The School of Greatness - Master the Art of Setting Healthy Boundaries & Building Life-Long Relationships EP 1454

Episode Date: June 16, 2023

The Summit of Greatness is back! Buy your tickets today – summitofgreatness.comIn today’s Masterclass episode, the topic of setting relationship boundaries takes center stage. We explore the significance of boundaries in fostering healthy connections and preserving one's emotional well-being. 6 relationship experts delve into the importance of self-awareness and understanding one's own needs and limits before effectively communicating them to others. This episode emphasizes the role of boundaries in establishing mutual respect, trust, and open communication within relationships.Nedra Tawwab, a sought-after relationship expert and a licensed therapist with 12 years of practice in relationship therapy. In this episode, she will talk about why boundaries are the only way to feel at peace, how to set boundaries for ourselves, and what we should do with people in our lives who continue to cross these boundaries.Melissa Urban is the co-founder and CEO of Whole30 and an authority on helping people create lifelong healthy habits. She is a seven-time New York Times bestselling author and has been featured on People, Good Morning America, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, Forbes, and CNBC.Jordan Peterson shares insights from his marriage of 50 years, and how to start opening yourself up to what you want in life. Jordan also has some surprising things to teach us about marriage, discipline, resentment, and memory. Esther Perel shares how relationships are truly a mirror into your own thoughts and feelings – and if we don’t take the time to nurture them properly and tap into our full range of emotions, we run the risk of our relationships being even more challenging than they need to be. In this episode you will learn,Why boundaries are the only way to feel at peace.How to set boundaries for ourselves and what we should do if people in our lives continue to cross our boundaries.The common issue between relationships that don’t work.How to step away from people who don’t respect boundaries.The hidden challenges of creating boundaries for yourself.For more information go to www.lewishowes.com/1454Nedra Tawwab’s full episode: https://link.chtbl.com/1085-guestMelissa Urban’s full episode: https://link.chtbl.com/1376-guestJordan Peterson’s full episode: https://link.chtbl.com/1093-guestEsther Perel’s full episode: https://link.chtbl.com/1291-guest

Calling all conscious achievers who are seeking more community and connection, I've got an invitation for you. Join me at this year's Summit of Greatness this September 7th through 9th in my hometown of Columbus, Ohio to unleash your true greatness. This is the one time a year that I gather the greatness community together in person for a powerful transformative weekend. People come from all over the world and you can expect to hear from inspiring speakers like Inky Johnson, Jaspreet Singh, Vanessa Van Edwards, Jen Sincero, and many more. You'll also be able to

dance your heart out to live music, get your body moving with group workouts, and connect with others at our evening socials. So if you're ready to learn, heal, and grow alongside other incredible individuals in the greatness community, then you can learn more at lewishouse.com slash summit 2023. Make sure to grab your ticket, invite your friends, and I'll see you there. We think that acceptance looks like everything will be better, when in actuality, it is seeing a person as they are. You can want something to be different until the end of time, but this is the situation. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock

your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Welcome to this special masterclass. We've brought some of the top experts in the world to help you unlock the power of your life through this specific theme today. It's going to be powerful, so let's go ahead and dive in. What do people, it seems like people have a lot of dysfunction in families. Because parents are human beings who have no lot of dysfunction in families.

Because parents are human beings who have no clue what they're doing. Siblings are human beings who have no clue what they're doing. Aunties and uncles, human beings, have no clue what they're doing. We have an expectation based on their role. We think, oh my gosh, once you become a mother, there's all of these things.

Once you become a father, once you become an uncle, like you'll know how to communicate with kids. No, I don't know how to, you know, like, so these things, these expectations, not that they're unreasonable, but the person can't, you know, they can't meet it. They don't grow up. They have their own, you know, demons they're unreasonable, but the person can't, you know, they can't meet it. They don't grow up. They have their own, you know, demons they're fighting.

They aren't emotionally mature. They're not reading a ton of self-help books. They haven't been to therapy. So our expectation of people, sometimes they can't be met. And that's a tough pill to swallow that although this person is a parent, they may not be nurturing. Although this person is a sibling, they may not be supportive. Although this person is your grandparent, they may have another favorite, you know, like all of these things that happen in family. I think we think of dysfunction as abuse, neglect.

But it's also, you know, when someone dies and everybody's fighting over an inheritance. It's also, you know, having issues with your in-laws. It's also sabotaging your sister's wedding. It's also it's so many things. And that's why I think people identify because so many people in the family. I mean, pick a person. Someone's messed up somewhere. Yeah, somewhere. I mean, it's not the nuclear family, but gosh, those cousins. It's somewhere.

Yeah. I love in your dedication, you say, we are the answer, not the people we can't control. How do we learn to self-soothe in dysfunctional family relationships? Because one, you're talking about addressing, you know, as an adult, the parent or the person that maybe you caused upset or pain, right? It's addressing and having a conversation, writing a letter. And we may not get a good response. Hopefully we do, but we may not. How do we learn to self-soothe and mend and heal even when the other person attacks us or blows up even more? Acceptance. Those words, yeah. It's all about acceptance.

But it's such a process. I was talking to a friend the other day who was talking about her relationship with a family member who isn't what she wants that person to be. And she said, I don't know if I accept her. I said, you do, because you don't invite her into spaces that you know she won't fit in. We think that acceptance looks like everything will be better when in actuality it is seeing a person as they are and knowing that you are powerless to change it. Yeah. So this is this is my mother. This is my mother and father. This is my sibling.

