The School of Greatness - How to Build Command, Authority & Credibility w/Evy Poumpouras 1092

Episode Date: April 2, 2021

“Stop doing things that you are only comfortable with.”Today's guest is Evy Poumpouras. As a member of the most prestigious protection force in the world for over 12 years, Evy served on the Secret Service’s Presidential Protective Division for President Barack Obama and First Lady Michelle Obama. She has also protected presidents George W. Bush, William J. Clinton, and George H.W. Bush. When not safeguarding the world’s most high value assets, Evy worked complex criminal investigations, operated undercover, and was an interrogator for the agency’s elite polygraph unit specially trained in the art of lie detection, human behavior, and cognitive influence.Evy’s actions as a first responder during the 9/11 terror attacks on the World Trade Center in New York City bestowed her the United States Secret Service Valor Award.In this episode Lewis and Evy discuss the three questions to ask someone in order to get the truth, the best way to build command, authority and credibility, how to stop worrying about other people’s opinions, and so much more!For more go to: www.lewishowes.com/1092Check out her book: Becoming Bulletproof: Protect Yourself, Read People, Influence Situations, and Live FearlesslyDaymond John on How to Close any Deal and Achieve Any Outcome: https://link.chtbl.com/928-podSara Blakely on Writing Your Billion Dollar Story: https://link.chtbl.com/893-pod

This is episode number 1092 with former U.S. Secret Service Special Agent, Evy Pompouris. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Howard Baker said the most difficult thing in any negotiation almost is making sure that you strip it of the emotion and deal with the facts. An author,

Carol Frolinger said, don't bargain yourself down before you get to the table. My guest today is Evie Pampouris, and I had a blast today with her. As a member of the most prestigious protection force in the world for over 12 years, Evie served on the Secret Service's Presidential Protection Division for President Barack Obama and First Lady Michelle Obama. She also protected Presidents George W. Bush, Bill Clinton, and George H. W. Bush as well. And when not safeguarding the world's most high-value assets, Evy worked complex criminal investigations, operated undercover, and was an interrogator for the agency's elite polygraph unit specially trained in the art of lie detection,

graph unit specially trained in the art of lie detection human behavior and cognitive influence evie's actions as a first responder during the 9-11 terror attacks on the world trade center in new york city bestowed her the united states secret service valor award she's the author of becoming bulletproof protect yourself read people influence situations and live fearlessly and in this episode we discuss the three questions to ask someone in order to get the truth out of them how to communicate effectively even if you're sharing bad news the best way to build command authority and credibility in any situation how to stop worrying about other people's opinions the habit evie contributes her success and happiness to and so much more make sure to share this with someone that you think would be inspired by her story and

her insights. And a quick reminder, if this is your first time here or you've been listening for a while, but you haven't subscribed yet, please click the subscribe button over on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you're listening to this right now, as well as let us know what you enjoyed most about this episode in the ratings and reviews section on Apple Podcasts. Okay, in just a moment, the one and only Evie Pompouris. Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness podcast. Very excited about our guest, Evie Pompouris, in the house, former Secret Service agent.

I'm so excited you're here. Welcome. Thank you. To the show as a recovering liar, cheater, stealer, but a human being that always wanted to be a good as growing up. But for some reason, I found myself in situations of lying, cheating, and stealing my way through a lot of life, school, shoplifting, all these things, lying to my parents, all this stuff. I'm curious, if I would have had the secrets growing up on how to lie better where I didn't get caught, what would I need to have done better? Because I got caught a lot lying to my dad and my mom

all the time. What would I have needed to do better? Or should I just not try to ever lie and just be completely honest and not worry about it? I think some lying to some degree is healthy. Really? Well, if somebody's calling you and you don't want to answer the phone and they're very a taxing person or emotionally, you know, those emotional vampires are just someone that's not unhealthy for you. Voicemail, sorry, I was busy. I think in some situations it's okay. But as far as like lying, it's interesting you say that because we would, to become a special agent, there was a polygraph that you would have to take and these things would come up as far as like, do you steal? Do you cheat? Do you lie? But often

people were worried about telling the truth. And what they do is they wouldn't tell the truth. You know, yes, I stole. Yes, I did this. And they would hold it in. They fail their polygraph or fail that part of the interview. And had they told the truth, they probably would have been fine because it was more of an integrity thing. It's more like tell the truth and not pass the test, but at least you're telling the truth. You'll pass the test if you tell the truth. Here's the thing. It's like the thought process is if you're going to lie about this, a polygraph, you know, then you're going to lie about everything. All right. And so it's a big part of the job is trust because you get so much power, so much authority.

You're around the president of the United States. You're really around, you know, secret environments, so to speak. And so they really need to know that you can just be dropped anywhere and it's okay. So it's really about the integrity of it. How many polygraph tests did you take to study doing this process as an agent? I didn't take a lot, but I had to take them and then pass them myself. Because you have to get in. So I would be polygraphed.

Are you, you know, about my background or, you know, and I can't get into the details I'm kind of filtering now in my head, but basically, you know, are you trustworthy? Are you looking to cause harm? Have I convicted any felonies that I've not shared? Drugs tended to be a big disqualifier for a lot of folks. Drugs. Have you done drugs or have you been? Drug use or drug experimentation. So they would allow. Hey, when you were 16, if you did it for a few months. They allow. They have criteria. I think today it's a lot more lenient.

When I went in, it was extremely strict. But I think what they found is like we can't find people. Everyone's tried something, right? We can't find people. Everybody's failing the exam you know, the exam. And, you know, and there's this understanding of that when people are young, they make mistakes. And it's, you know, should something that you did when you were 16, 17, 18, 19, and now you're 30, preclude you from getting a job somewhere else. So there's has to be a little bit of that

logic in there where, you know, when it was a bit so severe. But I think there is a lot more experimentation today. But as far as your first question about your parents, I think that they just knew you well. And so they knew. I can just feel it. I'm just like, no, I didn't do it. Well, they know you. So they know your tells.

They know your demeanor. They know how you shift when you do lie. And so sometimes with people that we know very well, we can see it. They're probably very intuitive to you. They probably also didn't want to believe your lies because sometimes you'll have people say, well, I was married to someone or I was close to someone and I didn't see it. And sometimes we intuitively see it. We know it's there, but we ignore it. And so we'll listen to somebody's excuses or explanations. And because we're invested in that person and we want to believe in that person, we want to believe the lie. And so sometimes that's what happens when we get caught up in something. And then you look back, you're like, I saw this. I saw that. And all those nickels will start dropping. But when you're invested in someone,

you want to believe in them. You want to believe when they tell you, oh, no, no, no, I was actually doing this. Because it's not to your benefit. It's to your benefit to believe what they tell you. Do we all lie? All human beings? And is it okay to lie? All people lie. The research varies. Some research says some people will lie

10 times within a conversation. 10 times? Like in one 30-minute conversation? Hi, how are you? I'm great. How are you i'm great how are you meanwhile i just you know had a fight with my significant other so that would be a lie then also lying by omission is a big thing people think that that i have to say the lie for it to be a lie but i can tell you a story and leave something out. That changes the context of the

story. So now the story is not accurate. I mislead you. That is a lie. And actually the number one way people lie is by omission because most people don't like to lie. They're not comfortable with it. You know, it's not natural to us. It's work. It's a lot of, it's a lot of work. It's very hard. Because you got to remember what you said too, right? You got to remember it. You have to stick to it because you may have to repeat that lie again later in time. And it really is a credibility killer. It's just not worth doing. And so it's a lot of work to do cognitively. So it is actually easier to leave something out. I don't feel as bad. And then when you ask me, Louis, I say, oh, you know, I forgot to tell you that part. And then you lose credibility. If I lie like that, I may not lose as much. It's when people outright lie. And then,

so you probably did some outright lies. Did you do this? Yes or no? No, I didn't. Or how about this? No, I didn't do it. Yeah, right. No. That's like one of the indicators when people say their body doesn't match what they say, so they'll say no, yes. And so you'll see the body will do this, like the body's in conflict with what they're seeing. It doesn't happen to everybody. It's everybody. Everyone is so unique and so different. And I think what popular culture likes to do is say, everybody will do this.

Everybody will do that. And that's just, it's false. And there's no easy way to read people. It's work. It's studying the person, understanding human behavior, knowing that person, paying attention to their mannerisms. So like when I speak, I use illustrators when I speak. So if I'm telling you a story, I went here last night,

I did this, I saw that. Now you ask me something, you know, Evie, is this your favorite podcast? Which it is. I don't know. Right, but I start, you know, I put my hands down and I change my mannerisms. Now I'm stoic, I'm not moving.

In fact, people who do lie tend to move less, actually. Because I'm working. I'm working. This is work. So I'm not, I'm thinking, I'm focused. So there's all those indicators that do help you kind of filter out what's going on with the other person. So using body language and being more expressive hides the lie if you are lying? If you're usually, not all. Because some people that don't use a lot of

maneuvers, they're always stoic. And so that's just what they are all the time. But if you have someone who is illustrative, who's always talking with their hands, and now you ask them a question that they're uncomfortable with or they want to lie to you about, you'll see less movement in the body. What would be three questions, if you could only ask three questions to a human being to figure out if they're telling a lie or telling the truth, how would you start those three questions? What would they be? Ted.

T-E-D. Tell me, explain, describe. And then I would fill in the rest. Tell me. Tell me what you did last night rather than who did you out with last night or were you with Sam last night? So tell me what you did last night. Explain to me how important this relationship is to you. Describe to me what you want in this business partnership.

Those questions allow people to tell a story. So if you really want to read somebody, you want them to tell you a story. So the more I can get you to tell me a story, I hear you, I'm watching you, I'm getting your mannerisms down, everything. But then you're also telling me what is important to you, what is of value to you. And then when you do that, now I don't have to sit there and guess and figure out, oh, how should I start my business pitch with Louis? You already told me the things you like. And so I can come in and speak to you in an intelligent way rather than trying to guess what to say so

ideally when you start a conversation and this could be for anything it's not just catching a lie this is really just trying to start a conversation ted ted tell me explain describe you start big you get people talking and telling you stuff even though you're like i want to know this specific thing but if i ask this specific thing this person is gonna shut down on me so I can't go straight for that so what you do is you narrow it you get closer you get you go from vague to you know more you know accurate to more accurate to then in the end you get to that direct question because you've worked them to that point so for example if you had a case where somebody was murdered or killed, right,

and you had a suspect, you wouldn't say, did you kill her? You would never say that. In fact, you wouldn't get there to like maybe two hours into the conversation. That's like you get there, it's over time because it's, it's, it's a serious thing. It's an ugly word. And, you know, I might not even say, did you kill her? Did you hurt her? Did you harm her? Did something happen? And I would get you. So I would never ask it that way. You get the person to give you admissions. Like for example, yes, I was there. I was at the house or yes, I did this. You know, you want them to give you admissions. Like, for example, yes, I was there. I was at the house.

Or yes, I did this. You know, you want them to give you a little bit. And then eventually you get more admissions, more admissions. You start to paint a picture. And then you never actually have to ask them, did you kill? They eventually tell you. So you were at the scene. You were there at the same time.

