The School of Greatness - Mark Manson’s 3 Harsh Truths About Love EP 1485

Episode Date: August 16, 2023

The Summit of Greatness is back! Buy your tickets today – summitofgreatness.com – Mark is the three-time #1 New York Times bestselling author of The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck, as well as other titles. His books have sold around 20 million copies, been translated into more than 65 languages, and reached number one in more than a dozen countries. In 2023, a feature film about his life and ideas was released worldwide by Universal Pictures.In this episode you will learn,Why the idea of "soulmates" and finding "the one" is a misguided approach to relationshipsThe factors that are truly crucial for building lasting and meaningful connections with partners.Strategies for couples to maintain a sense of independence while nurturing a deep emotional bondAddressing the possibility of falling in love with someone who holds conflicting life goals or beliefs and discussing methods to foster understanding and growthThe importance of creating a safe space for open and honest conversations in relationships and how to achieve thisFor more information go to www.lewishowes.com/1485For more Greatness text PODCAST to [phone]Want more relationship episodes like this one?Sheleana Aiyana - https://link.chtbl.com/1436-podLewis Howes solo episode on relationships - https://link.chtbl.com/1450-pod

Calling all conscious achievers who are seeking more community and connection, I've got an invitation for you. Join me at this year's Summit of Greatness this September 7th through 9th in my hometown of Columbus, Ohio to unleash your true greatness. This is the one time a year that I gather the greatness community together in person for a powerful transformative weekend. People come from all over the world and you can expect to hear from inspiring speakers like Inky Johnson, Jaspreet Singh, Vanessa Van Edwards, Jen Sincero, and many more. You'll also be able to

dance your heart out to live music, get your body moving with group workouts, and connect with others at our evening socials. So if you're ready to learn, heal, and grow alongside other incredible individuals in the greatness community, then you can learn more at lewishouse.com slash summit 2023. Make sure to grab your ticket, invite your friends, and I'll see you there. Generally, that is the definition of a toxic relationship is a relationship where love is present but respect and or trust is not but the love kind of it's almost like a drug like it's in a lot of ways we psychologically behave with love the way addicts behave with their substance

right which is we justify it we delude ourselves we lie to ourselves and so we have to be very careful love can be an absolutely incredible thing It's one of life's greatest experiences. But proceed with caution. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Mark, you are a three-time, number one New York Times bestselling author of one of the hit books, The Subtle Art of Not Giving Up, as well as many other titles. You've sold over 20 million copies, been translated into more than, I think, 65 or 75 languages now.

And you've reached number one in more than a dozen countries. You've got a film that you've put out that was worldwide released by Universal Pictures, and you've got so much more great content. Thank you, my man, for being here. Good to be back, sir. Very excited. I was just telling you earlier that you are looking healthier than ever before, happier and healed and whole than ever before.

And as the guy who taught us how to not care about certain things, but really care about the most important things, I'm so grateful that you are in a healthy whole place for your life because I remember saying to you, it was like a few years ago, not the peak, but at the height of this book's popularity probably and a lot going on all at once, you didn't look energetically as healthy as you are now. No. And I want to talk about that at some point in this conversation about how success is

not always tied to happiness, health, peace, love, and fulfillment. Of course. But what I would love to talk about first is about love and relationships because you've been in a healthy, happy relationship relationship at least based on the video i watched of yours with your wife for seven plus years you've written a book about love and relationships you've written tons of articles about it um you've been single you've been in relationships in the past and now you're in a happy relationship and i wanted to ask you, what is the thing that you believe most people get wrong about love and about happy, conscious love?

I think the biggest mistake people make is they assume that love is always a good thing. Like love doesn't necessarily make your relationship happy. It amplifies whatever emotion is already there. So if it's an unhealthy relationship that's full of jealousy, envy, disrespect, the love will actually amplify that. It'll make the jealousy even worse. It'll make the disrespect more painful. If there's happiness, respect, trust, joy, the level amplify that. So it's love by itself doesn't fix a relationship. It doesn't necessarily make the relationship good. It takes what's already there and multiplies it by 10. Wow. I've actually heard that about money, but I haven't heard that with love where you hear, if someone gets more money, it amplifies who they are.

Yeah. And I've never heard that about love. Yeah. I mean, people, I think a lot of it is just the romantic movies and stories. And, you know, we tend to glorify romance, right? We tend to glorify love, but think about it. Like what are the most, who are the people who hurt you the most in your life? People you love.

It's the people you love the most, right? Like it's, and it's not just romantic partners. It's parents, siblings, kids. Like it's the more you love somebody, the more vulnerable you are. Because the more any sort of pain or disrespect or antagonism, it just gets amplified.

Interesting. Have you ever felt in a lot of pain in your current relationship with your wife? Have you felt like... Of course. Really? Yeah, of course. I mean, it's...

Here's the thing, like... But you guys are happy. Yes. It's healthy, right? Yeah, so it's... Pain and conflict is normal across all relationships. It's here's the thing, like, but you guys are happy. Yes. It's healthy, right? Yeah. So it's pain and conflict is normal across all relationships. I mean, humans are just, we're human, right? So we're going to, we're going to pick fights and one day she's going to be cranky or one day I'm going to be stressed out and turn around and take it out on her.

Like it's, it's, there's no such thing as a relationship that you don't have bumps in the road or some sort of conflict. What determines whether a relationship is healthy or not is how quickly you recover from those bumps or those conflicts and move on from it. You repair, how quickly you repair the pain. Now this is something i think is fascinating because i don't think there's a lot of relationships where someone in the relationship you're kind of at equal levels financially maybe notoriety or success but then all of a sudden one person in a relationship gets this overwhelmingly amount of success and awareness the way you did. You know, not many people in the world experienced that. Sure.

How did you navigate staying in a healthy, happy relationship? Um, or maybe you weren't able to for a period of time as you started to sell millions of copies of your book, you're on all the press and everyone wants to talk about you and you're making more money than you ever had before where it wasn't as equal financially or success wise how did you guys navigate love with you accelerating that it's funny that really didn't put a whole lot of stress on the relationship really and i think i think a lot of it what I've noticed, and this isn't limited to romantic partnerships. This is every relationship in life. And I don't know, maybe you've experienced some of this, but like when you experience a lot of success professionally, reputation, financially, whatever, um, the way the people around you react is very reflective of their relationship to their own wealth, financial success, fame, whatever. Right. So what I noticed is that people in my life who judged themselves by how much money they made suddenly got weird around me.

