The School of Greatness - How To Create Boundaries With A Narcissist w/Dr. Ramani Durvasula (PART 2) EP 1196

Episode Date: December 1, 2021

Today’s guest is Dr. Ramani Durvasula. She’s a licensed clinical psychologist and Professor of Psychology at California State University in Los Angeles. The focus of Dr. Ramani’s clinical, academic and consultative work is the cause and impact of narcissism and high-conflict, entitled, antagonistic personality styles on human relationships, mental health, and societal expectations. She’s also the best-selling author of “Don’t You Know Who I Am?”: How to Stay Sane in the Era of Narcissism, Entitlement and Incivility. This is a topic that truly fascinated me so much that I split this episode into two parts! Make sure to listen to part 1 by going to www.lewishowes.com/1195In this episode we discuss the biggest misconceptions about narcissists, the essential components of every healthy relationship, the red flags to watch out for in your own relationships, the difference between narcissistic personality disorder and narcissistic personality traits, the key to loving yourself in a more fulfilling way, how to create boundaries with a narcissist, and so much more!For more go to - www.lewishowes.com/1196Read Dr. Ramani's books - https://www.amazon.com/Dont-You-Know-Who-Entitlement/dp/1682617521 & https://www.amazon.com/Should-Stay-Surviving-Narcissistic-Relationship/dp/1618688782Check out her website - http://doctor-ramani.com/The Power of Erotic Intelligence with Esther Perel: https://link.chtbl.com/732-podFind Lasting Love with Matthew Hussey: https://link.chtbl.com/811-pod 

This is episode number 1196 with Dr. Ramani Dharvasula, part two. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Welcome back, my friend. We had such a massive response to our initial episode with Dr. Ramani Devasula, and I wanted to unpack this even more.

So we made this two parts. We dove in deeper. And if you didn't hear part one yet, check it out after this one. Dr. Romney is a licensed clinical psychologist and a professor of psychology at California State University in Los Angeles. She's also the best selling author of Don't You Know Who I Am? How to Stay Sane in the Era of Narcissism, Entitlement and Incivility. Again, this is a topic that has truly fascinated me, so make sure to check out part one.

You can go to the previous episode on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you're listening, or go to the link lewishouse.com slash 1195 to listen to that as well. In this episode, we discuss the biggest misconceptions about narcissists, the essential components of every healthy relationship, the red flags to watch out for

in your own relationships, the difference between narcissistic personality disorder and narcissistic personality traits, the key to loving yourself in a more fulfilling way, how to create boundaries with a narcissist, and this is fascinating, and so many more things. Again, if you're finding value out of this at any moment, make sure to share this link with friends, family, post it on social media. I had a woman reach out to me and say, wow, I sent this to my mother and I realized I'm starting to heal so much because my father was a narcissist and I wasn't even aware of it until I can listen to this episode now and really unpack a lot of this. So I'm assuming someone in your life was or is a narcissist and hopefully this will support you in navigating it so you don't feel drained. You don't feel like you're lost in this relationship and confused anymore.

So hopefully this gives you some clarity and some peace of mind. And a quick reminder, if this is your first time here, we'd love for you to click subscribe over on Apple Podcasts right now or on Spotify and leave us your feedback. Leave us your thoughts on how this influence and impacted you by leaving a review at the end of this episode. And I want to give a shout out to the fan of the week from Nick Chelson, who said, One of my new favorites. I just started listening to The School of Greatness this week, and it's already one of my new favorites. Lewis has a great variety of guests and asks great questions.

10 out of 10, I would recommend. So, Nick, thank you for being the fan of the week. And again, if you guys want a chance to be shouted out on the podcast as a fan of the week, then leave us a review over on Apple Podcasts right now. Okay, excited about this one. In just a moment, the one and only Dr. Ramani Durvasula. What's the biggest misconceptions about a narcissist? That they love themselves. They don't love themselves? Oh, hell no. It's self-loathing. This is a disorder of self-loathing. All that inadequacy and ugly insecurity. They hate themselves. But then they put it on other people.

They put it, they project it onto other people. You're a horrible, lying, disgusting person. You make me sick. Oh my gosh. They're talking about themselves.

Oh my gosh. Sometimes you just want to give them a hug. So narcissists are miserable. They're miserable miserable it's awful it's i actually say that the compassion we can find in ourselves is people like i want to get revenge on them i say you don't have to they have to keep being them they have to live with the universe wins on that one like they have to keep being them it is a imagine every day you're comparing yourself to everyone you're comparing yourself to everyone. You're thinking, they have that and they have that.

How come I don't have this and how come this? And they're constantly anxious. They're constantly angry. They constantly feel like a victim. They feel like everyone is out to get them. That's a very difficult way to live. Their nervous system must be always heightened too. Kind of, kind of.

Yeah, different than their psychopathic cousins there. Who doesn't feel it, yeah. Yeah, but narcissists really, really, it's a very uncomfortable way to live because you always feel like, they always feel like they're getting the short end of the stick. And so what are the signs then if you're a kid and you've thought one thing about your parents,

but all of a sudden you're starting to see like, oh, maybe they, I have a parent who's narcissistic. What would you say are the main signs if a parent for a kid would be narcissistic i don't think when you let's say a child is anyone under 13 i don't even think kids start understanding that their parents are messed up until they're in around middle school or high school um selfishness um inattentive real inattentiveness dismiss Dismissiveness. Dismissiveness. Oh man. Devaluation of their emotions, shaming them, humiliating them, expecting them to be like them,

devaluing them if they don't excel at the things they want. What do you mean you don't want to go to Harvard? Or like, ugh, you want to go to that college? Like any kind of contemptuous dismissiveness of their children, that's all narcissistic parent behavior. Wow. Rage, rage is a big one. And I, that's all narcissistic parent behavior. Wow. Rage, rage is a big one.

And I think that's probably the one my clients have brought in. Anger. Anger, but rage. Like that walking on eggshells. If anyone says to me, I felt like I was always walking on eggshells around my parent,

probably dealing with an antagonistic, a narcissistic parent. Yeah, I think I was telling you beforehand, I felt that for a part of my life and then things started to shift. But I've definitely walked on eggshells for many relationships in the past, which makes me be like, why did I jump into different relationships where I felt that way? Which maybe I hadn't learned to heal the past yet or I hadn't learned to...