You were holding the knife. They tell you all of it. But you walk them through that process. And so when you watch these TV shows or when you ask somebody a direct question and you want a direct answer and you don't get it, this is why. It's work. It's a lot of work to connect with people, read people. And I think that's why. And I think society makes it seem like do these three tricks and you'll have people eating out of your hand in it. It doesn't work.

It's not true. And this is why people struggle because they're looking for the easy way when it's really about human behavior, the person across from you, like understanding them, being curious. Curiosity is wonderful. So let them tell you stuff, ask questions because you're curious, and then you'll get more information rather than trying to go for like exactly what you want to know. And then the other thing too that helps with conversations is something called adaptability, which a lot of people don't have. Like if I have a conversation with you and I specifically want to know one thing, but you want to tell me a whole other story around it,

people don't have the patience. And so like, no, no, no, no, no. We're talking about something else. Like stick to the topic. And when you do that, you break a rapport. You hurt the conversation. So a part of it is being patient. Let them take you a little bit on a journey,

and then slowly you can bring them back to where you want. But sometimes we come in so rigid. No, no, I have to talk about this. This is the topic. And you're not able to adapt. So adaptability is allowing a person to take you where they want to go, letting somebody sit in the driver's seat for a little bit. So you're telling me when my girlfriend is arguing with me about one thing,

but then doesn't want to address it and takes it around the playground of all these other conversations, I get to listen to all those things to get it back to where I want to go to. Perhaps. As opposed to, baby, let's just focus on the problem right here. Well, it sounds actually like your girlfriend is actually more of an identity-based person. What does that mean? Okay. So there's instructional, there's identity. So if I'm talking to you and I want to tell you, you know, you want to tell me basically, Evie, if you stop talking to this person, your life will be easier,

right? You know, cut this person out of your life, right? And I'm like, no, I want to tell you how I feel. No, this makes me feel this way. This makes me feel that way. But you don't know. And you're just kind of like, all you have to do is cut this person out of your life. Or all you have to do is this one thing, problem solved. You are instructional. Let's just get to the point. What do we got to do to fix it? One, two, three, done. Identity is, I don't want to hear that. I want to take you on the journey with me to tell you how I feel. This person, or when we are in that space, this means this person just wants to tell you how they're feeling. They want to tell you about their identity. What's happening

is about their identity. So they don't. So she doesn't want your solution. She doesn't want you to tell you what to do. She wants you to listen to her. And so it's not even about solving it. And so I think that's another place where we get stuck. We're like, here, here's the solution. And it's like, no, no, I don't want that. And you're like, but you're telling me you have this problem.

If you just do this, you're instructional, their identity. What are you? I'm typically instructional. I'm very like, just tell me what I need to know. I don't need to go through the circle. But when I speak to other people and I realize that their identity or in that moment, they want to tell me this whole story. And I'm just like, dude, all we got to talk about this one little thing problem solved i let them go wow if you have the patience it depends what the topic

is but she's identity based so i think every time you talk with her if you see that she's like not wanting to get to the point and figure out the solution where she just wants to tell you about her feelings how this makes her feel or how this hurts her. Or if it's about her, her identity, then that's what she's doing. It's not about the solution. Whether you were in the Secret Service doing an interview or an interrogation

or in the real world now, I guess that is the real world, but after now, what are the social cues or psychological behaviors, body language, responses that people have before you take the polygraph test to know whether or not they're actually telling the truth? What are those few things that you would see? We talked about the body language. Are there other things that would happen? Social cues or behaviors? It's interesting. Everybody would assume that the polygraph was the lie detector. You just ask the question, come on in, have a seat, Lewis. Let's hook you up.

Did you steal when you were a kid? Did you steal that gum or did you steal that? And then it just tells me everything. And it doesn't really work that way. Like typically the lie detector is the person. So you sit across from a person, you have a conversation. And as we're discussing something, let's say you're applying to the U.S. Secret Service. We'll make you a recruit. Okay. Give it to me. And so we're asking you all these questions about your education, your background, drugs, whatever it is. And let's say we get to, I say to you, Lewis, did you ever steal anything? And so now I look at, are there any shifts?

Are there any changes? Do you change the direction? No. People are usually not that obvious. But you can see something. You can feel it. It's also feeling people. I think that gets dismissed quite a bit, that it's not just see, hear.

It's also you can feel another human being. You can. And it's intuitive. And we should allow that and listen to that more rather than shut that down. But it would be, if I would ask you that, I would hear the way you responded. Did you respond similarly to all the other questions the same way? Is your, you know, let's say if I said, Louis, did you ever, you know,

I asked you all these other historical questions and you're like, no, no, no. And then I say, Louis, did you, have you ever stolen anything? Absolutely not. So now something like that, as small as that, I may mark that. I was like, okay, he said no, no, no for everything else. But here he said, absolutely not.

Interesting. Why is it a bit more emphatic? He cares more about either protecting something or that it actually isn't the truth. Maybe. He doesn't want that to be out of sight. But I will notice that it's different. That you did something different.

Even if you, no. It could be a very subtle thing. Or you might not give me anything. There are some people, and I've had those people, where it's just like. Poker face all the way through. Some people, but they'll, I don't want to say they're professional liars, but some people, you know, would come in, especially if it was a criminal case and they're guarding their, the truth really hard. And you have to try to figure

out what that is. Or some people come in and it's, I swear to God, God knows I would never do such a thing. Those are usually red flags, unless it's a culture or a person who typically does it. If so, they, if they always say, I swear to God, I swear to my mom, then it would be like, look, this is part of this person's natural language. Or maybe in their culture, they refer to God quite a bit. But if it's not, and then you start doing that, then again, that's a red flag. So that's what you're really looking for. Rather than we have some of these cookie cutter things. It's like,

everybody does this. Everybody does that. Now, are these things I'm talking about indicators? They are, but you may do them and I may not. I may do something else. What do you do when you lie? What do I do when I lie? We all lie at something, right? We do. I do. I do. Small or big? My husband's like, did you have a donut this morning?

No, I didn't have a donut. What do you lie about the most? Professional or personal? And what in each category? Maybe if I'm mad. I'm not mad. I have a pretty bad temper, so it's like, oh, no, I'm fine. Because sometimes I'll know I have a temper temper and sometimes i know i'm being irrational and i don't want to open up a

whole conversation so i'll just be like no i'm okay i'll leave it because i'll know it's me i'm trying to think what do i i lie about maybe work if it's a project i don't want to do but usually that's what you have agents and managers for. Because they do it for you. Sure. They shut it down for you. I'm trying to think. I mean, we all lie. But I try to keep it like, usually for me it's like, because I'm like a, you know, I like donuts and I like things, cookies.

I like things. So my husband's like a health fanatic. So he'll be like, how'd you eat today? You know? I was like, oh, it was okay. I was pretty solid, you know. Oh, okay. So he'll know what, how'd you eat today? You know, I was like, oh, it was okay. I was pretty solid, you know. Oh, okay. So he'll know what I'm trying to say.

Is there such a thing as person being radically honest all the time? No, I've never come across that. But I think here's the thing. It's okay to lie because have you ever been very, very, very honest maybe with a person and then felt afterward, you know, you feel a bit exposed and you feel like, you know, I wish I didn't share this much with this person. Afterward, you kind of have that remorse because we feel like it's a protection mechanism. I don't want to tell you everything about me.

I don't want to be an open book. And so I may, and it may not be a lie. So by omission, so in the meeting, if somebody's pitching me a project or I'm talking about something, I don't like it, or I don't like the direction it's going. I may not say, I don't like this. I may say, thank you. You know, let me think about that. Meanwhile, I want to say, no way. I'm not doing it. That's terrible. So that technically would be a lie. I'm like, you know what?

Thank you. And let me think about that. But I know I can't respond the first way. Shuts people down. That's why I feel like we hear people say, say no. You know, being able to say no to people more so because a lot of us have. To protect your time, your space, your energy. And that's wonderful. But don to say no to people more so because a lot of us have to protect your time your space yes energy yeah that's wonderful but don't say no find other ways to say no no is ugly

no is mean no is hurtful so i can say thank you so much i'll let you know um i'm not really sure if i'm able to let me think on that find alternative ways to let people down. Why is that? To preserve the relationship. Because when you say no to someone, even if it's a friend, they might take it personally. It stings. Right? Why are you saying no to me?

Why do you have to say like that? You can say, you can reject people in a thoughtful way, in a professional way. It depends. Do you care about the relationship? And if you do, your no, your hard no can hurt people's feelings. People become sensitive because you're rejecting them. And so I'm going to think of a different way to say no, that's not going to impact you as much. It's really using language thoughtfully. So for example, you brought up lying. I love that. And you said, you know, when I was a kid, I lied. So I would never say to you, Louis, you're a liar. Or Louis, no, Louis, you're lying to me. I would say, Louis, I know you're not being truthful with me. Louis, you're holding something

back from me. Sounds different. So it's the same way with language. We throw our words out and we don't realize that they land on someone. And so then we scratch our heads wondering, why did this conversation not go well? It's this person's the problem. When we don't have the ability to think about how did I deliver this? So if it's a business relationship, that's important to you. But you want to say no to this. You want to think of a great way to say no.

So we want to think about how do we let people down without hurting their identity, going back to identity. Was there ever a time when you were interviewing or interrogating someone and you didn't believe them ever, but they were telling 100% of the truth? Oh my God, you just reminded me of this case. You're just like, I know this person's lying to me, but at telling 100 of the truth oh my God you just reminded me of this case you're just like I know this person's lying to me but at the end of the day everything he said was pretty true or almost 100 this was this was I've never I had it was such a simple case and it was even it was not even for a lot of money it was an ATM scam this man was going to ATMs and he was taking stealing money somebody would go in use their credit and he was taking, stealing money. Somebody would go in, use their credit card.

He'd come from behind, take money. Very simple. On the ATM. Like put him up with like a gun or something? No, no, no, no, no. Just follow them in. There's these little skimmers that they put on top of the machine. So when you scan your card, that it would pick up your information as well.

And then you could go. There's all these different scams. So, but when you go to the ATM, there's camera there it's got your full picture so I have a picture of this guy my my perpetrator it's a picture of him I see him his face he's wearing a hat he's wearing a New York Knicks hat and I was like here's my guy all right you know I've got it all I got to do is lay the picture on so he shows up for his interview wearing the same new york knicks hat so i start speaking to him i don't take out my evidence right because i'm saving that because i'm that's my you knew this is a slam dunk this is slam dunk i was

like he didn't even steal a lot five hundred dollars it was something small i don't know how it landed in my lap but it did and sir you took the money no no miss i swear to god i would never do that sir we have this so i'm doing this with him for like 15 minutes and this is a mistake on my part we have proof we have you know video footage of you everything no never me never me and i pull out i think i'm being slick and i pull out my photo of him boom right on the table who's that sir right now sitting there i'm all smug i'm like i got this guy and he takes it and he looks at it he's like looks like me yeah he looks like me he's not me i was like what that's you he's like it looks like me that's not me same hat new york knicks hat the guy's wearing the hat right now yeah no and now it was a crazy interview and i remember it

was for money it was not for a lot of money in fact when it came to financial crimes crimes that had to do with money it was actually harder to get people to confess to those why less guilt less guilt they didn't hurt someone physically yes they might have hurt them financially yes i'm at home i'm sitting behind my computer i'm in my fuzzy slippers yeah or even if i'm doing it at the atm i'm not stealing from you i'm stealing from the bank yeah but it's different when i walk by you and actually stealing from the bank. But it's different when I walk by you and actually put my hand in your pocket. It's different when I go into your home and I assault you. So there's that level of guilt when it's money. And especially if you steal it from an

institution, zero guilt. Those were the hardest to get. But yeah, that was my guy. I will never forget him. That's why I started laughing. Was it him or was it not him? It was him. We arrested him anyway because we had the proof. But it's always great to get, it's always helpful to have a confession because it really just kind of seals everything. You've got the evidence. You've got this. The person said it. But he never agreed to it. No, no, no. He said, it looks like me, but it's not me. No, same New York Snick hat. Yeah, I don't know. I guess he's from New York. Who doesn't like the Knicks? He just, nothing. And you could see his face.

