The School of Greatness - Mark Manson: The Psychological Skills To Master For Fulfilling Relationships, Inner Peace & Abundance

Episode Date: March 26, 2025

Get my new book Make Money Easy here!Bestselling author Mark Manson returns for his fourth appearance on the School of Greatness to reveal why self-awareness might be our most critical psychological skill. From torpedoing his early relationships to building a marriage that thrives on acceptance rather than change, Mark shares the vulnerable journey that transformed his approach to human connection. His refreshing take on emotional development—backed by both science and personal experience—offers a roadmap for breaking free from unconscious patterns that sabotage our happiness. Whether you're struggling with people-pleasing tendencies or finding yourself trapped in toxic relationships, this conversation delivers actionable wisdom that will transform how you communicate, set boundaries, and ultimately find peace in a world that constantly demands more.Sign up for Mark’s NewsletterCheck out Mark’s YouTube channelListen to Mark’s podcastIn this episode you will learn:Why self-awareness is the foundation of emotional intelligence and how to develop it when your mind is actively trying to deceive youHow to receive critical feedback without taking it personally by separating your identity from your actionsThe psychological skill of creating boundaries that free you from people-pleasing while maintaining meaningful relationshipsWhy acceptance—not trying to change others—is the secret to long-lasting intimate relationshipsHow to leverage confirmation bias (what some call "manifestation") to achieve your goals in a practical, science-backed wayFor more information go to https://www.lewishowes.com/1750For more Greatness text PODCAST to [phone]More SOG episodes we think you’ll love:Jerry Wise – greatness.lnk.to/1747SCElizabeth Gilbert  – greatness.lnk.to/1681SCJefferson Fisher – greatness.lnk.to/1737SC Get more from Lewis! Pre-order my new book Make Money EasyGet The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

I have a brand new book called Make Money Easy. And if you're looking to create more financial freedom in your life, you want abundance in your life, and you want to stop making money hard in your life, but you want to make it easier, you want to make it flow, you want to feel abundant, then make sure to go to makemoneyeasybook.com right now and get yourself a copy. I really think this is going to help you transform your relationship with money this moment moving forward. We have some big guests and content coming up. Make sure you're following and stay tuned to

this episode on the School of Greatness. It's unrealistic to expect that you're gonna connect or see eye to eye with every single person that you ever meet. You actually don't want everybody to be your friend because then you don't really stand for anything, right? Ooh, that's interesting. A prolific author and content creator, he wrote the infamous book... The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F***, which many consider to be the generation-defining self-help book... ...sold over 10 million copies. The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F***. I'm really trying not to say the word-defining self-help book sold over 10 million copies. Subtle art of not giving up.

I'm really trying not to say the word, Mark Manson! Woo! There's a lot of statistics around kids cutting off their parents, and it really makes me uncomfortable because you can have really terrible parents, but you can manage that relationship and manage your exposure to them

in a way that you don't have to eliminate them from your life permanently. Yeah, you've created a boundary. Exactly. I've got a whole rant about manifestation. Which my audience loves manifestation. I know it's going to trigger everyone. I know they do. Trigger warning coming in on the manifestation. Let's hear it.

Welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness. Very excited about our guests. We have my friend Mark Manson in the house who's been on the New York Times bestseller list for I think six years now. Is that right? About six years off and on, 360 weeks. If you add everything together, it's like 330, 340 weeks. Oh, okay, I gave you that extra few weeks, okay.

But it's amazing what you've created, number one New York Times bestseller in multiple times. And I love seeing your journey. Yeah. What were you gonna say? I was gonna say, this is my fourth time on the show. Or time. Let's go, baby.

Has anybody been on more? Can I be the greatest school of greatness coach? I've had a guest on, I think, over 10 times, actually, who is a coach that has come on and coached a bunch of times yet as an individual kind of guest like this I think three might be the max you're trying to think I've moved in the second I think maybe three times maybe maybe four is kind of like only a few people you know so that's that's good we're making it happen you have been diving in you've had a lot of experience

in a lot of different topics over 15 years since you've been creating content. But for the last few years, you really dove into creating more psychologically, deeper psychological videos on your YouTube, which I think are really fascinating around human behavior and these psychological skills that we can overcome or we can master to help us create deeper relationships, to help us create healthier lives, more inner peace, and more abundance. So I wanted to ask you about in the content you've been making, the research you've been

doing, because you're really great at researching and getting the best information. What are a few of the psychological skills that humans should master if they want more peace and abundance in their life? I'd say the first one, first and foremost, is self-awareness. Uh-huh. Ultimately, if you're not aware of a problem in your life

or a tendency in your life, you can't do anything about it, right? And self-awareness is, it's, it's, people talk about it all the time. It's a very tricky thing. It's very slippery thing. Sometimes the more you try to grasp it, the more it slips out of your grasp because we're very good at tricking and deluding ourselves. You know, it's everybody kind of thinks like, well, I know what's going on in my life. Like I, I know why I did that. I know why I'm thinking this way. And it's, it's actually the process of developing

self-awareness is in some ways, it should be an uncomfortable process. It should involve questioning your own assumptions, questioning your motivations. Like, if you say you just had an argument with your partner, obviously you think you're right. Obviously, you think you know what you're doing. But being able to step back and say, but what if I don't? What if I'm actually wrong? What if they're actually right? What would that mean? What would that suggest about me?

What would that suggest about my view of the world? And actually being able to sit with that for a certain amount of time, like that is a skill. That is something that you practice and develop over a long period of time. And like most skills, it's, when you're bad at it, it's not fun. Yeah.

So most people avoid it. For probably every relationship I was in until this one, I used to think I was right in a lot of things. And maybe I was in some of it, but I'd be sure that I wasn't a lot of the time. Where in your relationship have you had to question your own assumptions of being right about something? Where you said to say, I needed to have my own medicine

and step into self-awareness and realize, oh, maybe actually she's right. Where has that been in your relationship that you've seen? Well, the biggest thing, the first thing that comes to mind for me, the biggest thing for me is, I historically was very avoidant in my relationships. Like I was the guy who would find exit plans

to every intimate relationship. When it's uncomfortable. Exactly. And well, every time things got too intimate, I would kind of freak out and like find an excuse to slip out or sabotage things. And when I was younger, I basically torpedoed a bunch of good relationships

for no good reason. Really? And at the time when I was doing it, I thought, you know, like everybody, I thought I was justified and rational and being reasonable and everything. But as the years went on, I realized when I looked back, I was like, yeah, that was kinda selfish.

