The School of Greatness - How To Take Control Of Your Financial Health To Create Lasting Abundance

Episode Date: May 23, 2025

Leave an Amazon Rating or Review for my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy!Mastering your money mindset unlocks freedom most people never experience. In this power-packed episode, I speak with three financial titans who reveal the psychology behind wealth creation. Vivian Tu ("Your Rich BFF") breaks down her practical STRIP method for financial health, sharing why asking for raises beats cutting expenses every time. Noah Kagan opens up about his journey from feeling unworthy at AppSumo to creating an $85 million business, explaining why self-worth drives financial decisions. Alex Hormozi delivers the brutal truth that suffering only lasts a moment while achievement memories pay dividends forever. This conversation transforms how you'll approach money, relationships, and success whether you're starting your wealth journey or looking to level up.Vivian’s book Rich AF: The Winning Money Mindset That Will Change Your LifeNoah’s book Million Dollar Weekend: The Surprisingly Simple Way to Launch a 7-Figure Business in 48 HoursNoah’s book How I Lost 170 Million Dollars: My Time as #30 at FacebookAlex’s book $100M Leads: How to Get Strangers To Want To Buy Your StuffAlex’s book $100M Offers: How To Make Offers So Good People Feel Stupid Saying No (Acquisition.com $100M Series)In this episode you will learn:Why asking for a $5,000 raise is easier than cutting $5,000 in expensesHow to use the STRIP method for financial health: Savings, Total debt, Retirement, Invest, PlanWhy being a "B+ student with an A+ personality" often earns more than technical expertsThe critical difference between putting money in retirement accounts and actually investing itWhy protecting your reputation matters more than any short-term financial gainHow changing your environment is essential for changing your financial behaviorsThe reason most successful people delete everything that doesn't directly support their goalsFor more information go to https://www.lewishowes.com/1775For more Greatness text PODCAST to [phone]More SOG episodes we think you’ll love:Vivian Tu – greatness.lnk.to/1551SCNoah Kagan  – greatness.lnk.to/1572SCAlex Hormozi – greatness.lnk.to/1723SC Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy!Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

I have a brand new book called Make Money Easy. And if you're looking to create more financial freedom in your life, you want abundance in your life, and you want to stop making money hard in your life, but you want to make it easier, you want to make it flow, you want to feel abundant, then make sure to go to makemoneyeasybook.com right now and get yourself a copy. I really think this is going to help you transform your relationship with money this moment moving forward. We have some big guests and content coming up. Make sure you're following and stay tuned to

this episode on the School of Greatness. If someone is financially sick and unwell and their financial health is unstable, what are a few strategies they can do to either increase their income or get back to financial wholeness? Mm-hmm. I would say something that people struggle with realizing is that these changes you'll have to make, they're not permanent. They're only temporary. Yes. And you are going to be uncomfortable. It's not going to be fun. And I am very anti, cut out the avocado toast, don't buy the coffee, rah rah, okay? I am. Yeah. But if you are

in a truly a dark, dark hole and there's no ladder to crawl out. Cut it out. Like you literally have to cut it out. You have to make some temporary changes that are very uncomfortable. And to your point, like we focus so much on cutting out every single little discretionary cost.

Do you know how hard it is to cut out $5,000 worth of expenses? You know how easy it is to cut out $5,000 worth of expenses? Do you know how easy it is to ask for a $5,000 raise? A $5,000 raise happens every single day. Like that is par for the course. That's not anything special. Cutting out $5,000,

do you have any coffees you have to cut out? You know how many meals you can't go out to? Do you know how many friends you might lose in that process? So again, I think it's really, really important to be asking for that raise. And I mean 10-15% every single year. Are you gonna get it every year? Probably not. But you get 7%? Great. You get 8%? Great. You gotta ask and you gotta remind them pretty much for six months out of the year that you deserve that raise and that you want money, that you are money motivated.

Because if you ask in December when everybody else is asking for money, you're at the back of the list, back of the line. You want to be on top of the pile when your boss starts thinking about who's getting a raise this year. What can someone do who is an employee to be really smart and intentional about getting a raise. How can they show their value, their work ethic, that they're getting the results that's going to increase revenue in the business, as opposed to just saying, give me a 20% raise or a 10% raise because I deserve it.

How do they enroll through actual results as opposed to, I just want to raise. Yeah. Give it to me, otherwise I'm not happy. Yeah. So you remember those two guys on Wall Street? You've got the executioners and then you've got the knife and fork guys.

So on the execution side, make yourself a brag book. So it's a literal folder. A brag book. A brag book, razor seats, promo pitch, whatever you want to call it's a literal folder. A brag book. A brag book, raise receipts, promo pitch, whatever you wanna call it. Just make one, it's a folder in your email. And every time something good happens to you, every time you get a pat on the back

from another team member from your company, put it forward to that folder. A client says, wow, you know, you did such a great job. Whatever, put it in that folder. Anything that good that happens to you, put it in that folder. Anything good that happens, you put in that folder. Because that way, when you go and you have to write those really annoying self-assessments, you can go back and literally look through those emails

and be like, oh, remember that time I did that one thing and that thing and that thing? And now you have quantifiable results that you can point to. The second piece is the knife and fork piece. There's a study and it shows that the smartest person is not the one that gets paid the most. They're like second most paid, second or third most paid. Yeah, being smart and being the best employee

gets you to a certain point. But the person that is paid the most is the person that is essentially Mr. or Mrs. Congeniality. You need to be liked. You need, and not so much like you have to be agreeable and likable, but like people have to think of you. Like-

You gotta be top of mind. You gotta be top of mind. And you have to be, unfortunately, popular around the office. So, that happens by not skipping the company happy hour. That happens by joining your stupid rec pickleball league with your boss. You know what I mean? You have to do those things if you really want that. And I know people listening to this might think,

like, well, I have kids, I can't do the pickleball league, I can't go to the happy hour. Okay. Ask your boss to go to lunch once every three weeks. Make that time, force that time. Do the water cooler thing. Because it might cause you 15 minutes, it might cost you 15 minutes of your day and it might cost you that 15 minutes of productivity. I guarantee you, nobody is going to miss that 15 minutes of your work product but they'll remember when you told that funny joke. They'll remember that story you told about you know, the one you know, funny thing that

happened that weekend because that is how people remember you. It's not about like, oh, do you remember who closed that amazing deal last quarter? Nobody says that. Right. You know, what I think about is like, who is able to show up with just consistent, good attitude, energy and effort consistently?

Who creates the least amount of stress? Yes. You know, I don't wanna think about the challenges and the stress that is being brought to the team or to myself, but that you're just consistent. Not that you can't have a challenging day or bad stuff happens, but just overall, you got pretty good attitude.

Yeah. Pretty good energy, you're willing to show up and work hard consistently. It's like, all right, cool, you're gonna get rewarded. Yeah. But go ahead. No, I was gonna say, it's also like doing an elevator test or an airport test when you're looking at a resume.

How many times has someone asked you about your past job experience in detail? Frankly, not that many times. You know what everybody beelines to on my resume? What's that? They look at the very bottom and they're like interests, activities, and they're like, oh, that's weird. I see you were a... oh, that's weird. I see you were at, literally that's weird. You were a cheerleader in college?

And I'm like, yes. And they're like, really? And I'm like, yeah, why? Don't I seem so fun and bubbly? And like, you know, it's the same day that I'm wearing all black and I look so depressed. Or they'll look at the bottom of my resume and they're like interests, mob movies.

What's your favorite one? And I'm like, Good, good fellows, obviously. And then we get into a 20 minute debate and I waste 20 minutes in our interview but you only now have 10 minutes to ask me technical questions and if I ace those 10 minutes of questions instead of 30 minutes, I now look like a genius because every question you ask me, I got right. And then even better, like the fact that you and I now have something in common. Cause you know that Goodfellas is my favorite movie. I know that The Godfather is your favorite movie.

So now we're friends. Yeah, you're more likable. Yeah. It sounds like people hire or they give raises or opportunities to people they like more. Is that what I'm hearing you say? What was the study from? Do you remember this likeability study? Can't exactly remember. We'll have to look it up.

But it'll literally be like the first Google search. Literally just be like, you know, smartest person doesn't get paid the most. Right. It's been shown time and time again. It's not about being the smartest or the most technical. It's about you want to have technical skills and be smart. You got to be a B plus student with an A plus personality. And that'll get you farther than being an A plus student with a B plus personality.

Interesting. It's more about personality than your technical skills. You know what it sounds like? Interesting. But you got to be competent as well. Yeah. I mean, you can't have an A plus personality and just be like a D minus. Like you're still bad at the job, they don't want you around.

