The School of Greatness - How To Unlock Your Creativity & Access Your Visionary Mind

Episode Date: December 6, 2024

Today's powerful masterclass features conversations with three exceptional artists - legendary music producer Rick Rubin, acclaimed musician Hozier, and spoken word poet IN-Q. Each shares profound insights about creativity, authenticity, and the intersection of art and mental health. From Rick's intuitive approach to producing music and emphasis on artistic truth, to Hozier's journey of self-discovery and presence, to IN-Q's exploration of vulnerability through poetry - this episode offers a rare glimpse into the minds of master creators and their paths to artistic freedom.In this episode you will learn:Why being concerned with others' opinions is the biggest barrier to creativity and how to overcome itThe delicate balance between vulnerability and confidence required for authentic artistic expressionHow meditation and mindfulness can enhance creative flow and stage presenceThe importance of creating art as a "gift to the universe" rather than chasing external validationWhy processing emotional pain through creative expression can lead to profound healingFor more information go to https://www.lewishowes.com/1703For more Greatness text PODCAST to [phone]More SOG episodes we think you’ll love:Rick Rubin – greatness.lnk.to/1536SCHozier  – greatness.lnk.to/1596SCIN-Q – greatness.lnk.to/1617SC  Get more from Lewis! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Welcome to this special masterclass. We've brought some of the top experts in the world to help you unlock the power of your life through this specific theme today. It's going to be powerful. So let's go ahead and dive in. What do you see is the thing that holds people back the most from being their most creative and best self. I think it's being concerned what other people think

and a feeling of the people who make great things are somehow special and that they're not special. And that's just not true. We're all, everyone has the capability to make great things. And none of us are special. It seems like a lot of people, they're focused on what other people think, like you said. And it almost, it blocks them into this kind of rut feeling, I guess.

They feel like they're stuck in a rut. I don't know if you've heard this before with a lot of your artists, but with me as a writer and an author, I've heard so many people come to me say, I want to write a book. And I asked them, how long have you been had this idea that you wanted to write this book about this thing? And some people will say five, seven, 10 years, but they've been worried about what people think, or they feel creatively stuck in a rut. Do you ever feel stuck in a rut? And if so, how do you personally get out of that? I think taking action is a really great thing and not, not setting up barriers of entry.

Like I can imagine a musician saying, I can't play this song because I don't have the right guitar or I don't have the right equipment to do it. And there are no barriers to entry. There's always a way. I come from a punk rock background. So in punk rock, it was a do it yourself mentality. And I started my first record company not knowing that was something you can do.

It just really happened automatically. I wanted to start making records. I wanted people to hear them. I never knew that you could get signed to a label. I just thought, well, if you want to make a record, you make a record. So I made records and, you know, print up 500 copies of a seven inch single, for example. So I think there's always a way,

you don't have to wait for permission from someone else. I think that's a big part. People who are waiting for permission. To actually make their art. To make their art. Someone has to say, you know, I'll hire you to do this or I'll publish your book if you write a book or set the stage to allow you to do it.

But I don't think that's the way great things are made. When you did those, when you printed those first 500 singles, what was your dream or your vision? Was it, okay, now I'm going to, how do I sell these? How am I going to give them away for free? What was the process for you? Combination of giving away for free and selling enough to be able to make another one.

That was always any of the things I've made. It's always been about sustainability. As long as I can make another one, it's a success. But at this point, you know, you're sustainable probably for life, I'm assuming with the success you've had. So you don't have to make something to try to make your money back, you know, or get your time back or whatever. So what is the vision now?

Well, it's still, I still think in those terms though. I want, I feel like I want to make it where it's sustainable by itself. There's something that feels good about that. That you make something that can live on not because of an endowment. Yeah, that's interesting. I know you're- I don't know why. I don't know why that is. Really?

But that's just my, and maybe it's just the way I was brought up. May just be. What does an artist need to be thinking and feeling at the same time to create great art? I would say thinking is the least part of it. It's much more about feeling and being true to themselves, whatever that is.

Feeling their truths. And how do you know when an artist is being truthful in front of you? It's just a feeling. It's a feeling. I can feel it. Yeah. I think something that you said was, I have no skill set.

It's all intuitive. It's not what's in my head. It comes through me. Yes. So you're not analyzing or thinking about it. You're saying, huh, something doesn't feel right. It starts with a feeling always. It starts with a feeling that analysis comes in later to try to understand either the feeling if there's a reason, like if I'm just feeling something, I can experience it and be fine. If we have to act on the feeling, then it's like, okay, this feels like this. Can I, is there a way to figure out why sometimes you can sometimes you can't. And if you can figure out why, or if you think you know why, then you can say,

Hmm, could it be this, this or this? Let's try those things. See what happens. Do you have a process when you're starting the first session with an artist after you've been introduced and you're say, okay, I'm, let's do this. We're going to work together. Do you have a process where you set a personal intention that you don't tell them, but then also you tell them what the intention is for your time working together?

Um, I'll say when we're starting a new project, I always have anxiety. tell them what the intention is for your time working together? Um, I'll say when we're starting a new project, I always have anxiety. Really? Always. Because I don't know what's going to happen. You know, there's a real question mark when we walk in and start, and I know that it could go a lot of different ways. And I don't have, I'm not interested in having a playbook in advance. I'm interested in seeing where it's gonna go.

And it's scary because it could not go good. And sometimes there's an, you know, some artists have an expectation that I'm gonna do something. I can't do anything, you know? Right. It's like, it's either gonna happen or it's not gonna happen. So, but then usually within, sometimes it's the first day like, it's either gonna happen or it's not gonna happen.

But then usually within, sometimes it's the first day, sometimes it's the third day, sometimes it's the second week, where something happens like, whoa, what was that? How did that happen? And then that might give us a clue. It's like, oh, this is what it wants to be. And that may change also. That may be the first inclination. It could start that way and then it makes a left turn, turns into something completely different.

The work itself tells us where it wants to go. So because we have, the reason it's so scary is because we have so little control over it. That's what's scary. There's no control. No. And if an artist has a big expectation, I need to put out a record that's gonna do well,

I need to make money, I need to make the label happy, whatever it is, my fans need to love this, then that could feel like a lot of pressure. But do you allow that pressure to affect you? No, because I know it's not in the interest of the work. It's like we're all on the same page. Even the people we're ignoring, the record companies, the managers,

the agents, the people who were yelling, I need this, I need this now. Ultimately, for everyone involved, if the artist makes the best possible work that they can, everybody wins. It's just that no one involved in the process understands what it takes for that thing to happen. I had a conversation with a basketball player,

member of the Golden State Warriors, who told me there's all this pressure now to do a lot of stuff on social media. And he said, and it's getting in the way of our playing. Interesting. And I said, well, if you tell the people who are asking you to do the social media stuff, don't you want us to win? So if you want us to win, let us focus on winning.

And he said, they don't seem to care. They want us to do the social media stuff. They want us to distract ourselves from the work of the game. From the flow, from the practice, putting in the reps, showing it. And then I say, well, if then it's up to you, what's more important to please them or to win? Man, this is fascinating. Was there, um, was there, what was the experience for you

where the artist or the band came in and it was the fastest, best flowing process you've ever experienced. Everything was lining up. Authenticity, truth, raw realness was happening every day. And it was also a great success for them personally to have the art be real and honest, but it also landed commercially and took off. The first thing that comes to mind would be Johnny Cash because he had gone, you know, 25 years of not having success and he had been dropped from two labels. And when I signed him, he didn't, he didn't even know why I was interested.

