The School of Greatness - Find Self-Forgiveness & Write A New Narrative For Your Life EP 1284

Episode Date: June 24, 2022

Today’s guest is best-selling author Shaka Senghor. Senghor was released from prison in 2010 after spending 19 years for being convicted of murder. Today, Shaka’s priority is shifting societal narratives through storytelling and developing workshops with high entertainment value and deep social impact. Senghor is the Head of Sales and Success Culture at TripActions and Founder of Redeemed Sole. He has taught at the University of Michigan and shares his story of redemption around the world. His memoir, Writing My Wrongs: Life, Death and Redemption in an American Prison, debuted on The New York Times and The Washington Post Best Seller Lists. Shaka’s widely anticipated sophomore book, Letters to the Sons of Society was released in January 2022.In this episode, you will learn:How to create a new narrative for yourself. How to create peace from past trauma. How to find self-forgiveness.Why the best conversations are the ones you have with yourself.For more, go to: lewishowes.com/1284Bobby Hall a.k.a. Logic on How To Pursue Your Dreams In The Face Of Adversity: https://link.chtbl.com/1163-podWallstreet Trapper on the Journey From Prison To Financial Freedom: https://link.chtbl.com/1209-podEd Mylett on Developing Superhuman Levels of Self-Confidence: https://link.chtbl.com/1274-pod

In solitary confinement, for people that don't know, how much time do you get to spend with others? How much time do you get out of your cell? What is the day-to-day? 23-hour lockdown. Come on. Five days out of the week. Oh. But it was in that environment that I really began to examine. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro-athlete turned

lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. At 19, you're a drug dealer and you shot and killed a man, right? Yeah. And at 17, you got shot a few times? Yeah. And how would you say that your childhood developed for you to get to a place to be in that environment? That's a really profound question, you know, and it takes me back to my healing journey.

And one of the parts of that healing journey started with reading this quote from Socrates. The unexamined life isn't worth living. So I was sitting in a prison cell in solitary confinement, being told that I would never get out of prison. Really? Let alone out of solitary confinement. let alone out of solitary confinement. And the thing about it is I almost started to believe that because my neighbor across from me, this guy named Tony, a super fascinating guy, one of the most charismatic, charming guy.

He can emulate voices like you wouldn't even begin to believe. He had been in solitary for like 20 years. 20 years? 20 years. So in solitary confinement, for people that don't know, how much time do you get to spend with others? How much time do you get out of your cell? How much activity time?

What is that? What is the day to day? 23 hour lockdown. Come on. Five days out of the week. Oh. And 24 hour lockdown the other two days out of the week. So for five days out of the week, you can go out to basically what's essentially dog.

The yard. Yeah, so they put handcuffs on you, put a leash on the handcuffs, walk you out to this cage, and you're allowed to stay out there for like, you know, An hour. An hour or so. And oftentimes, me personally, I would choose not to go out for a variety of reasons. Sometime they were like feces wars, like guys just slinging feces.

And, you know, I didn't want to be in a line of fire of that. And then other times it was just like it was in Michigan, so it could be extremely cold and you have the bare minimum on. But it was in that environment that I really began to examine, like, how did I end up here? And what got you into solitary? Because originally you're not in solitary confinement. Yeah yeah so I got into a conflict with an officer and that actually ended up being two additional years in prison oh man what turned out to be four and a half years straight in solitary on that particular stint because how what was your original sentence for so my original sentence was for second degree murder.

For how long? How long was it supposed to be? 17 to 40 years. Jeez. And so I ended up serving a total of 19 years. Because you added two years with this. Yeah. I had two years added. And so that extended my time. But during this time in solitary, you know,

it was a serious assault on an officer who was to charge. We got into a fight and because I was incarcerated, I got charged with, you know, a crime, a new crime. And you know, sitting in that environment, I was reading, you know, that line, the unexamined life isn't worth living. And so what happened is I asked myself this question, how did you go from honor roll scholarship student with dreams of being a doctor to this being your life? And so I began to journal and I began to unpack all the things that had transpired in my childhood

that led me to that moment. And as I was journaling, I was like, how is a kid who has experienced this level of trauma, even alive, let alone, you know, capable of just being like, hey, you know, what happened to my life and why am I here? And so that journaling just peeled back the layers and it was raw and it was ugly and then it became Beautiful and it became powerful because what I was able to do was to go back and reassign Responsibility to the people who had caused me harm who had traumatized me, you know early in my childhood That trauma started within my household

With my mom which was very difficult to write growing up. And, you know, the kind of community that I grew up in, it was unheard of to say that this is abuse and that this is traumatizing me. So I early on, I began to accept that this was just the way it was. And so when I began to journal and unpack that and think about you know like what that meant I was able to say you know I wasn't responsible for those hits I weren't responsible for those mean words and as I got deeper into that conversation I began to understand how that household trauma led

me to running away when I was around 14 years old and when I ran away I was so naive you know I thought that one of my friends parents would see this smart you know handsome kid and just take me in and wrap me in the love that I believe all children deserve. You know, it's something I'm so adamant about in my work. I think children deserve, like, love and care and kindness and, you know, all the things, you know, wrapped in structure. You know, they need discipline in their life. Sure, sure.

And what ended up happening is for, like, two weeks, I just was, like, roaming the neighborhood. I was sleeping in friends' garages. I was sleeping in basements. I was hustling food at the store. I would, hey, can I take your bags to your car? And they would give me 50 cent and I would go eat potato chips and cookies. And I was unbathed and I began to get ridiculed

by the older guys like, hey, you're kind of dusty and like go take a shower and get some sneakers and all the things and like a lot of kids who grow up in those experiences i was vulnerable uh we don't talk about it a lot culturally because you know if you come from the streets you have to be like hard you gotta wear that mask but when you really get down to it like i was a kid. At 14. At 14, and most of us are kids, we get looped into this very adult world, and it's a seduction.

And I, over the years, I began to actually reframe the language for exactly what it was, right? So what was it? It was the seduction of a kid into a culture, an adult culture. And what that looked like was... Were you still going to school or were you more just... So I was kind of going to school whenever I can shower and bathe. So I would go up to the school.

And what happened is there was an older guy in the neighborhood. And he was like, hey, I see what's going on. Come ride with me. Let's go get something to eat. And he took me to Burger King. And then he was like, you know. Acting like he's going to take care of you a little bit. Yeah, he's like, yo, you need some sneakers. You need some clothes.

If you come work this spot. This is the beginning of crack cocaine, the crack cocaine era. Was it 19? This was like 86. 86. Yeah, so this is when crack is just penetrating the Midwest. And this is Detroit, right? This is Detroit, yeah.

So we don't even know. You know, this is a new drug in the community. We don't even know how devastating it's going to be. And as a kid, you can't even begin to imagine what that is, you know. And so, you know, he takes me in. He's like, you know, let's go get sneakers and let's go get food and all the things and then I'm in this crack house on the east side of Detroit I'm in here and I remember the first time where I was like this is scary is he brings me this sawed-off shotgun he's like if

anybody tries to break in just shoot through the door you're 14 15 14 years old I was terrified I'm gonna be shot shot a low caliber gun, let alone a shotgun. That's terrifying. It's terrifying, but I can't say that I'm terrified because that's not the culture. You got to act tough. Yeah, and so it's like he breaks down the amount that I'm going to sell and what I owe and then what I'll make at the end of the week. amount that I'm going to sell and what I owe and then what I'll make at the end of the week.

And so the end of the week comes around and it's $350, $400, mostly in singles and five dollar bills. It's this big wide cast. And the first thing I do is go to the grocery store and I just buy all the cereal that I had dreamed of. It's like everything, Captain Crunch, Lucky Charms, Fruity Pebbles. And then I buy like chocolate milk and strawberry milk. You know, the reality is I'm a kid. You know, I'm gorging this cereal now. But that was my entry into that culture. Wow. And within the first six months is when it got real.

You know, my childhood friend was murdered. I was robbed at gunpoint. And then I became addicted to crack cocaine at 14 years old. You know, I was introduced to that again by another adult who's like, hey, this is cool. This is what we do. It's fine. We make a lot of money. what we do is fine we make a lot of money you know and so i had to navigate addiction

in this adult culture as a 14 year old kid um and then after that i ended up messing up the money because of the addiction and they beat me near to the death oh man you know and i remember to death oh man you know and i remember being 14 years old laying on the bathroom floor in a pool of my blood and asking this question what kind of world do we live in where this happens to kids and so that was my intro into that culture and then over the years you know i began to become hardened i began to put up the mask. And then when I was 17 years old, I got shot. And at that point I was the third of my mother's sons to be shot. Come on.