That was a little bit unjustified. That was a little bit irrational. I was definitely being triggered. Some baggage was being triggered. And so when I met my wife, I kind of went into it with more self-awareness around this. I was like, okay, clearly I'm an avoidant attachment type. I clearly get triggered around intimacy

and have irrational reactions and want to escape and want to run away. And I made a deal with myself. Is I said, look, you can always break up with her. That's always on the table. You're never trapped, but you're only allowed to break up with her for a good reason.

It can never be over something stupid. It can never be over like a dumb fight you started over who loaded the dishwasher wrong. It's always got to be a real reason, like a values difference or a communication problem or a breach of trust or something. It can never be over something really dumb because that's what I had done consistently throughout my career. Or just because you're afraid or something.

Totally, totally. Which I think people don't realize like, I mean, avoidance in particular, it's when you, it's a very irrational reaction and it happens when you're not aware of it, it happens unconsciously, it's almost like a knee-jerk type thing. You get too close to somebody, it gets a little bit too intimate, you feel vulnerable, that freaks you out. And so your mind starts tricking you and it starts convincing you things that aren't true, right? It's like, oh, she's probably lying to you or, you know, oh, she never actually liked you that much. She's just doing this because she wants something from you. You know, it starts feeding all these stories and narratives in your brain

that are completely made up and they're completely based in your trauma response. But if you're not aware of that pattern within yourself, you just assume it's true and you assume it's right and then you start a dumb fight over something completely inconsequential and you ruin a good relationship. Right. And so you've been married how long now? 10 plus years? Eight years. Eight years. Yeah.

What are the psychological skills or emotional skills that you have now learned or improved upon eight years later that you didn't have at the beginning of the marriage? That has helped you become closer, that has helped you feel more harmonious in the marriage, giving you more freedom, whatever it might be within the marriage. That has helped you become closer, that has helped you feel more harmonious in the marriage, giving you more freedom, whatever it might be within the marriage. It's a really good question. I think one of the biggest things is simply, I don't know if the right word is acceptance or non-judgment, but it's, I guess the best way I'd describe it is not feeling compelled to change the other person.

Gosh, that's so. Did you try to change her early on? A little bit. A little bit, yeah, for sure. And she probably tried to change me a little bit. Really? I just feel like when I look at the trends, you know, at this point, my wife and I, we've been together, it will be 13 years next month that we've been together and

When I look at the the different kind of trajectories in the relationship over that time Definitely one of the biggest ones is it feels like every year that goes by The more we just kind of Live and let live like we just you love who's in front of you You don't you don't love who they might be, who they could be, who you wish they could be. You love who's in front of you. Right. And that's, that's ultimately, that's the choice you have to make. And if you choose not to, if you choose to love some imagined version of your partner, some potential version of your partner, I just think you're setting yourself up for a lot of pain.

And if someone doesn't learn the skill of self-awareness, what is available on the other side if they don't learn that skill? You basically become a slave to your unconscious, right? You've got all these patterns, you know, Harville Hendricks calls them love maps. But you have all these patterns that were imprinted on you as a child. And if you're like most people, like everybody, you know, your parents weren't perfect. So your parents had baggage and issues and they kind of imprinted some of that baggage and issues on you. And so if you never develop any awareness around yourself,

you're essentially a slave to that baggage. Like you're always just going to assume that any impulse or emotion that arises is true. Without questioning that, without wondering if You're being irrational or not Maybe you're being unfair. Maybe you're being selfish, you know, these are all human things. We all do them and Yeah, if someone feels like but I know I'm right and they're wrong and I know this is correct and this is not true in whatever dynamic relationship dynamic in whatever dynamic relationship dynamic, what is something that someone could ask themselves or some steps they could take to say, am I truly being self-aware or am I just being

a jerk? What are those skills or steps to creating self-awareness? So I think there are some thought exercises you could go through and you could do this in a journal, you could do this with a therapist, you could do with a friend. I think the first one is imagine, take your relationship situation and imagine it's two other people. And switch around who the people are, switch around the genders, switch around the age, the, you know, who the people are

and see if the dynamics, see if it still feels true to you. Ask yourself, if this, if my best friend was in this, if my best friend's partner was doing the thing to them that I'm doing to my partner, how would I feel about it? And I think that can be very illuminating. That's interesting. So kind of remove yourself from the scenario and look at it from a different perspective,

an unbiased perspective, I guess, of like you being in the situation. Totally. That's interesting. Okay, so that's one thing to creating self-awareness. Is there another? Ask people close to you. Yeah.

And it's, so this is- Feedback. Feedback, and this is the tricky thing, is that a lot of people don't have people around themselves that will give them honest feedback. Interesting. So it's- And if you're in the wrong relationship intimately, your partner might be saying,

you're bad at this and bad at this. They may be not giving you the best feedback too, depending if they don't have your best interest in mind. If they have their interest in mind and not yours. Well, and that just made me think of a good point too, is that generally people who are in bad relationships, bad romantic relationships, probably also have bad relationships with friends,

with family, like they're just bad at relationships in general, right? So finding somebody who is capable of giving you honest critical feedback and saying like, hey man, I think you're in the wrong on this one. Like I think she's got a point. You know, you want to find somebody in your life who is capable of saying that to you and then ask them for their honest opinion.

And you know, it's like a doctor, right? Like you want to get multiple, if it's a serious issue, you want to go get multiple opinions. Yes. And you know what's interesting about feedback is I felt like as an athlete growing up, I was really good at receiving coaching and feedback and when it was around sports. And then in my 20s, and I got into the real world,

I didn't like feedback, like in my business and intimate relationships and like friends, I didn't like it because I felt like it was critical of me as a person rather than me as a skillset in a sport. Yeah. And I didn't take things personally when a coach was like, you dropped the ball, here's what you need to do.

I was like, okay, tell me more. How do we get better at this skill? But when I would get feedback in my 20s from whatever girlfriends or friends or whatever business people, it was like, I took it so personally. It was like I'm bad and wrong because I'm getting feedback. And I didn't know how to deal.

I would like push people away. I was like defend myself every time I got feedback. And I realized that really hurt me from personally growing and developing skills. And it wasn't until I was about 30 where I went to a workshop where it was like a whole day was around people giving you feedback in the workshop. Like literally, they would circle around you and they'd say, you show up to me as this,

you show up to me as a jerk, you show up to me as entitled, you show up to me as whatever. And the whole thing was like receiving the feedback and say, give me more feedback. Yeah. Give me more, you know, give me more, tell me more. And everyone being like,

and this was after like days of people getting to experience you. Yeah. Even if you were like the best person there, what's the feedback you can give them? And that, I don't know if it was like the healthiest thing, but it was definitely helpful for me because I was so against getting feedback about me.

