The School of Greatness - Esther Perel: Use This Simple Trick to Heal & Deepen Your Relationships EP 1291

Episode Date: July 11, 2022

Psychotherapist and New York Times bestselling author Esther Perel is recognized as one of today’s most insightful voices on modern relationships. Fluent in nine languages, she helms a therapy practice in New York City and serves as an organizational consultant for Fortune 500 companies around the world. Her celebrated TED Talks have garnered more than 40 million views and her bestselling books, Mating in Captivity and The State of Affairs, are global phenomena translated into nearly 30 languages. Esther is also an executive producer and host of the popular podcasts Where Should We Begin? and How’s Work?Her latest project is Where Should We Begin - A Game of Stories.In this episode, you will learn:How sexuality is only a piece of eroticism.Why humor is so important to heal your relationship.The difference of being aware and feeling your dread.Why play is one of the keys to success.For more, go to lewishowes.com/1291For Esther's previous episodes:The Secret to Desire in a Long Term Relationship: https://link.chtbl.com/1236-podRed Flags To Avoid In Relationships & How To Find Real Love: https://link.chtbl.com/1277-podThe Power of Erotic Intelligence: https://link.chtbl.com/732-pod

The relationship becomes the holder of all that stress and that is part of the divorce rate at the moment and the weight that has felt on the relationship. It's not just people didn't get along. Welcome to the School of Greatness. former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. What is the main thing you would recommend

people work on themselves, whether in transition of relationships or in a relationship? Is there one thing that they could always be working on to improve themselves, to be better for other relationships? If their entire story about the relationship that just ended is about what the other person did wrong to them, something is missing in the story. Yeah. That doesn't mean that the other person may not have done things that were hurtful to them. But add to it, who were you in this relationship?

What role did you play? What did you see that you didn't want to pay attention to? What things do you wish you didn't want to pay attention to? What things do you wish you had done differently? What pieces do you wish that your partner had seen and accepted from you differently? Where did you wish you would have said less and where did you wish you would have said more? What do you learn from this relationship?

And if when you say what you learn is just that i want to make sure that the next person is right gives me what i need you know or is less of this or more of that you know who do you want to be in the next relationship how are you going to add value a relationship is a story of many people it's not even a story just of two. Who was too involved in your relationship? Who was not involved enough? So there's a cast of characters in a relationship. And it's all those questions that you want to ask when you are in transition. What, I think that's it.

But they are both directions. I think that's it. But they are both directions. If you find yourself with a spotlight only on the other person and you in a passive-receptive stance, you're missing a whole pan of the story. Yeah, and you're probably more of the problem of the relationship than them, if you're just focusing on them probably. A relationship is not about this person and that person. The relationship is what happens in

between. This is my view on relationships. It's not an essentialist view, this is this personality and that personality. It's the dynamic. You can have a dynamic with a certain partner. You've had dynamics with certain partners and of course it was just the right fit between the match and the ignition and so you had enough inside of you to react with a certain kind of let's put your jealousy but you may meet another person who acts differently and you may still have a little bit of that jealousy inside of you but it doesn't get activated because this person is responding very differently to you and when you say where were you they don't say why do you always have to ask me that question they just say i just want to do this it's all good darling i'm right here i've got you back and then you don't

go into your chest pain you know pain So this is very important to understand. We are not the same person with different partners. We may have certain things that come out depending on what is being sent over to us. So the relationship is a figure eight. It's what I do that makes you do something, that then makes you react to me a certain way, that then draws that out of me, that draws that out of you,

and each one actually creates the other. And when you get that view of relationships, when you come out and you're in transition, you say to yourself, let's say I was with someone who completely disconnected. Okay, they disconnected. Did I push them away? Are there ways in which I contributed sometimes to the disconnection?

And that is not self-blame. That is understanding the dynamic. You can take responsibility about things without blaming yourself. And you can hold the other person accountable without blaming them. It's not a blame dance. But it is an understanding of what did I do that made you do what you then did to me that then they made? That's the relationship. Yeah.

And if someone's like, you know what? They listen to you, Esther. They really want to have an amazing relationship. They want to have a rich life knowing it's not going to be perfect, but they want to create beauty and adventure and play and go through life through the sadness and the adversities and all the things that happen in life. And they're thinking to themselves,

how much should I pour into myself for my dreams, my health, my friends and family? How much should I pour into the other person, into their life that I'm creating a partnership with? And how much should I pour into the relationship itself? What would you say to that? But you asked me, it's different questions, right? What keeps a relationship alive is one question.

How much do you invest in a relationship is a different question. So I'm going to go to the one about what keeps it alive. Because it's part of, and I'm suddenly watching the box and thinking, it is what I'm mostly interested in. Because I work on eroticism. What keeps us alive? What keeps us hopeful? What keeps us engaged with possibility?

Not physically alive, but connected alive. Physically connected to life. Life force, life energy. Why? Because I think everybody understands relationships that are not dead versus relationships that are alive. Teams that are not dead, companies versus companies that are alive. What is flourishing versus surviving? And because it is part of my personal history, and I come from a background of survivors, of parents who were in concentration camps, and

I wanted to understand how do people stay alive when they spend five years in a concentration camp. So that's why I got interested in eroticism. Sexuality is a piece of this, but sexuality is not eroticism. You can have sex every day and feel nothing. Eroticism is the poetry that accompanies it. It's the meaning we give to it. Right?