That really was the conversation. It's like, why do you think working with you is gonna be any different than working with anyone else? Like he had given up. And for him to get into it, we recorded in my living room and he would just play me songs on acoustic guitar. And there was an honesty in what was happening there. We didn't know that we were making a record.

At that time, we were just looking for songs. So he was playing me songs. It was almost like a way for us to musically meet each other. He would play me the songs he loved, either from childhood or songs that he thinks he'd like to sing or a song he wrote. And it was just a very honest experience. And then we went into the studio, we picked some of those songs, we went through hundreds

of songs and then picked a handful to try to record. And when we went into the studio with the band, it didn't sound, it didn't have what the living room recordings had. There was some intimate honesty and we'd never heard Johnny Cash that way before. So that led to the first album, which was a solo acoustic album. Again, we didn't set out to make a solo acoustic album,

but it revealed itself as, that's the most interesting thing to do. And that ended up being very successful, and very successful with young people, which he had not experienced since the 1950s. So that was a, and after that, after the success of that album, we made five more albums together and he had confidence based on the experience of the first one, which he expected nobody to care about, really took cold with people.

And then on, I think it was on our fourth or fifth album, he did a cover of Hurt, the Nine Inch Nails song, and that ended up being probably the biggest, maybe the biggest hit of his life, certainly of his later life. Wow. And that was a real revelation. How important is confidence for an artist

in your mind to have? Because I've, I've been around some of the greatest athletes that are freaks of nature, athletically that are gifted beyond anything physically who can do anything in practice. But then they lacked the confidence in a game and they looked like an average player. Yeah. Does that, is that the same thing with, with artists, singers, guitar players, musicians where they could be so gifted, but if there's a time when the pressure is on to record, then on the confidence, does that hold people back? Have you seen that?

I'll say it's not as simple as that because there's a vulnerability required for the artist that if you're confident to the point that it disguises your vulnerability, that doesn't work. So it's like a dance between being wildly open and vulnerable and commitment to do whatever it takes to get your work through. That combination, which is a difficult combination. It's almost like what I'm hearing you say, this is really interesting point. It's almost like you just have to have courage to be vulnerable, which is not really confidence. It's more of like you just got to, If you're unwilling to be courageous with your vulnerability, you just won't be able to share your art. That's true. There's,

I'll say though to get up in front of people and saying, takes a certain amount of confidence. Yes. It's just part of the, it's a hard thing to do. I couldn't imagine doing it. That's true. My, a friend of mine, uh, just, uh, Rachel Platten, she just wrote a song called Fight Song that was really popular over the last six or seven years. But she started a family over the last five years, so she's got two young kids. And I'd seen her play in the past where she was uber confident, but she hadn't played in a while. And so she came out and she was like, guys, I'm actually really nervous. And this is my first time playing, you know, kind of with a man with these new songs

in a while. And I'm revealing myself of these new songs. You know, you could sense this, you know, vulnerability, which was actually beautiful. Yes. It was like, we're rooting for her. You know, she, she messed up a few times, but she kept going and she was like, Hey, I'm going to restart this and thank you guys. You know, but it was like, wow. And it made moments of like awe and magic happen. Yes. It was so cool. Yes. And it's not about perfection. That's the thing.

It's like humanity breathes in the mistakes, you know, in the, it's what, it's what's not ordinary. If it was, if it was machine-like perfect, it's what, it's what's not ordinary. If it was, if it was machine like perfect, it's not so interesting. It's cookie cutter. It's all the same. So it's the, it's the edges. It's the frayed edges that make it interesting.

Talk about transcendence. You talk about manifestation in the universe. I know you're a big meditator. How long have you been meditating for? I learned when I was 14 and, um, it's been a big part of my life the whole time. I can't say I've done it. Continually. But I go through phases of five years on two years off or something might replace it. That's another kind of a meditation.

Like I may go from a TM sitting meditation to learning Tai Chi. And then Tai Chi will be, will fill the slot of my TM time. Transcendental meditation. Yeah. If you could go back to your 40 year old self, what would the, the number one piece of advice be for you at 40? If you can think about where you were then, who you were working with, the projects you were working on, the people in your life, knowing what you went through the last 20

years, what would you tell yourself then? I would always say just have as much fun as possible because we, um, I, I'm a workaholic by nature and I love making things and I love making good things and a great deal of time and effort goes into that. And I'm hard on myself in that way and that I have high expectations. And I think we can have fun too. Yeah, of course, yeah. What brings you the most joy?

I think probably quality time in nature with my family. That's probably the best being in a beautiful place, being close to my family, breathing fresh air, walking on the beach, um, laughing together, reading together, watching movies together, watching wrestling. I like pro wrestling more. Yeah, of course. Pro wrestling with my son, it's fun.

That's great. Are you more of a wrestling fan or are you UFC now? Always been pro wrestling. UFC feels like they might hurt each other. They do hurt each other. That's why I like wrestling. It's more, everybody's on the same side for it to be the best show it can be.

They wanted it to be a win-win. Yeah, yeah. It's a win-win. Yeah, you talked about that in this documentary series about, I love the video of you being the ultimate promoter with the BC boys in a commercial, just being this hype man promoter. How much has, I guess, pro wrestling influenced you as an artist? A lot, a lot, because it's, uh, it's a world where you never really know what's true.

It's a world of mystery and great skill is involved in what they're doing. And there's a story. And it's a story sometimes of people who seem to hate each other. Do they hate each other? They might be best friends. You know, it's like, we don't know. But sometimes they really do hate each other.

And then the matches are different when they really hate each other. But you never know when it is. So there's a sense of, and I think it's more honest than any other form of any other sport or any other form of entertainment. It's funny, I say it's the only legitimate sport

is pro wrestling. Because it's the most like the world. In the world, we don't really know what's true. Everybody has a facade. People put on a, you know, a heirs or a performance. A mask. Yeah, or the politician talks and we don't really know who they are.

They say these things that are often written for them. We don't know. So there's this like performative aspect of the world that wrestling, that's what the world's really like. We say that the wrestling is fake. It's like the world is fake and wrestling is real. That's what it is. I wanted to go back into what you talked about. You mentioned transcendence and I think you mentioned the universe having your back when you asked for an answer

with this you know particular song with system of down what's your thoughts on manifesting and manifesting something you want and alchemizing it into the world do you believe in manifesting do you believe in a you know artists should be thinking in that way or what's your thoughts on it I believe in a, uh, you know, artists should be thinking in that way? Or what's your thoughts on it? Uh, I believe in it, uh, a million percent. It's something that I've experienced before I knew what it was. So I, so when I say it's like, uh,

I feel like it has to do with the purity of the intention behind what you're doing. If your intention is pure and you're doing it for the right reasons, it seems like things tend to work out. Ugh. And that ends up being a manifestation mindset, but it didn't start for me that way.

It just was like, I really believe in what I'm doing. I really care about it. I want it to be the best it could be for me, and I'm excited to share it. And the results have shown me that you can manifest things, it happens. But I'll say when I do it, it's never based on the outcome.

Ooh, what do you mean? I'm never asking for a result. What are you asking for? I'm asking for, to rise to the occasion to make the best thing that I can, for the thing that I make to be great. Great is a vague word. I don't know what great means.

I came to realize recently what great means, but I didn't know, most of my life I was aiming for great, but I didn't know what that was. And I've come to realize that great means, it's a devotional, it's a devotional kind of greatness. It's a gift to the universe. It's a gift to God. Wow.