Really? Whereas people who didn't judge themselves by how much money they made, they were happy for me. They were totally cool with it, not a big deal. People who very much judged themselves by how famous they were, how much attention they got, got weird, a little bit of jealousy,

a little bit of envy. People who didn't give a shit about that, they're like, cool, happy for you, man. So with my wife, we're very fortunate in that that was never, honestly, she's an immigrant. I think moving to the United States and dealing with the culture shock

and the cultural differences and language barriers, I think that's been a bigger challenge than simply my success. She's just been incredibly supportive, very happy for me. You know, no, no sort of like, now I, I give myself a little bit of credit here because it's, it's not just, she hasn't just been amazing about it, but also I didn't let it go to my head, right? Like it's, I think the other side of it is if I came home from a book tour or something and she's like, hey, can you take out the trash?

And I'm like, do you know who I am? Like, this is beneath me. Like, how dare you ask me to take out the garbage? You know, I hurt the relationship. Yeah. That also causes problems so i think it it requires both people to uh keep perspective about what it actually means knowing i mean experiencing what you've experienced now with the success and the money that has come

you didn't have that before you got married, right? No. Would you have any different conversations or would you have, I don't know, set more ground rules or anything like that, knowing what you know now? Or would you give anyone else advice or an opinion about, hey, if one of you is really driven in a relationship to go earn or create or be a famous artist or whatever, and that might happen in the future, here are some things you should talk about to be aware of those changes. What would you share?

I think it would just, I think it's very important to have deep discussions about, and this is probably good for any marriage, like whether somebody's driven or not, this is probably healthy for every marriage is like, have some very deep and serious discussions of what money means to each person. Some people put a lot of their self-esteem into money. Some people don't. Some people are very conservative with money. Some people are not. Some people have a lot of moral beliefs around money, right? Like if you make too much money, you should give it all away or that means you're selfish or whatever. Some people don't have those sorts of moral beliefs tied with money. So I think it's probably the most important thing is just get very, very clear with your partner. What are each other's beliefs around finances and wealth?

Especially because, you know, the number one cause of divorce is financial differences. Isn't that crazy? Yeah. So it doesn't matter how much you love someone, but people will get hurt or break up because of money. Yeah, I guess. So love isn't enough. It's not enough.

I mean, I think in your video, which I want to link up where you talk about love and relationships with your wife, which I think is powerful. You mentioned how love is, I think, I think your wife said love is 50% of the equation to making a happy relationship, a healthy relationship. And I think to you it was like 35% or 40% or something. And then I think you mentioned values as being a big part and a few other things. Do you remember what those were for you besides values and other things that make a healthy relationship? My hierarchy for relationships, and this is, is i mean people can find this in my

books my courses like it's trust and respect are tied for number one yeah you can love somebody that i think and i think most people have had an experience in their life where they've loved somebody very deeply but they didn't trust them and And it doesn't work. It doesn't matter how much you try, how much effort you put in, how much you cry and argue and fight. It's like if the trust isn't there, it doesn't work. Yes. And if the respect isn't there, it's not healthy. Two people can love each other, but if they don't respect each other, they're going to

treat each other like. Yeah. And they're going to justify treating each other like, or they're going to justify tolerating being treated like by saying, well, I love them so much. Oh man. And maybe it's my fault. Maybe I deserve this. Right. And so, and all, I think most of us have been in that relationship before too. And it doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't end well. before too. And it doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't end well. It's rough. And it's, you know, to me, that's generally, that is the definition of a toxic relationship is a relationship where love is present, but respect and or trust is not. And, but the love kind of, it's almost like a drug. Like it's, in a lot of ways, we psychologically behave with love the way addicts behave with their substance. Right. Which is we justify it.

We delude ourselves. We lie to ourselves. We rationalize decisions that we make that are completely irrational. And so we have to be very careful. Like it's, love can be an absolutely incredible incredible thing it's one of life's greatest experiences i think everybody should absolutely experience it but proceed with caution right right right right now you're i mean i'm having you share from personal experience obviously Obviously, you're not like a love coach, and this is not what you study full time, although you've done a lot of research around this. You've done a lot of studies and written about this a lot.

But how much does your environment affect love and how you feel and connect with your partner? I'm thinking about personally with you and maybe the research you've done. and connect with your partner. I'm thinking about personally with you and maybe the research you've done. You were in a busy, chaotic environment in New York City, and now you're in a different environment in California. How does that change, or does it change the connection you have with your partner?

I think it can. Love isn't something you simply sit and feel. It's something you put into action, right? Like you go on date nights together, you, um, go out with friends together, you visit each other's families, you, um, go on a vacation together, right? Like it's, it's something you do sit and feel it, but you also have to go live it. You have to like kind of keep, it's something you have to keep in motion by doing things together. And so I think when the environment changes, the nature of those activities you do together can also change. actually moving to LA from New York, New York, there, there's so much to do all the time. So there's always, in a lot of ways, it, it, it's conducive to generating romance. Cause there's always an adventure to go. Yeah. Stimulus when you walk out the door, there's always a concert or a show or some great restaurant that's just opening. And so it's, there's always this feeling of novelty and excitement, but there's also a lot of distraction, right? So if, if, if something, if something's like brewing under the surface and people, you know, people don't want to address it, you can find a lot of ways to keep, keep your hands looking the other way right yeah um so it's it's been interesting coming here to

california and having a way more sedentary well i shouldn't say sedentary but like routine and calm lifestyle domestic i think is the right word uh there's so there's less novelty and stimulation and there's also less distraction like there's there's thing i've noticed that since we've been here things that come up we tend to talk about it pretty much immediately just because we're like sitting in our backyard and have nothing else to talk about so it's in in some ways that's fantastic because we're very aligned and on the same page, but at the same time you're kind of giving up some of that excitement and novelty and stimulation as well. Yeah, the serendipity of the adventure that's happening right now. You're planning and you have to drive somewhere as opposed to walk outside.

Yeah, exactly. Subway or whatever. Yeah. Trust and respect it sounds like are big for you. I know you talk about values also. Sure. If you have, I mean, we're just speaking hypothetically here, but if you have trust and respect that is there, you got a lot of love.

Yeah. Values aren't really aligned. Yeah. Maybe 30 to 50%, but you're not over 50% on values. 30 to 50%, but you're not over 50% on values. Is love, trust, and respect enough to sustain a long-term healthy relationship in your mind? I think that's a really good question, and I think it depends. So I don't think you'll ever find two people that are 100% aligned on values.