But you didn't jump into a relationship where you walked on eggshells. You didn't feel that in the beginning. But it was like six to twelve months later when i was justified then i justified oh let's just get back to where it was one of the great your i would say your greatest vulnerability quite frankly to narcissistic relationship is your history as an athlete athletes are actually at not only great risk of being narcissistic but for falling for narcissists why is that a lot of that is because for any gifted athlete all you needed to do was work harder you just had to go to the gym or had to run or do whatever whatever it was you needed to do it just meant more reps yes there was always a way to make it better you're gonna you're gonna do the sunday workout you're gonna go to the gym at four in the morning right and so the more in you

had this belief you were you got better and you were in control so the belief is you could extend that to anyone i just gotta talk talk to them harder i'm gonna i'm gonna be more clear i'm gonna make this work more loving everything becomes a workout oh my gosh this is what i did in the last 10 years in every relationship for the last 10 years and I remember just being like it would never felt enough and it was always draining to give it was never enough what I gave there was always something wrong with me there's always something to pick at yeah and they never wanted to go to therapy with me I was it was funny because I was like what man you know I don't generalize but I was like I'm a guy who wants to go to therapy and get feedback from my like I'm not perfect give me feedback tell me how to improve because I'm an athlete and I'm a guy who wants to go to therapy and get feedback from my, like, I'm not perfect.

Give me feedback. Tell me how to improve because I'm an athlete. And I'm like, I want to improve. And they never wanted to. And I was just like, I think women would kill for this, you know, for a guy who wanted to go to therapy with them. Not a narcissistic woman. Oh my gosh.

But that idea of surrender is kind of actually the opposite of what an athlete is conditioned to become, right? And that's really the core of the narcissistic relationship. It's a sense of surrender. I'm not engaging with this. I'm not doing this. It doesn't work. And then you just fold it and step away. No, it was more like, I want to make this work. What can I do to make it better? How can I improve? Tell me what I can do. I'm here. I'll support. I'll do this. And then it just, it drains your energy. Athletes, entrepreneurs are at risk. Anyone who's a doer and it it just it drains your energy athletes entrepreneurs are Anyone who's a doer and it's worked for them

There's fruit it wasn't until I really started lifting the veil with my therapist arse about is like I started to really realize like okay I don't need to keep working working working You talked about this one in a recent video is like the marriage and relationships should be hard work is kind of the narrative and when I realized like it shouldn't feel like, it should feel like commitment and there's attention and presence, but it shouldn't feel like this draining hard work. No, no.

Otherwise, I'd rather be single if that's the way it is. Exactly. And I think that that, and I have to tell you, a lot of people have had a lot of harm done to them in therapy where therapists say to them, it's hard work. Relationships are hard work. No, no, no, no, no. lot of harm done to them in therapy where therapists say to them, It's hard work. Relationships are hard work.

No, no, no, no, no. It's not. I mean, yeah, maybe having to say no, like having to sit through a football game you don't want to watch. I don't know if that's hard work because they sat and watched your French film with you. It's just an uncomfortable moment. I'm just going to read my book while you watch a football game. Yeah, yeah. We're good.

Yeah, that's fine. I can show up for a few hours. That's not hard work. Yeah. And the other person's kind, right? Yeah, yeah. We're good. Yeah, that's fine. I can show up for a few hours. That's not hard work. Yeah. Hard, you know, and the other person's kind, right? Again, every healthy relationship, every healthy relationship has the same core ingredients.

Kindness, compassion, patience, mutuality of regard, reciprocity, respect. Yeah. Every single one. And as long as you got that. Flexibility. Flexibility, no narcissistic relationship has even one of those ingredients.

That's why they don't work. They don't work. So they're always going to be hard work because you have not one of the essential ingredients. Like you're trying to bake a cake without flour, eggs, or sugar. Good luck with that. How do you know when you're entering a new relationship

the person is not a narcissist? Like maybe you've been in a narcissistic relationship or your parent was or whatever it is. And you have some PTS from those experiences. And you feel like, well, I'm supposed to be walking in eggshells, but I don't need to. It's kind of healthy. Like, is the shoe going to drop? Like when you know the person isn't a narcissist, how long does that take to find out? About the same amount of time it takes

to discover that they are, in the sense that, the difference is narcissists actually, there's red flags, right? I call these green flags. Green flags mean go. And green flags are things like, watch the person, watch how the person behaves under conditions of stress.

So let's say that you're running late to the airport. Great, that's a great example of a stress, right? How are they acting? And are they, you know, they're saying, oh, I'm a little worried about this, but we're gonna make it work. And listen, what's the worst that's gonna happen? We'll get rebooked.

And they're calm and like, you know, listen, I'm just glad to be here with you. Like, we'll figure it out. To make the most of the moment. Yeah, we'll go to an airport hotel, we'll be up to a friend, but we're gonna be fine. A narcissist when they're running late to the airport? Oh, no.

No, no, no. What happens? And it's just, I'm not going to curse. It's chaos and stress and exhausting. But it's chaos, stress, accusations. This is your fault. Oh, my gosh. Entitlement.

Let me speak to the manager. Get me on that plane. Get that plane back to the gate. Oh, my gosh. Like that's the narcissist, right? Whereas with somebody you watch them and it doesn't have to be something as dramatic as the airport it could be even something like hey i noticed you've been working late how about i make some dinner so it's the

noticing it's the presence it's the mindfulness it's the willingness to be flexible and make compromise when it's needed um to meet you halfway, to listen to you. And more than anything is to also see the growth potential in you. So not to be threatened by your own success. So if you go to this person and you're like, hey, you know what? I got this totally cool new opportunity. And the healthy person says, that is amazing. You have worked your whole life. I saw this in you. What can we do to make this work for you whereas everybody else and not just narcissists but insecure people will say oh I guess that's just going to mean more time away and you're going to be traveling a lot there's going to be a lot of

women on the road and you're like oh my gosh they just got the job of their dreams oh my gosh bringing back so many members to me that's the key key. And I'm a big believer that, you know, there's actually something, I'm going a little off topic, but you're an off topic guy. You can handle it. I love it. There's something called the Michelangelo phenomenon. One person in the relationship sees the absolute potential in the other in such a way that they say, what do we need to do to get you to your dream? Like, do we need to, should we, like should we take a second on the house?

