The School of Greatness - Heal First, Love Better: The Repair Framework That Changes Everything

Episode Date: October 20, 2025

Baya Voce opens up about the hidden cost of living in a world that promises everything without friction while our relationships demand the exact opposite. She shares the counterintuitive truth that bending over backwards in relationships isn't love, it's self-abandonment, and explains why most couples fail not because they fight, but because they never learned to repair properly. Through raw personal stories and research-backed frameworks, Baya breaks down the difference between accepting someone's limitations and enabling their dysfunction. This conversation will shift how you think about conflict forever, giving you practical tools to turn your messiest relationship moments into opportunities for genuine intimacy and growth.Sign up for Baya’s newsletterFollow Baya on InstagramIn this episode you will:Discover why your nervous system needs friction to build resilience and how avoiding small conflicts actually creates bigger ones laterTransform your relationship arguments using the repair framework that stops the blame cycle before it spiralsLearn the critical difference between change and effort in partnerships and why confusing them keeps you stuck in resentmentBreak free from the cultural myth that bending over backwards equals love and start setting boundaries without guiltMaster the art of staying present during emotional reactions instead of running away or people-pleasing your way through conflictFor more information go to https://lewishowes.com/1839For more Greatness text PODCAST to [phone]More SOG episodes we think you’ll love:Baya Voce pt. 1 – greatness.lnk.to/1836SCMatthew Hussey  – greatness.lnk.to/1782SCLiz Gilbert – greatness.lnk.to/1681SC Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy!Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Previously on the School of Greatness. There is no truth in relationship. There are just two people who are having their own experiences and you live in your world and I live over here in my world. And as long as we're arguing for the truth, we're both going to lose because the truth doesn't actually exist. If we're fighting the truth, we are fighting a losing battle. Period.

Full stop. So I'm curious then, how long were you dating men until you started dating your wife or women? I was dating men basically from elementary school. until I met my wife. Really? Yeah, I never thought. There wasn't ever a coming out story. In fact, when I first met Emmy, I would-

This is the story. We'll probably, you know, I know. When I first met Emmy, I- How old were you when you started dating her? My mid-30s. Oh. Yeah. Okay.

And- So you were dating a man right before that? Yeah. Were you ever engaged to a man or married? I was engaged at one point. I was engaged to a man. One point you were engaged in a man. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Interesting. So what's, I guess, what's the, I know, I know. What's the, what happened? Sure, tell me what happened. Tell me what happened or why, why, um, go from, you know, dating man after man after man to now being married to a woman. Well, first of all, I, I don't know is the true answer, but that's just the truth. I, there's a term that I'm not thinking of, uh, right now.

that someone's going to tell us exactly what it is. Don't worry, I know someone will tell this. But it's basically that we're raised in a straight culture. And so we are, you know, you may think you're straight until all of a sudden, Emmy, my wife walks up and I'm like, huh, what's that that I feel that I've never felt for another woman before? Were you attracted to men, though, before? I'm still attracted to men.

I'm still attracted to men. In fact, I mean, God forbid, Emmy and I ever break up, I hope we never do but I would be very confused about what to do. I would not know whether to date a woman or a man. I wouldn't have any idea what to do. Because you're not attracted to other women. That's not, but that's not

necessarily true actually. I, my aperture has opened since being with Emmy. I didn't, Emmy was like a, I did not imagine I would be attracted to a woman. I saw her and something lit up in me and I was like oh, I remember making out with a chick when I was like 21 years old but didn't think anything

I don't think anything of it. But never in a million years could I have ever guessed. Really? Yeah, but I'm very open-minded. And so I think my level of openness was such that I could even explore. Explore. So what happened with the engagement to the man? How long were you together with or engaged for?

Like, what was the total relationship? This is a, this was a tricky one. Because I don't know much about your backstory. You don't have a lot of this online. No, no, and especially this one. And this is the first time we'll talk about this. This is, I'll talk about this publicly. So, so I met a guy on Tinder who I was living in Salt Lake.

He had just moved to Salt Lake. And he out of the gate was basically everything I could have ever asked for. Like love bombing everything, every, or more looked like. Well, I didn't know that term then. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yes, that's exactly what was happening. This wasn't the Tinder Swindler, was it? Well, it wasn't not the Tinder Swindler.

But it wasn't that guy. No, no, it wasn't that guy. No. And honestly, as I'm thinking about this, I'm like, oh, funny, this is probably in some ways what I did to other guys. Other guys, but didn't realize I was doing it. Anyhow, he was just making himself into the exact version that I, I couldn't, at that point. He's a dream guy. The dream guy.

I'm in my young 20s, or mid-20s, excuse me. He's tall, dark, and handsome. He's got money. He's spiritual. He's got great family. He wasn't any of those things, but he did fit whatever bill I wanted him to fit at that point. and so we got engaged after being together for a year and as it was like an explosive year I'm assuming oh it was the whole thing everything charming travel the whole thing yeah yeah and got engaged after

one year one year and then how long was the engagement not long basically right after the engagement ended we or excuse me after the after he proposed to me things started to go big time and all the sudden, we were looking at houses and every time we would almost put a contract into a house, he would have some reason or another why we shouldn't do that. And then I went, I didn't want to move in. At that point, I was kind of romanticizing moving in together after getting engaged. So we didn't live together. Okay. And I will never forget this. I went over to his house and we had just gotten into a fight, but it wasn't actually a big fight. I don't even remember what it was. It was disagreement. We were, yeah. And both.

I went over to his house to talk about it, and I look around his house. I walk in, and all of our photos were gone. And I was like, what is going on here? And he sits me down on the couch, and he's like, this is over. Was it like a month after the engagement? This was a few months, a few months. Just dead, like, his heart had completely left the building. And I'm like, what are you talking about?

And by the way, I didn't think I wanted to get married. So even getting to the point of engagement was a massive deal for me. so he he tells me it's because I don't want kids and he does but we had talked about this again I had this whole story about why I didn't want kids I've changed my mind but anyway I thought it and we date one talked about this I was very clear this is and he was totally okay with it like then he realized I do want kids or that's what he says yeah yeah so he tells me this is the reason why he's breaking up with you there's nothing you can do it's over even if you say okay I want kids now. So I begged him. I literally I was on the floor with my hands in prayer just saying

sobbing. Please just give me a week to think about it. Please just give me. And he is stone cold. There is no emotion in his face. And he just looks at me and he says, no, it's over. Like nothing. There was nothing I could say. So I left, I left his house being so confused. I had no idea what was going on. Now, right before this, we had planned a trip to Mexico. We actually didn't go on that vacation. So this was a big deal that we were going to Mexico. He had gotten us this hotel. We were going with some friends. He had gotten us supposedly some very nice hotel. Our friends couldn't afford it. They were staying somewhere else. We were staying in this other hotel. 24 hours or I don't know, one or two days before we leave. He calls me and he's like, hey, we can't

go on this trip anymore. You're really stressed. I don't want to stress you out anymore. We're not going to go on this trip. And I was like, what are you talking about? I'm fine. We can go on this trip. And he was like, no, no, no. I'm launching a business. We're not going to go on this trip. And I was like, what? This was a big deal. Like, I didn't go on vacation a lot. This was, I was like, what do you mean? Our friends are going?

You can't just cancel this trip. And he has all these reasons why he's launching this business. And he says, but you can go without me. You can go without me. And I'm like, I'm not going to, of course I'm not going to go without you. Anyhow. So that happens, you know, that was maybe a few weeks before. Then he breaks up with me.

