The School of Greatness - Relationship Scientist REVEALS The 3 CLEAR SIGNS They’ll CHEAT (Don’t Miss THIS RED FLAG!) | Macken Murphy

Episode Date: March 13, 2024

Welcome back to the School of Greatness. Today we welcome the inspiring Macken Murphy. Macken isn't just a behavior scientist; he's a master at decoding the little things we do and say that reveal a lot about our relationships and what we're really looking for in love and life. Whether you're single, dating, or just love understanding more about the people around you, Macken's insights are going to open your eyes to the complex world of human attraction. Now let the class begin!In this episode you will learnThe underlying reasons behind cheating and the differences in infidelity between genders.The concept of 'young male syndrome' and its effects on society.The signs that may indicate a partner is likely to cheat.The role of jealousy in relationships and whether it signifies love or toxicity.How to navigate a relationship with someone who has been a victim of infidelity.For more information go to www.lewishowes.com/1587For more Greatness text PODCAST to [phone]More SOG episodes on love, relationships and dating we think you’ll love:Sadia Khan – https://link.chtbl.com/1491-podMichael Todd – https://link.chtbl.com/1508-podEsther Perel – https://link.chtbl.com/1546-pod

Welcome back to The School of Greatness, one of the top-ranked podcasts in the world. Today, we welcome the inspiring Macken Murphy. And Macken isn't just a behavior scientist, he's a master at decoding the little things we do and say that reveal a lot about our relationships and what we're really looking for in love and life. Whether you're single, dating, or just love understanding more about the people around you, Macken's insights today are going to open your eyes to the complex world of human attraction. I'm so excited for you to dive in, so let the class begin. I spent a couple years at Oxford studying infidelity. Narcissism is associated with

infidelity. Plenty of people find sexual narcissism sexy, right? So that's someone who believes that they're the best lover ever and is, you know, totally confident in bed, that also predicts infidelity. Macken Murphy isn't just a behavior scientist, he's a master at decoding the little things we do and say that reveal a lot about our relationships and what we're really looking for in love and life.

Macken's insights are going to open your eyes to the complex world of human attraction. The symptoms of PTSD are so common among people who have been cheated on that some psychologists have coined the term and used the term PISD, post-infidelity stress disorder. What is the research that stands out to you the most around love relationships and intimacy in a modern world? The research on what we know impacts success in romantic relationships. So there are very simple things that you can do to improve your romantic connection with someone.

What would you say are the three clear signs that a man may cheat on his partner that he's committed to? I don't even know if I should share this, but... Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness. I am very excited about our guest. We have the inspiring Macken Murphy in the house. Good to see you. I don't know about inspiring, but thank you. Very excited because I wouldn't say I discovered you, but I found your content before a lot of people knew about you.

And I still don't think really many people know about you yet. So I want to introduce you from what I saw online. Now, Macken Murphy isn't just a behavior scientist. He's a master at decoding the little things we do and say that reveal a lot about our relationships and what we're really looking for in love and life. So whether you're single, dating, or you're just love understanding more about people around you, Macken's insights are going to open your eyes to the complex world of human attraction. And you're a scientist, you're a researcher, and you've studied a lot of different things around animal mating theory and history of animal mating, but also human mating. And your

content on TikTok is what, how I found you. And what made me really interested about the depth of research that you dive into and study on the science of love and relationships. We were just talking about this before about a few different key things that people are interested in a lot these days. Infidelity, cheating, why people cheat, why it's important for men and women to try to become more beautiful, jealousy, insecurity, all these different things that people are struggling with or trying to understand about themselves and others. And so I'm excited to dive into this. The first thing I want to talk about is infidelity and cheating. Why do you think people are cheaters or cheat at one point?

What is the main cause of cheating that you've seen? And do men cheat more than women? Okay. Well, that's a very complicated question. I'll say up front that infidelity in the animal literature is just called extra pair copulation, right? This is, you have your in-pair mate, the primary partner, and there are many people think monogamy is, you know, this kind of unnatural social construct. That's an idea I run up against quite a bit, but monogamy, there are plenty of monogamous animals. I would say that we are a serially monogamous species of ape. That's a slightly controversial thing to say, but we're serially socially

monogamous. Infidelity, extra pair copulation, right? The propensity to have sexual intercourse with people who are not your mate, right? The inclination towards that. That's also part of our evolutionary story. Now you asked about why people cheat and whether men cheat more than women. Whether men cheat more than women, I'll start on that because that's, I mean, it's a controversial thing to say on the internet. It would be a controversial thing to write on a blog, but in a human mating behavior lab, right, somewhere that actually studies infidelity, this would be one of the most banal things you could ever say, which is that men do cheat more than women, right? Now, I'm not saying that nobody disagrees with this. I'm not saying that there aren't some researchers who say,

you know, maybe there's more evenness here, or maybe women actually cheat more. And maybe in some subpopulations, right, in circumspect sociocologies, and in some age groups, maybe infidelity rates vary. But what do we see? Well, we see that in general, right? Women report getting women, heterosexual women report getting cheated on more than heterosexual men, right? So they say, so you ask people, have you ever been cheated on? Women are more likely to say they have been. And then when you ask people, have you ever cheated? Men tend to say, yeah, I, you know, more, right? So men admit to cheating more on these anonymous surveys, right? And you can say, well, survey data, self-report, maybe women are more likely to lie, right? But then that's a bit of a silly thing to say because the research that we have on lying indicates that men are more

duplicitous, right? Men lie more. I'm not saying it's a big sex difference, but anytime someone's tried to look into that that I'm aware of, it's tended to say, okay, men seem more apt towards lying. And then finally, the final piece of evidence on this, right, when we're saying, how do we know that men cheat more, is when you look at mate poachers, right? So this is the other person in the scenario, right? The third party. Yes, the interloper. When you ask men and women, you know, have you ask men and women, have you attempted mate poaching? Have you succeeded for short-term mating, uncommitted mating? So there's two types of mate poaching. There's this infidelity that we're talking about. And then there's the second type, which is also infidelity, but you're starting a new relationship. It seems to be, at least in western samples right and this is a less studied fact

that women who mate poach have higher success so when you take all those findings together so women who are single and wants to if they want to take your boyfriend they'll have for a night they'll have more success than men who want to take your girlfriend why is that average well that that's a great segue because we can now talk about, so those are the reasons to think that men cheat more than women. And why is that, right? Why do men cheat more than women? I mean, I'm somewhat agnostic on the idea that it's still possible that men cheat more, but one theoretical thing to consider, right? If new research came out that showed women cheat more, I'd be open to accepting it. I'm not emotionally committed to any ideas. But one of the theoretical reasons to expect men to cheat more is that male mammals, right? Humans are mammals. Male mammals have a very powerful benefit from infidelity that female animals can't have at least in the same way, right? And I'm realizing just when I'm speaking that I don't think infidelity is a good thing to do, right? I don't think cheating is a good thing to do. A lot of people, they might clip things I'm saying and

take it out of context. And when I'm saying that infidelity is natural, it's evolved, a lot of people are saying that it's inevitable or think that I'm saying that it's inevitable. It's not, right? Plenty of people, probably most people don't cheat or that it's good, right? But there are plenty of natural things that are bad, right? Like I also believe that under, in very niche circumstances, we have psychological adaptations to homicide, right? Killing people. I don't think that murder is okay, but I recognize that mammals sometimes kill each other, right? And that there are sometimes fitness benefits to engaging in such a risky activity.

Don't please nobody clip me and say that I think homicide's okay. So going back to the topic, right? Why do men cheat more? One of the theoretical considerations that's worth bringing on board is the fact that male mammals, when they have multiple partners, can increase the number of offspring that they have, right? So for male mammals, to an extent, quantity has more benefits relative to female mammals, right? And, you know, obviously, you know, gender and sex, these are complicated things that interface in complicated ways. But for the most part, men are male mammals, right? In general, most men would be male mammals, right? And most women would be female mammals,

right? And so men have this benefit to multiple mating that women generally don't have, which is that they can have multiple offspring. And this was in our ancestry. So I'm an evolutionary behavioral scientist, right? I'm interested in the evolution of human behavior. And so I'm an evolutionary behavioral scientist, right? I'm interested in the evolution of human behavior. And so I'm looking at how did this behavior benefit our ancestors? So obviously in a contraception context, having an affair isn't going to get you more offspring. But because male mammals can have multiple mates pregnant at one time, whereas female mammals can only be pregnant by one mate at a time,

male mammals can expand their progeny by expanding the number of mates they have. But that doesn't work in a modern society. Not necessarily. It could. I mean, sometimes that still happens, right? Children are born out of affairs, right? That's still how... I won't name any celebrity names. I shouldn't say it doesn't work. It doesn't socially acceptable. No, certainly not. And I'm not sure it ever was. And it doesn't bring harmony in a relationship when that's happening. Yeah. I'm not saying that that's a good, again, I'm not saying it's a good thing to do. But I also want to note that, so that presence

of that powerful benefit could be part of the reason why men cheat more, right? Is that they have this additional benefit to infidelity that women don't necessarily have. But there are other reasons. I don't want to oversimplify it. I think a lot of people would hear that and they would say, well, let's take that to the bank. Why do men cheat? They cheat because their male ancestors who had affairs had more offspring than their male ancestors who didn't have affairs. Not exactly right, right? many purposes for an animal, right? And in humans, it's quite complicated because we also have these complex social structures, right? So yes, some people who cheat are driven by a desire for sexual variety that probably in males helped increase progeny, but other individuals, right? There are individual men who cheat, for example, to mate switch, right? To obtain a different mate. So they're with one woman and they want to be with a different woman.