Should we cut back? You know, should we move closer in? Like, because I see, or you know what, it could be as simple as they eat a cake that their partner made and said, okay, this is the best cake I've ever had. Have you ever thought of making this into a business? Or a partner of yours might have said,

you asked the most amazing questions You need a podcast like it's seeing that something bigger in the person. That's a good thing. That's that's the Michelangelo phenomenon That's everything. That's a good thing It's the best thing and very few relationships get that because what you've got to do is that person who's saying go be your best you Is secure enough to say i'm not going to lose you right like i see all the good in you yeah and that and i want the best for you and i want the best for you and i believe in you and i'm here with you and and that might even mean the person encouraging you might have to make sacrifice things like you know i know that you're gonna

have to go take this course for six months and i may not see you and that's okay because this is our future together that's the Michelangelo phenomenon never what's the opposite narcissistic relationship and in the previous I would say ten years of my relationships I think I was just really good at choosing specific people because I was always like I always saw the masterpiece I said I said your masterpiece, I always saw the masterpiece. I said, you're a masterpiece, and I can see what's possible for you with all these skills and gifts. But there was like some insecurities with some of them,

not all of them. And they never were able to see it within themselves. They weren't able to see it. And then I remember when I would accomplish something big in some of these relationships, not all of them, it was almost like they would get depressed or sad and say, oh, and then make it about what like they would get depressed or sad and say, oh, and then make it about what they're lacking and what they don't have and wanting to put their

intention back on them. I remember I got an email for a year. I was training to become, to make the USA national team. It was a dream of mine to go to the Olympics and make the USA national team for a sport called team handball. It's a big sport in Europe, not that big in USA. I remember getting an email and literally almost in tears that I was selected for the USA team. And it was just like a dream for a couple years of a journey. This was 10 years ago. And I remember I showed it to my girlfriend at the time.

I go, I just got called up on the national team. And I'm like getting kind of emotional, just chills now, back in that moment. And she didn't congratulate me, she just kind of went back into, God, I wish I was doing what I wanted to do, and I wish there was this, and I was just like, what? Bingo, right there. Okay, well, yeah, let me come back and help you.

I kind of put my attention back on like, you know, you're gonna get these things going, and you know, I'm here for you. But it's like this diminishing, I had this happen at one of my big events one time, I host this annual event called the Summit of Greatness. And a relationship at the time made it all about them at the event,

that I wasn't there for them because the attention was on me and people were coming up to me and I was like, this is something I've been working all year to host. And then I said, you know what, let me pause on my event for two hours to give the attention to this person. And I was always trying to see the masterpiece.

But it's like, I don't know. I'm like, you're having so many realizations for me. Right, yeah. I mean, but that's the idea that that ego, and it's interesting, not everyone who's not capable of this sort of Michelangelo phenomenon in a relationship is a narcissist by any stretch.

They may just have more of the low-grade insecurity that so many people are plagued by. All insecurity doesn't mean narcissism. Insecurity paired with all this entitlement and lack of empathy and all of that is the problem. It's so unfortunate because it is there then you get, we're talking about self-actualization for the individual. I think there can even be actualization in relationships where two people, like they really see, they see the greatness in each other.

It can't just be you the only one seeing the masterpiece. They have to see the masterpiece in you. Because it's just draining. Yeah. If it's just one person, right? It's also a mirror that's not reflecting back at you. So what I'm hearing you say, the ultimate experiment in a relationship is when both parties are seeing the masterpiece in each other.

And are supportive of each other. And when one is succeeding, the person I'm with right now, she's incredible. She's just a walking success. Everything she does is just successful. I'm so happy for her. I want her to succeed. I'm like, this is amazing. Let's celebrate you.

And she's happy for you. She's happy for me. It want her to succeed. I'm like, this is amazing. Let's celebrate you. And she's happy for you. She's happy for me. It has to be a two-way street. She admires the work I'm doing. She admires the mission we're on to help people. And she's like, what can I do to support you? It feels interesting. I mean, it feels beautiful.

It is beautiful. I mean, that's the key, though. Because that ability to sort of co-locate, again, to have that co-located growth, that Michelangelo, if you will. In essence, you're realizing the statue from the raw piece of marble every day, and you're both sculpting that for the other. But that's, again, no narcissistic relationship is like that. And with a narcissistic relationship, it's really the them show. Like, everyone is just sort of in the audience watching them and celebrating them. relationship is like that. And with a narcissistic relationship, it's really the them show. Like everyone is just sort of in the audience watching them and celebrating them. So they can be the only

great one in a relationship. Really? Is it possible that two narcissists would be in a relationship together? I actually love when that happens because it kind of gets them out of the water supply for everybody else. Here's what it is. They're very volatile relationships. They're very superficial relationships. A lot of people who are power couples, that's sometimes what you're seeing, like this kind of, they're all about the, they're only about the aspiration. They're not about the empathy. But in any relationship of two narcissists, as soon as somebody doesn't stay in their

lane. So let's say one classical trope of two narcissists in a relationship. One partner, very wealthy, very powerful, very successful. The other one, very beautiful, looks good, goes places with this one, looks good with them. It all looks good together, right? They compliment each other. Ish, compliments is a strong word. The first time this one, though, might look someplace else because this one's

a narcissist person this person the powerful one it's narcissistic may notice someone else this person gonna blow up because they're they're doing their beautiful thing full time and they're like how can someone be more beautiful looking at me obsessive then you're not giving me all the attention lots of jealousy lots of volatility lots of meaning lots of egocentricity lots of volatility, lots of meaning, lots of egocentricity, lots of social media. It's like, I'm so blessed. Hashtag love my person. Hashtag best relationship ever. I mean, I laugh when I see that because I'm like, oh, yeah, there we go. You know, another super narcissistic relationship where it's all about advertising the relationship. But it's very superficial, very volatile, no empathy. There's no depth to the intimacy.

It's almost transactional that that's what happens when two narcissists get together. I honestly would be fine with all the narcissists pairing up like Noah's Ark as long as none of them have kids. Because that's a real number on the kids. You're messed. You're traumatized. It's a really empty way to grow up. Those kids that grow up, they either become incredibly anxious as adults or they become narcissistic as adults. It's not a good look.

I don't know if I'm inspired by this conversation or depressed. What's the percentage of people in the world who are narcissists? Do we have that even? Okay, so here's where it gets interesting. So let's start with something we haven't talked about yet So they give me a way to talk about this a lot of people use the word narcissistic for the term narcissistic personality disorder I actually think it's phenomenal that you haven't been using it because it's a mistake to use that languaging and I'll tell you why narcissistic personality disorder, okay, and

PD so lots of people out there will say oh I'm in this relationship or I've got this boss and they have narcissistic personality disorder. I'm always like, slow down sister. Okay. Because narcissistic personality disorder, like all diagnoses require a full workup, a lengthy clinical interview. It even takes me, I'm going to be honest with you. If I have a client in my office, it usually takes me four to six sessions to be confident that that's what I'm dealing with with a disorder. Because you could have narcissistic personality traits correct different than it's very different and it gets into the weeds in terms of diagnostic stuff you don't want to

it could be like more like when I'm triggered I have narcissistic traits as opposed to it's more complex than that because it's that in order to give someone a diagnosis in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, the DSM, in order to give someone a diagnosis, that person who is showing the symptoms has to either be uncomfortable themselves, like we call it subjective distress. So depressed people are like, they're like, I'm miserable. I can't, I'm miserable. I'm sad all the time. I can't get out of bed.