You can want something to be different until the end of time. But this is the situation. Given the situation I have, what do I want to do about it? Often we want the other person to do something about it. The person who has exhibited, you know, all of these things were like, why don't you get sober? Why don't you start being more nurturing? You don't call me more often. You're not doing this. I had a game and you did. It's like the acceptance of that is this person is whatever this thing is. How do I be in this relationship with them or choose not to be in this relationship with them? How do I create closeness? How do I create distance? What can I do to change this situation? Because we're often trying to change people who aren't interested in changing. They aren't going to therapy. They aren't reading these books. It's like you getting the enlightenment and being like, oh, they need to change now that I know this term for them. It's like they're a gaslighter.

They must change. It's like, they're not reading that book. You're reading the book. And maybe they don't want to change. They don't want to change. They're fine with their behavior. So what will you do when they continue to do these things? Acceptance and boundaries is what it sounds like, right?

I remember for years, I just used to be kind of frustrated with my mom when I was like an adult, 21, let's say. Took me a while to become an adult, but I'd say after 21, right? I get frustrated with her because I felt like she kept treating me like a child, right? And I didn't like that feeling and I wanted her to change. And I don't know, 10, 15 years went by, she didn't change.

And I expressed my frustrations and all these things. Didn't change, right? She looked at me as her little baby, even though I was a grown man at the time. And it was frustrating. And I had to learn to accept her. And it wasn't until maybe like five years ago where I fully had acceptance of my mom, like this is who she is. It's not going to change, but I can create boundaries and, you know, make sure I set

a boundary for myself so it doesn't affect me as much and just love her for who she is. And it's been a beautiful experience for me. I feel a lot more joy thinking about my mom, knowing that this is the way she is and it's okay as long as I put boundaries in place. So, but why do you think it's so hard for us to accept the people we love the most because we would rather put the duty of doing the work on others in the situation you just described with your mother if she would have changed when you were 21, oh, the easiness. Much easier, right? So much easier.

But if you had to place a boundary, oh, the work you had to do. Oh my gosh. We get so upset at people for making us, why are they emailing me on vacation? Because you're responding. How do you stop responding? You know know the work that we have to do in our relationships with people it is it's almost like we get upset with them for making us do the work

when really they're just being themselves yes if you don't want to be treated like a child how do you become more of an adult? Create boundaries. You create those boundaries. So when your mom is like, tell me about your girlfriend, you're like, I don't want to talk about it. And then your mom is like, oh, he doesn't have to tell me everything anymore.

So it's you doing that work. Your mom can always ask and you can always place that boundary. Exactly. You say, I don't want to talk about it right now. Mom, let's talk about something else or whatever. And I need you to wash my clothes. I don't need you to figure out what I'm doing with my... You have to be the person to say that because your mom is operating in the capacity that she knows. Absolutely. Yeah. That's beautiful. What else do you think people get wrong about family dynamics, siblings, parents, kids, and what else do we need to know about this?

One of the things we get wrong is that if we are honest about what the relationship is, that we will lose our love for the person. Can you give me an example? If I say my mother was unkind, that means I don't love her. You know, that doesn't mean you don't love her. It just means she was unkind. Maybe sometimes, maybe all the time.

I don't know, but you could still love people who do things to you or who cause you to feel a certain way. And sometimes we don't know that. We think if we say anything bad about someone, it means that we don't love them, that we're betraying them. And both of those things can exist. When I find people talking about their parents, they will say all of these nice qualities because they're trying to make them not seem like a bad person. When we talk about our partners, we'll say, you know, I really love this person. They've been there for me. They always listen to me.

And then, you know, like we we we are trying to say, I really love them And I don't want to say anything bad about them. And we don't have to protect the truth. We don't have to protect the person from everything that we feel about them. One thing we've been practicing in our house, I have two daughters. And they are at that age where they bicker all the time. And, oh, she's annoying. And I say, everyone in this house is annoying. You, your sister, your dad, the dog, the TV, sometimes it's too loud. This is normal in relationships. We're not going to always get it right. And if

we have an expectation of perfection in a relationship sometimes i'm going to say the wrong thing and i want you to be able to you know what sometimes you say the wrong thing sometimes you're unkind sometimes you annoy me sometimes that happens in relationships and we should be able to talk about the totality of the relationship not just the good parts. And, you know, they're really amazing in these ways, but, you know, I felt neglected when that really hurt when you said, I wish you would have done more of those are also things we should say. How does someone get someone to trust them? Or is it not about them at that stage and it's about the other person and their insecurities? Well, it depends very much on the particulars of the situation.

So I don't know if there's a generic answer to that. I think that you can establish the ground rules explicitly, you know, and have a discussion about it. Are we going to lie to each other or not? Are we going to tell each other the truth to the degree that we can to make that an actual goal and to talk through the consequences of doing that and not doing it? And then I would also say, whenever a hiccup occurs in the relationship, maybe you don't call it out at each hiccup, you know, because you have to have a certain amount of silent tolerance in any relationship to let small infractions go.