Man, I don't know how I got here then. I was like barely past school, you know? But it's interesting, we were just talking about, I had this event this last weekend and one of the speakers, Venice Van Edwards, she's like a behavioral scientist and studies people. And soft skills and all these different things and she was like being if you want to be interesting as a human being it's not about how much knowledge you know or how funny stories you tell or

whatever your history it's about how interested you are in other people it's like your ability to listen and engage and ask more questions. And when people feel that you care about them and are interested in them, they're gonna be more interested in you. And so it's kind of turning the tables around where you don't need to be that smart, but you need to be present. You need to be engaging. You need to be able to have courage to ask those questions and look someone in the eyes and you know just have a good energy. And I think that's part of it as well. That'll take you a long way in a career.

So that's what I'm hearing you say around. If you're wanting to increase your income is some practical things. What about if you have a sick financial health and you're just you're not sure where your money is at, you're not sure where you're spending your money, you're not sure how much debt you have, you're buying three lattes a day or whatever it is, and you're just like, huh,

I really don't have an emergency fund, I really don't have much savings, I don't have any investments, and I'm in debt. How can they get back to a healthy place? What are practical steps they can do? Yeah, this is my Your Rich BFF strip method. Ooh, strip it up. If you wanna be good with money, you gotta strip.

Strip. So S stands for savings. It's so important to get that emergency fund first. You break your leg, some bad happens to you, you're gonna need it. Yeah. And if you don't have it, you're gonna get worse into debt. So start with emergency fund. Emergency fund, I like to do.

What do you say, six months, three months? If you are a singleton who rents, three to six months is totally fine. If you got a family, you got a mortgage, the stakes are a little higher, you probably want to be closer to nine to 12. Okay, cool. T stands for total debt. And I say total debt because people think about debt as this evil thing. Not all debt is created equal. And debt with higher interest rates, things like credit card debt, when you're looking at a 22% to 25% interest rate,

is a lot dicier than something like federal student loan debt. You might have like a 3% interest rate on that. Like, those two do not compound at the same rate. It's just math. So, what you do is you rank your debt from highest to lowest interest rate and you pay it down in that order. You pay off the minimum balance of every single account.

On the higher one first. So, you pay off the minimum balance on everything. Okay, gotcha. But any money you have left over to pay down debt, you put towards the highest interest rate. The highest first. Yes. Even if it's got, even if, I don't know, you have left over to pay down debt, you put towards the highest interest rate. The highest first. Yes.

Even if it's got, I don't know, even if it's got the least amount or the most amount of debt, it doesn't matter. It does not matter. Some people prefer the snowball, which is you ranking from smallest to largest balance. It's great positive reinforcement because you're starting, you're able to clear accounts faster, but you pay more interest. Right. In areas, I'm like really impatient. It's great positive reinforcement because you're starting you're able to clear accounts faster. But you pay more interest. Right. And I'm in areas I'm like really impatient. So psychologically you might be like oh I'm getting things done faster.

But you're not. But you might be still be paying more in interest later. Correct. And we're talking about someone who does not have the money to afford that interest. Right. So we got to go fastest. Got it. Okay. Total debt that's the T. Total debt. R it, okay. Total debt, that's the T. Total debt. R stands for retirement.

I know, especially my audience, so many people are young and they're like- They're not thinking about retirement. They're like, it's four years away, it's 30 years away. It's like, it will be here. It will be here before you know it. And again, now I do know where this study come from. Credit Karma did a survey and over a quarter of people over the age of 59 have not a dollar saved for a time. Not a dollar.

Over 59? 25% don't have anything to save them. 27% of the actual. Wow. Not a dollar. Why is that? Why do people wait so long to have zero retirement? I think on one hand, in part it's education.

It's that thought of I'll be young forever. Two, I will say many, many of those people are likely in lower paying jobs. They are not offered employer sponsored retirement plans. They don't know to create their own individual one. And I think things happen throughout the years. So like maybe you were really responsible about putting away money for retirement.

If you get sick, what do you, like you can't not get treated. Like that's, you know, it's hard. Sure. Life happens. Yeah. But it is important to think about retirement now. And this is my favorite part because I love tax bennies. Tax bennies? Bennies being benefits. Okay. You know? Tax benefits. Saving for retirement, investing for retirement, you can get tax benefits. That's true. In a 401k or Roth 401k and an IRA, a Roth IRA, at one point, whether the money is going in or coming out, at one point, you don't have to pay taxes. And you can do that legally.

The government wants you to do that. That's how it's written in the tax code to incentivize you to do it. So, take advantage. Don't pay those taxes. Make sure you are saving for retirement and not paying your taxes because it's legal. And I think I, moving on from retirement, is the part that everybody misses.

Everybody puts their cash into those retirement accounts, into their brokerage accounts, and they're like, doing a great job, I'm done. That's it. But I didn't know. Investing is not putting cash into those accounts. It's actually buying stuff with that money. And people forget to do this all the time.

And buying stuff with the retirement money or with separate money? No, with that money. So like, say you have a Roth IRA and you put $5,000 into that Roth IRA. I know people who have put that money into their Roth IRA for years and they never allocated those dollars anywhere.

That just sat in a cash fund and it didn't grow. And people will make comments when I make content about Roth IRAs or 401k and they're like, well, I don't know what you're doing but my money hasn't grown. I'm like, did you invest it? And they were like, yeah, I put it in the Roth IRA. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. Did you go and buy index funds?

Did you go and buy a mutual fund? Did you put your money into a target day retirement fund? Did you do it? With that money, yeah. With that money. Let's see. The metaphor I talk about in my book is going to the grocery store. So, you go to the grocery store which is the brokerage and you have your cash in your purse and you walk in. Imagine just taking a lap around the grocery store and then going home and being like,

why is there no food in my fridge? That's what people do. You actually have to go and buy your fruits and your veggies and a couple snacks for yourself. You have to buy those things if you want them in your house. But most people aren't aware of that, huh? No, it's one of the biggest mistakes I see over and over again. So invest your money with the I, and P stands for my favorite part, you got a plan.

You do not get to have your happily ever after, you don't get to ride off into the sunset if you don't have a plan. You got a plan for your party. What type of plan should they be making? What's a good idea of making a plan? I think it's so important to sit down, whether it's by yourself or with your significant other,

and talk about what does our happily ever look like? Are you and I retired in Naples, Florida? Or are we retired in Naples, Italy? Because the numbers for those two don't look the same. Do we help our kids pay for their private education at a college? Or are we saying take out loans? Do we want to have a pet?

How many cars do we want to have? How many vacations a year are we taking? When we get married, are your parents moving into our house? Do we have to build a separate little in-law suite for them? That all costs money. And if you don't know what that looks like for you, how are you going to back your way into that number? Interesting.

Yeah, so creating that plan. Speaking of, that was great. I loved all this about getting clear on your financial health and making more. But I wanted to ask you about intimacy, relationships, money, and power. Let's do it. And you've been, you know, in a relationship for six, seven years, engaged for a year, but you also saw people probably go through different types of power dynamics and relationships in New York City, on Wall Street, and people with lots of money. Yeah. When you're either

dating before this, the guys on the floor who'd been married and divorced, I'm sure you've heard some crazy stories of people. Oh, insane. And I'm sure the divorce rate is higher on Wall Street than just like middle America, I don't know, suburbs, I don't know. I don't know if I would say that. Really? Yeah.

Maybe they just keep it together but they have like separate wives or something. Yeah, I don't know. Who does? Yeah. Three families like on billions or something. Yeah, oh my gosh, I was just have like separate wives. Yeah, I don't know. Who does? Yeah. Three families like on billions or something. Oh my gosh, I was just gonna say dollar bill. Yeah, exactly. But how much does money affect intimacy and relationships when one person has more than the other, when both have a lot, when both have a little?

What have you witnessed and personally, but also what have you experienced from your research? Yeah. Anybody who says money does not impact your relationship is a liar, okay? It is truly every year they do some, somebody does a study, it's money and sex, money and sex, one and two, one and two. They go back and forth between who's number one, who's number two, but like,

those are the top two reasons always. And imagine if true, like physical intimacy is up there and money's right next to it. Why don't we put just as much time into maintaining the money piece as we do the physical intimacy piece on making a relationship or marriage work? Correct. And I think maybe this is just a phenomenon that I have witnessed and I will say this from like a heteronormative relationship standpoint, but like we have a lot of guy friends who

make a lot of money and you are one of two dudes, okay? You either want a partner truly and like, I know some of these guys, like their wives, girlfriends, whatever, are like the coolest, most inspirational. Like they just have the coolest job or they always have something really exciting to talk about like a passion project they're working on. They're just like so cool and they're so smart.