My oldest brother had been shot in the neck. Jeez. My second oldest brother had been shot. At that point, when I got shot, he got shot in the arm. And then he got shot again. He's currently paralyzed. He's been paralyzed since, I want to say 1998. So high levels of gun trauma, high levels of, you know,

gun violence within the culture. You know, I can't even tell you how many of my friends have actually been shot or murdered. And so at 17, sitting in the hospital bed, I'm processing this very traumatic event and there's nobody there to help me. There's nobody there to say, hey. No support, no family support, friends.

Yeah, I think my dad and my mom came, but I think they didn't even know what to do at that point. So I'm a third-year child just laying in the hospital bed with bullet wounds. And I can't even tell you how many kids in the neighborhood who they saw grow up. This was, I mean, and this is the height of that era, right? So 86 to 90, this is like a very volatile time in Detroit. And this is when crack cocaine is that it's

high the war on drugs is happening and you know it wasn't until I began to journal that I realized there should have been an intervention and had I been from a different community with different resources and somebody would have said hey you're gonna need help you're gonna need psychologists you're gonna need a therapist you're gonna need somebody to talk to and help you unpack this traumatic event absolutely and that just didn't happen and so what happened was I went back to my neighborhood with this narrative in my mind that if I get into a conflict

I'm shooting first and I begin to carry a gun every day I feel safe and what you can't say you know when you grow up the way that I grew up you can't say that you know that actually hurt when I got shot no yes yes like I whatever you know I'll get back you know I'll get the guy the next time. Be fine in a couple weeks. Yeah. And so that's the mindset at 17 years old that I'm just like, yo, I'm hard. I'm standing on this corner. What I can say to my friends is every time a car pulls up that I have anxiety because there's no language for anxiety.

No. There was no language for paranoia. There was no language for fear because, you know, you can't be a tough kid growing up in the hood and be afraid. You know, you just got to navigate it. You just got to put the mask on. And so I wore that mask. But deeper than that was the narrative that I created, that if I found myself in a conflict, I would shoot first. conflict I was shoot first and 16 months later and nearly two in the morning I got into this conflict over a drug deal that I refused to make in that conflict escalated and there was this moment you know that I always think back to where I turned to walk away you did and I turned to walk away and what I thought was

happening was that the person I was arguing with was attempting to get out of the car. And I just turned and fire forced off the tragically ended his life. And, you know, it's a moment that I played over for years of like, why didn't I just take that second step? You know. And keep walking. And keep walking, yeah. And it wasn't until I was journaling that I realized that the grip of the trauma of being shot would not allow me

to make a different decision. Yeah, because you weren't healed. You can't make a conscious decision from a hurt place. Yeah. You have to make that from a healed place. Yeah. Because you weren't healed. You can't make a conscious decision from a hurt place. Yeah. You have to make that from a healed place. Absolutely.

Or a healing journey. Yeah. You know, you've got to be on that journey. Yeah. Interesting. What happened after that incident?

So I was subsequently arrested. I was charged with open murder and I was eventually sentenced to 17 and 40 years for second degree murder and you know going through the legal process I was like

psychologically I was already traumatized like I was just like so numb and I remember at my sentence you know know, my lawyer telling me, you know, here's what you say to the family. And it was the most superficial apology ever. On what he wanted you to say. Yeah. And, you know, I was still a kid. And so I trusted his judgment and I just kind of went with this kind of rope. Apology, and that was devastating.

You know, as I began to navigate my prison sentence. For you it was devastating or for them? It was for, I'm sure it was devastating for them, but it was devastating for me in the sense that I knew that I didn't communicate what I actually felt what did you actually feel that i had made a horrible decision that it caused them incredible pain and like i was deeply sorry and just like it was something that i wish i could have took back and as opposed to like the scripted kind of yeah clinical apology yeah yeah you know and so for years i you know in prison i just kind of beat up on myself and i just internalized even more

of that pain you know and you know my first five years in prison was just like dark and anger filled and just i got into tons of trouble. Lots of fights. Lots of fights and, you know, disobeying the rules and it's very recalcitrant. Like I'm like, I'm not listening to no rules. And it was in that environment where, in that dark space, where one of what I call my three miracles transpired. And that first miracle was meeting some of the most incredible mentors in the world.

In prison. In prison, yeah. And these weren't like people who were coming to visit us to help salvage our souls or people who were just like you know you know we want to come and help you fix your life these were guys serving life sentences guys who if you you know really think about what a life sentence is they had nothing to gain you know they were by helping you yeah by helping me but these guys were brilliant you, these guys challenged me to read, to think.

You know, they challenged my thinking after I read. We debated. You know, they tried to give me guidance. And even though I didn't listen to them in a moment, you know, that wisdom later on became one of the most valuable gifts I've ever received. Yeah, so that's what it was like, the first part. The first five years, dark, you're getting into trouble. Some mentors are trying to help you. You're doing a little bit of the work,

but you're still from a hurt place. You're still reactive. You still haven't healed the trauma or done the journaling and the healing work yet. And so what, and then five years in, you got into the fight with the guard, which sent you into seven years solitary? No, that came about three years later.

The second miracle actually showed up in about that fifth year. Okay. And it came in the form of a letter from this woman named Nancy. And when I first got the letter, I'm just like, okay, who is this random person writing me cuz you know what she was yeah I thought it was you know just a pen pal because that's what happens in prisons like people hear about your case and you just start getting these

letters from random strangers we're like hey you know I just want to be friends etc but it turns out Nancy was the woman who had raised David, whose life I was responsible for taking. Oh, man. And so Nancy writes me this letter. She wasn't the mother? She wasn't the mother. She was the godmother. Oh, man. She writes me this letter. So this is five, seven years in? About five or so years in. And I remember opening the letter and her beginning to tell me who David was. You know, the father, the husband, the man, the friend.

And I can tell you, I wanted to ball that letter up. I was like, you know, emotionally it was just like a tidal wave of like guilt and responsibility and all the things that I hadn't unpacked yet. And something was like, you have to read the letter all the way through. You have to finish this thing. And I continue to read the letter.

And what Nessie said to me was like, despite the harm and devastation you've caused my family, I love you. Holy cow. And I forgive you because that's what God would want me to do. Oh, my goodness. How did that make you feel reading that? I was like, I went through kind of like a process of different feelings. of different feelings. First, I just felt horrible because I'm like, this woman in a moment of her own hurt and anguish is giving me something that I didn't even know if I was capable of receiving, which was love and forgiveness. And I wasn't emotionally mature enough at that time

to even understand like the power of like you know love that's like spiritual love you know this deep deep spiritual love this principle perspective of like somebody's beliefs really aligning with what they actually do um i hadn't forgiven myself so forgiveness was like whoa like what is this you know what what am i supposed to do with this you know um but i wrote her back you know and i wrote her back and her and I embarked on this correspondence journey and you know Nancy was essential to my personal healing in this way what she said to me was that I want to know what happened to that 19-year-old kid that pulled the trigger that night. What caused you to get to that space?

What caused me to get to that space. Wow. And so her and I began this journey of just unpacking a lot of the things. But even with that, it wasn't the kind of moment of just like where everything comes together, right? You know, in storytelling, people often want just that one moment of like, this is your come to Jesus moment. Healing is a journey, man. It changes. Healing is a journey.

It may not be like, oh, I'm healed in this moment. There might be little moments that bring you closer to awareness. Absolutely. And then eventually over time, it starts to mend and heal. And I remember a moment that I had not to go off track. I remember a moment I had where nine years ago, I mentioned I was, you know, when I was 30, I opened up about sexual abuse for the first time and I held onto it for 25 years. opened up about sexual abuse for the first time. And I held onto it for 25 years. So I didn't even start to heal until 25 years later. And if I look back and I'm like, hmm, there's a reason why I reacted in this way, in this situation, in this situation. Not saying it's okay or that I'm off

the hook, but without having the tools to heal, even the littlest of traumas, we could turn situations into horrible situations. Absolutely. We can choose bad things. Absolutely. And I remember I started my healing journey at 30, but I still had other things in my life that I hadn't started to heal. Yeah.

Other traumas, right? From parents to previous relationships to whatever, shame and guilt that I was holding on to. And it wasn't until about a year and a half ago in therapy, diving in very deep where like I felt the pain in my chest that I had for so long kind of disintegrate. It was actually a moment, but I was like, this is almost 10 years of a healing journey.