But if they repeat, my rule is three times. And it's the rule that I share with my wife. If something happens three times that is causing emotional upset, anger, jealousy, disappointment, resentment, frustration, any of those things, anything that you don't want to experience and that you especially don't want to experience repeatedly, then you can call it out. And if you have three examples, your case is much better made than if you just have one. And I would also say that when you call it out, you could say, look, we were at a party the other night and it looked to me, I felt as if you were paying too much intense attention to Dave.

There was flirting going on there. That's what it looked like to me. There was some flirting going on there. And, you know, that made me uncomfortable. Well, you don't say, well, you were flirting. Stop doing it. You say, well, this is how it looked. This is what it looked like to me.

And here was my response. And then you want to think, and maybe I'm a fool and blind and jealous and stupid. And I'm misinterpreting. Or maybe it was a harmless flirtation of the sort that people will engage in because it adds a little bit of spice to a social interaction. You want to find out. It's really convenient if it's the other person's fault except then you're laden with living with that person so it really doesn't help you anyways but it's convenient because then they have to change but you've got to think about this over

the long run you're going to be interacting with this person on a minute by minute basis for decades if you're the idiot and that's causing trouble, then you should find out. So you want to say, well, look, this is what I saw. What's your explanation of what's going on? And then they'll offer you their viewpoint. And hopefully they'll do the same thing. They'll think, well, this is my intent. And maybe they have to go think about it. But this is my intent and maybe they have to go think about it but this is my intent and this is what I saw and I think you're being over sensitive in that situation and you peel back the explanations layer by layer until you both agree on what happened and more importantly on what you're going to do about it in the

future and that's really hard And especially if there is something going on that's not straight, because that will require quite a bit of digging. It'll probably result in anger and tears and a fight. And that's very unpleasant. It's easier in the short term to avoid that. But hopefully the consequence of that is you don't have to have that fight again.

Right. You have to come to a negotiated agreement about that situation. And you have to pay attention to your own uncomfortable negative emotions in order to manage that and not pretend that everything's all right, or that you're nicer than you are, or that you're less jealous than you are, or less blind. See, one of the things I learned from Carl Jung, the psychoanalyst about marriage, was that there is a reason marriage was a vow. The vow is that you stick together. Okay, so now imagine that's a vow. Okay.

You do not get to leave period. Okay. So what does that mean? Well, on the upside, it means that you don't have to be alone. It means that your family will have continuity over decades. It means that the narrative of your life won't be fragmented and broken by divorce or sequential divorce. It means that the narrative of your life won't be fragmented and broken by divorce or sequential divorce. It means that your children can grow up and maybe have their children within a continuing family. It means that your children will be able to maintain relationships with the grandparents on both sides and the cousins. It's a big deal to maintain that there's huge

advantages in it it means that you'll have someone there when you're not well and so will your partner um and it'll means that you have someone to share all of the positive things of life with so there's huge advantages to it okay so why does it have to be a vow? Well, I don't think you can tell the truth to someone who can run away. Because if you tell the truth to someone, and they can run away, then they'll run away. Right? Because you're a mess, man. And not just because of your own inadequacies, but because human beings are so complicated and have such dark corners and have had unresolved problems in their life, sometimes that stem back generations, and are twisted and bent in all sorts of ways.

It's very, very difficult to reveal that except to someone who can't run away now that that you know i'm not saying that people should never separate i i am saying though that it's better not to if you can manage it but then the other thing too is if you can't run away then you're motivated in a different way it's like i'm stuck with this woman and she's stuck with me and unless we want to have this same fight over and over and over for the next who knows how long why don't we straighten it out and then we can put it behind us see that the vow gives you a kind of desperation that is another motivation to actually solve the problems. And if you've got a way out, you can always stay hidden. You can guard yourself.

You can protect yourself and even protect that part of yourself that thinks that it can leave if things get too bad. Now, the problem with that, in my estimation, is that you're going to drag your stupidity into the next relationship. Right. Always do, right? Well, generally speaking, right? And so now you can get very, you can, under unfortunate circumstances, you can get tangled up with someone who's not playing a straight game with you and won't. And it's just impossible.

But I'm not talking about the limit cases, you know. I'm talking about the average case, the average amount of unhappiness and trouble. It's still plenty. Sorry, just one more thing i'd add to that you also have to in some sense shake the illusion that the other person is somehow not you you're so tied up with them that there's no difference between you and them in some sense is that what's good for her is going to be good for you and vice versa. One of the things we try to do to the two of us is we try to say yes to each other. Now, there's rules that go along with that, which is, well, I'm going to say yes to you.

But that sort of means that you shouldn't ask me unreasonable. You shouldn't make unreasonable demands. I'll say yes as much as I possibly can. And then you'll do that in return. And then we get yes out of the deal instead of no. Um, that's also a huge plus. What do you think are the, the boundaries that people fail to set the most in these relationships that don't work and that continue not to set the most in these relationships

that don't work and that continue not to work over time. What do we fail to set once we realize there's massive breakdowns? Yeah, I mean, I think, and this is the real challenge, is that when you're in a relationship breakdown or things aren't going well, and I hear stories like this from thousands of people all the time, right, where it's like I, in heterosexual relationships, the wife is doing all of the

household management and all of the childcare and the expectations are only placed on her. And it's like, she's the default for everything. And she has to ask her husband to help and pitch in and babysit his own kids. And she comes to me and me and says like I don't know what to do in this situation the challenging thing is that at that point you can't solve that with a simple boundary right the boundary has to be like I am going to go to therapy myself to explore what my options are because at this point the way this relationship is working is not working for me right but if we go back to like some of the things we've talked about, even earlier on in a relationship, I think setting a boundary like right away in a relationship immediately, even before you start dating can be a super good litmus test for how well you can

communicate. So it's like, we're talking about going on a first date and it's like, oh, by the way, I don't drink. So I'd love to meet you for happy hour. I'll just have like a tea and see if there's pressure. See if that is weird. See if they give you like pushback on that. Or you can talk about, you know, before you get intimate, like, by the way, you know, this is what I said to my husband, like, by the way, you're wearing a condom. And until we both get STD tested and like swap tests, that's going to continue. And like, if that isn't respected, that's an immediate relationship ender for me. Like that's it, right?