Good human beings. Like really nice. They do something, like they just have a lot to bring. They're always the person who's like, oh yeah, like I brought a snack for you. I'm like, why do you have a snack for me? But it's like, they're just cool, thoughtful partners. Then there are other people who want a more,

I would say with wives, it's more of like a traditional marriage. Someone who stays at home, who takes care of the home, and there's nothing wrong with that. When you choose these routes, I think it has a lot to do with having been conditioned into thinking that you need to be the provider. And I will say, I think there are a lot of men out there that would not be able to handle having a significant other or a woman significant other who makes more money than them.

Really? 100%. Because I think it would be emasculating for some men who are not confident in their own masculinity. Yeah. And their ability to provide in other ways that are not monetary. So do you think when a woman makes more than a man

in a relationship that it eventually will fail? No. It's possible that it eventually will fail? No. It's possible that it works out? Yes, I do. I really do. But you have to talk about that for sure. Like I make more than my significant other. And I asked him, I was like,

does it make you uncomfortable that I make more than you? Because for the first five years of our relationship, he made way more money than I did. Really? Yeah. He's made way more money than I did. Really? Yeah. He's always made more money than I did until I started Your Rich Be Have. And he answered in a really, really thoughtful way. And he was like, no, why wouldn't I want you

to make more money so that we can do the things we wanna do faster and I can retire earlier. But I'm like, okay, sick, easy. And he's like, but on top of that, like you can't make your partner feel bad. That's the part that's really messed up. I think like, regardless of if, you know, the guy makes more, the girl makes more,

the, where you'll see issues is where the partner who makes more leans on that money to replace actual emotional investment in the relationship. So like, Venmoing your partner $200 because you can't make that date, that's trying to buy affection instead of being like, I am so sorry.

And then the next day, sending roses. You're still spending money, you're still getting a gift, you're saying sorry, but it's not so transactional and gross. And then on the women's side, it's like making your partner feel bad like, well, I earned this money. It's like, you know, why are you going out golfing? Like, I don't think money should be like held over anybody's head regardless of who you

are in a relationship or if just you know, between friends because that's going to negatively impact relationships no matter what. Right. I've heard this, you tell me if I'm you know, off on this but I've heard that extremely successful you know, it's called boss girls or whatever, boss women who are you know, running their own business, CEO is making, you know, leading the way, building inspiring things and also extremely attractive women don't get approached by men as much for some

reason. That's what I've heard. I don't know if that's accurate or not but that's what I've heard. It's like if you're making a lot of money as a woman or if you're extremely attractive physically, guys are intimidated. This is what I've heard. Why do you think men are intimidated by extremely successful financial success within women or physically attractive women? A fear of inadequacy, obviously.

I mean, I don't mean to say like, obviously you don't think about that. But like, I think when you see someone that you think is too good for you Whether it be through looks through money through anything You would say I'd rather quit before I try Wow for that fear of rejection like it's such a fact because We have a friend who is just Ten out of, smoke show. She's never the one that people wanna talk to at the bar.

Really? Oh my God, never. Nobody ever talks to her. She's like in the corner because everybody thinks that she will be mean to them. In fact, this- Reject them or be mean. Yeah, this girl is like A plus personality,

just like so beautiful. Like I can only say good things but no one ever approaches her because they think that she will instantaneously think she's too good for them. Whereas like, if we're keeping it real, there are certainly girls who are not as conventionally attractive as this one friend but guys feel very compelled. They're like, well, this girl and I are probably in the same league and she seems fun,

I'll give this one a go. Wow. And that is just so much more approachable because they think that it's essentially like saying no to yourself or like applying for a job that you think you're unqualified for. Like people are quitting before they try. Wow, interesting.

Do you think it's harder for men to approach, you know, a smoke show of a woman, I guess, aesthetically versus someone who's making more money than to them, or is it harder to approach someone making more money than them? I think it's harder to approach someone who's visually attractive because it's hard to instantaneously judge being like, that woman makes more money than me, right? I think there's also a lot of mental gymnastics that can go into it. I know what people say about me on the internet. I see the comments. People are like, so daddy's money. Like, it's not, like I made it.

Right. Like, it's my money. I invested it. Or, oh, she's a trust fund baby. Or, you know, did she win the lotto? Or like, what happened? Like, no one ever just wants to believe that you earned your money. Wow.

Or that you deserve it. They always want to make some excuse for themselves so that they can sleep at night. Because if they look at someone like me who has made it themselves with certain privileges that I will not deny, but who was able to do it and they in their 29 year old life have not been able to do it. Yeah. They feel shortcomings.

And it's okay to want to work for more and strive for more, but don't ruin a good thing just because you're always trying to like hit the next milestone. They'll come, but you could, you know, completely lose this entire journey if you don't take a second to stop them roses and stop and smell the roses. Yeah, that's beautiful. I love them. Those are probably the most unique three truths I've heard.

I like that. Before I ask the final question, Vivian, I wanna acknowledge you for your realness. I love this conversation. I love connecting with you. Was I too honest? I hope. I love it.

I think it's amazing. So I'm excited to connect with you and to share this message and hopefully connect more and have you back on and learn more about your stuff. So I acknowledge you for sharing this in your authentic way. I'm curious, what is the difference between millionaires and billionaires and everyone else? Every billionaire has a few different things but I'd say the two most common things between a millionaire and a billionaire. Most billionaires picked one thing, just one thing.

Let's just go. I mean, Bob Metcalfe, Ethernet created the Ethernet. Pretty big deal. John Paul DeGiorgio, he created two billion dollar companies, Haircare and Patron Tequila. Michael Hudner did Ships. And all of them just have one thing that they focused on. And most of us are like, well, I'm and Patron Tequila. Michael Hudner did Ships. And all of them just have one thing that they focused on. And most of us are like, well, I'm gonna do real estate and I'm gonna do a little content and then I'm gonna try to e-commerce business.

I'm gonna have a seven passive income stream. Yeah, I don't. And so for me, as I've gotten older, I'm only doing AppSumo. It's like I have a book, oh, my girlfriend and our baby, that's number one. And then it's like AppSumo, number two, my business. And then I, yes, I get get to do YouTube which I love making content

similar to you I have a book where I'm teaching other people how I did what I did yes and I love that they did one thing I think the second thing that's probably not recognized is they're in billion dollar markets they're in billion dollar opportunities so what's a billion dollar opportunity honestly this is gonna sound silly but like lawn care how many lawns are out there you have a lawn I have like a fake yard yeah it's a lot of water in California so yeah This is gonna sound silly, but like lawn care. How many lawns are out there? You have a lawn? I have like a fake yard, yeah. It's a lot of water in California, so yeah. True, do you have a pool?

I do, yeah. And then you have pool care. And how much do you pay your pool care person? Oh, a hundred bucks a week. It's a week, almost. And weekly, yeah. Yeah, so 400 bucks a month. So that's $5,000 a year.

You have 50 pools, it's like, hey. That's a million dollar opportunity. And then so you realize like pools and certain things like can be billion dollar markets. And most people, and this is something, hey, that's a million dollar opportunity. And then you realize like pools and certain things like can be billion dollar markets. And most people, and this is something I had to recognize through boring businesses, boring businesses is not and it's not just boring. It's just billion dollar opportunities. Like in John Paul DeGioia was a great one that I found fascinating because he's like, find

something that's in the reorder business too. So, not just a billion dollar market like shampoo, billion dollar market, but people need to buy your product over and over and over again. And so I think there's something fascinating about it. A billion dollar market is a product that people need like pool care. It doesn't have to just be tech. I come from a tech world, but there's a lot of different businesses out there to be creating. Like you can make money in a lot of different ways.

And that's been also fascinating with talking to all these people. From ships to basements, like there's just so many different ways. Right, a lot of ways. I'm curious, I think it was one of the interviews I saw from you where you're interviewing some Yeah. From ships to basements. Like there's just so many different ways. Right, a lot of ways. I'm curious, I think it was one of the interviews I saw from you, where you're interviewing some guy, maybe you'll remember who this is, and you ask him like, what's your definition of success?

And he said something like, as an adult, my adult kids still wanna hang out with me on their own. Yeah. Not because I have money, but because they just like me. Yeah. And I was like, man because they just like me. Yeah. And I was like, man, that really hit me. And I was there from your, one of your-

The founder of FedEx. The founder of FedEx. Of Kinkos, Kinkos. Kinkos, yeah. So do you remember what that was or what that question was? I don't know if that was the exact question or what he said, but do you remember that? Yeah, I remember him.

