoners mentality and just, I mean, I dominated on that dodgeball game that day. I was just like throwing the ball, like just diving everywhere. I was like, never again. Did you ever get picked last again? Never got picked last again. Right.

And it helped me achieve, you know, was All-State in multiple sports, was All-American in two sports. I broke world records. I played professional football. I play on the USA handball team now. And it guided me towards achieving these things. But it left me feeling very unfulfilled every time I achieved them or anytime we lose. It was like an attack on my life. Every loss we ever had on a sport, it was like my life was at stake and I felt like I was worthless because if

I didn't win, that meant no one was going to accept me or I wasn't good enough or I was going to be picked last or something. So I would take it so personally when I wouldn't win. And then I would take it out of my family, my girlfriends, my friends, everything. And I didn't know how to communicate. And I'm still learning, you know, I'm still imperfect every day, but it's like, I wasn't even aware. There was never information about how to connect or how to communicate and feel like it was okay or you're allowed to. Because anytime you try to talk about any vulnerabilities as a guy growing up for me, it was like you're P-U-S-S-Y. Yeah.

Don't be a little girl. Don't be a B-I-T-C-H. Yeah. You know, all these things. And so I think it's very hard for me and especially for a lot of men who grew up to stand alone and feel like they belong in an isolated world if they're not going to join a group that's going to make fun of them or put other people down. So how do we stand alone when we're not introverted or we want to be around other people? How can men communicate better or feel like it's okay to be vulnerable? Because we were talking before about how most men that I know

played sports with would never watch the power of vulnerability TED talk or they would never read, you know, books from you or Oprah that I'm aware of because they would talk bad about, you know, female leaders trying to talk about vulnerability. Yeah. You know, they would say that's soft, that's weak. Yeah. You know, I don't watch that stuff. I don't read that stuff. And really that's the stuff we need the most, in my opinion. And I think it's changing.

I think I told you earlier that I think 50% of the readers of Daring Greatly are men and the vast majority of leaders who bring me into organizations are men. And I'll tell you, I'll tell you why. Wise men. I can, I hope, I can flip it for you on a dime. Yeah. So it used to take me when men would say, this is how the call would go. Hey, we'd love for you to come in and work with our leadership team. We saw your TED talk. We thought it was great. Are you available? And I'd say, sure. What do you want me to talk about? And they'd say anything but vulnerability and shame. And I would say, why? So what do you want me to talk about? If I don't talk about vulnerability? And they'd say courage. And then I'd say, okay.

Then I would try to spend like a half an hour explaining the relationship between vulnerability and courage. Yeah. Because all men want to be brave. Isn't vulnerability courage? Vulnerability is courage. Isn't vulnerability power? Yes. I have to ask one question to flip the whole thing.

It's this. Vulnerability is defined as uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure. Can you name one act of courage that you've ever been involved in or that you've ever even witnessed that did not involve uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure? And it's a loaded question because I know the answer is no, because I've asked it thousands and thousands. I've stood in front of Navy SEALs and Special Forces military personnel and said, give me an example. I want you to try hard to give me an example of courage that didn't require vulnerability. And in 10 years, I've never had a single person be able to come up. I've even had two guys come up to me who were in the military that said, we're going to think about it and get with you.

And I said, oh, my God, I said, do it. I would love it. Give me an example of courage, even on the field that doesn't involve vulnerability. Like if you, if it, if you think you're being brave and it doesn't involve risk or uncertainty, you're not being that brave. If you know how, yeah, if you know how it's going to turn out, it's not courage. And so in that moment, people go, but I want to be brave and I don't want to be vulnerable. And I'm like, therein lies the great dilemma of our time. Yeah. No one wants to be uncomfortable.