It's the story that's attached. So eroticism in a relationship is the quality of imagination, curiosity, playfulness, mystery, risk-taking, novelty that people bring to their relationship. Those are the things that i think bring life to a relationship so in the research of eli finkel it means doing new things together

taking risks beyond your threshold out of your comfort zone because if you do pleasant things that are familiar it's cozy it's friendship it's love but it's not exciting it's not erotic it's not necessarily desire it's calibrating your expectations so that you have and that means diversifying your intimate connections or your deep connections doesn't you know for me intimacy doesn't meanleness. It just means people that are important to you, that accompany you through the life stages and through the big events in life. These three things, expectations, calibrating expectations, diversifying your social connections, and taking risks and doing new things,

is the research of Eli Finkel for thriving relationships. But then in that piece, I think play is essential. It's huge, right? Playfulness. It's huge. And it is actually the quality of emotions that is the least talked about. How often are you playing in your relationship? All the time. All the time. Humor is essential. It's an essential salve and balm in my relationship. I can be in the middle of an argument and then I start to laugh.

And then I just get perspective and we just kind of ground ourselves back again. It's flirting. It's teasing. It's making fun of. It's that whole realm of we're not really serious and we don't take ourselves that serious. And what happens when relationships are taking themselves very serious and they're not playing? Look, I had a teacher who once said to me, if a couple comes to you for therapy and there is absolutely zero humor left, it is diagnostic. Really?

Now, is it true? You know, nobody has proven that scientifically. But what you know is that humor, and if you listen to my podcast, if you listen to the sessions on Where Should We Begin or on How Is Work, you'll see in the middle of talking about trauma, painful event, major fights, strife, I laugh with them. I manage to see if they can see themselves, if they have a bit of distance, of perspective, if they understand sometimes the absurdity of the things that we get into, the things over which we fight, the way we do it.

And even if it's just a glimmer, a smile on the side, on corner i know they know that i know that we know and we and it creates that complicity and it invites a new possibility some people may be resisting the humor they're like no they want to hold on to the seriousness yes if you want to hold on to righteousness to i am right to victimization to i have the view that is the right only view that matters and only my perception and my experience is the truth then you are in a polarized system that is rigid and unyielding humor and play is possibility. Possibility invites change. Change invites healing. Yes. I want to ask you a few more questions, then I want us to play your game for a little bit.

Over the last two years, was there anything that came up for you personally in your own inner world that you noticed, oh, there's something, like we talked about it, it created a lot of pressure for people if there were things that came out. Was there anything for you that you were like, oh, there's something, like we talked about it, it created a lot of pressure for people if there were things that came out. Was there anything for you that you were like, oh, there's something I still need to work on myself or need to continue the healing journey of that came out in the last couple of years with being at home and not doing things the way they used to be? I will answer this in two ways.

The way that I experienced the the pandemic so in the first in the beginning right after I left you I went back to New York and I went in lockdown and basically it was in the you know suddenly kind of I got gripped with a bit of a panic and primarily because I thought I can't catch this thing. Because if I catch it, I am now suddenly considered elderly. I'm past 60. But you're 35. Yeah, yeah. For the pandemic it changed. It suddenly shifted overnight. I became elderly. And that meant I wasn't sure if we entered the hospital, me or Jack, that we will pass the triage.

Interesting. And he's older than me. And I got really, really scared. I had a lot of post-traumatic stress symptoms that are very much connected to the Holocaust and to my family experience. That sense that overnight, this whole life i have built could just disappear like this and it was irrational i was terrified that jack would die to the point you wanted to know about humor in my relationship so we are in the middle of construction at the time and then workers and at the point he comes to me and he says i asked the

workers to create to dig a hole in the garden. I said, oh, yeah, why? He said, so that when I die, you can just roll me right in. Oh, my gosh. Wow, talk about humor. But I cracked up because he showed me, girl, you gripped in fear. And I just started to laugh. And I just realized, no, no, no, he's not dead.

Because I was ready to stop construction. I said, we're not making one can come here within a thousand yards of our no it's more like we will not survive no way I was a really when it's post-traumatic it's trauma is the word right so I really was very very very scared and his humor diffused it for me and just brought me back and said, we're continuing to build. We're going to live. We're going to survive. Don't worry, girl. It's like, so this was one. And it slowly, you know, I entered into the long term of the pandemic.

And it dissolved. And that's when I understood this came out of that. I missed my friends. I missed my dinner parties. I missed intimacy. And I created a host of different group experiences, pods. I had a movie club. That's cool.

On Zoom, on three continents. Oh, that's cool. I had a book club. I had a yoga group that met four times a week still till now. That is over two continents. Wow, that's cool. And I had a yoga group that met four times a week still till now that is over two continents. Wow, that's cool. And I had a hiking group. I had a swimming group in the summer.

And then one day I said, I need to play. And I need to continue to have conversations where I learn something new. I was so freaking tired of talking about the pandemic all the time. And I said, I'm going to create a game. Not having any idea of what this thing was going to become and what it represented I just thought I want to do something creative and I want people to be able to talk about something

that isn't just like when you live six months like this in lockdown you begin to have the same conversation so I just thought how am I going to make couples have fun get energized be curious about each other, talk about something else? And I thought, we need to play because play is a container.

Play gives you the possibility to take risks, to talk about things that you would otherwise not talk about because it's under the guise of play. Play allows you to ask questions that you would otherwise not ask, certainly not to your partner, because we get more shy with the people that we live with than with strangers sometimes. Really? Interesting, yeah. You know, you're more daring to ask sometimes questions to strangers. Strangers. That you're never gonna see again.

Or people you've just met than the person you live with for decades on end. That's interesting. I just, so play became very, very central. When you play, you still are able to lift yourself from the ground, and it means you can enter the world of imagination and where the rules are different. And every child at this moment, you know, around the Ukrainian crisis, you can see when kids are still able to play,

it is the moments when they are not in hypervigilance. It is an essential survival skills. Yes, yes. Underrated. And from that place came... That's great. Where should we begin? It's one of the key things in relationship and in life,

is what I'm hearing you say. It's essential. It's essential. It's essential. It's essential. Now, here's another side question before we get into this. Play is problem solving. Play is creativity. Play is risk taking.

