The School of Greatness - Fear, Shame, and the Fight to Get Out of Your Own Way | Joel Kinnaman

Episode Date: May 27, 2026

You can be wildly successful and still be quietly falling apart inside. Joel Kinnaman has appeared in some of the most talked-about shows in Hollywood. He has starred in The Killing, Robocop, House of Cards, Altered Carbon, and is currently in his fifth season of For All Mankind. And he will be the first to tell you that none of that made the war inside his head any quieter. Before every live theater performance for three straight years, he threw up. He kept a bucket backstage. The negative voices in his mind were relentless, and he spent years drinking heavily, using drugs, and force-feeding himself in a desperate attempt to hide the shame he felt about a physical condition that had left him feeling deformed since childhood. What changed everything was not a breakthrough moment. It was a choice to stop running from the fear and bury himself in the work. He memorized a 105-minute one-man show in 10 days, playing 16 different characters, and walked on stage without throwing up for the first time. That experience taught him something he still carries: preparation is armor. The deeper a role is in your bones, the more freedom you have to be alive inside it. He is still working on the personal side. He describes himself as a disaster in relationships, not from a lack of care, but from years of treating his career as the only thing that could not touch him. He talks about wanting to find the balance between the structure that builds trust and the childlike wonder that keeps him creative. That tension is where this conversation lives. Joel’s IMDB In this episode you will: Understand how shame about a physical condition called pectus excavatum triggered an eating disorder that took years to unpack and overcome Discover how Joel turned debilitating stage fright and a 3-year pattern of pre-performance vomiting into a breakthrough that rewired his relationship with fear Learn why preparation is the most underrated performance skill and why Joel insists on being at least 3 nights ahead on every scene he shoots Hear why Joel sees himself as a different man in his career versus his personal relationships, and what he believes he needs to change to close that gap Explore how Joel uses psilocybin experiences, breathwork, and the Buddhist concept of shepa to create space between triggers and reaction in his daily life For more information go to https://lewishowes.com/1933 For more Greatness text PODCAST to [phone] Follow The Daily Motivation for essential highlights from The School of Greatness More SOG episodes we think you’ll love: Lewis Howes Solo [7 Habits To Be Happier] Josh Groban The Jonas Brothers TOPICS Joel Kinnaman, stage fright, eating disorder recovery, pectus excavatum, performance anxiety, preparation as armor, shepa, psilocybin, self-loathing, personal growth, For All Mankind, relationship consistency Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy!Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

I was having a panic attack in front of the whole school. I blacked out on stage. And then I started stumbling on the word, and I was like, I couldn't quite latch on. And then finally, I, like, stood up and I went like, Fess! And then I walked off. The whole school was just sitting watching me,

like, oh, he's having an emotional breakdown. He is an actor who has starred in some of Hollywood's biggest franchises. But behind the action hero, Action Hero Exterior is a man who has had to do the inner work in order to achieve the level of success that he has achieved. We have the inspiring Joel Kinnaman in the house. I was in the abyss. Something in me is telling me that I can't do this. I can't eat. I'm throwing up and now I'm having like panic attacks. My constitution can't handle this. How have you been able to navigate eating disorder, stage fright and panic attacks while also being at the top of Hollywood? I started thinking about these, like, forces in me, what would provoke them the most?

Like, let's go to fucking war. You've been a massive star, and you've had an incredible career, and right now you have three different shows on TV. You've got multiple shows and productions. You are one of the most in-demand actors out there. But you've also talked about a few different things with me and also publicly. One, an eating disorder that you've had in the past. Yeah. debilitating stage fright, which I wasn't even aware of that, and panic attacks.

Yeah. But you have been able to be so like on top of your game and accomplish and achieve and perform so well under pressure. But how have you been able to navigate eating disorder, stage fright, and panic attacks while also being at the top of Hollywood? Yeah, I think, I mean, a lot of those issues were stuff that I was like dealing with earlier on. and it was sort of coming into my own, coming into like an adulthood. And I think I was, I'm also sort of still unpacking a little bit of what I was going through. And I mean, I think some of it was like youthful insecurity. Some of it was like a lot of bad habits.

I was drinking a lot, doing a lot of drugs. And then just I hadn't learned how to deal with like the shadow. and the negative voices in my mind and how I had you know all these like different conflicting feelings about myself and you know dealing with self-loathing and not letting myself have success you know so really whenever when you know when whenever I would get close to something that was would potentially be like a big step or or something that was anything that was scary you know I would have these voices in my head that would really like

me up and would like speak to me in the most harsh way and what would the voices say like you're not you're not deserving of this success or this is too big for you or you're not ready for it or it would just it was kind of just be like chatter and and and it's just negative yeah yeah it's hard to put words on the exact words that it was saying but it was like like negative energy that you know that I would fail that I wouldn't succeed that I'm not worthy and yeah so I had I had I had really bad, like, it actually started earlier, but even before I was acting, it was, I have, and still have, like, a pectus excavatum where I have like a small indentation in my chest. I used to have like a much bigger indentation in the chest.

I did a sort of a corrective surgery when, about 10 years ago. And after that, I just wanted to be, you couldn't catch me with the shirt on after that. When I grew up, like, I had this like indentation in my chest. and it was pretty they grade that like from a one to ten severity and I think I had like a seven and a half so it was pretty chest was like it was like sunken in and it affected my posture so I was like forward and inward rotated and then I think also my shame around that made that you know I had like this kind of a posture and so and I would like in a thuggy way right right right I felt like I was deformed and I was very ashamed of the way I would never take my shirt off.

Was this 10 years ago? No, this was longer ago. This was like when I was like 18, 19. Okay, okay, gotcha. Even earlier, like 17, 17, 18. And were you in the acting world back then? No. This one, you were in Sweden, right?

So then this was back in Sweden, yeah, yeah. And then I was kind of living a pretty negative life. I was partying a lot, getting into trouble, doing a lot of drugs, kind of aimless, pretty lost. And then I found acting. And it was the first time I really felt like there was something like, there was a potential that life could be positive and life could be good. Like, and life could even become maybe special.

And it really like caught on to me. And I got, I had a couple of experiences early on where I had the courage to like apply for theater school. And, uh, and while preparing. for that theater school I was working with a professional actor and had like an experience while I was preparing this monologue from Long Day's Journey into night and it was for it clicked in in a special way and I realized later it was the first time I experienced flow and all these emotions came out and the words came out in a way that I hadn't really planned it and it connected to my

relationship with my own father and it just like became something explosive and and this teacher or actor, you know, he sort of was the first one to really encourage me in the way where he said, like, look, you could do this for a profession if you want to. And then it just like it caught on like a virus in me and I became completely obsessed. You're what, 18, 19, 20? 21. Really? So you're really to get to do any theater or acting? No, I was in a TV series when I was 10 years old. Okay. So I had a childhood experience of acting and then that kind of felt it. the wayside. I just did that and had a childhood experience of it. And then that kind of disappeared. But I did have a relationship to the profession in a way. And I think that's why even in this kind of low state that I was in, the idea of acting, the seed had been planted even like at an earlier stage. Yeah. And so then I started like applying for this theater school and and then eventually I didn't get in right away. I think I got the fourth attempt. Wow. Then like this nervousness just caught on again and it attached and this like these

this kind of chatter and these negative thoughts like latched on to that with a vengeance. And then I was dealing with it every time I went on stage, every time before, as soon as I heard the audience chatter, like the audience murmur. like my mouth would like filled with water and I was like okay here we go and I would actually I would have a bucket prepared and I would like yeah come on what yeah before well this is stage there huh this is like on stage yeah but it could even be like you know just as you know 10 people in the audience really you throw up almost every time every time come on before every live performance yeah the first three four years of of doing theater.

It was, uh, I mean, that can't be enjoyable after the first year. You're like, okay, is this going to ever end? No, it was brutal. It was brutal. And, um, and then I started getting like, uh, panic attacks too, like blacked out on stage in front of- In the middle of the audience? Yeah. No.