If you're making, if you're making a gift to the universe. It's a gift to God. Wow. If you're making a gift to God, there's no greater, you can't put more into it than that. Uh huh. You know, you can't, what about the single? What about what someone's gonna say? Who has anything to say if we're making a gift for God? You're putting all of your purest intention say, who has anything to say if we're making a gift for God?

You're putting all of your purest intention into this thing for the universe. Wow. That's where it's at. I didn't know that. I came to realize that recently. Again, my word was greatness. Yeah. Greatness.

That was the word of what I was shooting for. But I've come to realize what it is. Wow, you have a whole, you know, kind of section about greatness and success in the creative act, a way of being, which is, which I love your explanation there. That is fascinating. So greatness for you, what I'm hearing you say is a pure gift of yours to God. Yes. And it's a gift of yourself to God. It's like, this is the best I can do. This is my offering.

This is what I have to offer. If you think of a formula for manifesting as an artist, what would that formula be? I don't think there's a formula. Is there an art to manifesting? I don't think there's a formula. Is there an art to manifesting? I don't know. I think it sounds like a shortcut and I don't think there are shortcuts.

I think it's always a version of doing the work, of finding your way into what it is that the universe wants you to do and then really dedicating yourself. How do you know what the universe wants you to do and when to do it? The right timing because you could be like I have this idea for this thing maybe it's the right time now maybe it's five ten years away from now how do How do we really tap into that knowing? I think it's situational and I think again, if you're tapped into the universe, it tells you,

it directs you. An example, I may have three different ideas that I'm excited about and I kind of get them all going. And then one of them just seems to take off on its own. And one of them, no matter how hard I work on it, it never seems to come together. Can't find the right collaborators, impossible, some obstacles in the way.

When that happens, I feel like it's the universe saying now is not the time. Interesting. Because, you know, I love this, and I also hear the other side of the, I guess, the coin, where, you know, I don't know if you know Ryan Holiday, which the obstacle is the way, is his kind of stoic philosophy of like,

when the obstacle is there, it presents itself, and you also feel like this is something you wanna do, like you've gotta kind of go through that pain and then you know, to overcome it. That is part of it. I'm not saying to turn away from the obstacle, but I'm saying when the obstacles

become insurmountable consistently and there's another path that's going smoothly and you feel the same about both of them. Go for the effortless way. Pay attention, see when is the universe giving you a push? When is the wind hitting your sails the right way? There's something to it. I would never suggest not fighting through the work.

It's grueling no matter what. It's grueling no matter what. It's grueling no matter what. That said, sometimes it feels like now's not the time. Everything you throw at it gets deflected. Right. But this other thing is guiding you. Taking on its own life.

Earlier you asked about what I perceive to be a shortcut. And a shortcut is how little can I get away with doing. And I think that the real question is, how much more can I give to the thing I'm making? What else can I give to it? And thinking in terms of how much more can we do, not how much less can we do. It's not about shortcuts. It's not about getting it done.

It's not about a four hour work week. I loved it. You know, I loved it, but that's not about getting it done. You know, it's not about a four hour work week. I loved it. You know, I loved it. But that's not, it's like whatever it takes for it to be all it could be, commitment and total commitment and dedicating your life to making the best things you can, whatever it is. Yeah. That's beautiful, man. Um, so do you, so you think that as artists, we should be thinking about manifesting, but not in the terms of doing less, but putting the maximum into making it great,

doing anything that's within our power. If, if it doesn't have to make sense, nothing has to make sense. You know, it could be, what I wear these purple socks, I can write a better song. Great. Doesn't matter. Don't question it. Just do whatever works. Do it. Just do whatever works. Do it. How do you navigate putting art out there and being like, oh, I hope people like this and they don't give me negative

feedback versus people are going to like it or hate it or whatever they're going to respond to it. How do you navigate you feeling good about it? No matter what happens to it in the world. I will say before releasing, it's not so much a fear, but there's this sort of, there's this, maybe I don't experience actually where the fear is coming from, but there's a terrible on the ease. And I think usually before releasing an album, um, there's this awful purge of

like cortisol that happens and like, you know, I've talked to a lot of artists about this where like you're in tears before the before it happens and you're exhausted. And the catharsis that you'd hoped you would get from it never arrives. You know, and so there is that. I think there. Has to be. Maybe there's just there is some resource that you pull from

that brings you to a place where you are in. Absolute. Commitment to. The fact that the that the work needs to exist. That it doesn't matter what anybody has to say. Something, the song wants to be written. The song has in some ways, and I sometimes think of it like this when an idea comes through.

The song is asking to be written. It feels ready to be worked on. And to deny it that is, is kind of it's it's going against your nature, what you know, you kind of have to do what you have decided you're here to do. And so there's something that is willing to be made. It's willing itself to be made through you. And it's like you either do it or don't. But don't, sorry, excuse me, don't get annoyed when somebody else has the idea. Because there's a lot of parallel thinking in the world as well too. And somebody else is going to put something similar out.

Exactly, yeah. That actually happened. I mean, artists talk about this, I've certainly experienced it. You have an idea for a song and six months later you hear it on the radio and somebody else has played with the themes that you were thinking of. And we're all living in the same similar societies or, you know, so it's a lot of parallel thinking comes in And we're all living in the same, similar societies, so a lot of parallel thinking comes in because we're all very similar. Simulus is whatever it is. But you have to, there has to, I don't know, there is a resource that you pull from that is just, you know, needs to be made.

And like, what was it like, you know, when you came out with your first song that was a mega hit, what was the feeling before that launched versus the most recent Unreal on Earth? Is the feeling still the same 12 years later? Is there a different feeling at this season of life as an artist before you launched the recent album. And the feeling on the first song, I was so like, I was such an unknown and that I just was watching its uptake slowly,

but surely there was these moments where, okay, it was reaching another audience. So it's like, oh my God, it's like that the video has been seen by 10,000 people. Oh my God, that was a huge deal for me at the time. And I think it was like, it was like on the first page of Reddit or something, which at the time was like, you know, huge. It was huge, you know, and then it was, then it was starting to be played.

I think some of the earliest, I think the first one of the first radio stations have played in the States was like Alabama Mountain Radio. And I am like, it was being shazam. And we were watching like somebody was telling me, oh, yeah, it's just been shazam in like parts of the world, parts of the States that I had never been to the States. I'd never thought that I would, I would be where the music would be heard. At this, at this point, people in Ireland didn't know that I was an Irish artist,

you know? Yeah, honestly, they, they, I think the song had started to be played on Irish radio, but they, they assumed that I was like an American import, you know, that I wasn't, they didn't know that I was from Ireland because I hadn't been releasing music all that long. And then there was this kind of, this kind of dark sort of gospel rock sound, you know, in that song, this kind of swampy sort of vibe. And yeah, so, so it's different, you know, I think that you there's, there's sometimes you miss being the underdog a little bit You know, there's something there's a lot to be said for happens to that feeling right? Yeah having nothing to lose

Naive like oh, this is really exciting. It just yeah. Yeah exactly and feeling like if every every inch you gain is it is it is it is a huge deal and is a big win and you've nothing to lose and you You have you can prove everything, but also if nothing happens, it's like, it's okay. You know, go away, come back when you're ready. You know what I mean? But it's, so it's trying to maintain that.