Everybody is a little bit different, right? So, and you, I think you also want a little bit of diversity of values within the relationship. You want to have different standards for, for different things and different opinions about different issues. Uh, it just makes life way more interesting. There's probably a threshold or a breaking point somewhere, right. And it's, you know, one of the examples I've used in a book before is like, if, if somebody is a, a, a priest and the other person's a stripper, like it doesn't matter how in love they are with each other. It's never going to work. Right. Uh, if? If people have very, very fundamental belief differences, and this kind of comes back to the money thing, I think that the handful of things that seem to come up all the time are differences of beliefs around money, differences of beliefs around religion, and differences of beliefs um kids are around kids and family yeah and i think if you can probably survive not being aligned on one of those but if you're not aligned on two or all

of them you're probably in trouble like you're probably just going to butt heads over and over again. Now, what if someone evolves their values over time? Five, 10, 15 years into the relationship, you know what, I actually don't have those beliefs and that lifestyle choice anymore. I'm going to try something different. Do you think the love of the past, the history of the relationship can sustain

if it's too much of a conflict around those lifestyle choices or beliefs i think to a certain extent first of all everybody does evolve their values do evolve and change like i think that's just natural to to to people i think the challenge within relationships is you know know, generally when relationships start, when you commit to somebody, it's because there is some amount of alignment and it's working. are deciding to get divorced they say like you know we've become two different people or or we don't i don't recognize him or her anymore right um and i think that that's a case of like we were 10 years ago we were completely aligned and we've both changed and evolved over the years and my partner's gone this way and I've gone this way. And so now there's just this massive gap and we don't feel like we can bridge it anymore.

We don't relate to each other. We don't understand each other. We don't agree on anything anymore. We don't do the same things for fun anymore. And that's tough. And so I think part of the trick is to kind of intentionally evolve together is to be very conscious. And this is something that my wife and I try to pay attention to is that if I feel myself changing my mind about something very significant in my life, about my career, my beliefs around family relationships with friends it i communicate that with her i'm like hey i'm

starting to move in this direction really right so that just as so she can be aware and and adapt you know and just understand like okay that's kind of where he's at huh is there an example you can share around this in the last few years, maybe? I'm not having fun anymore I need to take some time off figure myself out and really decide like okay what's this next phase of my career gonna look like what's the next decade of Mark Manson's career look like and so I communicated that to her I'm like hey I'm not gonna be speaking not gonna be traveling I'm gonna be at home a lot you're probably going to see me on the couch playing video games. You know, this is kind of what I'm going through right now. Right. And, and I'm probably going to come out of that different with different priorities, different metrics of how I'm going to make decisions. Um, money might be different,

right? Like suddenly that huge speaking gig in Dubai that I would have taken a year ago to cash that fat check. Now I'm not going to take it and we're not going to get that fat check. Right. So it's, it's, you, it's important to communicate those things that she understands like, Hey, I'm at this pivot point in my career and I'm probably going to start going to different directions just so that she knows and like isn't shocked. Right. When I don't take the speaking gig and do that. On the other front, this ties into the health thing. She was actually really good.

She was a good influence on me. She so my wife has a couple autoimmune conditions and they really started. She's been aware of them for a long time, but, you know, as things happen, as you get older, things you could get away with. You can't anymore. Yeah, in your 20s, it's like, you know.

You gotta pay attention and focus on them. You start coming up on 40 and it's just like, they level you. And she was starting to get leveled by them. And so starting right around the time of the pandemic, she got very, very serious about health. And at that time, I had been overweight for a while. My lifestyle was very unhealthy. I was traveling five, six months a year. I was drinking three, four nights a week, eating like crap crap eating junk food their desserts all the time and and i was aware of that but it just you know on that totem pole of priorities it was pretty low on the priority list uh but she got super serious about it and and she really did because she she didn't have a choice like it was was affecting her health yeah yeah like i mean she it was to

the point where she could barely function throughout the day. Wow. If she wasn't being very, very intentional about what she was eating. She was feeling sick. Yeah. Yeah. And so she started kind of going on this journey and really cleaning up her diet and getting her health in order.

And I started kind of becoming the beneficiary of that because she does most of the cooking. So I'm starting to eat healthy a lot more often. We're not going out as much, not drinking as much, and I'm starting to feel better. And I'm like, man, I'm like, I'm waking up bright eyed, bushy tail, feeling pretty good. Right. Uh, and it it's, you know, she and I were in communication about that and And she was very clear, like, I need to make this a top priority in my life. And I'm going to become that person who doesn't eat dairy, doesn't eat gluten, doesn't eat sugar. And I was like, oh, God, this is going to suck. My life's going to get so boring.

And actually, the opposite happened is that i've kind of followed her on that um she's been a very positive influence in that way in that i started to notice benefits and i said you know my health has been pretty terrible the last five years i'm getting up in my 30s like i'm not bouncing back the way i used to 10 years ago maybe Maybe I just hop on, on this train with her. Right. And see where it goes. And that's, that's a big part of what happened. And, um, and so now health has become a big priority in my life.

Yeah, man. Yeah. It's interesting because when I, when I saw you, like it was a month ago or something or a VidCon, I recognized you, but I didn't recognize you. Yeah. It was like, oh, there's Mark, but you don't look like Mark. You know what I mean?

It was like, what? Who are you? You know what I mean? Maybe I haven't seen you in years, but I'd seen your content online. I'd seen your YouTube videos. But I mean, you just look like a new human being. Yeah.

And your aura, your energy is vibrant and healthy. And, um, and even just looking back at some of your old videos before getting on this interview, I was like, man, you, you just a little rough around the edges. I mean, I've been there too at different times in my life. You know what I mean? I've been there as well. It's not like I've always, you know, perfect health. But it's amazing when we make health a value and you have a partner who's all on board with you. My girlfriend's the same way. We're like all on board on it.

And it's amazing how the relationship, I feel like, is also healthier. It doesn't mean it's perfect and there's not disagreements or challenges, but when you both have health as a priority it's incredible feeling yeah what have been the benefits you've seen of her starting this health journey and you aligning to it yeah like with the relationship not just your body and your health and it's i mean it's been so important first of all it just makes it so much easier for

both of us yeah right like i'm if she's not ordering desserts then that's one that's one more temptation i don't have to fight off right you know and and it's the same for her as well it's like if i'm not like buying ordering bottles of wine you know every weekend like she doesn't have to sit there and ask herself oh do i want I want one too? Right. So it, it, you really do kind of compound each other's success in that regard. Uh, and I think that's probably true with a lot of lifestyle habits, but it's, it's also just, I don't know. We just so much more energy. Yes. Like just more vitality. Uh, it's funny because our idea in, you know, when we lived in New York, our idea of quality time together was going to a happy hour, having a bunch of drinks, maybe going to a show or something,

staying out to like 12 or one. Now our idea of quality time is like going on a hike at like eight in the morning. Exactly, man. It's a great, great feeling. Yeah. And it's, um, it's different, but it's like, it's not, it's not any less significant. It's, it's less exciting, but it's, it's long-term. It's more meaningful. More fulfilling.