This was in front of the whole school. Like all the students and all the teachers, we were doing this like storytelling project. It was like three years in. And, um, and I, uh, yeah, I, I hadn't prepared properly. And it was just a storytelling thing. We were going to tell a part of a novel. Like 100 years of solitude, Gabriel Garcia-Marquez.

And I was telling this one segment of the story, and we were four actors on stage, and I was number two. So three and four had to wait until I was done to tell their story. So it was like everyone was dependent on each other. And I started out, and then I started stumbling on a word, and I was like, and then people kind of laughed a little bit in the audience. they thought that like, oh, this is, this was like kind of baked in. He was, he's, this is, this is, he meant to do this.

And then, but I couldn't quite like latch on. And, and eventually, yeah, I just completely like lost my shit. And, uh, did you just blank and I, I, I kept saying this one sentence over and over again, like, Donna Maria. Donna Maria. And it was just like, and then it was this empty void. And it was like, and I realized later, like, I was having a panic attack in front of the whole school and all the audience. And, and it went on for, I think, in real time, about three minutes.

But it felt like three hours. I mean, that felt like three years. And it was like, and, and there was a lot of, you know, because in school, you know, those, in theater schools, like the, the, when you're playing up for the other students, everyone is like laughing extra much. So there was a lot of people that were like, ha ha ha, ha, they still thought that it was like, part of it. And then that slowly started to die out. And there was just this one like crazy Polish teacher. He was like, ah, ha, ah, he thought for a good two minutes and 50 seconds, he thought that it was still like, the rest of the audience, it had like settled like, oh, he's having an emotional breakdown. And we're watching.

Oh, wow. And then finally, like, I, like, stood up and I went like, this. And then I walked off. I walked off across the whole stage, and there was a door on the other side. And I opened the door, and then I just hit like, and I slammed the door, kicked the closed door. And then I just stood there for like a couple of seconds. Like everyone in the whole school was just sitting watching me, like watching this like unfold. And then and then I walked back down.

I sat down. and I think I said again like and then I was like this book and everyone was like wow and then and then I started over and then I told the whole thing mechanically like a robot

and then I was done and then I'm like I'm done and then I looked over to the person after and my friend who was in the class just looked at me and like after this whole thing she was like now you want me to continue telling the story with the book like like anyone is listening to listening to the story of the book. I'm like, thanks. Best layup ever. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah.

I mean, that seems like a, I don't know how I would be able to rebound from that. Like emotionally, specifically if you're 23 or something and you're with your peers in school and professors. Yeah. It feels so much bigger than it actually is. Yeah. It feels like my world is over type of mentality. Yeah. Maybe it didn't, but for you. No, no, 100% it did. Like total humiliation, embarrassment, how did you learn how to have the career you have with that not holding you back to the next step? Yeah. I mean, it became like the seminal moment for me. And I sort of like trace back like whatever kind of set my career apart from some of the people that I grew up with and came up with and people that I thought were like way more talented than me. And it's sort of like

traces a little bit back to this and how I dealt with this. really was like the moment for me and how I dealt with it. Wow. It's for me that like it, that sent me like into an abyss. I was, it was like the, the darkest period that I can remember. It felt like I was in an abyss because, you know, I've been living this sort of negative, empty life without really any real hope for the future. And, and, you know, I didn't, I actually didn't finish Swedish high school. I, I, uh, I was there, but I didn't get like my final grades. Last year of school, I was there 40% of the time.

So it was, I was already kind of like... You're like a troublemaker. I was not like doing the right things. And I, you know, at best I was like, maybe I'll like be a bartender and then maybe one point I'll have my own bar or something like that. That's sort of as far as I was, my dreams went. before this sort of acting thing and then the sort of

the potential of this whole other life and this feeling of like you know, connecting with the text and then seeing like the effect that it had on people that saw it and like feeling like something that felt like respect and promise, you know. So it was this whole potential of a world of a life that was there

and then when I was, And getting into this national theater school, that was a huge deal. In Sweden. In Sweden. It was very difficult to get in, actually. What's it called? It's a national theater school. And it's like that is the like when you go there, you study for four years.

I think now it's three, but then it was four years. After that, you are an actor. Like that is your profession. You actually have like a PhD in acting. It's like it's a. And you're getting booked for gigs in Sweden or you're getting opportunity. You know, it's still not an easy life, you know. I think the average thing is like two years after that school, like 50% are like unemployed.

You know, so it's still like it's not like your life is said. But you, in the eyes of society, you are an actor, which actually means something different in Scandinavia and in Europe than it does here. Because here, like any waiter at a restaurant is an actor because they did, you know, a couple of voiceover things in a commercial. It's different. You feel the essence that it's an old profession that demands respect and and it's like It's looked out with more respect there. It is. And it's also you don't say that you are an actor unless you are.

And it's like and being an actor is like then you're working in the theater and you're regularly like doing job. It's like it just has a different weight to say that you are. Sure. At least it did 20 years ago. Yeah, yeah. I don't know, maybe things have changed. Sure, sure, sure.

So to get in there and it was like, you know, every year is like 10 spots. Oh, that's it. And it's like about, you know, 1,000 to 1,500 people applying. And the tryouts are go for over two weeks. And actually three weeks. And the last two, like tryout three and four are a week each. And you're there like, you know, 12 hours a day for a week for each. and you're like doing all these different tests and so you were one of 10 out of a thousand yeah got applied yeah wow and um so like getting in was like it has begun you know like i was on this path and and i like things were i was feeling good like there were there were times when we were doing stuff i was like i crushed it pretty good like i like i felt like i i genuinely felt like some of the the the stuff that i had gone through when i was a kid and in my teens and um

And my personality that, you know, I hung out with a lot of guys that then ended up becoming like career criminals. And but at the same time, I sort of came from a household with a lot of women and mom was a therapist. I was used to talking about my feelings. I had this sort of this little blend in my personality that I was already noticing, like, I can be like a little intimidating and dominant. But I'm also like, it's pretty easy for me to be vulnerable and sensitive. And I could just feel like it's lending itself. These qualities, I can find myself in all these different kinds of characters. Anyway, so, like, I was in the abyss there because I was feeling that, like, it's, like, something in me is telling me that I can't do this.

And it's like, I'm not being able to, I can't eat, I'm throwing up, and now I'm having, like, panic attacks. It's like my constitution can't handle this. So I guess I should quit, you know? And that idea, with the notion of that, was just like so devastating. It was like, that was literally like giving up on life. It was like, I'm, you know, I've never been suicidal, but that was like the closest to like, you know, that just felt like giving up on any promise of life. So it was so devastating to me.

And I think that because the stakes of that was so big, I was able to like challenge myself in the way that I've... So I started thinking about like, I can't do that. Like, I can't do that. But I can't continue. I can't continue like this. I'm like having panic attacks. I'm throwing up all the time.

I'm throwing up every, it's unbearable, it's unbearable. So what do you do? So I started thinking, like, what is the worst thing that these voices, these, like, what would provoke my demons the most? Like, what is the scariest thing that I could possibly do? And then, right after the storytelling exercise, we had this, the next sort of block in our school was we got to do our own projects. and we had a month to prepare for whatever we wanted to. Like a monologue show or something. Yeah.

Scenes or whatever, yeah. But most of, basically everyone kind of took it as an opportunity to take a little bit of a break. And they did like, people got together like four people doing two scenes from a big play and just like really worked on those. And people weren't like challenging themselves that much. I was like, I need to figure this out and I'm going to use this time. And so I started thinking like, what is the worst thing that these voices, these like forces in me, what would provoke them the most? Like, let's go to war.

You know, that's my. And then the scariest thing that I could imagine would be to do like a monologue, a monologue on stage with no sonography, nothing, just me on an empty stage. No support. Nothing. And there was this one play called Howie the Rookie that I'd seen. And it's written for two actors where the first storyteller is also a character. And the second storyteller is also a character.