Looks like me. I got nothing from him. Really? Yeah. So he never actually told the truth, but it was, in fact, him. It was him. I mean, we had evidence. We had prints and all that stuff.

But yeah, no, he, you know, to the end. No, not me. Could you tell, like? I couldn't tell. You couldn't tell he was lying or not? I couldn't tell. No, he was so believable. But I knew going in that he was my guy.

Right. So that's why I was like, I know it's him, but it was just like stoic. And there's a moment I'm like, is it not him? Right? They're so good. You're like, am I seeing this right? Turn the photo around. I'm like, no, no, it's him.

It's him. It's him. No, no, this is you. So some people are that good. Some people are that good. They will. Some people. And I think this is, look, this was also somebody who committed a lot of crimes.

He was used to it. He knew how to get out of it. So certain people who lie a lot usually become better at it. Or they don't feel bad. They become better at it or they or they don't feel bad it becomes become better at masking it you obviously have a great conscience and so it bothered you and so all your tells were shown you couldn't conceal your heart is bumping like your chest is tight like your throat is clenching you're like uh it bothered you yeah which is a healthy thing. It's actually a healthy thing when it bothers you.

We tend to see in people who have sociopathic tendencies or antisocial tendencies, those people don't tend to be bothered. And so they can lie and can be quite calm about it because they don't feel that guilt. The majority of people will feel guilt. So the majority of people will feel the way you feel because you know it's wrong, you feel it. Whereas those individuals with those tendencies, they don't care. What about a situation that you lied your way through

where someone believed you? Is there a situation like that in the last three to five years where you lied about something you're not proud of maybe? Oh, sure. But people believed you and more than just, oh, I'm having a good day, lie? You know what I did? I could probably confess to this. This was so long ago.

It was back in the day I got a money order from the post office. And I was young. I was a kid. I wasn't making a lot of money. I was in college. And so I asked for a money order for like $3.99. I pay, I get it. And then as I'm leaving, I see $4.99. And I'm like, oh. A hundred bucks. A hundred bucks. And I took it. And to this day, I remember it. It bothered me. Really?

Yeah. It bothered me. Did it bother you that you didn't tell the truth right then and say, hey, you guys gave me too much? No, I took the money. Yeah. I took the money. Did it bother you that you lied about it? Statute of limitations.

I think I'm okay. I took the money. It bothered me afterward because I knew it was wrong. I will tell you this one story. We went. Did that come up in the Secret Service interview? Did you ever steal something like money when you were younger? You know what I did lie about and did come up in my Secret Service interview?

I'll tell you that. When I applied for the job, when I went to college, my parents, and I love my family, they weren't very supportive. They weren't very supportive of my decisions. My dad was a bit difficult. They didn't really want me to go. And so when you apply for college, you need their paperwork, their tax paperwork. I needed aid. They couldn't afford it.

And so my dad was so upset with me, he wouldn't give me his tax paperwork. To go to college? Yeah. He didn't agree with my decisions because I was going to private school that they could not afford. And I was like, I'll figure it out on my own. But either way. And so I lied.

When I went to the school, I said, I can't get this tax paperwork. You know, the main person was there is like, well, you think you can't get aid. And so I went back to the school later on and I said, I'm not living at home. I'm alone. Can I get aid? I can't get access to this tax paperwork. And then I got aid. So I flat out, I, yup, I lied. And I spilled the beans in my polygraph. I was like- You told them this is what happened. I said, I lied to get financial aid because i couldn't qualify for aid and so i was like you know they didn't care that i was like look my dad my mom they won't give me

their tax paperwork they're so upset with me they don't agree with my decision to go to this school to do this and they're like no unless you don't have your parents in your life i was just like i was like i'm going to college yeah and i lied but in my polygraph i was just like, I was like, I'm going to college. Yeah. And I lied. But in my polygraph, I was like, I have to tell you something. Actually, I said it before they hooked me up. And I said, look, I did. I lied about this. I did this. You know, like, why did you do it? I was like, I wanted to go to college. I couldn't get money to go to school. So I was OK. I got the job. Wow. How many things did you tell, did you confess to before you took the polygraph? That was my biggest thing. Yeah. That was my thing.

Drugs, like I never had, despite growing up in New York, I never had any issues. I always stayed away from it, I think, because I saw so much around it, of that around me. And the more people kind of put it in my face, the more I was kind of like, I'm not doing that. But probably would have been the opposite. If nobody did it, I'd be the one to be like, oh, I'm going to try this. I think that was the

biggest thing. It weighed the heaviest with me because I was like, I did this bad thing. I lied on my financial aid paperwork to get aid. I'm hoping the statute of limitations has expired on that as well. I paid back all my loans. I'm sure it's fine. Yeah. I paid back all my loans. When you're in an interrogation or an interview, or you're on a first date, or you're at a job interview in your career, or any type of first interview in any situation, what's the best way to build command, authority, and credibility? Yeah. So you can do very simple things like when you greet someone, hi, how are you? Come on in. Why don't you use the bathroom before we get started? So I'm not asking you, would you like to use the bathroom? I'm telling you, why don't you go use the bathroom? Why don't you have something to drink? What can I bring you? Right? So I'm in

this subtle way, I'm telling you to go to the bathroom and you're gonna go because of the way i said why don't you go to the bathroom no no go before we get started right you just said authority um why don't you have something to drink oh no i'm good no have something to drink so now we're gonna be here for a little bit have something so now i'm i'm planting these little seeds telling you I'm in control. I'm not telling you, but I'm doing it subtly. Have a seat there. You know, you can show me where to sit.

Or on the flip side, you could also practice something called autonomy, where you let somebody choose their own seat. And that's a different tactic. So there's two tactics here. Where would you like to sit? Yeah. Where would you like to sit? So you may use

that on me if you want to talk about a topic that I don't want to talk about. And so autonomy makes me feel like I have a choice. You let me choose where I'm going to sit because you're going to let me have it later. You're going to try to push me on something later. So I gave you something. Now the law of reciprocity means you give me something later. Exactly. But also autonomy though, it's actually also not reciprocity. It's actually more of I feel in control because we don't like to feel like we're not in control. So if you want to talk about something where I'm really uncomfortable, I don't feel like I'm in control. I will give you control elsewhere. So I will give you control in picking where you want to meet. I will give you control in what time. I will give you control in picking where you want to meet. I will give you control

in what time. I will give you control in where you want to sit. Little things like that you can do where that person has autonomy to choose. We can do it here. We can talk about this or we can talk about this. Which would you prefer? Nobody likes to feel like they don't have control. So a way that you can deal with a resistant person is by giving them some level of control. When you're going on a first date, how is it? And you've been maybe in an abusive relationship in the past where you were a doormat. You were walked on. You had no control, no authority.

The person that you were in a relationship with walked over your boundaries, took advantage of all that. And you've had time to heal and now you're getting back out there. Yeah. How can that person create a great dating experience in that first date to put themselves more in the driver's seat with some authority and not a doormat mentality? to put themselves more in the driver's seat with some authority and not a doormat mentality. All right, so there's two things. I think the first thing is don't take out on that person

what was done to you by somebody else. That's the worst. Because we've all been victims of things to some degree. And let's say even if it was abuse, if it was horrible, it was that. It is also not fair to take that out on an innocent person, like to take your trauma out to someone else. And sometimes we can feel trauma elsewhere

and then project it onto someone else who didn't cause that to us. So I would say that's the most important thing because it will allow you to connect. The other thing I will say is the majority of people tend to trust. When we have relationships with people, we tend to go and trust people. So when someone says something to you, you tend to believe it. The average person. Why is that? We're just engineered that way. And I don't even know why that is, but we tend to to sway towards trusting the person. In law enforcement, actually, it's the opposite. Law enforcement officials are notorious for

thinking people are deceitful. So the average person believes people are honest. Law enforcement believes people are deceitful because they deal with more people who lie. But that causes a problem elsewhere because when you do have innocent people. We're telling the truth. They're telling you the truth. And then you get false confessions. You get problems. You're looking at the wrong person because you're confirmation bias.

That's a whole other animal over there. But knowing that we tend to give people, we tend to believe people automatically. Just hold a little bit of that back. Don't- Believe less? Just be more reserved in how much you trust. Discerning about it, yeah. Yes. Just don't put it all out on the table. Oh my God, this guy's great, or gal's great. I just connected with them. And then when we do, we go nose in. And so you don't want to give unconditional trust. So unconditional trust is like, I give you now trust across the board. I trust you in everything. When you start dating someone or any new relationship, even in business, always conditional trust. I'm not going to trust you

all the way. I'm going to trust you part of the way. So now here's the thing. We love to trust unconditionally, which is probably why we tend to just want to give people trust. It's less work. I could just turn my brain off. I can trust you, Louis. Great story, yeah. Louis, ask me anything you want, because you asked me in the beginning, is there anything off the table? I'm like, no, Louis, go ahead and ask. But you give that person unconditional trust, and I don't have to think so hard. I don't have to worry if you're going to manipulate me. I don't have to think so hard. I don't have to worry if you're going to manipulate me. I don't have to be on my guard.

It's easy. It's easier that relationship. Conditional trust means I have to be a bit more careful. So it's like me going to buy a car. I know I'm dealing with a car salesman. I know I should be careful. It's just understood that they try to get you to buy certain things. They use certain language.

So when I go in, I go in with conditional trust. And so I'm better protected. That's why there you're less likely to get hurt in those situations where you understand, I can't fully give everything to this person. I can't fully trust them conditionally. I can, um, so I, excuse me, unconditionally. So I have to just be careful. The thing is, that's work. It's a lot of work. We get tired. We access a specific part of the brain when we do that, a more complex part of the brain.

So that's why unconditional trust, you don't want to give it right away. And that is why when we get betrayed by people close to us, that's why it hurts more. It's usually by people who betrayed us on who we give unconditional trust to. That's my advice for dating. That's when it stings. Would you use the same approach if let's say you're, you know, I haven't been on a first date in forever, but let's say you're on a date, your first date with someone, would you say, hey, why don't you have some water? Why don't you use the restroom first? Where would you like to sit? Would you do the same approach there?

I would not because I don't want to establish authority there. That's not, if you're looking to have a relationship, I would not do that. That's not, that's creepy. That's a controlling, unhealthy relationship. What should you establish, trust? I think rapport and trust. And I think probably the best thing you can do is just not talk about yourself and listen

to that other person. Just ask about them. What would be the... You did that to me when I walked in. Yeah. It was like heavy, boom, boom, boom, boom. I was like, ah. What would be the three questions, three most fascinating questions someone could ask on a first date that would not be interrogational, but be connecting questions.