That's subjective distress. Or they have to have something called social and occupational impairment, meaning that the symptoms are getting in the way of their lives in a way that they're aware of, right? It's causing problems for them. Where this gets dicey with narcissistic personality is that, first of all, a lot of narcissists are on top of the world. They think their lives are great. They walk around saying, I'm the one, I'm the guy, I narcissists are on top of the world. They think their lives are great.

They walk around saying, I'm the one, I'm the guy. I'm number one, I'm the best, look how great I am. I've got money, I've got success, I've got the girl, whatever it is, it's working for me. So everything's working for them. So that's no subjective distress. Social and occupational impairment. Now, in some cases they may be having trouble at work

and then yeah, sure, they'll meet that criterion. But for a lot of folks just walking around in the street, they're making bank at work. They got a partner and a side piece, like everything's working out for them. So they don't even think they're having that impairment. But what they're doing is they're blowing up other people's lives. We as therapists cannot issue a diagnosis of social... We can't say that they have social and occupational impairment because someone else is bothered by them. Make sense? It has to be

that the person is saying, I'm not going to work on time or I got a DUI. Those are examples of social and occupational impairment or behavioral impairment. I personally think they need to get rid of the diagnosis. I think it's worth nothing. It's a diagnosis with no treatment. So why would you have a disease that you can't treat? There's no point to that. So let's, okay, so now let's go to the numbers.

Because the epidemiological studies are studies that tell us the number of people or the percentage of people who have a given mental illness, a given disorder. Gotcha. or the percentage of people who have a given mental illness, a given disorder. Okay, gotcha. So the epidemiology statistics on narcissistic personality disorder put the rate somewhere between one and 6%, okay? That's people who are diagnosed with a disorder. Diagnosed with this. Okay, so they've gone into research studies.

But most people aren't diagnosed because they would never come in and do these sessions. So the million dollar question. How many do you think? The million dollar question. How many do you think it is? This is my number. This is the Dr. Romney number. Okay, I'm going with 20 to 25%. Oh, of the world or like US or?

The world, one in five to one in four. You think it's narcissistic. One in five is probably, and I'm saying adults. Let's take the kids out, okay? So 18 and above, 20%. That would make it's narcissistic. And so one in five is probably, and I'm saying adults, let's take the kids out, okay? So 18 and above, 20%. That would make it one in five. And I would tell you in a major metro like LA, I'm going to 25%. I think that just the pressures of the city, especially in New York, LA, LA being an entertainment

city, the nature that sort of the, it's a company town and the business of the town is very superficial and very validation seeking so i'd say 25 here so that's one in five so buddy if you know five people one of them's narcissistic when do you know someone is not a narcissist what are the the qualities that they possess the real qualities it's it's empathy kindness respect flexibility self-awareness kindness, respect, flexibility, self-awareness, the capacity to reflect on their impact on other people, emotional regulation, managing.

This is more of the emotional regulation, like managing negative states like frustration and disappointment, genuine curiosity about others, setting goals from an internal space rather than what they think the world expects of them. That's a beautiful one, yeah. Having a strong sense of identity. A sense of who they are. Having a solid sense of values.

Conscientiousness. Agreeableness. These are the things that make a person not narcissistic. It's nice to be around those type of people. Oh, they're so good. And I feel blessed. These are the things that make a person not narcissistic. It's nice to be around those type of people. Oh, they're so good. And I feel blessed. I have a fair number of those in my life.

I feel like I do too, yeah. But I'm very careful. Like I curate my world the way some people curate their closets. And I've made them as recently as this year I've let more than a few in. So it happens. You've let narcissistic friends in. Narcissistic people in, yeah. I'm getting, you know, and I got to tell you, it just means that people who've been through

what's called narcissistic abuse or all the negative psychological impacts of being in a narcissistic relationship. One thing I work with people on is just narrowing their social world. Like it's, it's unfortunate at one in five. What are the odds? Right? They're pretty darn good. You date five people, one of them.

And depending on what swimming pool you're pulling these people out of, it could be one in three. So even you, you've attracted people in your life. A hundred percent. And I know what my vulnerabilities are. I'm very aware of it. My personal vulnerabilities are things like I devalue myself. I feel like I'm not enough. Really?

I pity people kind of easily. And so narcissists actually are pitiful people. And that pity can sometimes drive me to say maybe I should try harder. So at this point in my life, I'm closed off in a way that actually sometimes makes me feel guilty. And I'm like, yeah, if that's the price of poker, I'm good. Like I don't, I've been through too many times at this rodeo that i don't want to do it so it's definitely my own lack of um valuing of myself is what's made me vulnerable to narcissism if i brought boiled it down to one simple thing is that i feel like i'm not good enough because i feel like i'm not good enough

i let those kinds of people in so what i I found, unfortunately, is that it's just better off to close the gates and not let anyone in. Unfortunately, yeah, that's kind of the downstream effect. Or, I mean, would you say the greatest defense against attracting narcissism is to fully love yourself? It's to fully love yourself, to be deeply authentic. I consider myself authentic-ish, authentic adjacent, but I know I've got a ways to go because I still struggle with the monkey on my back of feeling like I'm, I'm not enough kind of thing. Yeah. And I know that. And that's my work on my,

in my own therapy on that consistently. And, um, but it's a, I know where my barriers are. So anything that pings that it's, it's great. It's interesting interesting I've got my staff is fantastic I mean and they're much younger than me this is what's so remarkable about it they actually act like guard dogs they're like we feel like one's coming no and I'll be like I kind of feel bad for them like good for you go feel bad in another room we're not letting them in so they're they're I mean they're these two are gangster I mean they're the two most amazing young women yeah what's the key to learning how to love ourselves fully so that we don't so that when we see someone coming in we just say no we're okay we don't need

to let you into our life so let's go back to the Carl Rogers the humanist I was talking about before it's to lift the conditions of worth from our lives, that we are lovable and cherishable simply because we are. I mean, if we could get totally into a different conversation about we're all made of energy, who judges energy, right? Like, you know, we're all lovable because we're the stuff of life, you know, and that makes us beautiful and lovable. And so it's- Who said this? Carl Rogers talks about conditions of worth. Dr. Rom Romney says and many others I do believe say we're energy like who judges energy. It's like judging the Sun I guess we do like we were sunscreen. You're right But you know what? I mean like it's a these conditions of worth like