And the first storyteller tells the story up at a certain point. And then the second storyteller takes over. And you realize that the second storyteller was a character in the first one. And the first storyteller is a character in the second one. Oh, interesting. So they're both like characters in the story. And I did both. And I started, I was really obsessed with like old stand-up.

I was obsessed with Richard Pryor. And the way that he told stories and he would, you know, he would put like voices in life on like inanimate objects. Like, you know, like the car went, you know, like it. And then he would be like, the dog came up. And it's like, well, why don't hang, on that too long and he had this way

of looking you know it was like this sort of monologue way of you know talking you know

talking to himself but embodying different characters and for some reason I had a friend who was like suggested that maybe I do it a little bit like that

and then I dove into that and I just started working on this play like a lunatic like madman and I did nothing but work on this play and I ended up um I ended up creating 16 different characters oh my gosh that all had a different body language different movement different voice and they

would all talk to each other and but then I would do like slight variations of them based on the different storytellers uh because it was in two versions and then the the you know the storytellers were also characters wow and and I started like working on this like a psychopath and 10 days in, and the monologue ended up being like an hour 45, 10 days in, I was completely off book. I was like completely off book. I was just like running it, running it, running it, doing it, doing it. I'm like, off book meaning you're not reading it anymore. I'm not reading off the script. You had it memorized. Yeah, I had a memorize. Holy cow. And it's funny actually how memory works, because it's, when you, when you, inactive people often say like, how do you,

like memorize things. But it's almost like memory is like comes like this. It's like on top over. It's not like you start remembering from A to B and then C and then D. It's like all of a sudden you remember everything from like A to D and then you remember like K to P. You know, it's like and then all of a sudden you like it's just like sinks down and then you have all these blocks. And then when we played it up for the school, like I murdered it. It was going. I annihilated it. I didn't have a stumble.

I was like, I was so lazy because it literally felt like my life was depending on it. And I worked so hard on it. I worked, it was like day and night. I worked on it. I didn't let it out of my mind. It was like there was no distractions because there was nothing else. So nothing could distract me. It was like, I was in this bubble.

like trying to save my life. You became the characters. Oh, like, beyond that. It was like, but it was like, it was very, it was just like hard work. Like, I mean, honestly, it doesn't feel like work when you, especially not when your life depends on it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Didn't throw up before I went on stage. Interesting, your first time. Yeah. Before the three years prior to that where you were throwing up constantly before. Yeah. Performance. Were you thinking, I'm worried about what everyone's gonna think about

my performance or I hope I do well or I hope that I don't mess. up. Did you have those thoughts at all? I think all of them, you know, afraid, like any, any kind of, like, fear would, like, I would let take hold. But this time, did you have that same fear, insecurity or worry? It actually, like, I didn't entirely defeat the throw-up there. It was the first time. I didn't, I think I threw up, like, a couple more times. After that, yeah, yeah. After that, there was one other, another project that happened that had it its own sort of psychology that ultimately, like, killed that for me.

Like, it killed the throwing up thing. But this was like, it was a success. And in terms of the throwing up, it was like, it was a big step forward. What happened for your mindset of belief after that, though? Did you start to believe, oh, I can take on any acting challenge there is? And I know I can crush it as long as I commit to it. Did others start to say, oh, we're looking at him differently than the rest of his peers? I'm not aware of how other people perceived it.

I wasn't thinking, or at least I don't remember about that. But for me, it was I really got out of my own way. And my confidence, like, really, like, boosted. But it was so much of my confidence about how I dealt with adversity. And it's actually, like, that stuck with me ever since. Still, like, if I'm feeling like afraid, I've learned how to face my fears through that. That was like, it was the first time it taught me how to like face my fears head on. When you have a big, a fearful moment now, whether it's a big scene or I don't know, a big actor you're working with that you're like really respect or whatever it is.

Yeah. How do you think and approach fear so that it doesn't take over you? Prepare. Preparation. It's all about preparation. To just like do everything that I can to prepare, control what I can control. Like it's like you can't control if a director is going to have a bad day and don't like you or if your co-star is like a narcissistic egomaniac and feeds off of other people's insecurity

and it's going to try to push you down. You know, you can't control those things, but you can control how prepared you are to face everything. And so, like, to come in, like, so, like, because that's, like, your armor. Like, the preparation is your armor. And then, especially as an actor, like, the number one thing. But it's like, you'd be surprised how often you face actors who, like, don't quite know their lines. Really? Yeah.

It's like, it's like, even when you're, you mean, like, right before the scene or, like, in the scene? Like, like, on the day, you know? Come on. You see them like studying their lines like like she'd done that a while ago, buddy. So preparation I'm hearing is what helps you overcome fear and make you feel more confident. Yeah. But we were just talking beforehand, you know, during the workout that for a shoot like for all mankind, which is in its fifth season now. Is that right?

Fifth season. Yeah. You're playing an older character. So you have to do five hours of makeup. You have a 1 a.m. call time. Yeah. You're in a chair, you know, with makeup on you for five hours. you're going into shooting at 7 a.m., then you do a 12-hour day, how do you prepare for the next day

when you're exhausted? How do you learn and embody the lines and the character scenes and the emotions of tomorrow when you've given everything for today and you're barely going to sleep? Well, I've had a lot of real jobs. So, like, I know how lucky I am that I get to do this for a living. So like when things can be a little mentally challenging in in my like pretend job, it's easy to go to that and just like kind of find gratitude. And for me, gratitude helps my discipline. But, you know, it's about finding time. For me, it's like I have a structure of like just especially when you're on a series. You know, you don't get that much time before to get the scripts often and often there's like revisions and stuff.

But I always make sure that I have at least, and there's a minimum, that I'm working on a scene for three nights. Before the scene. Yeah. And the memory is like, it's not so important, like how long I work, but it's that I work, sleep, work, sleep, work sleep. Because it's like in the sleep that the memorization happens. So I have to have three, minimum three. So I'm always like at least three nights ahead on everything that I'm working on. But I like to be five nights ahead because that's when it's like really solid.

And for me, it's like the preparation, the more prepared I am, the deeper in my bones the text is, the more freedom I have to improvise and play with it and like to go away from the text. Because like if you're if you're really prepared, then you really know the scene and you know the other person's lines. And so then if you start improvising or something happens, like a mistake, someone stumbles and the scene. then you can roll with it. And then because you know the scene, it's going to be much easier to find a creative way of using it and then getting back into the scene.

So you can actually use it and you actually be able to use that little moment of reality that happened, you know, that can like infuse a scene with life that just, oh shit, didn't feel like it was rehearsed at all. Right, right, right. So like all that is like preparation. It gives you the freedom and the looseness.

If you're trying to remember your line or thinking to remember your line in any way, then there's a little tenseness that builds up. There's a little tension in you that takes away from the presence and the relaxation. And I think everyone, you know, even if you're playing like a character that's tense, there's a way to be tense, but loose, you know. And I think, and when I watch things, you really want to see someone that's loose. And you probably feel even more pressure because you've got to. got whatever, 50 people counting on you for those hours that day in production, that if you

don't remember your lines, you might have more stress on yourself. And I don't want to mess this up to waste the time. And yeah, and then it just becomes like getting one that works instead of having five great options. And it's also like when you're leading a show, you know, you set the, tone and you want to lead by example. When did you get kind of your first big break or the first few breaks where you're like oh maybe I can do this and actually make a full-time living not just be considered an actor in Sweden but really make an abundant life for myself yeah and well after that thing that happened in school and my first big job that I got but my first job out of school was would have been like a nerve-wracking thing for anyone

it was one of Sweden's great maybe greatest playwrights he had just taken taking the helm of a new national theater, the National Theater of Gothenburg. And his opening statement, his opening play, he had done a complete new rendition of crime and punishment. And then he asked me to do Roskolnikov, which is incredibly demanding and incredible role.