No one wants to be vulnerable and everyone wants to be brave. And it just doesn't work like that. Right. And anytime we new we've got to we've got to be uncomfortable yeah it's vulnerable i mean when i ask people what is vulnerability people would say initiating sex with my wife uh sending my child out the door who thinks he's going to make the first chair in orchestra and knowing he's probably not going to make the orchestra at all. Getting fired. Starting my own business. Saying I love you first in a relationship. Trying to get pregnant after my first miscarriage. I mean, like, vulnerability is, it's uncertainty.

It's not knowing, but doing it anyway because it's the brave thing to do. And so the problem is, I think, that the greatest shame trigger for men is do not be perceived as weak. And in our culture, we believe that vulnerability is weakness. So you don't have to skip too many steps before you go, hey, it's shaming to be vulnerable. too many steps before you go, hey, it's shaming to be vulnerable. And so men do two things in the face of shame, pissed off or shut down. Put on a mask. Put on a mask. Yeah. And so what we're learning and what people are starting to see very quickly is you cannot be a courageous leader if you're not vulnerable. If you're not willing to have hard, uncomfortable conversations, be a courageous leader if you're not vulnerable. If you're not willing to have hard, uncomfortable conversations, give hard feedback, receive hard feedback, excavate issues like Charlottesville

that no one wants to talk about. Like discomfort is the great enemy of courage. Like my motto is, we say it here all the time, choose courage over comfort because you can't have both. And if you think you're being brave and you're super comfortable, you're not being that brave. Is there an area of your life right now where you don't feel you're courageous enough

or something you've been wanting to say to people that you haven't said fully or holding back on? I think the Charlottesville Facebook Live today was hard. Was it? Yeah. Oh, yes. My voice was shaking. Was it? Yeah. Oh, yes.

My voice was shaking. I was shaking. In fact, we got here today and we knew we were going to film us together, but we were going to film some other stuff first. I said, I just need to do the Facebook Live because I don't want to lose my courage. And I think that's hard because when you talk about race and privilege and power, first of all, I'm going to get like, you know, death threats and people are going to say, you know, all that stuff. You're wrong either way. You're

wrong either way. Right. But the ability that I have to opt out of speaking out about it because it doesn't supposedly affect me is the definition of privilege. So I don't believe we can opt out of it. And I know that I'm white, upper middle class, really educated, Judeo-Christian, straight. I know that I've got blinders on that no matter how hard I work, I will say something that is not right. And people will come back and they will fire off against me around it. And it will hurt. But I'd rather take the chance. And it hurting and learning. But it's scary to talk about this stuff today.

Do you think? I think. It's really hard. And I try to come from a place of like super authentic and loving of all humanity all the time. Yeah. I was raised by, you know, I had two great parents. But my mom and two older sisters were really the ones who came back to me after they would go on a date with a guy. They'd be like,

Lewis, never do this on a date. You know, always treat women this way. So I've always tried my best. You know, I'm imperfect in so many ways and constantly make mistakes with people. Yeah, me too. But most of my team, I was telling you before, most of my team is women. I think 80% of my team is women. And they get, and they get paid more than the men on my team is women. I think 80% of my team is women and they get, and they get paid more than the men on my team, not because they're women, but because they produce better results. And I, my, my business is based on results. I've got people of different ethnicities. I've got people of different sexual orientations. And I had someone tell me last week, they said, you know, white male privilege is a thing.

And I think you need to incorporate more values into your organization so that you're not living from this white male privilege place. And I was thinking, I was hurt by this because I get it. I'm white. There's nothing I can do based on the way I was born. There's nothing I can do. I can't change the way I was born, but I can choose to determine how I want to live and how I want to show up in the world.

So I'm constantly trying to be mindful of speaking out more. Yeah. Because I think that's what a lot of my friends are saying about Charlottesville. If white men

aren't opening up and talking about this more, it's not going to come across to the people that are, I guess, marching with torches, which just blows my mind that this is happening still. It blows me away that this is happening.

I don't even understand it. I'm like, I'm blown away. I don't know. And I'm just like, how can I be a better, more impactful in this place? And how can we get rid of this? How can we end it? Do you have the answer? I don't know.