Yeah. And it was the greatest gift that I got in my early 30s because I think I just would have been, you know, right and wrong, good and bad, and just unable to receive feedback at any moment. I'd have been judgmental, you know, all these things. It's scary, man. Feedback is scary. Very hard.

Right? Like it's, you feel, it's hard not to take it personally. It's hard to, and I think it's because sometimes people, there are people in the world who, their feedback is critical and judgmental, right? It's like they're not trying to help you. They're trying to cut you down. Hurt you, yeah.

Yeah. And it's so finding people who can give you free feedback, but they're giving it for your own benefit is really good. You also bring up something that's super interesting about all of this, which is these emotional skills, they're very domain specific. I meet people all the time who are emotional geniuses in their professional work life. And then they go home and in front of their kids, they just melt down. Right. Like can't handle anything. Right. And then there are other people who are the complete opposite.

Like they're just amazing family members and friends. And then they go to work and they just get walked over by everybody. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. Or at work, they're like the boss and they come home and they're like a baby. Yeah. Whatever it is. It's like totally. But in my in my sports experience, I was like, give me the best coach who can give me feedback all day long. I was like, tell me what to do. How can I get better?

How can I improve? But in my personal life, I took it as criticism. I took it as I'm not good enough as a person. And I took it as an offense. And I know now it's because I was very wounded and I was very insecure. And I was afraid of people not thinking I was good enough or something like that. But it's interesting that I was able wounded and I was very insecure. And I was afraid of like people not thinking I was good enough or something like that. But it's interesting that I was able to do it in one domain, but in the other, it was like the hardest thing to overcome, getting feedback. It sounds like you had a, I mean,

obviously you were an athlete, like you had a lot of confidence in the sports domain, right? So it's like, even if a coach, I imagine there were plenty of coaches that chewed you out. Oh yeah. And told you you screwed it up, you know? And it's like, but you knew you're like, I'm good at this. Like I'm a good athlete, you know,

and I'm gonna get better. Whereas if you've never had that evidence accumulate in your personal life, that you're a good person, that people love you, that people wanna be friends with you, then yeah, that feedback is scary. And I think growing up, I didn't really have any friends and I felt like, I didn't feel like I had anyone who had my best interest.

Besides parents or siblings or whatever, but I was the youngest. And they were always kind of off with their friends. So I always felt like I'm left behind. At least that was the story I told myself. Whether it was actually true is what I felt, my interpretation. It's funny, early in my career, so I

struggled a lot with social anxiety when I was younger. And it's funny because for the people who've read my writing for a long time, it's pretty incendiary, a little controversial. It definitely pokes at people's buttons to get a pretty angry response sometimes. And early in my career, I kind of relished that. That's kind of how I made a name for myself is I would poke people's buttons and kill sacred cows and say controversial things and try to get a lot of attention that way. And it's funny because I've spoken to so many writers and aspiring writers who were terrified

of publishing something and making people upset. And it never bothered me. Why didn't it bother you? it never bothered me. I would- Why didn't it bother you? I don't know. I was just like, ah, I'm right, whatever. Like- And did you do that in like social settings

or only like written settings? No, so this is the whole point is like, I would write an article that I knew very well. I'm like, this is going to piss off thousands of people. I'm going to get, I'm going to wake up tomorrow. I'm going to have 200 angry emails in my inbox, but it's fine, because I think it's worth writing it, and I would do it.

And then I would go to a party that night, and I'd be nervous to talk to the girl next to me, because I'm like, well, what if she doesn't like me? Really? Yeah. What is that about? What do you think that was in about you, where you had the confidence or the courage

to do something, I guess, online, but in person, you struggle? What do you think that was in about you where you had the confidence of the courage to do something I guess online but in person You struggle or you think that I? The only thing I can come back to is it is it's like that evidence thing right like I In my writing like my I I'm very aware that my writing Is a better portrayal of me and my ideas than I guess my physical form is. Interesting, because you could also package your thoughts and make something compelling and you'd get results that way

so you knew what to do there. I think I'm just better in writing than in person. But also, it's like I had accumulated a lot of evidence over many, many years that when I really put thought into something, whether it's blogging or posting on forums or posting on social media, when I put a lot of thought into something, it really lands for a lot of people. And I'm really good at this. Whereas in my personal life, you know, like you, I grew up, you know, didn't have a ton of friends, got rejected by all the girls in high school, was, you know, kind

of bullied a little bit. So it was, there was still that scar tissue there that was, it was hard to work through. Isn't that interesting? But I think this is interesting because I don't think most people talk about feedback and receiving feedback. I think it's really valuable to get it

as consistent as you can. And also I look at a lot of my comments on Whatever YouTube or social media not in a sense of like I'm worried what people are saying but more as feedback Yeah, because if there is one person or two people saying I didn't like how you did this Like okay, is this true for me? And is there a place I can improve or is it just something they didn't enjoy? Yeah, whereas if I see a bunch of common themes around people saying hey, you're interrupting too much or you're doing this too much or whatever. Then I'm like, okay, here's a theme of different perspectives giving me feedback. Don't take it personally, but see, how can I improve this? If I want to, if I don't care about what they think, then I'll do whatever

I want. But if I'm trying to get better, if I'm do whatever I want but if I'm trying to get better if I'm trying to serve better if I'm trying to be a better interviewer things like that then let me take the feedback without taking it personally and try to notice next time and that's been helpful. Yeah so that's another skill right is like knowing when to take feedback and when to ignore it because sometimes people don't get what you're about sometimes people don't understand what you're doing sometimes people project what they would do you're doing. Sometimes people project what they would do and try to get you to do what they would do, right? So it's, there's a certain amount of wisdom and consideration that I think is required

to notice those moments of like, okay, I know this person has my best interests at heart, but they also don't really get what I'm trying to do. They're doing what they would try to do. They're telling me to do what they would try to do. So it's tricky. I have this, I had an Instagram post that went viral.

It said, if you wouldn't ask them for advice, then why the do you care about their criticism? Yeah. And that's good. I think what people, the mistake that a lot of people make is that they don't think about where the feedback or the advice is coming from. So true.

You know, so they're like, oh, this person doesn't like what I'm doing. They say I should be doing this better. And it's like, well, yeah, but do you respect where this person's coming from? Like, because it's not, you don't have to, right? Yeah, just because someone said they don't like something you're doing doesn't mean they're the best opinion to listen to for your advice.