Yeah. Yeah. More sustainable. Absolutely more sustainable. Way more meaningful. Yeah, more fulfilling. Yeah. Yeah, more sustainable. Absolutely more sustainable. Way more sustainable. Yeah. I guess it would be challenging if someone was like, you know, I'm going to start being vegan and the other person's me,

and then it's like, okay, that's a different type of lifestyle, but it's just hard. You got to learn how to evolve with the person, it sounds like. Yeah, or at least accommodate each other. Accommodate, yeah, accept. Yeah. Not make wrong, not judge. It's like, all right, you're vegan now. to evolve with the person it sounds like yeah or at least accommodate each other accommodate yeah except yeah not make wrong not judge it's like all right you're vegan now like i'll i'll figure it out yeah yeah exactly who knows in the next year she may become vegan yeah we're not being out in la what is the thing that you've learned the most since the rise of your success through books and everything you've done what is the thing you

used to believe was true before or at the height of those things rising that you don't necessarily agree with now was there a value a belief or a thought that maybe you even taught in a book or in a blog or something where you're like, this is the way where you're like, you know what? Maybe it's not the way. Yeah. You know, what's funny. It's actually kind of the reverse of that, which is, so first of all, the answer to your question is I think early in my career, I was so driven and just set on, like I had some really moonshot goals in my head and I was just so set on them and so driven to achieve them that I never really stopped and asked

myself like, what, what after that? Like, you know, let's say you get there now, what then what thought never even crossed my mind. I think there was just kind of this implicit assumption that like, once I get there, everything's going to be gravy. So why worry about it? And the irony is that a huge part of that book is saying exactly the opposite of that, which is you never get away from problems in life. You just upgrade your problems, right? It's like success isn't the elimination of problems. Success is just getting better problems. And so once my career really took off and I hit a bunch of those moonshot goals that I had dreamed about, I looked around and I still had problems. In fact, I had like bigger problems. In a lot of ways, bigger problems. And that just messed with me.

Really? Yeah. It just messed with me. I was like, yeah, I just, it really, it really messed with me. Um, how did they make you feel or what did it tell you about life? What did it teach you? I think again, it's, it's, it's not so, it's not so much that I like believe things before and that weren't true. It's just, there were, there were things that I didn't account for or think about. And one of those two was that the, the higher on the mountain you get, the, the larger the stakes are. Right. So it's like, if nobody knows who your name is and you post an article online and people hate it, nobody cares. Yeah. Three people. Yeah.

You just delete the account open a new one start over right like nobody will ever know you know it's if you've you sold 10 million books and you post an article online and people don't like it like suddenly there's repercussions to that did you ever experience that uh i definitely had like some Did you ever experience that? I definitely had like some controversy. I've never been like canceled, right? You had some criticism or negative feedback. Yeah, I definitely had some pieces.

Really? Oh, yeah. They got a lot of blowback, especially back in 2020. Really? Like what was the topic or? People. It's funny because now in hindsight, I can recognize it. Like everybody was just so hypersensitive.

Oh my God. Everything. People off. Like you could say anything and it was, it wouldn't have anything that wouldn't have anything to do with politics or vaccines or COVID and nothing like nothing to do with it. And people find a way to construe it and be like, oh,

you're one of those. And like, blah, blah, blah. Um, yeah. yeah so there were there were a few moments like in that period that i just got ravaged by a percentage of my audience right mainly just because i got lumped in with some sort of cause or political group or ideology or whatever and they assumed that i was part of that and they just went to town on me how does that make you feel though once you're at that level of oh it sucks it sucks man i mean it just it it is i can honestly say writing newsletters in 2020 is the least fun my job has ever been wow because it was and i remember talking my team and it was like man i writing writing a newsletter every week in 2020 it was like it's like being in a boxing ring

and getting knocked down and like getting up knowing you're about to get knocked out again wow because it's just it felt like you couldn't say anything that you just wouldn't get ripped apart for. I think this is one of the things that most people don't understand about having a goal be achieved on some level greater than where you're at. Let's say you don't really have that much or no one follows you, not that many people know about you except for your inner circle of friends and family. And then all of a sudden, a thousand times more people are aware of you. A million times more people are aware of you within a period of a year or a couple of years. And it grows.

I don't think people understand that there's a whole different level of pressure that can come with that. There's a lot of privilege and opportunities and amazing things, but it's like, people don't know that you have to deal with a different type of pressure. And can anyone get away from that pressure with having some type of success? I don't think so. Because I mean, it's by definition, success is doing something extraordinarily rare, something that 99.99% of other people

either haven't done or can't do, right? And once you've kind of reached that level of uniqueness, it's, there's a lot of expectation that's put on you. Like it's, you have an audience of millions now, so you're supposed to say something more empathetic or interesting or intelligent or whatever. The other thing that happens too, and I think this is particularly inherent with our line of work, which is having audiences, a, when your audience is relatively small, like let's say a thousand people or even 10,000 people, that's usually, it's going to be a pretty

homogenous group, right? Like when I started my career, I specifically wrote dating advice for young men. And so my first 10,000 people in my audience, it was all 24 year old guys or dudes in their twenties. Like, and so it's you know what's gonna piss them off and you know what's not and once you reach kind of the level where we're at where it's your audience audience is measured in millions there's such a massive amount of diversity that it's it kind of feels like there's landmines everywhere. Right. Like, it's like, like. Oh man, that's a good analogy. Yeah, it's good.