Play is... Spontaneity. It's all these things. It's the other side of fear. When you're playing, and as an athlete, when I'm playing I'm not thinking about other things. If you're playing you get in the zone, your flow, and you can't put your attention somewhere else. When you do that's when you mess up the game, right? You're not in your best flow state when you're thinking about something else. So play allows you to get out

of that, which I think is really powerful. And my friend Matt, he's like, I'm always playing with him. When you play, do you play for fun or do you play for winning? To win? Yes. No, I play for both. Yeah. I used to only play to win. Yeah.

Now I play for fun, but I also, you know, it's like me and my girlfriend, we play cards a lot. We have a game that we started playing over the holidays called NERTS. It's kind of like speed solitaire, right? Where you both play and there's like some shared space in the middle where you play as well. And we play for fun, but I'm also, I want to win. So it's like I'm competitive, but it's okay. I can just play and have fun too.

And you can appreciate a good game that you lost. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Because it makes me want to go again. Let's again you know so i love playing yeah um but i used to be only i have to play to win and it was like an obsession and now it's shifted to i'm still a very competitive human but i can play so i used to play without having to create a situation where there is a winner and a loser so that I could have fun. That's great. And then it was the same idea here.

That's what you created this. There is no winner. It's a storytelling game. So there is no winner so that you don't have to compete so that you can have fun. That's great. Some people are like, yeah. I want to get into this in a second, but there's one thing I want to ask you about this last couple of years. If someone's listening or watching and they're thinking to themselves, here's Esther Perel. She is one of the top people in the world on healing and therapy and connection.

And she's been studying this and created best-selling books and podcasts and games. And this is your life's mission. And yet you know post-traumatic stress or things that come up for her still and she's the expert in this is there anything that you feel like you still need work healing in order to let certain things go or are these things always going to be with us at certain times different stresses or pains or wounds or p or PTSD from the past of our individual lives. Look, the notion that when you heal, something utterly disappears is one component of healing. But the other part is that you need a bigger trigger to reactivate an old wound. a bigger trigger to reactivate an old wound, but there is a whole new range where the wound can live

without being activated. Right, you've healed a certain amount of triggers, but there might be a bigger. So, you know, you come back from Iraq, from Afghanistan, from all the wars that people have fought here, or you are a refugee from Syria or from Afghanistan, from all the wars that people have fought here, or you are a refugee from Syria or from Afghanistan, I mean, all sides, you may not at every siren jump anymore.

But if suddenly... If there's a bomb. Yes, you will jump. Gotcha. So the range and the response to the danger jump. Gotcha. So the range and the response, you know, to the danger shifts. Gotcha. That's the piece around healing. I think for me, it was a real surprise, this fear that I got to experience.

I didn't remember that. It had been a long time since, because I thought... Because you're constantly doing the work. Yes. You're constantly in the... I thought I have kind of created a life where i have a sense of ownership i have a sense of control i have a sense but i always live with dread you do i do still today that my whole life live with dread like that every minute

something could happen the sky could fall and the whole thing could disappear. Really? Because that is the core story of my family. But I don't have the dread all the time. But when it grips, in the past, it would grip without anything happening. It just was like happening to me because I had a day where I just didn't know what I was going to do with my life. So it disappeared. I could talk about it, but I wouldn't necessarily feel it it's physical it's visceral it's like you described the chest for me it's the gut it says right but when the pandemic arrives it's a trigger that is strong enough to bring back that sense of dread and at

that time i wasn't aware of my dread. I was feeling my dread. That's very different. That's what I mean by the external versus the internal. I am so excited to travel this summer. And have you ever thought about all the people that make a vacation truly great? The pilot that gets you to your destination, the hotel concierge that knows all the best spots, the chefs that make the incredible food that you eat. You know, outstanding talent is crucial for a successful business also. And if you're hiring, you can find talent for roles like these and more when you try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash greatness. Now, ZipRecruiter uses a powerful technology to

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Now, what do people struggle with? People have struggled with prolonged uncertainty. Here are the five things of the pandemic that have affected relationships the most. One is a prolonged sense of uncertainty. It's not just that you're not sure when this is going to end, but you're not sure about you not being sure. Okay? This thing keeps coming and going all the time. One minute you say it's gone, the next minute you realize,

oh, it's not gone at all. Then it's the notion of what we experienced was a collapse of all the boundaries. Here I am, I'm at home, I i'm on my chair at my kitchen table and i am a therapist and a supervisor and a podcaster and a mother and a friend and a wife and and and i haven't left the chair oh man still just in sweatpants with the you know and i'm like where is work where is life where is morning where is night where it's just like all the roles have collapsed and we are not made like this we are physical people and we are spatially oriented and we change location for our activities we change clothes for our activities and they help us enter the role now i'm going to work now i'm going to

play sports now i'm going to the club now i'm going out now i'm going to visit my mother and i look i feel different i look different i wear different i have rituals i have things a different bag a different racket none of this you know what it means when your entire arsenal of rituals that give meaning and frame your parts dissolves, you get exhausted. So that was the collapse of boundaries. Then there was the sense of ambiguous loss. You know, we lost spontaneity. We lost plans. We lost the weddings, the graduations, the parties, the promotions.

Sports, games, everything, yeah. It's not, there is the loss of death, but there is that other loss, the buildings that are standing, but they're empty. They're physically present, but emotionally vacated. We have the grandparents and the parents that are physically gone, but emotionally present. We call that ambiguous loss when you are either physically present and psychologically gone or psychologically present and physically gone. That ambiguous loss became a part of what then Adam Grant began to describe in the languishing. Languishing is you're not depressed, you're just like lifeless, flat, listless. Nothing is really giving you the sense of meaning and purpose and joy that you generally want.