And it ended up being three hours and 45 minutes, and I was on stage for the entirety of it. So as like an opening of a new national theater with that kind of, it was like all as big as a play can get in Sweden. But after my monologue, like, it felt like a easy, like cakewalk. Really? Yeah, I have other actors here, like, you know, to talk to. And it, not, I mean, I shouldn't exaggerate like a cakewalk, but it was like, it was manageable.

Like the nerves were manageable. And, and I was like more just like enjoying it. I'd like broken through that sort of kind of like shimmer of like fear and anxiety that I was like living in and before that I broke through like every now and then and like oh I felt the light in the sun on my face and now I like kind of broken through and like I was really like enjoying my work and enjoying it like living in it being there and I could like focus on the actual work. What was the psychology then that broke the throw up nerves? Because you said, like, later I found out the psychology of what that was. Yeah, it was actually, like, it was with the same director. So he was working. He, after the own projects that we did, we were allowed to go out to a theater and do six months at a theater.

And usually you'd get, like, these small parts. You know, you'd come in and say, the king is dead and then you walk out, you know. It was like the semester where you got to sort of practice of being in a real theater. But very often the students didn't get like substantial work. He had this play where the lead actor had gotten sick and had to bail. And it was right before, like the week before opening, he had to like stop. He had an issue with his brain. It was tragic.

He recovered later and he's doing great. So they were like in this like limbo. They needed a replacement. but that was the lead role and so I went to Gothenburg and and like any auditioned me for it and and it was like cold read but I was like reading it and and I felt like I like connected with with the material I was playing a 12 year old and I like even at the cold read I like found like in me a little bit how to be a kid in my body and and so so then I got that I got the gig and and then it was if

it was supposed to be after the summer I had like four weeks and then after the summer at a three-day rehearsal and then they said, you know, and it's fine if, you know, for the first couple of weeks, you know, like if you have the script with you, you're more there like sort of as a placeholder to make it flow, you know, because we don't have proper rehearsal time for you. But this would be for a live audience. Yeah. They're saying you can have the script of a live audience. Yeah, it was like, I don't know. Interesting. Yeah. But I mean, I was never going to do that. So I had like a month. So. I learned the whole thing and I was, so I showed up at the first rehearsal and... No script. No, no, no. And it was, it was a really good vibe, you know, with the... Everyone was very happy.

Yeah. And I think that because I was like the replacement that nobody had any expectation on and then exceeded everyone's expectation, I didn't have any nerves. Like the pressure was kind of off of me. And because I had also prepared so hard, and then I had this experience of like, so this like sort of this thing of like preparation is going to be my salvation. It had sort of like that had like sort of sunk in. So I think I still have that. Like I'm, you know, and I don't always live up to it enough for myself anymore.

But there's something with, you know, like I love to come and like. show the people I'm working with what I've been cooking up, you know? And that sort of makes it more fun than nervousness. But so that was the play that like after that experience, then the throwing up was gone. I haven't done it since. Wow, that's great. Until today. Now you're starting to like build a name, I'm assuming, in Sweden.

Now here's this college kid who's now crushed this, you know, a new theater thing. And I'm assuming you got some other gigs after that. But when did you finally feel like, oh, I'm actually starting to make this thing work financially and, oh, Hollywood's calling and, you know, other things are happening? Yeah, I had like a crazy period after I was doing this play and it got a lot of attention. And then I got my first lead role in a film at the same time. But it was shooting in Stockholm and I was doing this playing Gothenburg. And it was the lead in both and exactly the same time. But for some reason, the film agreed to try to figure out the schedule.

And so the way that we did it was I shot in Stockholm during the nights. And then I would sleep on the train. Come on. And then do the play. The next day? Daytime. So I would go back and forth. And then you'd drive back at night after the play?

I had a couple of weeks where I slept eight hours per week. I would never do that again. I almost lost my mind. You're 24. You're free, I can do anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know. Like, it was like four mons.

Yeah. And it was also, there was, you know, I was playing Roscoldniko too, who is also, like, he's schizophrenic. Oh my God. Like, I mean, that's an interpretation of Roscoldegolde, but Roscoll in, in, in, in Russian means divided. And so that's how I interpret him that he had, like, schizophrenia. And the way that I was playing it in the,

in the theater was that, because I really like the idea of like kind of, when you're playing theater, you know, there's a fourth wall, right? And you, but you sort of ignore everything that happens in the audience. So it's the fourth wall there. But there's something that is fake about that, right? It's like, because you're in the same room. And one of the, one of the beautiful things about doing theater is that you're in the same room. And then, of course, there's theater where you break the fourth wall and you're like, you take in the audience and all that. But then that can kind of pull you out of the story, too. But I found this way, because we were playing this, we did, we had a bunch of like daytime shows where we would play for like high school students.

You know, some of them that were like on their phones and, you know, they didn't ask to come there. They were like, Jesus Christ, fucking three hours of, fucking Dostoevsky. It's not what they asked for. And so what I would do is like, because I was like sort of hearing voices like in the character. Which is distracting also. So like, if I heard someone like talking in the audience, I would be in a scene and I was, we rehearsed for four months. So I was like, I was so deep in it. I, like, I knew the material and the text so well.

I had such confidence in the material. So I could be, like, in the middle of a monologue. And then I'd hear, like, some kids talking. I'd be like, what, what did you say? You know, and then I'd walk up to them, and I was like, what? What? And then, and then they'd be quiet. And I'd be like, and I would play it as if it was, like, my voices in my head.

And then it gets everyone's attention. And also, then all the kids stop talking because they don't. want to be called out, you know. And then, and then I would just be able to, like, fold back into the, the, the monologue or the, the conversation. But then when I was doing this back and forth, um, and not sleeping, he really became schizophrenic. Like, like, my patience was getting like a little bit, like, low. And sometimes these kids were like, annoying and they'd be like, so I'd be like, what? And then they'd keep talking. And then I'd be like, shut up. Shut up, shut up, and I'd go up and, like, almost confront them.

But in my mind, I was doing it, like, I'm confronting my inner demons. But, you know, sometimes I was wearing an axe. I was not wearing, but I was holding an axe in my hand. And then I would be standing, like, and there was these kids that were, like, talking, and at first they were laughing. And I'm like, you think that's funny?

I'll kill you! And I was standing with an axe. And after we had, like, a couple of crisis meetings within the theater after, And they were like, Joel, you cannot threaten the children in the audience. You cannot tell them that you're going to kill them. That is unacceptable. This is like...

You like, I'm an actor. And I was like, I need to sleep. I mean, I thought it was great because it was like, I thought I never like broke character. I was always that, but yeah, it was that some kids were a little traumatized, I think. And then when the play was done, then I ended up doing six feature films. Holy cow. In 16 months. And in Sweden, we do like 20 films a year in the whole.

So I was like really, I was just like working so much. For me, success prior to that looked like, you know, working in theater and then occasionally like getting a job in front of the camera. That's like, that was success. And then without really having thought much about it, I had exceeded my own expectations, like, by a long shot. Within a year. So I think that's when I was like, huh, you know, maybe I could do something else, you know.

Was Hollywood or like the big screen in L.A. ever an idea or a dream? Or was more like, I just want to be in Sweden. I want to crush it here and make money and be respected. It was never like a real, it wasn't a thing, you know, because for me, it was like, not being a loser. It was like the first, that was the first day. dream and then it was like okay like I'm an actor like that that was such a victory so then it was like being a working actor like that's victory um being able to like because also a lot of actors that even they go they go through the artist tax of like getting into the national theater

school a couple of years later they're like really struggling um so it's not like it's uh guaranteed thing no so so for me like to be someone that like gets to work and like I'm in the theater and every now and then I get to do like a part in a TV series or part in a movie. And then it was like I smashed that without like really the things were happening without me like sort of setting the goal for it. It was more like I was like winning against my own demons and then all this other stuff kind of just came. And then they were casting for Thor, like the first Thor movie. Right in the beginning of the first wave of Marvel movies. and uh what was this what year is this 2008 okay something like that yeah and then of course they

were looking in the scandinavian countries he's uh you know he's a norse god so you're around what 30 now 28 30 30 yeah 28 28 28 29 and then i got this from my swedish agent they were like this is like uh they want you to put put yourself on tape i was like what's that like never heard of that no like but let me put put myself on the tape they were like a record i was like a record i was like with the video cameras, I got to record it. Okay. Okay. So I did it. And then I got this text.