Then there was a moment that I felt like it connected like my mind to my heart and my body where my nervous system finally fully relaxed from that trauma. Now, I'm sure I'm still going to have things that come up. And you go back and you have to learn and heal. And you go back a couple steps and you learn and heal. It's a journey. But there wasn't like this aha moment, the moment I talked about it the first time.

It took me nine years. And then I'm still going to need to learn how to heal, you know. Yeah, yeah. So that happened for you with the letter. Absolutely. The correspondence was like, it was a moment of awareness, but it wasn't like, oh, I'm this loving, healed, no shame human being anymore. Absolutely.

And you speak to something that really, you know, speaks to me, right, is that the healing journey, when you explain it, what we haven't created space for is the explanation without interpreting it as an excuse. Like I don't make any excuses for the horrible decision of that night. But I think it's important for people to really understand how we get to those moments. Like I don't think that violence is born in a vacuum. I don't think that these acts that we see play out all the time in the world are things that just are in a moment or are born in us as human beings. There's all these things that happen, right? And a healthy, conscious human who's got, you know, on a healing journey or is just processing their pain, you know, processing trauma when it happens and learns how to do that, which they don't teach us these things growing up in school.

Parents don't teach us. You know, I grew up in Ohio. It was never, you know, share with me how you feel. You know, it was just toughen up. And in the sports field specifically, you fall down, you get hurt, it's just put the dirt on it and go back, right? You're made fun of if you showed emotion, right, in the sports field, right? And so I just wanted to fit in.

You just wanted to fit in. And you couldn't, you couldn't show a tender emotional side. And I think it's, you know, it's one of the reasons why I wanted to create this show 10 years ago during my healing journey was like, what are these tools that can really help transform human beings inside so we can have a healthier outside.

We see all these, you know, all the pain in the world, right, school shooting that just happened the other day, 19 kids, right? And this is what, I don't know, 20 or 30 shootings this year so far? Mass, yeah. Whenever there's these mass shootings or these wars, it seems like a lot of times it's caused by men who are hurt absolutely who are in pain who haven't learned how to heal trauma

and there's no justification there's no um you know lack of responsibility by any of these acts but i think you can see where that pain is coming from and how like, man, this, this person had to go through a lot of years of trauma that was unresolved to get to this breaking point. And I think, and I'm so glad that you're doing the work you're doing because for me, I know that if I didn't have some environment that was healthy and some friends that were good and some, you know, parental figures that were good, I could have gone down the same path. You know, my brother went to jail, I told you about this. And it's like, I could have seen myself going down that with one decision, one action that just like my pain gripped ahold of me and I made a dumb decision and now I'm in jail for five, 10, 20 years.

So it could be so quick how one action can hurt a lot of people and yourself forever. And I think the most important thing is teaching men how to heal their emotional wounds, their traumatic wounds today because a lot of the pain in domestic

violence and community violence and schools and just the world the wars that people are having is from men who are hurt and haven't healed and so i'm so glad that you're doing this work and you're talking about this because when you're a young boy growing up as a young teen i'll speak for myself one of the main drivers is to try to get a girl to like you yep it's like in our dna or something right it's like how can i get a girl to like me to hold my hand to kiss me to whatever it is when you're like 10 12 14 you just want to be accepted by a girl that you like absolutely so we're driven to do things to get the attention from a girl essentially whether that's right. So we're driven to do things to get the attention from a girl, essentially.

Whether that's right or wrong, it's just kind of like what drives us. It's the driver, yeah. And this may sound not politically correct, but the challenge is I don't think women understand

how to allow men to be emotionally vulnerable, especially when they're growing up. It's not accepted. When you're made fun of, when you're picked on by other boys, when you're being sensitive, or maybe a girl who's saying, hey, what are you crying for? That's not sexy to me.

That's not a turn on. Then boys start to toughen up and say, okay, I can't show my emotions because my buddies are going to make fun of me. I'm not going to get the girl. And she's not going to think I'm a real man. And so we kind of put these masks on. Absolutely. Right? Tell me if I'm wrong here. No, no, I think you're right. And I think what it is, is that the culture, even for,

you know, young girls who eventually grow into be women who want men to be mostly vulnerable, you know, young girls who eventually grow into be women who want men to be mostly vulnerable, they're as much of victims of it as we are because they are told that, you know, the toughness, the mass, the indifference, you know, the bad boy, you know, imagery is what's a, you know, it's a turn on, right? And then as they go through their maturation process, they realize that, you know, there's something else that's needed and that vulnerability and then I think from a cultural standpoint as men what what we fail to do is to say hey you know I actually love love yes you know I actually appreciate intimacy you know that's it that you know as beautiful and as amazing as you are what

really is beautiful is that i can trust the conversation we're having is authentic and i can be my true self and i can say you know today this actually hurts um you know one of the things i wrote about in a new book i said you know as a boy when i couldn't cry tears, I cried bullets. Oh, like that's our community right now. Right. These mass shootings are unexpressed sadness. They're unexpressed frustration. They're unexpressed insecurities. And while it doesn't excuse the behavior, if we grow to understand it, then we can actually better prevent it, first of all, because everybody can do, you know, a Monday morning triage and, you know, we can all play Monday morning quarterback. But prevention is what we have currently available to us. And that prevention starts with understanding.

If you don't understand, if you don't create space for men to actually say, here's how I really feel. You know, let's take down the idea that you think about how I feel. But here's how I really feel. You know, let's take down the idea that you think about how I feel, but here's how I really feel. And we have to do it with each other as men. Absolutely. And what I found is that, like, in my men's circle, I get so excited to talk about my friends. Like I say to them, you know, I love you, brother.

Like, I care about you. And how does your soul feel today? You know, did you do anything that was joyful? Are you fulfilled in your life and in your purpose? And we don't have to talk about numbers and metrics and all these other things that have been defined as the way that we measure our manhood, but I can do it because I'm willing to share those things. And I didn't get there overnight like this was a journey unlike anything imaginable and I would say that it the the tipping point from the emotional growth started with the third miracle

they might see that there was these three mirrors the Nancy was the second left the second one yeah and so that third miracle was getting a letter from my son while I was in solitary. So this is after the altercation with the officer. I'm about seven or eight years into my sentence. From your son? Yeah. When did you have your first son? So my first son was born six months after I was arrested. So his mom was three months pregnant. Wow. so you know probably about two years into that time in solitary which began about about my eighth year in prison so I probably was coming up on 10 years when I get this letter Wow and my my dad always would sit my son down and

make sure he wrote me letters. And normally they were just, you know, these little kid letters. Hey, Dad, you know, Transformers is my jam right now. You know, or, you know, here's a drawing or whatever. And I love you, Dad. And, you know. He would send you those. Yeah.

As a kid, a young two, five, seven-year-old. Yeah. And I actually still have those letters. That's cool. Those letters. And so he would send me these you know throughout my my journey and then i get this one letter when he's about 10 years old i'm in solitary at the time i think i'm on about year two and i opened the letter expecting it to just be you know hey dad here's what's happening in my world when i opened him my son

writes to me dad my mom told me why you're in prison for murder and he said dad don't kill again jesus watches what you do that letter destroyed the facade of toughness. Like the mask that I had worn up to that point in my life, I mean, it just disintegrated. And I was like, I owe him a dad. And if I don't know if I'm getting out of prison or not, but what I do know is that I have to live my life in a way that my son understands that no matter how far down you fall in life, if you are willing to do the work, you can get up and you can overcome. And so I said to myself in that moment, I don't know how, I don't even know if I'm ever going to get out of this place, but I need to prove to myself that I am committed to

transforming my life. And I'm in the Spartan cell at the time. Like there is nothing there that says, hey, here's how you can prove it. So I started with journaling because I wanted to get to the truth of like, you know, how did I end up here? Like there was a part of me that was like, I know I'm not a bad person. I know that I'm a good soul, but I've done horrible things that have hurt people And so that was a conflict that was just like this is a war right now, right? And so I go into battle mode. I'm like journaling and I'm writing and I mean this raw and it's scary and it's just like

Sheesh, this is the things that I've done. These are the things that have been done to me. And while I was doing it, I realized that I hadn't completed anything other than the GED. And I was like, okay, if you're committed to transforming your life, you have to finish something. And you have to do it for you. And you can't do it for the warden. You can't do it for the you and you can't do it for the warden you can't do it for the guards you can't do it for your parents i told them many times oh i'm turning my life around so last time i've been in trouble it was all the fluff it was the mass it was the

lies that we tell ourselves in the moment when we're hurting and we're just like okay we don't want the we want that immediate hurt to stop. But it wasn't about turning life around. And so I said, here's what you do. You have to write a book in 30 days. And if you write this book in 30 days, then that will be your proof that you're ready for change. That's cool. And so I didn't have a laptop, though.