Ted, tell me about yourself. Explain to me what your dreams are. Describe to me what your hopes are. Don't create a question because you may ask a question that you think is fascinating and they're going to look at you like, that's the dumbest thing i've ever heard you don't right because we you don't know what they think like what they what their what their aspirations are what they're we're not hypothetical first date what would you say to me using the tell me about your podcast i'd love to hear all about it okay explain to me how you got into that describe to me like what it's like when you interview all these different people. I'm going to shut up and I'm going to let you go, Louis.

Because now I get to hear you. I get to see what you're like, your values, your beliefs, what excites you, what doesn't excite you. You're going to tell me about why you started it. You're going to tell me about your background, what got you into it, any growing pains or heartaches or how this happened. You're going to tell me about your favorite guests. You're not favorite guests. You're going to tell me about the amazing things you learned or maybe some of the things that you were like, I can't believe I brought this guest on. And so now you just opened up this world and I had to do no work and I can just listen. These are more indirect questions. Is that right? Or open-ended questions.

So don't ask a direct question. Who is your favorite guest? Don't say that. No. I would tell me about, tell me about your guests. And then I would allow you to naturally tell me on your own because you feel like you're in control and it's more likely that you will tell me on your own. But if I ask you directly, and if you want to protect the integrity of the people you interview, because you don't want to say, this is my favorite guest to make it public because then it's going to hurt the people that come on the show, right? Your clientele, so to speak, your guests. So I would, you're not going to answer it.

You're going to be reluctant. Oh, Evie, I love everybody. It's like my kids. You know, you can't say your favorite kid. It's all your kids. You're going to say that. It's like when people ask me, who's your favorite president? I always say, I love them all. They're all, I love protecting all your kids. You're going to say that. It's like when people ask me, who's your favorite president? I always say, I love them all.

They're all, I love protecting all of them. But if somebody says, tell me about the people you protected or tell me about the presidents you protected. Now I feel comfortable. I'm in control. I'm talking. The more we talk, the more we leak. I'm less guarded.

It's less direct. I don't even know you're trying to find that. And I may naturally on my own get there. Tell me about a characteristic of a president that wowed you the most. You like that opener? You like that opener? Oh, you used Ted on me. A characteristic from one of the presidents that you were just like, obviously they're all inspiring in some way, I'm assuming, for you. But tell me about a characteristic or a belief, a mindset, an approach, a strategy that one of them used that wowed you.

I liked, there's a couple. There's like little things. I'll tell you, former President George Bush, senior, he used to write note cards to everybody. He had a little, he wrote note cards. Thank you so much. He would just send little note cards to people. And I saw what an impact that made to people to receive a hand written note. He hand wrote it from someone saying, thank you. I appreciate you. And to this day, I do that. And I took that from President George Bush.

Because I saw that and I was like, what a wonderful thing. And I saw how much of an impact that did. It was a very little thing, but I took that from him. So whenever I meet someone or there's an exchange or something, I will write a handwritten note card. Thank you for your time. I appreciate it. And it does a lot. Did he write you a card?

He did not write me a card. He wasn't my full-time protectee, but I watched. Yeah, you watched him actually write it for other people? Yeah. Or you saw other people get it? Both. You would see them when they would work and you would know what they did or didn't do. But that's what he did. And other characteristics, I think, I liked President Obama.

I liked the way he spoke. And for me, that was very, I appreciated that because I, although I was an agent and an interviewer, I didn't know how to speak for myself. It's weird, right? I could speak on behalf of the government and the law and all that. But I never paid attention to the way I spoke to people. And what I loved, you could hear him. You could hear him. Usually you call renegade. I could say it. It's public. It's in his book. Renegade on the move, right? You could

hear the agent say that, but you could hear him. You could hear him. I love the way he echoed his voice and projected his voice and didn't hold it back and how he took his time to speak, where a lot of people speak very fast because we feel that we're not worthy of somebody's time. I don't want to take up too much of your time, so I'm going to speak fast. We do that. We feel like, let me just hurry up and say this. This person's probably busy. They have things to do. And then he really projected his voice. It boomed through the hallways. And that was a person who was not shy of being present, of taking a space and letting you know I'm here and my voice is relevant. I like that. That's powerful.

Yes. Any other characteristics from anyone else? There's so many. The ones that wowed you, that stood out? They all did. They were all great. George Washington. How old are you?

GW, President George Bush. I love going to the ranch with him. I'm from New York City. I go to Texas. And I was just like, what? We were out in the wild. He's like, we're going. We're going to make trails. I was like, why are we going to make trails? There's a road right there. You know, we'd cut trails and hike. And he was very authentic. Who he was on camera was who he was off camera and vice versa. He was very just real.

And so you'd see these qualities with different people. And, you know, it's kind of interesting. I just thought of it. I was almost like in my own school of greatness by being in the White House. And then over all the years of about around all these people, these influential leaders, despite, forget politics, it still takes a person of some. To get there. Yes, to get there. And so you watch them.

And then not just them. They've got cabinet members, other individuals who you watch and you listen to. You see how they problem solve. And I was in my own school of greatness where I just got to be front row. And you're doing your job. At the same time, you're like, you're listening, you're watching, you're doing your job at the same time you're like you're listening you're watching you're absorbing i loved it were there any strategies you witnessed or watched or observed from them telling you or not telling you on how they commanded respect and authority in just their

way of being tonality was it touching people and you know in in their hand? Is it, you know, whatever it is. Eye contact. What were the things that they did or that some of them did that really stood out to you? So I'll tell you this. They didn't have to work as hard. Because they're already the authority. Because they're already the authority. So you don't, so I want to say that.

Like they don't, the president can look at you and be like, hey, how you doing? And then like blow you off. And you're like, oh my God, I got like a whole solid second. Whereas when they're talking to me or you, it's just like, you only gave me a second, right? So they don't have to work as hard. So even the little attention they give you lands on you. However though, eye contact is huge.

When you talk to someone and you wanna convey, you wanna convey, hey, trust me. And rapport, this is huge. In fact if you go to the supermarket and you look at cereal boxes they have cartoon the characters on the cereal boxes. They're looking at you. You know where they a lot of them look down? They're looking down. You know who they're looking down? You'll see cereal boxes where the character looks down. At the cereal. No I'm a cereal box right i'm the tricks rabbit or whatever right now you go shopping i'm not looking at you i'm looking

down why am i looking down the rabbit's looking down right the rabbit's looking down thank you wow because the kid's the consumer yeah not the adult no the kid's gonna say mom come grab me mom buy that for me oh my gosh So they designed them to actually look down. And they also put them at a certain level. And so maybe an adult serial, they'll have the person looking at higher up because they're looking at the adult. Eye contact is huge. It conveys, trust me. Talk to me.

I'm here. I'm connected with you. Even when you want to listen to people. Normally we do break eye contact, but good communicators will lock in. They're not uncomfortable. They're there. I'm with you. I'm connected with you. That is huge. But you touched on literally touching people and you would see a tactic. I don't want to say a tactic, but no, it's a tactic. It's a strategy. It's a strategy. It's, you know, hey, you know, Louis, and, you know,

and maybe I like to touch your forearm. Yeah. You can do that. But I will say today. You can't do that. Today is very different. Yeah. You know, they would teach us that.

They're like, hey, you can touch the top of a person's knee and just be like, hey. And I could be like, whoa, unwanted touch. So now I would actually go against that. I would actually encourage people not to do that just simply because you don't know how it's going to be received. And now today, you got to be a little bit less is more with that. Yeah, I mean, shaking a hand maybe and that's it for a second hand on the top, like a genuine heartfelt for two seconds and then let it go. Yeah, I think so. I think so.

You want to respect people's space. It's a little bit different. I think we have more, well, we do have more social space now. And it's interesting how that's going to change the dynamics of how we interact in the future. Interesting. How do you build that trust without being present and more connected and touching? Right. And you have a mask. You can't even see the lower portion of a person's face, which conceals their expressions, their gestures. So it's even harder to read them. So how do we read people like that? Is it more body language then of like shoulders down? It's harder. In person is always better. And obviously if you're on Zoom, you can

see the person, but the tone, the inflection of the voice, does it change? Does it not? The body posture. Again, sometimes it's just as simple as how they say something, you know, the way they deliver a story. For example, when I worked cases, sometimes I did interviews and interrogations and I would be asked to help local police departments sometimes. And they'd say, look, we have this case and we've got three suspects, but we can't figure out who it is. And I would, you know, I'd always want to interview the person I thought it was. And so I would say, send me, do you have statements? And they say, yes.

And I'd say, send me the statements that they wrote. Written statements. Written statements. About what they said, their story is. Their story is, correct. Because these are people typically that had been already interviewed by local police. They got nothing. They have no proof. So they would reach out and they say, look, you guys are polygraph examiners. You have a bit more

expertise in this. Will you help us out? It's an important case. And so I'd say, send me their statements. And so I'd look at their statements and based on their statements I would be able sometimes most of the time to tell who likely did it and it was those statements that and this also happens when we tell a story when we speak when you ask somebody what did you do yesterday when they deliver you deliver a beautiful story to you that has a beginning every and an end it's an arc when it's a story it's an arc it's typically manufactured it's a lie usually yes because we don't typically talk about our stuff like that and so when I would read a story I would

read a statement and if I read like a story because the person's like the liars like oh I got to write a story. I got to tell them what I did here than did here. They're manufacturing it. A truthful person is going to write how their day went. And a truthful person also makes spontaneous corrections. So it contradicts what a lot of people think in that if I correct myself as I'm telling you something. Then it looks like

I'm hiding something. It looks like I'm, yes, I'm correcting myself because I'm hiding something. I can't remember my lie. And it's actually not true. Those are the honest ones. Yes. Actually, that was a mistake. It's a spontaneous correction. When it's unsolicited and somebody you're speaking to, or even in writing, you'll see a scribble. It's okay. If it's a spontaneous correction, meaning they're correcting themselves as they're speaking to you, it indicates truthfulness. That's an interesting little... Yes.

And also, too, like a little one when somebody uses quotes when they talk to you. They'll say, oh, he said, and quote, you know, they'll tell you something somebody said in quotes. Like he said, you know, this in quotes. That's also truthful. The air quotes. The air quotes. When someone uses that, not on the written paper quotes, but the air quotes.

Oh, even in both, yes. Someone uses quotes. Yes. And I read, they said this. That means they're telling more likely the truth. Yes. Why is that? Because they're being very specific. We also know based on the research,

people who lie, lie vaguely. Remember I said, it's work, it's hard work. It's you're trying to create a lie, tell a lie, remember the lie, listen to the person speaking to you, think about what you want to say. There's so much going on. And so what they do is they lie vaguely because it's too hard for me to remember all these details, create all these details. It's just too much. It's a heavy cognitive load. I heard one time in one of these books or somewhere that when you say, I did not, as opposed to I didn't do it. When you're like more specific of like, I did not do this. Is that generally speaking more untruthful? So again, it depends on the person.

I'm thinking of a famous president that said I did not commit these sexual relations. Well, we know he was dishonest. But okay, so you said that statement. I did not. And so it is true. Most people like when... Did you have pizza this morning for breakfast? No.