Then I am super confused. I'm talking to my friends about like, what just happened? Like, this came out of nowhere. and a friend of mine goes, maybe just call that hotel in Mexico. Let's see if you actually booked it? Uh-huh. And there was no reservation under his name.

And that sent me down a rabbit hole. He walked me around his college campus at one point telling me about his football team that he played on. He was never on this football team. He told me he was going to school at the University of Utah and he moved to Utah to go to school there. He didn't even apply. He told me he worked at the,

hospital called he never worked at the hospital like it was it was why after a lot and so and by the way at this point I'm a matchmaker I have a monthly segment on ABC talk on the local ABC channel talking about dating advice I'm like Utah's dating you know I'm young but I'm yeah yeah so anyway I'm doing all of this while this is all happened like the the amount of she I never thought this could happen to somebody like me in a million years the amount of shame that I felt like I'm the one giving advice or helping others with their relationships and yet this is happening to me. I got duped or he was lying or whatever. Yeah.

And I didn't see it because the love bombing was so strong. I didn't see it coming even a little bit. And it was not only the love bombing was so strong, but I wanted to see in him or us of a future that was never going to exist. Man. And that was. You wanted to see in him or the relationship a future that was never going to exist. Yeah.

I had this idea of what love could look like. And the thing about love bombing is what and unhealthy manipulative dynamics in general is that that's the thing that keeps you coming back, right? You keep coming back to this. It was like this. Can it get back there? It was like this. Can it get?

And it never gets back there. You're in the power struggle constantly. Constantly. You want to go back to soul made. This is perfect. Everything's amazing. Let's go back to where it was. It never goes back.

No. But listen, that's what had me go into the research. that's what had me go into school. That's what had me. I mean, that relationship kicked off for me. I was interested in relationships before, obviously. He became obsessed.

Obsessed because I also wanted to know what it was about me that got me into something like that. Of course. I think I could relate to that in like just going through five kind of stressful relationships that, you know, again, we have to both take, like you said, responsibility for our part in being in something, not doing deeper research or not asking questions or when, you know, something felt off. Like, you know, I did some of the things where I was like, huh, what is that?

You know, why did they ever bring their friends around? Why do they hide this part of their life? Why do they not talk about this earlier phase of the life? Why do they, whatever it is. And just thinking, oh, but they're amazing. Like, everything's fine. It's like we have to both or everyone watching or listening has to take responsibility for those signs or signals or just saying, hmm, maybe I jumped in too quickly.

I did that a lot too. It was like, let's just jump in and it's exciting and fun and amazing. and I had multiple relationships, probably five or six long-term relationships between one and three years or whatever since I was, whatever, 18, that all ended. And it wasn't until I took full responsibility that I was the common denominator of all these, that I was the one that needed to heal the wounded parts in me that lack courage to ask those courageous questions or hold space when there was an explosion as opposed to giving in, like a chameleon or whatever it might be, I needed to regulate my emotions first

and then meet people from a different lens, rather than meeting people from a wounded lens without doing the work. I will say, though, that part of us learning how to regulate our nervous systems is practice. Of course. So it's really easy to... Under the fire. Do the work when you're single. Yeah, well, there's nothing...

Yeah, I'm fine. In the relationship when it's stressful. Yeah. It's interesting you say that because when I started to cut you off here, when I was in the end of a previous relationship, there was a time where I was just like it was like a year of just intense power up and down, up and down every few days. It's like repair and then struggle, repair struggle. It was like exhausting.

And I was like, I finally was like, I can't do this anymore unless we do therapy. And she resisted it for about a year. I was just like, I'm done unless we can do this. This is exhausting. We finally agreed. We do therapy. After a couple months, I remember being like, oh, I cannot be in this relationship. It was clear.

Like I tried, I wanted it, but I was like, it's clear I cannot be in this relationship. And I remember talking to the therapist. It was like, I think I'm going to end it right now, which took a lot of courage for me just to even do that because I never wanted to end relationships because I thought was a failure if it ended, right? So I was like, I want to work to the very end. It's like, I'm willing to do. whatever it takes, but then it's like, sometimes what it takes is just like moving on.

And the therapist said, you can do that right now, but I worry if you do it right now without integrating these tools in this pain, in the relationship, you might just do the same thing again in the future. So again, I'm not here to tell you what to do. Like, it's your life. And I think when a therapist or a coach tells you do this or do that, I think you have to like understand that. She was like, I wouldn't recommend ending the relationship right now.

I would recommend you applying what you're learning so you can integrate it and have more safety in chaos. And that's what I did for three months. I mean, I spent like three months of dealing with almost every week a silent treatment for a couple of days, antics, screaming, all these things. And I just said, I see what you're doing. When you're ready to talk, we can talk, but not until you're calm. And I would spend days in the same home.

without speaking to someone who just wanted to throw these kind of things to get a reaction. Because that was hurt. What ended up happening? After a couple of months, I just said, this isn't working. I want the best for you. Like calmly ended it and just said, I want the best for you. We don't have alignment on our values and our vision. And that's okay.

And I want the best for you. And I want to keep doing therapy and healing it. And I know I'm not perfect. I want the best for you. But this is not working. And she didn't like that. You know, she didn't want that. She wanted me to keep, you know, giving into whatever.

And then I felt actually peace with full within me because I was handling conflict without running away from it. Yeah. Without stuffing it or running away from it. I was facing it for months. And it wasn't comfortable. I didn't enjoy it. It's not what I wanted.

But it gave me confidence and courage that, oh, I can handle this again if it happens. And I can respond differently than how I've responded for decades. And that's been a beautiful blessing, integrating tools in the chaos when it doesn't feel good. Well, and then you carry it on to your next relationships. And that's what I've done. And that's what it's allowed me to have harmony in my soul. It is the, it's like exposure therapy. It is.

You don't want it. You don't want it. You want to run away from it as fast as possible. As fast as possible. But we need it. You know, I'm pretty claustrophobic and have been my whole life. It's something I've worked on my whole life. I will tell you the only thing I have tried

You need to bury yourself on a coffin I've tried it I've tried every single thing you could think of to work with this and the thing that has worked the best over and over is little by little exposing myself to small spaces and so this is what we need to do with our nervous

our nervous systems need this our nervous systems need to come up against friction and know that we're okay and then see that we're safe and then do it again and again and again we need to build a resilience now this is tricky because we live in a virtual world that is more and more becoming frictionless. It's helping us.

We don't need to leave our couch to do anything. But the real world of your relationship requires friction. So now we're living in a world where more and more we're expecting frictionless experiences over here in the virtual world. but what we actually need, and now it doesn't match up with what's happening in the real world. And so what we actually need time and time again is to come up against, it's like cold exposure, right? You get in a cold bath and it sucks the first time and you get out after five seconds. And then the next day you get it in your seven seconds and the next day you get it in your 10 seconds. And before you know it, after a month or two or three minutes, that's a big deal.

But there's no way you could have sat in three minutes at the beginning. So what does that actually look like? Oftentimes it looks like dealing with friction outside of tension that's happening with you and your partner. So maybe your partner has something, you know, they have an issue at work. And you're talking to them about that, right? So you're like, okay, that sounds like it's really hard. Or with small little things that you would normally brush under the rug, right? So like maybe we're talking the thermostat, right?

That's something that you like it cold and your partner likes it a little bit warmer. And so you're okay with it being cold or, you know, you'll just like deal with it. Okay. Well, what if you actually said, hey, do you mind if we turn it up a little bit and then dealt with whatever tension you feel? I mean, this is why boundaries are so hard to set. It's not the boundary itself that's hard. It's the repercussions in the aftermath after.