Maybe there's something to be, you can still maintain that sort of mindset a little bit of like, I think when you, and this is also maybe something that you can, or it's good to practice or to investigate or think about, is when the stakes seem higher or you've like on your second or third release, you feel like if it doesn't do something for you, that it's somehow, you know, it could be a success by the metrics of what you would think beforehand or anyone else's, but we hadn't, you create this idea of, I

don't know, you just, you want more from it or, you know, so that's, How do you navigate that? Like when you launch, you know, an album and it doesn't do the numbers in your mind, you're like, well, I hope it does this many downloads or streams in the first month or year. If it doesn't do that, or if it does do that, how do you navigate that expectation? I think it's always just about, I try to just bring myself right back to, because you do and you look, you work with, you partner up with business, like labels and stuff like that. And they wanted to win. Yeah. And they're very competitive by nature, and it's great that you have a team

that, that, that thinks like that, that wants to bring your work to, to, to a large audience. And, and there's a lot of different ways that different artists will think about this and independent artists, maybe, you know, and, and what I have settled on is that if I believe in the work, I want to give it every chance that it can reach as many years as possible and let those years decide and I just try to bring it back to the work. Do I believe in it? If I believe in it and I love it enough that I feel it's worth releasing, it's

worth being out in the world. I'm at peace with it whether somebody listens to it or it doesn world. I'm at peace with it whether somebody listens to it or doesn't. I'm at peace with it if nobody listens to it. There's some songs I'm quite proud of, such that if they were if they weren't heard by a hundred people, I would say that song is still of the quality and that I wanted it to be on the quality. The work doesn't change whether it's listened to, listened by a million people or a billion, billion times or it's listened by a thousand, thousand people or a hundred people

or ten people. The quality of the work doesn't change. So I just try to bring it down to am I happy with the, with its quality? That's beautiful. I think that's a good lesson for any artist or author or anyone. It's like, are you happy with the quality? Yes. or author or anyone, it's like, are you happy with the quality? Yes, if you have a career or a business around it, sure you wanna figure out a way to make money and survive, but I think you have to be proud of the quality of work, no matter if it sells millions of copies or one copy.

Totally, totally. Does it represent you? That's beautiful. Yeah. Man, Andrew, there's a lot I would love to talk more about. We'll have to have you back on another time. But I want people to check out your new album, Unreal on Earth. I want them to come to watch you live on Tourman, which I'm going to do one of these days.

Please do. They can go to hosier.com for your tour dates and everything like that, is right? Yes, yeah. Tour dates. Unfortunately, not many shows left. Left. You can get notified when you do do more. Exactly. Exactly. I'm curious, in the last decade,

what has been the biggest transformation you've seen within yourself through this journey of success and experience and making all this art? And what is the biggest thing you still struggle with today? and experience and making all this art. And what is the biggest thing you still struggle with today? Stuff I've learned about myself is, I mean, I've done a lot of personal work. I used to think that realizing that creating,

maybe this is one thing I can offer, that being creative and creating, one thing I can offer, that being creative and creating and my relationship with myself was also, you know, my relationship with the work is very often dependent on my relationship with myself. What do you mean by that? That it's a thing, it's like whether it's self-doubt or it's self-criticism, and an internal monologue that is largely negative. Something I took for granted my whole life, it didn't catch up with me until a couple of years ago when I realized,

I honestly felt I was never going to write another song. Really? Yeah, sometimes during the pandemic. I hit of wall where I couldn't move forward anymore. And I felt I'd written my very last song. And I had to come around to, okay, no, this is just, it's the same voices, but they're just louder now because there's nothing to distract me. So I think that was, in the pandemic, that was part of it. You weren't able to tour, you weren't able to go out and distract yourself. Not that tour is a distraction, but you had to sit still now and hear everything coming

in. Yeah. And in some ways tour is a magnificent distraction and it's a job in which you're constantly put at fire. The Moist Tour is a magnificent distraction. And it's a job in which you're constantly putting out fires. And every day is another little crisis. And I still get, I won't say, would you call it stage fright? But I'm still having to regulate my body constantly. I'm terrified, you know what I mean?

Every day is like, Really? Oh yeah, 10 minutes before stage. Before you go on stage? Yeah, I'm like, I can't do this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Come on. Yeah, yeah.

There's an element of nerves. And I'm not able to do this. It's so funny. I was joking with some of the band and this is maybe a magician thing. We had a few weeks break. I was a month into, a couple of weeks after break and I was trying to think.

Now this is maybe, because a lot of playing is muscle memory. You don't think about when it's automatic. But I was trying to think to myself, it's like, how do we play that song on guitar? I said, visualize or I couldn't visualize a fretboard. I couldn't visualize finger movement. And so, but yeah, no, there is, there's, there is,

there is always this creeping voice that's, you know, and it's, look, it's immaterial. You, you, you find your way around it. You find your step over it, you know, and you, and you ground yourself and stuff. But yeah, but in, in, so, but creatively, I think when you are exactly as you describe, there was no distractions like injuring the pandemic. So, but tour is there's plenty. There's always something to do, whether it's press promo, you know, meetings.

I'm oftentimes releasing music at the same time. So it's looking at artwork, media, and it's mixes, mastering. And I'm constantly I'll be honest, like constantly a little bit over what, like just a little bit under overwhelmed, you know, and like the nose is like, you know, you're on the line.

There's a nostril, you know? And like, the nose is like, you know, you're on the line. It's a nostril, you know? You can barely breathe, but I'm... Yeah, yeah. And part of me, you know, is also realizing, okay, is this by design? Am I trying to keep myself up here? Interesting. Because you didn't want to face yourself, maybe.

Yeah, you just, yeah, you operate well in that space, or at least you function in that way. But yeah. Maybe it's not well, but you're like, you're operating. Yeah, you're operating or you're, yeah, you're operating. You're getting everything that needs to be done done. So pandemic hits and that all stops and you have to face yourself. I guess so, yeah. What was the biggest fear that came to you when you weren't able to go on tour,

you weren't seeing people and you had to turn around and face the parts of you that maybe you weren't aware of yet? I can't I can't recall exactly if it was a feeling of fear. There was a there was a feeling of maybe sorrow that came with it and sort of. It's just a loneliness, you know what I mean? Just sort of a very like, you know what I mean? Just a sort of a very, like a, you know, and I think, I think anybody who's maybe prone to sort of depressive episodes or is, you know,

and will be familiar with it, but it's this kind of, I just slowed down in all, in all, in all forms. And I just felt no ruse. I saw no ability to write. And any attempt to make it seemed impossible. I also fully believe, and this is a funny thing about when you're in that mindset, I fully believe that I could not, I did not know how to write a song. Despite all evidence against it, I was like, oh no, I I did not know how to write a song. Despite all evidence against it,

I was like, oh no, I actually don't know how to do this. And so. How many songs have you written at this point? Oh, like, you know, probably, you know, over a hundred or, you know, obviously ones that don't get released. Right. Like, yeah, but like, it's something I do all the time,

but there's something that enters into the mind. And then I realize it's like, oh no, this has nothing to do with this. This is something else. So, again, it's about relationship itself, you know, and so that was something I learned. What was your relationship with yourself like? I think I didn't have much of one, you know, so, and it was more just realizing, okay, I'm going to have to cultivate a very positive relationship with myself, you know, and actually kind of put, you know, begin to address the root of some of this stuff and put an arm around myself. Wow.