Whatever people say to themselves. I'm not attractive enough. I'm not smart enough pretty rich rich enough i'm not accomplished enough i'm not this enough i'm not that enough that those conditions of worth if i'm i would be lovable if as soon as you put love and if in the same sentence you're screwed wow so it's very much like dropping all that and saying you're lovable because you are everyone is lovable everyone is cherishable all of us not because somebody's more beautiful or somebody's more famous or somebody's more attractive it's not or rich or something like that but it's hard because we're given the message of you're better if you look this way act this way do this way live here drive this it's it's a lot to break out of and

so I think that, and those narratives even go deeper than materialism. It's almost like as a kid, many kids were taught, they almost felt like you grow up with a parent who's not attentive in any way or not interested of, well, I'm not, they're not paying attention because I'm not interesting. I'm not enough. And I get attention when I excel in something that they like and so let me do more of that I'll get more attention exactly and if I lose at that then they're not gonna love me That's exactly right So it all becomes like people think like if I do these things and I could be loved rather than you're just lovable

and so that's the That's where people most people lose the plot and and I think the other piece those people don't understand narcissism I think that a lot of those people don't understand narcissism. I think that a lot of people say, oh, come on, everyone can change or some, I just got to get to know them better. Or they don't really mean that. We enable it, we justify it. But if people really got to learn like, no, that's unacceptable. That tantrum they just threw, not okay. That entitled behavior, not okay. And honestly get to the point where I don't care why they're behaving like this, they're behaving like this. So how do you create boundaries with a narcissist? It's not easy. I mean, I think that

the narcissistic people, the key with a narcissistic person is to detect it early, set boundaries early, because then they get disinterested and they walk away. You're not an easy mark anymore. So charm and charisma come walking in the door. I think I'm the only person in the world who's telling people, if you meet someone charming and charismatic, run away. Like get away from them, this is dangerous.

But are there some people that are charming and charismatic who aren't narcissistic? Yeah, but I'm like, I'm all about throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Right, right, right, yeah. Yeah, but I'm like, I'm all about throwing the baby out with the bathwater at this point. Right, right, right, yeah. So, all out. So, it's a, because charming, charismatic people,

I would say that always make sure they have humility. There you go. If you have the humility back, then you're okay. That's the unicorn. That's the unicorn. That's when you're like, they're charming, and they're humble. And they're humble. They're all that, they're incredible, and they're like, listen're charming and they're humble. They're all that.

They're incredible. And they're like, listen, I'm great. Can you just tell me about you a little bit? Talk a little bit about you. That's a keeper in your life. Yeah, that's a keeper. Or you can see how they're talking to other people. They're interested in other people.

They're not talking down to people maybe because, let's say they're in a service position. They care. That evening, right? That they're not, and not in a smarmy, like, oh, the server's my best friend, but they're not like that. It's none of that. It's really like, oh, let me wait for the server to come along and see if I can get, or whatever. They're just really, they're present in a situation.

They're not elitist, they're not status conscious. status conscious that kind of humility you know that they don't brag you know that they're all that and they're not going on about how all that that they are that's cool they're not talking about oh let me tell you about my new this and my new that and this accomplishment and my no they're just they're actually able to be with you be present with you it's rare because again people who are that hyped up they're hyped up from all sides you have to be really resistant, be present with you. It's rare because again, people who are that hyped up, they're hyped up from all sides. You have to be really resistant, authentic, self-actualized to not drink the Kool-Aid.

Yeah. What else do we need to know about narcissists? Is there anything else you think that's important for us? I think that... One in five of your friends is a narcissist. I mean, again, if we're using this number of 20%, okay, which I don't think is a bad number, to be honest with you. I think that just, I mean, it's a spitball number. It's just sort of boiled up in this world and it may be a fervent myth. I don't know. It's hard to get

good data on this, right? You know, the assessment of narcissism is one of the hardest things in the business of measurement and psychology because who's going to be honest about it, right? There's all these back doors we try to do to figure it out. But I'd say the other things, let's talk a little bit about what happens to a person who's been in a relationship with a narcissist. Oh, tell me, please. Because I think that we've been talking, we've been so much focused on the narcissist. The question is, what if I've just been through this? Is there a sense of PTS that you you're gonna face a lot of pts

Yeah, you'll see it's a there's confusion self-doubt a sense of powerlessness helplessness sometimes even hopelessness Anxiety a lack of not feeling motivated anymore sort of sense of like I can't be bothered with life rumination, regret. Something we call euphoric recall. You remember the good parts of the relationship and say, why can't we have that part again? I'm like, well, no, because that part wasn't really real.

It wasn't real. It was like this explosive. When people have physical symptoms, they have trouble sleeping because of the rumination. They might find themselves engaging in less behaviors that are involved like self-care behaviors we call them like things like um working out or eating well or even taking their medications on time they just almost let themselves go because being in these relationships is just basically like completely being you know overwhelmed by them so people aren't in good shape when they're coming out of these relationships because they'll start beating themselves up. How could I stay in this?

What was I thinking? Well that's the worst part. It's the self blame and the self shame, because the self blame is this is my fault. I'm the one who stayed. I should have known that I'm, I'm, I'm an, and then I'm a fool. And then they, a lot of people go back. Right. So here, why? Because they think let's talk a little bit, I want my whiteboard. Yes. I got to use the whiteboard.

We can use the whiteboard. So here we go. So let's talk about the narcissistic relationship cycle. Okay. Okay. Step one is something called, I'll write it down, I'll lift it up. Love bombing. Okay.

Okay. Love bombing is that big, seductive, exciting experience that happens early in a relationship. We have a magical connection. Let's have a picnic on the beach. Wild and crazy sex. Texting for 12 hours straight. Good morning, princess. Good night, my darling. Let's take a vacation for our third date. I want you to meet all my friends I'm so into you let's move in after a month my lease is up love bombing it's exciting it's intoxicating it's seductive and what it does it's a narcissist ground game that's how they're able to get you to not notice all the red flags you're so focused on the ten dozen roses on your doorstep

that you're like getting or the unreal sex you're having or these amazing like constantly being these text messages or being going to san francisco on your fourth date you know and you're thinking like okay red what red flags i'm having this is incredible yeah the minute the narcissist knows they've got you when you kind of let down your guard because some people are like this seems too good to be true and then they're like okay i love you too i i'm boom that's the day something called devaluing starts okay now devaluing is characterized by invalidation, little digs. Like, oh gosh, you know, my ex-girlfriend could cook. Oh my gosh.