So I think it can be helpful early on to set boundaries in relationships just to see how you discuss them, how you each view them. Do they see it as selfish? And if so, can you have that conversation? Do they push back? How do they handle when you navigate that pushback? I think that can be really important.

What about with children? You know, as a parent, I don't have kids yet, so I can't relate to that. I can relate to my experience as a kid being obnoxious to my parents and probably driving them crazy and understanding that it's challenging for parents. How do healthy, conscious parents create healthy boundaries with kids without neglecting their kids emotions feelings and needs yeah I think the two are definitely not mutually exclusive so I think the first thing that you can do as parents is model healthy boundaries for your kids so it is me you know saying to my husband like

hey I need a half an hour of alone time I'm gonna go to my room I'll come back out you know after I'm feeling a little bit more refreshed like when my son son watches us do that, he recognizes that like in this family, it's okay to say no, that people don't get mad when you say no, that mom's taking responsibility for her own feelings. So we've been modeling healthy boundaries, but I've had boundaries with my son from the very earliest age and I have set boundaries on his behalf. So one of the earliest boundaries I set with him or for him was when you visit grandma or grandpa or Nana and pop-pop and, or auntie Kelly, and you don't see them very often. You don't have to hug or kiss if you don't want to, we have to be polite and say goodbye and say, thank you. But you can hug, you can kiss, you can wave, you can fist bump,

you can make a funny face. You can, you know, high five, whatever you want, but you don't have to hug or kiss if you don't want to. And so we had this like issue once with my mom where she was like, I really want to hug. Like, I haven't seen him in such a long time. I only see him a few times a year. And I'm like, I get it, but he doesn't want to hug you. And like, you need to respect that. And she did. And I recognized that it was disappointing for her. But also what I taught my son was that you have agency. And if you don't want to hug, you don't have to. And so now, you know, I'll come sit next to him on the couch when he's nine and I'll be like, hey, do you want to watch Naked and Afraid and like do a little snuggle? And he'll be like, I'd love to watch the show, but I don't want to snuggle.

That's fine. Yeah, that's good. Wow. So we've raised him in the culture of boundaries and he feels now comfortable setting boundaries with me. And you know boundaries really create a sense of safety for kids they do because they you know realize that the adults in their household are taking responsibility for their own feelings that boundaries are not about pushing other people away they're about you know creating that sense of like family in a way that works for everybody. And I think they feel really safe to my kid. And what are the biggest boundaries you've had to create for yourself, healthy boundaries for you individually, separate from family and loved ones? Zillions. I think boundaries with yourself are so incredibly powerful because they only rely on one

person to hold them. And you can immediately reclaim your time, your energy, your capacity, your mental health, your physical space and sense of safety. That's an immediate benefit from you setting one boundary with yourself. The challenging thing is that if you don't keep that boundary, what's going to happen? If you say to yourself, I'm not gonna check my phone in the morning before I do my morning routine, which is one of my most beloved boundaries

and the one that I've set for many, many years and the one that I still hold to, if I do roll over and check my phone before I go to the gym and do my meditation, like nobody's gonna jump out of the closet and slap the phone out of my hand. So I will know. And what's gonna happen is that there will be a massive ripple effect to future

Melissa. Really? I think about future me all the time. Tell me more. What is the decision that I'm making right now and how is it going to impact future Melissa? Because current Melissa is going to be so happy to just stay up late and not start her bedtime routine and just do one more show on Netflix. But what will this mean for future Melissa? She's going to be really mad at herself because she didn't get to bed on time. And then she's going to fall asleep late. And then she's probably not going to have as good a night's sleep. And then when she wakes up tomorrow, she's not going to be pumped for the gym. And she might even skip it because she's going to be tired. If she skips the gym before she does this interview, she's like not going to be a good guest because she won't

feel grounded and centered. Like when I play it out that way, it makes it a lot easier for me to be like, go to bed because future Melissa will benefit. So I have boundaries with myself where I'm not checking my phone in the morning before I do my morning routine, not checking my phone in the half hour before bedtime. So I'm not checking Twitter one more time or email one more time. I have really strong boundaries. When I'm out of office, I am out of office. Unless something is on fire, you do not call or text me and I will not be checking text messages or emails. So, I think I set boundaries with myself pretty often

because I know that they can be like an instant sense. They can give me an instant sense of freedom. And nobody else has to even worry about it. What's the boundary you set in the last two years for yourself that has given you the most benefit? I think I've become more rigorous about what I say yes to in terms of work opportunities. It's hard as an entrepreneur not to feel like you have to or should say yes to everything. And if I don't say yes to this, maybe they won't ask me again. Or who knows what this like lunch or coffee could turn into.