And the infidelity is the way that they facilitate that. And that's true of women as well. Why not just break up first? David Buss has a funny quote on this. He said, why would you quit your job before looking for a new one? Why would you dump your partner before seeing what else is out there? You have some security, you have some familiarity, you have income, you have value from the exchange. So mate switching is another reason women and men both mate switch, right?

And some scientists think that the main reason women cheat is to mate switch. I won't weigh in on that, but that's one viewpoint. What is the research saying on why women cheat? Okay.

Well, again, it's similar to men where we have these many functions, right? So women and men both cheat to mate switch to an extent. Women and men both cheat to frankly get revenge on their partners for infidelity, right? And there's some published research that indicates that women might be more likely to cheat for revenge. And it's an open debate as to whether that's a genuine psychological tendency or whether it's just that they get cheated on more. And so they have more opportunities to actually pursue that strategy. Sure. Women in some societies, such as the, among the Himba of Namibia, right? This is an agro-pastoralist group. They have incredible rates of infidelity, much

higher than we see in the West, incredibly high rates of women's infidelity, female infidelity. much higher than we see in the West, incredibly high rates of women's infidelity, female infidelity. And the main reason, based on a few studies from Brooke Shelza and Sean Prowl, who are brilliant scientists, and I've spoken to them before, and they were both a pleasure to speak to, their work indicates that in that socio-ecological setting, the primary reason that women cheat is to obtain multiple investors, right? Now, we see women cheat for multiple investors in the West as well, but it looks a little different, right? This would be the case where the woman is dating one guy, right? And he's provisioning benefits to her in various ways. But then she's also got maybe,

and this isn't a common thing, but maybe she's got kind of a sugar daddy type relationship on the side as well. And it's like, boyfriends do lots of good things for you. And so if you have multiple boyfriends, you can have more of those good things, right? And that seems to be a primary motivation among the Himba where, you know, it's a somewhat resource scarce situation. And so one of the benefits that women accrue through infidelity is they obtain multiple partners who are putting resources towards them. More resources, more safety, more resources, more opportunities. More everything, right? So that's one reason that women cheat and maybe to an extent men as well.

I don't know how common that strategy is in the West, but it's certainly, again, it's important to understand it. It's certainly common there. So there's tons of reasons. And then another one, and this is the last one that I think I'll mention unless you want more, because there really are many strategies. The last potential reason that women have affairs, right, is to couple the, let's say, the indirect benefits of one partner with the direct benefits of another, right? So indirect

benefits are, some people call them conceptive benefits or genetic benefits, right? This is, you can have an affair, and this is something that we see in other animals. You can have an affair with a male who maybe has, you know, who's maybe healthier, right? Something like that. And then your offspring will be healthier. And then you can raise those children surreptitiously with the boyfriend, who maybe is a better investor, right? But that's not particularly common. It's, you know, in Western pop, I don't want anyone to, it's not particularly common for this to actually, I'm not saying that it's not, it doesn't have a profound influence on our modern psychology, right? The roots of this behavior. I would say that, that to an extent it does, right? And then there's, there's various pieces of evidence for that.

But in terms of the actual execution of that strategy, very low frequency, generally like, like, I mean, on the internet, you hear all this nonsense about people saying, oh, the extra pair paternity rate, right? The rate of you are not the father is like 30%. And I'm like, no, it's not. It's not. It's not. And nobody, please, nobody clip this. They say it's 30% because they go to paternity clinics where men who are already suspicious are looking to find out- From those people. From those people. And it's like, okay, that's like going to, that's like going to an auto shop to try and determine the rate of car crashes. If you look at general population studies,

right. Studies where the, where it's not self-selected in this incredibly biased way, you see rates more like 3% would be high. Yeah. 2% would be more normal. Sure. And, you know, generally if you ask a scientist who studies paternity, they'd say in Western samples, 1% to 2%. But in some groups, it's very high. Like among the Himba, right? Again, from Namibia, it's like 50-50. Yeah, it's 48%.

Oh my goodness. Yeah, but it's not a you-don't-know situation. But isn't that become- There's a strange cultural context. It's worth noting. It's not a you-don't-know situation. Yeah, isn't it more a you don't know situation. But isn't that become... There's a strange cultural context. It's worth noting. It's not a you don't know situation. Yeah, isn't it more about... They do know.

Isn't it more about like being raised by a tribe and the more men that are involved with a woman, the more likelihood they'll help take care of the child as well? Yeah, kind of. That's actually, that's about right. And it's not the same setting. I mean, in the West, there's a debate as to whether it's even analogous because in the West, there's a debate as to whether it's even analogous.

Because in the West, when a man finds out, oh my God, my wife slept with someone else and I'm raising that guy's kid, that's the end of the relationship pretty consistently. That's a disaster. But among this group, it's like, yeah, I know that's not my kid. But I'm going to raise him because he's right down the street or he's in the tribe or he's in the community or whatever. It's just a different, this's in the community or whatever. multiple investors, and that it's complex because there's, and this is going to be very foreign to people in a Western context, but there's status to be obtained from being a good parent to your wife's affair partner's children, right? And then there's also some complexity in the sense that

maybe when these men were younger, they were the affair partner to, and as they age, they're getting some of that benefit back, right? So they were on the other side of it. So they've played both sides of the field. They understand the game to an extent. I'm curious in the Western society and world, what's the science or the research on monogamy relationships versus polyamory relationships and which ones are more beneficial and which ones have more harmony, peace and true love versus which ones causes more beneficial and which ones have more harmony, peace, and true love versus which ones causes more stress and destruction. Is there any science that shows polyamory is actually healthy, creates harmony, abundance with having multiple partners, each partner having multiple

partners? What's the science of that? Well, you could say, given the fact that I spent a couple of years at Oxford studying infidelity, you could say that I have some expertise on informal polyamory, but formal, what you're describing, formal polyamory. Like where they're both in on it. They're like, hey, we each have three partners. That's not really infidelity because they're faithful to the rules of their relationship it's just that their rules are different but but but based on research has that worked oh well people in long-term relationships so what i was what i was getting to is that that is just not my area of expertise and other academics you know i i really don't

want to plant a flag here because a lot of other academics will speak on subjects that they haven't. No, not other academics. That's actually not even the word I'm trying to use. A lot of people, you know, on the Internet, right, not necessarily academics, will speak as if they're an expert on everything. Whereas in academia, right, if you haven't spent at least a year on a topic, you really know very little about it, right? It's not a quick process to learn about a subject deeply. Now, if you know about a lot of related subjects, maybe you can get yourself up to speed quickly. Is there any research that you've come about, whether you're the expert or not on it,

in that category of polyamory versus monogamy? From a societal perspective, whether you're the expert or not on it, in that category of polyamory versus monogamy? From a societal perspective, when you're comparing groups, it does seem that monogamy comes with tremendous social benefits, right? It comes with economic benefits. It seems to come with social stability benefits, reduced violence, right? I mean, monogamy is a game where it's a table where everyone can potentially get a seat because it's one to one pairing. Right. If you start mixing and matching, it's it seems that what the end result of opening the door to that is that there's that you get single men who are excluded from the mating market. And those men. I'm not and I have no political opinions on this. Just to be clear, a lot of people sometimes hear facts and interpret them as advocating for position. I'm just saying that it is the case that if you have tons of single men in an environment who have no romantic prospects, they're going to, they're going to, they, they have nothing to lose, right? They don't have as

much of a stake in society. And they also have all this incentive to compete. Cause it's like, well, I've lost the game anyway. It's kind of like, you know, in boxing, let's say where it's like, you're already down on the scorecards and now it's like, well, I'm going to lose anyway. Let me just throw some Hail Marys, right? You become more violent because it's like, I can take these risks. Right. And we see that in these young single men, I mean, some people call it young male syndrome in my field, right? It's like they cause so much trouble. Really? If they're not in a kind of monogamous relationship or committed relationship? That's certainly the theory. And in these, some of the work by Joe Henrich is pretty interesting on this. He's, he's,

I believe he actually testified in some Canadian thing. He's a, he's a professor at Harvard in any case. And he's, he's done some of the work looking at the kind of societal effects of monogamy and interesting, you know, he's not again, just like me, he would be in the business of what is rather than what should be. Right. But he has observed it's like, monogamy seems to be pretty good for the goose and the gander. Right. For everyone. For society.