I can see by the look on your face, you, you relate to what I'm saying. Like jokes. You have to be cautious about what you're putting out there. Totally. Jokes that in your head are completely innocuous. Right, right. Like didn't even thought for two seconds about it. You know, there's somebody somewhere in some country that you've never even been to or thought of that is like extremely offended and you get

that email and you're like oh all right so we'll make that joke again you know and it's um so i this isn't i always feel a little awkward like getting into this subject because it's i never want to look like uh you know the whining right oh what was me yeah the whining million number one your time best seller like like it's i wouldn't trade anything like i wouldn't go back but it's it's um again if i could go back to myself say six months before everything blew up or took off what would you have said or what do you wish you would have known to prepare yourself i would i wish i would have known or what i would say to myself is like you need to start thinking about contingency plan you know it's like what

if this thing does 10x your expectations what if you do hit that moonshot in your 32? Then what? What are you going to do? Think about the expectations that are going to be put on you. Think about the pressures that are going to be put on you. Again, didn't think about it until it happened, but a book publisher treats you very, very uh when you've sold millions of books than when you haven't sold a thing right like when you haven't sold a thing it's funny because when you talk to authors authors kind of universally complain like my publisher doesn't do anything they barely respond to my emails and it's like yeah because you haven't done anything for them well once you've done something for them and they care a

lot well that introduces its own series of problems, which is like every word you write, every chapter you send to them is like scrutinized and nitpicked and like, well, we actually don't like this chapter. Why don't you go rewrite it? the stakes rise proportional to the success and i think there's this assumption that when you are at the bottom of the mountain and there are very low stakes and failure doesn't cost you very much there's this assumption it's like well if i get to the top everything's gonna be great uh i can do whatever i want i don't have to worry about any like repercussions because i'll be rich and famous whatever and it's like actually it's it's a lot of or whatever. And it's like, actually, in a lot of ways, it's the reverse. It's like once you have tons of stuff to lose, you start questioning everything you do and you start wondering if every decision is going to be the wrong decision.

You think that being more successful would give you more self-confidence. Yeah. But for a lot of people, it actually diminishes their self-confidence. After a period of time, they start to second guess the next moves, right? Can I be as successful?

What if I lose it? You know, I need to be careful about what I say now. Whereas before, people were willing to take more risks when they didn't have anything to lose, right? They were like, let me try this thing and this thing. And I would hit, okay, let's try another thing. Yeah. How does someone prepare themselves for success to keep their self-confidence and expand it not

dim their light yeah i mean honestly the thing that ultimately worked for me is to just kind of maintain that bottom of the mountain mindset in in a lot lot of ways, you know, there's like a famous cliche about, you know, there's, you get to the top of the mountain, you realize there's a taller mountain behind it, you know? And so it's like figuring out what, what that taller mountain is. Right. And like, and a lot of times you, you just invent it. Like you just pick something out of there and you're like, you know what?

Like I'll make this my mountain. Right. But it's, it's finding that so that you can, because there's a certain amount of, uh, freedom and maneuverability that comes with, um, seeing yourself as a beginner, seeing yourself as somebody who like doesn't have anything to keep that and not put all of my identity and self-worth into that. Because if I did that, then I'd be terrified to get out of bed in the morning. So when you were saying that, for those just listening, you're pointing at the book, putting your self-worth and identity into the success of the book, right? What should we put our identity and self-worth into if it's not into our accomplishments, our career, or our wealth? Yeah. It's a great question. I personally believe that

you should treat your identity or your self-worth, uh, the same way you treat a good investment portfolio, which is you diversify it across a lot of things that are not correlated to one another. Uh, so the same way, you know, you want to split up your money between stocks and bonds and cash and real estate, because those things don't always move in the same direction at the same time. You want to put your self-esteem in things that aren't going to go north or south at the same time. That's interesting, yeah. For someone listening or watching, what does that look like in a day-to-day life? For me, those categories, I do think it's very important.

You should have a lot of your self-esteem tied up in your career and accomplishments. I think that's healthy. That's good. Like your skill sets, the things you're learning and developing and the impact you're making. You spend half your waking hours working on something. So you should care about that something and you should take some amount of pride in it. Like I think that's healthy. But, you know, with that, I would put relationships, both family and friendships.

I would put relationships, both family and friendships. I would put knowledge, learning something, having some sort of hobby or interest that you do simply for the sake of doing it. And I think I would throw in there as well, I think for a lot of people, you might throw religion or spiritual practice in there. For me personally, I'm not very spiritual or religious. I just kind of see it as like charity or generosity.

You know, it's like do good things for people. Being a generous human being. Yeah. It doesn't mean you have to give all of your time, but just being kind to people. Yeah. You know, opening the door, being courteous being sure appreciative or you know volunteering helping somebody out you know whatever how i mean i'll speak from a personal experience here whenever i was in challenging intimate relationships. It didn't matter how successful my business or how talented I was as an athlete. I always felt like my self-worth was a lot lower if my intimate relationship

wasn't successful or if it was up and down and emotionally challenging too much. Sure. How much do you think our intimate relationship, and I don't know if that's just me that I was just really bad at them, but how much do you think our intimate relationship i and i don't know if that's just me that i was just really bad at them but how much do you think our intimate relationship is tied to our self-worth like if we are struggling in intimacy do you think we can still have conference and full richness of life in other areas or does that hold us back a little bit it's's funny because I think it's a little bit of a chicken and the egg thing. Where people tend to struggle in their intimate relationships

because they don't have a lot of self-worth outside of their intimate relationships. Interesting. Right? And so it's one way you solve that is finding self-worth outside of it and like building that identity for yourself. And that tends to help you generate better relationships, which then also give you a lot

of self-worth. So it's like, it's interesting. I feel like intimate relationships are, they drive happiness more than any other thing, any, you know, more so than career success, more so than money, more so than money more so than um hobbies or friendships whatever it's it's generally like when you look at all the data on happiness it's how good are your relationships if they're good you're probably a happy person and if they're not good you're probably not happy and those two things are going to those two statements are going to tend to be true regardless of what out whatever else is going on in your life um but i think when it comes to self-esteem self-worth i do think there's a a large component of it

does seem to be driven by feeling useful in some way feeling competent, feeling that you're able to do something in the world. Yes. Speaking of success, I always forget the exact quote, but I love the message that Jim Carrey shared in one of his commencement speeches where he says, I wish everyone could become rich and famous and realize it's not the key to happiness or something like that. it's not the key to happiness or something like that. Um, do you feel like success adds to happiness or adds to feeling not enough? Still, if like it, it,

it supports you more in being happier or makes you realize, I'm actually deficient in other areas. I don't think success and money buys happiness. I think it, but it can buy away unhappiness. So it can buy away problems that would normally derail other people. Right. So, um, the stress of not knowing if you're going to be able to buy books for your kid. Right. Or if you're going to be able to meet books for your kid or if you're going to be able to meet Rhett next month. It buys away those things. It buys away a lot of stress and angst. But I think if you are psychologically wounded and fundamentally have a low self-esteem or struggle with self-worth issues, it's not going to solve