The other person I think of when I think of success, I asked the founder of Strava, you know Strava? It's a cycling tracking app. It's like social network for cyclists. And this is the most unique one, I don't know, I don't think he's a billionaire which is totally great. He's still doing really well, it's an amazing app, big business. And I asked him, I was like, what's success? He's like not waking up to an alarm.

That one's I never forgot because it's such a, it means you have freedom of your time, you're a time millionaire. And the fact that you're like, I can wake up whenever I want and do the things I really want in my day. That is to me, I like, okay, I like that level of success. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, and the other guy was the founder of Kinko's or? It's founder of Kinko's and yeah, I mean,

what was shocking about his story, he sold his company 2.4 billion, became a billionaire. And the disappointing part, he was awesome. I really admire him, Mr. Ophelia. But he said he was stressed for 34 years. He's like, every day I'm stressed. Building back business. Yeah, he's like, is it gonna work?

Am I gonna have a payroll? Do I have to do this thing? I have to fly that stuff? And I remember just being like, I don't want that. And that's the coolest part about life. I can look at Louis, I can look at Noah, I can check him out. I can be like, whose haircut do I wanna try?

And guess what, you create your own. You take all these different ones and you get a piece together the haircut you wanna actually wear. Yeah. So I like seeing that. And I was like, I don't wanna live that life. I'm happy making less money, but doing it the way I want.

Yeah. But for 20 years, you lived a certain level of life, building your business, making money. And there was anxiety and stress around that for a long time, right? When did you realize, like, okay, this level of stress and, you know, emotional overwhelm and just like, always needing to get bigger and bigger and bigger,

when did you realize that no longer works for you? And that you wanted to shift it. Yeah. Maybe you knew from the beginning it doesn't work, but you're still doing it. But when did you realize, OK, this is not how I want to live the rest of my life? Yeah. What I'm 41 and I think you have to be stressed in your 20s. If there's a part of stress, that's good. It's not always a bad thing.

I think you see the book out there outside of stress. So in 20s, you're figuring out your life and you're just working. You don't know really what's happening. And then your 30s, you're kind of more clear like, OK, I like maybe YouTube. I like promoting products. And then your 40s, you're for me, I find it calm. And that just takes time to find out who we really are and be patient with some process that eventually we will figure it out.

And for me, Covid, I would say, is when I finally found more peace. Really? Yeah. When most people found more stress, you found peace. Why did COVID bring you peace? Because I recognized that how I was approaching business, I had a plan. I was like, here's what we're gonna be doing. Here's our budget, here's our business,

and I have a plan that I can follow. So, that was part one. And part two is I didn't really like how I was living. I was engaged and it didn't work out. Really? Yeah. You know, I had my business partner had a line he was recommending. He said to me, he's like, are you getting what you're getting or are you getting what

you want? From the relationship? Yeah. Not from as a business partner. Right, right, right. He's great. Shout out, Chad. He's amazing.

So, you're engaged, maybe there were some ups and downs and you weren't like fully clear. Yeah. Yeah. And he asked you fully clear. Yeah. Yeah. And he asked you that question. Yeah. Are you getting what you're getting? Are you getting what you want? And what was the answer?

I'm not getting what I want. And that's hard, right? I think most of us, this is the thing I've noticed about advice, especially watching interviews and interviewing people, most of us know the truth. We know our truth. It's just hard and we don't want to accept it. Everyone has courage. Like I did this ayahuasca thing which I know is more common now but I did it years ago

and courage to me was I was afraid of it. But I did it anyways and then I was still scared and there was a whole crazy story about this but coming out of it I was like oh, I realized I can do hard things and all of us can do hard things but we have to face the hard thing. Yes. And we all have it in us and so for me with breaking up with the fiance which was tough and I do what I do. What was that like? And we all have it in us. And so for me with breaking up with the fiance, which was tough and I do wish I like,

that was probably one of the more bigger regrets in my life that I didn't do it sooner. Cause I wasted her time, wasted my time. Yeah. And it was two years of just like back and everyone's gone through this. It's not unique for me, but it was two years of, okay, let's try and make it work.

But I know I'm not really good for you. And I don't feel good about myself. And so it was like, eventually when COVID happened, that was kind of our, we had some issues that went down and I was like, I can't do this. Like I can't spend, it was the specific thing I thought was like, do I want 40 more years of this? Oh man. Yeah. It was tough. And I- It's interesting. I asked myself a question in a previous relationship before. I think Esther Perel said something like,

can you see yourself having 10,000 meals with this person? Like, if you're gonna have 10,000 meals with a person, do you see yourself enjoying those meals, having fun? Or is it more stressful? Yeah, and I mean, all that added up, I mean, even doing like this book, Million Dollar Weekend or YouTube and stuff, nothing was wrong. But she is not with our relationship, she did not get excited. Like I want to go to YouTube. I like attention. And my partner now

with Moffat, she's like, go on YouTube, have fun with Louis. Like she's, and for me that worked. Yes, yes. And my ex will find a partner that's better. And so with COVID, it was like having a plan of business, breaking up with the fiance. And then I think the other part that was kind of interesting was experimenting with life. This is the same with business, it's an experiment, it's all an experiment, it's a game. And I experimented just different ways of living. I experimented finally living kind of rich.

Like I had money, but I never enjoyed it. Really? Yeah, I think we're all taught that money can't buy happiness and that you're like, how do you shouldn't be buying these things and don't live this way. And most of the ones who are showing that stuff are actually probably not, don't have the money for it.

Not that I'm poor, but like they probably don't have the money. Most rich people don't need to be posting about it. And so I rented a Malibu beach house. I rented a lake house in Austin. I started doing these things. I got like an RV for a month and I just kind of like drove around and like hung out the RV and I was like, wow, having some nicer space to live, it makes me feel a lot better.

And so those kinds of things led me in a direction where single for a while, started doing dating coaches, had a business plan that I was executing for AppSumo. So I felt in control of the business. And then I felt like I'm actually going to start taking care of myself. And then I also felt like I could take care of others then too, as I was feeling better about myself. And I also felt like I could take care of others then too as I was feeling better about myself and that I think the past three years I've felt much better. Just been much calmer.

Marshall What has money and relationships taught you about when you've been in a relationship that you weren't fully sure of was gonna work out? What was your views around money during that time? Were you more anxious and stressed? Were you more abundant thinking? Like where were you at with money? It's easy to be abundant when you have money. I'll tell you that it's hard when you do and that's what most people they're struggling with money. That's why I'm like let's talk about

entrepreneurship because that's a way of you can changing your situation which everyone can do. And I had a friend who said no you're here and you're here where you want to be and it's actually closer than you think. I was like really? He's like yeah it's much closer than you think. You thought it was a was like, really? He's like, yeah, it's much closer than you think. And you thought it was a bigger gap. I thought it's a gap. I thought there's something I don't know. I thought there's something outside and it's something I think we're both, as we've gotten

older, it's all inside. Yeah. Just being kind of like, hey, it's okay. Yeah, of course. It's okay. Now, with my ex, it was not that there was a good or bad thing about money. It was just how we treated each other with it. Like, I didn't really spend a lot of money on myself.

So, what did you do with your money? Because you were making money every year. Like I didn't really spend a lot of money on myself. And like- So what did you do with your money? Cause you were making money every year. Was it just compounding in a bank account? Was it in stocks? What were you doing? Yeah, my father built his own business

and then lost it to drugs and alcohol. And it was, it was a sad, like that's definitely for me. I think a lot of, a lot of men, we want our fathers to recognize us. And I was fortunate to have a great mom and a great stepfather, but for me, that father attachment. And I think with growing up with Jewish parents, Kind of like, we're taught to be very frugal,

we're taught to be very practical. And it's just like go make money and that's a thing versus like, all right, how do you enjoy life? And I think with my ex, it wasn't, she kind of made me feel bad about it. Like why don't you spend money or go to the airport, it's like $5 for a bottle of water. I'm like, I'm going to go to the bathroom and drink from the faucet. Like, I'm just like five bucks, a bottle of water I'm like I'm gonna go to the bathroom and drink from the faucet like right right or like I'm just like five bucks it's fine I don't care and I'm there still times but

over time you start spending in different things like I bought a fancy Jaguar I had so much regret on it yes you did oh yeah I hated it I hated it I dude I oh I mean it was the worst cuz I don't care about nice cars I have a 2004 Miata uh-huh I just got a new Vespa. That's just like, and I do have a Model Y, but it was not important to me. And I think that was interesting where she wasn't, and for both of us, she wasn't like, hey, she was like, you're being cheap.

I was like, okay. You know, it kind of like felt deflated versus, and I was like, hey, why don't we, do you wanna try spending these things? Can we rent it for a day? Right, right, right. So, I think there was ways of actually being more positive to each other with money.