For society. It also seems to be good for the people involved in it. But one note that I will make is that you might be able to run a study on people in polyamorous relationships and show that they're happier. Right? Maybe. You might be able to. You might be able to, I'm not saying that I know of that result,

but that, that, those sorts of results mislead people like, um, you really enjoyed, um, doing football. Right. And if I showed you, I assume, and if I showed you a study that showed that people who play football are less happy, right? It's like, well, or sorry, people who don't play football are happier, right? You'd be like, well, they, that doesn't mean that me being forced to quit football or quitting it will make me happier as an individual, right? It's like both people have selected themselves into those populations, right? A better example might be skydiving, right? It's like, you might find out that people who skydive are much happier than the general population. And then it's like, Oh, we should implement skydiving and everyone should

skydive. And it's like, no, they chose to do that. So they enjoy it. So it could be the same with polyamory. So I, so I don't know if in terms of, so you were asking a question about like, what's better. And it's like, it may be the case that polyamory is better for some people. Monogamy is better for others. That would be my guess. But it sounds like from where your observation observation that tentatively, yeah. From a social that- Yeah, tentatively. Yeah, from a social perspective, I will tentatively say that it's probably better for us to pair up and hang out instead of just viciously competing sexually into our 30s and 40s. Right. What would you say are the three clear signs that a man may cheat on his

partner that he's committed to? There are no clear signs in the sense that, well, I mean, if you catch them cheating, that's pretty clear. But someone might have the potential that they might. So you're looking for red flags. Yes. What are those red flags that a man may cheat on you? Well, a lot of these are quite depressing, but one of them is just family history. So infidelity runs in families. There is evidence that it is partially under the influence of genetics, like most behaviors, right? That shouldn't be, you know, a lot of people get up in arms about that, but genes code for proteins and regulatory molecules and those proteins and regulatory molecules make up and run your brain, right? So it's not surprising that genes have some impact on behavior,

and it seems that it has some impact on a person's individual likelihood of pursuing infidelity, right? So I'm not saying that you should be punitive about this, but in terms of just red flags, it's like, and plenty of people whose dads cheat don't cheat themselves. But it's like, if you know a guy's dad cheated, it's like, well, he's more likely to himself, probably. Interesting. More likely than someone whose dad was the epitome of faithfulness. And I don't think that that's going to be partially social. It's going to be partially biological. And a lot of people take that as a very controversial thing to say, but the data supports it. So it's really like, okay, if you've found out that their father cheated, ask them questions about what they think about that.

Ask them questions about... It's just a risk factor. Yeah, it's a risk factor. It doesn't mean it's going to happen. It doesn't mean it's going to happen. In the same way that you might, if you found out that a person's father had schizophrenia, right? They suffered from schizophrenia. You wouldn't say, oh, they're definitely going to be schizophrenic. Sure. You would just say, okay, all else being equal, if I know nothing else about two people and one of them has a family history and one of them doesn't. Watch out for this. Yeah.

Yeah. That's that. Maybe they're right. So the family history is the first red flag. Second one. Past, frankly, just what, what is their normal, what, what are their, what are their actual sexual inclinations? So we see there's this concept in psychology known as sociosexuality, which is essentially a person's propensity to engage in uncommitted mating. And if someone really enjoys sleeping with people who they just met and loves to have one night stands and things like that, and doesn't want to or need to be in love in order to have a passionate sexual relationship with somebody, those sorts of people who really love that sort of stuff

are going to be more inclined towards unfaithfulness than people who don't. And you might think, oh, that's kind of peculiar, but it's really not when you think about the fact that most infidelity is to some degree uncommitted mating. And so you're asking like, hey, do you like other forms of uncommitted mating? And if they do, I'd say that they're more likely. And both of these factors that I've mentioned, we're talking about men, but both of these apply to- For women as well. To women as well.

Red flags for women that they might cheat. Well, just in the sense that if you're dating two people, men or women, right? And I really want to emphasize that because a lot of people make this point, but they only talk about women. And it's clear that they're just trying to score points in some weird gender war that I don't relate to at all. It's just embarrassing to me to watch it. But it is true that if you're someone who is sociosexually unrestricted, let's say, you're probably more interested in sleeping with people other than your wife,

husband, girlfriend, boyfriend. And I guess that goes into like the whole body count issue, like people talking about body count and how does that play into if someone has a higher rate of sexual intimacy with people that are not committed to their body count, whether they're committed or not committed, are they more likely to cheat if they're with me? Well, yeah. Well, let's talk about it in the most nuanced way possible, because it probably is a proxy based on the information that I'm aware of, right? There is some data on this. Some people have run these studies. And I would say that there probably is an association there. I actually think that it would be overly cautious to say there's not an association there. Interesting.

Think about the context, right? If you meet one guy and he's 19 and has slept with 10 strangers in his first semester at college, right? Versus you meet a 30-year-old man who has had a few one-night stands and several relationships that didn't work out like that's still a body count of 10 that's context but those are very different people like if you're asking me like i wouldn't say that there's any particular reason to be worried that that man is going to have an affair right but if the 19 year old i'm like this guy's kind of out of control right right he's so so it's really i would say that body count and maybe i'm wrong about this but i would say that body count, and maybe I'm wrong about this, but I would suspect that body count predicts infidelity in as much as body count correlates with sociosexuality, if I had to guess. And why is it so looked down upon when women, younger women, sleep with a lot of men versus younger men sleeping with a lot of women?

It's an interesting question. sleep with a lot of men versus younger men sleeping with a lot of women. It's an interesting question. And is there any science or research that shows how it can harm one of the other genders more or less? Well, I'll talk about that because a lot of guys say, oh, and this is just wishful thinking. It's kind of a little bit of coping and seething. It's people saying like, oh, men can do whatever they want sexually

and it doesn't mean anything, but women have to, you know, be chaste and pure. And it's like almost every study that I'm aware of that shows a negative association between promiscuity and relationship outcomes shows the same results in men, right? I'm not saying that there's no studies that show one gender or the other, but in general, if you have, if you look at a set of married people and try to find like, oh, does body count predict marital satisfaction or, you know, or infidelity, right? Generally, it's like, oh, the effect is found in women and men. So why is it more stigmatized in women versus men in the American West? You know, in America and in the West more generally, I'd say.

Kind of an interesting question. And then there are other cultures where it's also stigmatized more on one gender versus the other. And generally it is, the stigma does lean towards women. And it's a complicated question. I don't think I'm the right person to answer it because I don't know. But I will note that it's not because it only matters as an indicator for one gender. That's just not true. Gotcha. Okay. It could also, to be frank, it could also be that in these societies, because just as a note,

a lot of people think that only men care about this stuff. But when you do surveys and you ask questions like, what's the ideal body count? So I think Steve Stewart-Williams did a study on this. And you find that both men and women care about it. They both care to an extent. What is the ideal body count? It's a moderate number generally, not zero. And this is in Western samples. But in their studies and also I think Alexander from Date Psychology tried to validate this with his Twitter followers. But the Stuart Williams study, I believe it was UK and US. It might just be UK, I'm not sure. But similar results all around. About average, right? So somewhere in the realm of-

What's average? Somewhere between a few and several is generally what we see in these statistics. Three to seven. Yeah, a few to several, sure. A few to several. Yeah, so it's under 10, more than one. Yeah, people seem to discriminate against, and I'm not saying, you know, obviously there are some people who, you know, fetishize virginity and are very attracted to it. But in general, it seems that men and women are a bit put off by inexperience and really put off by too much

experience. So it's like if you, and women discriminate more harshly against inexperience than men, right? And they both discriminate quite harshly against too much experience. Over experience. So the graph, if I were to graph, and by the way, I don't think that anyone should be, you know, counting the number of people they sleep with so that that way they hit the optimal number, right? This might help people lie more effectively about how many people they've slept with. But if you were to graph, you know, optimal body count, right. In terms of the average person's interests, it would look something like a wave, right. Where it's like, it starts off like not a huge, you'll be a virgin, but not ideal. And then it's like, oh, a few.

Now we're talking about a normal, healthy, functioning adult. Someone who's not a loser, but someone who is. Yeah, yeah, and someone who has sex. Right, right. Just my type, right? Exactly. I think that's what people are thinking. It's like they don't want someone who's a complete prude.

They want someone who has a full sex drive. Some knowledge. Some knowledge, right. But then after you get past several, then it's a wave crashing on the shore. It really does. People are put off by it. So to say that women care too,

I guess it would be interesting. It's like, well, in most of these cultures where women's sexuality is more strictly controlled than men's and more harshly stigmatized are cultures where men have all the power, right. And so maybe if women had all the power, they would start becoming very sexually controlling and neurotic about male sexuality. I'm not sure that they would. I'm not convinced that they would, but we can't run the experiment. There's no way of testing that in a lab that I know of. I mean, maybe some clever researcher is listening and thinking, oh, I've got an idea.

But it's clear that women care too. And to and seemingly to a similar degree, similar ish anyway. And so it's possible that the reason that we see the stigma is just about who has the power. But again, there are I mean, we cautious here and say that there are probably experts on chastity and purity in these concepts who have very fleshed out ideas as to why it's men who are doing this, you know, kind of stigmatizing. But that would be based on my knowledge. That would be my hypothesis. What's your thoughts on jealousy? Do you feel like jealousy and insecurity is a sign that someone loves you?