I didn't have a typewriter. Handwriting. It was old school. I didn't even have a real good pen. So imagine if you pulled the inside of that pen out. You had that little thing. That little thing. Oh, my gosh, that's hard.

Yeah. And so I was like, okay. They want to give you a pen? No, not in solitary. They're scared you're going to shank the guard or something. Oh, my gosh. And so immediately I was like, it's no way possible No, not in solitary. They're scared you're going to shank the guard or something. Oh my gosh. And so immediately I was like, it's no way possible I'm going to write a book in 30 days with this thing.

And the first thing that popped in my mind was, here's excuse number one. Here's your victimhood. Here's your blaming everything other than being accountable. And I was like, okay, no, this is not going we're not we're not going back down this path right and so I took that pen and I rolled it up and some paper yeah I'm like yo I mean I had tons of experience rolling things up so it's like let me let me be intentional right like this is innovation this is you know I learned that later on in my life. Oh, that's what that is, like innovation. But rolling it up in that paper made it firm enough for me to write. And I wrote for 30 days straight until I finished that book.

And when I finished that book, I felt this incredible weight lifted from my shoulder. And I felt empathy for myself. And I felt this incredible weight lifted from my shoulder. And I felt empathy for myself. And I felt compassion. And I was like, you are a smart kid. You are capable of doing good. You are worthy of doing good. And I was like, wow. And then I was like, okay, that's cool.

I wrote a book but I was like greatness is the ability to do something good over and over mm-hmm it sounds like write another book in 30 days Wow and I wrote that second book and then I started a third book and I fell into the deepest bout of depression that I had ever experienced while incarcerated writing the book writing that book while about halfway through I realized I had all this talent and I was trapped in an environment where I couldn't give birth to it and all the disappointment of my life flooded back to me. This realization that I was this brilliant kid.

I was a talented writer. I was an artist at heart. I was smart. But here it was, I was in the worst place imaginable. In solitary confinement. With the chaos of that environment playing out around me and it was devastating to come face to face with that and I just remember not even want to get off my bunk like everything felt heavy and weighted like just to go to that door and open that food slot and take in slop one more time like it felt

like a million mile journey because it was like that heavy that devastation of coming face to face with my authentic self in an environment that was created by this mass version of who I was Wow And I was just like damn I failed this kid. I let this person down and so I fall into this deep deep depression and Then one day I was just like, you know You can sit back and you can feel sorry for yourself. You can blame your parents. You can blame your trauma.

You can blame the guards. You can blame everything that led to this moment. But right now you have a choice whether to wallow in self-pity, in defeat, in brokenness, or you can find your inner light and you can find your way out of here. And so at this time, I was reading all these brilliant books, you know, As a Man, Think of the Secret, and it was talking about the power of manifestation. And initially, I was like, this is some whack, whack science right here. So garbage, right?

How do you think it to exist in some things, right? But here's where, what I learned about that. I went back and I read my journal. And I began, as I'm reading this journal, I'm charting how I was thinking. And I was like, my thinking produced the exact outcomes that it should have like by reading this journal it's very clear that I was gonna end up in prison mm-hmm like it was very clear that at some point I was gonna pull the trigger that was going to cause someone's death it's

very clear that I was gonna get into these altercations because I was thinking that that was the only thing I was worthy of. From the time I was seven or eight years old, I heard you're only going to end up dead or in jail. You know, I had observed my friends go to prison. I observed my friends get shot. I had accepted that narrative. So it was my dominant thoughts were dead or jail. Like that was, those were my dominant thoughts. like i wasn't shocked when i got shot i was traumatized but i wasn't it wasn't like oh my god like this wasn't supposed to happen it was like oh this is a narrative right and so my dilemma was if this is absolutely true that i had magnetized my thoughts in a negative that if the laws of the universe are true that I can magnetize them in a positive

And so I began to focus this when you're in solitary this solitary. Yeah. Yeah, and so I started waking up with intentional thoughts of What I wanted my life to be That one day my life to be. That one day my life would be full of joy. One day it would be purposeful. One day I'll get out of solitary.

One day I'll get out of prison. And while I was on that train of thought, I was like, okay, let's test this theory. If thoughts are things, if what you think manifests, if how you believe dictates your outcome, let's test it. That's the empirical thing to do, right? It's the most scientific thing to do, right? And so I wrote the war in this letter. I had been getting deep into philosophy. So I write the war in this very philosophical letter.

philosophy. So I write to Warden this very philosophical letter. And what I proposed to him was to understand what the truth is. And I said to him, I said, you know, Warden, when I enter prison, I pledged that I was never going to follow the rules that I didn't want to follow. And it got me into solitary. And it got me into solitary. And it got me into solitary and it got me into, I've accumulated over 36 misconducts. And while you may not like that, what I would hope that you can acknowledge is that I'm a man of my word.

And that was the truth, right? I said I was going to get into all manner of trouble and I did it. And I was like, if you believe that the truth is the only thing that matters in conversation, everything that I'm about to tell you is what my truth is today. If you give me this opportunity to get out of solitary, I will focus on developing my skill sets as a writer, and I will focus on creating a pathway to build a career for myself using my talent as a writer. And the warden actually wrote me back.

And he said to me, this is the most compelling argument for release I've received. And while it feels counterintuitive, I'm going to advocate for you to get out. Wow. How many more years did you have in solitary? I ended up being like two and a half more years because the sentence was indefinite. It was forever.

It's whenever they feel that you're ready. So you had two and a half more years after that letter. Yeah, after that letter. But he advocated immediately and then it went to his higher ups

and they shut it down. It took more time. So it took these three steps. And then I also wrote down what I wanted to happen in my life with my writing I was like okay if I'm gonna be serious about writer here's the here's the goals and I wrote down the most lofty goals you can think of as a writer I wanted Oprah to read one of my books would be a New York Times

New York Times bestseller check check check check. You want to be a New York Times bestseller? And I want to be a New York Times bestseller. Check, check. Check, check. And I want to build a career for myself. There you go. Using writing. And I want to write across multiple platforms. I want to write music. I want to write for the stage.

I want to write for television. And so I was just super intentional and very clear. And when I got out of solitary, man, I took all the books that I had hand wrote and I typed them all up on a little word processor and it was the most tedious thing I've done today it was like oh my god it was brutal months just like yeah yeah but that that was the culmination of those three miracles coming together kind of letting that mask down and charting a new path for myself what did the

warden say after you hit new york time bestseller and had oprah interview you and talk about you and all these things you know what i he ended up retiring so i haven't been able to track him down oh man that'd be cool but yeah yeah but there's so many people from that part of the world that experience that have reached out that have followed my work. A guy I used to work for, he's one of my best friends now. I worked for him in the days when I was in a dark space. I was creating all type of chaos on the yard. And his name is Tom Scheidt.

He was an inmate with you? No, no. He was my supervisor. He was a civilian coming into the prison. And teaching? He was running a recreation center gotcha so he was running a recreation center at michigan reformatory which was the gladiator school this was like the most chaotic part of my incarceration is 1500 young guys with long sentences every anything from 15 years to life um and i worked for Tom and even the prison and the prison for this program so I work for the recreation center and back then

time was just like you know you can do anything you want to do in life like positive or negative you know he was like but I believe that your life is meant for a greater purpose and that one one day you're going to get out of prison and young people will look up to you. But you got to make sure you don't end up with life in prison because I can see you going down that path as well. And so I looked Tom up when I got out of prison. I wrote him. I hadn't seen him since like 96. And first, when he answered the phone, he was he's like soccer like i'm like he like how

like how did you get out like you know it's like like i escaped or something i'm like i'm like no time i've legitimately got paroled um but he took me to my first football game my first college football game him and his wife um you know he was one of the first people to read some of my writing before I even thought of myself as a writer. And so, you know, over the years since I've been out, Tom has come to stay at my place. I've stayed at his place in Lansing, Michigan. And, you know, we're really, really good friends now. But he saw something in me the way that my mentors did back then that I didn't see in myself. So you had these thoughts that got you into jail, essentially, right? That had you doing the actions and the behaviors that got you into jail,

and then you continued those thoughts for the first nine or ten years until you kind of learned that thoughts can become things. Absolutely. And you can manifest what you want in your life, and then you started shifting and creating goals and then staying true to your goals by accountability, daily, consistent actions to help you accomplish those goals.