You're not going to be like, Evie, I did not have pizza this morning for breakfast. Right? You're not going to work so hard. So when people lie, they work very hard sometimes to sell you the lie. Kind of full story. Think of a car salesman. How hard do they work you? Like, oh, you got to get this.

This is great. So when people work that hard, it's likely that there's some deception there. But if I'm just like, no, go pound sand. I didn't do it. And I don't, you know, the truth is typically simple. No. But if that person though in their everyday speech always speaks like that, that's where you want to be careful.

Because maybe I'm that person who does that. Or another thing that people say to be weary of is like when people start off a sentence saying, honestly, honestly, I would never do that. Truthfully, this would never happen. Right. Honestly, I would never do that. Truthfully, this would never happen. Right. But if I use that in my conversation, I sprinkle that all the time into the way I speak.

If it's part of my language, then I'm not lying. It's just the way I color my language. That's why it's good to use the TED approach to talk for 20, 30 minutes to see how they normally talk. How do they speak? Their expression and mannerisms, yeah. What are their mannerisms? see how they normally talk, their expression and mannerisms. What are their mannerisms? And you can ask them truthful questions about, you know, something where maybe they have to remember something, tell you something like that you know is truthful rather than

just how they feel. And that's, you know, that'll give you indication of like, so you know for sure they're telling me the truth here. You know, oh, tell us about how it was coming in this morning. Or something very simple. You can ask questions that are benign. They don't evoke anything. It's not a yes or no answer.

No, they don't evoke anything. However, though, evocation, so we're rolling into all these techniques, is very good when you have someone who is reluctant to speak with you when you want to evoke emotion so when you have somebody that's shut down on you i may call you a liar because i want you to give me something because you're giving me nothing and so this is why it's so important to ted people or to know the person you have across from you because if i have a resistant person i'm going to speak a certain way if I have a resistant person, I'm going to speak a certain way. If I have a high conflict person, I'm going to speak a certain way.

If I have a business relationship and they're amicable, I'm going to speak a different way. If I have someone who's identity-based, this is why really paying attention to the human being across from you matters. Once you do this, and then you're going to know, you're going to start, you're going to start taking people like up, identity, up, instrumental, up, high conflict, and then you know how to maneuver. Interesting. What could you test on me right now to see whether I'm lying or telling the truth? About something, maybe not some crazy thing, but just... I can't. It won't work

because you're telling me to do it you're prepared for it that's where when the interesting yes it won't work it never works never works interesting no because you know you're ready yeah you're gonna lie you're gonna lock in you're gonna do everything i just taught you well my my goal would be to tell the truth and to see if you actually believe it or not it has to be organic and it can't be manufactured. And I wouldn't go straight for it. I would, you know, maybe if I wanted to know about your past criminal history when you were younger and there was something that you were, maybe one of those things you really didn't want to talk about and I knew it, then I would try to build rapport and get you to

speak about it. Or I'd ask you, why don't you want to speak about it? Because sometimes I would have someone and they're like, look, I don't want to talk about this. And I would say, okay, why don't you want to talk about this? It's okay. You don't have to tell me what it is, but why don't you? And sometimes that was a great way for me to open the door. So if I had somebody who would not confess to a crime, you know, or whatever. And I would say, could you just tell me why you don't want to talk about this? Or what are you so worried about if this gets out? And I remember one case, one person said, I don't want my wife to find out. And that moment I was like, he did it.

He did it. He did it. He did it. Cause he just told me why if he didn't do it or she didn't do it that wouldn't be in their mind yeah and so people can tell you so you can start there why don't you want to talk about this why do you feel this way what are you worried about and so that's a different angle from instead of being like tell me this go back to how they feel go to identity tell me what it is you're afraid of tell me what

you're so worried about why do you feel that you can't share this you don't have to tell me anything just tell me what's going on with you as long as I could keep somebody talking that's it you just got to keep them doing this what was your biggest fear as a as an agent we're talking interviews, there's two. If we're talking interviews, I never wanted an innocent person to confess to a crime they never committed. Oh, man. That's sad. And I was always very, very, very careful.

I actually erred on the side. I actually erred more so on the side. I gave more people benefit than the other way around. Because to me, it was worse to have. Someone in jail who didn't do it. Yes. That is like the worst thing. It's got to be the horrible for that person.

That was like something that I was very, very, very aware of. How many people do you think are in prison or jail for something they didn't do right now? I think quite a few. And I think we see it when you look at now the DNA testing that we do, the scientific testing that we do to see who gave false confessions, to see how people were manipulated and maneuvered. And it's not always because the interviewer is bad. It's because they tend to think, again, law enforcement tends to think most people are deceptive.

You come in, Louis is my guy in lewis is my guy i know lewis is my guy so now no matter what you say my my even when you're trying even when you are saying things that are are showing your innocence i'm still focused on you did it so it's confirmation bias no No matter what you say, I'm going to make it fit the narrative I want, which is you did it. And so that was a very important thing because I had seen it. I knew how you could do it. And I had people in the room, if they're young, if they're mental health issues, or sometimes you get people in weak moments or sometimes people see you you're law enforcement you're with the authority you're police i'm supposed to trust you and they do and they don't realize that the law allows for police and law enforcement to use deception in the room

to get you to confess it is legal so i could say to you what if what if i told you i have fingerprints i got no fingerprints what if i told you i have if what if I told you I have fingerprints oh I got no fingerprints what if I told you I have fingerprints what if I told you that what would you say I'm lying I'm using manipulation and so some of that stuff it's not you know there's a lot of research and science on this now like it's not good you don't you don't want to lie to people you want to try to stay you really want to try to read them understand, and just get them to talk to you. And that's also important, not just with solving cases, but when you interview victims and witnesses. Sometimes the inability to interview somebody properly affects whether a case gets solved or not.

So if I don't know how to effectively interview a witness or a victim, I can get bad information. How tall are you? 5'2". 5'2". Mighty 5'2". When you went to be an agent, I'm assuming it was a lot of men when you were there in the start. Is that correct? Mm-hmm.

Much taller, bigger in general, right? More than 5'2". Yeah. Did you ever feel insecure or intimidated or a lack of self-confidence being in the position you were in? No, and I don't know if it was maybe my dad. Even though my parents, I had certain issues, but I don't know.

I never thought about that. I never went in thinking, I shouldn't be here. I never went in, oh, I'm a woman. I went in, I'm like, oh, man, I never thought about that. I never went in thinking, I shouldn't be here. I never went in, oh, I'm a woman. I went in, I'm like, oh, man, I'm the only woman. Good for me. I really had a different mindset. I was proud that, oh, my God, there's no other women. I'm like, good for me.

If I went to a meeting. Yes. I was proud of that fact. So I never looked at it as a negative. Why? I'm the only woman. I was just like, good job. So that's how I took it. And I was proud of that. And so that kept me going. I didn't think about my gender. I just did my job. And look, will people treat you differently? Will that stuff happen? Yes, it will. Whether it's gender, race, that stuff happens. I don't care what anyone says.

It happens. But I cannot alter myself and I cannot let you, who I know you're wrong anyway, impact me and not do my job well because now psychologically you're in my head. I remember I went to, I usually don't share these stories, but I went to the Air Force Academy in Colorado. President Obama was going to go speak. And I was the agent in charge of the outside perimeter of the stadium. And then I was there with several other agents, and we're meeting the head person. He was a colonel, lieutenant colonel in the air force i don't remember so it's me all

male agents there's about several of us and you were in charge i was in charge of the auto perimeter yes i was one of the two people in charge there was the other agent was in charge of the inner perimeter and then everybody else worked for us not worked for us they were supporting us yes and so the colonel comes and he comes in and so let's say you know here's here's everybody here all the agents i'm in the middle and the colonel comes and he's like nice to meet you nice to meet you nice to meet you this legit happened i'm right here and it's like no he did not nice to meet you nice he skipped me and you were in charge and he was he did you know he shouldn't have even mattered.

And so it took everything in me to not be like, to not blow up. He went over your head. He went over. No, he did not. He skipped me. He skipped me. The guy next to you. He assumed I was either a secretary or staff or something.

Because he's like, hey, let me talk to the other. Oh, wow. I remember that. And I was just like, did this guy do this? he's like, hey, let me talk to the other. Oh, wow. I remember that. And I was just like, did this guy do this? I'm like, this guy just did this. You know, I'm having an internal dialogue with me. I said nothing. I said nothing.

I was like, doesn't matter. I was like, he's going to find out who's in charge in a couple hours. And he did. Hi, I'm the agent in charge of your outer perimeter. Who's my counterpart and who do I speak to? So you didn't take it personally? I didn't look dumb. He looked dumb.

Wow. I think, why would I take it personally if somebody is ignorant enough to do that? And why would I want that person's attention or respect? In my mind, I was just like, you can keep all of that. Right. I'm going to go do my job. Do my job, yeah.

That's exactly. So you can't, at least for me, I never let it get in my head because it's like, I'm going to go do my job. Do my job. Yeah. That's exactly. So I, you can't, at least for me, I never let it get in my head because it's like, I have a job to do. I have a mission to do. And if I get people, if I allow somebody to get in my head, people will die. I'm not doing that. Right. Were you ever nervous in interviews or interrogations? in interviews or interrogations? In the beginning, I was worried about, I was worried about not being respected.

I was worried about, because I didn't want to be an interrogator. I did not want to be one. Not being respected by the perpetrator. Not the team. Yeah, you're interviewing, oh, the team. Not your team, Secret Service team. No, because at that point, when I became an interrogator,

I went to specialized training. They were scared of me because then I started doing the polygraphs for new recruits. And so they would tell me all their personal bad stuff that they did. I had it all. I had all the goods. And then six months later, they see me in the hallway and I'm like, hey, how are you doing? And they're just like, oh, my God, she knows all my dirty stuff. So, no, after that, people were kind of like, hey, you almost like repel people. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, you never speak about that stuff. When people expose themselves like that to you, you don't do that. Right.

So you got nervous a couple times in the beginning? In the beginning, I didn't want to be an interviewer or an interrogator because I thought nobody would respect me. I was like, these guys are going to see me and they're going to be like. The perpetrators. Yes, the perpetrators. Because you're dealing with sometimes really hardened people. And they see you coming in, they're like, this girl? Yeah. And I was like, you, I really had in my head the image of something else and what you see on television. I didn't know. And afterward, I realized that the idea that I didn't look intimidating and that they were not expecting me, they're like, oh, this is a piece of cake. And they sit back like, what do you want to talk about? I was like, let's talk about anything you

want. And then sure enough, admission after admission after admission to the point like, hey, do you mind just writing all that down for me here, right here? Thank you. And you have a good session. probably did it i mean you're probably easier you're less intimidating to look at maybe in terms of like this big man that you'd see on tv like in your face that stuff doesn't work by the way right none of that works it looks great for tv in real life male or female when you impose yourself on someone like that to that extent they shut down, they get nervous, they're intimidated, they may tell you anything just to get you to leave

them alone. Those are not good tactics. I'm not saying that they're not used by a lot of interviewers and law enforcement. I think they are because there's those moments where I do an interview with someone from another department. I'd sit there and I'm like... This is not the way to do it. It was rough sometimes.