And Kenneth Branagh was the director of it. Had like a little Shakespearean feel to it. And I'd never really played in English. But my father was American, so I was like loose with English. English was an emotional language for me. You know, a lot of people that learn a second language, it's hard to be like to express your emotions. To own it.

Yeah. Yeah. But for me, that was never. the case with English since I grew up speaking with my dad. And then I put myself on tape for this and I had a friend like film it. It was like all dark in like living room. My old studio apartment on the south side. And we sent it in and I didn't think much more about it. It kind of, it was like a novel exercise but I didn't, you know, paint much of mind to it. But I felt like I kind of put, kind of put my stink on that one. Yeah, I crushed that one. Yeah. And I had like, I had like,

a tear coming down. It was like, I was not too shabby, you know. Send it off, but didn't think, think much more about it. And then my, my, one of my sisters, she was like, hey, it was two weeks later. She was like, hey, there's like a picture of you in The Guardian. I was like, the Guardian, what's the Guardian? She was like, the British newspaper. I was like, what? She's like, it says something about Thor. It's like, Thor. They're posting pictures of people that, like, like, like sending tapes. Yeah. Like, what's going on?

It's like strange. And then she sent me the article and it was like, oh, the four, like, it's now down to like four people to play Thor. And you didn't even know. I hadn't heard anything. So I was like, what? That's crazy. Yeah.

So I was like, um, so it was like me, uh, Chris Hemsworth and I think Tom Hiddleston and then some other guy. I was like, oh, that's so weird. Like, yeah. Your agent doesn't tell you. Yeah. No. No.

So then I called them. I was like, hey, they were like, yeah, we heard something about that. I was like, so what does this mean? And then, and I was still, oh, that's right, I was still shooting the movie and, and I was doing another movie. Right, I was shooting another movie and I was doing a new run of the play. So I was like, I didn't have a day off in the upcoming two months. It was like, I was, it was, right, I was doing easy money. That's what it was.

I was shooting easy money. and and then we started up a new run of crime and punishment so it was like it was all again one of these schedules where i was like working every day for for two months and they were like asking me to come to new york to do like a screen test with natalie portman and then i couldn't do that really sent in another tape and uh and yeah i didn't get it but uh but that's when that's like oh maybe this isn't so hard Maybe it's not that far away. And then my manager, Shelley, who I still work with, she came to Sweden and sat down and had a meeting with me.

It was like, I really think you should come over here. And then I was like, yeah, I'm open to that. And then a few months later, I decided to give it a shot. And then I moved over. Really? So that's when you moved to L.A. I moved to L.A. And now when you moved there, you're thinking, okay, she's.

going to put me out on auditions or I want to meet people or what's the what's the mindset. Yeah, so I did a couple of more like self-tapes. I did like a self-tape from Mad Max and was like apparently like in the mix for that as well. So I was like, I think this is going to be pretty easy, you know? Yeah. I was like, I think I got this. And and then when I came to the, I came to to LA and and I got like set up with an agent. So I kind of came, I got like a whole setup right away, which, which is like makes it so much easier. And you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You have a team. I have friends who like come over that didn't quite make it in Sweden and then they come to LA and try to, I'm like, I think you should like focus on Sweden first and then like, try to be a big fish in a small pond first and then. But then I've really struggled. Really? Yeah. I mean, for me, that's how I felt.

And I think it was like four or five months. I didn't get anything. And for me, that was like the most rejection I had ever gotten in the acting because I was doing auditions, like weekly. Getting it. Nothing, getting nothing. I mean, back in Sweden, you were doing work constantly.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And sort of like blowing up there. When I'd moved to the U.S., then all of a sudden I became, all the stuff that I'd done came out in Sweden while I was in the U.S. And then I became really famous in Sweden. Really?

Like, really famous. And, but I was in the U.S., so I was like, you know who you were. Yeah. Still here. I was like looking at this like Facebook page, like half a million? And it wasn't even mine. It was like someone else. Bad page.

Yeah, exactly. It was a weird, weird experience to follow it from the far. You have all this success in your home country. Yeah. And then I was like, I was just like bombing on every. Really? You know, I just couldn't even get a call back. When did the opportunity finally break for you then?

And then, and it was actually, I went home to Sweden for Christmas break. I had this movie, like, easy money come out that became like a big hit in Sweden. And then I got this audition for The Killing. And I did that in my friend's apartment. So I think like the mojo of like doing the tapes in like apartments in Stockholm was better than. Yeah. Yeah, I sent that in. And then they wanted to see me again on the Killing and it did it a couple of times.

And then I got that. And then that's when it sort of started in the U.S. That was my first job in the U.S. That was what, 2009, 10? Yeah, I moved to L.A. end of, like in September, 2009, and I think I booked a killing in like January, 2010, something like that. So it's been 16 years of success now.

Has there been any down seasons in the last 16 years? Because it seems like every year you're doing a few things that come out. I mean, a career has like, you know, like these little, I mean, I've been working consistently, but it was like, I was doing the killing. I was not grateful enough to that, what that was. I was like, I want to be a movie star. I was like, there was a while there where I was like, I was getting a little too cocky. Really? Yeah, for sure. And I was like, this show, I want to be a movie star.

But now TV shows are like the big thing. Oh, yeah, yeah. But that was still like, back in the day where there was like movie star who was like, doing movies was like a level up. And then I got Robocop. and then I understood how this whole sort of like value system in the industry works and it's like you're like a stock. How's that work? Well, it's like, so I got this, you know, this was like, you know, very well-known brand, sort of potential franchise, you know, everyone thought that was going to be a franchise and

Robocop or? Yeah, Robocop, you know, like it was a new rendition of Robocop. And I got that off like a, you know, cool series. And then everyone is kind of like placing bets on you as if Robocop is going to be a hit. Before it comes out. Because in the interim, yeah, so that's like the hot period, right? Like after you've done it and it had pretty good like internal buzz, like it was looking good. But it hasn't come out yet.

It hasn't come out yet. But they're selling you as like. So then people are like placing bets on you. So you get a couple like you get a couple of chances that regardless if it's. hits or not. Interesting. Yeah. You got to get something in there, you know. It's like the next vine. You know, I got to grab on to the next vine that will swing you along. What did you get during that season when they were editing Robocop and they're, oh, this is going to be a big thing? So I had, I got run all night, which was this movie with Liam. It was like a Warner

Brothers movie with Liam Neeson. There was another one I could have done this guy, Richie movie, that but I had already said yes to this other director so I was going to honor that but yeah and then and then Robocop um it didn't really it did okay like it was like it wasn't a bomb it ended up making money but like it took a while it wasn't a hit it was not a hit it like and it didn't I remember the Lego movie like opened above it oh yeah and it was also it was a little bit bad luck because it was like the whole eastern seaboard was shut down on the opening weekend because it was like this winter storm and these like little things that like you know that probably took like five million off of it and then five million on that opening would have probably made it a hit you know it would have been a moderate enough hit that they you know green lit a second one but so they didn't and then and then all of a sudden that was the first time in my career where i felt like it was it like went down a little bit your stock went down? Yeah, my stock went down a little bit. And it was still like my stock was still way better

than it was like two years ago, but it was a little bit down from there. This is what I want to know then, Joel. How do you, when your work goes down in the eyes of the industry, how does your self-worth navigate that? Does your self-worth go down? Or how do you keep confidence when you're not getting the external results that you desire? Yeah. That was actually, interesting time because I think that was it was a period where I started partying I started doing a lot of blow L.A. life huh? Yeah I was living in Hollywood a lot of cocaine really like cocaine two three sometimes four times a week come on yeah so you're in the Hollywood life yeah yeah yeah you got caught up in the scene yeah you know so wow and

then and then I felt like and then I so it was in that And then I felt like the career was going a little bit down. I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. And then I had a moment with myself. I was like, okay, let's like take a step back here. Like, what's going on here? And then I was like, the scripts I was getting sent to me were like, like, this is not, this is not as good.