And then backing it with the positive thoughts or the thoughts of gratitude or joy or possibility that one day something will be better as opposed to falling back into shame or upset or guilt. How does someone, just in their life, whether they're incarcerated or not, they might be incarcerated in their own minds, shift their negative thoughts to set themselves up

to manifest more abundance? It's an incremental process, and it's truly a journey. And, you know, what I always tell people is that when you look at the end results of anybody who's accomplished anything great or anything of respect or what we consider success, it always looks easy after it's done. Yeah. But it's a process. It's a process, you know, it's a journey. And it's a, for me, what would work was bringing myself to the moment and checking the narrative. What story am I telling myself? You know, am I telling myself the truth?

Am I recirculating the old outdated story that no longer exists? And like that mindfulness, that ability to bring myself like true to the moment that was one of the most powerful things I learned you know I learned it through meditation and and really processing thoughts and energy and okay what am I what am I bringing in like I always talk to young people about the importance of checking what you're consuming you know our consumption cycles you know mentally often go unchecked. In terms of the thoughts and what you're watching, what you're reading.

Thoughts, information, reading, listening to. What your friends are saying, gossip or whatever. All the things like those, we take in so much information. And then it's that internal conversation, right? That internal conversation is a beast you know the best conversation I ever have are with myself and they're they're complex you know they're not always easy you know and so what I what I would say is that that journey from negative attraction you know manifestation like is it's a process of like okay can i check it in a moment can i really just take a beat and say okay is this real is this happening or is this me drawing from old outdated information

to create a story that's not even true um and so i'm constantly doing i'm constantly just checking in their narrative right when things are happening in the world that can be so chaotic and feel like And so I'm constantly doing that. I'm constantly just checking the narrative, right? When things are happening in a world that can be so chaotic and feel like they're so in our face, I like, I center myself and I just come back to like mindfulness, right? We talked about, you know, the horrific, you know, mass shooting that just happened yesterday.

I learned about that about a half hour before I was going to pick my son up from school. Oh, gosh. And I just had to like recenter myself, be present. And I remember getting to the school and I felt just that anxiousness, you know. And then I heard the laughter of those kids. And I was just like, oh, this is what's really happening is these kids are in joy over here. And that shooting was horrendous and horrific and as a dad like my heart just went out to those parents but i knew that there was a way

that i can go down this negative kind of taking my son out of school he that he's not going you know like this whole chain of events and bringing myself to the clarity of that moment. Yeah. And knowing that collectively we can help those families heal, but we also can be present in the kids that are still here. Sure, sure. That we love on and care about, and we can double down on that care. And just that doubling down on the care and the love was like, okay, let's be present in that while we help these families heal.

So it's a process. You know, writing it down really helps. You know, I still write down my thoughts. You know, I'm still in my notes on my phone, just kind of like, hey, I had a thought about this thing and journaling and processing and attracting good energy and good intentions and that hyper awarenessawareness of like, what am I consuming and what does it serve? Because everything we consume serves a part of us.

Even when it's like, when I was in that negative loop, like that served, it served a part of me. It energized me. Anger energized me, right? It made me feel, because it was what I was taught I can only feel. It gives you some significance too. Yeah. I'm curious, was there a moment in time in prison where you were able to fully

let go of shame guilt the trauma that you were maybe holding on to and actually start to love yourself authentically and have peace was there a moment that happened in prison or did this not happen to laughter? No, absolutely. So around that time that I was journaling and I really began to unpack that narrative, I began to grow my locks. And it was my hair. Yeah, my hair. Yeah. And it was my hair. Yeah, my hair. Yeah, and it was my third attempt

So the first time that I attempted they've got it started and When I looked in the mirror all I heard was all the negative things I ever heard about my natural hair and You know, I went to cut it off immediately. I Started a second time and it got a little bit longer. And then I heard that negative narrative. And so I knew I was on a healing journey when I was able to see the beginnings of it and see beauty and see joy and see cultural connectivity. And I began to apologize to myself. I began to apologize to myself for all the mean things that I had said internally, all the times I had doubted my capabilities, all the times that I had bought into the shame.

You know, I grew up, I have gap teeth and, you know, I would get teased as a kid and, you know, there was shame attached to that. And I learned to look into that little window between my teeth and say, oh wow, that's fascinating. That's beautiful. And so it's just a process of like watching all of the narratives fall away and create new narratives and create new language of self-love um you know and it's and that's still a thing that's like a journey right like it's just like you know you're there's not these one-offs like i know people want it to be like a magical thing but it's like no it's a journey you know people want it to be like a magical thing but it's like no it's a journey you know i have to wake up and just be like hey

you know you're okay you're you're you're you're you're doing fine there's things that you still have to navigate and you know you have to overcome and and face and confront but it's actually okay you know because if you can label it in the right way and you can just say, oh, I'm just triggered right now. Sure, sure. Or, you know, this is kind of a moment where I'm kind of having a self-defeating moment. Get it together, you know, self-talk, you know. On a scale of one to ten, the first ten years you were in jail, on a scale of self-love, 10 being like you loved yourself the most in an authentic, conscious way,

had peace in your heart, all these things. One being you hated yourself, shamed yourself, all these things. Where were you in those first 10 years? Kind of like minus. It was like probably minus five. It was like now. And where were you after you got, when you got out or the last?

You know, you know the day I walked out of prison I would say I Was About a strong eight So this strong self love so close. Yeah Yeah, I was at a strong eight was it cuz you were out, or was it because you had gotten there maybe in the previous year? No, yeah, it was probably like that last few years where it just started hitting on all cylinders. You know, and it was just kind of this space in my life where I was like, you know, I'm in prison.

One day I won't be. You know, I went up for parole like two times three times before I got released so it was kind of like them the moments would knock me back down I'm hoping maybe this is the time yeah yeah yeah so that was that was the challenge you know that was the thing that I had to combat was the negative talk attached to that okay they're never gonna let me out and then I just had to start countering it you know so every day i would walk the yard with one of my best friends named calvin evans and calvin is an incredible light in my life you know he served 24 years for a crime he didn't commit

and one of the most joyful people i know gosh and um so i would walk the yard with calvin we would just walk. And I would say, one day, man, I'm going to get out of here. And this is what I'm going to do. And this is how I'm going to do it. I'm going to hustle these books out of the trunk. And one day, one of these books is going to reach Oprah. I don't know how, but I'm just going to hustle, hustle, hustle. I'm going to mentor the kids when I get home.

And so this talk was like, it was verbalizing my intentions, but it was also countering that narrative that was attached to, like, getting denied parole. You're not going to be allowed to do anything. You're going to be here forever. Yeah. Yeah, so it was just that constant refrain, right? And, you know, and so, yeah, it was at about an eight by the time I walked out of prison.

That's pretty powerful. Yeah. That's really powerful. Where would you say you're at today? Today I'm at a 10. Man, life is great. It's complex. You know, the things that happen, I just acknowledge them for what they are.

You know, I had a tough year last year. It was probably one of the toughest years that I've had, you know, in a very, very long time. Why is that? My younger brother was murdered. My dog was our puppy. We had like a one-year-old beautiful puppy. Left him with a trainer.

The trainer calls me the next day. Puppy had got ran over. Oh, gosh, man. You know, I got, you know, dealt with, like, illness and just, it was just brutal. You know, it was a brutal, brutal year. And, you know, what I found to be the most healing was that I was actually able to sit up and say, you know, I'm sad. Express it. I was able to literally articulate those words.

I was, you know, I went through the anger phase with my brother. And I remember, like, I flew home to Detroit. And it was just like all the autopilot of like, OK, we get my brother buried let me make sure my parents are good you know let me navigate all the things the kind of thinginess of reaction to you know negative experiences right where it's just like autopilot is fix fix fix correct you know all those things and that pause and feel not pause and feel and I remember we were sitting you sitting in a hotel room right outside of Detroit. And it was my girlfriend, my partner.