But if we, and I will speak to about that. The reaction to a boundary. Yes. That's the hardest part. This doesn't work for me. This, you know, I'm not giving it to this or I'm going to stay here. And the reaction to someone not liking the boundary. Oh, it's the hardest part.

That's the thing that we need to work. That's the nervous system resilience. And be in it when someone's reacting, right? It's so hard. Like you mentioned that, it's a good analogy. It's like we almost need to have a nervous system thermometer where we are able to have extreme heats and extreme colds and still feel comfortable. Like we need to be able to expand our range of emotional tension.

Yes. So that we can, maybe we don't like it, but we can handle it for periods of time. And I wouldn't even say it's comfortable. I actually don't know if it ever got. But you know that it's not going to. to throw you. It's not going to kill you. Yeah. And you trust, you trust that you have a, you have this, I think building capacity, nervous system capacity is one of the most important skills we can build. Every neuroscientist I've interviewed, almost all of them when I say, what's the number

one skill that every human being should have? These are neuroscientists and brain surgeons that I interview that I ask this question to. They say the number one skill is emotional regulation. emotional regulation and you mentioned before this is something that most of us probably 99% of us are never taught in schools or by our parents unless you have a parent that has been trained on how to do this themselves we're usually reacting or responding or mimicking someone who has never been trained in this and so it's no one to blame it's not like we have to blame someone in our lives but it is a responsibility if we want to live a better life to learn the tool of emotional regulation. And like you said, it's exposing ourselves to these uncomfortable feelings in our nervous

system where we feel hot or cold. Again, we may not like it, but we've got to learn to navigate it and learn to sit with it and be firm in our boundaries when we're experiencing it. And there is no way around it. No way. You cannot escape this if you want to have a meaningful, intimate relationship. There is no way around this. Then what would you say then? are the three signs that someone doesn't have good boundaries in a relationship? Well, first, let's define boundary, right? Because I think it's something we misunderstand. We often think that a boundary has to do with somebody else changing, doing something

different. Like, I don't like the way you talk to me. So stop talking to me like that. That's my boundary. But a boundary isn't that. A boundary is a way to take care of yourself. And boundaries and threats can sort of get interchanged and they're not the same. But a threat is like if you talk, you know, if you keep talking like that, I'm going to leave right now.

Like that's like a threat. There's like a, but if you say, hey, listen, I can't actually hear you and show up if you keep talking to me like that. So I'm going to leave. And then let's come back in 20 minutes when we both calm down and I'm happy to continue the conversation. That's a boundary. A boundary is taking care of yourself. It's taking care of yourself. And it's not saying that in a negative way.

Like you said, it's very calm versus when you stop being like a little brat. Yeah, yeah. I'm going to come back. Yeah, it's not like it's how you present it also probably. I mean, it doesn't mean you can still be firm. You don't have to be like loving and kumbaya, but it's like you don't want to degrade someone as well with your boundary.

It's the difference between a kind of ultimatum. Uh-huh. Like an ultimatum is a threat, essentially. An ultimatum is something you're probably not going to act on, but you're going to say it like, you know, If you talk to me like that again, if you talk to me like that again, I'm leaving. Like this relationship is over. And yet two days later, you're back and you have great makeup sex and you're fine, quote unquote, fine.

And like, that's a threat. That's an ultimate. But actually speaking from a place of understanding what your needs are, which is also tricky because most of us have not ever really had our needs met by a caregiver or parent, like really deeply, unless we were super fortunate. then a lot of us are working with, what do I need? I've never even really had that. I don't even know what I did. I don't know.

Yeah, yeah. And so, so starting to understand where your limit is is going to be a practice. That's a, it's a practice, right? So you said the top three things for. What are the three biggest signs that you are, you don't have good boundaries in a relationship? You don't have good boundaries. well one is you you need the other person to change like you have that expectation that that in order for me to feel better you have to change you have to do something different

okay that's number one that's a I mean that's a by the way I just want to keep saying it's easier so than done yeah so you expect somebody to change and and in their changing you feel better that's the that's the misrepresented form of boundaries but I've done that I've changed over and over again and the other person still never feels better. Yeah. There's always more for them to change. Oh, 100%. It's never enough.

Yeah. Never enough. Never. It's so funny, before you go to the second sign, that was when I got in a committed relationship with Martha, we were dating for months and all these things, but once we agreed to be exclusively committed to each other, I said that I have only one rule, essentially. I was like, there's nothing you can do. that will upset me. Nothing.

I'm sure maybe I'd get frustrated, but there's really nothing that's going to make me be like, I can't believe you do this. Maybe there's things I didn't like or whatever, but nothing to really like upset me unless you do one thing and that you don't accept me. If you try to change me for something that you don't like or whatever and you need me to change to make you feel better,

this relationship will not work. I said there's only one thing. You have to accept me for who I am, where I'm at. And in that acceptance, you also have to know that I'm committed to my own personal healing journey for life. I'm committed to growth. I'm committed to feedback, receiving feedback. I'm committed to, you know, investing in myself in the different parts of me to continue

to grow as a human being, spiritually, physically, mentally, psychologically. I don't know many men who are willing to do that for life or commit to it, who've been showing up consistently. And I'm also not going to be perfect. I'm also extremely flawed. I'm also, make a lot of mistakes. I also, all these things that I, you know, know that I'm have to improve on, right? I'm not the perfect person.

I'm flawed. You know, I have bad thoughts. I have bad moods. So it's not, you're not going to get a perfect human being from this. But you can never try to change me. And the reason why is because I'm never going to try to change you. I'm always going to accept you based on, based on my experience of you, if this is who you say, you are. And I continue to see your actions match your words throughout the next six months,

year and so on. You know, as long as you don't swindle me in the next few months, if this is essentially who you are, your main personality, I'm choosing to accept this personality. I know it's going to evolve. I know when you're pregnant, it'll be different. I know in this, it'll be different. I know there's going to be differences. But as long as you accept me for where I'm at, I'm going to accept you. And the only time, that we've really had disagreements is when I feel she hasn't accepted me. And I bring it back to her. She hasn't done it in probably a year and a half. But in the first couple of years, I'd be like, I told you, have I ever been upset for you or anything? She said, no. The only time

I'm going to get frustrated is if you don't accept me for something. And it doesn't mean we can't talk about it. We can talk about anything. Consciously talk about it, address it, go to therapy about it. Do workshop. I don't care. We'll do all of it. But you can't try to change me. I'm going to evolve and grow on my own and you either need to accept me as the man that you've chosen to be with or don't be with me because I'm not trying to change you and she stopped doing that after like the first year and a half like she it's not like she was doing it but the only time that I would react was when I was like you're trying to change me like that's the one the bear came out a little bit not like I was screaming or anything but it was more like defensive mode totally I was like don't try

to change me you know it's not that doesn't feel good to me oh I don't care she's done movies with like sex scenes and kissing guys like zero frustration, jealousy, upset, zero. I have zero jealousy. And she used to like kiss guys in movies. She doesn't have to, but she has. And she's got guys all, you know, she's a movie star. Zero jealousy. I've not once tried to check her phone.

I'm not once, but like who's this guy? I've zero. And I said, you're getting a man who's committed to not giving you any stress and giving you as much as I can give. don't try to change me. And you can ask her, you know, we're four and a half years in. Again, I'm not 20 years deep yet, but you can ask her, has Lewis ever gotten upset at you for anything ever, except for when you try to change him?