That's interesting. I like that a lot. It's kind of like, you know, when you get a negative review as an author, I don't know if you feel this way, but whenever I see like a negative review, I'm like, this person is not a writer who's leaving a negative review as an author. I don't know if you feel this way, but whenever I see like a negative review, I'm like, this person is not a writer who's leaving a nasty review on Amazon. I don't know if I've ever left a bad review

since writing a book for anyone else. Totally. Because you know the pain, the time, the energy, and just putting a book out, even if it's bad. I could give some feedback, but not like one star, I hated it. It's like, no one writing books are leaving negative reviews for anyone else writing books.

They don't. You know what's funny? I'm glad you brought this up, because the two most prominent negative reviews I've ever gotten, I actually feel kind of good about. Are they from writers? No. Okay.

So the first one is, I think if you go to the Amazon page or Subtle Art and I give you a fuck, the top negative review, I think it describes me as the guy in the bar who thinks he's smarter than he is, and who's lecturing you and thinks he's smarter than he is and who's lecturing you and thinks he's smarter than he is. And I was like, yeah, that is kind of my vibe. I kind of am that guy. I've been to a lot of bars and I've been that guy quite a bit. And then the other one was my second book when it came out, The Sunday Times in London. It was like an 80 year old guy reviewed it, which I don't know why they asked him to do it. He said, Manson is like, he said the problem with Manson

is that he's like the local drunk who spent too much time in the philosophy section. Oh my gosh, that's so funny dude. And I was like, yeah, he gets it. It's the same thing, it's the same feedback. It reminds me of goodwill hunting. Do you know the scene in the bar where there's a guy who's like philosophizing and then whatever anyways

But I mean my point there is that They're criticizing me for the thing that I I think other people love me for yes Which is like which is like I'm like a friend in the bar who's giving you advice right like that That's totally why my fans like me. And so when I see that criticism, I'm like, I'm on the right track. I'm not right for you, but thank you for pointing that out because it means I'm on the right track. Yeah, that's cool.

Well, now here's an interesting question for you. What is the feedback if you were a coach and you could get out of yourself and see who you are and everything you've been about in the last I know how do you 40 40 40 if you could see everything you've created which are not you you could see it and you know all of your dreams over the next three five ten years and where you want to go in your health and your relationships or your spiritual journey or financial

opportunities what feedback would you give yourself? Oh, this is a tough question, man. I'm thinking about your mom. Oh, why, why? Because you told me the last time that it came on, your mom really enjoyed the questions. Oh God, yeah, okay. You said your mom watched,

she really liked the questions and she really liked the responses that you had because she had to her you say these things. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I'm curious. So if you could coach yourself, your feedback, would you give yourself I so the the area of my life that I think I'm not killing it right now. And this is honestly, this has been a struggle for a long time. It is reaching out to people, staying connected to people. It's kind of social life. It's like non-romantic relationships, right? It's reaching out to friends, checking in with people,

following up with people, being like, hey, sorry, we missed each other last weekend. We should hang out next weekend. Like I'm really bad about that. I'm very passive and reactive and it's it's a bad habit that I've fallen into throughout my life and It's funny because at the beginning of this year My wife and I we set intentions for the year and one of my intentions was to be better about this

I think I got a little bit better better but I'm like still bad at it. You've done, I've noticed it in the last couple years, you know, we're not best friends hanging out at the time but you've reached out a couple times. Yes. Whereas before you'd never did. Yeah. You know, I was like, so I was like, huh, what, is he changing something about himself? I'm trying man. I'm trying man. I'm not expecting I'm text from you every month or something but the fact that you're just like, hey, just checking in, let's go for a hike sometime or whatever. Once in a while, I'm like, it's it's noticeable because you never did it before. Yes. And so I'm seeing that you're taking those actions. And I'm sure you're doing with others too. I'm terrible at it. And it's it's something that I've had to be very conscious about. And it's like, it's silly, because it's the superficial stuff. Like, like when I'm in person, and you're gonna test this, like when we're in front of each other. Yeah,

it's great. Like I can talk all day, we can hang out, like everything's good. But it's for some reason, like that that connection, that texting, the calling, the responding, the emails, like the scheduling stuff, like, I'm always really bad about that. And it and it seems silly, because it's the superficial side of it. But I, I don silly because it's the superficial side of it, but I don't know, part of it is just being busy, quote unquote, like we all are.

But part of it too, sometimes I wonder if it isn't a little bit of residue from that social anxiety I was talking about. Sure. You know, of like, weekends coming up, I wanna do something with somebody, but I don't know who. And I don't know if they're'm like weekends coming up I should I want to do something with somebody but I don't know who and I don't know if they're busy what if they reject me I don't know if like what to invite them to like what if it's something lame you know what if they don't want to come you

know so it's they can say no there's probably there's probably like something really subtle you just have residual stuff like that down there or maybe I just never developed the skill. Yeah, yeah, I think it's a skill. I think it's a skill, because that's something, it's interesting, I almost have the opposite feedback from myself, which in the last, and maybe we talked about this last time we hung out,

but I was connected with everyone too frequently. I had built my kind of business in building relationships, and I felt like I was spreading myself too thin. I had built my kind of business in building relationships. And I felt like I was spreading myself too thin. And I felt the opposite of like, I'm just pouring it into everyone else and I don't feel like people are as invested in me. And I was starting to feel like resentful or frustrated or just like, oh man, drained.

So it's like, let me reclaim my energy. And I had to in the last year and a half, say no to people create boundaries with people like it was more the fear of hurting their feelings if I need to create a boundary or just say no to them yeah they wanted to spend time together they wanted something they wanted to come on the show whatever it is and I just had to say no I can't do this yeah and be okay with disappointing them letting them down, thinking they're judging me,

which was my greatest challenge. Yeah, that's another skill. That is a skill, I didn't have that skill. You probably had that skill. I have no problem saying no to people. You're like, screw you, I don't care. And that was a skill that I'm still learning. I haven't mastered it.

It's still like, it's a muscle I'm building where I'm just like, okay, I have to learn how to be okay with not upsetting someone. Do you feel like an internal resistance when it when that situation comes out? Or I'm over for like, you know, I need to take a deep breath or what if they react or that's how it was. I'm a lot better now. I feel like I've done it a ton this year. Yeah. I've like immersed myself in like boundaries and knows everywhere in my life, friends, family, like not in a negative way, but just, bring your show for me.

And not in an aggressive way, like screw you, but just like doing the action of no, or setting a boundary. Removing myself from certain, you know, text groups or things like this that are just, ah, I feel out of alignment with certain things. I need to say no, I need to say no. So a lot of people struggle with this.

Gosh, it's a lot of people, please. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what is the first step? I think the first step is what you said, which is self-awareness. Yeah. For me, because I was feeling it for years, but I was afraid of upsetting people.