It just blows my mind. No, and I think we need to do a lot more listening and hear from the people who have been affected by this the longest. I think we do need to speak out. I think white silence around these issues is death. I mean, I just think it's terrible. I don't think we can come in and save the day. I think we need to come in with humility and curiosity and say, this is what I think. And I want to learn. And if I make

mistakes, let me know. And I'll try to make them better. And I think we need to take responsibility. it's easier sometimes for me in my life to just keep asking questions, just keep reading, just keep, just keep talking about it. And when I am so uncomfortable that I don't want to do it anymore, just to keep doing it because to remember that my discomfort is, you know, that's my privilege. And so I don't know that there's an answer other than discussions. And I'm not, I wasn't surprised about Charlottesville, really. I just, really, it just blows my mind.

Maybe I'm just ignorant to that. I don't think it's about being ignorant to it. It doesn't, you know, I've studied shame for 15 years and fear. Like, that's what it looks like. Yeah. What do you think these individuals marching like this are most shameful of in their own life? Why are they so protective? I would never venture to guess. I don't know, but I do think it's about powerlessness.

They feel powerless. Yeah. And I think that people go, oh my God. Okay. So the white guy in the khakis and the fancy polo shirt feels powerless and cry me a river. I think we don't give a shit about that at our own peril. Not caring about it and not trying to understand it. I'm not taking it on my load, for sure. I mean, I'm not going to add it to my'm not taking it on my load for sure. I mean, I'm not going to add it to my back. I got other stuff to do. But I am going to try to understand it because I can't imagine a way through what needs to happen over the next decade that does not involve

understanding pain. There's this incredible James Baldwin quote that says, now I understand why people hold onto their hate so stubbornly because once they let it go, there's nothing but pain. Um, and I think we, we dismiss and don't care about that pain at our own peril because pain will make itself known. It will not be dismissed. It's not an affect or an emotion that dissipates when it's ignored. Yeah. Well, I think this is fascinating you're saying this because I never wanted to feel the emotional pain. It was so hard to go through.

I got a breakup with a girlfriend. I didn't know how to deal with the emotional loss of any type of pain or suffering as a man. And I remember being in the fetal position my freshman year of college for days, sobbing in my dorm room, just curled up in a ball because I, you know, a relationship ended and I was so sad to be alone and I didn't have this person in my life anymore. And I would take it out on the football field. I was like, I don't want to feel this type of emotional pain. So how can I inflict as much physical pain on myself and other people to get it out? And it's hard to switch that off and just be like this loving, vulnerable man after you're on the football field, like inflicting pain on other people because you're

supposed to. No. And I think whether we play football or not, we're much better at causing pain than we are feeling pain. You don't want to feel it. No, you don't. And so we cause it and we hurt other people. Yeah, we do. And so, and if you look at leadership, whether you're an organization leading a country, leading a family as a parent, one the cheapest easiest ways to lead is to give people someone to hate and blame for your own your misery and so we have to really watch that in our country right now so if we all you have to do when people are in uncertainty and fear is to give them someone to blame and give them a reason to blame them and then step back and watch everything just fall apart. And so I think that's happening right now in our country.

And so we have to push away the rhetoric. We have to own our pain. And let me tell you, it's not like you tell that story about the football field and it's so prophetic because every crisis we're up against right now, almost without exception, is about our inability, our unwillingness to deal with pain. If you look at the opiod addiction right now across, unwillingness to deal with pain. If you look at the opiod addiction right now across, you know, somewhere beginning with physicians sent the message, there's no reason for you to hurt at all. Here's a pain reliever. Here's a pain reliever, you know, and things are not going well in your life. Well, here's a way to discharge hate and pain that'll make you feel better. Like, a way to discharge hate and pain that'll make you feel better.