It's like the digs. It's little. It's subtle. You're like, where did this go? Like, where's this? Because it's not feeling so good. And people in devaluing are confused as heck. They're thinking, how do I get back here?

Now they start blaming themselves because it was this now it's this it must be me oh my gosh now then i just feel like you're going through my life right now okay we go to something called the discard now the discard is not always a breakup is this okay is this where like they won't speak to you for two weeks? It's the silent treatment. It's the deeper level manipulation. It could be infidelity. It could be significant lying. It could be even sometimes even the other person leaves the relationship at this point, like the not narcissistic person. Like I'm out. I'm out. I can't do this and then comes a phase oh my god old hoovering hoovering is when the narcissist tries to suck you back in

they don't like to lose and in the majority of cases once after the discard your move you back try to woo you back love bombing part two now love bombing part two is never as heavy as love bombing part one it's always love bombing light the second time around but it'll be like seductive it's a maybe what was i thinking you're the best thing that ever happened to me this could be because they cheated on you right and they say things like you're so much better and you know what people fall for that because that's that triangulation dynamic that idea very edible that you're the favored child that you're the favored one and the hoovering is choosing you then in the part of the hoovering is a dynamic called you're gonna love this one is my guess after what the way you've

been putting future faking okay future faking is uh, as soon as this deadline is done, we're going to, or I'm going to get therapy, or I know, let established and now you're 50 and you don't have kids or we're gonna you know we're gonna definitely move closer to your parents i know we had talked about moving back there and i know you said there are some better opportunities for you years you're waiting or i'm gonna get into therapy i'm gonna work on these anger issues and then if you push it god you know what you're really impatient you're like you are not a nice person just see what i'm going through my life and i need time and yeah that's the cycle of every narcissistic relationship not everybody gets hoovered okay sometimes the narcissist moves into something else and then they they're done and so people sometimes feel bad if they're not hoovered they're like what's wrong with me it doesn't always happen and consider yourself lucky i always say the lucky are not hoovered because

then it goes back to it goes the cycle goes again and again and again so what is hoovering again hoovering is when they try to woo you back in sight they bring you back they bring you back in and they'll do that if let's say they're the one who left you okay and you finally start getting your life in order and maybe you're dating someone else and they find out that's when they want you back. They just want to mess your stuff up. Or you're in a good place. They don't want you happy. You've got a job you want.

They don't want you happy. Why is that? They don't like losing. And they don't like the idea of anyone else winning. It's all about domination. Oh my gosh. So I tell people, like, maybe you can get a good trip to San Francisco and a couple of flowers and get out.

And then get out, yeah. Like before you get in too deep. But if that happens where they'll give you like a month or six weeks or two months of love bombing on you, and then you're like, you know what? I'm not in the right place, this isn't for me, like it's not you, it's me, I'm not ready, they're gonna get mad.

They're gonna get mad. So either way, once you get it, once you go on the first weekend love bomb extravaganza, you're- You're kind of sunk. Yeah, cause and they actually- You need to get out the end. Yeah, once you get it, once you go on the first weekend, love bomb extravaganza, you're kind of sunk. Yeah. Cause and they actually want to get out. You want to get out. Listen, here's an interesting tell on narcissistic people.

And it applies more in LA than in a place like New York. They, um, they, they drive really badly. They drive dangerously. They cut people off and they come up on their bumpers and they cut people off on the freeway. And that's actually been documented in research. So a narcissist is a bad driver. Dangerous driver. Not bad. Not like dumb driver. Fast, cut people off, Hong Kong, real lazy driver. Anything else we should talk about? Last thing. Yes, give it to me. Gaslighting. Oh, I wanted to ask that. I had a note here. Okay, so gaslighting is the word of our time. And if nothing else, I want, your podcast is so amazing that I want to make sure

that people get things right here. So what is gaslighting? Gaslighting is the denial of a person's reality and the taking a part of another person so that they have completely not only given up on their reality they've given up on themselves so let me say that in a little bit more of a clear way gaslighting is a grooming process it's not a one-off right so let's say a day like today we'd set up our shoot and everything and I would say and we we had our time we're gonna meet the I said, you never said we were meeting on that date. And you'd be like, what? And then you'd go back to your email and say, no, it's right there, right?

But for a minute, you might have doubted yourself. I don't have that much power to gaslight you because we don't really know each other. Maybe you trust me a little, but it would be enough to throw you off for a minute and say, did I not send that email right? And you catch yourself, okay? The reason it's called a grooming process is it happens over and over again. I never said that. I never did that. You're being too sensitive.

Stop making such a big deal about that. You really aren't committed to this relationship. And they keep saying things to you that are not your reality. So what do people do when they're gaslighted initially? They defend themselves. No, no, no. You did. You really did.

Like, you said that. Or, I'm not being too sensitive. And now you're getting more and more worked up, right? Yeah. And then, you know, they'll say things to you like, oh, yikes. Somebody is a little bit crazy. Like, have you seen a therapist? So now what are they doing?

Not only have they doubted your reality and you're a little off balance, then boom, they close it by saying there's something wrong with you and you start believing it. Many people are gaslighted. We'll start wondering, maybe I'm the narcissist. Maybe I have a mental illness. Maybe I need to get help. There's something wrong with me. And and at that point the gaslighter fully controls this person oh my gosh that's the process and so but they initially the gap the person who's being gaslighted has some level of trust in the gaslighter maybe they're in a new relationship together maybe this is a family member maybe it's a boss or a respected colleague you got to have a little of that from the jump there has to be some skin in the game for someone to be able to gaslight someone.

Then they're groomed. Now, let's say the first time someone gaslights you, say, no, here's the email. This is the time you said we're meeting, and don't ever do that to me again. The gaslighter's probably going to move on to a new target. Ooh, they'll stop with you. Yeah, because, yeah, so they'll say, like, this is not a fertile target. I'm going to move on to another one, right? But so early on when a person,

or a person says you're being too sensitive, say, no, that's my emotion. Don't you dare play judge and jury on my emotions. I'm sad right now. I'm going to stick with that. That's a good one. That's what I'm talking about, right? That's a good one.

So, and then the gas lighter will probably lose interest. And, but they'll always get their last dig in they'll say she's just a really difficult person so they'll still have to get their parting shot and say I I'll wear that as a badge of honor but you but just look how solid you have to be in yourself and understand gasoline in fact I'm doing a gas lighting seminar on Saturday literally three hours all gas lighting because that's how much people are confused by this. It happens at work. It happens in families.