Yeah. Afraid of hurting the relationships. And then I would resent the relationship when they would reach out and ask for something from me, but they want to just check in on me. Yeah. And I'd be like, and I would do it anyways. And then I resent myself for doing something

for someone else when I was frustrated that it didn't just say, hey, what's going on? How are you doing? Or just texting like, hey, hope you're doing well. But it was only when they reached out when they wanted something. And I would reach out just to be like, hey, I saw you doing something cool.

Congratulations. And you know. So that would bug me. Cause maybe I would just assume everyone does what I do. Which is like thinking of them, wishing the best of them. Like checking in when they do something cool online and my hey congrats What can I help with? Yeah, anyways, that's another that's actually a great self-awareness point

Is that we all default to assuming that people do what we do or think the way that we think right there that that it's and it's it's crazy because people are completely different and It's interesting too because the saying no thing, it's funny because I probably have a very similar reaction that you have hearing my problem. Because when I'm hearing you talk, I'm like, yeah, I'm like, well, yeah, you just say no to everybody. And then the people who are really your friends

will stick around. And I'm like, it's solved, right? Problem solved, but you probably hear my problem. You're like, yeah, just text everybody. And the people who want to see you will text back. It's so interesting, right? But it's so hard. We have the opposite wound or something.

I don't know. That's so interesting. With our powers combined, that would be the perfect friend. That's so interesting. Well, I think a lot of people struggle with these social skills, and I think it is either emotional or psychological wounds that were just a lack of self-awareness

on how to develop this skill. And that's why I think this is what sets people free. Like I have so much more peace in the last year and a half. Now, the first six months of this, I didn't feel peace. I felt like, ah, this is hard. Yeah. But now on the other side of developing this skill, let's say I'm level three or four out of 10,

maybe, of this skill, like I feel so much more peace and freedom being able to create a boundary, say no, or just not go to someone's party or event and be okay with them being upset with me. Yeah. Did you have any fallout? Did you have any like people get?

Yeah, yes. I had to say no to people and I had to, literally there's a few people that I had to create a boundary with over text, then I'd be on a phone call and just being like, here's why you're not a good friend. Wow. And that was like trembling inside.

Oh, it was like I had to have the ultimate courage to be like, you haven't made a good friend. Yeah. This is why this doesn't feel good to me. I don't appreciate the way you're treating me. Like, and that was the hardest thing. Wow. Because I didn't want to upset anyone ever. Yeah. And I did that over and over again. Yeah. In the last year and a half. But then you get to the other side. And I just feel like, I'm peace. And I've also realized like the skill of not needing lots of friends. Yeah. Like, you know all this. You're like, yeah, I have

like, what are four friends and I don't need everyone to like me. Yeah. I'm always trying to get people to hate me, you know, whatever. It's like, that's how you build your business, right? It's like. Pissing off 90% of people and being friends with the other type. It's funny because you said you grew up kind of feeling bullied and not having a lot of friends. I felt the same way and I went into,

well, let me be friends with everyone. Let me try to get that approval in my 20s and have everyone like me and be the nice guy and over deliver and value, so that people see them my worth Well, this is the weird thing about childhood wounds right because there's there's kind of you can go one of two directions you can either try to Compensate for it for the rest of your life or you can just own it and live in it for the rest

You're like identify with it. And I actually think I tend to be I've mellowed quite a bit as I've gotten older, but like I tend to be unnecessarily contrarian with people. Yes, like my first my first instinct, like anytime if I'm with a group of people and everybody agrees on something. I know my first instinct is like, they're all wrong. Oh, my God. And let me figure out how they're wrong. We find the angle where they're missing something.

Exactly, but it's funny because it's been my superpower. Right, like it is that skill and that willingness has resulted in a lot of my personal success. But. Gosh, that's interesting. There's been a lot of social situations, relationships, family situations where people are like, Mark, stop being an asshole, dude. Right. You people are like, Mark, stop being an

asshole, dude. Right? You know, like back off, relax. That's interesting. Yeah. Now I've noticed though, the more boundaries I've created, the more I've developed the skill of boundaries or just saying no and being okay with if there's a consequence. And usually there's not a consequence of saying no, it's just my interpretation of like, oh, am I gonna upset them? By doing this, I've gotten to the place where you are, which is, okay, you have a handful of key friends, and then the rest of the time I'm with my fiance, and I'm happy.

I don't need people to like me. I don't need all these friends to be happy. If I have more friends at a season of life, cool. If it's less or whatever, it's like, I'm okay. to be happy. You know, if I have more friends at a season of life, cool. If it's less or whatever, it's like, I'm okay. Do you think the quantity of social relationships was compensating for the lack of depth, maybe? I was also always trying to go deep with people though, too.

I always wanted to go intimate and deep right away, which people are always like, oh, you're going to, you're asking these deep questions if we just met each other, right? That's kind of what I do on the show. It's like, what's your darkest secret? You know, it's like, and, but I just think I,

I just care deeply about humans also. So there's like a desire to care about humanity and help everyone, but also maybe there was a wound of like, no one liked me as a kid. So sure. So it was kind of a combination of both, maybe. I used to do that as well. And I've actually I've noticed that that is it's a mistake that I've noticed a lot of young people make or younger people make.

And I think it's very well intentioned. Yes, it's like because I hate small talk. I've hated small talk my entire life. And so when I was younger, I kind of had this naive view of like, I should never have to do small talk. I should just go deep with everybody I meet from day one, first step. You know, what's your life's biggest dream? If you only had a year to live, what would you do with it?

You know, like all these questions that I used to ask in my 20s. And I think as I've gotten older, I've appreciated that depth, like you can't force depth and intimacy. And vulnerability right away, yeah. Absolutely, you can't force it. And then also a huge component of intimacy

is simply time, right? It's like, it's simply spending time together. You actually, in many cases, you can develop more trust and comfort and intimacy, hanging out with a friend, watching football games every week for a few years, than you can like having these super deep, profound conversations and like trying to force in

like all these personal topics. Some of it is just being present with someone. Yes. I'm the opposite of you, whereas you're like, how can I push everyone's buttons and almost push everyone away, but build this massive audience because I'm bringing in people who believe in the same type of thought. Yeah. Where I built my and you kind of built your business that way, your blog and

your books that way. I built my business through relationships. Yeah, I started doing hosting networking events in 2008, nine, 10, and I was like, oh, I'm building an audience and making money through relationships, networking, creating experiences, creating groups. That was kind of how I built it. So I felt like I had to keep doing that. And I think I can only do that so much

of personal time invested in all these different people. It just became too much. Yeah. And I think there's probably like a priorities. I don't want to call it a ranking or like a tier system, but there probably needs to be clarity in your own life of like, okay. Friend circles, right?