Like, this is not, I'm not getting the things that I want to do at all. And this is a big difference from what it was just a year ago. And like the level of the scripts and like how interesting the characters are. then I like kind of uh shape myself up like stop partying and then and then I said to my representation is like like I just need to go out and audition like because I wasn't really auditioning because I was getting sent scripts I was like like I want to audition for everything really like I want to like show people what I can do like remind people what I can do before all you did was a couple self-tapes so you got some gigs and then you just kept getting sense yeah

and all of a sudden it was starting to roll and I was getting script sent to me, which is like so much nicer. Right, right. So you didn't have to do the LA thing where a lot of actors have to go and audition. Well, I did that for the horror before the killing. Gotcha. Yeah. And then that kind of changed it.

So then I was getting offers for things. So then I went out and just started like auditioning for things. How long was that like six months or something or? No, it wasn't. It wasn't that long. It was like a few months. Yeah, a few months. But you got back in the reps.

got let me prepare let me like and then and then I was like I was approaching the auditions like with a chip on my shoulder I would be like I would so I sort of went back a little bit to the same I I was like over preparing for these uh interesting for these auditions and and like I was like I'm going to do like incredible scenes out of these auditions that was sort of my mindset murder ears crushing I thought it was some pretty cool stuff like I was And it's kind of got me fired up. And what was the response? And the thing was that it did create,

I sort of had a gut feeling that that would create some positive momentum. And it did, and it was like it showed my work to a couple of, like, casting agents that maybe weren't like that familiar. And then that led to auditioning for suicide squad. And then I got suicide squad and then that was kind of the next vine that kind of swung me to the next What do you feel like it was the biggest show or project or movie that you did that really kind of took you to the biggest level? I mean, I don't think I've had that like one thing, you know? Really?

I think I've had, it's more kind of like consistent work. But it's the collection of just hit after hit. Yeah. What was the highest grossing project then? And then what was the one that you felt like you did your best work? I think the highest grossing was probably the first suicide squad. It was like close to a billion But it was like the critical reception of that was pretty muted and then to say the best

And then the second suicide squad James Gunn suicide squad I mean that one would have smashed at the box office, but it opened right as the Delta wave hit during COVID So it was it was one of those things where it was like it had we known? that it was going to come, they would have pulled the release and waited for, you know, but so it was like really bad. It was like,

they went ahead with the whole like launching campaign because things were opening up and then the Delta Wave hit and right like the weekend before we opened, like everything shut down. So it like had a,

it didn't have. But I think it had like a cultural impact because people saw it. Where do you feel like you did your best work? You've done so many different projects. theater, TV, film. I think definitely like Raskolnikov play

was, I think that's really up there, but it was, I mean, that's such a long time ago, so hopefully I've gotten better than that. I really enjoyed the killing for all mankind. I feel like in the fifth season of For All Mankind, that's like playing

80 years old. When I look at that, I feel like that's some of the best that might be the best, some of the best work I've done for sure. I really love playing this like full-throated sociopath in the Detective Hull on Netflix. Is there a scene or a line or a phrase that you've read and played, whether it be on stage, TV, film, that you feel like has spoken to your life up until now? That's really resonated with you as a human being.

Of the same cloth that dreams are woven of, we are made and our short lives are embraced by asleep. What's that from? It's from The Tempest. Okay. Shakespeare. I have that as a tattoo. Really? That was easy to remember.

To me, it's just like it wraps around like some existential truth of our existence in this universe and what happens. when we die and that we carry on, we go back to, I don't know. Wow, that's beautiful. It's like, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it doesn't mean anything exactly, but I feel like the words kind of give some sort of meaning to how I look at life and death. I've been just so enthralled by your storytelling of everything right now, but the thing that I'm curious about is you just told me, you know,

off camera beforehand that you're going through your own transition and transformation right now. And I know you've talked about in the past and other places you talked to a little bit about here. You grew up with women and your family, but you also had a challenging relationship, I guess, psychologically with your dad. And you've talked about that, that the men, you've said the men and your family communicate through rage and you're actively been working on breaking that pattern. And it's not easy for you to admit that, let alone in public. So I guess I'm curious that this season, you know, you've been in LA for some, 16-ish 17 years. You've had a lot of success externally. What is this season of unpacking more of

your psychological and emotional life giving you? And what are you learning to take on to the new season of your career in life? I think I'm trying to find the balance of not letting go of my youthful spirit, but but still becoming a little bit more of an adult and being like a good leader in my relationship and I think I've found it easier to be a leader at work than maybe in my relationship and in my private life and I think I've shied away from difficult conversations in my family and not, you know, taking that space that I know many around me are like waiting for me to sort of take.

And I do it in a different way, you know, where I create things for my family and provide and particularly in my relationship of, for me, Like the key word that is, is like consistency. That's what I'm, like, aspiring. Consistency and, like, in my good habits and the habits that help me build patience. I'm a little too susceptible to outside, the outside affecting me and even changing me. So, which, you know, makes me a little bit of an unreliable.

entity because I can be so affected by outside stimuli or inputs. You know, I'm so much of like going with the flow and, hey, when in Rome. Let's try this out. Let's do this. Yeah. And I think, you know, I've had very much of like a traveler's mindset where I, you know, love coming to a new place and like figuring out how people live here and then trying to kind of become one of them, you know, and live the way they do. And it's a little bit of like an actor's mentality too, of like trying on different versions of myself. And so how does this feel?

How does this fit? This is fun. This is a good experience. And where I've been, you know, like in pursuit of collecting experiences. And not necessarily thinking so much about sort of being reliable and dependable. and in relationship to, you know, because your career, your career, you're like reliable, dependable, you show up. Yeah, for sure.

If you book a gig for four to six months, it's like, you're 100% reliable. Yeah, yeah. Why do you feel like you've been more reliable for 20 years in your career than in relationships? Part of his priority. You know, I've really prioritized, or earlier I didn't even think of it that way. It was like, you know, I gave everything to my career and then everything else was kind of, you know, fallen. You know, it would, it would, it will be what it will be, you know. Right.

But it's like, but nothing touches my work, you know. And that's, you know, to me, that's not a recipe for happiness. So you have to find a balance. And I also, I definitely have a much better balance now. You know, before I was much more destructive in my approach to work, I would, you know, if a character. was smoking meth, then I gotta practice this. I wanna know what that feels like. You know?

I need to be the character. Yeah. And I think a lot of it was also sort of stemming from insecurity, and insecurity of like, will I be able to like perform in the way that I want to and will I be able to like be vulnerable in the way that I want to, will I be able to, you know, show the darkness of that character? If what? if I didn't like go into those territories and get first-hand experience of all that stuff.

But now I, you know, it's like for me being vulnerable and that is not hard at all. And even like being vulnerable on camera is not hard. For me, it's, I've created those pathways neurologically. You can open up in a moment. I can just start breathing in a certain way. and then kind of do a little meditation around the circumstances that I'm in, and then those channels are sort of open now.

You know, it's a technique, you know, based on experience. Personal and career. Yes. You can drop into vulnerability in any moment. Yeah, I mean, I don't think about dropping into vulnerability, but I'm not afraid of it, you know? So, but then like just technically for my profession, it's like I know how to do that.

So I don't need to like go on a three-day bender to like feel fragile. You can take a five-minute meditation and get there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But in your personal life, do you feel like you're open and receptive and vulnerable? No, I'm a disaster. Yes, I mean, it's not hard for me to be vulnerable. But then I kind of let myself down. by not being consistent enough and not being dependable enough.