We like to call each other partners. I think we're a little too old to be boyfriend and girlfriend. My partner Liz and I and my friend Calvin, we were sitting there and we were talking. And the tears just came. And I was like, I'm sad. Like, I'm sad that my brother's in here. I'm sad that he didn't get a chance to experience all the great things that we had planned together. Um, and then when the puppy, you know, got ran over, it was the same thing of just being able to say,

like, hey, this was my companion. One of the things that I experienced with my puppy that I didn't know was like, I got shot when I was walking, and so there's negative emotions attached to that experience, and when I got the puppy I had to take him out and walk and I was like wow this is the first time that I've walked freely in almost 30 years that kind of allowed you to heal and it allowed me to heal you know so you know to lose that was devastating but it was really

sad because he was like so joyful and my son was sad. And, you know, to be able to cry with him, you know, and just hold him and experience like his sadness, but also our love. for that and for us to be able to experience sadness together and love and, you know, vulnerability. And, you know, and so it just made a tough year fulfilling and enlightening in this way that, you know, I just recently started coming out on the other side of, you know, and I'm excited about that, you know, but I'm also excited that I experienced the sadness and I was able to express that and to still feel aligned with just like joy and fulfillment you know and to know that that's part of it yeah is you know sadness is gonna happen but joy comes in being able to fully express all of your emotions yes and like as a dad you know i don't think there's a greater gift i can give my son than full access to his emotions by modeling that for him absolutely what do you think what do you

think when i did um my book the masculine masculinity back in almost five years ago now i did a little tour right for the book and i would sit in rooms of a few hundred people and I would sit in rooms of a few hundred people, usually 50-50 men and women. And I would, at one point in every speech, I would say, for all the ladies in the room, raise your hands if once a week you get together with a girlfriend or girlfriends or your mom and you talk about your insecurities,

your feelings, your emotions around relationship or body image or work. And pretty much all the women would raise their hand. And I'd say, okay, for the guys in the room, how many of you get together once a month and talk about your feelings with another guy or guy friends? You talk about your relationship issues. You talk about your self-doubt, your body image issues, these different vulnerabilities. And it'd only be like one or two hands would go up

out of like 100 something, right? I'd say, how many of you guys are in like a church group where this is kind of mandatory every month to get together and like do this? And they're kind of laughing, yes. And I said, ladies, how many of you guys do this every day? You talk about your feelings. Maybe it's 30 minutes over lunch.

You express yourself. And most of them kept their hand up. And I go, guys, how many of you in the room never do this? And most of the guys put their hand up. Maybe once a year or something they have a moment where they're vulnerable. And I go, ladies ladies imagine what it would feel like to never be able to express your emotions to never be able to say say how you feel what would that do to you and most of them like it drive me

crazy I'd go nuts I'd explode right and I go look what's happening with the men in the world they're exploding on others whether it be verbally whether it be online whether it be verbally, whether it be online, whether it be domestic violence, whether it be, you know, any other type of violence out there. And I'm curious, what do you think, what do you think will happen if human beings, men and women, all human beings, never express their feelings and emotions and don't learn to heal their trauma what do you think will happen I think if if we continue to create these personal prisons around people these emotional spiritual prisons

around people you know we'll continue to see these massive upticks in violence. We'll continue to see this just kind of disdain for each other that shows up in social media. We'll never get to a space where there's like clear conversations and healthy dialogue and, you know, other things. And, you know, it's so interesting, you know, when I think about being here on this podcast. interesting, you know, when I think about being here on this podcast and I think about just the many brilliant minds you talked through over the course of, you know, you building out this great platform and how much of it is about, you know, just like greatness and success and, you know, sometimes even about wealth building. And, you know, and I think all those things are drivers for me, right? Like I love the grind. I love the hustle. You know, I I think all those things are drivers for me, right? Like, I love the grind. I love the hustle.

You know, I come from the streets. So, like, that mindset of, like, entrepreneurship and building something and doing a thing, like, I love it. You know, it's super exciting to be here to talk about it. But I think the greatest untapped resource we have in the world right now is the emotions of men. Like when we are able to fully be ourselves, to authentically be connected emotionally, to be able to be vulnerable and intimate, you know, with each other, with our significant others, with our our children like everything around us just gets better yes like it just gets better and it's like such a great untapped resource um and feel accepted for our emotions absolutely not feel shamed made wrong made less than because we are have vulnerability absolutely or express sadness every now then, or share tears every now and then.

And I can just say this, right? We talk about privilege in the world, right? We talk about white privilege, we talk about gender specific privilege. Like I know I sit in a space of privilege when I'm talking about emotional vulnerability, because I've dealt with the toughest things you can deal with in life, right? So there's not a guy that's going to come and question like toughness, right? So I have

a cheat code, so to speak. Like I can talk to these things and, you know, I don't have to worry about the shaming that comes with like, oh, he's soft because he's talking about feelings now or whatever the things are. So I, you know, I'm fortunate in that regard, right? And I don't take that for granted. You lived a tough life. I lived a tough life, yeah. And you got the results of what that looks like. Absolutely, absolutely. And you continue to have more and more pain and restriction based on living that lifestyle, right? Absolutely, absolutely. And that's why the subtitle of the book is an invitation. And I know that I'm a great ambassador to invite people to join this party of emotional vulnerability and love because I've overcome the most adverse

conditions imaginable. The hardest things are things that I wasn't supposed to survive. Like nobody's supposed to get out of solitary confinement and to operate in love. Nobody's supposed to get out of solitary confinement and be a successful writer, successful tech entrepreneur, successful investor. Nobody's supposed to be able to get out of solitary confinement and dream or imagine a life that is beyond what people who've never been in solitary confinement imagine for themselves. So I have the cheat code, right, which comes with responsibility. And it's one of the reasons that, you know, I chose to like write and I choose to talk from these vulnerable spaces because it's a blessing. The cheat code is a blessing. The hack is a blessing, right? It's this ability to understand that I know this is what men crave. Somebody just has to open up the pathway for it. Somebody has to invite them into, like, life gets so much better when you're not in turmoil when you're not aching when you're not you know waking up with worry and fear and dread and you know all the things that

stand in the way of like achieving great outcomes life is beautiful you know when you're not beating up on yourself internally life is magic like it's the most magical thing is when you're just like, hey, I love life. You know, I love joy. I love fulfillment. And it doesn't have to be hard and it doesn't have to be complex. And like those things don't make me a man. Like I was the least manly the night I pulled that trigger.

I was a boy having a grown-up tantrum, you know, because my emotions weren't processed in a healthy way. You know, I'm the most masculine and the most man that I can ever be is when I'm actually loving my son. You know, when I'm taking care of him, like, you know, I talk a little bit about like the details of care. Like I think love is in the details, right? Like when I'm able to, think love is in the details right like when I'm able to like literally just two nights ago my son is um he had a loose tooth you know and he's like dad I just really want to get the tooth out right and I'm just like you know I'm not screaming by any stretch of the imagination but I also don't want to hurt him I don't want it to be a traumatic event like old school let me tell you y'all just rip it on out right and so you know we go into the bathroom

and and you know we're trying to figure out how to loop the the the string around it's like a weird set is his mouth and then there was this moment where i was just like gently like rocking it and then the tooth like comes out and it was like the most gentle extraction possible you need the pliers yeah you know and there's like this moment where he's just he's it's joy right it's pure joy you know and so like those moments of fatherhood like that feels great you know preparing a meal for him when he specifically wants something that i'll prepare for him in a way that he likes you know folding up his lingerie like all the details teaching him a new skill set that isn't athletic, that isn't combative.

It's not about the sports and just letting him be. I'm a big sports guy. And the complex thing now in the world of political correctness, right? The complex thing like now in the world of political correctness, right? It's like you can't say you like to see people's face pummeled on UFC and that you're also a kind, loving, and gentle partner. But that's the truth of who I am. Like, I love boxing. I love combat sports.

Yeah, man. I love basketball. I love football. And I get all the things associated with it. But I love it. You know, I love the crash them up bang bang reality of you know i love cars with big engines and that guzzle way too much gas but i also love sitting you know present with my son and hugging him also love sitting in deep beautiful conversations with my partner and receiving love yeah you know and those things don't have to be dissimilar. It's beautiful, man.

Now that you're, you know, a father, what are the three things you wish you had as a child growing up that you are giving to your kids and you want more parents to give? What are those three things that if you would have received, you think would have changed the course of your life in a different way? I think

the three things that I think about most is complete and full access to healthy emotions as expressed by my parents. Like witnessing them have healthy emotions as expressed by my parents. Like witnessing them have healthy emotions,

modeling it? Witnessing them, modeling it, and then- Being able to do it yourself. Being able to do it myself. Safety, like the safety of emotional vulnerability from my parents. I wish the second thing would be the freedom to fully express all of my curiosity, all of my artistry, all of, you know, my emotions. And when I think about that, you know, I just think about, you know, my son. And how he's able to fully express himself.