Or is it a toxic, unhealthy trait? A lot of people do, and this isn't, you know, laboratory studies. This is just living a human life. A lot of people do seem to find some degree of jealousy sexy, right? But jealousy is also just because it's like, oh, this person really cares about me. Like they really care what I'm doing. Do they really care about you or are they more insecure about themselves? My feelings on jealousy is that it's a naturally evolved human emotion, right? It's one of the many pieces of evidence that we are a, let's say a serially monogamous ape. And I'm not alone in thinking that by the way, you know, Helen Fisher wrote a very good book on this. And there are

plenty of academics who agree with me. I also know that there are plenty of academics who disagree and think, I saw you had sex at Dawn in the lobby. So there are plenty of academics who agree with me. I also know that there are plenty of academics who disagree and think, I saw you had sex at dawn in the lobby. So there are plenty of people who disagree with this, but humans have a evolved psychological adaptation to feel jealous when they see threats to their partner's fidelity, right? So it's like, if you see a super hot guy talking to your fiance, then I'd be like- Would it be a protective or something? Yeah, you're like, no, this isn't- I mean, you seem like a totally secure guy, but you might be sitting there thinking, this isn't ideal, right? Right, right. And same for her.

You go to an event and a bunch of girls want your autograph or whatever. She might be- and she seems like a very secure person as well, but she might internally be like, this is not the ideal situation, right? person as well, but she might be internally be like, this is not the ideal situation, right? And that is a evolved psychological adaptation to, in your case, protect paternity and in her case, protect investment. So if a lot of people don't understand the evolutionary psychology of men's jealousy is very clear. It's a clear story. If someone else is sleeping with your girlfriend, you might end up raising a kid that's not yours, right? So that's a pretty clear narrative. So you want to protect that. Yeah. It's like, oh, I don't want that to happen. So jealousy is natural on the woman's side. Right. There's no chance that her in, in, in, in most cases,

there is no chance that he is going to be pregnant. Right. So she, she, she's not too worried about that. Right. She's a, but what she is worried about is that if you're out, you know, sleeping with other women, maybe you end up raising those kids, taking care of her, taking care of those kids. And then she's left alone with a baby and nobody and nobody around. So both sexes have strong reasons to feel jealous. And those have deep roots in our evolutionary biology. You're in a relationship. Do you feel jealous ever? Yes. But, but I also, I will say this, that the, that the research really helps because it's like no genuinely

because I'm like here's the thing I'm going to give you I mean you're what 26, 27 I'm 40 almost 41

I would say every relationship I was in from 16 to 35 I was jealous so I'm going to grow out of it

at different levels I'm not saying you're going to grow out of it it was one of the hardest things for me to actually overcome now I'm just going to grow out of it. At different levels. I'm not saying you're going to grow out of it. It was one of the hardest things for me to actually overcome. Now I'm just going to speak from personal experience. I don't know if this backs any data or research or science that you've seen, but what I do know is being jealous was a horrible thing to feel.

It never felt good for me. I never felt empowered and excited by it. It caused more stress and anxiety. And it probably had me saying things that I shouldn't have said in my relationships, acting in certain ways I shouldn't have acted in. Nothing horrible, but nothing benefiting me. There was no benefit ever in the relationship for me being jealous. Now, you might be able to say, well, you know, having a little bit of jealousy

and saying, oh, who was that guy? And showing that you care that they were talking to someone else. Maybe there's some slight benefit for that. But just like you said, like, you know, someone in a boxing match who's like outmatched and know they're going to lose that builds and you start throwing haymakers later. That is not a fun picture in a relationship. Sometimes hard to get back. Yeah. And also it doesn't, everyone is, and I'm not a terribly jealous person.

I'm just acknowledging that I have that emotion. I have that emotion. Of course. Like everybody. I get it. To an extent. I certainly don't have morbid jealousy or anything like that. But you know, I mean the green-eyed monster

sometimes visits. Of course. But what I will say is that- Let me finish my thought then you add to that. But, but, you know, I mean the green eyed monster sometimes, sometimes visits. The, but what I will say is that, um, let me finish my thought. Then you add to that. So the jealousy that I felt never added any benefit to the relationship. And it only made me feeling more insecure and anxious. There was a time when I was about 34, 35, 36, in that time where I noticed the jealousy started to leave my body. Like I stopped being jealous that this person was going to be with someone else. There was something that flipped inside of me.

And I was in another relationship after that where I had zero jealousy that I can think of. Maybe there was moments, but it didn't come out as like jealous acts. And I remember thinking to myself, something switched inside of me. I don't know if it was the time, the season of life, the experiences of different relationships I'd been in, the agony and pain that I felt by having jealousy and 20 years of my life before that. But something flipped and I just said, if this person doesn't want to be with me, what's the point of me being jealous or insecure if they're going to move on and leave?

It's probably going to be painful in the moment, but it's going to benefit me in the long term. So I just got to a point in my relationship with Martha now when I started dating her. She's a very famous celebrity in her country and done 40 movies and- Her DM requests are probably horrifying. Oh yeah. I mean, I don't look at that stuff, but yeah, I mean- I'm kidding. Yeah, I'm sure she's got tons of men who have lots of money, who are, you know, sexy,

charming, who have big businesses, who are celebrities that were reaching out to her before me. And I'm sure some still reach out now. She doesn't engage in that, but if she didn't want to be with me, it would be the greatest gift that she would give me by moving on quicker than staying with me longer and then, and then cheating on me or ending it later. And so I'm like, if you want to be with me, it's because you're committed to the vision of our relationship and what we can build together. Now, that doesn't mean I just get to be a sloppy human being and stop caring about her and stop investing in time and communicating and loving her.

And speaking life and abundance into her. constantly developing self as a man and as a human being to build confidence, to be my word to myself, to add value to society, to be desirable to myself, but also to her. And if that's not enough for her, then we shouldn't be together. And so the jealousy thing just doesn't add value to the relationship from my experience. I completely agree. I think that's all very wise. I'm not saying you should just like cut it off right now. Yeah, I know. This isn't something

that I struggle with. Yeah, yeah. It's good. It's not a huge part of my life, but I was just admitting that I have the emotion like many people do.

Do you engage in any of the playful jealousy that we discussed? The kind of, hey, who was that guy? No. None of that? None of the jokes?

No. Interesting. I'm trying to, I mean, maybe there was once or twice where I was like, you know, where do you know that guy no none of that none of the jokes no interesting i'm trying to i mean maybe there was once or twice where i was like you know where do you know that guy from where like like someone came up to her like just curious like oh is this someone you dated in the past or someone who was hitting on you before just more of like who is this person yeah yeah but not from a sense of

like why are you talking to this guy yeah oh no no never never me either yeah yeah no no that's that's so but no i don't personality. But no, I don't. I don't know why. I don't. I think, again, I had too much pain and suffering by experiencing. No, I probably had a lot more jealousy than you. I wasn't as evolved as you. Yeah.

Well, it sounds like you really suffered from it. I've been quite lucky. I've also heard, I don't know. I mean, I think that a little bit of playful protectiveness, if it's in that spirit. Yeah. Yeah. I think that, again, some people find it quite sexy. Sure. And quite stimulating that it's like, oh, wow, this, you know, this. I get that. This woman wants me so badly. This guy wants me so badly. They don't want anyone else to talk to me. But as long as it's- But where does that go to?

But if it's not, yeah, but that's with the very strict provision that it's like, it doesn't lead to controlling and- Exactly. Such as going through DM requests. Yes. Such as going through- Give me access to everything. Yeah, share your location.

Where are you every two hours? All that stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why didn't you call me last night? Et cetera. And I think that's, it's a slippery slope. For sure. It's like, okay, I'm going to drink a glass of wine once a week. And then I start having twice a week and then two glasses of wine

a night. And then it's like, now I'm an alcoholic. So it's okay. Make sure you manage that, I think, is the thing. Otherwise, I just think that's a lot of relationships struggle with too much jealousy. Yeah. Yeah. From my personal experience. Yeah, yeah. For sure. I don't have the science behind it, but I'm curious, when you know when you've been dating someone that they are actually in love with you, are there clear signs that someone truly loves you? Such a good question. So I spoke to the world's leading expert, and I'll flag here as well that I'm a very, let's call it the earliest career researcher possible. I'm a PhD student. Everything that I've said in this conversation, you know, I've done some research myself.

We've run a couple studies. And, you know, one of them is in the write-up phase. One of them is under peer review. You know, I'm active as a peer reviewer and speak at academic conferences, et cetera. But I'm still very, you know, even though I'm an active researcher, I'm still very early. So everything that I've said so far, it's the work of other people, right? And that's, that's part of kind of my mission, let's say as a person is like, I love my field. I love the researchers in my field and I want all of their voices to be heard

on platforms like this. So I spoke to Helen Fisher, who is someone who definitely doesn't need my implication. She's, she's very famous. Um, but she's, I would say, the world leading expert in romantic love, understands it top to bottom, right? And what she told me is that the best proxy that we have, right? So there's all these symptoms of romantic love, but the most, you know, if we're talking about in love, like acutely in love, the symptom that you're looking for is obsessive thinking. Thinking about them all the time. Other things include, you know, special meaning, right? So their car is now better than all the other cars.