And it's a little like, you know, I kind of just need to man up a little bit in my life and be a stronger constant. I'm not disagreeing with you, but why do you think you need to? Like, why do you think you need to man up or be consistent or do these things in your personal life versus how you are in your professional life? Is it because you think you'll have more peace and joy and happiness?

Or do you feel like that's what you're supposed to do at this age? I mean, part of it is to be more compatible with my partner. Yeah. But when I do that, I'm also happier. It definitely makes me happier. And I feel like I have more self-respect. When you're consistent and reliable and leading rather than... For sure.

It's just kind of go with however, yeah. Yes. And yeah, definitely, definitely I'm much happier with myself. And a lot of these things, and the healthy habits that I need to create to do that, they are great for me. And they help you and work as well, I'm assuming. The more consistent in your personal life, you probably deliver better results in your professional life. Yeah.

It's like this Buddhist expression goes, shenpa. Have you heard of that? What's it mean? The shenpa is like the space that you create. like before you get triggered or emotionally affected, and it's like to create these habits, to create more space, more shampa, like that is so good for me.

I don't know if this is every man. I can definitely speak for me that I think I was always afraid of full commitment and going all in, in intimate relationships, because it was almost like I would have to let go of a world of all these other things that I could potentially do or these activities or adventures or the idea of freedom to go anywhere and do anything at any moment without having to rely on or communicate with anyone else.

Yeah. Or letting anyone down. It's just like I can be fully whatever I want to do and I don't have to call anyone. Yeah. And I think for a long time I lived in fear of letting go of that. Yeah. And I'm not saying it was easy. It was extremely challenging.

And it took me until my late 30s, you know? It's probably like to fully be able to say, okay, is this life I've been living going to give me what I want in the future, which is to be in a harmonious relationship, which is to have a family eventually in all these things that my future self really wants, I know that I can't keep living this way. But I think for like 15 years, I was pulled with this, but this is so fun and interesting and freeing, right? Yeah.

That you really have to let go of an older. identity and step into this leadership role for yourself. And what I'm hearing you say, correct me if I'm wrong, is like, you still love that idea to be able to do those things and you don't want to lose the boyish, childish in you, that energy while you step into full commitment, full ownership, full leadership in your personal life. Yeah. Because kind of that child, that child liking me, I think is what generates a lot of my life.

Yeah. The childlike energy, the wonder, the adventure, the creativity, the spontaneity. It's what created everything I'm building. Yeah. And it what attracts opportunities to me. So if I'm just like, I'm this responsible, like, you know, leader, it's, you're not attracting, like, the creative energy, the flow. Yeah.

And so it's the dance between ownership, responsibility, and leadership, while keeping the childlike wonder and, like, meshing the two is what I'm here. Yeah. You put that really well. I love the way you put that, because I think that's like, it's so important to be able to blend those worlds and not like just become like a boring dad. It's rigid, like, okay, now we're, yeah, no. That's like scary.

Yeah. And with more responsibilities, there is more weight and pressure and bills. Yeah. It's like you have to do things differently in order to take care of those responsibilities. You have to be a leader. to be a leader. And you don't want to lose that little childlike boy who's like, let's just go play and let's have fun and let's adventure and have no responsibility and just create. Yeah. And I think, you know, for me, that's like a little bit of a metaphor for art and even

for acting. It's like you have to create the structure that is really strong. And then within that structure, you have to be able to lose control a little bit. But to lose control and not like spin out, you have to have that structure. Boundaries. Yeah. Yeah, exactly those boundaries. And it's like, and I think in a relationship, it's like, yeah, I'm sure you can find, you know, you can structure your life where you have a partner that will let you do anything

and they say that they're, I'm fine with it. But you know that they're not. And it's like, if you're honest with yourself, then you're. most likely hurting the person you're with. And, you know, it's like, it's like, who do you want to be, you know? And I want to be, like, playful and have like a childlike spirit. But with a framework where my kids, my future kids will be really proud of me, you know. It's like, and where my wife feels that she can rely on me, my word is bond.

and if I say I'm going to do something, I will. Did you grow up in a household where your parents' word were bond and they created safety and structure? I mean, yes and no. You know, they're still together and they're, you know, close. It wasn't a very passionate. I didn't see that. I love my dad to bits.

It was not the most romantic guy, you know. I don't think he was good at, like, creating adventure. Either is a little too, like, holding on. RIDIDID. Yeah, rigid. But I'm hearing you say the vision for your life is you want to be free, but also creates strasher for your future kids. Yeah, the freedom is not hard to create.

You are free. You need to like... But it's like harnessing it. It's harnessing it and like growing up in certain areas, you know, like just... I've let too many things get in the way and I said I was going to do this or I like, You have my word, I was going to do this, but then this happened and that happened. And it's like, no, it, you know, that's where that's where I need to like really make a big shift. If you could, you're about to turn 47, I think, right?

Yeah. If you could go into the next three years into the end of your, you know, 40s. Yeah. And you're. Oh, God, I'm so immature. No, I'm just saying, you're an actor, you know, it's okay. But let's just say, you know, the next three years before you hit 50. Yeah.

I feel like I lived my 20s for 20 years. Yeah, exactly. It's okay. But the thing I think is really cool is you're starting to like open up about this. You know, I've known you for we're not like the closest of friends, but we've been in friendship for many years. Yeah. I've gotten closer and I feel like I've heard more of this story and you've heard me share

my stuff and all these things. And what I think is really cool is the awakening that you're having. and I think a lot of people look at actors and they just don't know what's really behind the scenes and they think it's very glamorous and life is perfect or if you're getting all these shows

like you're making all this money but there's also challenges that you've had to face and the things that have gotten you there may also be things that hurt you in other areas you know, because you're so talented at like saying yes and doing these things

maybe it's hurt you in your relationship as well which you've talked about and I think it's really cool that you're starting to share more about this. And I'm curious if we're three years in the future, if you could time travel and imagine, you know, the character you're going to be living in three years, that in real life, what is it that you want him to say to you right now that will support you and having everything you want at the top of your career and the top of your personal life? Yeah, like, what the fuck you so long? But not even like shaming you about the past. Like he

knows where you're in now like you have all the answers like you know you know all the answers you you you have all the answers you it's just about implementation so hopefully he'll say good job good good job like uh that that's that's exactly it that's it so he'd be saying so if he if you're 50 in the future talking to you now that's what he would say to you now about the next few years i hope he's going to say like uh good job that's that's what we were doing got you got to the right point, can't you? And what do you feel like it's going to take from you to hold yourself accountable to integrating these things that you've been learning? Because it's easy to slip back. I've done it a ton of time. You've done it. You know, it's like, okay, we're making a new commitment, but then that old boy just

wants to play. Yeah. I want to go out to play. This other big opportunity. I said, I committed to you here on this thing, but now this thing happened. I got to go do this. It's easy to slip back into old ways of being. Yeah, it's finding the right way to play, you know? For me, it's really like having more of a consistency in my habits regardless of where I'm at. And regardless of who's around me. And to not get, not be so like, do my thing, you know, like do yoga two to three times a week, meditate every day, you know, get up early. And like, take my dog out before sunrise. You know, it's like these things that I know that like also make me more compatible in my

relationship. And then, you know, when you're two actors in a relationship to and you have these like periods that you're away from each other, you have to think these kind of the sort of things that I do become extra difficult because, you know, it's really difficult to be my partner where, you know, I go off and do a movie and it's hard enough to be away from each other for like a month. try to keep it like not more than three weeks, but sometimes, you know, it's a month. But then I've gone off and become a different person for this month. And I've created all these new habits.

And all of a sudden, I'm like smoking cigarettes and I'm drinking wine every day. You know, it's like, so, you know, that is also not something that's creating safety and stability. And, you know, when, it's enough that I'm going off and becoming a different character with every character I'm playing. Because I don't think about it myself and I don't experience it that way, but apparently I change quite a bit based on what character I'm playing at the moment. Yeah.