But you can't tell somebody, hey, don't do this. I'm in your house. But there were moments where sometimes it was harder. So I usually would do them with either an experienced interrogator from my own agency because we knew how to work together. It was only like 30 of us. So I would say, I want this person for this. If it was like a child pedophile case, we had one guy who I knew was great. I'm like, I want that guy. If it was terrorism, I'd say I want this guy because he's really good. And I say

guy because they're mostly, mostly guys, not all, but even the female interrogators, we had some good ones. Yeah. And so what was the time where you felt like, oh, I'm in trouble. I said the wrong thing. I messed up. It's about to go down the wrong way. Was there ever a time like that? Or were you always pretty much in control? I never felt like that because it's a conversation. I let it flow. It wasn't very rigid. If I have just an agenda and I have to go from here to here to here to here, that's where adaptability comes in. I didn't go in saying, here's my plan, here's my agenda, and I have to follow this. Because I have to allow the person to go where they want to go.

So I may ask them, what did you do last night? Tell me about your night. And now they're telling me about, you know, how every night they go to karate. And, oh, let me tell you, I started doing karate. And they're telling me this whole other story. And I'm thinking, I don't want to know about how you started karate i want to know about last night but i would allow them that ability to do that or sometimes you have somebody who's worried about it who's maybe angry that they're there and i would have to allow them to talk

about what they wanted to get off their chest why they were angry why they were there what they were scared of so that they could get it off their chest and then talk to me were the people that were angry mostly innocent or no mix mixed yeah it was a mix it would go where sometimes usually innocent people would be like, I'm done, I'm leaving. But then sometimes you'd have innocent people be like, no, if I keep talking and I tell the truth, they'll see it. So I can't say it was one or the other, but guilty people tend to like to stay in the room. Why? Because I got to convince you. I've got to get you off my back. Oh, wow.

Because you're not going to go away. So you can get up and leave the room, but the investigation is still open. You're coming back. Yeah, yeah. I'm still looking at you. So their goal is to get you. Interesting. To convince you.

Don't look at me anymore. Go look at this other guy. Let me throw some other people your way. And so that's the goal. So they would stay in the room. It's like the car salesman. Always think of the car salesman. Working hard, working hard, working hard.

I don't want you to look at me anymore. I want you to look at someone else because you're going to keep on coming back. If I can get you to look at this other person, now I'm good. So that's why they usually stay. They usually would not leave.'s why they usually stay. They usually would not leave. Guilty people would stay. And how would you influence people to trust you and believe you and like you? I would be genuine. I would tell them the truth. Look, this isn't my case. And often, usually it wasn't. It's not my case. I was like, if you didn't do anything, you didn't do anything. If you did, if you did do something,

I get it. We'll work through it. And I was like, I'm here to help in any way I can and to help facilitate. And so, you know, if you did do something and you're forthcoming and you tell me, I will talk to the prosecutors. I will talk to the investigators and I will tell them that you were cooperative. And I would do that. I would keep my word. It doesn't hurt me. Like it wasn't, it's not personal. None of my cases were personal because sometimes people would ask me when you, when you were done interviewing someone, did you follow that case afterward? No, I was done. Moving on. You don't, I never invested myself personally because it's, I'm not supposed to. I'm supposed to be, and I really like this because they taught us this in the service.

You are an objective seeker of the truth. And I walked into every interview room saying, I am an objective seeker of the truth. So I don't care that everybody here is telling me he did it. You know, I'm going to give this person a chance. And I'm going to look at the evidence, of course. And if I have evidence, like my guy in the hat, who's like, oh, no, that's not me. I mean, he looks like me.

What do you do with that? Where did you go? That was my heavy. And I dropped it early, too. You're not supposed to drop evidence so early. You're supposed to hold it. That was my heavy. After that, I had nowhere to go. No, yes, it's you. No, it's not. But yes, it's you. No, it's not. There's nowhere to go. I lost that one. That one I lost.

You seem like an extremely confident person from a scale from one to 10, 10 being very confident in general of your life. What are you? It fluctuates. In certain moments, I feel very confident and centered. In other moments, I'm like, what the f***? You know? It fluctuates. I think it depends on what it is,

what you're going through, what you're dealing with. If it's family, like those scales, when it's family, like all these composure things go go out the window right or like a whole other thing I think it depends on the situation but there are moments where sure I may lack confidence but sometimes like I would go in and think maybe because I was in such a life or death type of job where I would be like no one's holding a gun to my head i'm not gonna die i'm gonna go home after this i don't care yeah and that's helped me more than anything and my ability to curse usually internally cursing has actually given gives me a lot of strength

really there's actually science behind it that when curse, whether outwardly or inwardly, it actually makes you, it empowers you. You know, so I'd rather be, I'd rather be like, you know, I've always, and I've always had that. Not that it's a good thing, but I always use, try to use my inside voice instead of being like, woe is me. This person's picking on me. These people are doing this to me instead of like inside me and be like, fuck them. Right. You feel more confidence. It shifts it.

Yeah. Instead of me feeling like I'm a victim and I'm being preyed upon, it's just like, who do you know? Screw that, yeah. I think having that part of yourself and the ability to do that, not to intentionally actually hurt someone,

but having that part of you inside. You know, my colonel, right, when he did that, that's exactly what echoed inside my head. Screw this guy. You know, I made sure I'm like inside voice, inside voice, inside voice. But I was like, it doesn't matter. Instead of me being like, if I let that impact me, then the rest of my assignment, every time I see him, I'd feel smaller, I'd be affected. And it was just like, this guy, who's this guy? And that allowed me to do my job. So I think for me, that's helped me quite a bit. If someone listening or watching feels like they lack confidence in most areas of their life, what would you say is the way to overcome

self-doubt and build confidence? Some things they could do. Stop doing things that you're only comfortable with. Take risks, make decisions. I think I've noticed that with people who lack confidence, they're quite indecisive. Indecisiveness is a big thing. And what they will do is they will go take a survey and ask everybody around them, what do you think I should do? What do you think I should do this TV show? And she'd be like, what did you say? What TV show? Oh, you're going to be on TV? You know, I can't ask my mom about a TV business decision.

She doesn't have the experience. I can ask her about something else, you know, that she does have experience in. But indecisiveness is key. How does someone build decisiveness? You got to stop asking people what to do and just do it. And then when you make a mistake, own it. Fall on your face. The more you fail, the more confident you become.

You can't fear failure. I have failed, Louis. I don't even know. I fail so much. And I look at it like, all right. And once that happens, once the worst thing that could happen to you happens, and you are still standing, you are still there, you are still breathing like that, that builds resilience,

indecisiveness, knock that out. The minute you're like, let me ask people, stop, choose. Don't worry about it. Whether you're right or wrong, just do it. Stop. Choose. Don't worry about it whether you're right or wrong. Just do it. So yeah, take risks, make decisions, fail often, choose. Anything else? An overcoming self-doubt that you've seen? The way you talk to yourself in your head. Watch the language you use. Watch your mouth with yourself. So for example, I work out and so there are moments where it happens where I'm sitting on the sofa and I'm just like, I don't want to do this. I don't want to go run outside. I don't want to go to jujitsu. I'm tired. I want to sit. I want to eat popcorn. I don't want to do anything.

I want to watch Netflix. I will never say to myself, don't be lazy. Get up. I'm not lazy. There's nothing about me that is lazy. Why would I ever say that to me? But I will say, if you move, get up, go. And I may be bitching as I'm putting on my sneakers. I don't want to do this. I hate this, whatever. But I will be putting them on and doing it and then go.

But I will never call myself names. And that's something I had to learn over time. Oh, man. This was my entire childhood was calling myself names. You're never going to amount to anything. You're stupid. You suck. Why did you do that?

Idiot. You know, all these things. Even something as simple as like, oh, I'm such an idiot. What did I do? Why did I put that there? And I catch myself. I'm like, don't say that about yourself. You're not an idiot.

I wouldn't want another human. I wouldn't want somebody else to call me an idiot. Why would I call myself an idiot? We get pissed at other people when they call us that stuff, but we don't know. We should get mad at ourselves for calling us that stuff. Yeah. What would you say are the three greatest skills that you have as an interrogator? As an interrogator? I can listen. I can listen and have a person completely shred me

and not say a word. What does that mean, shred you? Like you can have somebody be like, I hate you. You're this, you're that, you know. You don't react. In the interview room, especially with the job, I would sit and take it. Because it wasn't my ego. It's less personal too.

It was less personal. But I've been able to, not always successfully, but even in my personal life, maybe not with my husband so much. He's probably like, yeah, that's bullshit. But he's an interrogator too, so it's all right. But typically with friendships, relationships, I'm better at not. Like I can have people say hurtful or cruel things and not respond. Really? I'm not saying it hurt.

It doesn't hurt. And there's moments, you know, you have those moments where maybe a business relationship doesn't go well or you have a friend or even a distant family member and like they send you a horrible email that, you know, soul crushing. And you just want to point out like just the, you know, the lies or the inadequacies and what they wrote. And I have learned to not respond or to try not to respond. I have my moments too. But I really think to myself, is this person worth responding to? Sometimes it's hard because it's like, I hear what this person's saying. I see what they're doing and you want to respond. And I think it takes so much discipline to not be mean to someone who's being mean to you or hurtful to you. Yeah. That's tough. Because we all go through that. Yeah. Every, each one of us has people in our lives who give us hate and you're

like, how's this happening? Why is this happening? And you want to give it back, especially when you've trusted them unconditionally. You feel betrayed. You believed everything they say. You believed. You accessed the primitive part of your brain and you gave them all that trust. You didn't give them conditional trust.

You gave it all up. And then that relationship goes south and you're, you're just, you can be distraught. That's, that's hard. How did we learn, how did you learn to respond in an empowering way or not respond at all when someone attacks you? That, to be fair, I learned that in the interrogation room, in the interview room. When we were... Were you always like that? So you weren't always like that? No. You'd be like, screw you. I was bad. I was bad.

I was pretty bad. Yeah. I took after my father in that part, you know. And look, I give my dad kudos in that. Like even, you know, I talked about the cursing thing. And I realized where I got it when I'd go home as a kid sometimes. And I'm like, dad, this person picked on me and this, that. This is his advice.

Did you say f*** you? He never taught me to be a victim. Never. And I remember, so my dad passed. And I remember, this is hard. He was, it was, we were at home. And I couldn't handle his pain anymore. He had pancreatic cancer.

And I was managing his treatment at home. And I couldn't manage his pain anymore. He had pancreatic cancer. And I was managing his treatment at home. And I couldn't manage it with the drugs. He had to go into hospice. And then the hospice people came. And we're sitting at this table. It was the round kitchen table. And she's like, we have to take him. You can't manage it anymore.

He has to go to hospice. And I knew in that moment when he left, that was it. He was not coming home. And like the tears are coming down. I'm sitting there and he's like, hey, he's dying. He's like, hey. And he says it to me in Greek, you know. He says to me in Greek and I'll say it in English.

He's like, how are we going to win the war if you're like this? Oh, man. He's like, how are we going to win the fight if you're like this oh man he's like how are we gonna win the fight if you're like this stop and so i i appreciate that because he never taught me to feel like a victim and so to to the to the point where he died and that stayed with me i'm like he's dying he's going to hospice he knows he's never coming back wow and. And he's just, hey, knock it off. So he still wasn't a victim then. He's like, hey, to me, he's like, stop.