those for you on its own. And in fact, and there's plenty of examples of people who, you know, get super famous and rich and it's not enough. Yeah. They get into addiction or drugs or whatever. Yeah. In the last three years, the last 10 years, I've been on a healing journey for a lot of different things in my life. But I would say in the last three years, I've had some of the biggest breakthroughs in terms of healing psychological wounds that were holding me back in certain areas of life. Where do you feel like was the biggest place for you to, that you healed in the last five years in your life internally? Was there any wounds or challenges or things that you were like,

they were just kind of holding onto that you were able to start releasing and letting go of? It's funny because the biggest thing is very related to the physical health. So I, I came from, I love my parents very much, love my family, very emotionally dysfunctional. And I grew up emotionally dysfunctional. And so one of the reasons I came to this career is probably sounds like the same reason you came here just like i'm just trying to figure my own out right and so i might as well do it in a very public manner um

so i can get feedback and try to help people yeah i hear from other people uh so it's so much of my early adulthood was very very honed in on healing my own issues with relationships and intimacy. Wow. And kind of getting the, you know, I struggled a lot with depression throughout my life. And so getting like kind of philosophically getting myself straight with the world and, you know, what is happiness and what is a good life and what's worth living? And, you know, all those questions, they really, they ate at me for a number of years. So when I look at teens, twenties, and even through early thirties, like that was very much the project. Meanwhile, what's going on externally is I'm at all the parties, I'm drinking all the booze, I'm eating all the food. Uh, I am not, i'm saying not saying no to any invitation that comes my way and again when

you're 28 and you're indestructible like you can get away with that right like that's not a problem yeah and i got into my mid mid 30s and it became a problem like i i became very overweight i so last time i was here uh you know you were talking about my energy right so last time i was here i was i was on la was like city number six on like a 12 city book tour i think i had done you know nine interviews in the past 48 hours when i showed up to talk to you i was probably completely underslept. I was touring for one book while simultaneously writing another. Wow. That's crazy. Just like an unbelievable amount of stress and pressure and just exhaustion going on

simultaneously and not taking care of myself at all. It's like I'm eating Chipotle in the airport or whatever, not even thinking about it. And it was interesting. So during that book that I was promoting last time I saw you, it was like two weeks before the deadline. I was under so much stress. I actually started having chest pains. Really? I was 36, started having chest pains like and i have a history of heart disease in my family so i'm like in my head i'm like i'm having a heart attack wow i'm just gonna like keel over in this coffee shop at any second right and then that the chest pains kind of started to turn into a little bit of a panic attack and i went home talked to my wife she's like you gotta stop like

go to a doctor don't mess around yes don't like you're not working and you're not writing another word till you go to a doctor so i go to a doctor get all the tests check everything out everything comes back blood work everything's fine everything's fine comes back and then you know he shows me all the tests he's like yeah you're perfectly healthy. You're doing fine. Or by the way, you under any stress lately? And I just, that was kind of some of that blood work came back and he was like, you know, this isn't great, but you're still young. So it's not a problem yet. This isn't great, but you're still young. It's not a problem yet. You know, it was a lot of like the path I was on was I was going to be one of wife started her health journey and I kind of went along with it, I was very shocked and surprised how transformative it was for me because I, my body was something that I just ignored for pretty much my entire life. I was always focused up here for people listening. I'm pointing at my head. Very analytical in your head. I was always focused up here for people listening.

I'm pointing my head. Very analytical in your head. Very analytical. Not in your body. Very like reading psychological research, studying, reading books, thinking about relationship. Um, it was. You're an analyzer. Totally.

Yeah. Totally. And it, when I started getting the physical stuff in shape, it, first of all, it was surprising to me how much I underestimated. I mean, I feel stupid in hindsight because I'm like, wow, I feel 20% better 24-7. I feel like I've been running uphill my entire life. Wow. I'm like, God, why didn't I do this sooner? I'm like, God, why didn't I do this sooner? But it was interesting because there are a lot of emotional,

to fix a lot of my bad habits around food and alcohol, I had to take a hard look at some of, there was some emotional stuff tied up in it. Really? Really. So I realized at a certain point that my drinking my drinking i never craved alcohol but i found that i would any social situation i was in i would drink and it was just very automatic i didn't think about it i didn't question it it was just like well yeah of course i'm at a birthday party of course i'm gonna drink and it never occurred to me like you don't have to drink at a social gathering like that's not a

that's not that's not necessary and i started like really asking myself a lot of questions around you know why why do you feel like you should be drinking at social gatherings what happens if you don't well it turns out i don't enjoy half of them well what does that mean means you're hanging out with a bunch of people that you actually don't enjoy hanging out with well why are you doing that oh now now we're starting to get somewhere right like now we're starting to get into the real questions people pleasing tendencies feelings of inadequacy needing like needing to be seen a certain way like one of the things that i realized is that in my you know in college and in my 20s, I developed a reputation as the party guy, right? Like I was always the first one to crack open a beer. I was always the last one to leave. I was the first one on the dance floor. Like it, I was that guy. And in my early life, that sustained me through a lot of social awkwardness and anxiety and things like that. And I didn't realize that same thing that I guess I adopted

to kind of protect me when I was younger, you run that ahead 20 years and it's killing me. And so to take that armor off, I had to go back and look at like, why do you feel like you need to be the party guy? Well, probably because you feel like if you're not the party guy, people aren't going to want to hang out with you. Well, like, why do you feel that way? What was this realization happening? How long ago? This was all, so all these questions that I'm kind of running through, I would say it was a gradual process over the last two years. Really? Yeah. Wow, man. And how old are you now?

I'm 39. That's interesting. I just turned 40 in March and it's like the last three years for me too, man. Yeah. like asking all these questions, unwinding certain, I want to say relationships, but just focusing to spend my energy more with a certain amount of people that I don't have to show up for in a certain way, that I can just be 100% authentic, have the conversations I want, and not feel bad about something or feel pressured,

similar in a certain way, I guess. Do you feel part of it is the age? Like it's, I, I definitely, there's definitely a sense, my wife and I, we talk about this a lot, that there's definitely a sense she just turned 40. I'm about to turn 40 next year. Like there's kind of this sense of like, we don't have time to around anymore. It's like when you're, when you're 30, it's like, okay, yeah, you could waste a year hanging out with people you don't actually like. But it's like when you're 40, you're like's like okay yeah you could waste a year hanging out with people you don't actually like but it's like when you're 40 you're like no i don't have time

for this it don't man yeah it don't and i 40 didn't hit me where i was like oh i need to like i don't know freak out or buy a ferrari yeah i don't have that feeling i did buy my first home but i didn't feel like i need this because whatever to feel something. Yeah. It more just felt right because my relationship felt peaceful. I was like, okay, I can take this step now. Yeah. But I have a buddy of mine who's just turned 40 over the weekend and he was, he wasn't having a crisis, but he was like, yeah, what am I doing with my life? Yeah.

