The School of Greatness - Negotiate With Anyone & Master The Secret of Persuasive Communication w/ Trial Lawyer Jefferson Fisher EP 1473

Episode Date: July 24, 2023

The Summit of Greatness is back! Buy your tickets today – summitofgreatness.com – Jefferson Fisher is a board-certified Texas trial lawyer and founder of Fisher Firm. With his extensive experience as a trial lawyer, Jefferson understands the art of persuading and communicating effectively in high-conflict situations, and is one of the most sought after names in functional thinking for modern day communication. Known for his practical videos and authentic presence, Jefferson has amassed over 5 million social media followers in one year—all from the driver's seat of his car. Jefferson is on a mission to be a messenger of positivity in the world and help people learn to talk to each other again—one conversation at a time.In this episode you will learn,How to have more control in an argumentHow to make your words more powerfulHow to be more likableThree passive phrases to avoidHow to handle people who waste your timeFor more information go to www.lewishowes.com/1473For more Greatness text PODCAST to [phone]Want more episodes like this one?Dean Graziosi on overcoming trauma and unleashing your greatest potential - https://link.chtbl.com/1462-podKaramo Brown on living an authentic life - https://link.chtbl.com/1457-podLewis Howes’ 11 habits for success - https://link.chtbl.com/1449-pod

Calling all conscious achievers who are seeking more community and connection, I've got an invitation for you. Join me at this year's Summit of Greatness this September 7th through 9th in my hometown of Columbus, Ohio to unleash your true greatness. This is the one time a year that I gather the greatness community together in person for a powerful transformative weekend. People come from all over the world and you can expect to hear from inspiring speakers like Inky Johnson, Jaspreet Singh, Vanessa Van Edwards, Jen Sincero, and many more. You'll also be able to

dance your heart out to live music, get your body moving with group workouts, and connect with others at our evening socials. So if you're ready to learn, heal, and grow alongside other incredible individuals in the greatness community, then you can learn more at lewishouse.com slash summit 2023. Make sure to grab your ticket, invite your friends, and I'll see you there. Understand that arguments aren't always meant to be won. So there's a trap of thinking that there can only be one on top of the mountain and if that is true then that's a very lonely place to be and arguments in my view are an opportunity to create understanding welcome to the school

of greatness my name is le is Lewis Howes, a former pro-athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. You are a board-certified Texas trial lawyer that has gone viral on social media with your daily messages of inspiration, building confidence, how to deal with touchy situations and conversations, how to deal with touchy situations and conversations, arguments, how to deal with unpleasant human beings and how to stay calm and peaceful and create amazing outcomes in conversations. And I'm curious with all of your experience as a trial lawyer, where was the time that you were the most in the stickiest situation in a trial where you thought

there's no way I'm going to get out of this or we're not going to win this case because I'm just, I don't have the skillset or it's not going our way. And what did that teach you about how to be more prepared for future cases? So one of my first trials that I had, it was the first one by myself. Often in the legal world, you have like an associate, you have a partner, you have somebody who's with you. And that was the first one by myself. And this was a larger case. And when you get there, there's this perception, especially when you're young, the ink on your signature card isn't, on your bar card isn't dry yet. They can smell the green on it.

Yeah, you have no clue what you're doing. No, and you can feel that pressure because most of the time, even when you're, I don't know, I am 26, 28, I'm younger than my client. And so there's like, but that just happens. You just have confidence in you. Right, right, it's just so there's that level of trust. I mean, I know I'm going to be doing it.

And it was a full panel. You had different juries depending on what court it's in. There's like county courts that are six, different constitutional courts, and a court of 12. That's a typical panel that you see on TV. So this was panel of 12? Yeah, panel of 12.

And it was a larger case case the other side had two attorneys on it from a bigger firm and they were the ones that were like suit and tie looked clean and they were you could it was it ended up working out for me that way but i got in the stitchy sticky situation when i was talking with a witness and I was crossing this witness and I started to get really defensive. I started to let what they were saying get after me. You have the difficult witnesses who- This wasn't your witness.

This was not my witness. This was an expert on the other side. So these are people who are paid obscene amounts of money from the other side to testify on an expert opinion. But this guy was, he was a veteran. I mean, he knew. Oh, he knew what to say. Oh, he just, he chewed me up

like the finest piece of steak, man. I mean, he was, he got me good. But what I took away from that, that was just day one, was, that was just day one. I ended up winning the trial. Okay. But it was, was, let's just say one. I ended up winning the trial. Okay. But it was,

because I didn't allow myself, so we did a second day, that's the second time for him to go on the stand. Oh, wow. And the next day I did something different. I aligned my thoughts of how I wanted to approach the situation before I even got in it.

I didn't do that the first day. Give me an example, what does that mean? Yeah, so typically at what we're doing every day, we're just going by the seat of our pants. Or you're just in it. It's easy to get overwhelmed. It's easy to get in that moment. And all of a sudden you're just kind of surviving

in the conversation. So you're looking for different ways to maybe hurt somebody, to have a zinger. To defend yourself. You got it, yeah, very much so. To defend yourself. You got it. Yeah, very much so. And I remember getting in my car going, I can't do that again.

I can't do that again. And I started coming up with different phrases that I would tell myself to help align me in the moment. When he does this again, when I get defensive again, when I get triggered and he says something that I know isn't cool, but he's trying to get under my skin, how am I going to respond? You got it. You got it. And so there was this need for me being on my own.

There was no, I didn't have any other people from the firm with me of trying to prove myself. And sometimes when we had that pressure on, there's that need to over-promise, over-do, and you end up, you know, what you say, trying to look cute, you know, and you overextend yourself.

And this time I wasn't gonna do that. So I started to write things on the top of my yellow notepad that kind of just like make sure I sunk these things into my brain. I'd say, one, I was just like, just be Jefferson. Don't worry about trying to be some, you know, macho court attorney on TV that they just be, just be. And who Jefferson is, is a guy that I hear somebody

get defensive, I go, okay. You know, just like, oh, all right. And I just, I just bought off a duck's back. And so it was that first step that now all of a sudden, his snarkiness, when I got defensive, justified him getting more snarky. Oh, right. Yeah. He just ratcheted it.

Like, I got you. Every time. I mean, did it get any deeper? You got it. But me just going. Oh, right. Yeah. They just ratchet it up. It's like, I got you. Every time. I mean, they're getting even deeper. You got it. But me just going, well, okay. Like, allowing him to have his moment, it made him look worse. Right. Yeah, because now he looked like the jerk. Now

he started to lose credibility. And now the scales begin to tip. And when the other side begins to object more, it looks like they're trying to hide something more. And so I took the strategy of, here I am fighting for my client, just me, and here he is. They're the ones in the suits.

They're the ones with money. They're the ones that are objecting. What does that say? Wow, that's smart. Yeah, and so what they would do is they would have, they'd bring in their paralegals, like their team, and bring in all these boxes, and they wouldn't do it themselves.