That has happened in your relationship and what happens when you are in a period of liminality like this where the big dilemmas are not getting answered is that all the unknowns are filtering onto your relationships and the relationship becomes the holder of all that stress and that is part of the divorce rate at the moment and the weight that has felt on the relationships. It's not just people didn't get along. It's that people needed in the relationships

to deal from the political polarization to the racial reckoning, to the economic insecurity, to the ambiguous loss, to the prolonged uncertainty, all of that fell on relationships. This is the story of the last

two years. That people know, they feel it, but they don't necessarily articulate it. Hard to make a relationship last. If you don't have the tools and you're not willing to work through it. How do you stay grounded when the ground itself

is moving? It's quicksand. It's the great adaptation of this moment. Yeah. And so relationships began to see the cracks inside their relationship

and people also began to see the light that shines through the cracks. Both ends. Yes. Well, play is key in a relationship

and I'm glad that I'm playful and I'm down for this game. Where should we begin? I'm going to hook you to this game so that you and Marta can tell stories to each other like never before. This is a game that came to you, you know, this is one of the things that came to you during the pandemic because you wanted to have creativity, you wanted to have play, connection, all these different things. So you created this game, Where Should We Begin? A game of stories by Esther Perel.

And there's no winner, there's no loser, so it's not the type of game I'm used to playing. Typically. Yes, exactly. So we both have a set of cards. Do I pick any or should I give you one? No, you pick from mine. I'm going to have you pick from mine. Should I go first or you go first?

Yeah, you go first. You sure? Yeah. Let let's go the safest one okay so then i pick and do i get to say if i want to answer it or not or no you have to answer i have to answer it okay a rule i secretly love to break a rule When are you rule breaking? I feel like I'm always breaking the... But it's a story. Okay, I can tell a story. Okay. It's a story. Okay. Why? Why do I always break? I actually think stories, relationships are stories. Stories are bridges to each other, stories bind us. So... Here's a rule I like to break consistently.

Yes. And since we're going on the story of play in some ways, I feel like I've emotionally and physically matured and grown up. In other ways, I feel like I've kept this childlike curiosity inside of me. It's one of the reasons why I love to interview people and do the podcast. It's one of the reasons I try to make people feel uncomfortable when I meet them for the first time by asking them questions that maybe they wouldn't have answered with a stranger.

So one of the things I love to break is in my relationship is trying to bring play to every moment, even when it's stressful. Do you like to be goofy? I love to be goofy. Love to be silly and tease. And I think there's a difference between teasing and bullying. I don't want to be a bully. It's a world apart.

Yeah, exactly. I don't want to be a bully, but I love to be playful and tease and just throw a little, what about this? You know, a little comment here. Marta, she says that she thinks I was like, you know, a Mexican in another life because I have, she says I have the humor, not of a white person from America, but of a Mexican because I'm teasing and playful. And I have a sarcasm that she says is similar to the way that she grew up. So I think for me,

I don't take anything too seriously. And especially in the relationship, which is why I love that you said play is one of the keys to success. And which is why if someone is not reciprocal, then it becomes challenging if they're not wanting to play with you. It's like throwing a ball that drops the floor.

Yeah, you're playing ping pong and it just, with yourself, yeah. Yes. So that is a rule i love to to secretly break is just being being a child having childlike energy but having maturity at the same time nice yes okay so then what i finished the card and now it's your turn right now we're doing it like this but you know sometimes i put two two cards and then I get to pick for the other person or people themselves. Then we have little orange tokens in which when you play with a group,

we can put pressure on the card. And then the group says, we want you to talk about this. So it becomes very… To kind of have someone do it, yes. Yes. So there's all kinds of variations, but it's… I kind of want to do a sexual one with you i think we took all those cards out but here i'll let you just choose one

you asked for us to take them out so i was gonna go i know i should have oh god the most humiliated i've ever felt oh god the most embarrassing or humiliating story? I can tell you immediately the thing. I'm like 10, 11. Okay. What is it? It goes back a long time. I stole a candy. Oh, that's it? Well, you don't want to be caught.

You got caught. I got caught. By who? Your parents? By the store person? By the person that was waiting in line. They saw you. They saw me and said to the person she stole this no

way what did you have to do i gave it back oh man and she said you have to pay for it i said i don't want it she said you have to pay for it i said i don't have the money she said you leave me something and then you come back with the money wow so you have to pay for it even though you didn't take it? Well, I didn't have the money. Oh, wow. So I went home, I got the money, because I had to leave my school bag. Oh my gosh. Oh, you had to leave like some collateral,

some like your ID or your phone at the time, yes. Yes, I had to leave collateral. And bring money back. That's so embarrassing, it's humiliating. It's like, yeah, because if you're gonna take something, you're not supposed to take the whole point of it. Is then I get caught. Is not to be caught.

You know, it's interesting. And I probably love this because I bet other people have conversations when you answer and then it triggers something in someone else. Yes. I stole for a couple years from, I don't know, 10, 11, somewhere around there, 11, 12. Save it, yeah. What was your tea? Candy all the time. Also candy.

Right, candy. And I thought I was so smooth. I never got caught from a store. But one time, I went to my, this was the most humiliating probably, and embarrassing, and probably the most shameful thing, you know, as a kid growing up. My dad brought me and a friend of mine

after basketball practice to go to one of his clients. He sold life insurance. And we had to drive out of the 45 to an hour away to a farm. He was like a client of his at a farm in Ohio. And we go there and my dad's like, okay, you got you kids like hang out on the farm or whatever in the house and walk around. I got to talk to Mr. So-and-so for an hour to go over stuff so we're walking around nosy little kids you know 12 years old go down in the basement and i'm like opening up drawers i'm doing stuff i shouldn't do i see a wallet i take out the wallet i open it up there's a 20 bill and a five dollar bill and we're looking at each other like, should we do this? I'm like, he will never know. I take the five.