And actually, so that was the beginning of, of, of one of the more significant changes in my life, I would say is, is tending to actually, you know, by the time I was 30, actually, like, like tending to, let's say, mental health and a relationship with self, which I had, I had just avoided doing, you know, because I could sort of, I felt maybe I could work my way around it or I could, I could, you know, but once you can't run anymore, you know, it's, I'd sometimes describe it as the hamster wheel had to stop spinning, you know what I mean?

And so you then you're forced to sit in your little cage. You know what I mean? So, and kind of look around and take it in and go, okay, something not right about this. What is the thing that you realized about your identity with yourself or your relationship to yourself when you no longer were chasing or on tour or distracted by facing yourself? I think it was, I'd say you could say it was defined by a large, I had a very large,

largely a combative relationship with myself so I was absolutely at war with myself constantly. How did that look like on a daily basis? What would that mean? It's like I couldn't have a thought without an opposing thought, you know? So it's like my brain was kind of split in two that I'd have a thought and then a thought to combat with that. So-

Like, no, that's not real, that's not true. This is the truth. This is real. And then- Yeah. Like back and forth. Yeah. Or it's, but when, at times I'm, I guess, like your state, you're not always, sometimes you're a seven, some

days are a three, some days are a nine, some days are, you know. And creatively, it's like, that could really slow me down because it's like, I think this is a nice idea. I think this is beautiful. No, it's not. So I couldn't hold with one thought at the same time, oftentimes. So it was challenging. I won't go into the nitty and the gritty of like my whole experience, but that's probably for another, you know. But no, it definitely

pulled roadblocks up, you know. So that was a big change when I started to address that. How did you navigate the process? And I'm assuming there wasn't, I mean, I don't know, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't know if in Ireland, growing up, there was a lot of talk around mental health and having a good relationship with yourself and a healthy identity. And, you know, I don't know if there was or not,

but how did you learn to develop that then during that time without having any of those skills or tools for the first 30 years of your life? There wasn't there wasn't really you know and and especially it's not something even I mean more so my parents generation would have had any sort of not not really you know and not in a kind of a, this is something we can talk about. It's a day to day thing, you know. Can I suck it up and let's not talk about it

and keep moving forward and just, everything's good. Very 1970s, you know, very 70s. But I'm very grateful to sort of, to have access to more, to be more present in the day to day with my actual lived experiences as opposed to just, yeah, just having this kind of... Wow, man. Yeah.

I mean, I'm really grateful you're talking about this because I've read a whole book called The Mask of Masculinity. Seven years ago now? Yeah. of masculinity. Seven years ago now, yeah, where because growing up I felt like I had to be, you know, this strong man. I could never cry. I can never show my emotions in school, sports, and it tormented me inside. You know, it tormented me emotionally, feeling like I had to wear a mask to fit in and belong, but it wasn't my truest authentic self. And when I hit about 30, that's when I started to unwind and start to navigate the therapy myself and reflect and heal. And it's, it's, it was

extremely challenging. It's probably the hardest thing I've ever done is to let go of those masks and open myself up to myself, turn around and look at all the parts of me that I was ashamed of or afraid of or scared of or insecure of and actually acknowledge them and look at them and start to heal the little boy inside of me that still had a lot of guards up and fears and insecurities and doubts and shame and angers

and resentments and all these different things that I was not proud of, and started to integrate my current self with my younger self. There's it. And mend the wounds, the emotional or psychological wounds that were stored in the body and the

nervous system. Yeah. Yeah. To create alignment. Yeah. With the present and the now. And it was the most challenging thing I've ever done in my life. But it set me free.

And as I'm sure you're in right now, healing is a journey. And I'm 10 years deep in the healing work and I've never felt more free, also knowing that you can't just stop doing the work. Yeah, yeah. Like I still go to therapy every month, I still show up and allow myself to talk about it and process things in a healthy, conscious way, in a safe way.

And I think it's really inspiring to hear you talking about this because I can only imagine the amount of pressures that artists feel to create art and I think a lot of artists tend to create from pain or suffering it seems like rather than peace and joy. But it's probably challenging because you're sharing it with the world, but you're also still need to deal with it yourself and just a, uh, probably a messy process. Yeah.

I, the whole sharing from, or writing from, also, let me just, I just want to address, it's like, thank you. Thank you for, for, for sharing that. And it's, it's, uh, it's, it. And it's beautiful. It's also very similar to what you describe. And I think I was 30 also. It took me 30 years of living in a way where I realized, oh, I can't do this anymore.

I can't live like this anymore. And I've waited too long to feel like I can cope. You know what I mean? And then... It isn't interesting that no amount of success or money or fame will give you that peace or freedom that you're looking for. Yeah, 100%.

Isn't that interesting? Yeah. But I think a lot of people, I don't think that's what you were doing. I don't think you were chasing that. You were being an artist and it took off. Yeah. But I think a lot of people in society and the world are looking to accelerate their

career to have more status, to make more money, to have flashier things or success to fulfill a part of them that is insecure or afraid or doubting something. And the more I did that and the more others do that, it doesn't solve the problem. You still have to turn around and look at yourself at some point. Totally. And I think it's largely unconscious and this driving, you know what I mean? But that sort of thing of dry. And I do think about this a lot, whether would I be driven to be, you know, because surely the work is his question. And surely the work is enough.

Like, if I just if I just loved songs and I just wanted to write them, do I need everybody to hear them? You know, what's what's what's the point on tour? Why do this? Why do you know? Why did I why did I need it? So there is I sometimes wonder, you know, what part of me needed to be witnessed, you know, or what, what, you know, and I think a lot of people who are driven towards work in the public view.

And I'm not saying everybody, I'm just saying generally there is, I think you might be correct in that there were there is a there. All of us are driven in some way from maybe some unobserved place that in some way that all of us think, okay, if I get this thing or I do this thing, all my problems will be solved. We all imagine this picture in our heads of that arrival point that just never comes. Or you get there, you'll see the picture and it'll align with the picture in your mind. And then you input the feeling is not there. Or it's still not enough. Yeah.

Still want more. Are you still comparing to what your peer might be doing? Oh, they're getting this opportunity, right? Yeah, totally. And it's something you shared about that thing. It's kind of that self-parenting thing of like getting relationship with yourself as a child. And a friend of mine once described, described it quite, quite beautifully.

I have to say of like getting to this point in that process of then looking out from some moment of their life and just reminding, pausing to remind themselves to invite their child to watch it with them. And to to stand in space, whether through the window of their of their home or at some event that they were at and to imagine in their mind's eye that their child was there to say, hey, look, you know, look where we are. You did this, you know. And I'm quite moved by that just to just to bring your child into that. Yeah, because there's some there's some sometimes there's a there's You know, and I'm quite moved by that just to just to bring your child into that.