Papers and everything else. Yeah, yeah, they had these banker boxes, Redwells, and they wouldn't do it themselves. The attorneys wouldn't, they would have their staff do it. I wasn't gonna do that. So I made sure the jury, I would keep my box in the hallway until the jury got there. And so I would have two boxes and let the jury see me

carry my two heavy boxes in and put them down myself. Wow. And so I just wanted them to always think that which one looks more credible, which one looks more authentic to their practice. Who cares about the case, yeah. Exactly. And all of a sudden,

because these jurors are just looking at us. I mean, they don't have anything else better to do in the day. I mean, they're given their civic duty. It's amazing. But when they sit in that chair, it's, and enroll people in a story of your truth. Right. It is my job to tell my client's truth, tell my client's story. And it's just an odd profession because I, Lewis, I get hired to handle other people's problems with people that I don't have a problem with. I don't have any problem with them, but I guess I do now. And then to make it worse,

the other side hires an attorney whose sole job is to make me look bad, solely just to make me lose. And you have a judge that just decides the rest. And there's, I mean, every call that you have with opposing counsel, every call that you have with opposing counsel, every time you're talking to a judge, you're having to cross-examine a witness. It is, you can see why the profession is very well suited for people that are good at dealing with communication. Because if you can't, it's not the one for you. What I'm hearing you say is now when you go into a case, you have an intention. Yes. Because if you can't, it's not the one for you. What I'm hearing you say is now when you go into a case, you have an intention. Yes.

When the worst case scenario happens, how am I going to respond? I'm going to just be Jefferson or I'm going to have these other mantras or whatever you want to call them, intentions to remind myself to lean into that. Is that what I'm hearing you say? You got it. And I translate that with my clients. So just like I do it, I have to train them and going in the hot seat. Not get defensive, not get reactive. They're going to do this. They're going to get under your skin. They're going to call you a liar. You got it. And because your case might depend

solely on how you behave. Isn't that interesting? It doesn't matter if you were actually right or wrong. It's how you behave and your energy being presented to a jury. Absolutely. And that is happening in real life, in everyday conversations, in your career, your relationships, other opportunities in life. It's how you present yourself. A thousand percent. It doesn't matter if you actually have the skills, the credibility, the credentials to get the great opportunities. It's how you present the skills, credentials, and credibilities to the person or people in front of you.

Right. And my client could have all the facts in their favor, but if they're a jerk, your case is over. Wow. It's not going to happen. It doesn't matter if you broke the law or you didn't break the law. Yeah. It's how you present your situation. Well, there's some aspect of it that an appellate court might come back and say,

oh, yeah, the law is bad. When it comes to jury trials, especially civil, criminal law is different. But on the civil side of things, they can dump your case if they just don't like you. We don't want this person to win. Yeah. Because if somebody who, here's an example. So I had a case I was on the defense of, and a lady had been hurt in an accident, and I knew very much that she acted like she was a-okay.

And that's okay, because you can be hurt in an accident and turn out to be fine later. There's nothing wrong with that. But what she had done was overextended herself by saying that the accident kept her from holding her grandkids. The accident kept her from being able to go hike and enjoy all these things. Yeah. She milked it. She milked it bad. And so when that kind of happens, what I do is just lean back like, okay, now she's saying something now she's giving me something aside from her facts that i can i can use and what she didn't even think about was she

had posted all these photos on instagram publicly of holding grandbabies they had gone on like three vacations to Hawaii. Like, all these- Hurt on top of a mountain. Exactly, exactly what it was. Next to like some like Mount Summit, okay. And that next day I come in and it's my turn to cross examine.

And I said, Ms. So-and-so, I heard you say something the other day that, well, almost broke my heart. You said that life's just not worth living. Did I read that right? And she says, yes, that's correct. Waterworks start coming up again. All right, she cried both times.

Which there's nothing wrong with crying. That's not what I'm saying, but she manufactured those very quickly. I said, there's some things I want us to look. And- Take the photos out. Mute it down to photos. Case gone.

Gone in a matter of seconds. And it was my client who caused the accident. But her case was, it should be. Oh, man. Yeah. But it was not a major accident, but the issue was once you lose your credibility, you cannot, in that sense, you cannot get it back. Wow.

And so if she had just stayed true to who she was and been honest of, no, we've been able to go on vacations and do some things, but this accident really caused me some pain back then. I I just looking for a way to try and do X, Y, and Z. But she, she got out of that. She got out of that one. Wow. That's funny, man. That's crazy. It's fun. It's fun stuff. Now, when you're thinking about questioning or examining someone, um, what is the psychology that you think about before you ask the first question to set someone up, whether they're on your team or someone you're going

against, I guess, in court, to set them up for the outcome you want to create? What's the psychology you think about in order to get the results in any conversation? So I'm going to answer that in two spots. One, if it's somebody I am against, all right, versus somebody who's with me. The one against is more fun. So I know that when I sit down and I'm going to depose a witness, meaning I'm asking them questions prior to trial, they're not going to like me. They know that. They think I'm the bad guy because they don't know.

They just know what they hear on TV. And I know right away that the person that I see is not the person that I'm talking to. What we're about to exchange in that moment is they're gonna reveal to me conflict that is just gonna be a window into the struggle that they're feeling in that moment. That there are things that they carried into that room

that they were carrying days, months, hours before they even saw me. And that is probably one of the number one keys of when you deal with these very difficult conversations is the issue they put up is rarely the real issue. It's not that. I mean, you can say something even at home, you get in an argument with a spouse or a girlfriend and you're going, where's this coming from? Well, it turns out at 8 o'clock that morning, somebody had cut them off in traffic, and they had a bad email, and there it goes.

They're just frustrated. Their mom said something, and you just happen to be the outlet. So the ability to recognize that and use that as a place to connect rather than a place to continue to flare up. How do you use that, whether it's someone personal in your life or someone that you're working with on court, when you know it's not who they are,

it's the baggage they're carrying to that conversation or the portrayal of the baggage or whatever, how do you use it to your advantage as opposed to get defensive and guarded. Yeah. Whether it's your wife, a friend, or someone in trial. Sometimes you have to take them outside

of their head. So if you and I are talking in here and say we get in an argument, we're just here in this room, we take a step outside, then you get some perspective. Right. Then you have some clarity. What do we say when we get overwhelmed?

I need some space. I need to go take a walk. It's the same way when we're having a conversation. You know, I can have, if I sense something that, in that moment, I can do one of two things. I can either react, meaning I can get defensive, or I can respond. Responding is a way that says, I'm trying to understand you. Reaction says, I have no say in it. You have the cause,

this is the effect, and that has no accountability in that responding says I'm taking full accountability for my feelings that only I can touch. Yeah. That's, that's the big difference. Wow. How do you not get triggered emotionally though in life? Like personally, if someone's coming at you or attacking you or making you wrong, how do you keep your cool and not get defensive and take things

personally? Or do you? It's very natural to take things personally. But what I say before I want to take things personally is I'll say, put it down, Jefferson. I'll say, put it down. Most of the time when we're taking something personally, we're picking something up that nobody asks us to carry. And we're just choosing to hold on to it, choosing to say, this was meant for me. And that's not always the case. And too many times we get, somebody says, why are you taking this so personally?