This is my friend circle. These are the people I really care about. And then these are like acquaintances, people I like, but I see them for work-related stuff, or I talk to them for work-related stuff. But we're not besties. And then there's colleagues, and then there's people you just do partnerships with or something.

Yeah, totally, totally. Not everyone needs to be your friend. Yeah, yeah. But I used to want to make everyone my friend. You know what I mean? But I didn't understand not everyone needs to be your friend. Yeah. You can be friendly with everyone.

Yeah. But there's a difference. I mean, it's almost you actually don't want everybody to be your friend because then you don't really stand for anything, right? That's interesting. Like you. Gosh. It's unrealistic to expect that you're gonna connect or see eye to eye with every single

person that you ever meet. You actually... The fact that you don't connect or meet, see eye to eye with some people you meet is significant because it means that you have some degree of identity and uniqueness and values and prioritizations that differ from others and like that's fine. That's totally fine. Yeah, that's cool. Okay, so we got self-awareness, we got feedback.

What would be another skill that you think from all the research you've been doing lately, that if people can learn to develop or master this psychological or emotional skill, it would improve the quality of their life. Feedback, I'd say communication, communicating effectively with people. I think... What's the key to having powerful communication? I think the most important thing in communicating within relationships is distinguishing between, and this ties into the feedback thing and the criticism and the judgment and everything,

is like distinguishing your comments about a person's thoughts or actions versus the person themselves. I think many people's, it's instinctual for us. Like, let's say you say something that I completely disagree with, right? It is a human instinct for me to be like, Lewis, you're wrong. You're an idiot. You're all this and that. And we have to teach ourselves to separate the idea from the person, right? The behavior that you're doing. Or the behavior from the person. And instead say, hey, Louis, I disagree with that idea, and I don't really like it, and this is why.

And maintaining respect for the person while disagreeing about the idea. So when someone has a belief or a statement, instead of saying, you're a horrible person for thinking that. Yes, exactly. Don't say, how despicable are you for having this opinion? Exactly.

Instead, say something like, wow, that opinion doesn't resonate with me. Yeah, or why do you think that? I disagree, but why do you think that, right? Lead into it with curiosity and understanding that it's OK to disagree about things, even relatively important or even ethical things, without necessarily hating or disrespecting the person.

And I think this is particularly important in romantic relationships, right? Like my wife and I, we have extremely different standards when it comes to cleanliness. Ha ha. Yes. Are you the clean one or is she the clean one? Oh, she is definitely the clean one.

It probably drives her nuts if you don't live up to some standard, right? Absolutely, right? And then she's Brazilian, and so we have different standards when it comes to punctuality. And she's three hours late. Yeah, exactly. She starts getting ready when it's time to be there. And, and it's, it's funny because a lot of us we we tie up things like cleanliness, organization, punctuality, like a lot of a lot of us, we often attach these things to moral judgments, like we, is very natural and normal to assume if somebody's 45 minutes late, like if I showed up 45 minutes late for this podcast, it's a total natural reaction to be like, wow, Mark's kind of an asshole. That's really disrespectful.

I don't like him, right? Or if somebody just leaves all their dirty dishes out everywhere, it's like, wow, what a mess of a person. What kind of person does this? And we jump immediately to judgment of the character of a person. Like what kind of person does this? And we jump immediately to judgment of the character of the person without understanding that you can have different viewpoints, prioritizations, or just perceptions

of what is clean, what's not clean, what is on time, what's not on time. And again, it's love the sinner, hate the sin. Separate the action from the person and try to refrain as much as possible not letting the distaste of the behavior zip into your respect and your trust and your judgment of the individual.

Have you ever done any therapy for yourself? Oh yeah, oh yeah. What's the biggest lesson you've learned from therapy? You know, it was funny. So I did therapy for most of my twenties and it was really funny. I went in, so earlier I was talking about how I blew up a bunch of relationships for no good reason.

And it was as soon as I had awareness around that, like I think it was after the third or fourth relationship that I ruined, I started, I'm like huh I think I'm the problem. And as soon as I realized that I signed up for therapy. Wow. And I was probably 23 or something. That's like young. Yeah. Like therapy wasn't cool 17 years ago. No, no, no. For men, especially for men, yeah. That's a very self-aware thing of you,

at 23, to sign up for therapy. Yeah, yeah. I was really in the meditation at the time. So I was doing a lot of meditation retreats and I was really in the Buddhism and stuff. And so I think therapy was just kind of seemed like a natural extension of that. But so I remember I went to therapy and I intentionally chose a male therapist.

And because I want to talk about girls, right? Like that was in my head. That was my issue is like, oh, these girls, they're crazy. You know, I can't keep a girlfriend around. You know, there's all this drama going on. And I remember I sat down with with him and we started. And I was like, I have all these girl problems. I really want to sort through them with somebody. And we spent the next two months talking about my parents. Like we never, like the girlfriends never even came up.

It was just all childhood parents the entire time. And there was just so much stuff back there, like down there, like stuff I never thought about. There were so many times where like, I would describe something to him and he would just look at me and he'd be like, yeah, that sounds like trauma. You know what I'm like, really? And he's like, yeah, that's not normal. You know, and I had no idea. No idea. Because we all grow up assuming that our childhood is normal. We assume that it's everybody's childhood, that everybody's family operates the way our

family operates. Everybody's mother is the way our mother was, right? Like we never consider that it could be different or that the way we grew up was unusual in some way. And so coming back to the self-awareness piece, like that's incredibly powerful when you realize like, hey, the water I've been swimming in since I was a child is not normal water. Like this is, this is rocky waters. Yeah. This is, this is all splashing around and messed up. Like I'm not seeing clearly. So that, that was very, very powerful for me. And the second thing I remember, this

was before I started my career or anything, I remember kind of once I got towards the end of the therapy and he and I started talking about ending it, he actually told me, he was like, you know, you'd be pretty good at this. I was like, really? He's like, yeah, if you're still thinking about careers, you should consider psychology. I was like, yeah, we'll see. Yeah. Let's do it, look at you now. Yeah, I know, right?

Speaking of psychology and the self-help world, what is the advice in the self-help world right now that you think people should ignore? Ignore. Like what's out there in the world that you're seeing people speaking about or content or people saying, ah, you should do this, but you actually shouldn't do that. You know, it's not so much that something should be ignored, but I do think, I think

there are a number of things that like, tend to get overrated or maybe overrated at the moment. Like I think they, there are certain things that get a lot of traction on social media and so they, they just get spread. And then people start kind of exaggerating what they are. Like, I'll give you one example. Is narcissism. I knew you were to say that. Yeah, I knew you were to say this because I just feel like I literally knew you were to say this. I was going to say it before you.