It happens in intimate relationships. It happens from the world at large. Like, no, everyone can, the playing field's equal. And then the people are like, it can't be equal. It's like, it's gaslighting. So the first time you feel like someone's gaslighting you, what should you say? Without them saying, because I feel like this has happened to me in a previous relationship

where I'd be like, no, I never said that. And then it was like, they'd bring up three other things that were unrelated to try to confuse and be like, well, you this, this, this, this. And I'd be like, just focus on the one thing we're talking about. And so I have to go to, you know, go around all these other things and talk about them where I forget what we were talking about the first place that's like that all that's all again it's very exhausting let's just focus on this writing so a great example get what gaslighting thing that

people will do is they will say something like in a relationship and you know I am really uncomfortable with how much time you've been spending with that person. And there's been a lot of communication between the two of you. Like it doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel good to me. This feels shady. It feels like a boundary violation. Like this isn't okay. They'll hit back with, let's go back to when you were in college and you were, and you're like, wait, and then you know what I tell people? Have a whiteboard. Say, okay, I'm going to table that. We'll get to that.

Let's write that down. I don't want us to not talk about it. Let's go back to the original issue. So keep going back to the original thing. Go back to the original issue. Until they have a discussion and resolve. They'll get mad. And they won't discuss.

They won't discuss. So how do you find resolve? You don't find resolve. In these relationships. There's no resolve. There is no closure. And that's the radical resolve. In these relationships. There's no resolve. There is no closure. And that's the radical acceptance.

So you just got to accept this person isn't going to have these conversations. This person's not going to have rationality for certain things. It's going to be their way or the highway. And they won't be flexible. And you've either got to live with it and accept it for a certain period of time, or you can choose to move on. But being in an argument is only going to make your life correct and you might say like that seems lonely yeah and so i have worked with people who've stayed in long-term narcissistic relationships who have done everything from get very involved in like a religious community church

community something like that to um do a lot of things with their friends, really build friendships. Unless the narcissist tries to control them hanging out with their friends. If you have a controlling narcissist, none of this will work. Like malignant narcissists, it won't work. But if you can build out friendships, if you can build out collegial relationships, if you're working, church community, some people do this in online communities if they're not able to easily get out of the house and have friendships that way. Develop hobbies. They care deeply about a garden, building something, whatever their groove is, music, something like that.

I've known people that have lovers, you know, to say, like, my body hasn't been touched in 15 years. And so they'll do that and they'll say, I felt a little guilty, but they're having sex with other people. I haven't been touched. And they're like, you know, I know I'm not very attractive but they found everyone's got someone everyone finds someone and they find their someone and so I've heard it all I've heard people do all kinds of things finding their way um finding their way to get that support on the um when they're not being when when they have to stay because that's where you get ungaslighted right person saying no that's not that's not, or this person's conduct isn't okay.

But I think where most people destroy themselves is they're like a moth to flame. They're like, I can fix this. And I'm telling you here, you can't. Stop trying to fix it. You stop trying to fix it. It's just not going to work. That was probably my challenge is I wanted to fix. Which, again, your athletic background, it makes sense.

I mean, people who have had a track record of being able to get things done, they're the ones who are very vulnerable to staying in these relationships too long.

I think I was attracted to it and then wanted to stay in it. It's attractive. And then I was just like, it just becomes exhausting when it's a full energy on someone else as opposed to a combination

of let's work together on a shared vision towards our relationship towards life not all the energy in one place correct correct and it's it's very it is very draining and I think a lot of people do feel like you know a good relationship is me doing everything they ask or catering to them no No, a relationship is, yeah, being unselfish. No, it's about give and take. I'm not saying transactional give and take. It's that you feel supported enough that when they say,

hey, do you mind going to this dinner for work? And you're like, of course I'll go to that dinner for work because you care about them. And even if you both think it's ridiculous, you're kind of giggling at each other or, you know, having fun with it is that you understand that there's a give and take and you give graciously and the other person gives graciously this isn't just about you know grinding your teeth and you know being irritated you have to go but really

that group that giving with grace but at the i'll be frank with you it really comes down though to finding somebody who has a good personality that it's not it's and i keep using this word agreeableness, right? Being agreeable. Being agreeable. And that's actually a personality style. So how do you know when someone's agreeable? All those things I talk about.

Flexibility and warmth and kindness. Just the time. Just seeing it over time. But here's the problem. Seeing their words for their actions. Agreeable men make less money. Agreeable men make less money. The research has shown that pretty clearly.

Bless their hearts. And so for everyone out there who wants somebody who's got the money and the stuff, the probability that that person's gonna be agreeable is a lot lower. So you just need to find a unicorn. Someone who's agreeable and who has money. I have not.

You've never seen that? I know, yes I have. I can think of one person off the top of my head. Billionaire, most agreeable man in the world. Sweet, sweet. Kind, humbleest, married to a raging narcissist. Take care of him. You did, he's a darling, darling. But just gets walked all over in his relationships.

Oh my God, beyond, walked all over. But in his business he can go and have, he can be assertive and yeah. I've met a few agreeable um rich folks i i mean really and we're not just rich like really good at what they do they unicorns like they they definitely um but what was interesting you know with some of the a couple of these folks agreeable very wealthy at the end of their career they got taken taken down. They got, like, people in the company, they were a soft target. They were the vulnerable target.

So they were just making them the scapegoat. And they're gonna, we're gonna take the equity from them, or they're gonna be the one to blame. Yeah, they did, they got a group of people that got a voting block. Because they weren't willing to fight for what they. Well, no, they weren't willing to be disagreeable. They just wanted to keep the peace at all costs.

And because they were collaborative people, they actually thought they were bringing up the next generation. It's interesting because, man, over the last decade, I really started doing a lot of healing work when I turned 30. I've talked about this many times on my show. I was sexually abused when I was five by a man that I didn't know. And it definitely shaped a part of me for my life until I started to heal that process and really go through a

healing journey of the shame that I felt for so long, the guilt, the insecurity, the not feeling enough or not feeling lovable, all these different things, and to kind of reshaping the story, the narrative, and finding the value in the process and in the pain, I guess, and really finding the value from 25 years of holding it in and channeling it, saying, how can I be of service at a greater level? How can I use this to support other men who have gone through sexual abuse? And that's why I wrote the book, The Mask of Manhood. Yeah, one in six men have been sexually abused, one in four women, obviously.