My friend takes the 20. I get woken up that night at, I don't know, 4 a.m. in the morning. And my dad is hovering over me. At this time, my dad's pretty intimidating still. And he's hovering over me. Did you steal from so-and-so money? And I go, no. Right away, I'm like, am I dreaming?

Am I awake? I'm like, no, I'm defending myself, right? Lied right to my dad. And he goes, Mr. So-and-so was going to buy food for, like, his cows, right, or for his, like, animals on the farm. And he doesn't have the money to go buy the food. Like, it's gone. I go, I don't know.

I don't know what happened. You know, I just lied. But I was also, like, waking up. I was, like, disoriented. I go, I don't know. I don't know what happened. You know, I just lied. But I was also like waking up.

I was like disoriented. And then he calls my friend's parents and he admits to it. And it was the most humiliating, embarrassing, shameful thing because I had to drive back alone. My friend didn't have to go, but I drove back for the hour with my parents in the front seat, me in the back seat, just so ashamed. And I had to go face this guy and say, I'm sorry, with like the most, you know. He was just so frustrated and angry and upset. And I never stole again after that. So I don't know, did you steal after that moment? No, you know, my moment is I'm taking the thing and somebody goes like this.

No, they did that? Yes. No way. I steal at the bookshop. Oh, my gosh. And it's like you freeze oh my gosh the shame i'll never forget this guy's face like i was 12 years old right okay oops okay if i could whisper something in the ear of my younger self, I would say, and I'd probably say something very loving. Part of me would want to be playful,

but I'd probably say something loving because that's what I needed to hear. I'd probably say that you are loved, you matter, and it's all going to be okay. That's what I would say because I think that's what I needed to hear the most. And it's funny because I've said this so many times on my show. So my audience is going to get tired of me saying this.

But I'm going to show you this. Over a year ago, I put a photo of my younger self on my screensaver. I've talked about this so many times now. And so for the last year, this is my therapist Clara had me do work on my inner child. On healing the relationship that I had with myself back then and really having intimate conversations, exercises with the five, six, seven-year-old that was sexually abused. I've talked about that with you before, which I never really fully healed that whole conversation with. that whole conversation with. And it's been a beautiful journey to have intimacy, connection, you know,

and bridge the gap from five, six, seven till now and be able to have a conversation between that space and time and really bring the two together, you know, my inner child into me through healing. What would this one say to you? What would he say to me? Oh my gosh.

That's a good. Actually. That's really good. May I bring it back? Yeah, yeah. What does he say to you? Oh my gosh. He probably says, let me see.

I'm getting my heart here. He says, thank you. He says, thank you. Thank you for being willing to be courageous in all these scary emotions. All the scary emotions that I'm feeling right now. The things that I'm uncertain about. The things that I'm afraid of. Thank you for having the courage to dive in and put all your emotions on the table, address the messiness, handle it all, and supporting me in finding peace and healing that I've always wanted.

That's what it, that's what it would say, yeah. So, yeah, I know, it's, it's crazy. It's crazy. It's crazy. It's crazy. Oh, okay. Okay, I'm going to the next one. This is what I do. I laugh when things get deep. I get deep and then I'm like, okay.

You laugh when your tears are streaming down your face. Of course, of course. Okay, this is you. Oops. I would sell everything to be able to it's interesting I don't have a dream you know I live a lot of my dreams at this moment so I don't feel like I I would sell but I think if I was to I would sell everything to remain healthy. Yeah. Or I would sell everything for my kids or my partner to be healthy.

And if I needed to, like, I would go everywhere in the world just to make sure that if there's something that can keep them, it's not just alive, it's healthy. Yeah. Because I don't want them just to. Not just suffering and alive, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think that at this point, it's healthy. Yeah. Because I don't want them just to... Not just suffering and alive, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think that at this point, that's the only... Is that the biggest fear for you? Yes, but you see, when I say I live with dread,

you jumped at like, really? Because it's not the, you know... I live with the fear of loss. It's not dread, you know, I live with the fear of loss. It's not dread, just bad things happening. What's underneath is the fact that my parents had lost everybody. And so their entire families, they were the only two that came out. And this is part of my DNA. And so the fear of loss, of traumatic loss and the grief, that's what I fear.

So health or selling everything or imagining myself cruising the world to find the best doctor that could help me with something is part of preventing that loss. Have you had major losses? No. of preventing that loss. Have you had major losses? No, except that actually I, on a personal level, have not. But I often, you know, if one of them drives, I often at night. Get worried. You know, I just, I've never said don't go. But I just like the little call when they arrive. You're like my mom too.

I can easily imagine accidents. Oh, man. I can easily imagine, yes, I am a catastrophizer in that sense. So what does therapy do? It allows you to just, in your mind, it's like, no. It calms the mind. You go out, it calms you. But I still like the call of course the

assurance so it the fear is loss and the dread is the manifestation of that fear so i just tell everything actually i don't know what it's like i could put it like that i would sell everything to be able to live without dread oh that would probably be the what would it take from you i don't know to process to let that go i look at people who don't have those fears and i had i think they are free of this it's like what does life look like without worry peaceful you know peaceful thingsful inside. They have other things. Yeah, yeah. Other stresses. They have other things. Other stresses, yeah. But it's an amazing thing when I see people who don't have, you know, that is not their thing. Yeah.

I don't have their things. You don't have jealousy or insecurity. No, I don't have that. Do you work with a therapist yourself? I have. I don't do, I don't work with a therapist at this moment, but I have over the many years of my life, yes. Do you think it's important for therapists to have therapists? Absolutely.