Because there's some there's some sometimes there's a there's this sort of switch that happens where we think, no, I took I took myself away from these circumstances. And I did all of this on my own. But to turn around to your kid and say, hey, you know, I want you to see this. Wow. How how great you did, you know, and how you did this, you know, we did this together. Isn't this cool? And just to let your kids sort of smile at that. That's beautiful. Yeah. And I think it's that one, I think that's a, that is a life-changing relationship thing, you know, I think with yourself, if you can do that. And, but again,

yeah, I mean, I had no language for this until I was after a few years ago. Yeah, till a couple of years ago. So I'm still why my reluctance also to speak too much on it is because I'm so early in it, you know. Yeah. Wow, man, this is beautiful. I'm so happy you're talking about this though. And don't feel and you know, don't feel you need to open up about things here or anywhere Until you feel you've processed things enough and you may never need to do that publicly either. It's just I appreciate it Yeah, yeah, it's not a it's not a pressure here for that in any way But it sounds like you are in a journey of creating a healthy relationship with self. That's what I'm hearing you say

Yeah, I think I think so. I think so. I'm also I'm hearing you say. Yeah, I think, I think so. I think so. I'm also, I'm realizing that it's, it's also imperative for the work I want to make. And it's also, it's like, it's, it's like to not do it. I think whatever, when you start on, on that, by the time you're ready to sort of do your own little work on yourself, you're ready to realize that not doing this isn't an option, you know, or not, you know, or it's an option, but you've done that, you know what I mean? Or for what, what's ahead of you and what it is that you want for your life.

And you feel the, the experience of living that you would like to get to. It's like, you'd realize, okay, I just kind of have to do this. What do you think, Andrew, is available for you, emotionally, internally, and externally, in the world, as you continue to navigate this healing journey for yourself, what do you feel like is available for you or your mission? I think this is maybe just necessary for the work as well,

too, for being creative. I just want to walk and step with myself, and in a way that feels aligned with myself and aligned with the work. Yeah. And to, I guess, to feel at peace in whatever the work is that needs to be made. Have you ever been out of alignment with yourself

in this last decade with anything you've created or opportunities you've created or opportunities you've said yes to where you fall afterwards, that's not really what I wanted to do or, but I did it for ego or because whatever reason. It happens. I won't give examples. It happens. Or you catch yourself.

You catch yourself in a thought of like, yeah, there's always this sort of one more stone to turn. You know, it's like, I always approached things with like, leave no stone unturned. It's like, you know, just do everything. Yeah. Every opportunity. Yeah, a little bit.

Yeah. I can be draining exhausting. It can be draining. Yeah. And learning to say no to stuff is something that I'm still cultivating a relationship with. Yeah. Or a habit of.

I think, yeah. Or I'm a real, cultivating a relationship with or a habit of. And I think this is, I'm proud of this trait in myself, but that extra hour that I'll put in or that extra 30 minutes or that extra hour, I can hyper-focus on something in those last few. But what happens is sometimes I'll agree to do something. I'll be fully in my mind of like, I do want to do this. It's like, will you do a little bit extra here and add more rather than take this break? Will I use this time to work?

And it's like, yeah, I'll do that. I'll do that. And then in afterwards, I realized, okay, why am I, why am I feeling exhausted? Why am I burned out? And now I can't function, you know, I can't work as I want to work. So I do wanna address, hopefully. Wow. I think I read that.

This has been a powerful section, so I'm grateful we're talking about this, but I have a question about a couple other things around your performance experience. I feel like, I hope they get to come watch you perform live sometime because I feel like it's a spiritual experience for the audience to watch what you do. Um, I'm curious for you.

What has been the most spiritual experience you've had while performing on stage where you felt like something is different here. I'm feeling something different. Uh, there's an energy that is elevated at a different level than I've ever been to, or maybe I'm seeing myself from a different place or I'm forgetting the words, but I'm singing the word. Like, was there ever a spiritual experience for you that was so big and awe-inspiring while performing?

There's definitely moving, moving experiences. I was going to joke that I think the spiritual experiences for it to be in the crowd. I've been in shows and I've, and I've, I've been in such elation. I've been like so ecstatic and kind of lifted by being in crowd energy and all enjoying the same thing and maybe I was going to make a joke. It's like the preacher is the least spiritual of all people. You know, the person at the top,

it's everyone else is engaging in a spiritual experience. The half preacher is I'm just kidding. But I think when I'm on stage there's a kind of a flow state, you know, that you hope to come into. And that's another thing where it's like calming mind-lane. And this is all connected. It's all connected with mental health. It's all connected with like wellness, but then also like mindfulness as well, too. And mindfulness was a big change for me. It was realizing how many conversations were going on,

how on present my mind was. You know, even sometimes when I was on stage and wanting to just. Yeah, it can happen. It can happen. And realizing I, you know, have to remain grounded on stage, remaining present on stage. So you're not. not so meditating before shows, I find really, really helpful. How would you get distracted on stage before?

It can happen where, again, if I'm releasing music, there's a lot of emails that I haven't unanswered. I swear to God. Right before you're like, oh, thinking about it. Yeah, but you could be on stage in the middle of a song, playing a chord and singing lyrics. And in your mind, I'm not present in that. I'm thinking it's happened where I'm like, I didn't email back.

Come on. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Holy cow. Yeah. Oh, no. You're doing laundry lists in your head while you're in the middle of like singing a song and the crowd are doing their thing. And how is that even possible? How do you stay? I mean, how can you create a performance while thinking about the email in the middle of like singing a song and the crowd are doing their thing. How is that even possible? How do you stay, I mean, how can you create a performance while thinking about the email you gotta send to Larry and management or something?

It's not great. It's like, and I don't, I think the show, potentially my worry is that the show, I think because it's muscle memory, you just can do it. But it's, it doesn't, you don't feel great about the, about the show, you don't, because you weren't present. You know, so it's been a while now since I would, there's also that's kind of

before that's when my mind was totally just like haywire. And so mindfulness, you know, meditation and stuff and super help that helps you keep, keep you present now on stage. On stage, yeah. I think creating and sharing my art has brought me more clarity, more peace, more presence, more compassion, more self-. And it's made me feel connected to others in a way that nothing else has. Yeah. I would say emotion is energy in motion. So it has to move. And if it

doesn't move, it gets trapped inside of us. And it can become disease, you know, disease, or you take it out on somebody in traffic for no reason. Right. So you have to find ways to move the energy and to share the stories that are trapped in your mind and in your heart and your body. And there's many modalities to do that. You do breath work, you can, you know, do yoga, you go to boxing even, and have an intention behind your practice.

You can, I don't know, meditate, go to therapy. There's plenty of avenues, but one that is underused is creativity. You can create and move the energy, and you can alchemize those things that are trapped inside of you so that they transform into something else and you can feel energetically lighter and more free. What is the poem that you've written, whether it be recently or in the beginning of your creative process that is giving you the most healing personally, like when you wrote it, you felt you were healing every time you read it or perform it. You feel like you're healing. What is that poem?

Well, I have two immediate answers that come to mind. The first one is a poem about my father not being around and ultimately finding forgiveness. But I think that that's too easy of an answer. Okay. And the real answer is going to sound cliche, but it's everyone. And then the next one, the one that hasn't been written, because it's the most current and in real time to my life. And whatever it is that I choose to create around is something that I need to express. It's a breadcrumb trail that I am following. I'm the first person in my audience. So I'm not thinking what other

people want to hear. I'm paying attention in my daily life, to when I get moved, when I get inspired, when I get pissed off, and I pluck it out of reality, and I put it down on paper. And then if I go back to that beginning place, the rest of the poem will almost write itself if I give it enough time and space. So every single one is a healing process. And it's one of the reasons I like to facilitate for other people to do the same thing, because if they choose something moving and meaningful, it can be surprisingly healing. Yes. You have another quote or poem that you put online that says,

how do we talk about the problems without feeding them? If we ignore them, we most likely keep repeating them. If we explore them, we run the risk of reinforcing them. So how then do we get down to the source of them? So if we talk about our problems or write about them or create about them, are we feeding the problem or are we solving the problem by processing them? How do we not recreate old traumas or memories or wounds by sharing stories over and over again that we're trying to heal from? That is a great question. What you have to do is you have to

hold two truths in the same space at the same time. Give me an example personally. Holding on and letting go. When I wrote the piece about my father, it was a piece about my anger and ultimately forgiveness and gratitude. But I wasn't able to actualize it until many, many years later. It took me a long time to catch up with the piece. So the piece was almost like a prayer. You have to purge and pray simultaneously.