But I think, I don't know if we talked about this, but like four years ago, I got a concussion. I'm still going through post-concussion symptoms that are triggered by air travel, events like this, speaking events, in-person events, like any kind of stressor can set my concussion symptoms off. And that forced me to become more rigorous about what I say yes to. So now, again, I kind of have this automatic pause before I say yes to anything. Even something that I think I'm super excited about, it's like quick pause. Can you work this into your schedule? Will you have capacity to do this?

What else is this going to push off your plate? And is that acceptable to you? What are the things you're going to have to make up when you get back home? And then once I think about that, I either say yes or no. And if I say no, it's because again, I know I'm serving future me. I can be disappointed, but I can also be happy that I've checked in with my own needs. So that I think I've really dialed in on the last couple of years. And I think it's made a big in with my own needs. So that I think I've really dialed in on the last couple of years. And I think it's made a big difference in my overall capacity. Wow. Yeah.

What boundary are you to set for yourself next year that you haven't done yet? I don't know. I'm not a New Year's resolution person. I tend to just take on these like self-improvement things as I stumble across them. Yeah. Like I started my cold shower experiment in February, two years ago, just randomly. So I'm not a New Year's resolution person, and there is no one size fits all for boundaries. I won't know what my needs are next year until I get to next year.

And I'm in the moment and I go, my context has changed, my capacity has changed, my goals have changed. Do I still, I'm always reevaluating my boundary. Do I still need a boundary here? And if so, is this the boundary that I need? Because they should be flexible. And I shouldn't keep a limit in place that no longer serves me. So I don't know.

Ask me next year. What do you see since you've been working through this book for a while now? You've heard a lot of conversations from people, single, in relationships, family challenges, different things. What do you see that society needs in general to create better and healthier boundaries around? Welcome to my favorite TED Talk. It's just with social media, with work, with all the political stuff. Just what do people need in general moving into next year, you think? I mean, we need, honestly, so much of the root of why boundaries feels like such an

icky subject to so many people. And I will say, especially women, especially moms, is because we have been conditioned by the patriarchy and stereotypically rigid gender roles and toxic masculinity, which comes from the patriarchy and religious influences and diet culture and trauma and the media. We've been conditioned for my entire life and even going back further than that to not have needs, to have needs to be selfless especially as a mom we are praised the most when we are putting everyone else's needs and feelings and wants and desires above our own like we're not even on our own list and if we're on the list we're at the very bottom and then when we do have a need and we speak it we either hint about it because we've been told we can't be direct and then we're disappointed that people aren't reading our minds or we're direct about it and we're told that we're selfish or we're called a bitch or any of those other monikers.

societally. And I think there's a lot of unlearning that we all have to do around what it means to have needs and to have those needs feel worthy. And the fact that like you of, you know, your own volition are valuable enough to advocate for those needs. And then to remember that we have the power to advocate for those needs in a way that doesn't involve the other person. If I set a boundary with you, it can't be dependent on what you choose to do. The boundary I set has to depend on me, the actions that I am willing to take in our relationship to keep myself safe and healthy. Give me an example around that. We're in an argument and it starts to get really, really heated. And I say to you,

please don't speak to me like that. It's really making me feel unsafe. I don't like it when you use those words. It's getting personal and we're not focusing on the subject at hand. And you are really mad and really triggered and you kind of keep going with that, right? I can't depend on you to change your communication style. The only thing I can do is say, I won't stay in this argument if this is how we're going to continue to talk about it. I'm going to take a 10-minute break. After 10 minutes, I'll come back to see if you're ready. So I can't depend on you. If I go to my family's house and they're talking about politics and we don't agree with politics, I can say, could we change the subject, please? And if they say no, then I have

to enact my boundary, which is, okay, I'm going to go for a while. I'm going to leave the table. So all of that to say, we have a lot of unlearning to do about what it means to have needs and to advocate for those needs and to speak clearly and what that means as a woman to speak clearly and directly versus what historically it's meant for a woman to speak clearly and directly versus what historically it's meant for a man to speak clearly and directly, right? A man says it and he's decisive. A woman says it and she's aggressive. There's a lot of unlearning that we all have to do, I think, before we can get to the point where we don't automatically think of boundaries as selfish or controlling or manipulative. What I'm hearing you say is the boundary

doesn't rely on another person's reaction. Or if they agree to it or not, it relies on you removing yourself in a conscious way from the situation. Yes. Independent of how they show up. Correct. Now, I'm initially going to phrase most of my boundaries as a request. Because you didn't know I had a limit.

So I'm going to say to you, hey, I could use a half hour of alone time. Would you mind if I go in my room or would you mind taking the dog for a walk or something? And if you say no, then my boundary is to remove myself. So I think that's another common misconception is that, boundaries aren't about telling other people what to do or controlling other people. I may phrase my request in that way as an invitation to meet me in my limit, but I always have a backup plan.