Absolutely. First of all, if you don't, then you will be triggered by things that people bring into your office and you will be projecting things on them that don't belong to them. We call that countertransference. So, you know, there is what people put on you but there is what you put on them because you have something unresolved or there is what you can't work with because of what is happening inside of you wow so it's you've got to be

cleansing yourself constantly probably interesting what do you think you said you haven't had a therapist in a while or worked with one in a while where do you think what would what would i go to for today yeah what would you what would be available for you today if you were doing i would go to a coach because i need practical help it's it's less internal at this moment yes um it's more it's more practical things i what's holding you back from... I don't. I am a person who likes to receive help. So I don't... You just haven't found the right coach. I wrote a whole piece recently about asking for help in the blog.

Because I realized that it's very easy for me to ask for help. Actually, when we met early, early on, I asked for help. Absolutely. And I just thought... You're like, I've never done this marketing stuff.

Yes, like I know nothing about marketing. You're like the genius marketer. I'm a therapist who suddenly finds it. And I just thought, I know people and they can help me. And I don't feel... Like, I have no problem saying I know nothing about this. But because I know, I trust what I do know a lot about. And this is new for me so I don't

experience it as belittling or admitting or vulnerable or I think it's an amazing thing to ask for help I loved and by the way I did ask on social I asked people you know how do you feel about asking for help and like 70 something percent of people said i don't do it i don't like it that doesn't make me feel good etc and then i said and how do you feel when other people ask you for help and the same 70 said i love it and i'm thinking you know what it's like when other people ask you don't think they're stupid they don't know they're vulnerable they're they're you know you think you want to help you want to help well why don't think they're stupid, they don't know, they're vulnerable, they're, you know, you think... You want to help. You want to help.

Well, why don't you think that when you ask for help, other people enjoy that too? Right. So I'm big into the asking for help these days. And therapy is a piece of that. At this moment, therapy is not the thing I need. But that doesn't mean that, you know, Jack thinks I should meditate. Maybe you need a meditation coach. So I do, I do, but in movement.

I get calm when I move. Yeah, when you walk or you're hiking. I don't sit. That does not work for me. What's the one thing that triggers you the most that you would like to evolve beyond? What's the thing that... Irritates you or triggers you or bureaucrats rigidity rigidity uh which is the opposite of playfulness not flexibility right

and arbitrariness rules for the sake of rules yeah bureaucracy um you know in the big sense of the word and bureaucrats as a whole you know that you know things that you know

rigidity which means that you write you don't listen to others you make your point I mean conversations

that are not conversations people that yell at each other for the sake of yelling at each other. Cancel culture from all sides. Frustrating, yeah. Yes.

I mean, my work is about helping people have the difficult conversations that they need to have, want to have, don't know how to have. As long as they want to, I can do something. Right.

If they think they know it all, and if they think they know you even better than you know yourself, and that they have no curiosity, I find that challenging. Yeah. I love curiosity. I hate, what's the opposite of curiosity? Fixed. Yeah.

Yeah, certainty. But certainty is the enemy of change. Right, right. I want to go one more question each. I want to make sure I'm respectful of time. I think we've got about 10 more minutes. Before I ask the, I think it's mine. I'm going to pick, before I ask, because I want to pick it,

but you just brought something up to me that, I had a conversation with another therapist, Dr. Romany, and she speaks all about narcissism. Yes, she was the keynote speaker at a conference that I went to this year, too. Dr. Romani, and she speaks all about narcissism. Yes, she was the keynote speaker at a conference that I went to this year too. And this video got so much attention that I did with her in this interview.

And we don't have to go into it for too long, but you were just mentioning how people have like, that don't wanna do the work, right? You mentioned like they're fixed, they're shouting for shouting, they're not willing to look at themselves. And she was mentioning how it's really hard to diagnose a narcissist because they have to be willing to come to therapy and most of them will never do it unless they're forced to. In your practice,

do you interact with a lot of narcissists? And she also mentions how it's almost impossible. I don't want to say exact words she said, but I think she said it's almost impossible for a narcissist to change and evolve. Unless they do therapy every day type of mentality where they really are practicing this thing on a consistent basis. And I'm sure there's a spectrum of narcissistic personality traits and a range of how strong someone is in that. What's your thoughts on narcissism in general? And can people change or evolve out of it? I can answer it clinically and culturally. I mean, maybe we should start by talking about, like Christopher Lash talked about,

we do live in a narcissistic culture. Selfie culture, the likes. We live in a culture of narcissism. Once you are continuously evaluating yourself, proving yourself, performing, demonstrating yourself, you know, posting about yourself, engaging in fake news about yourself, you are in a narcissistic culture that, you know, criteria, diagnosis, accompany the culture of the day. In the 19th century, we talked about hysteria. We do not talk much about hysteria today because we realize that the majority of these hysteric women,

supposedly hysteric women, were actually women who had experienced sexual abuse. They were not hysterical, they were traumatized. Narcissism is the word that we come back with on the 21st century. Stress and anxiety and depression was the 20th century. So every century and every culture has its expressions through mental illness or mental manifestations. Eating disorders exist in some cultures and not in others. You know, a diagnosis, a personality disorder, doesn't just exist like that without a background.

So that means that it's easy to make these issues very personal, but they are also societal. That said, I have sat with people who have a whole range of narcissistic tendencies to get to saying somebody is a narcissist, somebody is depressed, somebody is, you know, I think that there are, there's more to us than just that. But you see a lot of people with narcissistic tendencies and you see a lot of people with narcissistic tendencies. And you see a lot of people who are not just exhibiting it with manifest narcissism, but there's a whole other form of narcissism that is called covert narcissism, which we talk about much less because we don't name it in those ways.