And if you do, I promise you, you will wind up feeling like a different person on the other side. And then when you share it with somebody and you're unconditionally loved and seen, to really like see and be seen, to be willing to be open, to be willing to be vulnerable from a place of strength,

it's scary as and it is always worth it. Wow. So when did you write this poem about your dad? I think I was in my mid 20s. Really? Yeah. So like 20 years ago?

Something like that. Something like that. 40, 45. Yeah. So when you wrote it, how long did it take for you to fully feel at peace with the relationship you had with him or lack of relationship you had with him? How long did it take for you to be like, I'm at peace with this? I forgive. I'm at

peace. Well, I think people think that peace is a destination, or like a product. Piece is a process. There's stages of peace. There's layers that you have to keep uncovering within yourself. So right now I can say, I am as fully at peace as I have ever been. I can't say that I'm fully at peace. But one thing that I know about my life is every single thing that has ever happened to me, whether I understood it or not,

in real time or in retrospect, has become a part of the quilt of who I am. I don't like to compare circumstances, I don't like to compare pain, but I've had a lot of pain in my life. And everything that caused me pain is a part of my identity now. So if I reject that thing, I'm rejecting a part of who I am. Wow. Yeah. And so you have to accept it in order to integrate it, in order to alchemize it, in order to move on with it.

What's the most painful thing that you've had to overcome emotionally or internally that maybe it took you a long time to overcome or maybe it just was a really painful thing to overcome and you really wish didn't happen in the moment and maybe you still don't wish but you know, you wouldn't be the identity you are and the man you are without that pain. I think there's a lot of them that come to mind. I'm not gonna share some of them

because I'm not ready to put them on display yet. But I go into a lot of those stories in the album and ultimately in the journal. You know, when I created the Never Ending Now album, I wasn't sure whether or not I wanted anybody to hear it. I know. Remember, you know, I was there. Because you were one of the few people that I sent it to, yeah, and was willing to trust because of your integrity, because of our friendship and because I love you. And I know you've been

through real things. Yeah. And so I was like, okay, but it's scary putting it out there. 100% Yeah, I'm taking my own medicine. You know, so I was like, all right, let me I finished this thing. This work of art that was like. A reflection of my path to self-love and love with a partner through poetry and this conversation that was very intimate that I had with my wife. Yeah. And then I was like, I don't know that I want to show this to people

or even weirder monetize this thing and leave it open for people to criticize it, to judge it, to validate it, to compliment it. It didn't really matter what their response was. I didn't want to externalize myself worth that way. Because it was so close to my heart. And then I was like, all right, I'm gonna send it to like five people. And I sent it to five people, including you. And Mike Posner, who's a great friend. And Mike was the first person that got back to me. And my criteria for sending it out was, okay, if one person hears the album and hits me back and says, Hey, this was

moving and meaningful to me. Like this landed. Then I would put it out. But if everybody was like, Yeah, this is good. I really like it. I think you should then I wasn't gonna do it. And so Mike hit me back I wasn't going to do it. And so Mike hit me back right away and he was like, literally he goes, if you don't put this album out, he said, I'll pry it out of your cold dead hands. And then I sent it to you guys and you listened to it and had, you know, similar but different response.

Then I was like, all right, let me lead by example, even though it's hard and scary. Why is it so hard for most people to put out something that is their art or their expression, but also has sadness, pain, loss, embarrassment, tied to it in some way? Why is that so challenging for anyone let alone artists? that so challenging for anyone, let alone artists? Because they're scared to be rejected for truly showing us who they are. But the thing is, like, if I would get rejected, if I put this project out, and people don't respond to it, or worse, they really don't like it, then at least I know they don't like something

that's really me. I mean, I know that the art is separate from me, it's not really me, but it is as close as tracing paper could come when I made it. Right. And so I'm like, all right, if they don't like it, at least I know I showed up. Rather than making something that's perfect,

that everybody's gonna love. And then they say, wow, I love this thing and I love you, but I don't even feel it because I was never there. Yeah. It wasn't fully authentic. It wasn't fully you. Yeah. Interesting. How fully you. Yeah, interesting. How do you do that?

Like, for example, I was thinking about many things that you have shared over the years driving over here and the courage that it took to do that. Well, what was and is your process? I think a lot of it was when I started opening up about vulnerable things to individuals, to friends, to family, and then kind of publicly, you know, my expression to the world in different ways, I think I was so depressed.

You know, this line from like Jim Carrey comes to me where it's like depression is like you needing deep rest from the character you've been playing, something like that. It's like you are depressed because you need deep rest from the character you've been playing. It's like you've been playing, something like that. It's like you are depressed because you need deep rest from the character you've been playing. It's like you've been wearing some mask, you've been putting on some identity that's not truly you. Maybe parts of you are out there, but not all of you.

And so a lot of me was out there, but there were other parts of me that were afraid if you or anyone actually knew who I was, what I'd been through, what had happened to me, would anyone like me or love me? I was afraid if you or anyone actually knew who I was, what I'd been through, what had happened to me, would anyone like me or love me? And that was the ultimate fear. If people truly knew, they would never like me.

And then I would be alone. And then I would die alone and suffer for the rest of my life. It's kind of the fear that I had. And so I think I just felt like I'd rather be alone and no one like me than everyone know, you know, just parts of me and not all of me. And I think it got to that point when I hit 30 that I realized there were parts of me that people weren't aware of. And I wasn't willing to face them myself, let alone share them with other people. And that just wasn't the life I wanted to live anymore. Now it was scary to on the other end because I didn't want to live alone

and I want to have people not like me or love me or accept me. But I think that's the risk probably every artist has to take to put their expression out there that you may not be liked or understood or loved. You may be criticized or hated or whatever might be, you know, taken advantage of for who you truly are. And I think that's the biggest fear. But I'd rather feel free and have no friends than be a prisoner and have everyone like me. I very much relate to that. I have a line that says, you have

to be willing not to be liked in order to be loved. Otherwise, it's your representative they're thinking of. It's like that disguise thing that you're talking about, that character that you're playing, and you're doing it for good reasons. Survival, you know, mental, emotional, physical, spiritual. If you felt unsafe in your life, that's where the character came from. Exactly. But the thing is, it's exhausting to walk around with all that armor. Draining.

What was that? What's that poem called? That you were just, I think it's called Birdsong. You know, I never really like name my, my pieces until I actually put them out. Can you share that one? You perform that one. Do you have that one? Yeah, I actually do. The birds aren't singing to win a Grammy.

They're not trying to go platinum through their marketing or planning. They're just jamming. I listen without even understanding. The truth without agenda is authentically astounding. It makes me think of cheetahs. They don't run for our approval. They don't judge their spots or contemplate laser hair removal. It makes me think of wolves.

They don't howl for validation. They don't have to get the perfect pic to post on their vacation. It makes me think of eagles. They're not soaring to impress me. Although once I saw a dolphin back flip over a jet ski, my point is neither one of them would sell me on Etsy and I doubt a porcupine would ever try to come off sexy. Humans are the only animals pretending to be something that they're not. Wow. Why are we ashamed of what we've got? We

should strut chest out, head up. Let's be proud of ourselves for once. Isn't it exhausting sticking out your butt and sucking in your gut and for what? It's a waste of energy. I'm giving up in this moment, I'm enough. In this moment, you're enough. In this moment, we're enough.