And what I always tell people is that, you know, men just don't talk about it, you know, and they hold it in and then they become angry or reactive or rageful or, you know, dismissive or whatever it is, they put a mask on. And, you know, that shame causes that mask, at least it did for me and a lot of men that I've talked to. So for many years, I had to learn how to kind of unwind

and heal that process. And it's been a beautiful journey of healing where I can, because I used to be very competitive. It was like I had to win at all costs. And now I'm like, well, that didn't work for me. You know, it got me results, but it left me feeling empty and alone and unfulfilled. And I didn't have peace because I always needed to win. Then I started transitioning, and when I hit 30, to I just want to collaborate.

And I just want to support others and work together. And it feels a lot more peaceful inside and fulfilling. What do you think the function was of trying to win oh they get love be accepted to get love and be accepted I was gonna say maybe to be safe yeah you get love to be accepted to feel like I was yeah to fit in you know because I didn't feel I had any friends growing up so it was like well if I win people recognize me and they like me right right and I'm desirable right if I lose and lose, then who wants to be, you know, around me? Yeah, and then the shame gets activated.

But it's also safety. That's why if I win, I'm safe. Yeah, yeah. That's the ultimate get for any human being. I'm not alone. I'm not alone. If I'm accepted, I'm safe. If I'm loved, I'm safe.

And it's funny, when I moved into, and Jay Shetty talks about this a lot when I talk with Jay about this, he's like, just being in collaboration is the key. And I was like, I know that's what I feel like over the last eight years. Because you're safe when you're still collaborating. You're still with people.

You're helping each other accelerate together. Right, but there's a fear, and I think one of the big impediments to collaboration is the sense that others will leave you behind. So if you become an island unto yourself, you feel safer, right? So I think that's often a blockade. And then if they leave you behind. So if you become an island unto yourself, you feel safer, right? So I think that's often a blockade. And then if they leave you-

Yeah, I'm at the top of the mountain, everyone else is down. Yes, if they leave you, it's not the collaboration that's the issue, it's the potential for abandonment. Interesting. Like if I'm in this business, like the billionaire friend,

I'm at the top, but then I collaborate with others, but then they take it all and they leave me behind. Well, they took it all away. I I mean this was somebody in that that man that agreeable billionaire was collaborative from the day one of his career so how do you stay collaborative and Live in abundance and want others to win around you but also not get taken advantage of it's not easy It's a with the one in five number. I'm giving you it's not easy it's with the one in five number i'm giving you it's not easy i mean it is you know what what is the best the best offense is a good defense you better have a good

defense yeah get your contracts in order get everything contracts in order document um don't put your head in the sand i mean a lot the reason narcissism has proliferated the way it has is enabling people keep giving it a free pass oh come on now you know don't hate the player hate the game it's not how that works right it's a player and yeah so it's it's a player yeah yeah no so like it's it's a we have all this kind of culture around and in some ways people like want to see they they the the best example i can give is that people hate the idea when we see a magician do a trick we know they didn't do magic. We know they had something up their sleeve, but we want to believe it's magic

because that makes the world seem more interesting. With narcissists, we want to believe in the magic. We want to believe that they're going to be, we want to believe that this charismatic person is real, that someone this larger than life is larger than life rather than an ordinary person who who's just has ordinary things and could fall and you know and we want superheroes we want that's why we've always written myths as a species but the myths should remain stories not the person who's trying to scream at you from the other cubicle

i'm reading that you've've got some great books. Thank you. Don't You Know Who I Am? How to Stay Sane in an Era of Narcissism, Entitlement, and Incivility. And you've also got another book called Should I Stay or Should I Go? I'm just laughing because of all my experiences in my life.

Should I stay or should I go? Surviving a Relations with a narcissist, it just feels like the best way to set yourself up for success is don't commit to being in a relationship with one in the first place. Take it slow, learn the person, learn as long as you can, spot the red flags. You talk a lot about this in these books.

You talk about this on your youtube channel which is amazing i was watching some of the videos very inspiring um so if you want to make sure you learn this i would do not get committed until you learn the person you're with learn the person take it slow and don't justify bad behavior when you witness bad behavior unfortunately it's like you know if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, you know, scorpions sting. It's not going to go away. There are no such things as scorpions that hug. And so, you know, once you see a scorpion, you just got, it's going to sting you.

So walk the other way. And once it stings you once, don't pick it up again. How else can we be supportive of you right now besides checking out your website, YouTube, social media, the books? Yeah. You do workshops now. I do workshops. If you go to my Instagram, follow me on Instagram, we often let people know what's coming up then.

We're going to have a healing program and recovery program for people who've been through narcissistic relationships. That's coming up next year. Yeah, just follow me on YouTube. We're always making our announcements there. Every day we have a new video coming out. So you will be 365 days wiser if you just keep watching. Dr. Romney everywhere, right? Yeah, Dr. Romney everywhere.

There we go. Okay, cool. A couple of final questions. This one is called The Three Truths. That's what I ask everyone at the end of our interviews. So imagine a hypothetical scenario. It's your last day on earth many years away. You get to live as long as you want, but it's the last day. And for whatever reason, all the content you've ever created has to go with you or go somewhere else.

But it's not here. We don't have access to any of your information anymore. The books, the videos, everything's gone. But you get to leave behind three things you know to be true from all your life lessons

and experiences. And this is all we would have from your information. What would you say would be those three lessons or three truths? If someone else is cruel to you, it's not your fault. You came into this world lovable and will always be lovable.

Trust and honor your truth and don't let anyone ever take it away from you. Mm, those are beautiful. Those are beautiful. Before I ask the final question dr romney i want to acknowledge you for your commitment to this information to this message i feel like there's a lot of people including myself going i've gone through a lot of this to who've always struggled feeling like they're wrong and they're bad and they're not good enough in these types of relationships.

And so for you to commit your adult life to this, to researching, studying, teaching in the university, in an academic level, and now to the masses with your information, your books, your content, I really acknowledge you for the gift and also the pain that you went through in your journey to learn these things and experience it so you can help educate and teach others to hopefully heal the relationships they've been through, make sure they don't get in those relationships,

and have a much more peaceful life. Well, I appreciate that. Pain is a hell of a mentor. Absolutely it is. And it's gonna keep coming until we learn the lesson. It's going to keep coming. My final question is, what's your definition of greatness? My definition of greatness is humility, self-awareness, compassion, and empathy.

There you go. Dr. Romney, thank you. Appreciate it. There you go. Dr. Ramani, thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description

for a full rundown of today's show with all the important links. And also make sure to share this with a friend and subscribe over on Apple Podcasts as well. I really love hearing feedback from you guys. So share a review over on Apple and let me know what part of this episode resonated with you the most. And if no one's told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.