Right, wow. Do you believe in pricing gratitude and manifesting and the law of attraction? And if so, has that helped you attract more in the life you want? I'll tell you the part that's counterintuitive for me. So every day I write down something I'm grateful and almost everything I'm grateful for is silly. Like to me, it's like, I'm grateful and almost everything I'm grateful for is silly.

Like to me, it's like I'm grateful for electricity. I'm grateful for water, hot water. Just cause it's that silly man. Yeah, those are the ones I really love because it's available and it's not realizing how great life really is for all of us. I mean, if you're able to watch this, life's probably pretty good.

Doesn't maybe feel good in this moment or read on the money, but that's also something you could change. In terms of having candidly, I don't think I always felt worthy. Of what? Of like having certain things like having a wife or having a partner or having a kid and even with Facebook and stuff like that, I felt like well, Zuck fired me, I'm not worthy of having a business. Really?

Yeah, I felt like oh, this guy knows something better than I don't and I think a lot of us feel that way like oh, these other people have these things. Am I actually worthy of this stuff? And how do we, you know, you talk about gratitude and vision. I think everyone can spend more time just being grateful for themselves. And how do we just actually give more kindness to ourselves? So one thing that I work on, anytime I'm kind of criticizing myself, it's like, all right, let's say one nice thing. And it kind of, what's crazy is you do that enough times, like criticize, nice thing.

Criticize, and we are literally the meanest people in the world to ourselves. Like you know your worst friend is yourself. And so how do you change that relationship over time? And now it's just kind of like throughout my day, I'm like, dude, good job. Like hey, you hung out with Louis, great job. And the more that we start doing those things, I think that's a way that yes, you can manifest other things, but it's just really how do we work on being nice to ourselves and that's really helped over time. So, it sounds like you were pretty self-critical and you did feel like you had self-worth or

feel like you were worthy for a long time building AppSumo. Yeah. But you still built an 85 million dollar business feeling unworthy, feeling under qualified and not fully loving and accepting yourself, is that right? Yeah. On a scale of one to 10 of self-worth, where would you say you were for most of those years, the first 10 years of building AppSumo? Yeah. One being you have very little self-worth and don't believe you're

deserving of any of it, the money, the success, the love and 10 being you're deserving of all that. Where were you for most of those years? Literally until probably the past year, just very low. Like, it's still, let's talk about the book. No, no, this is good. Man, probably until literally like two years ago, May 4th, threes, fours. Threes and fours. Yeah, like I was getting partners that would that liked me just because that's what I got.

And then with AppSumo, I think I had this fear I'm going to ruin this business. So I try to pass it off and not do it. And even with this book, I had to go through my own journey of, okay, I'm going to hire Tel Ra as one of the best business writers in the world and I don't have to face myself. And when all of us face these hard things in life, whether it's writing a book, whether it's relationship, whether it's starting a book, whether it's relationship, whether it's starting putting yourself out there a little bit, and you face some of the fears and you start just even small,

the smallest thing, you're like, maybe I am worthy. Maybe I can do these things. And with AppSumo, when the previous CEO quit and I came back to work, I definitely was like, I'm ruining this business. I'm messing and I did make a lot of mistakes, but I just stayed with it and I had great to work, I definitely was like, I'm ruining this business, I'm messing, and I did make a lot of mistakes, but I just stayed with it and I had great people around me. And so over time now I'm like, and I get feedback. One of the easiest things that anyone could do

to improve right now, really literally right now is text someone, how can I get better? Whether it's in your relationship, business partner, whether it's at work, as an employee or as a founder. And so it was just through working with people, getting feedback over time now, I'm like, pretty good at this.

I used to always, this is, I haven't really talked about this. It sounds small, I used to always call myself Chief Sumo because I never wanted to be a CEO. I never thought I was the right leader. And in the past 18 months, two years now, I'm the CEO. And so maybe for others out there, how are we labeling ourselves? Yes.

And what are maybe small steps, not gonna be big like I have to go some dramatic thing that I can just do that makes me feel good about myself. That moves me in that direction. Same with the relationship where I didn't, I went, I worked with Stephanie Rigg. She's a woman out of Australia, great on Instagram, really great content. And a lot of what we talked about was like, what are you doing that makes you feel good about yourself?

Like, you drank last night, how did that make you feel? Like you're doing this type of activity, like you're going on this date with a girl you don't want, how did that make you feel? Like you're showing, now with my partner, Mafae, it's like, how am I showing up for her? Am I actually aligning my priority to my behavior? And every time I do that, I'm like, like I cooked her some food two weeks ago. I was like, I'm proud of myself.

I'm glad I could take care of you. Yeah, I'm really proud of myself. And all of us feel these different ways. It's not like some exclusive club where everyone's always feeling happy. Yeah. Right. But it's doing things that make us feel good about ourselves. That frankly, it's all within our control. I think over years,

you realize it's not external validation. It's like how do we get more of the internal validation and that internal person that's like, hey, I'm doing pretty damn good myself and that's okay. Man, this is beautiful. I'm so glad you're talking about this Um, have you seen the movie creed 3? I've seen one or two. I don't know if I've seen three. Creed 3 was the most recent one. Um

Anyway, the long story short about it the Adonis creed the he's now world champion in all these things Um has all the money he's in the hollywood hills like living the dream, you know Most famous guy in sports or whatever it is and he's kind of, he's in the Hollywood Hills, like living the dream, you know, most famous guy in sports or whatever it is, and he's kind of depressed. He's like not boxing anymore, he's not like just kind of sitting around depressed and someone from his past comes into his life

out of prison, right? Someone from his past comes. And there was some darkness that they both went through which caused this person to go to prison that Adonis, the main character, never faced. And he was kind of always running from his pain, his past. You talked about facing yourself. I'm curious, what was the thing that you had to face

that was the hardest thing in the last couple of years that allowed you to have more peace and more freedom in yourself and around money, love and relationships. Different things, man. It doesn't happen all at once. Like even taking Million Dollar Weekend as an example, you know, I've worked for Zuckerberg,

I helpstartment.com. Like I've started so many different businesses that have made millions of dollars and I still felt afraid. Like, can I put a book out there that people actually want? And can I actually even help them? And so, I thought by hiring someone who's like the best around the world, I cold emailed him, like, can you work on me with this book? He's like, sure.

And so, I paid him money. And I was like, okay, good. At least I don't have to do it. I don't have to face myself to see if I can actually write a book. And then as the book got closer to having to submit the manuscript, as you know, it goes, I was like, this is not, I have to face myself with this book. I have to see if I can really do it. What did you not face?

I actually writing a lot. We wrote the book together but it was like, is this the book that I want to put my name on? Is this a book that I can say, hey, if you're trying to start a business, there's some things about starting, building and growing that I can help you with. And so, I had to face the book. I had to face myself and actually writing the book. And yes, I worked on it, you know, lightly but at a distance. And I think a lot of us do that. It's like, okay, well, let me avoid that thing. Let me avoid the relationship.

Let me maybe avoid the work. And so then I basically like, I don't know if I call it hermit mode, but basically just like sat in my room and more or less for about a month just like heads down, worked with beta readers. And then I was like working on the scripts and all these things and I was like slowly and then I was going with people. So, every week we have five people going through the book and a guy living at my house about a month ago and through doing it I was like, oh, I can do this.

I can do this. This works. And that's we all feel that. We all feel that in a lot of different ways, maybe in a relationship, maybe it's with work, maybe it's with ourselves and so kind of this concept lately I've been really embracing is like, what's the hard thing I'm avoiding and how do I go into that? So I've voted the book for a while of it and then I was like, now I'm gonna go full in. Same with AppSync and with CEO, I didn't wanna do it.

I didn't wanna do it, I wanted someone else to do it. And same thing, he quit when I was on a bike ride, I was biking across America. And he quit and I didn't wanna come back. One of my best friends was like, well, who's paying for the bike trip? I was like, AppSumo. He was like, well, and the guy who's running doesn't wanna be there.

So I came back and had to face that and the same experience. It's surprising how much we're afraid of things and when you finally do it, and it wasn't as hard as I thought. And I'm much more capable than I realized and that's true for everyone. And it's just thinking about what these things are. Wow. What's been scarier, recommitting to owning your

CEO role in a business that you helped build, coming back to that and taking ownership or getting out of a relationship that wasn't working to enter a new relationship and now have a baby on the way. They're both insanely hard. Both insanely hard. Yeah. AppSumo is definitely some of the hardest work I've ever done. And I would say by being an entrepreneur though, I feel lucky.