And they turn around, we're holding it all. Like, well, why are you holding that? I didn't ask you to hold any of that. So you get in a position to where how personal you take something is a direct reflection of how much grace you give other people. And if I start to take things too personally, oh, well, somebody's just going slow in front of me on purpose. They're showing up late because they want to show a sign to me. It's just all these different ways of treating things negatively for the most part. We take it personally when that's, you just drop it, drop that thought because you're

not giving them enough grace. When did you learn to let things go and put things down? Did you have this call about you as a kid or did something over time help you realize okay i don't need to hold on to this baggage or stress it's just been a as if it's a just blacksmith hitting on a piece of hot metal man i just my whole life has been that from really yeah from my upbringing a lot of attorneys in the family i'm the oldest four i love being the big brother that meant i didn't do a lot of mediating with siblings a lot of i mean i was the kid in the corner who just got to hear all the courtroom

stories and so they would teach you how to project and how to present and how to persuade and how to at pace and i mean it was it was awesome and how to at pace. I mean, it was, it was awesome. And that just kind of translated with what, what I like. Some people are really good at math or economics or accounting. Not me. This is, this is my thing. Sure. Sure. Yeah. I think a lot of people in today's world want to be great at winning arguments. today's world want to be great at winning arguments. What would you say if you wanted to win an argument would be the three keys to set yourself up for success? Number one would be understand that arguments aren't always meant to be worn. So there's a trap of thinking that there can only be one on top of the mountain.

And if that is true, then that's a very lonely place to be. And arguments, in my view, are an opportunity to create understanding. It's okay to have conflict. You and I can argue about something, but when it gets negative, that's when it's bad. You and I could argue of who's the best baseball team. And, you know, that's a disagreement. That ratchets up a little bit more, becomes an argument. Maybe we get a little bit more passionate. Sure. But number one is that don't get into the trap of thinking that you have to win it.

Because when you do, it's only going to breed contempt because it comes at a cost. And maybe you made fun of them. Maybe you said something that was too final, too close to the vest. So number two is know what the end goal is. Oftentimes we get into this argument and what happens, we're like 10 minutes into it and we go, how did we start this? How did we even get here? What were we arguing about in the first place? Right, right, right, right. And that meant that it wasn't real. Most of the time when that happens, it means that the true issue you were arguing about

was just a red herring. That's just the surface. So you have to know where you're going to go in the argument. So what the final outcome is. And number two, how are you going to heal it because if it's an issue of especially emotion if you don't heal it in a way that is going to continue to create that that positive understanding and interaction you will you will lose every time how to heal the argument or how to heal the disagreement

or whatever is happening between you and the other person. Right, right. Which involves taking accountability for what your behavior has done. Yeah. One of the worst ways to do that is say, well, I would have done it had you not done, right? If you say, well, I wouldn't have said this

had you not said that. No, you don't need to. Once you start tallying who did what, you're already in a losing situation. The correct response is, I'm sorry that I said this. I could have done better. And that acknowledgement of,

I shouldn't have said that. I didn't mean that. I'm going to do better. That little promise says I'm wanting to heal this rather than go kick rocks. Yeah. I'm curious. It sounds like something that,

that type of language sounds like something that would work really well in an intimate relationship, a partner, you know, in a marriage. If people spoke like that, hey, I didn't mean it like that. I'm really sorry. I'm sorry if that hurts you. Right. That's not what I really meant. Yes.

I'm sure that would help heal and mend arguments and disagreements in a beautiful, loving way. I'm curious from your experience, you've been married 11 years now, is that correct? 11, yeah. You've been doing trial law for how long? Eight. Eight years. Okay. So-

Yeah, about 10 years ago. Roughly about the same time. Yeah. What is the number one skill you bring to trial law that you aren't as good in marriage and relationships? And what is the number one thing you do well in your marriage that you wish you did better in trial law? In the first scenario of what do I do well at court that I don't do well at home? Or not as well. Yeah, not as well. Manage my emotions.

You manage your emotions really well at court. Yes, you have to. I can't be acting a fool. Right. You know what I'm saying? There's too much at stake, and as a profession, that's not a place to be doing that. Versus at home, yeah, I get mad about, I mean, all kinds of things.

Really? Yeah. I mean, we, I'm human. I mean, but of course I'm not somebody who lashes out. I'm not a big emotionally reactive person. I'm pretty much like this. Yeah. But that doesn't mean that the fifth time, my son's asked me for a popsicle, that it's, no, man, it's after bedtime.

We've already eaten one today. It's time to go to bed. I've already said no. Yeah, yeah, I've already said no. And you just, it's easy to try and get that. So dealing with those emotions, I also think a lot of that is home is a safe place to express and feel your emotions.

Right. Versus in the workplace, not so much. You may not succeed as well in your career or accelerate your career. Not in mine. Yeah, if you are. Because if you're always emotionally reactive in my profession, you're just seen as a hothead

and somebody that nobody can work with. Not credible. No, not credible. On the flip side of it, what do I do well at home that I don't do nearly as well in the workplace? Man, that's hard. I feel like what we do really well at home is sometimes have very direct, fast arguments.

My wife's also an attorney. Oh man. Yeah. You both got your case. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But our arguments are extremely efficient. I can count on one hand the amount of times they've actually been long. Really? Yeah.

It's typically pretty quick. How do you create quick arguments? How do you end arguments quickly? Quick apologies. Really? And you both apologize fast? Yes, but we will kind of package it. It's not like we have a formula or like, let's go to the book. This is what we've

developed over time is when I heard you say this, it made me think this, I didn't mean that. Okay. Well, I will next time I'll try to ask you this before I go there. I won't make an assumption. Yeah. I won't get upset right away without asking you further interrogations. Yeah. Yeah. You got it.

Oh yeah. I can't tell you how many times I'll hear like, stop cross-examining. Like she, she can pick it up immediately. I don't mean to do it. Yeah. It's just happening, but. Sure. Yeah.

Okay. She quickly shuts that down. happening, but yeah, she quickly shuts that down. What is a top strategy or technique that you've learned ethically to get what you want from people to persuade, influence, and enroll others, strangers, or people you know very well in getting something you want? You have to give them a reason to want to give it to you. And it needs to come from a place of making them happy to do so. And when it becomes a place of rather a negotiation, which makes them feel like they've lost something, you couch it and frame it in a way that feels like they've gained something.

And so if you and I are across the table in a negotiation, whatever you give, you've lost. But if I can say, you know what, Lewis? I mean, you've just been doing so well. You hit 3 million on YouTube now. I mean, your stuff's just going off the charts. You know what you could be really good at and I'd love to see is X, Y, and Z.