With some, in some ways and kind of like reevaluating a lot, you know, not in a negative way, but I think it hits you where you're like, okay, there's a new decade that I just completed. What is important in my life? What I want my time and energy to be invested in. What I want to make sure that I create or generate or do before it's too late. And I think that's important things to ask ourselves at all times. But so it sounds like in the last two or three years you started asking these questions what was the what has been the big realization for you underneath it all i guess it's funny i guess once i've removed you know i've been completely sober for almost a year now um congrats on that man that's big powerful i'm you know once i've removed a lot of the distractions and stopped

doing the things that i don't enjoy doing both professionally and personally i i think kind of the biggest realization is just that actually life is and can be incredibly simple. Like you really just, you find a few people that you really love and love spending time with. You find a few things that you enjoy doing and you're good doing them. And you find a way to contribute, give back to the world. Like it's not, it's not rocket science. Right. You know, like it's, it's, I think, I think that's the other thing is, and this is something that I've, it's so funny being writing about these psychological concepts because it doesn't matter how much you understand them. They still sneak up and get you over and over again. But it's, you know,

one thing I've written so many times is that it's when something is emotionally difficult, we tend to assume it must be complicated, right? It's like, it's emotionally difficult to break up with somebody. So there's gotta be like a 17 step procedure that I can learn and rehearse. You know, it's like, no, you just break up. Right. Right. Right. It's just, it just really hurts. Like that's, it's painful. You got to experience it. Very simple, extremely, extremely painful. And what, you know, what I've noticed, I think when I was younger and I had a lot more emotional turmoil and, uh, self-esteem issues and questions about my life and the world, like I assume that everything must be super complicated and that, you know, I've got to like get out and go do these 12 things and read 100 books and like take notes on everything and study everything and it's like you know now

i kind of look i'm like actually no it's pretty straightforward like you you you need a handful of great relationships you need one or two great pursuits in your life. And then you need a way to give back or a positive way to spend your free time. And, and then you just keep doing that until you die. Right. Right. And that's about it. Like stay healthy, stay healthy. And, and it's, it's, it's not, there's no like secret code or, or algorithm or anything.

Like it's just, you find the few things that work for you and you just rinse and repeat consistency with it man over and over did you ever have that feeling of like okay the subtle art 300 something weeks on the new york time bestseller list did you ever think like okay will i ever be able to do this type of results physically again in terms of numbers success metrics yeah that ever mess with you or big time really big time yeah it's and i i'm glad you used the word metrics because and again the irony this is actually in the book like i literally talk about this in the book about there's a whole chapter about be careful how you define success. Choose your metrics wisely, because depending on the metrics you choose to measure success, you can get yourself into trouble.

Right? So my metric for success, when I was an aspiring writer, when I was writing this book, when this book came out, my metric for success was I want to get to the top of the New York Times, sell a million copies, do all this, right? And what I never considered is that I would exceed those goals by so much that I would almost trap myself, right? And so I quickly, when the book blew up, I quickly found myself in a position of like, oh my God, nothing I ever do is going to be this successful again. Really? That quick? Within a couple months or something?

It took a year or two. Wow. And that, there was an immense amount of psychological stress from that. Wow. Of like, I'm 32

and everything is downhill. Oh my gosh. Right? And like, that's a terrible place to be, but that is genuinely what I felt for a number of years.

Even with all the checks coming in and all the success and all the opportunities, you felt that way. Yeah. It doesn't, again, it comes back to what are the metric, like how are you measuring success, right? Like to me, like the checks, it's like, you know, cool, whatever. After you get it for a while, you're kind of like, okay. Yeah.

Money has never been a big driver of mine, ever. It's more been quality of the work, but also reach. It's always mattered to me a lot that I'm reaching a lot of people and I'm impacting a lot of people. And a lot of my definition of success was tied up in that. And this hit so hard and so wide that by that definition, it was all downhill. Right. And so I had to change that definition. Like I had to redefine what success is for myself. So I actually, there were probably a few years I fell imprisoned is probably too strong of a word. You know, imprisoned by the success of subtle art.

But like, I'm maybe confined or trapped a little bit. At some point, it was actually when I took the time off last year that like that flipped. when I took the time off last year that like that flipped where it was like, it stopped being, instead of measuring myself against this book for the rest of my life,

which makes no sense whatsoever, I started seeing it as just like a blessing of like, look, this thing is basically bankrolling anything you want to do for the rest of your life. Any like crazy startup idea any like

stupid indie film like and you know if you want to go buy a cabin in the mountains like this thing is going to bankroll whatever crazy idea you come up with for the rest of your life this thing's bankrolling it so like why don't you just be grateful and appreciate this all right don't be stressed about trying to recreate it yeah exactly and so and to come back to the identity thing because this was actually tied to this it was an epiphany of like i don't have to define myself as an author like i it's funny because before i wrote the book like being able to call myself an author was something I, I aspired to do. I took a lot of pride doing it, especially being defined myself as a bestselling author. Right.

Right. I hit a point where I realized I'm like, I don't have to identify as an author. Like I, I can do other things. I've done done other things i've been successful at other things like an author can just be one of many things i do and and as soon as that simple little thing switched in my head it became very liberating oh man that's beautiful i've got a few final questions for you this has been inspiring again if i don't know who of my audience hasn't read the book yet but make sure you guys get the subtletle Art of Not Giving a F... If you haven't got it, make sure to get a few copies. It's always a big hit for every family, friend group, community. Get a few copies, pass them out.

You're also... Your YouTube channel, I love. I love the content you're making on there now. It's interesting because you're talking about, you know, social anxiety of, like, needing to go out in the past to, like, drink and be liked or be seen in a certain way. I think you were talking about, you know, social anxiety of like needing to go out in the past to like drink and be liked or be seen in a certain way. I think you were talking about, you know, looking a certain way in front of people. And you've got this new series you're creating on YouTube, which is taking readers out in your community and helping them overcome different challenges.

And the first one is with a woman who's got social anxiety. Yep. And you're taking her through all these different challenges and adventures to overcome them. Yeah. And there's a big kind of prize at the end, if you will, when it's not what people think it might be. So I want people to check out your YouTube channel, which is really cool. And is that I am Mark Manson? Is that on YouTube?