Yeah, because I feel like that's all people talk about. It's everywhere. It's absolutely everywhere. I see it on a million accounts. I see like whenever I post anything about it, it gets shared a million times. And and I've been running into it, you know, in conversations with people and fans like people sort of like, well, you know, I've had all these narcissists in my life and I had to cut them out.

I'm like, whoa, OK, hold on time out. And. Like narcissism is a thing, obviously. It's a very bad thing. It's a very difficult thing to deal with, but it's not necessarily around every corner. And the problem with narcissism is that you need to have extended exposure to a person to like properly diagnose it.

You can't just be with somebody for a month or a few months or have them do one thing mean to you or be selfish in one way and be like, oh well they're a narcissist and I shouldn't have to ever deal with them again. And I think it's people are using it as an excuse to exit difficult situations and difficult relationships that in reality could probably be improved with a certain amount of patience and work. So I worry about that. I worry there's a lot of statistics around parents or kids cutting off their parents and I think a lot of it is you know the

narcissistic parents is kind of becoming the just or toxic parents is the justification for it. And it really makes me uncomfortable because you can have really terrible parents, but you can manage that relationship and manage your exposure to them in a way that you don't have to eliminate them from your life permanently. You can create a boundary. Exactly. And I feel like people are just using narcissism as an excuse to not do the hard work of boundaries. Yeah, man, that's interesting.

OK, so that's something you feel like is getting either overblown up or overrated in terms of where it's at. Is there any other self-help or personal development advice you're seeing in the The world that you feel like I don't know if that's actually the best approach Maybe not a person who's saying something but uh, uh the concept yeah concept around well I've got a whole rant about manifestation Which my audience loves manifestation. I know it's gonna trigger everyone. I know they do. So it's going to trigger everyone. I know they do. Trigger warning.

The marks coming in on the Manifestation. Let's hear it. It's not that it's wrong. Like it's, it is a thing, right? It's just, I don't like the explanation for it, which is, you know, it. What's the explanation you hear that you don't like? The explanation I hear is very woo woo. And like, and also there's a little bit, speaking of narcissism,

there's a little bit of kind of spiritual narcissism in it of like, oh, if you really wish for something and you really focus on it, the universe is going to conspire to give it to you because there's energy in the world and it's all going to like co-alike. I'm like, come on, really? Look, as somebody, there are very well understood, well documented cognitive biases in psychology. Like, our minds are not 100% accurate. Like, we perceive things inaccurately. One way to think about it is that it is... there's a lot of information in the world, and our minds are not fully capable of processing all the information at all given times.

And so our mind uses shortcuts to narrow in and focus on what matters. Your mind can't process everything that it's perceiving, right? So your mind takes shortcuts. And one of those shortcuts is something known as confirmation bias. And it's confirmation bias is super simple, which is basically whatever you are thinking about, your perception will look for in your environment. So everybody's like a placebo or no? I mean, everybody's experienced this many times.

So for example, let's say you're thinking about buying a new car. You probably go years without paying much attention to what other cars are on the highway, but as soon as you think to yourself, I'm going to buy a new car. I think I'm going to switch models. Suddenly, every day you're driving to work and you notice every single car around you. You're like, huh, I wonder what that one is. I wonder if that's expensive. That one looks nice. Maybe I'll get that. And suddenly, because you've prioritized cars in your mind, you start noticing them in your

environment in a way that you never noticed before. And this has a very noticeable effect. So if I tell you that the color orange is going to be very important in your life over the next week, you probably see the color orange a million times a day, but you never care and you never think about it. But if I tell you that and you believe it, you'll start noticing orange in all these little things that you do all the time. So you can leverage cognitive bias in your favor, which is by focusing and thinking about

your goals, right? It's like if I want to achieve something really important, if I focus and think about that day after day after day, I will start noticing opportunities or things that could help me achieve that in my environment, going about my day-to-day life. Now, those opportunities and things were always there. I just wasn't paying attention to them. Because I was thinking, I've been

thinking about it regularly. Now I notice them. Right? So it's manifestation, there's nothing manifesting. It was already there. It was there the whole time. You just didn't prioritize it. So you never noticed. And so it's, this is what I mean when it's like, it's not wrong. It's just described poorly. Right? And I'm like, and I'm a science nerd, so I'm like, well, why can't we just call it cognitive, leveraging cognitive bias? Well, that's not very catchy, and it doesn't sell a lot of books.

That's interesting. No, I like this approach though, because there are certain people that will just say, oh, if you just think about it, it comes to you or whatever, it'll just, the universe is conspiring in your favor, and you know, when you set an intention, it all floods your way which Whether you believe that or not what you said is actually what a lot of people talk about with manifestation

Yes, these things are already out there. Yes, and when you Put your intention on a goal vision a dream whatever you want to create Then you can go find that thing through daily actions. Yes. And the more clear your intention and the more active you're thinking about that thing and acting on it, the closer you're going to find it, the quicker you're going to find it. Absolutely. You call that cognitive bias, not manifestation. You can call it whatever you want. It's just, it's the explanation that drives me crazy. I hear you. You know, it's like, it's when I hear the flighty woo woo, oh, the universe is, your energy is aligned with this.

And I'm like, yeah, I'm like, whatever, man. Yeah, it works. Okay, great. You know. And you call it confirmation bias. It's, it is like in psychology, we've known it for 50 years. It's a confirmation bias.

It's a thing. You can totally leverage it in your favor. I love it. But whatever it is you believe, if you're taking the actions around, whether you call it confirmation bias or anything else. It's the intention you can totally leverage it in your favor. I love it But whatever it is you believe if you're taking the actions around whether you call a confirmation by it or anything else It's the intention in the action. That's it. That's it. There you go. Okay, so we agree on that. I agree on that Yeah, so it's the way the way people certain people explain it when they don't add those things that's what pressure in and the explanation does matter because

Bad explanations people can start making poor assumptions based on bad explanations. So it's like, if you, let's say you set an intention for a certain goal and it doesn't work out, you know, like it ends up being harder than you expected or maybe you achieve it and it doesn't make you happy. Well, now you've got this like cosmological conundrum of like, well, maybe the universe doesn't want me to be happy. No, no, it's just you thought you wanted a thing and you got it and now you actually realize it doesn't make you happy. Very human

experience, completely normal. So I get, I just have a natural allergy to like the cosmological woo-woo explanations because I just I think it can get people in the trouble. Sure, sure, sure, it makes sense. What is the, you know, being 40 now, what is the skill you think you're going to need to learn to master for the next four years of your life? Oh man. Because you created so much, you've accomplished so much, you've got, you know, probably every type of goal you want to accomplish, you've done it a million times over with the amount of books you sold and all the things you've created and the lives you've impacted and being married for eight plus years now and all these different things. But for the next 40, what's the skill you need to master to feel happy or abundant or joyful or, you know, I feel happy and abundant and joyful. I don't know. It's I don't know, maybe maybe you're in the same spot. But like, it's actually it I was talking to a friend about this just a couple days ago, how early in my career, you know, I was messed up.