How are we going to win the war if you act like this? Wow. How are you going to win in life? I was just like, sorry. Yeah. What was the greatest lesson he taught you? That. You know, to, and he had a temper. He temper he was worse like he would actually vocalize the

the stuff and i learned not to do that he taught me not to be a victim he taught me not to let even though people hurt us he'd be you know he'd say to me does does this person feed you do they clothe you do they do they pay do they pay your bills? And I'd say, no. He's like, what are you upset about? And you have this moment, you're like. Yeah, why am I upset? You're right. It kind of like knocks out quite a few people. And that helped me. I mean, it could also be traumatizing when you're young, you want a little bit of the, hey, I didn't get any of that but i appreciate that and i think that that also intuitively gave me that i'm not i'm not your victim and i don't even like that

word yeah i don't like that word because i think when we think like that we intuitively fall into that role and so sometimes being able to like, hey, F you, it gives you power back to say, I'm not going to take this. I'm not going to do this. Yeah. So number one was listen. You're a great listener. Oh, my God, I forgot the question.

No, it was a great answer. I want to make sure I get to, I want to learn about your other skills too. That was a powerful response. What was the question? The three greatest skills you have as an interrogator. Listen, I think being able to take it when people are cruel, and I think we touched on that. Gosh, man, it's so hard. But you were going to say how you learned that in the training. People would...

How did you learn that? Would they just like constantly come at you in training and say... Oh, you know, when I first learned that, I was in the NYPD. I started in the NYPD first as a a recruit and they used to run us there's it's called the fdr highway the fdr and we'd run in in uh ranks of four we run in these ugly cargo shorts and please change the uniform and these you know i am a little bit of a you know i was just like wait does this know is this not a matching outfit i It's a look good, yeah. I was like, if I want to arrest people, I want to at least look good. If I'm going to get shot today, I want to look good as I'm going down. So we're running in the FDR, four cross and ranks.

And the FDR is a highway, so there's a service area where you run. And people are driving by doing like 40, 50, 60s to highway. And back then, kind of similar to where we are, they hated police. It was before 9-11. They didn't like law enforcement and they'd flip the bird. They'd spit at you while they're doing 50, 60 miles. And I remember we're running and I didn't understand. I got in quite young and somebody like spit our way and gave us the finger. And I'm like, hey. And I turn around and the instructor just grabbed me. He's like, what are you doing?

I was like, did you not see what that guy did? He's like, I was going to give him a piece of my mind. And he's like, no, you don't do that here. He's like, you are not like them. He's like, you control them. He's like, if you can't control what people do, he's like, you're never going to make it out there, nor should you be out there.

Wow. And that was the first time I thought I was being tough. Defending yourself. Defending myself. And that's the first time I learned like you don't, tough people don't need to do that. The real toughness is letting it go. It takes more self-control and more self-discipline

to be able to not say something and say something. There's this great quote. I'm going to butcher it. Aristotle said it, I believe. And it's like, to get angry is an easy thing, but to be angry with the right person for the right reason and in the right way and for the right situation is not easy and not within everybody's power. And so for me, I work on that just because I naturally gravitate to that. But I think for other people who don't, I think they need a little bit more of that part of them that doesn't let them, I'm a victim, I'm this, I'm that,

a little bit more of that fire, like maybe a little bit of crazy. Yeah, yeah. You got to have that. There's good crazy and you got to have that. So if you're if you have a victim mentality a lot maybe step it up and defend yourself a little more yeah or you know put yourself in uncomfortable places and when people say things to you don't you don't want don't you

can't let it crush you you gotta have a little bit of that who are you yeah some thick skin yeah but but not even thick skin but the ability to say like like, you're wrong. I know you're wrong. I don't even need to tell you you're wrong. Yeah. Because sometimes you ever have that, Louis, where you're dealing with somebody and you know they're wrong. Yes. But they lay out all the reasons why they think they're right. And you want to point them out. And sometimes you do, but it doesn't matter.

The energy is not worth it. But it's not like you can get across to them. Yeah. They've already made up their mind. So even if you refute each thing they say, they're just going to come up with something else. Yeah, the energy of reacting is not even worth it at that point. No, then you end up leaving frustrated. And I think the third thing would be what I learned is when you try to say something to someone and when you're going to explain something to someone, you have to ask yourself, does this person sitting across from me have the ability to understand the perspective I'm about to share with them?

Right. They may not. And if they don't, just sit there and just be like, okay, okay. Oh, my God, look at that. Look at the time I got to go. And so I think not wasting your time banging down a door that it's not even a door. It's like letting that go. Yeah, I think I heard in another interview you did where you said, you know, it's our responsibility as leaders in the world to actually be more adaptive and understand where the other person is coming from and not expect them to understand us, where we're coming from.

Yes. And be like emotionally flexible with where they're at. Yes. So with interviewing and with almost everything I try to do, so we have a conversation. I'm 50% of it. You're 50% of it. But what happens is most people get focused on me.

What am I going to say to Louis? How am I going to be with Louis? How am I going to interact with Louis? Me, me, i i i i get nervous i'm insecure how do i look how do i sound and what i've done is given zero uh thought to lewis it's all been about me and so when i live in this space i become nervous i become insecure i have i'm self-conscious but when i leave that aside and I'm like, this is about Louis, I want to hear about Louis. Louis, tell me about yourself. I want to know about you. I want to absorb everything about you. I put my energy into you. And then I listened to you.

How does Louis speak? What's his demeanor? If every time he likes something I says, he does. I do that a lot. That's interesting. That's good. I says he does. I do that a lot. That's interesting. That's good. You know, so I'm like, oh, that's his, that's his posture. That's how he, he's showing you, he's connecting with you. But I have to see the world through Louis's eyes, how he sees it, how he experiences it. So when you say to me, you're like, look, I lied. i did this when i was growing up i did that and if i was just like who does that why would you do that this interview is going south max we're done but my ability to connect with you and allow you to be you and not judge you that was big with people who committed crimes i somebody told me that they did a horrible thing and usually

with a violent crime or with a child, if I sat and I told that person- You're wrong. Disgusting. How could- I'm not seeing from their perspective. They're not going to talk. I'm not going to get information. I'm not learning anything. That is work. And I think when we do, especially like in business or when you're nervous, or if you're like, I'm nervous interviewing, I'm nervous speaking. If you can take the attention you create off of yourself and put it all on that person, now you're distracted by them. But we're nervous. We're uncomfortable when all we're thinking about is me, me, me.

I, I, I, how do I sound? How am I going to do this? How am I going to say that? is me, me, me. I, I, I. How do I sound? How am I going to do this? How am I going to say that? And I'm not connected. It sounds like one of our greatest fears is the opinions of what someone else thinks about us. How do we stop thinking about the judgment of other people, the opinions of other people about the way we look, act, think? I think once you have haters. Haters are good because you get them and you're like, I've got haters. Okay. I have to keep going. And you keep going. So you'll see that.

I guess you have to catch yourself. Somebody is criticizing something you're doing. Do you keep doing it or do you change the course of your actions because they said something to you? If you change the course of your actions because this person said something to you, shared their opinion, now you're being maneuvered by them and you are being impacted by them. But if you still are like, no, this is what I need to do, despite the hate or the criticism or the venom that you receive, you still stay on that path. That's how you know. So I think pay attention as an individual am I doing this because I believe this to be the right thing or am I doing this because outside people are putting

pressure on me to change my path and change who I am look it's it's good to get other people's opinions but you have to know whose opinion to listen to and when. So when someone gives me their opinion, solicited or unsolicited, I ask myself two things. Who is this person and why should I listen to them? And so if I can't come up with that, then I'm like, I shouldn't listen to this person. But it's having a conversation with yourself and practice. These are, these are all habits. You don't change overnight. So if you've been a person who has, your habits always been to let other people's opinions affect you. You talk negatively about yourself. You're intimidated by the things around

you. You're not a risk stake, risk taker. You're indecisive. You can't change overnight. But what you can do, you can say, this month, I'm not going to ask anybody for their opinion. I'm just going to spend like a month just making my own decisions. And you create and cultivate that habit. And then you move on to the next thing and the next thing. So that was not reacting. That was number two. Was there a third one that you shared there? I think I gave you like five. Okay. Just ready to chat.

I want to miss something there. I'm curious about the thing that you're most proud of that most people don't know about. Proud. Proud. Is it bad to say that I don't have anything? Huh? I don't know how to answer that. I don't have anything.

Like, I guess, I don't know. And I don't know if it's maybe I came from a place where it's about the team and it's more about humility and you're not supposed to stand out, even though now I'm on TV, right? Huge contradiction. I'm an author, I'm a book, I have a book. I don't know.

I mean, I haven't- Maybe something you've done with your team too or something in the past or something more recent. What am I proud? Maybe, I don't know may be proud is like not the right word for me because i'm i'm happy maybe because i don't let other people affect me especially when i know they're wrong that's good i that i will do i will i'm able to recognize and have a conversation and

and say is there truth to what they're saying and if there is what role did i play or is there no truth to what they're saying and what they're saying entirely about them their world their inadequacies because sometimes if you go back to asking people their opinion most people will be like don't do that don't quit your job don't this and what they're doing is they are imposing on you their fears their beliefs and all that stuff so how can i ask someone else to tell me how to what job to take how to live my life sure who to date who to marry when i'm hello i'm gonna be the one stuck with them they're gonna choose differently than i would like with my mom this is terrible example but like she'd be like isn't he cute i'm like oh who are you looking at you know when she was trying to get me to get married i'm like oh he's good looking she's like what's wrong with you look at it um so i could never ask her to tell me who i it's weird about because i had such a different

belief system my mom grew up poor in the village she my grandmother was illiterate they were they were dirt poor poverty in greece and i can't ask my mom certain things because she doesn't have the context to answer some of the questions that i have that are i grew up in a different environment in a different place a more complex world and so she can't she can't connect with that she couldn't connect with me going into the police department i might i should have just told i was gonna go sell drugs she would have that would have been at least more like oh okay i can see that um she couldn't connect with me going to become a secret service agent. When I left that to go into TV, she couldn't connect with that. She's like, what are

you doing? Why are you doing all these things? She didn't understand your perspective, yeah. She couldn't understand, but she also grew up very fear-based, poor, hungry. You have something great. Don't mess this up. And then I'm I'm like but there's something how did you shift that mindset if you grew up in an environment of a fear-based more protective maybe fear-based mother how did you shift from that and not have that it made me angrier I think it does one of two things you either become more afraid or the opposite or the opposite and I became the opposite I became more infuriated by it and I fought it harder and the more I was told no no the more I was like no one's I'm not gonna tell me no let the world tell me no and then I'm okay with it I'm gonna apply for this and let them laugh at me

let whatever is gonna happen happen I want to I want someone else to tell me no it can't come it can't come from me first it just can't because I won't be able to live with myself because I had done that before I think we all have to some degree and we're like why didn't I listen to myself

and I think that hurts more at least for me it hurt more from the police department to secret service to TV, media, book world at least for me, it hurt more. From the police department to Secret Service to TV, media, book world. Yeah. What were the habits that you learned along the way from being around the presidents and in that space?