Is it hard for you to kind of like cleanse after the scene and like get back into who the role is? I have like this little like ritual or ritual where I have sage and especially when I'm playing like a dark character or something. Yeah. I do this little sage ritual where I was kind of like try to leave the guy there.

But of course it's like, You're with those kind of thoughts for a whole day. So, you know, it does affect you in some way. But yeah, it's, you know, so it's enough with all that stuff. So I need to be much more consistent in, like, the way that I live my life and have my sort of routines and my consistency in the things that are good for me and then also, like, is more compatible with my wife. I think since the first probably time I met you, I think, or at least pretty soon after that,

So I guess we've known each other for almost eight, seven, eight years, maybe, something like that. Yeah. I've heard you say over and over again dozens of times that you really want to have a family. You really want to have kids. Like your dream is to have kids. Yeah. That's what I've heard you say multiple times. I'm just curious, when you have kids, what is the thing you want your kids to be proud of you the most?

That I'm like a good, honest person that's kind to other people that makes other people feel good that I'm like a positive influence in my family and in society. But I think that also those things that like someone that you can trust and it's consistent. All the things you're trying to do right now. Exactly. We get ready. That's good, man. Get ready. Lou's trying to be like you. That's good, man. There's so many things about like just the human psychology of an actor that I have no clue what you go through. I mean, I have some clue from like being with Martha and understanding a little bit, I haven't really experienced that of how to take on a character and obsess over a character and not let that imprint on you in some way.

I'm assuming every character you've played, you've had to have compassion or understanding or empathy or anger towards them. And then somehow not letting that affect you or imprint on you for the rest of your life, I don't know how you do that. And maybe you can't. Characters that you play for a long time, they kind of leave a little trace, you know, puts a little dent in you in some way. It's an exercise in empathy.

And because you really have to find a way to understand and have love for that person, even though... Even if you hate them. I don't think that people are born evil. And I think that, and even if, you know, we're all, to some degree shaped by society. And of course, there are, like, exceptions. But, you know, we have... But even like, even with psychopaths, you know, not all psychopaths are like always bad people, you know? It's a, maybe you don't find love for every character, but an understanding, you know?

You find an understanding of like where it comes from. And then sometimes the answer is like they're just not aware, you know, like this guy that I was playing on this Netflix show, Detective Hull, who's like, I sort of, you know, you don't, it doesn't have to follow like the psychology, ABCD, but, but I sort of. was playing around with the framework of him being sort of a malignant narcissist, which is on the sort of psychopathy spectrum, it's like the station right before a narcissistic sociopath. Okay, yeah. They have like sociopathic traits and, but they have ability to feel empathy, you know. Still, yeah. And even though sometimes they can connect with completely without with empathy. So it's a little bit. little in between. I thought that was like more interesting to play with. And this guy,

it was someone that was really like, you know, he was definitely damaged in his, in his upbringing and by his father. And also, he doesn't know what's going on inside of him. Yeah, he's just doing. He's just reacting. Yeah, it's like, there's just like, he's driven by his sexual confusion and sex is more about power than anything else. And he's driven by his lust for more power and games. And it's, you know, so there's all these like impulses that are coming to him that he's acting upon. And he might have like a strategy of how to play this power game to make this person feel weaker and take his spot and to keep climbing up. But it's not someone that is like aware of what's going on in.

and my actions here are because I'm hurt in this way. So it's fascinating to kind of create the sort of framework of a character, and then you're just like, but in here he's like just going, you know, based on impulses and things that are happening. And it's not like, it's not a rooted person, but he's broken, so that's why there's potential for so much chaos. I've always hear about this thing called the hero's journey for acting. Yeah. What does that mean, the hero's journey?

For me, it's more about like about five to seven grams of psilocybin. But there's like a hero's journey arc, right? When you take on a role, are you thinking about that hero's journey arc based on this? Well, so it's like it's a type of story. And it's a type of, you know, it's like Luke Skywalker is a classic like heroes journey. And it has all these like different steps. Do you think about that when you take on a role of like, okay, what's the arc of throughout the whole season or the movie? Or are you thinking about how do I deliver this best scene for this moment and worry about the rest of it later? Well, you know, like a hero's journey is interesting because, you know, and it's a cool framework for a story because that character goes through so much change, you know.

And so you're always trying to, I'm always trying to find a role that has an evolution and changes a lot over the course of the story. And that's interesting to play if you're the lead, you know. But then, and then, of course, you want to kind of cover your tracks a little bit so you, so the performance doesn't become formulaic. I see what you're saying. Gotcha. Yeah. You've got three different shows out right now.

You've got multiple projects in production that are coming out soon. If anyone just Googles your name, Joel Kinneman, they'll see where they can find all of your work, your TV, film, everything you've been working on. you know i originally i think i originally saw you in a small part you did with one of my a film that i really like gosh the girl the dragon tattoo you have have to have good eye noise to catch me a yeah you're a quick moment in there but then i remember seeing you in house of cards which i thought you were incredible in and i think it was one season you're in that or a half of season two seasons yeah fourth and fifth yeah credible in house of cards alter carven is where you know

you know, the synchronicity really lined up with, which I thought was a fascinating show. And a lot of people that meet Martha, who have seen Altered Carbon, they're like, that was one of my favorite shows. I wish you and Joel did the next season. Everyone's always like, ah, I wish you guys would have the next one, but you've done so many cool projects.

And, you know, I think what I acknowledge about you, Joel, is just you being so open in your journey. And being in the mess of it, being willing to like continue to transform. I just think it's really cool. Because I think there's a lot of successful actors or business leaders that I'm aware of or I've met who aren't willing to work on themselves because what got them there, they don't want to lose that. Yeah. They don't want to lose the thing. Well, now I'm successful.

And the thing, the way I was being got me here. Yeah. So I don't want to change who I am. Yeah. Even if it's destructive in my intimate relationships or my business partnerships, even if I'm a jerk like, this is what's got me here. So I'm going to hold on to it. And I think it's really. really cool that you are on this journey and you have been for many years since I've known you

of awareness. Like you're very open about yeah, I know I've been this way and I've been this way and it's been challenging and I got to figure it out. Yeah. And I see this internal struggle you've been dealing with and I feel like it's really cool and inspiring that you're sharing with others, your friends and also publicly because it gives other people perspective on on they can continue to grow to improve the quality of their relationships, their career, their business, their goals, and hopefully get back to harmony. Yeah. And everything I talk about on the School of Greatness is how do you live your own best life

and how do you have? And really what that means is how do you have inner peace with who you are on your path? Yeah. And you've had a lot of success and a lot of fun, a lot of adventure. But you haven't fully had that total peace and harmony inside of you from what I've heard. No. But I'm glad to hear that you're starting to create that because I believe you, the Joel Kinneman with more harmony, more peace, and more structure is going to create even bigger abundance when your career, opportunities, and however that looks for you. Whether that's

big hits or, you know, more indie stuff, you want to, whatever you want to do. It doesn't matter. Some babies would be nice. Babies, I think maybe that's your greatest, you know, adventure, right? And so I'm just, I acknowledge you, man. It's really cool that you're on this journey. And anything I can do to serve and support you, you know, let me know. Just trying to be like you, Lewis. You know, one day at a time, man, but you all got stuff we got to deal with. So this is called the three truths. It's a hypothetical scenario. Imagine you get to live as long as you want to and you get to accomplish everything and live the life you want to. But it's the last day on earth, many years away. You get to live as long as you

want. But for whatever reason in this hypothetical scenario, all of your work has to be taken with So every project you've worked on, this conversation, any movie, TV show, any recorded content that you've been on is gone, hypothetical. But you get to leave behind on the final day, three truths, three lessons from your life that you would want to leave behind. What would those three truths be for you? Face your fears head on. We are love.

Live in generosity. Joel, kid of it. My man. Appreciate you, brother. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening,

then make sure to subscribe to our greatness plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.