What are the challenges that come up over and over that you see? There's always three questions. What's a thriving relationship? A thriving one. Yeah. What can go wrong and how do you fix it okay so you started with the middle question what goes wrong yes i think there's a number of things in a relationship that that uh that become the the kind of uh cornerstones of the demise okay and i'm not

going to list them in order but they all are part of each other. Indifference and contempt and neglect and violence are probably the four most important. I'm not talking about big violence. Micro aggressions are plenty. Indifference, when you start to feel like the other person fundamentally is not really caring about you anymore or you don't care about them what they feel what they think who they are what they're about they just don't care you've lost interest but it's more than losing of interest it's also when you are indifferent you degrade the other person they're less important to you they don't matter and ultimately what we feel in relationships

is that we matter that is the essential reason for connecting to people is that we are creatures of meaning. I matter to you. I'm someone. You care about me. You want my well-being. You're proud of me. You want good for me. You're benevolent. All of that. When you are indifferent, the whole thing goes. And then you start to, there's that coldness that creeps in that sense of estrangement that complete disconnect that the second one is neglect neglect when people just basically take each other for granted you know I did take more care of their car than of their partner dog or their dog anybody anything their yard anything anything gets attendance business their business for sure their business for sure you know everything

gets priority everything gets reviewed evaluated attended to 360s you name it you know new input my god it's like people have this idea that they put it all in when they were dating and then once they seal the knot it's like as if they tie the knot It's like now they don't have to do squat anymore. And they go into this kind of complete sense of complacency and laziness. It's an amazing thing. They think this thing is just going to live on its own. Right. Like a cactus.

Right. Violence. Violence. The abuse. The level of disrespect. I mean, most people talk nicer to anybody else than their partner when a relationship degrades. Because you can't get away with it. Because you can't get away with it.

Because if you talk like this at work, you're gone. Because if you talk like this with the police, you're gone. Because if you talk like this on the street, you're being punched. But with your partner, you have that sense that they're going to be there anyway. They're just going to take it because it's family. family is this kind of this thing that doesn't dissolve so easily so you can just lash out at them and talk to them with a tone and a dismissal that is phenomenal so that kind of violence i'm not talking physical violence and all the other big big things you're talking about aggression or resentment? All of that.

All of that. Passive aggressiveness, all those things, yeah. All of that. And then contempt, I think, is the top one. Contempt is the killer of them all. Because in the contempt, there is a real, there's the degradation of the other. It's that complete, you're nothing.

You're nothing. I can kill you with that one gaze, that one eyebrow that goes up, that pfft, you know, stuff. Who do you think you are? And that's it. You're done. You're done.

So how do we even get to this place of these places? After having been so in love and so romantic, right? Is desire, reflect that? Or if we're not desiring the person anymore, then we start to feel one of those categories? Or does that not play into it at all? Look, the truth is this. There's only two relationships that resemble each other. The one you have with your parents or the people who raise you

and the one you have with the people you fall in love with. People can sit in my office all the time and say, I have this with no one else. I don't have this with anybody at work. Nobody among my friends ever thinks like that. You're the only one who speaks like this or thinks this about me or with whom I do this.

No, you're the only one and now we go back in history. And I'm sorry to be the psychologist, but that's really, it is the place where we often learned about closeness, trust, loyalty, commitment, sharing, taking, receiving, asking. All these essential verbs of relationships. We learned that at home. We also learned jealousy and all these other things.

Possessiveness, vengeance, you name them. The beauty and the not beauty. Yeah, we saw it all as children, right? We saw the fights. We saw the love. We saw the... We saw the coldness. The beauty and the not beauty. Yeah, we saw it all as children, right? We saw the fights, we saw the love, we saw the, you know. We saw the coldness. The lack of intimacy, the intimacy, yes. Yes, and we bring that with us

and we often promise ourselves, I'll never be this one. I'll never be this way. I'll never talk like this. I'll, you know, and we find ourselves often much closer to the apple. And then resenting ourselves. Apple to the tree.

We resent ourselves. We're like, how did we do that? Why did we get to this place? And then we feel ashamed about it. And since we don't like to feel ashamed about it, we hide it. And one of the ways we hide it is we blame the partner. That's just one of the ways. We are very resourceful in not owning our shit.

Right. Exactly. Exactly. Wow. Okay. And where does sex play in all this and desire? So, I mean, one of the fascinating things for me in looking at sexuality is that it's probably one of the dimensions of relationship that has changed the most in a very very short amount of time for most of history and in still the majority of the world sex is for procreation sex is a marital duty on the part of the woman

nobody cares particularly if she likes it and how she feels and if she wants it and um and men have the privilege to go and find sex elsewhere in a very short amount of time we're talking 60 years we have contraception, which is the liberation of women for the first time to free sex from reproduction, from mortality, from death in pregnancy

and in childbirth, sorry, all of that. And for the first time, sexuality moves from just biology and a condition to a part of our identity and a lifestyle. In 60 years.

In 60 years. In 60 years. The women's movement, which goes after the abuses of power. The gay movement, which introduces the concept of identity to sexuality. The fact that sex is for connection and pleasure. The fact that for the first time we have sex before marriage. And many times, a lot. We used to marry and have sex for the first time. Now we marry and we stop having sex with others.

Okay? Monogamy used to be one person for life. Now monogamy is one person at a time. And people go around telling you, I'm monogamous in all my relationships. And it makes perfect sense to say that. Okay? All of that in a very short amount of time.

The fact that I choose you to marry or to live together doesn't matter commitment because i'm attracted to you because you give me butterflies in my stomach and the fact that i think that if i don't have these butterflies anymore maybe i don't love you anymore and the fact that sexuality in long-term relationships is rooted in wanting only, desire. I feel like it. I want to. Not I have to. Not we want many kids.