She'll say no. This is so fascinating because there's a frame here. I know we were talking about boundaries. And I also know we haven't finished this. So I'm like, okay. Give it to me. Okay. Okay.

Okay. So Dr. Alexander Solomon is fantastic. and she has this frame that she talks about around the change and accept partner. Give it to me. I think this is so good. Is this the 70% rule? No, that's the one that we talked about the 70.

That's the unrepairable. Okay. The change and acceptance. What is this? Okay. Set this up for me. Okay. So oftentimes, not every time in relationship,

but oftentimes in relationships, there is going to be, they're going to be, each of you is going to hold one side of the pole. One of you might hold, and I don't know that this is you too. Yeah, yeah. It's going to hold the poll

of change. I want to be in therapy. I want to go to the workshops. Let's read the books. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Also me. Also me. And the other partner is what she calls the acceptance partner. And this is the partner who's like, but can't we just relax? Yes. Can't we just like, isn't it all good the way we are now? Like don't like, can't it just like can't things be okay the way they are? They're fighting for like presence and peace and just well, one's fighting for growth the others fighting for like the calm piece. Let's just relax. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's all good. Yeah. Well, it's not face our traumas anymore. Like, come on. Let's just chill. Let's just chill. Let's just have fun. Yeah, totally. Now, those two things polarize one another, right? When one partner is like,

let's go to therapy and the other's like, we don't need therapy. Like when those two pulls stretch, that's going to be really tough. And it happens all the time. In fact, I think it was one of the most viral videos is this video and the most scathing comments I have ever gotten are on this video because people want to just rail the acceptance partner like they're lazy they never you know like they just want to go after them like it's I'm the one who's doing all the work I'm if it wasn't for me we wouldn't move an inch nothing would get done in our relationship and there's part that's true about that but what needs to happen is that it's sort it's actually similar to what we were talking about earlier around the co-regulation and auto-regulation. And if you're better at co-regulating,

you need to learn auto-regulating is they both come towards the other. They both, the acceptance, if the acceptance partner starts to now engage the change partner in conversations that are growth-oriented, asking, like, what was challenging for you today? I'd love for you to talk about your innermost world, right? To a change partner, that's like, swoon the best, right? And if the change partner says, let's get therapy this week. Why don't we just go do something fun? Let's say, then the exceptions partner's like, I want to go to therapy.

Yeah, they can start to depolarize. Does depolarize a word? I don't know. Anyway, one another. Just kind of relax one another, right? Exactly. But both sides need to, and it's not exactly what you're talking about, but it made me think of it because of the change, change, except.

But if both sides can actually come to one another and say this, neither is right. And I will tell you right now, especially in the self-development space, the change partners think they're right. I am a change partner. I think I'm right. I have to tell you. I still think I'm right. But in my, I will say, there was one moment that I could process endlessly.

This is my favorite game. Let's go to therapy process. It's supposed to just move on. Yeah. Yeah. And my wife is very different. And so one day she comes up to me and she was like, I have to tell you. I have hit my limit.

Like, I have hit capacity. I can't process anymore. I can't process anymore. And she had said that before, and I heard it more from her wounding. For whatever reason, I heard this actually from the relationship's wisdom speaking. I like to think about the relationship having three poles, you, your partner, and the relationship entity itself. And that this comes from a friend and colleague, Annie Lala, who's fantastic. She's a love coach.

But I love thinking about this relationship entity that has wisdom for you that's outside of either. person and your individual personal preferences. So she says this. And in my head immediately, I'm like, I think this is the relationship talking. Like I think she actually has, she's on to something here. Maybe our relationship does need more play and fun and rely. And so in that moment, I don't know what happened to me, but like the higher version of myself just said, yeah, okay, let's cancel therapy for three months and see what happened. three months. And you know what I started to learn was like how to let things roll off my back more easily where I where normally it might be hard. It was like I learned all these things

about what it would mean if we actually didn't process. We weren't sweeping things under the rug. Like we would bring little things up. But the big things just didn't seem to like nothing seemed to matter as much. Yeah. And the interesting thing is like I think when you, when things are good like in the beginning of the relationship, I was, I said I want to do therapy. more out of a fear because I was like, I don't want to go two years into this relationship. Repeat for the sixth time now. Yeah. A relationship going two years deep.

The first year is great. The second year starts to have this struggle. We're trying to get back to how it was in the beginning. I see, I was the only one that would suggest therapy. I don't know any woman that's met a man that said like, I want to go to therapy. So I was always the one in the women. I was, whatever reason, the women I chose never wanted to go to therapy. And I was like, what is, what am I attracting?

You know, and it's like, I'll tell the one. them, every woman would beg for their guy to go to therapy. They're like, you don't want to. And side note. Anyways. And so it was more out of a fear. I was like, I'm only getting this relationship if we start in therapy. And I always wanted to do it, but it was more like, I want to know quickly, like, if we're

going to work or not. Like, I want to know in the first six months. And I don't want to wait two years. And I was just kind of at that phase of my life. I was like, unless you're willing to do this, you'd even heard just committing to it, I was like, I could have just let it go because I'm like, oh, at least I know you're into growth, right? We did it for about a year and a half anyways.

And it really helped us get alignment and agreements and values in a place. And that's where we're able to actually fast forward disagreements. We learned about each other in therapy and the wounds that each one had. And so when there were disagreements, we were able to process them with a middle person, right? With someone that could guide us in our own personal healing journeys and then together with agreements. So it created this sense of shared individual safety and then relationship safety that we were willing to invest in agreements early on.

And when there were breakdowns, which there were, how do we process and navigate this conflict where we feel both safe and the relationship feels safe? So it took about a year and a half of like doing that consistently where I felt great. And then maybe we would go once every like, whatever, three or six months and it still felt great. And in the last year, it's funny you say this

because she said something yesterday or two days ago to me. She was like, I feel like we should do a session together. And I actually said, no, I don't think we need a session. I was like, we haven't done a session together in like a year probably, maybe a year and a half. And I was like, I don't think we need a session. I think we're exactly where we need to be. And I have processed so much on my own. And I'm like, I'm willing to sit with you at any moment and talk about anything.

And we can go over anything and we can talk about it. We have the tools to do this as well. If we are in a breakdown together, then I think we should. But life's been amazing. We haven't had the greatest year. And I don't want you to fall back into fear of needing therapy to feel good. We can feel safe having whatever conversation we need. And so if you want to schedule time for us to talk and do something together, I'm here whenever

you want. She was like, okay. And I go, and if you want to do something solo on your own, great, go do it. But I'm like, I don't feel like I know. need more. You know, it's like, I need just more play. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it's interesting that your wife said the same thing. And it's like, but I was like, I'm here to talk at any moment about any fear or concern you have. Because again, she's a few weeks away from having birth. And so I know there's a lot of emotions coming up. And I'm like, I'm here any moment to talk.

I'm here to create a safe space. I'm here to engage in any fear conversation you want to have because I know you're going to have concerns about the future. I understand. I can't fully understand, but I can appreciate what you're experiencing, and I'm here for you. And let's talk. Right now, later, tomorrow, I'm here. As much as you want, I'm here. But I don't want to go schedule and go somewhere to do that. Let's just do it. And I think it's knowing how to create that space as well, for me, which has been helpful, because that's also creating a boundary for yourself of like, I'm doing an interview with you today. This is therapy. You know what I mean? It's like, I'm doing four of these a week in these conversations. It can be emotionally draining

if you're processing constantly and imagining these things. Absolutely. If you're doing it all the time. Absolutely. It's exhausting. It's exhausting. And as a change partner and as a change partner myself, it's also a way to control your environment.