By drinking or by smoking or sex or whatever. Medicated, addicted, in debt, and obese Americans in history. Like our tolerance for discomfort is zero. Soft. Yeah. Yeah. So here's the irony. Soft.

What we're taught in football. Don't be soft. Don't be soft. So it's actually our inability to be vulnerable that makes us weak. Yeah, I agree. One of the things I talk about and try to express to as many people as possible is to actually put yourself through pain and discomfort every single day. I try to do this physically through working out to try to push myself farther than I want to, where I'm like emotionally want to cry. Yeah. Because I just know by conditioning myself to feel pain every single day, that when a lot of stuff comes my way, I'm capable of taking it on and processing the emotions as opposed to being like, I just need to drink. I need this. I need that. I've never been

drunk in my life, so I don't even know what that feels like. But it's hard, especially as for myself, I'll speak for myself as a man, it's hard growing up, learning how to deal with those type of emotions. It's really challenging. There's no class in school that says, okay, when you're feeling this way, Lewis, here's how you're supposed to act. It's vulnerability. Yeah, here's how you're supposed to act. Here's the step-by-step process. Like there's no process that we're taught unless it's our parents or we seek it out. And it's not modeled because I think parents fear kind of soft boys turning into soft men.

Yeah. Who, you know, I remember interviewing this guy who was in his 70s and I said, what is shame to you? And he's like, shame is being the kid you can shove up against the lockers. Yeah. Yeah. Shame is being the kid that you shove up? Yeah, being the kid that you can shove up against the lockers.

Yeah, yeah. You know, and it's like, but really we've got to shift it and we've got to shift it. I think it starts parenting, school, athletics is huge. Huge. I mean, it's a really, I mean, let me do this. Okay, let's do this sports thing.

Do it. Okay, ready? Okay. Two football teams. You're going to place a bet. Okay. Both of them have hurt quarterbacks. Both of them are playing, well, both of them have hurt quarterbacks.

This team over here recognizes its vulnerability and it's going to put in a second stream quarterback. This team ignores its vulnerability and pretends like it doesn't exist. Who are you betting on? Hmm. Depends on the injury. Oh, Jesus. Hey, because I played hurt my whole life, you know.

So it depends. I would say that most of us would say you are more, you are less likely to win if you do not acknowledge your vulnerabilities as. So even if you play your quarterback, you got to make sure your line is ready. Exactly. And you got to switch the plays up. If his arm's hurt, you're going to pass it off. You're going to do less things. Yeah, exactly. So give him more time in the hole, whatever you're going to do. The team that acknowledges their vulnerabilities is going to be more successful. And is adaptable to change. Right. Is going to be more successful. Right.

Yes. Right. So why do we think as men to pretend like you're not vulnerable makes you the most vulnerable. Yeah. Makes you the most susceptible. I mean, we just have data. I mean, just like I could fill this whole room with data about you don't get to opt out. Let me ask you this.

Do you know a guy in the world, you know a lot of guys, right, who can say I've existed at this point in my life without being uncertain, at risk, or emotionally exposed? No. Right. You can't not do vulnerability. Yeah. But you can pretend like you don't. Then you're not making choices over the behaviors you engage in when you're vulnerable. Yeah.

Then you don't know when you're vulnerable. And then you're acting nutty. And I think you pay major prices. Oh, yeah. When you don't, when you're unaware or when you're not acting like you're aware. Yeah. You just act like everything's fine or you don't need help. You don't need support.

You don't need to address a situation or grieve or whatever it is. That's when you get hurt the most. It's when you get hurt the most. It's when you suffer the most. And I think that's when the most anger, frustration, rage, and I guess divergent happens. And I was watching this video last night where they were documenting the whole process of the Charlottesville thing. I think Vice was doing this. And the person interviewing like the leader, one of the guys was like the leader of the marches or whatever, was saying about how, you know, this is our land and our forefathers were whites and it belongs to us. It's like this whole thing that it belongs to a

certain race or something. I can't, it just blows my mind. It's like- Forgetting clearly about the Native Americans who were here before we took it. Right, exactly. But I mean, it just blows my mind that all this comes back to like feeling like we need to belong, I guess, and protect what was ours or what's our right, something. It all comes back to identity and belonging.