What is the difference? That is a long conversation. That is really a long conversation. In the short form, what is the... You know, power can come from above and power can come from underneath. is a long conversation that is really a long conversation in the short form what is the you know power can come from above and power can come from underneath you can have power through victimization you can make people feel guilty all the time you can be passive aggressive you can make people continuously feel that they are responsible for your life that if they don't

do what you want that you may kill yourself There's loads of ways to make other people submit themselves to you. And that would be considered covert? Those are expressions of more covert narcissism. Covert. It's not like this domineering, but it's a psychological... You can control people from the top and you can control people from underneath. I think that there is a certain profile at this point of when we say narcissist everybody has five or six associations

that are quite similar and i this is really a whole other conversation but um what i will say is that um yes i have sat with people who have very little regard, people who bring everything onto themselves, people who see everything as a reflection of themselves, people who are charming, charming when they need to seduce you, and then once they think they have you, they turn and they go into the next people who they need to charm, but those that they have already recruited are disregarded and discarded. So they got the most out of them already. Yeah. You know, people who can lie pathologically to

you, people who have very little empathy for what is happening. So there is a cluster of things that I think for me, I tend to look at behaviors and I tend to look at interactions because I'm a relational therapist and I'm a systems-oriented therapist and so I less spend my time labeling a personality. I think it's useful on occasion but it is not my primary vocabulary. But she's very eloquent about it yes yes we'll have to have you back on to do a whole two hour conversation

on that another time because there's a lot to that it's really I do not want to talk about complex topics in a short amount of time because it doesn't do them justice and I don't like to

reinforce notions that have not been examined. Absolutely. But that are easy to grab on. We'll have you back on for that. I'll do one final card and then I think I've got to make sure I'm respecting the time.

You're going to touch on me. Yep. What is that? Okay. I'm my own worst enemy when... It's interesting. I... You know what? You want to give me a different one yes okay

okay because because of what happened just a few minutes before last time I cried was even yesterday you know in terms of my father just died two months ago and so I've been crying a lot you know every couple of days i hear a song that really connects me to a memory to him and to the whole it was a sad experience because he happened into a car accident 17 years ago had a severe brain trauma was in a coma for three months then he woke up he went in a different country in new zealand at the time i was in college then he came back and it was like my dad was physically here but emotionally mentally and spiritually not ambiguous loss yes this is it i never was able to fully grieve that's ambiguous loss my father he was physically here but the emotion the same were not the same person. And every interaction I had with him was reminding me of the loss.

Was I'm grateful he's here and it's great to experience some time with him, but every time I go and say hello, he says Louis, right? What didn't you, didn't you used to play? Where'd you, what sport did you play growing up? Where did you go to school again? So he could have a conversation with you and speak conversationally, but it was the same story over and over again. I'm needing to remind my father for 17 years of the memory loss that he had. Show him photos of him with me, taking photos of me playing sports the second half of my life with him was beautiful he showed up he transformed he overcame a lot of the the anger and resentment he had and i had two different lives with him when i was 13 before i had a some love some scary with him then after 13 it was like this incredible friendship so it's like i lost my dad but he was

physically here and every year there was some type of health scare he had a couple strokes a heart attack he had multiple surgeries from the accident just the complications from the accident and so every year i didn't know if he was going to survive or not and i was it was always when is it going to happen this year? Okay, he's in the hospital now. Is he going to make it? Do I need to be there in this 17-year cycle of learning to accept something and doing my best to be okay with it?

And accepting and loving where it's at. So for me, it was 17 years of, i want to say numbing but it was acceptance and just like managing it the best i could and then when he passed in february a couple months ago it was i mean just full circle kind of like going back 17 years ago and reliving that and then reliving my whole childhood and allowing myself to be to have a full range of emotions and I think it's beautiful because you feel like this time actually you can fully agree I feel like I can see this is a big loss what you just described can't grieve can't mourn because he's there but he's not there yeah it is this one

gives it now you can experience the full range. Absolutely. I didn't feel like I could. Yeah. And I feel like I have a more spiritual connection to him now than in the last 17 years. You know, every night I'm connecting with him in my own way in my little meditation room. And, you know, throughout the days there are things that come up where I feel the spiritual presence. And it's a beautiful it's sad it's beautiful it's emotional it's it's a wide range of emotions and you know there's a

lot of sadness i have because i wish it wasn't that way but i also relief i have some relief and i'm also doing doing my best to create meaning from the whole thing so that it's not just this thing I'm frustrated with constantly, but like, you know what? I probably wouldn't be doing this without that pain and sadness and loss. I wouldn't be a curious, hungry, I wouldn't have been as resourceful if I had him there. So, yeah, I mean, I've been crying a lot.

I've been crying a lot. And it's been beautiful to have a safe environment in my relationship with someone who allows that. Because I think that's hard for some people to allow that, especially for men to be able to express their full range of emotions and for their partner to feel safe with that too. So I feel very grateful. Absolutely.

It hasn't been fun, but it's also been allowing me to have peace with it. It's an amazing thing that if you ask people when's the last time you laughed, nobody has to justify laughing. But crying.

But crying, people have to justify it. They have to. It's interesting you ask that. I mean, it is the absolute natural emotion to feel in sadness, in grief,

in loss. What a man, woman, they, them, whoever. I had a woman on two days ago who hasn't cried in years.

And I had a man on yesterday who hasn't cried in, I think, 10 or 12 years. And it's interesting. It's like there's something there, I think, to be able to have the full range. Of course. I'm not saying you need to cry all day long or something, but allowing yourselves to feel.

But that's probably for a whole other conversation. I mean, I would say that it's hard for people to really fully say yes if you can't fully say no. And it is hard for people to fully laugh if you can't also cry. If something is funny, you automatically do this. If something is sad, the fact that you stay like that, affectless, or that you repress it, or that you hold it in, or that you hold it in, or that you don't even notice it, or that the thing is coming down your face and you don't even realize.

I've had people tear in my office while they say I never cry. What does that mean when someone isn't able to fully laugh or fully cry? What would it be like if a person comes into this world and doesn't scream? I mean, if a baby doesn't scream when they come out, you think they're death at birth. What is it like when people make love and make no noise? When it's impossible. I mean, you're a sports person.