This is the kind of shadow side. There's, of course, the benefit of being the change partner. But part of the shadow side of it is if I continue to need change in this relationship, what I'm not actually addressing is what might not be. working if I don't control the situation. There's a phase in relationship that I think is important to note that it's called disillusionment and every relationship will go through it. What is disillusionment in relationship? It's this time and I think, and I say this now because oftentimes the change partner wants to keep changing, wants to keep changing because they don't actually, because accepting

where they are is it can actually be too painful. For some people, it's, it's, it's, you've realize like the relationship, like you're saying, it doesn't need as much work as you might think it does. For other people, though, it's actually sitting with, wait a second, this is not what I signed up for. And if I keep committing to change and the work, if I keep going into the work, I don't actually have to sit with, this isn't it. Or I don't have to sit with accepting exactly where we are. Disillusionment is the process of moving from hope that things will be different to acceptance that things are the way they are. And it may not change.

That's exactly right. And do I want to be in this relationship? Is this the envision? As is. Do I want to, is this the Disney, Fairyland romantic story that I envisioned living myself in? Well, let's hope that it's not because those don't exist. Exactly. Those don't exist.

But if there is a way that you're holding on to hope that your partner is going to show up differently, do something differently, and you've done, you've asked the questions, you've gone to therapy, and they're not doing it. And you have to accept. There is a, first you grieve. Oh, yeah, you're like loss. That this is, this is not where I thought we'd be. This is not the relationship.

I thought, oh, it is. It is so tough. And can't I stay in this relationship? Now that I've invested years of my life and if I get out of this, we don't have to redate someone and then what if that doesn't work out? The whole thing. The process of moving from hope to disillusionment, which is there is, the like i actually have to release hope in order in order to see what's truly here

grieve that and then understand if i am okay staying in this relationship as it is today if nothing changed or reckon with the fact that this isn't the thing that i signed up for and then do whatever work you need to do about that which is often boundary setting and taking care of yourself and if you can if you take care of yourself over you'll you'll it brings me back to something you were talking about where you were saying you did this three-month period with this girlfriend, just continuing to show up the way that was in your work.

You're focused on your work over and over again. As long as that's what you're doing, as long as you're sort of minding your own business and your work, and you're setting boundaries and you're doing it more lovingly and you're doing, you're being open, and you're bringing the things that are yours to bring to the table, and you're using eye language, and you're taking responsibility,

and you're doing all, you're doing your part. Yes. and nothing changes, then you're out of the power struggle because the power struggle is the thing that keeps you in the hope that something will be different. And then you have a choice to make. That's exactly right. Do I accept this life or do I move on? Exactly.

Can I accept the relationship and the person I've chosen to be with if nothing's going to change? Maybe there's a little bit in the future, but I can only hope, but there's not a guarantee. But every relationship goes through disillusionment at one point or another. Maybe it happens year one, maybe it happens year 10, maybe it. And it's confusing because it feels like the end because it is. It is the end of a chapter. My supervisor, Esther Perel, talks about this, how she's been in multiple marriages, but all to the same person. I think that's a beautiful thought. And I have friends who that's the same for them as well. Like they have been in relationship long enough that they have gone through multiple iterations of the relationship, but they have had to let the previous version of their relationship, die. I would say I'm in that phase right now in terms of like, you know, before Martha, you know, before we were married, it was a version of a relationship. It was like, we're traveling everywhere and doing these things.

And the thing, you know, after married, she got pregnant very quickly. So we're still traveling and doing certain things, but it's preparing for a different future with children in mind. We have twins on the way. So it's preparing for, you know, a eight, well, really an eight month process of pregnancy, but then probably six to a year-long process of a, not, you know, to a full recovery, I guess, of like body shifting and changing for two years, essentially,

from, you know, growing human life to then recovering from that and then your whole identity shifts from the moment you get pregnant to the moment you have kids that do different identity to getting back into day-to-day life as a mom and as a parent, like in a relationship. Your identity is shifting constantly, right?

And you have to grieve a path, absolutely even if you're okay with it not being there anymore and you're excited about the future you still have to let go of it and grieve it and choose to accept what you have and be okay with it maybe you're not okay with it but you have to choose if you want to make the most out of your life otherwise you're going to struggle absolutely and then you stay in that for as long for as long as you grip you will stay in that contraction and the I mean I just hear about this all the time with people. They won't change. What do I do? They don't, they keep doing this. What do I do? They, they, they, they, they. And that makes sense because they're on the other side of your pain. But as long as we're looking over there, and this is my work too,

this is for so many of us, as long as we're putting our hands in the honeypot over there, we're not actually able to see what's needed to be done over here in our world. And this is as much as I hate to say it, it's the only thing we can control. We have no control over another human being. And the more that we try to control somebody, we learn very quickly, Nobody likes to be controlled. No. Unless for like a weak person that just says control me. Or you're doing BDSM in the bedroom in that case it's agreed upon anyway.

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But no one likes to be forced to change from someone else, you know? And that's why I was like, the only time when I get angry, upset, or frustrated is if you try to change me. You know, it's like, because that was what most of my life was in relationships, not being accepted for who I was. And for the person who, and for the person who wants their partner to change, it's the part of them that so, I've just learned this over and over again, the part of them that so desperately wants to be met and seen and understood that you changing could allow that

feeling for them. That if you were just a little more, just like a dash more of this and a dash less of this, then it would be perfect. I'd feel gish. I would feel X. Yeah. I would feel happy, settled, safe, all of those things. But it's an illusion. It's an illusion. It's an illusion. You have to create peace and safety within you no matter what someone else is doing outside of you. You have to. Again, hard thing to do. It was probably the hardest thing for me in my 20s

and my early 30s and mid-30s actually until I really just like, I was like, I had to reflect on all my relationships. I was like, man, I keep attracting based on a psychological wound. It's not about any person I've been with. It's about me and my responsibility and choosing and then lacking the courage

to really speak my boundaries and stick to boundaries or choosing the courage to say, gosh, you're a fascinating person. I want the best for you, but we can't be together and being okay with the reaction of that because I was never okay

when someone was like, I can't believe you don't want to be with you. Like, I couldn't deal. It was like, I never wanted to upset anyone. Or learn that you will survive even if you don't feel okay. Exactly. Yeah.

That there's going to be tension. Of course. No matter what that. I lack that. I lack that courage and the ability to emotionally regulate when someone was like freaking out. It's so hard to do when we haven't learned that that's the thing we need to practice. It was everything.

I'm just going to say it again. There is no getting around it. It is the practice is facing that tension. So I'm curious then, maybe this is too personal, but you, how many long-term male relationships were you in? Oh, boy. Like more than six months. What would you say like a handful, five, ten, five to seven?

Five to seven, something like that. Okay, since you were like 18, not like 13 year old like, yeah, yeah, I mean, I had young to seven, yeah, five to seven, yeah. We're over six months, maybe a couple of years or something. Yeah, yeah, something like that. You're engaged once. Yep. Do you feel like you've healed from those relationships with men?

I don't know. My last relationship, which wasn't the engagement, there was, I entered into that on really probably the least confident I had ever been because I was just leaving. It was, you know, a year or so after the engagement. And you were, you were feeling weaker. I was kind of wounded weaker. I didn't and I. Insecure a little bit.