I feel like it's the hardest thing, but this is the part that I think I'm assuming you can resonate with. The things that are the hardest for us are also on the other side of that, the things we're most proud of. We're never not proud of ourselves when we do something hard for ourselves. And I'm really proud of my work at AppSumo where I'm like, I'm showing up. And so for everyone out there, whether you're doing YouTube, whether it's religion, whether it's sports, whether it's a business, like how are you showing up or in your partner? And the same thing with my partner where it's been a challenge.

You know, I'm flying to Spain. I'm staying up till 10, 11 PM to work in Spain hours so that I can be with her. And now that she's pregnant, it's like, okay, am I really showing up in the relationship for what she needs? And that's, lately it's been awesome. It's been, I'm happy to show up for those things,

but it's been a journey to get to that point. If someone only has a few thousand dollars a year extra to spend on something, what's more important for them to invest it in the stock market or real estate or to invest in themselves? You know where I'm going with this one. So my favorite ism that I like is don't invest in the S&P 500. It's invest in the S&ME 500. Because you will get so much more on active income

by investing the small amount you have into increasing your earning capacity than you ever would. Like, just think about the dollars here. So let's say that you had $1,000 saved up. If you invest in Apple, whatever, or you invest, like, you'll have a 20% gain this year, a 30% gain this year, okay, great.

So now you have $1,300. But $1,000 can teach you a new lesson or a new skill that can take your earning capacity, because if you only have $1,000 saved up, you either make very little money or you're not following the first rule, which is you got to spend way less than you make. And so, if you're on the I don't make a lot of money part, by the way, you can still definitely save more.

But if you're on the I don't make a lot of money part, then doubling your earning capacity would, by the end of the year, you might have $30,000 saved up rather than one or 1,300 in the alternative scenario. It's not even close. It's in the alternative scenario. It's not even close. It's an order of magnitude. It's not even close. But everyone's afraid of work and everyone wants to get rich quick which is why lotteries continue to make money. And so, if you can just get out of that basic fallacy that you're somehow going to get lucky,

I would rather get rich for sure and be willing to like, that's for me, like success insurance is extending the time horizon and being willing to learn skills along's for me, like success insurance is extending the time horizon and being willing to learn skills along the way. That's success insurance. Cause here, play out the other scenario. If you actually do hit the lottery, you also lose it cause you don't have the skills to keep it. That's true.

So the other path is pure fallacious thinking. It's false. It's a false dream. It's never going to result in wealth. If you get rich quick, you get poor even faster. We've already seen that. Say that again. If you get rich quick, you get poor even faster. We've already seen it. Say that again. If you get rich quick, you get poor even faster.

Why? Because you don't, it's, so my favorite magic card, hold on, I'm gonna bring it back. My favorite magic card was this card called Burning Wish in Magic the Gathering. And the flavor text on the card said, she wished for a weapon, but not the skill to wield it. And I always loved that text

because I thought about that as business, as money. It's like we wish for money, but not the skill to wield it. And I always loved that text because I thought about that as business, as money. It's like we wish for money but not the skill to wield it. Because money is just a potential for exchange. And so if you don't know how to make it, then everything you have is just a nut that's going to go down. Because you also don't know how to multiply it if you got lucky. Because anybody who wants to get rich quick

only is relying on luck. You're relying on chance. You're gambling. You're not investing. And so if you want to. Because anybody who wants to get rich quick only is relying on luck. You're relying on chance. You're gambling. You're not investing. And so if you want to play the game, and unfortunately the tweets, the Instagram posts, the whatever, we see someone's screenshot when they go from

$10,000 to 1.5 million. You just don't see the other hundred people or a thousand people who put $10,000 into a dollar. And so the idea is I wanna get rich for sure. And the surefire way to get rich, and the reason all these billionaires get up there and they say, hey, just invest in skills, and everyone's like, sure.

It's because that's the only thing that protects you. And I come from a country, or my father goes from a country rather, where my family, everything we had was taken from us by the government. And so, it's very real that you may have to start over halfway through your life at zero. And if you do lose it all, the only thing you have is what you can do with your brains and your hands. And so, my grandfather, who I was very, very close with, used to always say, you have two hands and one brain, use them. And my father came here with a thousand dollars and he built the life that he has now, he's

a doctor. But that was only possible because he had skills. And even though everything was taken, land, houses, everything was taken, you can't take no divorce, no tax, no government can confiscate who you are and what you can do. And I see that as the ultimate freedom and independence of excellence and representation of excellence. If someone has skills but they have a bad relationship with money or they have money wounds or they have money beliefs that they live in fear around whenever they receive

money, are they able to earn and make a lot with those money wounds? Yeah and so I will first off, I don't know what money wounds are but I will if I can define it the way I would define what you're saying. Yes. So it's like bad money beliefs, money wounds, money trauma, bad energy, all of that I'd buck it into bad behaviors under specific conditions which is that you don't know how to behave with money. It's all it is How do people learn how to behave with money? Well the first you follow very simple rules the first rules they spend less than you make period no questions asked

That's it. You just what if money what if people have never had money and then all of a sudden Oh, I got a thousand dollars and they get excited or they get scared or they get worried How do you manage the energy that money brings to you? So I think it's thinking in ratios. So it's like I will save this percent, I will spend this percent, this percent goes to my house or my lodging, this goes to food and you just have to stick with it. Now I think that that process is good to go through but I agree that when you don't make a lot of money, what feels like a lot of sacrifice results in very low payoff and that's why I'm bullish on put as much as you can in increasing

your earning capacity. Skills. Yeah. And the thing is you don't have to bot, so you really only have to have one skill and then you can get every other skill you need in your life. And so, when I got into the business game, the only real skill I developed quickly was sales. And I even have that skill, but I had to for the gym.

So I learned how to sell, I got pretty good at it. And so I would go to these networking things, I would meet other business owners, and I felt like I was a collector of fine skills. I would find people, and I'd be like, hey, how do you get customers? And somebody would be like, oh, I'm really good at Google PPC.

And I'd be like, ooh, I don't know how to do that, That sounds interesting. And so what I would do is I'd go and say hey, what's your sales process look like? And they'd be like, oh, you know, it's it's okay. I'd be like, hey, do you mind if I just like I'm pretty good at it and I can I can walk you through what we do because I might help you out. And so then this is the key part. If they said yes, which plenty of people take free work, I would then treat it as though they had paid me for like a $10,000 consulting gig. I would do tons of research. I would talk to the team.

I would re-script what they had. And then I would train their team on it. I would tell them how to manage it. And this is when you know you did it right. I would present it to them as though I was making a presentation. And they'd be like, dude, this is too much, man. Like, whoa.

And then the magic thing comes out. They say, what can I do for you? And I'd be like, it's funny you ask. Can you show me your PPC stuff? And the thing is that they would give me less than I gave them, but it was more than I had. And so, it was a net positive game. And so, you only need to develop one skill and then you can barter for everything else. So like in the networking groups that I joined, I got voted the best, you know,

the member of the year and the first year they ever had it. When I was in my fraternity, back in the day, I became voted president. Like I always try, like when I was in high school, I was editor in chief of the literary magazine and vice editor of the newspaper. Like I always tried to like, what can like, how can I trade what I know? How can I just keep trading up? And that's fundamentally what I've done my whole life is just trade up. And the risk here is that let's say you do all this work

and the guy says, thanks, and then just gets off the call. Well, there's two possible scenarios. One is you're not as good as you think you are. Or they don't function with reciprocity. Yes. And that's okay. Because again, volatility only appears volatile with low volume.

Yeah, you gotta do it a lot of times. If you do it a hundred people, you'll get what you want. And if there's three guys who know PPC, you give to all three, maybe one of them helps you out. Absolutely. But you're still better off than you were before. And so, this is the part, like this was how I leapfrogged in my earning capacity. Really?

Oh, 100%. And then for the people I couldn't, I would do a favor and ask to pay them. You know what I mean? I would do whatever I could and I would encourage people to, I spend so much money for one-on-one time and I also think there's something very powerful about being in person. Not Zoom. Yeah, I think there's something,

I think that you can observe far more behaviors in person. There's so many things that are lost on Zoom. What's the most you spent on one-on-one time? I spent $350,000 for an hour. An hour? Yeah. With who? Guy who's worth seven billion.

What was the biggest lesson he taught you in that one hour? Yeah. With who? Guy who's worth seven billion. What was the biggest lesson he taught you in that one hour? He said protect your reputation with your life. Did you need to spend 350 grand for that? I think that there's something powerful about knowing that someone who is much further ahead says it to you. And it's not that that advice is something you haven't heard before but it's the advice that you needed to hear right now. And that was what I needed to hear.

Wow. Protect your reputation with your life. What does that look like? And how does one do that? When anyone can speak about them negatively online and say what they want and make stuff up or? You can only control what you do. And so the Stoke approach to this is that you know the truth.