Their shoes are, the way they tie their shoes is so spectacular, you'd think it's adorable. Those sorts of, you know, imputing special meaning, that's pretty common with people who are in love. And love is also really best understood as, and this also comes from her work, really best understood as three brain systems, right? There's lust, which I don't think I need to explain. There's, let's call it passionate love, romantic love, right? This acute honeymoon phase style love, which generally lasts, if things go really well, could last maybe four years, if you're lucky. If you're a long distance relationship. Maybe a little longer. And the final form is attachment. So that's, you know, when you're settled down with someone and you want that to last a long time. And there's even those feelings of stability and

connection and deeper meaning. And those passionate love feelings go away. And some people think, oh, what a disaster. I want to keep them. But I mean, those passionate love feelings come with a lot of what we were just talking about, right? They come with a lot of jealousy. They come with a lot of... Do you really want your life to be categorized by obsessing over a romantic partner for 40 years? It's like there's more important things to be doing. A few years of that, I think, it's about right than other things. If someone is in a relationship with someone right now and they've been cheated on by that person, but they've chosen to stay with them, man or woman, been cheated on by that person, but they've chosen to stay with them, man or woman. Do you think it's possible based on research or science that you've studied that that relationship can

work or that they can be faithful after infidelity? I think we all know couples who have survived infidelity, right? And there's the kind of fright, aphorism, best predictor of future behaviors, past behavior. To an extent, that does seem to apply here. It's not the best predictor, but Kayla Knopp and her colleagues did a longitudinal study of people in relationships, so to say. And I believe it was Kayla Knopp. I'll have to double check that after the show. But there was a study in any case that looked at, okay, what's your relationship history, right? Where are you coming from here? And then watched, how did this relationship play out? And excuse me if I'm misquoting the stat, I read this study two years ago.

But I believe it was that people who had cheated in their past relationship, you know, I won't say a specific number it was, but it was a multiple more likely. It wasn't like they're 10% more likely. It was like they're three, three times more likely to cheat again. Right. Then someone else taken neutrally. Right. And that's previous relationship to current relationship. But I would say that it's like, you gain so much information. Plenty of people don't cheat. Plenty of people never cheat their entire lives, right? Plenty of women, plenty of men, maybe even most. And so if someone does that to you, they've just given you, as you might say, a gift of giving you all this information about them as a person. And I'm not

damning cheaters. Plenty of of, you know, psychologically normal, good people make mistakes that they consider mistakes immediately. Right. That happens. But this idea that it's like, you can, there are plenty, you know, there are plenty of fish in the sea and you want to choose the one fish that already did that to you. You know, I, but I would, I would say that this is that in speaking about this, I'm talking a lot about, I'm thinking in my mind because of my own age, I'm thinking of young relationships where hitting reset is pretty easy and finding someone new. But if you have 10 years of relationship and you've got a family and all this context,

it's a little different. So I'm not making any blanket recommendations. I'm just saying that if someone has cheated on you, yeah, they're more likely to cheat on you than a random stranger on the street. Do you feel like Gen Z is cheating more than other generations? I don't see any evidence of that. If anything, young people are engaging in less risky sexual behaviors across the board. Really? Why is that? It's interesting. I mean, that is something where I'm going to have to email you some names that you could talk to about that.

Some people call it the mating crisis. What is the mating crisis? That people aren't mating as much. Why is that? Well, there's a bunch of different theories. It's not my area of expertise. I'm sure you can sense that I'm kind of uncomfortable speaking about it because I think it's a little bit i'm very tentative about it i'll just say that right like this idea that it's that it's even a thing or that it's a bad

thing right right i mean is it such a bad thing that teenagers are having less casual sex is that really something that right is that a problem that needs to be fixed is it such a problem that people are waiting waiting longer before having sex for the first time? I don't know. And that's not the only... I'm probably dumbing it down. That's certainly not the only thing that people talk about the mating crisis. People talk about various subcultures formed around the state of not being able to mate and that sort of thing. And I appreciate that for some people, the mating market is probably especially hard now.

But you wanted to ask about why it's happening. Well, one component that a lot of people who are experts in this talk about is the fact that there's a risk reduction across the board. Right. So it's not just that they're having less casual sex. They're also drinking less, smoking less. Another factor that you'll hear about is that in some ways, there's a, in some specific ways, and I'm being very careful here because again, it's not my area of expertise. I've heard other people who are experts say that there's somewhat more social conservatism in some ways, using that word very carefully. I'm not saying that Gen Z is super right wing. I just mean that they are in their social behaviors more conservative, right? I just mean that they are in their social behaviors more conservative. Right. And so they might be less interested in getting super drunk on a Friday night and finding a random person at a club to get naked with.

Right. That's, you know, for a lot of people, that's a relatively wild thing to do. And they don't do it often if they do it at all. Have you ever been unfaithful in previous relationships? No, I haven't. I guess the follow-up question would be, how do you know you could change if that had happened in the past where you could still be a faithful person moving forward? Knowing that the statistics are more likely, how do you change behavior in someone who has? Well, one encouraging piece of advice is plenty of people in Kaelin Opp's study,

and I really hope it's Kaelin Opp now because I've said it twice. Many people in that study who cheated in their previous relationship didn't cheat in the next one. Right. So it's not doom, right? It's not that whole once a cheater, always a cheater thing. It's like, that's a good saying. And it's probably true in many cases, but it's not true in all cases. Interesting. But what you're asking, again, keep in mind that I'm more of a what is guy. And so I feel like that's quite a deep spiritual question to say, how can I change, right? And move forward. And it's one that I don't have any personal experience with. And so I haven't walked that road. And I also don't know of any data in terms of therapeutically helping people who have that. I would say though, that it's hard to imagine

therapy because it's not a pathological behavior in the sense that it's, as we spoke about at the start, animals also engage. Animals in socially monogamous species also engage in high rates of extra pair copulation, right? They also have affairs, right? So our closest socially monogamous relative, the gibbons, they're the species of ape. have really long arms they swing through the trees very hairy but they look like us otherwise they're quite close relatives of ours all things considered and they also engage in monogamy right there they're very beautiful creatures they pair up they go into the trees they actually sing duets it's very romantic really yeah and the singing seems to be kind of the gibbon version of posting each other on Instagram for humans. It's like, we're

together just so everyone knows. But it's also about territorial defense and social signaling and whatnot. And scientists did an experiment that they really couldn't get away with in humans where they, I believe this was Reichardt, they just watched them and they counted every time they saw them have sex and they were like, or engage in intercourse or copulate. And they said, okay, how many times are they mating with their partner? How many times are they mating with someone else? Right. Someone who's not their partner and 11% of the time they were cheating, right. Which is much higher than humans. Wow. Right. So treating it as, I'm not saying that every behavior that occurs in other animals occurs in humans, but we see documented rates of extra pair paternity across the animal

kingdom, across socially monogamous lineages. And so even though it's not necessarily a good thing to do, and so it's pathological in that sense, maybe it's morally pathological, from a psychological perspective, we all evolved to have these urges. It's just a matter of whether you choose to succumb to them. What about if someone has been cheated on in a previous relationship? What should you look out for in dating someone who has been cheated on by someone else? Well, that's a really good question. Gosh, you're really nailing these questions. I'm trying to set you up for the success of the rest of the interviews you'll do with the hardest questions up front.

Yeah. No, I think these are excellent. Is there any research on that or how to approach a potential partner where in the first few days they say, you know what? I've been cheated on a lot in my past and it's a big concern of mine and I have a lot of worries you're not going to cheat you're not going to do this you know or someone who's had that trauma yeah how should you approach entering a relationship with someone's been cheated on well you're already signaling it's it's very perspicacious of you to notice that in your imitation you're performing reassurance seeking which is a behavior that's very commonly exhibited by people who have been cheated on. Right. So, you know, you go through your, this is like a typical kind of romantic career, everything, you know, you're, you're dating

someone in high school, dating some people in college, dah, dah, dah, dah. And then you're, you're never even thinking of the possibility that you could get cheated on. And then you, you know, see a text pop up on your partner's phone and it's like, oh my gosh. And then you find out whatever, dah, dah, dah, dah. And that's a traumatic event for many people. I mean- It's a betrayal. Well, I'll even go so far as to say traumatic just because it's certainly a betrayal, but to take it to kind of into the psychological space, PTSD is generally a term only assigned to physical threats. And it's kind of unclear whether you can really categorize infidelity that way, but the symptoms of PTSD are so common, right? Such as reassurance seeking,

ruminating, et cetera, are so common among people who have been cheated on that some psychologists have coined the term and use the term PISD, right? Post-infidelity stress disorder. My advice here would be to proceed with caution and understanding and goodwill that you're dealing with someone. If you don't know what that's like, you're dealing with someone who is dealing with something quite severe. And this is another thing that I just want to know. I mean, you might be mercifully tucked away from this corner of the internet, but there's a whole corner of the internet right now that's like men cheating is fine, women cheating is not. And it's like, we've done the research on this and women who get cheated on are often severely traumatized, right? Like about half of

women who, and in some studies, more than half of women who are paired with men who are unfaithful exhibit these symptoms, right? So to say it just callously, like, oh, it's different, you know, some nonsense about, you know, a key that opens many locks versus, you know, some stupid platitude. And it's like, what a careless thing to say about the feelings of the women that you're with. And, you know, I just wonder,

like, do these men even have mothers the way they speak about these things? Wow. I'm curious what we should be more cautious of getting into a relationship with someone who cheated before or getting into a relationship with someone who's been cheated on. Well, I would be more cautious of a few more cautious about the worried about. But it depends what your concerns are. If you're worried about being with someone who's completely. Like if someone has got PISD. Yeah.