Yeah, like I had, I just had lost a lot of my confidence coming out of that. It's, yeah, it's normal. I mean, anyone would. It was like I had, I started to question my own reality and how I, you know, so anyhow, I was, and I, and you got into another relationship. Yeah. When you were at a lower point. Yes. And I chose someone who was very strong-willed.

And I, I bent to them over and over and over again. And the truth that's not, like, I'm not proud to admit this. my wife has been the first person and it might be because she's a woman that I've been able to stand up in a way that I had never been able to. I mean, I was a pleaser through and through. I appeased. I was so scared of causing tension and conflict. I was very terrified of someone getting mad at me. And my wife is the first person who I've really been able to, I mean, we've done the deepest work I've ever done relationally in this relationship. And part, I have to. I have to. wonder if part of that is because she's a woman, and so I feel less threat. And I don't know the answer to that. I don't actually know the answer to that. And I don't know if I'll, hopefully I'll not find out because I'm this, she's my, you know, I hope we're together forever. But I, I, I don't feel anger towards men. Like I don't, I, I'm some of my male patients are my favorite patient. So it's not like I have a, I just, I, you're also not an intimate relationship with them

where that wound or that trigger is coming out there. You're totally right. You're totally right. You're distanced and you're able to give advice. Yeah. It's a safe environment. But I don't know that I would be able to work or maybe because I'm in this relationship that I will have had enough practice that if I ever needed, I could really face the, you know, whatever tension I might need to with a male. But I don't have that practice right now because I'm practicing with a woman. Yeah. And so. Yeah, and I haven't thought actually a lot about that. So I don't have a great answer. Where do you think your life would be in the future if you allowed yourself to reflect

and see if you still needed healing and allowed yourself to heal from all the male relationship energy that you've experienced or the lack of healthy relationship with men that you've experienced? Where do you think your relationship with yourself would be in the future if you're able to do that? your relationship with your wife would be and your relationship with the world would be. It's hard for me to know how much of my relationship dynamic with Emmy is because she's a woman and because she sort of represents both to me.

Like she has a lot of masculinity in her and so I can project maleness onto her. But I guess irrelevant of her if you were able to, you know, maybe maybe don't need healing. from it. But if it comes to you in the future that you do and you're able to dive in deeper and integrate the healing with the past relationships, maybe you'll never be able to fully do that because you're not going to get in a relationship with a man again. But if you're able to do it in a way that allowed you to fully heal from those previous relationships, where do you think you would be personally for the future, the relevant of your, you know, partner? I mean, it's tricky to say irrelevant for my partner because I think the truth is,

I am healing those parts. Like I think that's the, I think that's kind of what we were talking about before, which is the parts of me that I brought that have been unhealed, irrespective of gender, are showing up here, right? My trust, perfect examples. I did not have the same trust issues before my fiancé, for my ex-fiancee.

I was a pretty, maybe even naively trusting person before that. You trusted people. I, I, I, that was my blanket. You say it, I believe it. That was sort of blanket. And I think I grew out of being naive into more discernment from that. So that's one benefit that came out of it. But I have, I have watched my nervous system react to things with Emmy that they would have never reacted to.

Like what? Like, one that has honestly really surprised me at the beginning of our relationship was she's way more extroverted. I can play an extrovert on TV, but I'm, I do well. You like your space. Yeah, yeah. And she wants to stay at the party until the very end. I'm like, 10 o'clock feels good.

That's your Saturday night. Let's go. You know, and at the beginning, it was really, really hard for me when she would stay at a party later and I would go home. I would room and I would be like is she is something going to happen and it was it was the fear that she was going to come home and tell me something that was going to knock me because that's what like someone hit on me or someone did this no like she like she made out with somebody and was so sorry about it and she would never do it again but she just did and like something

like that that I think because my ex-fiance like that that knocked me. me, I mean, I was, I couldn't work after, like, it really rocked me in a way that nothing had rocked me before that, relationally. And I, I think I was so scared of being rocked like that again, like that something could just so quickly like that come out of the blue and hit me and take me down, that it was like my fear of. And it took me, it took me, honestly, it took over and over again her coming home later and me and her not, not saying anything about doing any breaking a boundary or breaking the agreement do you guys have an open relationship no no no no but you're just like if she cheated on me if she yeah it was like it would yeah like something if she broke a boundary

or or really what it was is if she the the question that i have had since that relationship is when i get triggered i say i ask myself what am i missing so i get vigilant i get sort of like super hypervigilant so i'm i'm sort of like scanning my environment for what am i missing so if i feel off about something, then I start to be like, okay, what am I missing? Now, what I have learned that is, and I learned this again from a friend of mine, Annie Lala, who I mentioned earlier. I know Annie. Yeah, yeah. She's fantastic and she talks about this. And I think it's really important, which is the difference between signal and story. And the signal is whatever feels off in my nervous system. And I'm like, something's not quite right. This doesn't feel

congruent. Something's not quite right here. Where I get myself into trouble, where we all get ourselves into trouble, if you're anything like me, is when you believe the story about what that signal is telling you. You know, you're making it up. This happened. This is happening. Totally. So, so if I make up a story that the reason I'm getting this signal is because Emmy's out there making out with someone, right? Like that. You're making up a story. Then I'm making up a story. And, and then I get myself all in a tizzy. And, but here's what might be happening. She might be having fun with someone and maybe she, she's like, has energy with somebody. And I can feel that. Like, Maybe that's something.

Or maybe it's just that she's out late and she's having fun and I feel FOMO. It doesn't actually matter what it is. So I say now, trust the signal, not the story. And when you bring the signal to your partner, hey, I feel crazy even saying this and I feel kind of embarrassed. Like this is how I would bring things. I feel embarrassed saying this. By the way, this is not how I brought things to her at the beginning. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You got to her like, were you on having fun? Yeah. Yeah. So I would be like, I'm embarrassed to say this. but can you just tell me if there was anything up with you and this person? I feel like kind of weird about it. And she would be like, no, but I can see what you mean. Like we have, you know, we're really friendly with each other.

Yeah, we have fun. We have fun. We hug each other. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I can be like, okay, I knew I was feeling something. And because she's not telling, she's not telling me I'm completely wrong, I can act. That part of me actually softens and I can find the truth in where my signal was, but that the story was total BS.

Yeah. And that's been really important. So I don't have a great answer for where would I be? I think the truth is I am, I have been, I put myself in therapy when I was in junior high. Like I have been on the healing path my whole life and I imagine will be. It's a journey forever. It's a journey forever. Even if I, you know, even if I feel more peaceful and more whole, I'm going to continue to have to heal for the rest of my life.

It doesn't mean like I've got it all figured out. Yeah. I just feel safe within myself at this season of life. And I want to continue that healing journey. And I think that's an important part for us. Again, we go back to the emotional regulation training. It is a constant training. And I'm certain that when my two daughters come out, there's going to have to be a whole new

things that come out of me that I'm like, I need to learn how to regulate in a different way. Like I might think I have like something figured out in the last couple of years where I feel good right now. Try being exhausted. They're both crying at the same time. You just got home from a long day of work. 100%. And I know that I lack patience when I don't sleep. I just lack patience. I'm an entrepreneur.

You know, it's like, I want it now. Let's go. Yeah. So I know like my weaknesses and I know there's probably other weaknesses I don't know that'll come out. And it's going to be a constant journey of healing and learning tools and learning how to use those tools to regulate my nervous system and a new season of life with a new structure. And I'm grateful for me personally, I'm grateful that I went on this journey, I guess, 12 years ago to be able to have some baseline now before having kids. Because if I would have kids 20 years ago, I would have been a mess. There's just, I don't, I didn't have the tools. I'd have been a mess.

Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? And so it's, it's a journey. Well, this is part of, you know, part of the work that I do is MDMA assisted couples therapy research. And I do it with Columbia University in MAPS and Rick Doblin and, and a few other people in clinics. And part of what we're doing and what MDMA does and why I think it's such an interesting compound to research is because it helps you regulate. And so for people who really struggle regulating, who have had trauma and so their nervous system is consistently in fight, flight, freeze, fawn, right? MDMA can give you an imprint of what it's like to actually feel regulated with a partner.

I think this is what, to me, MDMA is sort of like the cutting edge way the couples therapy field is going. It's why I'm so involved in the research is because what it's, when our amygdala is so fired up. And for many of us who come from trauma, this is our base state is just triggered and disregulated. Like that's a lot of people walking around and something very, very little will set them off. MDMA gives this imprint because it's kind of dumping, you know, on a very basic level of serotonin and oxytocin and dopamine, and it's dumping these chemicals that allow you to feel good and calm so you can be in a tense conversation with a partner and not feel that same tension that you feel, that same dysregulation you feel all the time. So it gives you an imprint of what it's actually like to be regulated in a difficult conversation. you can't be on MDMA forever so you're going to have to learn the tools but for some of us we've never even had the chance to understand what it's like and so anyhow I wanted to mention

that because I think it's a that's interesting so kind of the wave of the future in couples work I'm curious you triggered something to me that I remember from my past where I used to I don't know if I was extremely jealous or just like average male jealousy when I was in previous like you know teenager 20s and relationships where I'd feel like oh my girlfriend's going out and like she's at a club or she's like with some older guys at some like meetup or whatever it might be and having that jealousy or insecurity or lack of like oh is she not telling me something that's something that I had for a long time and I don't know if I had it more or less than other guys but just I would say normal jealousy right it's like normal jealousy of of an

immature weak person I guess that doesn't have which by the way a lot of people won't say they're jealous they just think they're angry Continue. Yeah, I mean, I didn't, I didn't, I think back then I wouldn't say I was jealous, but I was just like, but angry or annoyed or frustrated or defensive. Whatever was. But I can admit my weakness of being jealous for most of my life. And then something triggered in me when I was in my, how old was I, probably 34 maybe

was, maybe that's 35. I must have been 33, 34. It's almost like one day it just switched off at me. I don't know how. explain it where I was jealous and that I wasn't and I was in a relationship and part of me I think part of me knew the relationship I was in wasn't going to work and I'd been trying for a couple years we were trying to make it work and going back and forth and on and off and this whole thing and it was almost like I knew I wasn't jealous anymore in this relationship I didn't have

jealousy and for whatever reason like maybe it's because I knew the relationship was going to work out but i was trying and i was trying to make it work but i didn't want to fail but i also knew in my mind it wasn't going to work so i stopped like caring about if there was a guy hanging out or or something flirting with her i was just like i'm okay i'm not jealous anymore then the next relationship i was in i was with someone who had a lot of attention from men let's just say that around the world lots celebrities you know billion are like lots of men just like this person and I still had zero jealousy and she didn't like it.

She didn't like that I never was jealous. And I haven't had jealousy since then, right? It's probably been, I don't know, eight years or something. And again, I'm with an amazing woman who's like admired by lots of men now and who's done like, you know, kissing scenes or whatever and I don't get jealous. Is there something wrong with me

by not having jealousy anymore? And what's your thoughts on it when people have jealousy? in a relationship. What is that signaling to the other person when they are jealous of who they are or what they're doing? So I think this can be addressed twofold.

It can be addressed on the personal level, whatever self-love, self-war. That's kind of how we think about jealousy. It's a wound in me that makes me react towards you. Yeah. But I don't think that's the full story. what I often actually the more that I see this the more that I'm tracking this and working with couples and the more that I understand jealousy or the lack of jealousy as part your work

but part your partner's energy I believe that too and if your partner actually has clean clean energetic boundaries that's how I might say it then there's nothing in you that's pointing to anything leaky like you're not you're not you're you're not getting hooked by a leak. Yes. And so I think we give a lot of credit to people who aren't jealous as they're so confident. I think we give less credit to the partner of the person who's not jealous that they're actually doing a good job.

The other partner I had did not do a good job with that. Oh, really? Oh, they were like... But you said you didn't really want to be in that relationship. No, no, no. After that one, the previous one before my marriage, so two relationships ago. That you did want to be in a relationship. with her. Yes. I mean, I was in relationship with her. I wasn't trying to like. And she didn't do a good job of

holding her boundaries. It was like the worst job of like energetic boundaries with men. And you weren't and you weren't. And I still wasn't jealous. Okay. She was also on only fans. And you and you and I didn't have any jealousy. And you knew you wanted to be with her or are you kidding? I wanted to be with her. I was trying to make it work because in the first year it felt really good. The second year it switched into power struggle. Right. And which was the year where you were like I'm not jealous? Both years? The whole time. Yeah. Because then she started. started playing she started playing time she started trying to playing games of like oh this guy reached out to me and i gave him my number go that's weird why would you why not just say no she's like

oh i was just trying to be nice with this and that and it'd be like okay all right whatever like it for whatever reason you saw i think it was more like if this doesn't work out i know i'm going to be okay if you're trying to if you want to be with someone else go be with someone else just do it like we don't have to be together so it was more of like i don't like i'm going to know either way like if you're going to be with someone, I'm going to find out. If you're going to cheat on me, I'm going to find out. If you're texting someone, I'm going to eventually find out. So I'm not worried. I'm not putting my energy on worrying if this is happening. It's got to come out eventually. And it just didn't, it's not that it didn't bother me, but I wasn't being

jealous. What was the bothering then? I wasn't, I mean, we were in alignment on our relationship. We were in conflict a lot. We were in conflict. We didn't have values our vision along. So you had a reaction to it. It just wasn't jealousy. Yeah, I wasn't jealous. I was, like, frustrated, like, we were in conflict, but I wasn't jealousy, yeah. Yeah, I, and with Martha as well, again, she's like a big movie star, famous, and I just never have any jealousy with her. How are her energetic?

She's really graded in. She doesn't allow men into her life. She doesn't, nothing will creep in. She is an energetic force field. Yeah. So she's doing part of the work. A hundred percent. Yeah.

But I still don't have, you know, I was in, when she was like, when we were first dating and she was like, whatever, I went on a date with another guy because we weren't like exclusive or whatever she was like oh i saw a guy last night or this i still didn't have jealousy yeah listen i was like okay like if this does if that's what you want then cool and if that really is your stance yeah that i'm gonna find out eventually if i if i find if i find out i'm gonna be okay it doesn't it's okay it doesn't mean i'm not gonna like it i may not like it you know it's like it's like it may be sad if we didn't work out but i may have a reaction to yeah of course but i was just i just haven't had it for a long time yeah i mean listen i i it feels amazing

It's the, it's, it's very, I don't feel, I don't feel like, I don't feel like it's draining my soul anymore. It was a very hard one for me and it's not hard anymore in this. Yeah, I mean, I can, I, it shows up sometimes, but not nearly like it used to. And it, you're right. Like, it's a very draining. Time-consuming. Yes. And your nervous system is on a high alert all at the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it is. It's hypervigilance.