Belonging, yeah. But underneath identity and belonging, there's something that we don't talk about and it comes down to power. It comes down to power. I mean, I think what we're witnessing is power over his last stand. And that's what I love. You write about how I think most men who come from this place feel like power is only one person and one group can have the power as opposed to we can spread the power throughout the world. Like it's a pepperoni pizza. Right.

Like if I give Lewis a little power, I'm going to have less. So make sure I'm comfortable giving it to you. Right. When it's not. Don't give any slices away. Don't give slices away. Hold all the. And so what we see around the world right now, not just with this administration, but globally, is we see the concept of power over making a last stand.

And it is not going to work. What is going to work moving forward with the completely devastatingly difficult problems we have at hand is power with and power to, power with each other, collective power. The things that are killing us right now, we're not going to solve by ourselves as a nation. They're global issues. We need global solutions. We need everyone at the table for them. But that is a really, I mean, we are at a huge turning point in history that should not be minimized or misunderstood. I mean, for the first time ever, the problems that challenge us, challenge us the most, are problems that will not be solved with national solutions. They are global problems that require global solutions and collaboration. And for a lot of

people, that's really scary. Hard. Hard. Hard. What about us? What about me? You know, and last stands, you know about last stands. Last stands are violent. Yeah. Last stands are fueled by desperation. Whatever it takes. And fear and whatever it takes. Risking it all. Risking it all. And so what you're seeing right now are people risking it all. Showing up at these marches with freaking tiki torches. I mean, like, it's not even started around the Polynesian, how the Polynesian people feel about their tiki torches. But I mean, like, with tiki torches, basically, basically mimicking the Ku Klux Klan.

It's so crazy. But without sheets, this is power over's last stand. And these folks are nostalgic for a time that never existed. Where they thought they had the power. Yeah. What they're interested in is it was so much better back then. And what they're not saying is when people knew their place. And so it's going to get harder.

when people knew their place. And so it's going to get harder. If you had a message to give to our nation's leader, what would you say? Roosevelt said that the presidency, above all else, is a place for moral leadership. And I believe there are lines that we do not cross, they're morality lines etched in dignity about people's inherent worth, and we should never cross those lines. And they have been crossed so many times around immigration, around women, around building walls, and that at the very least, we can argue about policy. We can argue about whether, you know, social security lock boxes or what should we do around taxation, healthcare. Those are important things. But at the very least, a person in that office

should be a moral leader. And that line should never be crossed because when you cross it it says so much more about your integrity than it does about the people you're attacking yeah yeah if you had a uh a microphone and everyone had headphones on was listening to the end of this microphone and you got a message to share to all the men in the world within 60 seconds or less. And all the men were going to put on headphones and hear a message from you. It's very Orwellian. I like it. And you got one chance to say something to these men from all over the world.

And they could all understand English and they understood you. You're taking care of all the logistics. All the logistics. They got it on. It's not fuzzy. There's no Wi-Fi signal. Everyone's got access to hearing your voice for 60 seconds. All the men and all the women are actually standing by listening as well.

What would you say to all the men of the world in general? Golly. You know, I wouldn't want to screw that up. Let me think. Yeah. I think I would say that vulnerability is not weakness. It's about the willingness to show up and be seen when you can't control the outcome. And it is actually our greatest measure of courage. So show up in an authentic way and let us see your hearts because we know how lonely you actually are. Wow. Yeah.

Men are lonely. I mean, it's really, men are lonely. It's really hard. Yeah. But I would not, I think that's, I don't think I would say anything differently to women either. But I would not, I think that's, I don't think I would say anything differently to women either. You know, because I think there is certainly, you know, for women the greatest shame trigger is do it all, do it perfectly and never let them see you sweat, look perfect, work perfect. In all areas.