You know, he can wear Mitch Mack shoes. He can draw on his clothes. He can do pretty much whatever he wants to. He just has this freedom. I wish I had that freedom of expression. I think that's so important. And I would just say emotional and psychological safety. So one is like emotional modeling of vulnerability, but emotional and psychological safety to me for a child, I just think is the greatest gift that parents can give. You know, it creates deep, deep trust.

It creates confidence. You know, it creates space for just like children to imagine all the things possible. And I see it with my son. He's so confident. That's nice. In a way that's not arrogant and cocky, which comes out of insecurities. He's confident because he's been able to just be free. The challenge is a lot of parents have kids

and they haven't healed their wounds. Absolutely. And so how do we teach or educate or empower new parents to do the work themselves, the inner healing work, the trauma work, the inner child work? It's tough. It's tough because a lot of us

become our parents in different ways, for bad or for good. And if you're traumatized and you weren't allowed to share emotions, then maybe you do the same, you repeat the pattern. Yeah, you repeat the pattern. And then there's cultural realities, right? Like I grew up in, you know,

you don't know I'm like black, right? So like I grew up in no you don't know I'm like black I grew up in an environment where you know corporal punishment is like a normal part of the conversation you know if you watch black comedians they talk about you know getting whoops when they were, when they were young, right. And we poke fun at it because that's what we kind of tend to laugh at our pain. Some of the most difficult conversation I've ever had as a mentor is when I'm talking to parents about physical violence. Like that's, it's physically a violent thing to, you know, hit your child out of anger and frustration and, own insecurities and all the things, right? So what I try to do is create space for role reversal and empathy.

And sometimes it can be a little gnarly and hard to unpack those conversations. But I always just think about if we can get to a space of thinking, like, what did you need most as a child? What did you desire the most as a child? And then put yourself in your child's shoes, right? And parenting is tough. Like, it's like complex, you know? It's like, you know, there are so many things we're thinking about all the time as parents, right? Are they safe?

Are they fed? Did they do their homework? Did they go to this thing? Did they, do they got good friends? Are they, you know, avoiding trouble? And a lot of times it's rooted in our own experiences. Sure. So just helping parents bring themselves to presence and just saying, Hey, you know, detach your ego, you know,

detach yourself from your trauma and really give them space to just be, you know, who they're intended to be. If someone feels talking about detaching from your ego or your past or your trauma, if someone feels like something's off inside, you know, they've been driven by anger or to prove because they were picked on or didn't have the right support from their parents

or the love that they wished they would have received or for whatever reason. They feel like, inside, I don't feel inner peace. And maybe they don't even know that they don't need to let go of the past, right?

Because I didn't know this until I realized like my life is not working at a level and I'm still in pain and I'm sick and tired of feeling this inner pain. So instead of chasing things, I'm going to like look within and start healing. What would you say would be the first three steps to take if someone wants to let go and detach

of their past and their traumas and start moving into peace? I would say acknowledgement is the first thing. Like, you have to acknowledge it. You know, you cannot fix what you're not willing to acknowledge is broken. So acknowledgement is a big thing. Apology is a big thing. is a big thing apology to his herself mmm like once you can acknowledge the ways that you've hurt yourself in a ways you've been hurt in the way that you've hurt others like apologizing to self is powerful and then it's kind of atoning with yourself. Like, how do you become at one and how do you heal and get back to that space? And for me, what it looked like was like meditating was like one of the greatest gifts I've ever given myself.

This ability to just kind of process and breathe and really exhale all this negative energy, right? Yeah, releasing it. And then it was the journaling, you know, which I consider meditation on paper, freeing up and liberating myself from old narratives and old hurtful and harmful things. And then, you know, that mindfulness practice, just bringing myself back to the moment you know and you know in the moment you know really being present with like here's what's actually happened versus the story I'm telling myself and you know I'm talking about it in and letters to the sons of society there's this moment where I'm talking about the

dread that comes with living in a racialized culture, right? And, you know, I've talked about police brutality. I've talked about all the things going on in the world. And what I realized is that a lot of times when we're having these conversations, we're having them from a source of pain and it makes it hard for the other person to receive it because our pain pain when we're

filtering through pain, it comes across as angry and people just put up a wall, right? And sometimes we are angry and rightfully so. But there was a moment where I was up at about two or three in the morning, and my puppy had got sick, he had pooped in a crate. And I'm out in the middle of the night I'm in the new neighborhood I hadn't been there long you know it's a pretty nice neighborhood in West LA and it's 3 in the morning so I got a hoodie on I got jogging pants on it's dark and I'm out making all this noise cuz I'm cleaning up the crate and now you gotta imagine it 3 in the morning just got woke up with dog poop it's not the most gentle thing you're banging things

around yeah and I had this moment that was paralyzing and I froze and I was like what if my neighbors call the police I think you're doing something that's supposed to think I'm doing something I'm not supposed to when the police arrived are they going to see a homeowner who's upset because he's cleaning puppy poop at three in the morning or are they going to see a black guy in a hoodie that looks to fit all the profiles of what we see on tv and that moment was so jarring and it wasn't until i was like able to bring myself to mindfulness and say you you know, this isn't happening. I'm actually a homeowner in my backyard cleaning poop up.

Everybody does it. You know, but it's like that's what, one, living up under the cloak of an oppressive kind of idea. But, two, that's what mindfulness does. It can get you dislodged from that paralyzing moment. Right. And so that's why it's such a integral part of my own journey and and it's really you know kind of gave me a competitive edge when I'm in a world of whether it's in the world of business whether it's selling books whether it's you know manifesting all the things that I believe that the universe has an

abundance for me that ability to shift out of self-defeating thoughts, out of negative narratives, out of ideas that don't serve me on the journey that I'm on and where I want to go in life, being able to bring myself to that moment and say, I'm actually sitting across from Lewis having a great conversation as opposed to the 10 other things that can potentially be running in the background. That's powerful. I'm curious, Shaka, would you say that's the same process, these three steps to the process of letting go of shame and guilt and the feeling that I'm a bad person for things I've done?

Is that the same steps, or how did you let go of shame and the feeling like I'm a bad person as opposed to I did something bad versus I'm a bad person? Yeah, that's a great question. And the way that I think about it is the accumulative effect of living life, right? Like we live through so many moments in our lives, right?

And, you know as a person who navigates a world where data is always being processed and numbers are being crunched you know you think about the moments that we hold on to that are negative they're usually minor by comparison to all the great and good moments we have we fixate on those fixate on those things right yeah it's kind of like you have one a a beautiful pristine white suit and it gets a little splash of mud on the hill and you're obsessed over over the cuff where the little splash that instead of the amazing suit that you have on right and for me it's just like

understanding that once a moment has happened it can's not, no longer exists other than in your mind. Like the moments that I've lived through, those moments no longer exist. Those aren't moments I'm living in. I'm living in the right now, right? So it's really like liberating yourself from old moments, you know, that have already happened and I think sometimes we live in spaces that we don't control like you can't control the past the past has already happened like you can reflect on it you can go back and attach some energy to the emotions or whatever the case may be but you

can't recreate the moment is already passed and then the future hasn't arrived yet you know you could plan for it and think about what it'll look like and do everything in your power to manifest it. But you can't control it because it hasn't arrived yet. You know, and I think all too often we're living in those two worlds as opposed to, like, being centered in the right now. And so the way that I've helped, you know, free myself from those things is being present in the right now and, you know, erasing that videotape, you know, of the past, you know, or at least putting it in the closet unless it's necessary to bring out and express it in a way that's going to add value. Right, right. This is powerful stuff, man. I feel like we could talk for hours on this, but I want to be respectful of your time.

You got a couple of amazing books. This one we have in front of me is Letters to the Sons of Society, A Father's Invitation to Love, Honesty, and Freedom. Were any of these letters that you wrote, or any of this that you wrote in prison, in this book? No, these are all letters I wrote during the imprisonment of the pandemic. So, in our COVID, during our COVID, I call that my COVID baby.

You know, there was a lot going on in the world, you know, and a lot is going on since my first major release, nearly over six years ago, Right In My Wrongs I've released that six years ago and I've grown tremendously you know as a man as a dad you know I took my time writing another book because I wanted I only like to write when I have something to say so it's that was six years ago right yeah and this came out in January yeah this one came out in January I waited my my next book is five and a half years after my last book I Yeah. Because I wanted to, but I was like, I don't feel ready to, I don't feel like I have the right thing to say yet.