And there's the whole like, you know, bad news, lies get out of, get around the world before, you know, the truth gets out of bed. But I see lies a lot, like so Warren Buffett says this about the stock market. He says in the short term, it's a popularity contest. In the long term, it's a weighing system. And I see reputation the same way, which is in the long term, it's a popularity contest. In the long term, it's a weighing system. And I see reputation the same way, which is in the short term, somebody could make some

viral thing about you or they make some piece of content, some hit piece, whatever it is. But if you do right by the values that you have on a long enough time horizon, you touch enough people the surface area of your reputation compounds. Because it's not just that you do business with one person, but as soon as, because if you do grow in your reputation, then more people will ask about you to the people who have met you. And then they will give you, they will give their opinion, just kind of like the movie before,

or the same restaurant or whatever. Yeah, exactly. And so if every person who has done business with you is like, he's tough with fair, or like, he's very ethical, or like, you know what, I would trust him with money. You know what I mean? If you have that core set of beliefs and you behave consistent with that, those bundled terms, I want people to think these things about me.

What are the behaviors I have to do in order to get them to think that? I'll give you a story about this. So when I was in college, I had a bad reputation with women in my freshman year. I went from high school where it was small pond and I had kind of ruined my reputation there. And so, I went to like a new area where like no one knew me and I was like, oh, this is like it's like virgin land, right? Not with the pun intended.

But I went to college and I very quickly got the same reputation in weeks. Yeah, wow. And so, I went home depressed and I went to my dad and I was like, man, I was like, how do I get all these people to stop saying that I'm a man whore or whatever and like that I'm just like this guy who just goes around and sleeps with girls because it's preventing me from sleeping with women across. And he said, and I had all these ideas of like, maybe I could do this or I could, like I had all these like strategies and he said, have you considered not acting like a whore?

Not sleeping with women. Yeah. And I was like, no, no, it can't be that. And so, but it's like as a kid, like you, you know, for the parents, they are listening, right? I dismissed it immediately, but you know, on the flight back and in thinking when I'm, you know, sitting there alone in my dorm, I was like, maybe I do need to just stop acting this way. And so, what ended up happening is I decided, I was like, I'm going to be someone that I

want to be proud of. I want to be proud to associate me with me because I want a different caliber of girl and that caliber of girl is not going to go for this, you know, this guy who's always chatting up like I want a good quality girl, not just go for this guy who's always chatting up. Like, I want a good quality girl, not just hop, a good character. And it took basically two full semesters of me acting like a priest basically and just like doing well in school, studying hard, just being a contributing member of society that all of a sudden like the reputation started to change.

But like the New Balance reputation, it took time. And so it's like there's this period of time that you have to go through and be willing, because right now you are living through consequences of actions you took last year, five years ago. And so you have to be able to split it without getting the reward for it. And that's the hard part.

And that's the part that no one's willing to go through. And the longer people know you for one set of characteristics, the longer it's gonna take for them to unlearn that. This is a really good point. So the reason I think it's so hard for people back home, right? So for anybody who's ever left home and you go back and people treat you a certain way. Because they knew you for 20 years. Exactly.

And what's interesting is imagine over, imagine you went to high school with somebody and in middle school, all right. So it's like they had eight years with you and they had every single day, they had hours and hours of exposure. You go back and they have two days a year during the holidays.

To see you. Well, it's like, okay, well, two days out of 10,000 were this way. Yeah, yeah. It's almost never gonna outweigh it. I've given a lot of thought to this because I was like, okay, well, two days out of 10,000 were this way. Yeah, yeah. It's almost never gonna outweigh it. I've given a lot of thought to this because I was like, why can't I change everyone's mind? Because like, I have changed so much.

But the reality was that the exposure required to change their perception of me was greater than the time that I was willing to dedicate to it. You need to spend two or three years with them now to show up as you are, not two days. Exactly. And then the trade-off is, is it worth it? No, it's not.

Which, I don't have any childhood friends anymore. Of course. And then, and so, and I also, I'll make this point to anybody who's in that situation where you're like, man, I don't want to be like these people. I don't want to be like my friends that I have right now, is that you have to be willing to accept that you may lose those friends or you probably will lose those friends, but you will gain many more with the caliber of person that you wanna become

and you'll get caliber of friends that match it. But there is a transition period where you'll have neither. It's tough, man. For about a decade, I felt like I didn't have many friends. I felt like all my childhood high school, college friends, they didn't wanna hang out or when we hung out, they didn't even understand me and they were kinda judging me

and it felt like why are they always talking weird about me behind my back? Why am I not invited anymore to stuff? It's kind of hurtful, right? Totally. But at the same time, those I guess childhood friends that I maybe do have or I talked to once in a blue moon, they've chosen to accept the person I've become and appreciate who I still am, not expect me to be who they once knew. And I can respect them for that and not judge them on their journey and just accept

them for being a friend. Yeah. And I think, well, two parts. One is the people who hate it or the people who don't accept the new version of you, they downplay your success for being willing to take a risk that they were unwilling to take. Because like your success makes them feel bad whether they whether they say it or not It does because humans are comparative creatures. We look at one another that's I mean we learn through modeling We see what someone else does and if they did something that we aren't willing to do and they have something that we don't have We start not liking them because what does that mean about me? And So the what does that mean about me? It's much easier to say, he's changed and he sucks now,

rather than saying, I didn't and I suck. So hard. Because the people who don't know how to say you've grown, say you've changed and they say it like it's a bad thing. And I think the simple response to that is, and you have it. And I think it's being willing to sit in that and be like, I'm okay with this.

And I have lost almost every friend, or rather I could say I have actively cut off every friend that I've had. You know, from the beginning, I have one friend that I still have from middle school, one friend. But basically no one else. And that one friend is because he is a champion, like he's a cheerleader.

He has a different life, but he's just like, dude, go get it. He's not criticizing you. He's not judging you. He's like, you're amazing. And you keep him in his life, in your life. And he's also not a money guy. He's an FBI agent. And so, he's exceptional at what he does. It's just not money related. So, we have this perfect thing where neither of us are, we have no competitive overlap. So, I'm like, how many drug rings did you bust this month? He's like, aw dude, let me tell you, these Syrians, this whole gang I took down.

And so I get to hear this whole thing, he's like, what deals have you done? Because we get to kind of live vicariously. But those relationships are rare. And if you find somebody who speaks well of you behind your back and talks to you to your face. Those are the friends that are worth keeping. And if you can find somebody who can do off both of those without flipping every conversation and making it about

themselves, I think you have somebody who's worth keeping. But most people don't even meet one of those criteria, let alone all three. Speaking of young men and ourselves when we were younger, what would you say are three brutal truths that young men need to hear in order to become more successful in life? You have to be willing to trade the things you love right now for the things you want. And you may not like the price of what you want but you can't change the price. And so, there's all this groveling that goes back and forth for younger men of like basically wishing it didn't cost this much time or cost as much failure or cost as much risk in order

to get to where they want to go. And so, they basically stomp their heels and then retreat inwards into their basement in video games and whatever else rather than confronting their own inadequacy because the first thing you have to do is say, it's my fault. Everything that I have in my life is my fault. But if it's your fault, it's also under your control to change because you cannot change what you do not control. And so, to me, it's taking full accountability. So that's number one.

The second thing is if you want to change your behavior, change your conditions. And so one of the most powerful things that you can do is change who you surround yourself with and where you live. And so if you have an environment of people around you who speak ill of you or like basically reinforce the wrong trains and the wrong actions, there's a reason I left Baltimore and there's a reason you left the right lane. Yeah, yeah. As I went to where I thought I was like, I want to get into fitness.

And so, I was between Miami and Southern California. Those are my, I was like, those are kind of the fitness capitals. I'm going to go to one of those places because I want to do fitness and I I was between Miami and Southern California. I was like those are kind of the fitness capitals, I'm gonna go to one of those places because I want to do fitness and I want to be around the best. And so Baltimore is not the capital of fitness. And so me changing my environment allowed me basically a blank slate to start behaving the way that I wanted without interference because a lot of people have interference in their surroundings. And so I think it's a lot of people have interference in their surroundings. And so, I think it's a lot of times you have to, well, I think this leads to the third

thing, so you change your environment. That's number two. The third is delete everything that is not getting you closer to your goals. And so, I have used that. This razor has not changed in my life which is my probably the two most often asked questions that I have that I like mentally think. I probably think of 10 times, 20 times a day is number one, does this action, this person, this decision increase or decrease the likelihood that I achieve my goals?