And all of a sudden it's like a shift of you're sitting on the same side of the table as me. And now I'm trying to help you inspire other thoughts that are also aligned with what I want. And that's a much, now you're going to say, oh, that sounds sneaky. No, it's not it's actually getting what you you need sometimes yeah in a way that is also benefiting the other person right i'd much rather that way than say i don't like you you don't like me we're just gonna have a bloodbath and have at it sure may the best guy win right right right. So just don't ask for a pay arm wrestle right now. You're going to win that one. When you go into a negotiation and you know you're about to negotiate something, what is the best intention you should have going into it so that you can create the best outcome

for you and the other person still feels like they didn't lose. So Chris Foss's book is fantastic, Never Split the Difference. And one of the things about tactical empathy is making the other person feel like you want the best for them, that you're in their camp. And you're not going to get emotionally reactive in the answer. You're already addressing the issues that you're expecting them to think of. So like he'll say, you're probably thinking that X, Y, and Z. It sounds to me like he's already kind of given these hints of what he's already picking up on. And when you say what already they are thinking in their mind, you pull it out on the table really quickly. And then, and then, and then that's it. What I will do a lot of the times is somebody gives some kind

of objection, not like an illegal sense in a courtroom, but I'll say, aside from that, aside from what you just said, anything else that I should know about? They say, no. Great. And then I'll typically give it like a two-path thing. So I will ask more questions. See, typically when I hear that, it means that they really don't want to talk to me. And that's okay if you're not ready to right now. If there's some they actually do want to talk about, they're not sure what they want to say. Is it really one or two for you? And then you'd be able to kind of delve for that.

But it's inviting them into a way that it's going to get you what you want at the end. Right, right. That's interesting. Yeah. And how do you build confidence in conversations with people that are difficult, that are smarter than you potentially, that are older than you? How do you create confidence in challenging conversations to make sure that you're on the same play field with the other person and you get the results you want in the conversation, whether it's just a conversation or a negotiation. One would be to do not let defensiveness be your first step. As soon as you take that step, you've lost. A better way to do it is let your breath be the first word that you say. So if you think of your breath as a word, it kind of changes your mind of,

okay, now I can address this. Because what we'll do is we'll hold our breath like that. And then, I mean, you know, this thing kicks in our nerves. Then comes in the adrenaline. then comes in the adrenaline, then comes in the defensiveness. You realized I haven't even breathed yet. Right. You know, and when it comes to confidence,

of course we can say, it's the way you project, it's the way you smile, it's the way you pace your conversation, keeping your voice low, keeping your words slow. It's all these kinds of things. It's the perception that I don't have to say anything more than what I need to say. Because oftentimes more words says less. You need to eliminate that. Right. Less words says more. Yeah. Every time. What's it been like over the last year? it says more. Yeah. Yeah. Every time. What's it been like over the last year? You were a trial lawyer for seven, eight years, you know, in a small town, Texas and, uh, you know, living your

life, kids married. And then all of a sudden you say, you know what, I think I'm going to share some of these things on social media, you know, essentially a year, year and a half ago. And, um, you know, the last year and a half, it's gone from a couple of videos here and there to over 5 million followers. Right. And people really coming to you for wisdom and advice. And, you know, now your business growing, the law firm growing and opportunities coming to you. Right. What has that experience done for you and your confidence and also your personal life? And do you feel more stressed or overwhelmed or a sense of pressure now that you have this larger following and people looking to you for advice? Yes, it has helped my law firm in a big

way because I don't tell people what I do, but they're interested in it. And so they go and find me. Now, sometimes I'll just get calls from people who just want to talk. Sure. Or people who will act like they're a client just so they can talk. But by and large, it's been very helpful for my business. And it's always helpful for my trials. I have several trial settings this fall. There's not a judge who hasn't seen the videos. There's not an opposing counsel who hasn't seen the videos. And so it's good and bad because it makes me very hyper aware of my interactions with them because as soon as I say one thing that's off, then I'll judge if it's not who he is,

which is just not true. But I would say, absolutely, it's built a lot more pressure. Really? Yeah. Yeah, I think it was one of the sources of when I had my first panic attack at beginning of this year because even though you have more followers, it's also very isolating in a way because I know law very well.

And when I had that, I had a lot of people at my table, so to speak. I had mentors, I had that, I had a lot of people at my table, so to speak. I had mentors. I had friends. I had other people who, I mean, other lawyers. I had my family. I had studied it. I knew I'd read all the things.

And it started out awesome. The social media thing was just going in my car for a little bit and making a video of what was off the top of my head. And now it's gotten much more serious. And with that, there's a pressure of not wanting to give bad advice. I'm certainly never going to act like I know everything. I can, of course I can give bad advice. I mean, it's inevitable. So you have that kind of feeling and it's a lot of eyes on you. So with anybody, it's kind of that imposter syndrome. Like, do I really know what I'm saying? You know, it isn't, do I really, do I really know it?

I'm just fooling everybody. Wow. And so you kind of have to battle that out of your head and go, no, no, I've done this. I've done this. Like I say done, like I've lived this, I've lived that, although this has been my life. Yes. And as long as I share my life and I'm authentic to who I am, I'm never going to be an imposter. Right. Cause you started opening up recently and did some different videos about the, you know,

kind of mental health, uh, panic attacks that you've experienced. When did you have the first panic attack? How did that make you feel and how have you been able to manage that feeling of overwhelm or, you know, panic? It was in February where all of a sudden I had a whole bunch of videos that were taken off. Videos that I had posted like two weeks prior. Going viral. You got it. Yeah, I had like four of them all in a row. And it was me going, I don't know what's happening.

Somebody at Instagram messed up. Like, you know, like the, this can't be. And as it continued to grow, then I started seeing more people with, I didn't have a blue check. All these more people with a blue check following me. And that was before you could buy it. And then I'm seeing other celebrities

and I'm going, hold up here, what's happening? And then I knew I needed to get like build a website because I didn't have a website. So I'm staying up super late, like working on some sketchy. Put something together. Yeah, just anything, anything. There's no team, it's just this guy. And it was a little after midnight,

wife, kids were asleep and Lewis, it felt like somebody had gotten that little piece of paper and just wafted it in front of my face, like a very cool, just rush. And I said out loud in the kitchen, I said, what was that? Because I was like, was this a ghost just, you know, jump over me? And just like that, it was, I just, all of a sudden I could hear it in my ears, tightness in my chest. And my whole system just started to like freak.