And they're struggling. And they can never trust the person they're with. And they're always stressed and anxious and they're always ruminating and reassurance. And where are you? And that's not attractive after a while. No, it's a huge issue. It's a huge issue. You might feel exhausted and you'd be like, I don't want to be with this person.

Yeah. They can't trust me. If they're always checking where I'm at, if they're always calling me saying FaceTime me, where are you? Who are you with? Who is that person? That's not a sexy quality in a mating partner. And so is that a bigger red flag?

If someone who hasn't dealt with, I'm not saying it's okay what they went through, but if they haven't processed and started to heal that, is that more of a red flag versus someone who, you know, in their previous relationship cheated on their partner? You've made such good points here. You've got to do some research on this. Yeah, well, because my gut reaction was obviously I don't want to, I'm thinking about. The cheater, be cheated on. Yeah, I'm like, oh, I don't want to be cheated on, so I'm going to go with that. But you've brought up a good point. I don't even know if I should share this, but there, okay.

I don't even know if I should share this, but there, okay. In, I believe it was in the same study that I'm referencing, um, about, you know, once a cheater, always a cheater, that kind of thing. Uh, there's also indicative evidence and it, you know, it's just one study. So let's not, yes, let's not go to the bank on it. You're really, you want to look for, you look for cumulative bodies of research when you're assessing a finding. But there's indicative evidence that people who have been cheated on in the past are more likely to be cheated on in their next relationship. Oh man, that's crazy. Now, that's a disturbing finding. And you might think, well, that doesn't make any sense, right?

How could that affect my probabilities? And I'll give you a couple examples that could be, not saying that this has been studied enough to make conclusions, but if you're the sort of person who is attracted to narcissism, let's say. Plenty of people find narcissism quite sexy. Good luck. Right? Yeah. But narcissism is associated with infidelity. Plenty of people find sexual narcissism quite sexy. Good luck. Right. Yeah. But narcissism is associated with infidelity.

Plenty of people find sexual narcissism sexy, right? So that's someone who believes that they're the best lover ever and is totally confident in bed. That also predicts infidelity, right? And so you're attracted to a trait and that predicts your partner selection. And then the types of partners that you're attracted to, you, you happen to be cursed by being attracted to covariates of infidelity. You got a bad picker. You're a bad picker. Another thing would be just physical attractiveness. If you really prioritize that people are more physically attractive, tend to have more options, tend to be more interested in suitors, et cetera, tend to be less satisfied in relationships. So if you're really interested, if you're really prioritizing like, oh, I just want to date the hottest girl possible. It's like,

maybe that's why you keep getting cheated on is because you're not thinking about deeper qualities. And then, so not to victim blame, but it could be picking. And then it, I hate even saying this, but it could possibly be what you're talking about. I know of an anecdotal case where I know, I know a woman who told me she was like, my boyfriend was accusing me of cheating so much that I actually just did it. Like she was being falsely accused so much that it was like, I'm going to be-

Might as well just do this. Yeah, it's like, I'm the bad guy regardless of what I do. So what's the point in being good? So I'm not saying that that's what causes it, but I'm saying that there's a, some people hear that, they hear,

oh, if I was cheated on in my last relationship, I'm more likely to be cheated in my next relationship. And they just think that couldn't be true. And it's like, well, there's actually several ways that it could be true. And we just talk about it. Gosh, this is so fascinating. You know, I really think about when we choose out of a wound, you know, you're talking about you're attracted to narcissism. Maybe there was something your parent, one of your parents had this trait and it was attractive to you or just maybe it was unattractive

but you're trying to fix that parent or whatever it might be. But when we are attracted based on a wound, a psychological wound, it typically ends up having more challenges and problems we need to overcome in that relationship because we're trying to fix someone. We're trying to, we're attracted to them and then we want to change them.

As opposed to being attracted and saying, I accept you for who you are. Obviously we're going to grow and evolve, but I accept the personality, the values, the qualities that you have. And I think if we haven't healed something within us, we're going to keep attracting that thing that chemically, sexually stimulates us and makes us feel something. But then we're going to also be afraid of it or we're going to be needing reassurance on something. So we're attracted, but you're not going to hurt me. Are you? As opposed to, oh, I see you for the whole person that you are. I've asked all the questions. I'm allowing my gut to also have intuition and be like, is he being honest? And is she following through on what

she's saying? And is there congruency? Then you're able to choose based on the whole person versus, oh, I'm just getting this chemical feeling by what I see or what I'm attracted to. What's your thoughts on that? I think you put it quite well and I don't have much to add. I would also note that with my specific example, narcissism is interesting because there are very good reasons to be... So narcissism pretty consistently has a small effect predicting attractiveness in general. Really? What do you mean by that? Meaning that if someone's super cocky versus someone who's average cockiness or insecure,

the cocky person generally has a slight competitive advantage in a speed dating setting. More options. I think it's more- More attractiveness. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Got it. And you can talk about why that is. And one of it is just that who doesn't want to be around someone confident, right? And also it gives you this veneer of being able to take care of yourself and others. I think that some people, I think that to be honest, it's like, I'm not saying that I prefer that.

I don't. I'm not saying that I prefer that. I don't. But I do understand that a trait that is in some ways negative, narcissism, in many ways negative, actually, I'll be frank, in certain environments, and maybe such as a speed dating study, you sit down with someone and they sit down at the table, they're full of confidence, they're relaxed, they want to chat with you, they want to flirt with you, and they're taking all your compliments in their stride. That's a lot of fun to be around. And so it might not be that that person is wounded and choosing, you know, sexual narcissists, let's say, but. They haven't spent enough time with them yet. Spend time with someone, get to know them before you commit. Yeah. And maybe, yeah, I would say that my,

so this podcast is very big on, you know, helping people add value to their lives and improve. And I'm not really much of an advice person, but I will say one piece of advice that if you find yourself getting cheated on over and over and over again, if you're listening to this, it would be worth taking a step back and saying, look, it's not my fault that this happened, but what can I change about my future behavior to avoid this happening again? And I think one set to look at changing would be in picking. It's like, okay, well, I keep getting cheated on. Who am I, who am I, who am I dating? Well, I'm only dating hot narcissists, let's say, right. I'm only dating, you know, socially, socio-sexually unrestricted party animals, right. Maybe I can pick someone more

settled down, more reliable, and maybe they don't have that same sexy cockiness and party atmosphere, but maybe they're going to be more reliable. And then on the other end, the other set of things, so that's choosing. And then maybe there's also, I mean, humans naturally perform a suite of mate retention behaviors, right? It could partially be a skill issue. It's like you're creating an atmosphere that pushes people away in your relationships. And it's like, how can I create an atmosphere that, you know, very much like you were saying earlier about your kind of journey, personal journey with jealousy, we're creating an atmosphere where people want to stay as opposed to creating a cage that they're, they feel trapped in. Yeah, exactly. From all the research that you've done, again,

you're early in your career, but you've done a lot of research and studies, um, and, and you've dived into the research from a lot of other people. Yeah. I mean, I've done, I, I, again, I've done two studies. I'm known not for like, if I, I was telling you before, it's like, if I go to an academic conference, nobody's coming up to me trying to talk to me about, you know, like, oh, I really liked that study. They want to talk about TikTok. Sure, sure, sure. But all the really liked that study. They want to talk about TikTok. Sure, sure, sure. But all the research that you've done and studied other people's work. Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course. You did years and years reading. What is the research that stands out to you the most around love, relationships, and intimacy in a modern world? And what is the research where you know data proves something that you still need work on personally? And you know what? I actually think I can do a blended answer here. So this is partially coming from Helen Fisher, right? Who we mentioned earlier. It would be nice to give her a shout out, but also, you know, other disciplines, the research on what we know impacts success in romantic relationships.