After two kids, the only reason to continue doing it with you is because we feel like it. And hopefully it's pleasurable. We connect. It feels good. It rounds up the whole thing. That's it. And hopefully it's at the same time and for each other. Because plenty of desire continues, but it's not always at home.

Right, exactly. So this is an amazing revolution. It's confusing all of us. And how do we sustain it? So that's why I became fascinated in the nature of erotic desire and how do we sustain desire. Because it is the first time ever that we have a grand experiment of the humankind where we want sex with one person in the long haul that is fun and connected and intimate and playful. And we live twice as long. Go figure.

Right. Exactly. For 60 years, you're going to be with them or whatever it is yeah it's an amazing ideal so how do we navigate this if we're going to choose one partner and be with them until you know we're both gone how do we navigate the challenge of keeping the desire continuously i think the both men and women because the woman probably sees other men who are attracted to her and vice versa. So it's like, how do both parties do this?

Look, we know that women get bored with monogamy much sooner than men. Wow. Is this a fact or is this a... That's research. Okay. That's not just fact. That is, men's desire in long-term relationship goes down gradually. He actually is much more able to remain interested. And maybe

just because he's interested in the experience itself and he has a partner there. Women's desire post-marriage romance. Really? Wow. And it's always been translated as, well, that's because women care less about sex. Rather than, it's because women care less about the sex that they can have in their committed relationships, which is often not interesting enough for them. And it often has to do with the fact that the story, the character, the plot is not seductive. The romance, which is an essential ingredient of turn on for the woman, often disappears in the long term relationship. It's like when people look at each other at the end of the day and you want to fool around?

You want to do it? you're up for it tonight now this is really not this is not very much of a turn on for most women and the idea that foreplay often starts at the end of the previous orgasm you know and not five minutes before the real thing right which for her is not the real thing the whole the real thing is everything else so it's essentially the game yes it's creating a game seduction it's a plot it's a coming close it's a tea mystery it's what animals call pacing it's that i come to you but i don't overwhelm you i come just a little bit so that you can come a little bit toward me and then i don't immediately answer i actually go back a little bit too have you ever seen animals they do this kind of pacing and it is an essential playful ingredient of seduction and an excitement so women's desire plummets but we interpret it as women are less interested in sex rather than women are interested in probably

just about the same kind of things that many men are but women have always known what to choose above what turns them on, which was what gives them stability and security in their life. Safety, security, family, someone to protect, be there, right? So what people do, look, we want one partner today to give us everything that involves stability and security and everything that involves playfulness and mystery.

Okay, that's the grand ideal. Okay, I want to be cozy with you and i want to have an edge and i want you to surprise me and i want you to be familiar and i want you to give me continuity and i want you to give me novelty that's it as if it's a right and no victoria's secret is going to solve that yeah right so then there becomes what is desire desire is to own the wanting. If you ask people a question that goes like this, I turn myself off when? I turn myself off by? Not you turn me off when and what turns me off is.

You're going to hear I turn myself off when I do emails, when I spend too much time on the phone, when I overeat, when I don't exercise when I have bad bad days at work when I don't feel confident when I numb myself when I feel dead when I don't feel thriving when I'm not alive you will really hear that it has very little to do with sex and when you ask people I turn myself on when or by, I awaken my desires. Not you turn me on when and what turns me on is, which is you're responsible for my wanting. What people will talk to you about is when I'm in nature, when I'm connected with my friends, when I get to do my sports, when I play music, when I listen to music.

play music, when I listen to music. It's stuff that gives me pleasure, that is alive, that is vibrant, that is vital, that is erotic in the full sense of the word as life force. And from that place, people remain interested in having sex with somebody else for the long haul. Not because they've scratched their arms

for two seconds. Right, right, right. It's, I feel good about myself. The biggest turn on is confidence. Right. Confidence. You ask people, when do you find yourself most drawn to your partner?

Every description has to do with when they're in their element, when they're on stage, when they're doing their sport, when they are radiant, when they are in their studio, on the piano, on the horse, you name it. It's when they are in their sport, when they are radiant, when they are in their studio, on the piano, on the horse, you name it. It's when they are in their element, i.e. they don't need me to take care of them.

They're not depressed and down and lonely and sad. They're not needy. They don't need me because desire is about wanting you. Love is also about needing you. Caretaking is a very powerful experience in love and it is a very powerful anti-aphrodisiac so how do you experience love and desire at the same time you calibrate it so sometimes you're it's the same as when you walk you have to move from one foot to the other a balance is not about staying on one side. A balance is the ability to see

right now we don't need caretaking. We can be mischievous. We can be naughty. We can be playful. We can break our own rules. We can stay home and not go to work at eight o'clock. Right. And now we are in a playful zone. Now we are feeling that we are bringing our own little transgressions home. We are alive. we're not just being dutiful responsible good citizens right it's that it's very small yeah you know when i always think when i go and i see people at lunch and you see them talking and they're well dressed and they're awake and all i seen who is here with their partner because you can see them they They're engaged. They're giving the best of themselves. That's erotic.

No, the majority are not there with their partner. They're there with their friends, with their colleagues. Their partner is going to get the leftover when they come home at night. Sorry, you know what? Forget the night date. Meet at lunch when you actually have energy.

You know? And in the middle of the day like that, when you're awake, when you have something to offer, it's a very small thing, but they don't do it. They don't do it. And you say, why not? Why not?