In all areas. The workforce, the home. Yeah, be smoking hot and brilliant and this, but don't ever look like you're putting any effort toward it. It's so easy, right? It is. I don't understand why my sisters have not nailed that. But I think so. It's hard for women to be vulnerable because it's less than perfect. You know, so I don't mean women are wearing masks.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's terrible because then the two collide. And you see in a lot of partnerships, I mean, I've seen it so much in my research, this contract we have where I'll stay smoking hot and awesome. And, you know, money and provider shame is such a real thing for men. And, you know, you do this and this is our contract and we're both in straight jackets until we die. Yeah. And so, like.

How do we remove those jackets? We just start getting real with each other. We just start being really honest. And we see each other. You know, we really see each other. Yeah. Wow. I've got a few minutes left. So I'm going to be mindful of these questions.

I know. Let's go now. I could ask you, I could talk to you for hours. Is there anything you feel ashamed of still? Oh, I have moments for sure. Like I will have moments of, but now I know, I mean, it's, we can't ever get rid of shame. What we can do is develop resilience to shame. So when it happens and it washes over that warm wash that makes you feel small and not enough, when that washes over me, rather than yelling at my kids or just decimating myself with hateful language, you know, and like, you're stupid or you're not, you know, now when it washes over me, I'm like, okay, I'm in shame. Don't talk, text, or type.

What happened? So there are still, I mean, I still have triggers around it. I still have triggers around it. I still think it's probably the same. Motherhood, trying to, you know, do everything and balance everything and be where I'm supposed to be and that's still hard sometimes. You know?

What's the process that someone should take on when they feel shame, anger, rage? Well, shame is shame. I can really help you with is first and foremost, talk to someone, talk to yourself, like you talk to someone you love. So if you really, if you, if something happens and you're overwhelmed with shame, the first thing you need to do is get back on your emotional feet. Don't talk, text, or type to anyone because the first, one of the things we want to do is push that out on other people I'm good at that. Yeah, I'm guilty of that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah So just get into a dark quiet place and then talk to yourself like you talk to someone you love Just be like Duke. It's okay. Like you screwed this up you what you said was super hurtful

You're gonna have to circle back and clean that stuff up up. You, what you said was super hurtful. You're going to have to circle back and clean that stuff up, but give yourself a break here. Just like I would talk to Ellen or Charlie if they made a mistake, then reach out and talk to someone about what you're feeling. Shame cannot survive being spoken. So if you, if I call you and I'm like, oh my God, Lewis, I'm in a shame storm. You're not going to believe what happened. And you listen to me and you respond empathically or empathetically with something like, oh my God, I've been there or, oh God, I get it. I'm sorry. That sucks. Shame can't hold on because shame can't survive empathy. I a hundred percent agree with that. A quick example for 25 years, I held onto the shame of being sexually abused by a man that I didn't know. And I was like, if anyone knew this

about me, you know, my life was over. That's how shameful I felt, embarrassed and, you know, abused I felt from the experience. And when I finally had the courage to share it, it took me, you know, a couple of years to share it over and over many, many times. I don't feel shameful. Like I can talk about it openly and freely without feeling embarrassed, without feeling weak, soft, vulnerable, because, you know, I own the experience and it's not something I have to hold in and like rate and react through rage. Cause I can just share it and I can communicate as opposed to hold into this. And I think whenever I face anything that I'm scared to talk about now,

I just say, well, how can I talk about it? How can I journal? I like to journal first. Oh, that's huge. So no one can shame me, right? No one wants to feel that. No, that's huge. Yeah.

And then I start having conversations. And when we have ownership over that shame, I feel like it doesn't own us anymore. I mean, so that's a perfect example. First of all, it's devastating that that happens. It happens to boys. One in six. Yeah, and they think that's an underestimate.