So there are very simple things that you can do to improve your romantic connection with someone. Some obvious ones are have more sex, say nice things to them, flirt with them, ones are, you know, have more sex, say nice things to them, flirt with them, but also touch them in non-escalative ways. Let's say cuddling is very good for you, you know, being more, you know, physically generous in the sense that, you know, maybe you're in the kitchen with them, giving them, you know, giving them a kiss on the back of the neck or something like that. Those things seem to really improve everyone's satisfaction, both yours and theirs being, being very romantically generous, even with someone who you've been with for a long time, these, and it's, and it's interesting how effective it is from a subjective perspective. If you've been in a long relationship,

just be like, Oh, I can kind of, I can force it a little bit. I can be like, I'm going to give this person a compliment just for no reason right now. And watch how it changes your relationship. You feel better. You feel better, they feel better. And that's, you know, that's a, you met Tim, obviously that that's part of what we're doing at Coupley, right? Where we're really trying to, so Coupley is our app that we have where you and your partner both download it. And what we're trying to do is to integrate some of the science of what makes a successful relationship into that so that the advice that we're giving, right, and the activities that we're providing are ones that

can actively lead to good outcomes between couples. Now, in terms of things that I need to work on, right, I think, I mean, that's quite a personal question and it's interesting, but I'll say that- I'm getting personal with you. I've underestimated the importance of physical attractiveness to romantic love, right? If you're in a relationship, you cannot just take your foot off the gas and start looking like a slob and hope that they'll stick around for your personality. That might be the world that we want to be in, but a huge component of being in a relationship and showing up for them is doing that. It's taking care of yourself. Yeah, it's taking care of yourself.

And really not just at a spiritual level, but also at a physical level. It's like we see that people in relationships tend to invest less in their physical appearance, but investing in your physical appearances- How important is being physically attractive in a long-term relationship? Well, in short-term relationships, very important. It's the most important thing probably. To attracting the person. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So in speed dating study, we all in our surveys and questionnaires, we say, oh, I want someone who's honest, generous, loyal, kind, et cetera. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Smart. Yeah, smart. Yeah. We talked about that before the show a little bit.

Yeah. We talked about that before the show a little bit, but in behavioral studies, depending on the study, physical attractiveness comes out as really important. Because the number one factor. In a speed dating paradigm, right? So speed dating paradigm, you get people in the real world to meet- You get 60 seconds with a person. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're going to be like, am I physically attracted to this person or not? But it's also kind of funny because we see it in vignette studies as well and physical attractiveness seems to have an effect on people's

perception of your personality that's a very well established psychological finding yeah yeah yeah it's guys some people call it the halo effect which is more extrapolable and it's not exactly what we're talking about here but it's related which is this idea that if you're you know if you if you and this is kind of a caricature of it, but it is, but it is broadly true that it's like, okay, well, which of these photos is sexiest to you? And it's like this guy or this girl. And then it's like, now, which of these biographies paired with the photos has the best personality? It's like also this guy. Right, right, right. So, so then there's also things where attractive people are perceived to be more intelligent, even though they're probably not. are perceived to be more intelligent, even though they're probably not. Really? Yeah. Attractive people are perceived to be funnier, even though they're probably not. Uh, attractive people, you know, they get all these career benefits, but the main benefit seems to be in mating. I mean,

attraction, being attractive isn't just about attracting mates, right? And we can talk about that more, but in attracting mates, it is, it is a, it is a tremendous advantage. Attractive people have more mates, more desirable mates, more committed and doting mates. The only way that I'm aware of that you can plug in attractiveness and see, oh, this is actually a disadvantage, is that more physically attractive people tend to be less satisfied in their romantic relationships. Why is that? Well, I mean, it depends on the study. I'm not saying that that's a consistent result that it's like this gets found every time, but there is some indicative evidence that more physically attractive people are less satisfied. And that if you manipulate their

perception of their own attractiveness, you make them think that they're hot. Then they are like more interested in other people and that kind of thing. Wow. Because they keep looking for the greater option. It's harder to be happy with your choice of meal when everything's on the menu. Right. And if you're super hot, you've got more choices. Right. That would be, that's what other people have said about this is it's like, it's kind of hard to settle down when it's like people are constantly interested in you, that sort

of thing. But again, it could be that this, I mean, again, this isn't what we might call, I mean, no one in academia ever uses this phrase, but like settled science, right? It could be that more studies are done. And for anything that I've said in this podcast, it could be the case that future studies are done and this turns out not to replicate or it doesn't seem to be true. But based on the evidence that I'm aware of, right, initially, it does seem to be that physically attractive people have a harder time settling. But other than that, it's just win after win after win. The people, more people will be interested in you.

Those people will be more interested in you. And they'll also treat you better. They'll be less likely to cheat on you, more interested in giving you gifts, all that sort of stuff. Interesting. Tons of connected findings here. What's the downside of being extremely physically attractive? Well, that's one. And other than that, it just seems to really help.

Right. It's like you get paid more. People think you're cooler. People think you have a better personality. People think you're funnier. There's a, there's a really funny study where they played, you know, they, they, they asked a bunch of people, they're like, what would you bring to a desert Island? Right. And that's a great, if you're a funny person, that's a great opportunity to be funny. Right. And so they brought in a bunch of people and they said, you know, speak into the recorder, right? We'll video

you. What would you bring to a desert Island? And some people, you know, they were funny. Some people weren't, they showed people just the audio, right? And I'll be very careful here. So I don't mess this up because it's kind of complex, but with just basically they did an audio only condition and a looks and audio condition. So you can see who's speaking and the unattractive people became less funny once they could be seen. Right. And the attractive people were more funny in the video condition. What are the pros and cons to a woman or a man dating above or below where they're currently believed they're at in the league sense well the benefits of dating someone out of your league are pretty clear right it's like most people like to date hot funny intelligent fun people who have money and are willing to spend it on you right

and there's nothing wrong with that. And the benefits of dating someone who's hotter, funnier, richer, more intelligent, better mental health, physically healthier, the benefits to that, it's like, okay, I get it. I get why you want to do that. And I think that probably everyone listening does, but the costs are more insidious in the sense that they're not immediately apparent and they might follow you through the relationship.

So that hotness, for example, might matter upfront to you, but maybe it doesn't matter as much to you 12 months down the line when it's like those initial kind of high lust feelings have maybe cooled down a little bit. And now it's like, you know, you're out at the bar and having to deal with the fact that girls are approaching and maybe that stresses you out, right? Maybe you haven't done the internal work on jealousy yet, or maybe they've got a wandering eye because they've been with better and they could do better and they're constantly getting opportunities to do better. So I would say that the benefits of dating someone above your league are quite clear to everybody and that's why people sometimes pursue it. But the costs are that this is going to be someone who is very likely harder to keep.

And look, people who can do better generally do do better, and can you really blame them, right? And so if you're going to go out of your way to try and date someone who can do better, that maybe isn't the most strategically prudent move, right? It might be best to... I mean, David Buss, who is the most cited evolutionary psychologist in history, I tend to agree with him that the best situation is that you think, and I believe he said this in his book,

When Men Behave Badly, is that you think, and I hope I'm not misquoting him, you think that they can do better, but they canoting them, you think that they can do better, but they can't. So you think that they're out of your league, but you're actually wrong about it. And they basically think the same thing about you. So you're in a position where it's kind of crossed misperceptions where you think, oh, they're just the greatest mate ever. They could have anybody. And they think the same thing about you and both of you are wrong is that a good thing or a bad thing well it's a good thing in the sense

that you're going to be very grateful for them and think they're fantastic but you're not going to have to deal with the costs of them going elsewhere because they actually they're grateful for you too so both of you thinking oh i've really leveled up that's exactly what i'm trying to say you summarized it much better than i did yes is that you are looking across the bedroom looking across the dinner, looking across the dinner table, holding their hand on a walk and thinking, gosh, I'm lucky. Yeah, exactly. Like I am just, I've hit the lottery here and you're wrong. Right. That's probably the best case scenario. As a behavior scientist on these topics, where do you struggle with allowing data and analysis and research and science that you're

constantly studying versus being in the moment in a relationship with your partner? Do you have any struggles of just allowing yourself to be, feel, experience without thinking, analyzing, feel experience without thinking, analyzing, managing science in your mind at the same time? I mean, people have a very hard time believing this, but I really do put it for the most part, put it all aside and just follow my heart. Really? Yeah. It's like, I, yeah, I, I think this stuff is very interesting and some of it is helpful, is very interesting and some of it is helpful. But for the most part, I'm a man with real emotions and those emotions drive my behavior. And I follow them pretty consistently. I'm not the sort of person who's like, oh, let me calculate based on my, what I should do here. I've made tremendously illogical

decisions because I was feeling strong romantic emotions and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. And I've also- You went against data. Yeah, I would say so. I mean- And it worked out. Yeah. And I also think that that would be, I would say that this stuff is very fun to think about and some of it is really useful. But for the most part, just fall in love, have a great time and don't sweat all this. Yeah. A lot of people, they hear me talk.