Why don't you stay an hour extra at home in the morning and not just because when you have a headache and just say, this matters to me. All in all, you know, committed sex is premeditated sex. It's not just going to happen because whatever is going to just happen already has. So you're going to make it happen. Because you say, we matter. We're important. Let's do this. It doesn't mean if you're going to make love or have sex.

It just means we're going to take this hour and there's nothing else that matters in this moment. But just you and I to be together, to check in. And then we'll see what unfolds. That's the erotic space in which sex may happen, probably will, doesn't have to, but it is the place from which it is much more likely to emerge.

But people don't do that. They do the responsibility. That's the love, right? The citizen, the commitment, the caretaking, the burdens, the safe. And then they say, I'm bored. I would be too. Oh, exactly. There's no mystery exactly there's no mystery there's no risk taking right exactly yeah there's no risk taking that's the word if you want desire it's risk and the risk is an emotional risk it's not about sexy risks it's

really a risk on the emotional front is that i bring something else to you differently from the way I typically present myself. Sure. You know, how can I do this? What can I do today that will be different from the ways that I've done it until now? How can I do something that I think would actually improve our relationship? Me, right?

Not something that I want or that you want but that i think would be actually good for us that third entity the us right and you check every time you know how often do you just go on the tried and trodden as in you know it works sex that just works for most people is really not interesting enough right so because what does it mean it works generally right what what about the people listening or saying man that sounds like a lot of work that every day you have to change do something different and unique and be not every day not every day not every day but what you can do every day is just a quick check with yourself you know is there something that I should notice?

Is there something that I can be thankful for? Is there a little note that I could write? Is there, you know, just a way that I can show up? It's small. It's really small. Here's the thing. There is work and then there is the creative work. You know, I'm talking about a level that is creative

and that elevates you and that actually gives you, you feel taller. You just feel like you're engaged. You feel awake rather than this. This is the other seated position. It's comfortable. It's great, but nothing happens here. This, this is alert alert here is the essential

word is curiosity when you're curious you lean forward and you watch you're open to the mysteries of life this is please don't bother me with anything because i don't want any stimulation i've had my share i've been you know and this is the position that most people have at home. So, when people say it's too much work, I basically say, look,

you, you, if I was to say this in your business, would you say this is too much work? Right. Or you would say,

that's very good advice. This is high rate consulting fees. Exactly. It's like, excuse me, but you don't think for a minute that your business would thrive if you let it languish like that never you have a reward system you have incentives bonuses you have bonuses but there is no incentivized system as in the in the private domain so people just think why bother right and That's the difference is that the ones who have good relationships are the ones who created their own internal incentive is incentive a system

What are some of those incentive systems that you've seen over time that really work or effective for long-term relationships? I Would say the first thing is almost one of the first things that our parents teach you. Please and thank you. Do you know how many people stop thanking their partners? Thank you. Thank you for doing this for me. Thank you for picking up the shirts. Thank you for, you know.

Making you feel appreciated. Yes, appreciation. Appreciation is huge. Gratitude. Acknowledgement of the presence of the other in your life. Not, did you do this? Did you call? Did you pick up?

Do this? You know, half the time. Expectations. Expectations. Of course, you know, expectations is often a resentment in the make. With the expectation comes the fear of it's not good. Thank person, first of all.

And because it also makes it feel like this is not a given. With the expectation comes the fear of it's not going to... Tank person, first of all. And because it also makes it feel like this is not a given. Nobody owes you squat. You're not owed anything. You're not that important. You're actually quite replaceable. Right. And with the divorce rate that we have... What's the rate at right now?

We have 50 on first and 65 on second. 65 on second. Wow. It's not good. Right. It's really... What's the rate at right now? We have 50 on first and 65 on second. 65 on second, wow. It's not good. Right. It's really, you know, it costs a lot of money. It's not good for the health. I mean, it's just like, you know, it's not good for the jobs.

It's just, it's like, okay, now you could say maybe people should marry, but it doesn't matter if it's marriage legally. The idea is that we can do better. We can do better in general. I really think that the quality of our lives depends on the quality of our relationships. I mean, nobody's going to write, you know, you worked 60, 70, 80, 90 hours a week.

No, they're going to say he was there for people when they needed to. He was there at every game. He was there at the party the party he's the guy who when you were in his presence he had charisma not because he could stand in front of a huge crowd but he had charisma because when i was in his presence he made me feel special it's a different charisma so appreciation gratitude thank you um little things to go out of your way rather than just to do the minimum. A lot of people start to do the bare minimum

just so that they can't be scolded. Right. Go an extra thing. On occasion, just do something for the other person just because it matters to them even if you couldn't care less. Right. Rather than, it's not important to me,

I don't need this or I don't care about this. Give each other a lot of individual space. Not everything needs to be shared. People have different passions, different interests, different friends, and they need those separate spaces to exist. Admiration, I think, is huge because admiration is also that you kind of really

see the otherness of the other person um don't try to make your partner into one person for everything there is no such a person find multiple sources of connection of intimacy of friendship so that you can have a group of people support you and don't have one person who has to be there for you for everything, especially when you're in the dumpster. We used to have a village of people to do that. Now we just expect one person to be the village, right? Yes, yes, yes. One person for the whole village.

That is a unique... And then we're upset when they don't fulfill the mandate. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts.

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