Yeah. Or what's your name? Mark Manson? If you just type Mark Manson in YouTube, you'll find it. But make sure you guys check that out. Get on your newsletter, markmanson.net. Get the book. We'll have it all linked up as well.

But your YouTube is a lot of fun, and you're putting a lot of energy, time, resources into making these really cool, almost like a little reality show series. So make sure you guys check that out. A few final questions I want to ask you. If you could go back seven years, the day this book came out, Subtle Art came out, and you could tell yourself from this perspective,

one thing about love, one thing about success, and one thing about self-worth that you know now from everything you've learned in the past seven years to the day this came out, that first day, that first week, what would you share? You know, it's funny. It's one of those things that's like, I don't know if I would have listened to my, you know? Right. You probably would have. You're like, I got to figure it out. Yeah. Like this is the thing about giving your past self advice at least my past self would have been like

what do you know old man like a bit too stubborn yeah go back to 2023 um you said love success and self-worth yes it's funny with love like i don't know it's one of those things where like when you when you put it in the words it just sounds very banal and lame you know but it's the steadiness of it over a long period of time it's something that you can't really the feeling of security that you have when you've spent over a decade with the same person and they've been by your side through everything like it's something you can't really put into words and obviously you can't find just go find it down the street right like it's it is something that you literally put in the time for. And, um, I, as somebody who struggled with commitment early in my life, um, that, that's something that I,

that the value in that is something that I never really thought about, um, for most of my life. And it's, it's been a real joy to get to experience it that's cool um success i'd just be like dude buckle up like wow it's a ride man no idea what's coming um i think the advice i would i would give that person because you know my my mentality and again i remember having this conversation with my wife i remember telling her i'm like look this might not last like it's one of these things like this thing's yeah it's been a bestseller for 300 weeks or whatever but it's like when it's been a bestseller for 10 weeks you never know when it's gonna stop like you you keep thinking you're like

okay maybe another month and then and then we. Right. So the mentality was very much, just say yes to everything. Like this is probably not statistically, this isn't going to last for more than a few months. So every invitation, every opportunity, every media appearance, like just say yes, just do it. You're young. You don't have any kids. Like, right. You know, you'll sleep later. Right. Sure. Well, after a few years of that, like that starts, later right sure well after a few years of that like that starts that starts adding up so i i would go back and just tell myself you know i know i know there's a little bit of scarcity mindset here but like don't forget that you can say no to things and and it's going to be okay. Self-worth, you know, it's funny because I don't, it's actually strange, I think, how little self-worth I ended up tying up in this stuff. I'm actually, it's funny. One of the joys of coming back to my internet business the last year,

I strangely, I take a lot more pride and derive a lot more self-worth from that. I think than my books or the movie. And I don't know why that is. It's very strange huh you know when my movie came out there was it was surprising how much other people expected me to care way more than I did like other people were like wow this must be like it's a big deal and this is a this is your capstone moment in your life and it really you know like it and a big deal and this is a this is your capstone moment in your life and it's you know like it's and everybody from the the studio people at the studio to friends and family

to you know people in my publisher they're like man like got your old movie it's actually it's gonna be in a theater like this must be like a thing and i'm like put it out there yeah yeah like it's just it's more content right you, like it's just, it's more content, right? Uh-huh. You know, so it's just, I think I'm just an internet dude.

Like, and it's, and I think I have more of my identity and self-worth tied up in the entrepreneurial side. Mm,

that's cool. And then, then necessarily like the, um, being a public figure. Yeah, yeah. This is a question I asked you,

it must have been four or five years ago in the last interview, but you're in a much different space energetically now with more life experience. It's called the three truths. So imagine, maybe you don't remember because you're in your eighth interview that day, but imagine a hypothetical scenario and question.

We went into your past self. We're going to go to a future self. Imagine you get to live as long as you want. And now that you're on this health kick, you're going to live with your hundred something. And, um, you get to accomplish and create and be everything you want to be for the rest of your life. But it's the last day, many years away. Okay. And in this hypothetical world, you have to take everything with you you've created.

So no one has access to any of your books, movies, content, YouTube, or whatever you create in the future. It's all going to go somewhere else. Yeah. But you have a piece of paper and a pen and you get to write three lessons that you would leave with the world. I like to call them three truths. Okay.

This is all we have to remember your content by for the rest of time. Oh my God. What would be those three truths you would leave behind? I would say probably the most important one would be don't be afraid of failure or pain, that that's actually where the joys and successes of life are hidden. And be careful how you measure success because no matter how you choose those things, life's going to sneak up on you and bite you in the ass. It's going to find a way. I guess the third thing, I don't know, maybe it's because we opened with this, but love is not enough.

Love is great, but it can't be the foundation of a healthy relationship. It amplifies a healthy foundation. Got one more question for you. One final question, but I want to make sure everyone gets the book. If you haven't already read it, make sure you get a few copies. You've got a few other books as well. Grab those. Movie. YouTube channel. Make sure to subscribe to that. How else can we be of service to you today?

Oh, man. I don't know. It's like, enjoy your day. Enjoy your day. That's it, man. I love it. Take care of yourself. Yeah.

Show appreciation to people you care about. For sure, man. Yeah. I want to acknowledge you for a moment, Mark, because, again, when I saw you last, I didn't recognize you. Yeah. Show appreciation to people you care about. For sure, man. Yeah. I want to acknowledge you for a moment, Mark, because again, when I saw you last, I didn't recognize you. Yeah. You have continued to transform the inside, not just the external success and all the different results you've gotten by creating more great content, but by creating a different world internally and from shifting from more analytical to what it sounds like more emotional in your body and

really taking a deeper dive into those those wounds maybe from the past so i really acknowledge you for going on the journey i know how gary and painful it has been for me and i can imagine it hasn't been easy to dive into those things so i really really acknowledge you. It's hard to let go of certain physical things like drinking or socializing in certain ways when you've done it for so long. It's hard to let go of certain beliefs, uh, conversations, friendships. So I really acknowledge you for going on this healing journey, man. It's really beautiful to watch. Yeah.

Appreciate that. Of course. Final question. What is your definition of greatness? Ah, I mean, don't don't don't i get like this is my third time here don't i get a pass on this one i feel like i feel like this is this is i feel like it's evolved yeah i think it's evolved it's not the same for five years ago by the way if anybody wants to uh you know check if my answers i bet they're different yeah Then you could probably go back to my first interview. Um, definition of greatness. I mean, I would just say, um, living up to the standards for, for impact and contribution you have for yourself in the world.

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