You know that if you lift something, you make noises. You scream, you grunt. The voice, it's just, what does it mean when this whole thing is closed off? There's something inside that's missing or dead or trapped. Or trapped. Yeah. Or was shoved down or can't come out. But for sure, it is a blockage.

Yeah. We've got another session we're going to have to do because I'm feeling the time and I want to be respectful of what you have next after this, but I could talk to you for hours. This game is a lot of fun. Where Should We Begin? A Game of Stories by Esther Perel.

So make sure you guys get this, get a few for your friends, have it on your coffee table. Wedding season, graduation, schools, parties, births, all these things are happening now. So this is a way for you to connect. I think this is brilliant because I don't think most people have these type of intimate conversations. This is something that I live by. It's as intimate as you want, by the way. You can stay perfectly light and fun. You can just do sexual fun talk and you can go deeper and all these different things.

Indeed, indeed. So get the game. It's going to be powerful for you. And I think the world is craving connection and conversations in this way. You know what I was thinking? If people want to have an opportunity to have a conversation like we have, we're casting for Housework. Yes.

For the work-related podcast. So they're live. Where can they go to do that? EstherPerel.com slash podcast. Okay. There's a casting on there. There's a casting on there. What do they get if they're selected?

A three-hour session with me recorded anonymously. So they don't say their names or you... No, all identifiable features are removed so that it becomes a conversation for all of us and it's sacred yeah still they get a free session yeah wow that's you're in high demand you're like a wait list is like three years so that's a big deal so if they go to astroprow.com slash podcast they can apply for that to see if they can uh get a session if you want to work on a relationship issue that pertains to work. And the fascinating thing

is that it seems that people have a harder time talking about their romantic relationship than about work. Why is that? That's for when I come back.

So many topics for the next conversation. Excited. We've got this. We've got narcissism. We've got the trapped emotions of not crying. All these things.

They can go to game.esterperel.com to get this game, Where Should We Begin? I recommend you guys getting it. Esther Perel, everywhere on social media. Where are you spending the most time these days on social media? Where should they, is it Instagram or Instagram? Okay, cool.

So we'll go there. And also your two podcasts. Make sure you guys subscribe. They're both, both on Spotify, right? Powerful. Yes. Where should we begin is life changing. If you want to master your relationships, you're going to hear so many crazy fascinating stories about people's life couples therapy, life couples therapy. It's, it's fascinating. You've done how many seasons now? Two, three, six. I've only heard the first two, so I need to get caught up.

Okay. So six episodes, six seasons of that. And then you've got Housework, which is all about work dynamics. You've got some fascinating stories there. So I'm very excited about those. Make sure you guys subscribe. Get the book. Two books you have. Mating and Captivity. The State of Affairs.

Yes. Get those books. We'll link all that stuff up as well. Two final questions for you that I've asked you have. Mating in Captivity. The State of Affairs. Yes. Get those books. We'll link all that stuff up as well. Two final questions for you that I've asked you before as your fourth time on, but I want to see if it's changed after the pandemic. Imagine it's your last day on earth many years away, but you get to live as long as you want to live. And you've gotten rid of dread in your life, right? So you've got no more dread. But for whatever reason, it's the last day for you,

many years away. And you've got to take everything with you that you've created. Or we don't have access to the games, the books, the podcasts anymore for whatever reason. But you get to leave behind three lessons to the world, three truths that you would share. And this is all we would have.

What would those three lessons be for you? The quality of your relationships is determined Or I would be the quality of your relationships determines the quality of your lives When people tell me you've changed my life When people stop me on the street to talk about the podcast all over the world, but what they say is, you changed my life. You accompanied me through my relationship, my divorce, my affair. I just feel like I have a reason to be here. It's a tremendous affirmation.

It's what I've done for others, what it means for them to have been in conversation with me. And this is true for my friends, this is true for my patients or for the people who listen. So what I take with me is the people who would tell me what my presence has meant in their life. And the third one is I live with three men, my husband and my two sons, and I really, if I go, I want them to take all the love, the joy, the fun,

the laughter that we have experienced together and go and experience it with other women. They happen to be into women, so they should all go to other women. That I will continue to live in them through the relationships that they will have with others. Wow, that's beautiful. I wanna acknowledge you Esther

for the way you continually show up in this world, because I think I've known you for like six, seven, eight years and the conversations we have here and off of the podcast show up in this world because I think I've known you for like six, seven, eight years. And the conversations we have here and off of the podcast are always so inspiring to me and also to so many people that watch and listen. And you're amazing at what you do and you help so many people. So I really acknowledge you for consistently living a life of service to help people on the thing that is the most important, which is the quality of their relationships, the relationships with others and work, intimacy and with themselves. on the thing that is the most important, which is the quality of their relationships,

their relationships with others and work, intimacy, and with themselves. So I really appreciate you and acknowledge you for giving us the wisdom and advice we need to help mend these relationships. My final question is, what's your definition of greatness? I would love to hear what a thousand people must have defined this for you.

And I'm curious what I answered on other times about this one. I think that I like the sentence from my friend Terry Reel, who you should have on the podcast. And who will talk to you about narcissism and grandiosity in people. On the other side of grandiosity, you know, it would be a great conversation to have with you and grandiosity in people. Okay. On the other side of grandiosity, you know, it would be a great conversation to have with you about grandiosity, but greatness is when you can see yourself as a flawed individual

and still hold yourself in high regard. I don't think I've even shared that before. If you know that you are imperfect you are actually not that great you're great but not the greatest and you can still hold yourself in high regard

then I think you are great Esther, thank you so much, appreciate you appreciate you thank you so much for listening, I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's show with all the important links. And also make sure to share this with a friend and subscribe over on Apple Podcasts as well. I really love hearing feedback from you guys.

So share a review over on Apple and let me know what part of this episode resonated with you the most. And if no one's told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.