Absolutely. You don't want to just put it out just to put something out. So that's good. Yeah. And that's what it was with this book. You know, so much was happening in the world, you know, as a dad, you know, as a black man, you know, as someone who navigates the world of you know hollywood and tech and then the neighborhoods right i have this very complex you know um network of friends from every walk of life you can imagine different races and genders and i just have tons of great friends

right and great people who inspire me and and, you know, I was really just thinking like, you know, what do I want to talk about? And then the world just started going berserk. And I was like, I got to memorialize some of these moments. I got to talk to my sons of society. I was really thinking broadly about, you know, kids I mentor, you know, people I work with in the world of hip hop. And, you know, I started writing, you know, down these ideas. And I was like, you know, I'm just going to the world of hip hop. And, you know, I started writing, you know, down these ideas. And I was like, you know, I'm just going to write these letters to my two sons. And because between my 30 year old son, Jay, who grew up while I was in prison, my 10 year

old son, who I'm raising now. Sekou? Yeah, Sekou are all of my sons of society. say, cool, are all of my sons of society. And so I started writing these letters, man, and they cover things that we don't talk about as dads. You know, you talked about earlier about the freedom that came later on when you were able to talk about, you know, sexual abuse. Yes. I write about my experiences growing up and being over sexualized as a teenager and how that impacted relationships you know um you know I talk about what it's like to bear witness to George Floyd's demise in this public spectacle um and what I want my sons to learn from that. You know, I talk about love, like how rich life is when you're able to fully access love and share love.

You know, I talk about the affirmations that I do with my son, you know, and that I hope other dads adopt and emotional vulnerability, accessibility, you know, success. You know, living your dream, building your dream, writing and expressing your dream. So I get a chance to talk about all the things that excite me today as a dad and as a man. And what's interesting with this book is oftentimes people try to lump us into these categories, right? They're like, okay, this is a book for black dads, or this is a book for dads. It's like,

it's a human story. I just happen to be a black dad living in America. But what I have to say in this book is rooted in the human tapestry.

You know, it's love. There's no colors to that. It's vulnerability. There's no gender identity to that. You know, it's healing. There's no gender identity to that. It's healing. There's no class identity to that. It's success. We all have the potential to dream as wide and as big as possible and to decide if we want to pursue those dreams. So it's so universal in the messaging.

It just happened to be expressed through the lens of me being a dad you know and raising a 10 year old son and in the current realities and you know dreaming up what I hope you know this wisdom does for his life yeah man inspiring stuff man really inspire what you're creating I want people to get the book I want them to follow you. You're on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, all the places. What's the place you hang out the most? In social, in the social world, I kind of like my throwback Facebook page because I can write a little bit longer on that. I like to write notes, but I'm on IG.

I'm on Twitter, Clubhouse. You're still on there, huh? Yeah. I got off there a while ago. You're still active in there. People are in there a lot? Yeah, yeah. Okay, cool.

You know, there's great conversations happening there. So I'll pop in and have a great conversation. So love that crew. And LinkedIn, I'm on there as well, figuring out that space. But yeah, I'm on there as well, figuring out that space, but yeah, I'm there. And everything is up under my name, and website, all that stuff is all the same. You've got shakasancore.com for your website

where you can get all the books and content and information. What's the thing you're most excited about for the future? Man, I am super excited about my current role as the head of sales and success for our company, Trip Actions. It is, it's kind of like it brings all together all the things that I love, right? You know, I love working with talented people. I love working with people who just dream big

and massive and just like, you know, we're going to collaborate and we're just going to work together to just build this new world and this new way of being in the world. And then I get a chance to tell stories and help my team become just the best storytellers that they're capable of. And like to be entrusted with that responsibility is really affirming. You know, quickly, I'll tell you this story I had in this conversation I had with our CEO, you know, who's a friend of mine. He's my friend of mine before I joined the company. And he always said to me, you know, he was like, you know, I want to see you just navigate the world based on your talent, not based on your past.

And he was like, you have so much to contribute to the world that has absolutely nothing to do with the time you serve it's because of who you are as a person and for us to partner years later and him asked me to join the company it's pretty cool because he believes I'm one of the best storytellers that he's ever met and he's entrusted me with the sales team I'm super excited about that man and it's a new role and we're having fun with it. We're building it in real time. I did the first sales training a couple of weeks ago and it was a big hit with our leadership team. And so I'm excited, man. I get

a chance to utilize my skill sets in different ways. You know, I don't have to talk about my work in criminal justice, which is really important to me and work that I'll always do, my work in criminal justice, which is really important to me and work that I'll always do, but it's not all of who I am, you know? So as a writer, as a storyteller, to be able to use those skillsets to help build out the vision of our company, it's nothing more exciting right now. Living the dream, man. Living the dream. I love this, man. I want people to get the book, Letters to the Sons of Society. Make sure you guys get a couple of copies, really inspiring letters in here. Make sure you guys check this man. I want people to get the book letters to the sons of society Make sure you guys get a couple copies really inspiring letters in here. Make sure you guys check this out I got a question. I ask everyone at the end called the three truths. So imagine It's your last day on earth many years away. You get to live as long as you want

yeah, you get to accomplish and achieve and Do everything you want to do but eventually you got to call quits in this world in this life and for whatever reason you got to take all your work with you all your book your message this interview anything you put out in the world it's got to go with you all your content but you get to leave behind three things you know to be true with the world this is all we would have to remember of your information three lessons you would true with the world? This is all we would have to remember of your information. Three lessons you would share with the world.

What would you say are those three truths? The three truths that I would share is love wins. That would be my number one, love wins. The second truth would be the universe is abundant The second truth would be the universe is abundant in every resource we will ever need to live the kind of life that we desire. And the third thing would be to never settle for mediocrity when greatness is available. I would acknowledge you, Shaka, for your transformation. I think it's really easy for human beings to stay stuck in a past that they're used to. It's easy to stay in blame mode, in anger mode, in frustration, in lack of accountability, responsibility, right?

It's easy to hold on to pain and shame. It's hard to shift into love, accountability, responsibility, apologizing, forgiveness, all these different things. It's hard to express your emotions in a vulnerable way. It's hard to do good consistently when you've been stuck in an environment, a past that didn't foster that. So I really acknowledge you for shifting while you're in prison and continuing to add value to yourself, to your family, and to the world by teaching, by inspiring, by creating all the work that you do, man.

It's really inspiring. And more people need to hear your message and be connected to your message because a lot of people are suffering and in pain. And I think, you know, I was telling you, my brother was in prison for four and a half years and there's a lot of suffering in prison, right? A lot of pain, a lot of suffering,

a lot of stuff that goes down. And I witnessed part of prison, right? Absolutely. A lot of pain, a lot of suffering, a lot of stuff that goes down. And I witnessed part of this, right? I wasn't in jail, but I witnessed the pain that is caused to a family when someone is in jail. Yeah. I heard about all the crazy traumas and madness that happens in prison, right? The stuff that creates you more scared, you know, living in prison, more in fear with the different stuff going on in jail.

So I really acknowledge you for learning how to shift out of that, learning how to heal. And there's a lot of people in the world who aren't in physical prison, but they're in emotional, mental prison, spiritual prison, and they're trapped. So I'm so grateful that you're teaching how to get out of that from the physical and the spiritual side point as well. And excited for what you're creating, man. It's really, really beautiful stuff. Thank you so much for that. I truly received that. And that really touched me, you know, and to be seen, you know, know Oprah and I we had a conversation one day and she said one of the greatest desires for human beings is to truly be seen absolutely and so thank you for that course a lot and thank you for this

incredible platform like you know I reached out to you and you just was like hey let's do it yeah man so I'm truly honored to be here you know I think that the work you're doing is so purposeful and so transformative. And to be a part of that journey with you now means a lot to me. So thank you so much for having me. Of course, man. Final question for you. What's your definition of greatness? My definition of greatness is the ability to do something good over and over. You know, whatever that specific field of focus is right you know when i think about michael jordan i think about kobe and lebron and you know my one of my

favorite tom brady is like that's what separate the great from the good you know anybody's playing pro sports or we know they're good they're in and pros right but the greats have the ability to execute over and over and whatever that is execute kindness execute you know whatever success metrics you're using but the ability to just show up over and over again to me that's like great you know and I think about being a great dad is because I know every day consistently I'm gonna show up in the best way possible as a dad. And I'm going to do it over and over. It's not going to be a one-off.

So when I think of greatness, I think of repeated goodness. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's show with all the important links. And also make sure to share this with a friend and subscribe over on Apple Podcasts as well. I really love hearing feedback from you guys. So share a review over on Apple and let me know what part of this episode resonated with you the most. And if no one's told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.

And now it's time to go out there and do something great.