I was convinced. I was convinced that was a heart attack and I was dying. Holy cow. Because I knew it could not have been anxiety. Really? Why? You know what I mean? Like,

I was like, I, I stressed for breakfast. Yeah. I'm chill. I'm cool. You know what I mean? Trials I've had,

you know what I mean? Stressful situations and money on the line and all this stuff. I, I, I eat stress. We can do this. I, I was,

it was such an ignorant mindset, but at the moment i was like you thought you were having a heart attack i thought i was having a heart attack because there could be no other explanation in my mind because i don't have anxiety i don't have panic attack that's for people who don't have their life together that was the that was the very wrong mindset and what happened during that night and how did you get through it oh well I went to the ER because I thought I was dying Wow and you drag yourself to your wife driving did you call 911 I call 911 yeah they ambulance came pick you up the whole thing lights siren

thing they bring out the oh yeah I was I was shaking so badly. Like uncontrollable shaking. I didn't know. I didn't know what was going on. All I knew was like, all I could tell my wife is something is not right. Like that's all I could get out of my mouth. Something is not right. It's true.

Something was not right. My body's like, no. Your body was convulsing. Yeah, my body was like, yeah, you're not right right now. It was like shutting down. The system powered down. Yeah, all of that. Holy cow.

Yeah. 34 is the first time I've ever had that kind of experience it was very real i mean as physical and tangible as as heart pounding oh yeah yeah yeah and so sweating dizziness i couldn't tell if i was gonna throw it i like i was i was like lord anytime please because i hated the the whole thing it just felt like it was days while you're just shaking so i get down to the hospital they were my blood work by that time i'm having like what you would call i guess aftershocks like i'd be good and then i'd have another just like onset and then it'd go off yeah and then it'd go. And then I just like everything in my body, like clench up. It just, and that happened for,

I don't know, two hours. And then they just said, well, you just no heart attack. Your heart's good. Yeah. Your blood works fine.

Everything was healthy, healthy as can be. But you just, you had a, had a panic attack and I was like, excuse me, what? And like,

you had a panic attack. I was like, no, I'm sure. Yeah. I was like, I was like, are you sure you just, it's okay. I'll get a heart monitor. It's okay. Uh, I'm sure my heart had an attack. Yeah, I was like, are you sure?

Are you just, it's okay, I'll get a heart monitor. It's okay. Yeah, so that's. Panic attack. And when they said that, how did they make you feel? It made me feel very normal and messed up. It made me feel like I was, something was wrong with me. Like it made me feel like, oh no, I am,

now I'm one of them. Like now I'm somebody who can't control my thoughts. Now I'm somebody who like, now I am going. And then like the panic of the thoughts. So some of those thoughts in my mind. The panic of the panic attack. You got it, yeah. And because in that moment, yeah, I can tell myself,

of course, no, you're perfectly normal. Yes, you're supposed to have, your body is, this is all natural i could say that now in that moment it was well what's what's what's happening and as my brain is falling apart because you would have these rapid thoughts that would come these crazy thoughts that i could not stop like i'm like what thoughts oh you uh for whatever reason they would revolve around like for whatever reason death was a trigger like any thought of dying or the topic of it would just like send my whole body into a fritz and that's so bizarre coming from never in my life has this happened ever and here

i am the guy who is at at the time, is going, it was the night that my following hit a million, is when it happened. Wow, the night you hit a million. The night I hit a million. But it was the thought of, here's this guy who gives all this communication advice about, you know, blah, blah, and I'm just rippling, and I'm just melting.

I had another panic attack for the next eight days. Every day? Every day. Did you call the ER every time or no? No, no, no. You knew this was happening? Yeah, the second time was at the office, and I was like, oh, no.

I said it, I was like, oh, no. But at that point, I knew I wasn't dying, and that's a very big relief. How long did the second one last? Just as long. A couple hours? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're sitting in the office for a couple hours,

like laying down on the couch or on the floor. Breathing, I'm straight just like pulling out the office for a couple hours, like laying down on the couch or on the floor. I'm straight just like pulling out the Headspace app. I'm working on my breathing. I'm like, yeah. And the next days after that, it was the same? They got a little bit shorter, but it would happen at terrible times.

Wow, man. Yeah, it was terrible. It was a horrible time. And then I was like, man, I got to see what this is. I got to see what this is about. So I spent like a full day marked off my calendar of like, I am researching everything I want to know about this topic. Because never in my life had I been on my radar.

What'd you find out about? What'd you discover? So I discovered several things. One was part of that response that your body is going through, your body is telling you things that something is not right. Because I have a great mental game. You know, I can tell myself just about anything, like, no, I'm not nervous, I'm excited. I am very happy to be here or-

I'm prepared, I'm this, I'm that, yeah. Yeah, I have to have this mindset of calm, cool, and collected when I walk in that door. When I walk through those courtroom doors, they need to, I need to look like I've've already won i just need to show them why and and here in this mindset was me saying actually uh your body knows better than you do you can't outthink this you got it yeah yeah. Cannot outthink this. You gotta feel it and move through it.

Yeah. There's that book, I can't remember the author, Body Keeps the Score. Yeah. Incredible book. Yeah, so I ordered that book right away.

What did you learn about yourself, your body, your memories of the past that were causing this? There was a sense of, and this is gonna, it's gonna sound weird, but it was a sense of and this is gonna it's gonna sound weird but it was a sense of

immediate isolation okay i have the million on my phone between me and you it's just a digit from a number on my phone that's it no different than if i just press one on a keypad on my calculator on my phone. But that number meant much more significance. And of course there are a lot of creators that have way more than that. But for somebody who's just been in this car, who doesn't see any of these people, I'm in a small town, I'm growing law firm, I'm just doing all I can.

And then all of a sudden I felt like a lot of eyes were on me and i had nobody to help like there was nobody i couldn't if i called my best friend he'd be like yeah i mean he doesn't understand yeah yeah he's like oh that's right that's a bummer you know i i just they couldn't they couldn't i could tell hey we do what are you thinking i'm glad i reached out to you then yeah yeah good topic it really was Good timing. It really was. I'm telling you, that's why I thank you immensely because that was just to have that presence is to know that if I need to, I can call or somebody who's been through that change. And so now- There's probably only four, maybe five people that i can share everything with yeah that will actually

not judge me that will relate to it in some way that maybe has already had some type of experience like that that will you know have compassion for me where if i said these things to other people or publicly or whatever it might be, people just won't understand or wouldn't get it. And I'm not saying that- Or take it wrong. Or they might take it wrong. And I'm not saying that I have some unique experience that's greater or better than others. It's just a different unique experience from a different position of life. And it's not a better, worse than, good, bad. It's just a different perspective. That's right yeah and it's um yeah there's there's only a

few people that i can really fully just let loose with yeah but that's that's that's smart i mean that's biblical that keep your friends very close and few and that you're your true ones that love you no matter what i mean where i can say all this stuff, the messy, the nasty, the... The unfiltered. The unfiltered stuff. The hurt, the raw, yeah, all of that. And it's... Human beings need that at every stage of life. Yeah.

You know, whether you're 14 and... Right. Dealing with stuff in your mind or some weird stuff, or you're 40. Yeah. You know, we all need those people that we can have those conversations with.