Yes or no? Does it increase or decrease? Does this friend who always wants to go out, does you playing Finnish football increase or decrease the likelihood that you hit your goals? And then it's just, it's black and white. It's pretty, like you know, it's pretty like you know. Now, you can make the whole like, but shouldn't I have a, I'm talking about winning. If you want to talk about fulfillment and all the joy and all that stuff, I'm not

the guy for that. Yeah, yeah. Because fulfillment is winning for you. For me. That's your hobby. Your hobby is winning. Where some people have hobbies for joy and fulfillment, you have hobbies which are to win. I like looking back and enjoy it because memories pay dividends in the future. And so suffering lasts only for a moment, but the memory of the achievement lasts forever.

And for me, I love like looking back on what I've done only in so far as it excites me about what's to come. And so delete everything using that question. And the second question, which is my, it might be my favorite question, it might be my favorite question in general, which is what would it take? And the reason I love that question is because it assumes success. So, if you go up to some girl who's way out of your league and you're like, what would it take?

It assumes that she's going to go out with you. What would it take? Or she's gonna say, you need to be, you need to make this much, you need to do this, you need to do this, and she's gonna give you the answers. Right. And then do you want to pay that price? Exactly.

Either you don't like the shoes or you don't like the price. You gotta pay it if you want it. And so what would it take? And it's like, hey, if we have a dealer we're working on, what would it take? Now you can make the decision whether the price tag's worth it, but at least you learn the price. And what I have found in my life is that when I try to answer those questions, like what

would it take for me to be number one in this field? What would it take for us to lead this market? What would it take for me to be the best salesman in this company? The answers are not as crazy as you'd think. And so a lot of people spend most of their time answering questions not worth answering. It's playing games that aren't worth playing. It's like if you play stupid games, you win stupid prizes. And so, no one asks the question before they play the game, is this game worth it?

And so, when you ask the question of like, what is the big goal and what would it take, then you just get to solve for it. And to me, it's just great. If I know what it is, then either I have those resources or I have to use my resourcefulness to get them. But it's under my control. And these are how the big leaps in my life have occurred. When I wanted to get in the gym business,

I was like, okay, what would make it the highest likelihood that I hit my goals? So what I did was I joined, I'd say $50,000, 23 years old, I lived on nothing. I said $50,000 and I traveled to California because I was like all the best fitness people are here. Then I joined a gym mastermind of all gym owners. I didn't own a gym. I joined a gym mastermind without owning a gym.

And he was like, you sure? And I was like, yeah. He's like, why? I was like, well, I think I'll learn from everyone else's mistakes before I start. Smart. Right. So the first thing I? And I was like, yeah. He's like, why? I was like, well, I think I'll learn from everyone else's mistakes before I start. Smart. Right, so the first thing I said, I was like, where do you guys open?

One guy's like, oh, I have a terrible location. I wouldn't have done this. Another guy's like, oh, I might. And then the guy said the best location's like, what was it, okay, well, how many square feet should I have? Oh, how should I organize the gym? What equipment? Oh, no.

Should I buy or lease my company? Exactly, I thought I was gonna, they're like, oh, don't buy those, they're really expensive. I thought I was gonna use them. No one uses them. Oh yeah, girls trip on those, don't use them. And so I was like, uh-huh, uh, don't buy those. They're really expensive. I thought I was gonna use them. No one uses them. Oh yeah, girls trip on those. Don't use them. And so I was like, uh-huh, uh-huh.

I was just taking all these notes. And so then I was like, okay, if I'm around the best gym owners and I'm learning from them, then I can be at year 10 in my career on my first year because if I do what the best people did, I will get what the best people got. And so I've always just focused on what did they do? Forget the energy, forget the manifestation, forget the vibrations and the frequency, like

what did they do? I will do that. And not only will I do that, I'll do way more of it because I don't want to just pace them, I want to beat them. And so like Kobe, it's like if he's working out, if the best guy is working out twice a day, he's like, well, I got to work out three times a day because they're already ahead of me. So if I'm working out twice a day, they's working out twice a day, he's like, well, I gotta work out three times a day, because they're already ahead of me. So if I'm working out twice a day, they're working out twice a day,

then we're gonna advance at the same pace. But I gotta work out three times a day. If this guy's doing $100 a day ad spend, I gotta spend $500 a day. If this guy's doing one piece of content, I gotta make 10, because he's better at it than I am. So I have to make 10 just to make up for my skill deficiency.

And so again, this volatility is a consequence of volume, is that you're typically just not doing enough. And the people who outwork you, they out output you. And I'll give you a really simple example that will demonstrate this, that it's very real. So in a company, so I just took over operating one of the divisions on the media side. And the first day I came in, I was like, OK,

so what are we going to do? And so they're like this. I was like, OK, what are we going to get done by? And they're like I came in, I was like, okay, so what are we going to do? And so they're like this. I was like, okay, what are we going to get done by? And they're like, next meeting, which is like the next Monday is a weekly meeting. I was like, okay, how many hours does that take? They're like, I don't know, probably like four hours to do this thing. Can we do it today? Exactly.

And then I was like, okay, well, it's noon, let's meet at four, I'll give you an extra hour and show me what you did. And then we met four hours later, it was done. And I was like, okay, well, what can you do tonight so that we can do tomorrow morning? And he said this thing. So, we just moved the buck along and in three days, we did three months of work. Because if you think there was 12 actions that had happened and you had a one week cadence, in a very real way, we moved forward at 20 times the pace. And so, a lot of people think that like, it's not speed of activity, it's elimination of waste. There's all these other things that people are distracting themselves with.

And so, if you were that young man, it's you have to recognize the trade-offs that you have to be willing to make. You have to change your environment so you can change your behavior. And you have to delete everything that's not the thing that you want most. And if you can't decide what you want most, then that's what you need to do first. But once you know what you want, then go get it. Yeah. Then what do you think are the most toxic traits

that young men have today that are holding them back? So if we define traits as bundled terms, which means that there's just series of behaviors that bundle into one word, convenient for communication, hard for training, is that, you know what? There's actually just a hundred small skills that you need. And I think demystifying this makes it easier. So it's like, I want to be confident.

Well, confident is an approximation of how statistically likely something is to occur. So in statistics, you have a confidence metric, how likely is this thing to occur? And so, if you want to be more confident, it means you need to do enough repetitions that you can make a statistical prediction that it's likely. If I go up on stage a hundred times in a row, I do the same presentation and I get up there, like, how are you so confident? I'm like, because I've done this a hundred times and I know how this is going to go because I've done it before.

And so, people want the confidence before the reps. But especially in confidence, the proof comes before the pudding. You have to do the reps before people are like, wow. Because you can't fake confidence. You can fake confidence to yourself. You'll know. And as far as I'm concerned in life, I'm the only one I'm trying to impress. And so, if I know I'm fake, I'm the one who in the middle of the night is looking up and like, I can't believe I'm the only one I'm trying to impress. And so if I know I'm fake,

I'm the one who in the middle of the night is looking up being like, I can't believe I'm so full. I would hate that. It's an empty life. It's also living for other people. And so if the toxic trait is people wanting the outcome without the repetition, right?

It's without the price. That's how I say that's number one. Let me see, what are they saying? I'm trying to think of like a really specific thing. Well, the second one is, has everything to do, it's an offshoot but it's entitlement, right? And is fundamentally believing you deserve things and that the world must accommodate you. Why do so many people have that belief? I think parenting in the school system has made it so that like you can have a safe room

and you can have a cry corner and if you think that one plus one is five, like this is emotionally safe for you. I don't want you to feel, it's like but you're gonna, the thing is you can't change reality. All right. And so, you can believe whatever you want but if your actions aren't aligned with how the world works, you're not gonna get what you want and you're gonna be very upset for a long time until you figure out that the universe doesn't bend to your will. Marshall S. Hagan Does it bend to your will though?

John Deere No. Marshall S. Hagan But if you do a set set of actions, it starts to bend. John Deere I play within, I play within the realm of reality. Marshall S. Hagan But it bends to your will once you do the actions that it wants you to create for you to get the results you want. I think that the universe is that I don't anthropomorphize it so I don't humanize it and say it wants anything. Sure, sure, sure.

Right, right. But because of the actions you took over the last 20 years, you were able to create extraordinary results. Yes, based on reality. And if I had said I want to become the best business guy and then sung songs every day, that's not going to be a lie. Now, I can manifest all I want but that's not going to be the thing that makes me the best businessman.

And so, I don't get to set those rules but I can play by them. And I think a lot of men specifically waste a tremendous amount of time stomping their feet demanding that the world be different than it is. And so, to me, that's a loser's mentality. And they then spend more time defending their excuses than defending their ambitions. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive

bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our greatness plus channel exclusively on Apple podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.