I'm dismantling my image. We are perfect in our flaws. Birds don't care whether we listen, they don't wait for our applause. I have built a lovely prison, but I live behind the wall. So if love is my religion, I'll escape when freedom calls. You have to be willing not to be liked in order to be loved. Otherwise, it's your representative they're thinking of. But to truly be yourself, you have to let go of what was.

The past is like a prison. It's an echo repeating just because, cause, cause, we are many people in our lives. So I'm not one to judge, but if they love one part of you, it's limited to what that does. I want your whole soul. I have no goal. Show me the unseen stuff. Don't invite me over only after you have cleaned up. Perfect makes me want to kick my feet up. No one's living

in a catalog Ikea dreamed up. Have you ever seen a lion chase 100 zebras? Have you ever seen a turtle hide inside a shell? A caterpillar doesn't know that she'll become a butterfly. So if you go to heaven, are you still aware of hell? So if you go to heaven, are you still aware of how? Wow. When you write that one, I don't remember. Is it like a few years ago or is this like a decade ago? Do you I mean, no, it's like a few years ago.

It's more recent. Yeah, I was on the phone with a friend of mine and the birds were just like really loud. And during the conversation I said something about the birds aren't singing to win a Grammy. Wow. And then I thought, you know what? I like that. That's a good, that's a good life.

Pause the conversation. I wrote it down and then started to build on it later. Of all the poems that you've written and performed, how many of them talk about love? I think all of them in some form or fashion, but I think some of them are self-love, some of them are romantic love, some of them are love of God, some of them are our love of, uh, humanity, nature, all of it. What would you say? How long have you been doing poetry? Would you say like, officially, you know, that's part of your thing. Not just like, I did it when I was like seven and a little bit here and there, but like what was the year where you're like, Oh, I'm doing this consistently.

Do you remember? I mean, I think I'm past 30 years, 30 years. Yeah. It's like one of the longest, at least internal relationships of my life. You know, my, my relationship with rhythm and rhyme. Yeah. What do you feel like has been the biggest lesson around self-love in the last 30 years of writing and performing

poetry that you've discovered and had to learn. Well, it's something that I try to teach other people, like when I facilitate for the poetry workshops in person and why we created this journal, uh, in partnership with passion planner to scale those workshops without me having to be there. I automatically take away anybody's blocks by saying don't try to make something great. Make something true. And if you make something true, it will automatically be great. And I'm telling people stuff that I need to relearn

over and over and over again, because if I sit down, and I say, I'm going to make something great. I'm just getting in my own way. I'm turning my back on the muse. I have to be willing to just take the ride. Some of the best poems for me are poems where I'm surprised at where they go. Really? Yeah, because I don't like get overly strategic

before I start writing. I just start in some sort of a spark and then see what fire it turns into. So it might be, okay, I heard the birds sing and you thought of this idea, you know, maybe you're on the phone with a music person and you're like, Oh, they're not singing to win a Grammy. And you're like, okay, where could I take this in other areas of life? Is that kind of how it starts or?

Yeah. I had the birds are this the wolves, this the bears, the, this, you know, it's like, let's keep the analogies going. And then, yeah, it's like basically you're you're building railroad tracks and You're the railroad tracks and you're the train and you're the conductor uh-huh, and you're the beginning middle and And the destination wherever you wind up And you're also none of those things because you're the observer.

Wow. So it's a spiritual practice creativity. You have this other. Do you call them poems when you put something online like Instagram post? Is that like a short poem or is that like a phrase within a poem? Usually. Well, yes, it's usually a phrase within a much larger poem, which is to be quite honest, very annoying to me. You know, I want of course, please follow me

on Instagram. But it's like, I always feel like it's a truncated version of what the art is. And that's why I'm excited to put out actual like, finished pieces that people can experience on their own time. So it's a great window into my work, but I'm not sure snippets. It's not the full thing. You have this, you know, poem within a poem, I guess you call it about love that you shared recently and said love is not a guarantee it will come and it will leave. It relies on your belief a guarantee it will come and it will leave it relies on your belief so it will bring you to your knees. Love is

weak love is lost. Love is grief. Love is loss. Love is risk. Love is real. But love is worth the pain we feel. Where did that come from? Let me say the next line. Yes. And I won't let the fear of losing you limit how I'm loving you. Oh my gosh. Can you share that whole poem? Yeah.

Yeah. Let me actually give you the behind the curtain. Context. Give me the context. So I was doing this collaboration piece. Um, and it was like a marketing team and a brand that were involved in this project. I don't want to go into the specifics because it really doesn't matter. But they had liked this particular poem that had already been written.

And it ends, save the day with love. So we're on this like planning call about the piece of art collaborative project that we're doing. And one of the guys goes, hey, is there any way we can change the final word? Because he goes, love is a bit soft. And he goes, I wanna end on something that has more like strength and pizzazz. And I was like, No, because it's not your

poem. First of all, no, respectfully. Second of all, I don't look at love as soft. I said I look at love as hard. And he goes, oh, okay. And then the conversation ended and I hung up and I wrote this piece. Love is not soft, love is hard. Love is not smooth, love is scarred. Love is not perfect, love is flawed. Love is not quiet, love is loud.

Love is not pride, love is proud. But love is not certain, love is proud, but love is not certain, love is doubt. And love is not leaving, love is turning around, love is learning to fight for the middle ground. Love is not gentle, love is rough. Love is not fragile, love is tough. Love is not thinking that love is enough. So I choose to love you harder from the moment I wake up. Love is a revolutionary act. Love is an attack. Love is not abstract.

Love is a fact. Love is saying yes when I want to say no. Love is saying stay when I want to say go. Love is staying high even when I get low. Love is going with the flow, holding on and letting go. Because love is not easy. Love is complex. Love is not right or wrong.

Love is context. Love is not black or white. Love is progress because love is not a product. Love is a process, yes? So in the simple moments when the chaos fades away in the silence of the evening or the empty of my day, I remember what it feels like to give my heart away and think how lucky I have been to get to love someone this way and how lucky we still are to get to love someone this way. It's a miracle to be alive.

That's why I have to say love is not a guarantee. It will come and it will leave. It relies on my belief. So it will bring me to my knees. Love is weak, love is lost, love is grief, love is lost, love is risk, love is real, but love is worth the pain I feel and I won't let the fear of losing you

limit how I'm loving you. I'm gonna love you harder. It's a privilege to be hugging you. I'm gonna love you harder more than ever before. I'm at peace with knowing love is war. That's what we're fighting for. So love harder. First yourself, then your family, your friends, your co-workers, your neighbors in your community. Then try to love a stranger. Try to tap into your empathy. Imagine that you've known them and protected them since infancy.

Now try to love the people that you don't love at all. Even people you don't like, they probably need it most of all. And if you can't love them big, see if you can love them small. See if you can hold compassion for the holes that they are, and they are. But love is not soft. Love is hard. Love is scarred. Love is flawed.

Love is loud. Love is proud. Love is doubt. And since love is most important when we do not know how, I will choose to love you harder in the never ending now. Wow. Oh my God. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally as well as ad free listening then make sure to subscribe to our greatness plus channel

exclusively on Apple podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.