It's like a-it-is. Yeah. Yeah. And that may, listen, I don't think this is a one-size-vis-all answer either. I think that part of it could have been that you had, you started to develop more confidence and part of it is, I truly believe, and this is the part I just feel like we talk less about is the other person and what they're doing. Oh, yeah.

She does great. But in a relationship. And part of it, like, there's a part of me that is hearing, I don't know if this is true. so I can, I'll just check this with you, but it feels like a little bit, like maybe a part of you in that other relationship was like a little bit apathetic to like, you're either going to love me for who I am or not. And like, if you don't, it's like there's like a, I was also a flavor of. Yeah. And I was also trying to like just accept like, okay, like you can do what you want. It's not going to bother me. As long as you're not cheating on me, like if guys are hitting

on you, then this is where it is. You know, guys were hitting on you before. As long as you're not entertaining it, then I don't have an issue. because I can't control if some guy hits on you. Now, you have to create the block. But you said that she wasn't great at creating the blocks. That's, I think, she wasn't. Or more she was more like sick, you know, I mean, yeah, I mean, it still didn't bother me for some reason. Because I think I was just like, if this doesn't work out, I know I'm safe with me.

Yeah. I know I'll be okay. I know I'll be in a good relationship in the future. I know like I have options. I'm not going to be alone forever, like, which is probably what I used to feel like, like I'm going to be alone. And I need to make sure this works. And I can't be alone.

Yeah. And I think that was probably more my fear. And I think as I got into like my early 30s and started the healing journey, it was also after the healing journey began, I was like, I'm going to be okay. If this doesn't work out, I will, maybe it's not, I'm not going to enjoy it. Yeah, but I will be okay in the future. That I think is a, it's a huge piece that if you know in your heart of hearts that no matter what happens, you're going to be okay, it will, you'll be better able to set boundaries

That's what I've been able to do. Yes, yeah. That's what I'm going to do. I'm less like, no, this is my boundary. And if that doesn't work, then we don't need to be together. Like, if we're not, it's not like I'm saying that nonstop, but it's like we need to create agreements on alignment. And if there's something that's really crossing a boundary, I'm going to tell you,

that's a deal breaker for you, then maybe we can come to an agreement somehow, but it's like, I don't know. We just can't do this anymore. But for somebody who doesn't actually believe that they're going to be okay on their own, that their world literally will. end or truly some people have gotten into gotten themselves into situations where they are they are literally in danger if they leave of course or they're on reliance or they're in the children with this person or they're financially responsible all these things yeah why people stay when they know

they should leave yeah of course and and the when you're when you have a hook like any of those oh yeah it's tough it's really hard to set boundaries and to and to to to to to to to speak the things that need to be spoken, even kindly, because your safety is literally on the line. That's true. That's a whole other, that's a whole other episode. It's like navigating that. I know, I know. Where's the best place for us to support you, follow you, connect with you all alone?

You can go to my website, beavoche.com, B-A-V-O-C-E, and I'm at Bayeavoche on Instagram is mostly where I hang out. But on my website, I have a couple of resources. have a free repair PDF that you can get, which has a ton of scripts for all sorts of conflicts. So that's a good one. And I also have another worksheet on the change and effort mismatch. So for people who are in that kind of change and accept dance, if they want some support there, that's also free. And then I'll be launching a group for repair. So. Awesome. Yeah. Caroline on my team, she downloaded the scripts. And she goes, these are amazing.

So it makes you guys download the scripts on the website for sure. And your content is great online. So make sure people follow you on Instagram and everywhere else. Bay, I want to ask two final questions. Before I ask, I want to acknowledge you for a moment for the journey you've been on. It sounds like you've been on a heck of a journey of relationships. And we're still, all of us are on the journey. It's not like you've arrived or I've arrived or something.

We're both in the journey. But I want to acknowledge you for putting your wisdom out there because you have gone through a lot of challenges. in conflict, resolution, and intimacy and relationships. And I acknowledge you forward diving deeper in researching it for your own personal healing journey, but then also sharing that wisdom with the world. And I think it's allowing a lot of people

to find more peace, more tools, more resources, and support so that they don't think they're crazy or they don't think it's all the, you know, they're the only ones dealing with this, that there are a lot of people struggling in relationships and you're providing these tools to simplify, and I'm assuming these are tools you wish you had 20 years ago, five years ago, 10 years ago.

And so I acknowledge you for using your pain for part of your purpose now to serve the younger version of yourself that needed this and hopefully healing that version of you and helping other people heal as well. It's been really cool to watch your stuff and getting to know you now for the second time. We just met recently. This was a question I asked everyone. It's called The Three Truths. So imagine hypothetically you live, you get to live for the rest of,

your life as long as you want but it's the last day on earth for you as many years away as you want it to be and you get to live the exact life you want all the blessings and beautiful journey and creations you get to make and relationships you have but at the end of the last day you have you can only leave behind three truths and everything that you've ever created has to go with you to the next place or we don't have access to your content or your videos or books or anything you ever create is gone what would those three truths three lessons that you've learned in life that you would leave behind. Bending over backwards

in relationship is not love. Contorting and pretzling is not the thing that will get you what you hope, the love that you hope. That's one.

Another is friendship is one of the most important. investments you'll ever make. There's one of my favorite quotes, and I don't know who to attribute it to. I forgot, but it's something along the lines of, the tragedy of getting older is there's less time

to make old friends. And I have friends from when I was one, I have friends from when I was five, I have a group of friends from elementary and junior high and high school, and we still are deeply connected. It's, they bring me back to my myself in a way that is, it's so powerful.

So those, you know, friendships are, and just to say as a caveat, I think we're going to start hearing a lot more about friendship breakups and about how to navigate conflict in friendships. I think it's starting to become. Yeah. Yeah. And it's really just the same thing, but I don't think we, we are prepared for friendship breakups in the way that we're you know we oh man this is the whole other episode because i started doing this the last two years and went on um uh who i went with as many people as i could where i was

like i need to create boundaries in a conscious way and i realize okay this some people have brought stronger together some people's like oh we're just not meant for each other in this season of life and that's okay you know it's like we can move on you don't have to try to hold on to something yeah that once was where we're at right now but this a whole other I know, I know, I know. And I'm with you. I've done this. I've had a similar process and it's been Yeah, it's intense. Intense. Intense. Yes. That's number two. And then that's number two. Okay. And number three is don't let anybody tell you not to go to sleep. Sleep a lot. Sleep a lot. Get your rest. Get your rest because you need it and you're a way better version of yourself when you do.

That's good a lot. What's the, what's the, what's that line that everyone's, you can sleep when you die? Like I think that I need to sleep. Total BS. You need to sleep. I do everything better when I have slept. And it's the way that I have access to my creativity and love and warmth. And it's the way that I access my essence. And I don't have full access to my essence when I am not rested.

That's good, good wisdom. Final question. What's your definition of greatness? Being willing to look in the mirror. at what yours what is yours to own and that in and then admitting that to the people around you who've been hurt by the way you may have shown up even if it was unintentional because it probably was and then being kind and gentle with yourself in that process wow that was Beautiful. Thank you for being there.

Thank you for having me. Appreciate you. Wow. That's a good one. I have a brand new book called Make Money Easy. And if you're looking to create more financial freedom in your life, you want abundance in your life, and you want to stop making money hard in your life, but you want to make it easier. You want to make it flow. You want to feel abundant. Then make sure to go to Make Money Easybook.com right now and get yourself a copy.

be. I really think this is going to help you transform your relationship with money this moment moving forward. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our greatness plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support

and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great. I don't know.