Maybe the three or four habits for ultimate success, fulfillment, and happiness that you've seen, that you've applied or maybe you'd like to do more of based on everything you've witnessed? Do you know what? I'm actually going to answer the opposite because it just intuitively came to me. I actually, it was hard for me

because I had never been in the business of me. And I was always speaking up for I was represented the people I've represented the government I represented right and wrong that was different and then when I went into the business of me a whole other ballgame in TV entertainment oh my goodness I found myself using my interviewing assessing human behavior skills more in like my meetings with producers and agents. Are they telling me the truth or not? Oh, totally. I'm like, oh, he scratched his head when I asked that question. I was like,

sir, did you, so did you like me on that show? Oh yeah, it was great. You were good. So I found, I had a hard time shifting. And I think it's because you go from because, look, even though you're you're taught to be decisive and a free thinker, you're also there's a hierarchy and chain of command. The orders come from the top down. And now what I found myself doing is thinking my agents and my managers were like my supervisors. Thinking my agents and my managers were like my supervisors. And I kind of got stuck in that place. So I had to learn and be like, no, I need to speak up for myself. And I need to say, no, I don't want this.

No, I don't agree with this. Even though I always had it. But I don't know, Louis, I had a hard time. And I don't know you. Did you? I mean, you're in this industry. Was it hard for you when you went from playing football to being the business of you? Well, in the sports world,

I was really good at learning how to set goals for myself. And I worked on me to become a better athlete every day. So it was always physical, mental, visualizing, and I was practicing different habits to improve and to gain the success I wanted as an athlete. So I felt like I had an advantage going into the business world because I was very coachable. I was already like, let me find the best mentors and coaches because they have the answers. I don't know what I'm doing. Tell me what to do. I'm going to go work really hard for six months and I'll come back and show you what I did. And then give me some feedback. And let me figure out, you want me to read this book? You want me to do

this? Okay, I'll learn, learn, learn, develop skills, follow routines and see what works for me. So I would try and try and try a lot of things. And if it got me the results, great. Did it also bring me fulfillment? No. Okay, what do I need to do for that? But sports really helped me develop habits and a mindset. Because it was an environment of failure every moment. You're dropping a ball. You're missing a shot. Someone steals the ball from you, whatever.

You're failing. So you have to learn constantly if you want to improve. I think, you know, now that you said that, I think what habit I took then was my ability to not get my feelings hurt. That's a good habit. So in the service, like they didn't sugarcoat anything like, hey, you know, that last that last advance you did, you know, that part where the president got knocked down. Yeah. You know, we just appreciate if you just put better bike racks up and secure it a little better. I'd be like, why wasn't that secure? That's not going to happen again. You're demoted. You've got a week of midnights or whatever, or, you know, give me 50 pushups if it was training. And so I liked that. It was very direct, which is why I think we're both instrumental.

It's just like, tell me what I need. I don't need the whole story. I don't need the sugar coating. Tell me what I need. I don't need the whole story. I don't need the sugar coating. Tell me what I need to do to be better. And in fact, even with the one thing I do with any project I have, my agents, my executive producers, any project I'm on, my editor for my book or my agent, I don't need you to, you're not going to hurt my feelings. Right.

Is it good or not? Yeah, tell me. Just tell me if it's good. If it sucks, say, Evie, it sucks, but just tell me why so I can fix it. This sucks. This is why. You did not do a good job at this. This is why.

I can't be better if you're so worried about hurting my feelings, which I think in this industry, people don't give it to you. I remember I started doing the news, and after every news thing, it's like, you were great. You were great. I was like, I can't be great every single time. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Give them some feedback. So I had to pull one of the producers aside, and I said, please tell me what I can do better.

I don't want you to tell me I'm great. I'm not going to get better if you don't tell me stop using your hands so much on camera or, you know, don't curse. I don't know. Sure, sure. Whatever it is. Give me good feedback. Give me feedback. So I don't know. Sure, sure. Whatever it is. Give me good feedback. Give me feedback. So I definitely got that.

I don't, nothing hurts my feelings when it comes to that. Tell me I suck. Tell me why so I can fix it. Yeah. Or maybe your husband said that. It might hurt your feelings. He does that. He does that.

He's just like, let me sit you down. And he goes straight to it. He's like, really? Actually, when I began doing television, he would would you know, I had a great support system He would text me during commercial break sit up your slouching fix your hair. Who did your makeup today? Like it that eyeliner is crazy. What are you wearing too many stripes? I mean he would Critique me so that I could be better. And I was never pissed. Never.

I'm like, watch me. Tell me what I'm doing right. Oh, yeah, that outfit didn't work. Oh, who did your hair? Don't do that again. But that was because he wanted me to be better. And because you asked for it, too. I asked for it.

I don't know if I always ask for it. Sometimes it's unsolicited. But I knew what he was doing and why. Whereas I think a lot of folks get their feelings hurt. So I think with our backgrounds, there's no time for that. Let's get some results. Let's go. And I think it's like, just tell me how to be great.

I don't need you to. My feelings are fine. My feelings will hurt when I fail at this and I don't get the job or they replace me with somebody else to host or whatever, produce or whatever. Yes. That's good. I love this. You've got an amazing book called Becoming Bulletproof, Protect Yourself, Read People, Influence Situations, and Live Fearlessly that I want people to check out. I believe that life is a game of enrollment and we're either enrolling people in something or they're enrolling us. And it's all about influencing persuasion in an ethical way, but we're always in an enrollment environment.

Convincing people in something or unconvincing them in something. And so this book is going to help people protect themselves if someone's doing something harmful. It's going to help them read people and understand people and influence people in a more positive way. And I love all the strategies and techniques you've given today. This is really inspiring. I can follow you also all over social media, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. Where do you hang out the most? New York City. Although I love the- Which social media do you hang out the most? Which platform are you on the most?

I think Instagram. I'm on Instagram, but I'm trying to get into TikTok. I'm struggling. Oh, all right. Are you on it? Of course I'm on it. I got to learn. I need help. You do great.

You do great on there. I don't know how to use it. I need help. I'll show you a couple of accounts that have blown up kind of in your space that I think we do really well at. If you just look at some of the stuff they do. I'll text you some of those accounts. I'd love that.

I'd love that. But Instagram, right? Instagram, Twitter, Facebook. And it's all your name. It's all my name, common spelling. Gotcha. There we go. I've got a couple of final questions for you.

Yes. This is called the three truths. It's a hypothetical question. Oh, I'm nervous. Imagine your last day on earth many years away from now. Okay. And you've got to accomplish everything you want to accomplish. All your dreams come true.

Everything you want to do, it happens. Okay. But for whatever reason, you've got to take all of your work with you. Your written work, your books, your audio, this interview, it's all going to go with you to the next place, wherever you go. You've got to take everything with you. Your written work, your books, your audio, this interview, it's all going to go with you to the next place, wherever you go. You got to take everything with you. So no one has access to your content anymore or a recording of you anymore or your information. But you get a piece of paper and a pen and you get to write down three lessons you've learned from your life that you'd want to share with the world. I call it the three truths. What would you say would be your three truths that you would share with everyone?

Do the right thing, even when it's not the most popular thing to do. That would be a huge, because sometimes you're doing the right thing and everybody around you is telling you, you're wrong, you're this, you're that. And it's like, if you know it to be the right thing, do it. That's not easy. Three things that I would leave behind, right? I would...

Number two? Say it again. I want to hear it again. This is all you have to leave behind. Lessons that you've learned from your life. Lessons. I call them three truths. Do the right thing, even when it's not popular.

Make your own decisions. Fail as much as possible. Because the more you fail, it means the more you're doing and the more you're putting yourself out there you don't fail it means you're not doing anything that's true yeah oh that was deep it's good i like this i want to acknowledge you for a moment uh the fact that you've gone through these different stages of your life and done the right thing even when it's not popular try you try you've tried I don't want to put on. You've tried to.

I might have had a little bit of Lewis in me too growing up. I'm not going to. I'm far from perfect. I will say that. Well, I acknowledge you for being in the industry and the level of service that you've had for trying to do the right thing, trying to help people make better decisions, having justice where justice is needed, and being a force for good. You've shown as a force for good for many, many years in your level of service. So

I really acknowledge you for showing up. And then also moving into the next stage of your life and showing up in a different way to serve people with this type of information to help people, to spread the knowledge that you've learned in these different environments. So I really acknowledge you for the gift that you are, for showing up, for learning, for failing, for growing, and all the stuff that you're doing. It's really inspiring. Thank you.

I appreciate you saying that. Of course, of course, yeah. I feel the same way. I walked in, I saw School of Greatness. I was like, ooh, I am in the right place. That's it. It's not the school of average. Okay, final question for you.

I want people to get the book, follow you on social media but the final is there anything else we want to mention no man you've hit me hard I feel like I've never been interviewed

this time how's it it's a friendly interview you know friendly interrogation it is no I love it

this is it's nice because you're if I can flip it on you now you're a thoughtful interviewer it's a conversation it's not an interview yeah

you're not just like banging the questions out like you really put your thought and you're really trying to get into something deep we're not it's not often like that yeah and i i appreciate what you do it's like trying to teach people and it's like what i try to do with the book i was like what can i share with people that i learned that will be helpful to them? And how can you package it and deliver it in a way to people so it's digestible? Like, how do you help try to make people's lives? And I love your honesty in that you're like, I'm not perfect and I'm not preaching. Because it's like, and that's what you want to make sure. I'm not preaching.

I just, this is what I've learned. I hope it helps you. Because it helped me. It's still helping me. Right, right. Love it. Final question. What's your definition of greatness?

Trying to help people and protect people. Yeah. Helping and protect people. I think we are very like mind my own business, me, me, me, just me. And we've lost that ability to protect. And I think maybe it goes back to what I did. I will protect you. I may not know you, but I will protect you.

I will try to help you. I think that's greatness, helping people, even maybe when it's not to your benefit sometimes. Abby, thank you so much. Appreciate it. Thank you. Amazing. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Thank you. Amazing. Thank you so much for listening to this episode.

I hope you enjoyed it. If you did, make sure to share this with someone that you think would be inspired by this wisdom in Evie's story. And if you haven't subscribed yet to the School of Greatness, then what are you waiting for? Just go to Apple Podcasts right now,

type in School of Greatness, click on the subscribe button right there and leave us a rating or review and let us know what you enjoyed most from this specific episode in that review section as well as share this with a few friends that you think would be inspired by this lewishouse.com slash 1092 to send them to the show notes and all the other stuff that we talk about in this episode or just copy and paste the link wherever you're listening to this and share this out with some friends post it on social media.

Make sure to tag me and Evie as well so we know who's listening and what you liked about this. And if you haven't yet texted me, I want you to text me right now. Text the word podcast to 614-350-3960. If you want to get on my secret and special texting communication list where I send out positive inspirational messages every single week and other good stuff behind the scenes. list where I send out positive inspirational messages every single week and other good stuff behind the scenes. So make sure to text me the word podcast right now to 614-350-3960. And I want to leave you with this quote from John F. Kennedy, who said, let us never negotiate out of fear, but let us never fear to negotiate.

Oh, I love this episode. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. And I want to remind you, if no one's told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy and you matter. So grateful for you. And you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.