Yeah, yeah. Every, at every every stage at every level if you don't have that outlet your your body's going to carry it for you absolutely until it till it can't until it's going to release in some way until it can and and that's that's what happened with me was just that that feeling of big time isolation had been there were more brands and like, you know, like people email you and call you and you need to go with this.

Want something from you. Yes, and oh, we see this and you ought to do it. And so you're going, wait, man, look, I just, I gotta get chicken nuggets in the oven right now. You know what I mean? Like, can you please? My kid's crying over here, let me just deal with this. Yeah, like I get home, it's mayhem, it's bath time.

It's, you know, you just, yeah, there's no team of anything beyond the guy in the car yet. But it was definitely that feeling of, I felt like my life was just like starting to just expand in a very surreal way that my body felt despite what my brain was telling it. What did you realize about yourself from those eight days of panic attacks that you were holding on to, that you were resisting, or that you were not ready for yet? It was a sense of, don't let them down. Like that was a- What, the number? Yeah. The number of people watching or following?

Yeah, well, because they'll comment, they message, they say incredibly nice, art-style things. I still get to read them. And they're just the kindest, kindest things that you go, I do not deserve to read what I just- Wow. Yeah, I mean, you just feel like an immediate sense of humility and- Like an imposter or something?

Not so much an imposter of a, don't let these people down because they really do depend on that advice for whatever reason. That daily message you give them. They've chosen the guy in the car, in the driver's seat. They want to hear what his thoughts are on X, Y, and Z, which I love. I truly do love it. And I hope I do it for the rest of my life. But it is in that moment, in the very first beginning of me saying,

okay, this is happening. Like this is, I guess this is happening. That was a immediate sense of settling into that expectation. I also learned that I was getting a bad habit of holding my breath when I was working or doing things. So you weren't breathing as your body was like. Yeah. I know that feeling now.

Yeah, so I was reading that part of that panic attack is the same sensation you get when your body's drowning. It's because I'm holding my breath, priving myself of oxygen, and my body is like kicking in. It's like, yeah, you got it. It needs more oxygen. You got it. And so without me just thinking in the day, I was catching myself more and more holding my breath. Or shallow breathing.

Yes. That's what I'm saying. Barely breathing. Of course I'm alive, but it's like I'm holding it more than I'm letting it out. Or shallow breathing. of like, okay, let's fix that. Right. Because once I started fixing that, much, much, much better. Yeah. There's something I've learned over the years about, and I'm curious how you approach this.

And I don't always get it right, and it doesn't always work for me, but a psychological strategy. When someone is, quote unquote, attacking me, or is saying nasty things about me that i don't believe are true or maybe it's just i don't like the way they're saying it and i don't want it to penetrate my heart and my soul yeah and be reactive and defensive and right right yeah frustrated into all these things when the when the brow goes like yeah exactly one of the psychological or therapeutic

uh strategies that i've learned is to imagine either a a field an energetic field around me that i can see it but then it bounces off okay the words the intention the energy it comes and then boink it just goes around me and right like water off and i feel like there's a star wars reference but yes yeah that's exactly right yeah or what i'll do is i will separate the ego from the self and i'll have the ego over here next to me psychologically yeah and an image of, the ego of me here. Yeah. And I'm just like, oh, they're just speaking to the ego.

Yeah, no detachment. They're just, oh, they're speaking over here. Right. They're not actually speaking to me. Yeah. They might be looking at me, but it's just,

we're redirecting right here. Right. And, oh, this doesn't affect me. Yeah, they're talking to that guy. Yeah. And I saw, I think I saw, I think it was Selma Hayek

one time talk about this. She was giving examples somewhere online about how, you know, if someone spoke to you really poorly in Spanish and you don't speak Spanish, you're not going to get defensive. Right. You're just going to be like, okay, I have no clue what this crazy person is saying to me. Um, okay. So just act like it's a different language. Right.

At least it's different ways of like separating yourself from the hurt. Yeah, I like that too. Or the potential pain. Yes. What have you learned to support yourself psychologically and emotionally and spiritually when this feeling of panic, stress comes your way or when potential attacks come your way emotionally? So very similar to yours. In my mind, I visually have a trash can next to me. Oh, okay.

All right. And I can see it. It's one of those big, huge gallon ones. It's just the black, shiny. You got it. Yeah. And I see what they're saying is just a shoot. So I can see the words coming and I'm sifting because the issue they're telling me is not the real issue. And so if I hear something that's offensive, that's not nice, I just, okay, that's trash. Let me just, I'm just, in my mind, I grab it with my right hand, lift up and throw it.

Wow. Like that's what I grab it with my right hand, lift up, and throw it. Wow. Like that's what I'll do with my thoughts. And I'm sifting to where if they might have led with something that was snarky, which our inclination is to grab onto that and send it back to it. Yeah, send it back and go, oh, I just got to get one. Instead, if I throw that one away, if I back and go, oh, I just, I got a good one coming. Instead, yeah, you got it. Instead, if I throw that one away, if I just trash it, and then I found the one word that they said at the very end,

towards the end, that was the one word. And then if I focus on that word, then it all starts to kind of crumble. But that's, I just imagined a trash can. Wow, that's i just imagine a trash can wow it's interesting now how do you not how do you communicate your worth when someone is being offensive or adding a little digs underneath their language maybe they're trying to get a message across um and they're frustrated so they're saying a few things that would be offensive to you potentially,

or maybe hurt you or maybe kind of put you beneath. Yeah. How do you create a boundary consciously with them so that they don't keep doing that in the future where it's letting them know, Hey, this, this type of communication doesn't really work for me. It's not okay. And owning your worth. Yeah.

While also being able to throw it away at the same time and not let it get to you. Like, how do you navigate that so that that doesn't continue to happen in friendships or relationships or career. Right. Where that doesn't continue. Like, I understand we can do it once or twice or three times, but if someone's always doing that to us.

Right. How do we create that boundary and consciously communicate our worth? Depending on the context of who that person is, who they are in your life. Some people you just can't get away from, I mean, or family members, what have you, but it's a balance of your value and then what we're going to just call as

what I'm interested in. So if somebody were going to say something that's offensive in a way and they are pushing me, it's a much more powerful move, a very dominant, assertive move to say I'm not interested in returning what you just gave.

Oh, wow, that's a power move. Yeah, oh yeah. So if I say jefferson you know it was pretty idiotic what you did the other day to me and i just didn't you know yeah you just looked like an idiot but i what i really want to do is as i'm moving forward i want us to go and do this thing instead right whenever i'm just yeah yeah i'm with you how would you respond to something like like that so if somebody well what you kind of did was you you like hit it into something else that they did so what i i would first do is call that out i hear two points yeah and so i'm like i'm'm not going to skip that. Okay. So you want to just throw the trash away right away.

You got it. You want to address it. Well, because they're trying to hide the trash in the good. Yeah. And so my response is, well, I see two different things. So that first point, I don't have an interest in responding to whatever, or I'm going to say, well, maybe I did look like an idiot, but I'm not going to be holding on to whatever message you're trying to send to me. But it's a much more dominant move to say, I have no interest in returning what you're sending. Right. I have no interest in calling you what I saw yesterday you do or something like that. You got it. But if you use the phrase, I have no interest.