I was still working through a lot of shit, right? And so there was a certain like energy and fire to my work because it was also my therapy. Like, you know, it's like, I like, my relationships are falling apart and I've got all this self doubt and insecurity in these areas of my life. And it just, it like fueled a very passionate output. And I really do feel like I've reached a point in my life

where most areas of my life I'm pretty satisfied with. Like there's obviously always things I could do better and there are some areas that I think I could get better at. But ultimately, all in all, I'm like, I'm in a really good place. And I feel like I've figured out a lot of my crap. And, and it's interesting being in this industry now, because it's like some of that fire is gone, or that edge has been taken off, you know, peaceful, and you're happy. I'm peaceful. Like, I'm good, man. I don't need to get angry about stuff. Interesting. And so maybe it's let him go, letting go of something or yeah. Yeah, and also it's. Just enjoying it all now.

It's like. That's what I would say is. Not having to fricking prove yourself or do the next big thing. That would be the skill. That's interesting. Is not like being, just being being, you know? Like. Wow.

Not feeling like I need to go conquer more stuff. And I feel like I really, especially in the last year or two, like I really feel like I'm kind of arriving at that place where it's like, I've got a bunch of business goals, but it's just fun. Like I'm just doing it because it's awesome and fun. And I have goals in my personal life and my health and my relationships, but it's really just because it's just good.

It's just fun. It's like good for me. That's cool. It's good for the people around me. There's nothing, I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm not trying to like win anything or, it's just, it's a great place to be. And I just really hope I can stay here. I don't get like sucked, you know.

Captivated by some. Chasing some rat race sucked, you know, captivated by some chasing chasing some rat race somewhere, you know So I think that's really interesting you say that because there's a lot of people Most people don't have that skill. Yeah, I think that is And there's a season for that skill because I think when you're 22 and you're broke and you're trying to like you shouldn't have it for that skill because I think when you're 22 and you're broke and you're trying to like you shouldn't have it develop you know talents and skills where you can add value to people in society you've got a well if hustle is the right word but you got to work hard you got to overcome challenges you've

got to deliver value you got to figure out where your path is but there's a I come back to this quote that Jim Carrey said a few years ago when he was like retiring, although I just saw that he's got his, I think his final movie is coming out right now. But the interview, someone interviewed him, he's like, yeah, I think I'm done with acting. And the interviewer was really sad. And he said, why, you can't, you're like so great

and amazing, and he goes, well, I'm gonna tell you something that I don't think any celebrity would ever tell you and That is that I have enough. I am enough. I have enough. I've done enough and I am enough Yeah, and he's like, I don't think any celebrity will ever tell you that yeah But Jim Carrey's age and success like he's got like three four decades of frickin wins, right? And like unlimited wealth and fame. So maybe at that level, he felt like, yes,

but he didn't feel that 20 years prior. Yeah. But he looked peaceful, knowing that he doesn't have to go do more to fulfill something for himself to feel enough. And I think that's a very powerful skill. And even if you're in your 20s or 30s and you're like, well, I still wanna do more.

It's how can you do it from a place of I am enough no matter what the outcome is. Right, that's the key. That is power. That's the key. And it's... It's hard though, cause like, what if you would have never sold this many copies

or never been on New York Times Bestseller or never... Would you still be like, oh, I got to prove something. I got to become better to like do this thing. I don't know. I maybe I'm naive, but I feel like a lot of older folks who reach the place, this place kind of naturally, you know, and. It's. I know what you just described. That that feeling of enough. Like to me, that feels like the best definition of success

that you could possibly have is having enough. Man. So I don't know if I'm quite there, but this is definitely the closest I've ever been in my life. And I'm definitely in a place too where I'm not wanting for anything. I'm not, you know, I've got a great relationship. I've got friends. I've got hobbies. My health's good. My business is great. You know, so as long as nothing deteriorates, I've won already.

You've won big, man. And I think having peace with where you're at, because a lot of people, I think suffering is not being happy with what you have. Yes. And it's like there are people that we know who have a lot that aren't happy, or they still feel like they need more in order to fulfill something.

Yeah. And that doesn't seem like peace to me. Yeah. And I don't know, even if I feel like, oh gosh, I've got all the money in the world or whatever it might be, I feel like I'm still gonna wanna pursue things but not out of like proving people wrong

or proving that I can do something, but just because it's going to serve people and it's going to serve me and I'm going to enjoy it. Yeah. And I think that's where hopefully people can get to. I think the service thing is the key. It kind of flips it around, right? I think when you're young, you want to prove something, prove you're enough, have enough,

right? And then once you feel like you have enough, you kind of just want to give it back. You kind of want to help other people up. 100%. Well, you're doing that in a big way with your YouTube series that you have. And you do a lot of docu-style videos and psychological skills and line sets and things like that where people can learn. I want people to follow you on YouTube.

What is the, what's the best place we can go follow you there or your site? Check out Mark Manson on YouTube. I'm on all the social accounts. I'm on everything. Check out my podcast. I'm everywhere. You can't escape me, man. I'm everywhere.

Every bookstore, every website, everywhere. It's great, man. Yeah, if you haven't checked out Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*** yet, check it out. If you're trying to learn how to stop people pleasing and to create boundaries, that's a great book. It's a good book for it, yeah. So check that out, markmanson.net. You're doing a lot of long form content in your podcast as well right now

You're diving deeper into subjects people can check that out Is that I am mark Manson on YouTube or is it mark Manson? Do you just mark Manson mark Manson on YouTube and? Everyone's social media. Where's your main platform is Instagram or X or where do you like to share the most like bite-sized content? Instagram Instagram check it out. It's the gram mark man. It's over there. Yeah mark. Appreciate you as always man. Thanks for Giving us these kind of skills. Yeah, I think will help us improve the quality of our life Yeah, brother always my pleasure. I'm excited now. Thank you I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness.

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And I want to remind you if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.