I get people in my comments all the time saying this, you know, Mac and Murphy's the most depressing man on the internet. And I'm like, you know, this is genuinely, it's like, this is, this is like people, people say very negative things from the perspective of like, I can't stop watching this, but it's making me very depressed. And it's like, here's my, here's the analogy that, that comes to mind. Right. I, so I like explaining things, right? And I like understanding them, but it doesn't... So when I'm eating an apple, right? I'm eating the apple and I'm not

thinking, oh, the sensations in my mouth feel good because my primate ancestors benefited from fruit sugars in such a way that the ones who liked it reproduced more than the ones who didn't like it. That would be a crazy thing to think. I'm just eating the apple and having a nice time, right? Right. And in the same way, when I'm, you know, having a cup of tea with my girlfriend and we're just kind of talking through the day and having a nice time, the data couldn't be further away from my heart. Wow. It's just not impacting me at all.

That's cool, man. That's good to know that Mac and Murphy is a human being. Yeah. Not just a human thinking, analyzing scientist. I think that TikTok favors me coming across as a robot, which is fine. But it was just the one minute of me talking about data super fast. Right, right, right.

That's great, man. I have no feelings. This has been awesome and fascinating, Mac. And I'm excited for your journey, where you're at. I know you're still kind of just really getting started with your own research and your science and things like that. But the content you're putting out there, I think, is inspiring a lot of people, even though you say it's depressing more people. Well, I don lot of people, even though you say it's depressing more people.

Well, I don't know. I don't know if it's depressing more people. I just know that there's a contingent, especially it seems. I mean, my audience is mostly women. And then there's this contingent of men that watch as well. And then there's this contingent of young men who are struggling on the mating market who they just see my data. And it's just more evidence that they're screwed in their minds. And I don't think that's necessarily true, but you know, in some, like if you're an unattractive man scrolling through your feed and my face comes up and I'm like, attractive man, I have more

mates, more desirable mates, more commitment. That's, that is depressing. I get it. Yeah. Well, you've got this app called Coupley, which is essentially helping couples. It's not about people that are trying to get into relationships, people that are already in a relationship to maintain and improve their relationships. And you're an advisor in this and you're helping kind of create some of the curriculum in there as well. But this app is already out. Is that right? Oh yeah, totally. So basically the concept of coupling, right? There's so many apps that try to get you into relationships, right? And this is an app that's geared towards trying to help you stay in one. That's great.

You can think of the mating market like a revolving door where people are getting kind of pulled from the single pool and thrown into the dating pool constantly, right? And if you think that people being in loving romantic relationships is a good thing, right? If you actually like that, which I do, then you want more people to go in and less people to go out. Right. And a lot of people right now are working on the in problem. So most people are in relationships and then there's this pool of single people, depending on your data set, but it's a minority of people. There's this small group of single people, right? Not small, sizable minority of single people. And there's a bunch of apps and products that are just trying to push people

in ostensibly. Maybe they're not trying to do that. I won't say either way. But there are, you know, these dating apps and dating websites and, you know, pick up artist courses and things like that. That it's like stop being single, basically. And then there's all these people here who basically have no help at all. Like it's like there's the couples therapy if things get really bad. But for the most part, there's just not that many tools. Right. Certainly not on your smartphone. And so what we've done with Couplate is we've created an app where which I've just come on

board as a scientific advisor, part owner as well, where you and your partner download the app and you both participate in quizzes to get to know each other better. You take courses as well to understand how to improve your relationship, deal with things like jealousy, which we mentioned. into the app so we can actually help people in a data informed way. I'm not saying that it's partially experimental, but just trying to actually say, well, what is likely to really help people in relationships? So to give an example of, you know, one of my colleagues, one really important thing for couples is one really strong predictor of relationship satisfaction is sexual satisfaction, right? So couples that, I don't think it should be a surprise to anybody, couples that are having great sex tend to be happy with each other, right? And so one thing that, you know, Tim Johnson, my CEO has done is bring on Dr. Tara, who is, you know, the real quote unquote sexpert, right?

And she's going to be helping in the app in a similar way to me just to improve people's sex lives, right? So bring in fun, sexy quizzes and things like that and courses and classes and what we're hoping right is that this will make this will make mating better for the people who are paired right because the people who are actually made it um rather than just trying to come up with a new way to swipe your thumbs and meet people it It's great, man. Copley. Yeah. They can get it anywhere on the App Store or whatever,

if they go to the App Store on iPhone, Android, everything like that. Yeah, yeah. And it's got a pretty large user base already. I think we're at like 400,000 users. Wow, that's great. It's definitely established. That's awesome. But looking to take it to the next level with some science. We're playing around with AI as well.

It's going to be interesting. Very cool. Copley, make sure you guys check out the app. A couple of final questions for you, Macken, but I want people to follow you. TikTok is your main spot. Macken Murphy, I believe, is still your main place. Although you've got a lot of different places people can follow you, but is that where you think they should go to first or MackenMurphy.org? Where should they connect with you? I think that the safest thing to do would just be to Google my name and just kind of fall wherever you land. I mean, I know that, you know, I'm mostly on TikTok. It's true. That's a very, you know, Gen Z space.

And I'm really grateful to that group of people for boosting me in this way. I mean, obviously, you know, I'm not, I'm not a famous academic. I'm really, you know, it's, it's science communication. I do, I am a scientist. I am an active researcher, but it's really a science communication. That's, that's another, something we're grateful to that group. Yeah. So TikTok would be fine. But if you're, I mean, you messaged me, you, when I had like 700 followers on Instagram, I think, um, Instagram is growing as well. And YouTube is tiny. And I have no idea why. I'm on all of them.

You're on all of them. So follow you, check you out everywhere. This is a question I ask everyone at the end of my interviews. And maybe this will change in the next five, 10 years for you. Because you are so young in your life still. But this is a question I ask everyone. It's called the three truths. So I want you to imagine a hypothetical scenario.

You get to live as long as you want to live. You know, you can be 80, a hundred and 200, whatever, but you get to live your life exactly how you design it and envision it. And everything you want to create, it comes true. Personal, professional. But for whatever reason, everything you create in your lifetime it comes true, personal, professional, but for whatever reason, everything you create in your lifetime from here, moving forward, it has to go with you to somewhere else. We don't have access to it in this world, this conversation, any books, podcasts, anything you

ever create, we don't have access. Your research, all of it will be gone, hypothetical. But if you could put yourself in, into your future self and imagine those experiences happening, living the life you want to live. And on the last day, you can only share three lessons with the world. And imagine you've experienced this life. What would be those three truths that you would leave behind? Oh man, this is a really tough question. I'm very conscious of the fact that, you know, I'm young and I don't necessarily have the sort of wisdom that would... This may change, obviously, but where do you think you're at right now? And what do you think your future self will want to share? piece of advice that's been really helpful to me is to at least in terms of at least in terms of how you behave to try and to try and live in accordance with your values as opposed to the vicissitudes of your base emotions and chance thoughts i would say to and this isn't original.

I can't remember who this comes from, but it was also very influential on me. I'm going to be kicking myself afterwards. But someone said in a book that I was reading, they said to think more about cultivating your obituary virtues as opposed to your resume virtues. And that had a profound influence on me. So thinking more in terms of what are people going to say when I'm gone versus what am I able to say in a job interview? And then I guess to keep it appropriate to the topic that we've been talking about today, I would say that the person you pick, most people, we're in a Western context. I know that you've got a global audience, but I would say that most of your audience is probably Western. as you have recently, pick someone, enter a very serious romantic relationship and try to stay with them forever. Right. I would say that that choice, not the first to say it is probably the most important one that you make. And then how you interface with them, that that's, that's the,

probably the most important relationship you'll have. It's certainly the one, I mean, most of us, our parents will pass away about halfway through life and our children will grow up, leave the house, et cetera. And it's like the person who's likely going to be with you throughout that time is your romantic partner. And so careful with that choice and then really think of it like a skill that you want to be excellent at in terms of maintaining that. And I say all these pieces of advice with the caveat that I am a newborn baby and I have no idea what I'm talking about. I think it's great wisdom though. And none of it comes from me. All of that is trying to cite other people.

I love it though. Before I ask the final question, Matt, and I want to acknowledge you for being an academic researcher, a scientist in academia, but bringing this to the masses. People in science and academics that are doing great work, but they're also not putting themselves out there for many other reasons. And I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing, but I just want to acknowledge you for finding research that can be helpful and beneficial to individuals for their personal lives and their relationships to improve and doing it in a research-based way, sharing with others to support them. So I really acknowledge you for starting this journey. It takes a lot of courage, especially coming from academics. I know a lot of academics don't want to be on social media, resist it. They shy away from it. So I'm glad you're doing it and I encourage you to continue to do more. So congrats on everything, man. Thank you. Final question. What do you think is your definition of greatness

at this age in your life? I really admire people who have real success in the home in the sense that I just really look up to that. People who have their family life totally together. That to me. Yeah. I mean, status, money, these things are very flashy and awesome and fun to chase. But in terms of what I actually look up to, it's, I love it when, and really respect and admire it when someone has sorted it inside their own home. There you go. Mack, thanks, man.

Cheers, brother. Appreciate it. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a

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