I have no interest in talking about your opinion of my performance. Oh, interesting. You know what I mean? Like, obviously, that's not something you want to start off with because that could sound defensive. That could sound issues. But the point of it is when you say, I have no interest, you're letting them know, I don't have an interest. It's like you're saying that as you're doing the trash can thing i really don't have an interest

and you know this this kind of food it's not great for me doesn't really settle well with me but what does taste good of what you said you know about x y and z and so you kind of imagine those words as part of let's say it's kind of you know know, your diet. Sorry, I'm a little lactose intolerant. Right. So let's skip the milk and talk about something else. What are the three power moves in conversations that really set you up for success in any conversation? Number one is silence.

Just nothing. in any conversation? Number one is silence. Just nothing. So if somebody were to say something that's snarky, the best move is to say nothing. You just kind of sit back, and you look around,

and you look up, and you look off. I'm telling you, nine times out of ten, they can't take it. Really? They can't take that silence, because then it's spread out. You've just exposed,

instead of you covering it up with something else that says, excuse me, what did you say? You're just leaving it open. Can you like, that really, that the best foot you're gonna put out right now? Wow, you got one. You go, that the one we're gonna choose. And if you just let that silence sit there,

oftentimes, and you probably heard this, they go, I shouldn't have said that. You gotta give them that chance. That's number one. Yeah, number one is you gotta give them the chance of that silence. Number two, acknowledge that it could be without acknowledging that it is.

And you say- Give me an example. Of saying, well, maybe so. Maybe you're right. And I say you're right. No. But maybe you are. Maybe you're right.

But it's that piece of humility that says, yeah, well, maybe you're right. I had a guy once who said, I was deposing him and all these, all you lawyers, worst things that ever happened to America kind of talk. I said, well, maybe you're right, but today's just going to be a conversation between us.

Is it okay if you're just talking to Jefferson? And he said, yeah, I can do that. Wow. And so it's that ability to just say, well, maybe so, but I could have gotten really defensive with him. I could have chosen to have taken that defensive with them i could have i could have chosen to taken that personally instead i just dropped it uh the other power other power move is to hold off on the timing so when you are mad that's generally not the best time to do it when like when when you know you've done something wrong you want somebody to

be mad at you to like fight me please like i know i've done something wrong and you want somebody to be mad at you, to like fight me, please. Like I know I've done something wrong. Let's have this out. We'll talk about this. You want to talk about this at noon? Right. Let's talk about it.

Let's put it in the calendar for tomorrow. You got it. Okay. I'm glad you said that. Well, then, you know, I don't really have my thoughts together on that, but why don't we kind of end it to talk about that at noon tomorrow?

What do you think? Now they're like, oh my God, I just said something that I shouldn't have said. But that's a much better way of handling it. Because at that point you have not lost any confidence. Right. You have not lost your credibility. And you've maintained that you're the one in control

at all times. I'm telling you, the key is just starting with your breath and choosing to be quiet. Right. If you were to say something to me and I responded right away, like if you were to say, I don't know, do you enjoy matcha tea i go no

versus me thinking no like there's just a different connotation to it when you think about it yeah um about 14 years ago, someone gave me a line that became one of the most powerful uses of language over the last 14 years to help me get almost anything I go order a coffee, I use it. When I go to a hotel and try to get an upgrade, I use it. When I'm working with partners and collaborators, I use it. And the line is, what's the chance? What's the chance you can give me a discount on this? What's the chance you can give me an upgrade in this hotel room? What's the chance you can give me a discount on this? What's the chance you can give me an upgrade in this hotel room? What's the chance you can get me in first class?

What's the chance we can collaborate in a bigger way? What's the chance you can go a little more on this? And I've used that over and over again because it continues to work. And I almost use it as a game daily. Any store I go into, I'm just like, what's the chance you got 10 off on this yeah just to see what they say you can make something happen yeah because if you don't ask you're not going to get it right and um it's just like a way to be playful it's a way to like see can i enroll someone in something that i maybe i shouldn't be getting, but I'm going to get. Yes.

And it often works where the unexpected happens. Is there another line of communication that you use, maybe even unknowingly that you use consistently that seems to just help you enroll people in more of what you want? So I do, I absolutely use the, what's the chance? Yeah. So I will use that when it feels like a stalemate between the other attorney and, oh look, what's the chance that your client's going to be able to do X, Y, and Z. Also, X, Y, and Z. Also, I will try to separate the attorney from the client. Same way I do with the reception clerk versus the hotel. I make sure that I acknowledge them as the person because I acknowledge their struggle of what they're going through. And so if I talk to the attorney of, look, I can only imagine all the

updates you're having to do or all the work you're putting through. I know that this is how you're doing the best thing you can for your client. I mean, between me and you, what's the chance that we can do X, Y, and Z? Or if I were to do, or if I were to say, or if my client were, if I were to encourage my client to do this, is that something that I should do? And it gives them something to think about. Right. The same way, like at a, let's say at a hotel or something like that. I can only imagine you just been, how long's your shift?

Yeah. Yeah, seven hours. And I'm like, gosh, yeah, that's going to be. And so you just, yeah, you kind of create that connection with them that says, I'm talking to you individually as a person rather than seeing you as the whole. Then, because that's who they are. Yeah, exactly. That's powerful. I want to go back to the, uh, the panic attacks for a moment.

Um, does it sound like you, you really studied and researched a lot on how you could manage and, and, and have a better relationship with the anxiety or the stress that you were having for those eight days have you had more panic attacks since the moment they've gotten less and less and less less and less like five ten minutes at a time or something yeah so uh well i haven't had i probably haven't had a panic attack i've gotten very close probably the last like three weeks but what it is is like a sense of boiling water like i can feel the water boiling and then i'm and i can feel it in my body like i can feel it in my fingers of like tingly yeah yeah yeah or i'm typically never somebody to shake my leg but if all of a sudden my leg is shaking then i'm like okay something's up and that all like that'll tell me right away of all right

what are we doing what's going on be able to kind of check in with myself and and how that's been but it's it's progressed much better yeah it really has therapy helps yeah and I in the that was really the source was not feeling alone in this kind of ecosystem that I didn't ask for. Like that, this is never my goal of like, if I can only get so many followers. Yeah. It was like, uh, let's just go. I don't know. I got a few minutes.

I'll go talk to my phone. Yeah. What is the, what is the relationship been like with your wife and your kids since experiencing the rise of your audience, but also the stress and panic that you've experienced over the last six months? How has your wife shown up for you, and how has it made you relate to your family differently? to your family differently? Well, having kids, it made me much more just empathetic as a person. And I'll tell you that it is a way that we relate to each other is when I see them start to get really emotional,

I can see myself in it. My son looks a lot like me. And so I can, it's very much this kind of weird inner child, like dialogue. Wow. Like I'm telling him things that I wish I could have, I would have been told at, you know,

Hey man, it's okay to cry. Wow. Let it out. Let it out. I was never told that, but I went in, I'm not going to make that mistake.