They think that that. No, one in six is what's known. Yeah, and they think it's probably double that because of our culture and inability of boys to speak safely, even to their own parents around it. I never told anyone. Right. My parents don't know. Right. So here's the example exactly. You talk about it now. So when, so two choices, you own your story, you get to write the ending. You don't own the story. The story owns

you. Yeah. So then you talk about it now. So shame can't hold on, but then people see and hear you talking about it and it gives them permission to talk about it. That's why shame cannot hold on to being spoken. So your courage to talk about that deflates shame. It takes it out of the air. It's like filtering poison out of water. Because you've got the courage to speak up. I mean, and that's how it works.

And that's how all of this works is that we own our story or it owns us. Final two questions. I know I've got to hurry up. Okay. This is called the three truths. I ask everyone at the end of the interviews, three truths. You've written many books, you know, all number one New York time bestsellers. Let's imagine it's your last day many, many years from now. Yeah. You get to write the story when it's your last day on your own terms, right? You've written every book you've ever wanted to write.

Okay. You've said everything you've always wanted to say. You've done every video, interview, whatever it is, you've achieved anything you set out to do. Okay. But for whatever reason, it's all erased and gone. So no one has access to any of this information. Okay. And you're there with all the people you care about.

And you have a piece of paper and a pen and you get to write down three things you know to be true about everything you've experienced in life. This is all people would have of your message left behind. What would you say are the three truths for you? Steve, Ellen, and Charlie were my greatest true loves for sure. After that, everything seems

small. Love takes courage. Be brave. Let yourself be seen. And don't wait for the grownups to get there. That's the myth. We don't know what we're doing. We're just putting our best foot forward. So if you have an idea or an answer, go for it. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool.

That's cool. Yeah. Before I ask the final question, I want to make sure you guys go get the book. I'm scared for the final question. I'm like, cut. Let's go. Wrap it up. The final question's easy. But this is Braving the Wilderness, the Quest for True Belonging and the Courage to Stand Alone.

Make sure you guys go get this book. It's going to be a game changer. Highly recommend it. I'll have it linked up everywhere on the site and below this video. Very powerful. You're an incredible writer. And I just know this is going to serve so many people who feel alone in the world of uncertainty. And I want to acknowledge you, Brene, for being an incredible gift to the world with

all of your imperfections and the beautifulness that you have within you. I think it takes so much courage to share these things the way you've been doing them for years, decades. You've been opening up and talking about it and to bring it out to a public platform and continue to dive in deeper. I acknowledge you because the weight that it carries of listening to everyone else's pain, as I've started to open up about mine, I just feel the weight of everyone now sharing with me. I can only imagine the weight that you get to carry and are privileged to carry because of the work you're getting to do and the impact you have on so many people

who feel, who are suffering, who feel like there is no hope, there is no way out, who are stuck in all areas of their life. You give people such inspiration and tools and education on how to transform their life. So I acknowledge you for all the work that you do. Oh, thank you. You're welcome. You're welcome. This is the final question.

That's amazing. You're welcome. It's my pleasure. Yeah. The final question is simple. It's what's your definition of greatness? To own your story and love yourself through that process. That's greatness to me.

I hope today's episode inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a rundown of today's show with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me as well as ad-free listening experience, make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel

on Apple Podcast. If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend over on social media or text a friend. Leave us a review over on Apple Podcast and let me know what you learned over on our social media channels at Lewis Howes. I really love hearing the feedback from you and it helps us continue to make the show better. And if you want more inspiration from our world-class guests and content to learn how to improve the quality of your life, then make sure to sign up for the Greatness Newsletter better. And if you want more inspiration from our world-class guests and content to learn how to

improve the quality of your life, then make sure to sign up for the Greatness Newsletter and get it delivered right to your inbox over at greatness.com slash newsletter. And if no one has told you today, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now, it's time to go out there and do something great.