And so my son is extremely waterworks all the time. And I love it. I mean, he's emotional in movies. I love it. And I was, and so I had to see that where I go, no, no, no. I've had that mistake of trying to put on this Jefferson's got it all together. This mask.

Yeah, yeah. Just, I got it all. I got it all together. It's, you were just let it out, man. Wow. It's all good. It's all together. This mask. Yeah. Yeah. Just, I got it all. I got it all together. It's, it's, you are just let it out, man. It's all good. It's all good. And he will, he'll just cry and say, I can't help it. And I'll say, you don't need to. You're good, man. You're good. He's, he's very, both of my kids are extremely, um, empathetic with, with movies. Um, I, I shared something before of, this was like not that long ago,

and my son says, how your day was, Dad? It was good, buddy, it was good. And he was like, what'd you do? I was like, well, it was just good. It was a good day, it was fine. Truthfully, it was not good. Like it was a really horrible, it was a rough day. It was a good day. It was fine. Truthfully, it was not good. It was a really horrible, it was a rough day. It was a rough day.

I was tired. And later on that evening, he came up to me again. He said, so why did you tell me your day was good when it wasn't? Wow. I said, what? He said, you said it was good, but you didn't say it like it was good.

I was like, how did you know? He's like, you said it like it wasn't good. You said it like it was bad. was like how did you how did you know he's like you said it like it wasn't good you said it like it was bad i feel everything yes and i was like how are you this young and like he had already sensed it like he told me he was good he wasn't wow and so that that kind of aspect of it when you say how's my wife showing up for me she's allowed me to have the time to kind of explore, Hey, you need to make sure you're taking care of yourself. And she's awesome at supporting anything that I'm after. And we support both of our careers. She has a full-time career as her doing her thing in, in, in school and school law and I have my, my legal career. And in terms of the social media stuff, it doesn't affect anything.

Like you could call it Finstagram. Like nobody at my house, it doesn't exist at my house. It's just your dad, mom, kids, mayhem. Right. That's all it is. Now she's very supportive of it and they know that every once in a while, dad will make a video.

Sure. So because they want to make videos i'm curious with your upbringing which sounds like you had a great upbringing but also things that maybe you wish you would have had or experienced in certain ways from parents or life and with what you're experiencing now from you know building your career getting married at a young age in today's society, and now having this kind of following and presence. What are three lessons, if you could only teach three lessons to your kids right now, what would those three lessons be

that you wish you would have known growing up or that you did know and you want them to know? One would be always be authentic to who you are personally. Don't ever try to be anybody else than who you are. I can tell you that anytime I felt like I've needed to be somebody else, it was the wrong call. Every time that I tried to be either more or less than just exactly who I am. You know, I see it as just a floor in an elevator. Doesn't mean it's a better floor or not. It's just, you need to be exactly where you're meant to be. Sure.

Two is, it's okay to feel like there are, it's okay to make mistakes. I grew up in a house where it was very, it was a lot of, I'll admit, let's put on myself, expectations of being the best at everything you could be at whatever it was. I just enjoyed it. But the understanding that they don't have to put that pressure on themselves. And number three is be kind to everybody. Kindness, kindness never, it never changes. People value it now.

They always, they always have. We could talk for hours, man, but I want to wrap things up here in a few minutes. Jefferson underscore Fisher on Instagram. Yeah. All over social media, you can find you. I'll have everything linked up there. Oh, cool. Thanks.

You've got a book you're working on that we'll probably have you back on in the future when that comes out. But I want people to follow you on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, all the places. Hopefully, we'll get you on YouTube soon. Yeah. And you do a daily video, man. I mean, almost every day it seems like. It's like every day you're given wisdom, you're given inspiration from daily lessons in law

and your experience in life. Right. It's really inspiring to see you create from a place of generosity, from a place of service. So I want to acknowledge you for the consistency. And I also want to acknowledge you for opening up about the panics that you've experienced. Yeah, that was hard. And being vulnerable with your community and saying, hey, listen, guys, this is something

I've never experienced. And I love having this community, but also I feel this sense of pressure and this overwhelm that I've never experienced in my life. And I think it's powerful to be talking about it because what we keep hidden and we hide continues to manifest and hurt us and stress us. So the fact that you're talking about it is probably allowing you to release some. It really is. And relax some. Yeah. I'm not saying it's going to solve every issue you have mentally or emotionally, but it's allowing you to set yourself free.

but it's allowing you to set yourself free. So I acknowledge you for not having it all put together, not saying the perfect thing every time, and allowing yourself to express how you feel, which sounds like is what your body needs. Yeah, thank you very much. That's very well put. I acknowledge you, man, for doing the work and for continually doing it because healing is a journey.

Yeah, very much. And so I'm glad you're on that journey. I'd feel free to reach out anytime you want some support or just absolutely no it's meant so much that you've that you've been here but for sure that means a lot to me for sure man this is a question i ask everyone towards the end called the three truths so imagine you get to live as long as you want but it's your last day on earth you get to accomplish all the dreams and experiences you want to have but for whatever reason all of your material your content your videos the books you make all these things they have to go to the next place with you or they're no longer in this world yeah this conversation is gone but it's your last day on

earth and you get to leave behind three truths three lessons you would share with the world and this is all we have to remember your wisdom by what would be those three truths, three lessons you would share with the world. And this is all we have to remember your wisdom by. What would be those three truths or lessons for you? Number one is the best piece of advice I received from my grandfather, who was an old East Texas attorney. He said, boy, you can't look back and plan a straight row. That's always stuck with me. Meaning encouraging people to be in the moment, in the present. If you look at what you're doing rather than looking for the next worry, your head's always going to be in the right place.

Number two is you treat people however you want to be treated. It's that very basic golden rule that we've all heard, but sometimes it's the things we've heard the most that we really have soaked up the least and too many times that we skip over it. And number three would be that at any time that you can, show person kindness because you'll never regret it. There's so many things that I feel like generationally in our existence

that we just got wrong. It wasn't our fault. We just weren't ready. We thought medicine was something different versus what we think medicine is now, or you look at how we handle punishment or entertainment versus now. You look at how we handle punishment or entertainment versus now, but kindness is not affected from inflation or recession. It doesn't depreciate. A little kindness can be invaluable.

I love it. That was a great truce, man. Final question, Jefferson. What's your definition of greatness? Greatness is being able to show up for who you are in every level and every stage that you're meant to be in a way that spreads joy to everybody that you touch. I hope today's episode inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a rundown of today's show with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me, as well as ad-free listening experience, make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel on Apple Podcast. If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend over on social media or

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over at greatness.com slash newsletter. And if no one has told you today, I wanna remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.