The School of Greatness - Rick Rubin: The Spiritual Secret to Limitless Creativity

Episode Date: November 7, 2025

Rick Rubin reveals something most nine-time Grammy winners would never admit: he walks into every new project terrified because he has no control over what will happen. This vulnerability, paired with an unshakeable commitment to making art as a devotional act, has guided collaborations with everyone from Johnny Cash to the Red Hot Chili Peppers. You'll hear how Rick lost 135 pounds by surrendering control, why he believes wrestling is the most honest sport, and what changed when he realized greatness isn't about worldly success but about making a gift to God. This isn't advice about making better art. This is about becoming someone capable of receiving it.Rick’s book The Creative ActIn this episode you will:Discover why making art for yourself is the only path to truly serving your audience and how the moment you stop caring about reactions is when your best work emergesTransform your relationship with creative blocks by understanding that obstacles aren't always meant to be pushed through and sometimes the universe is telling you now is not the timeBreak through decades of people-pleasing by recognizing that your inner voice knows exactly what tastes good to you and no external opinion can convince you otherwiseUncover the hidden cost of success and why achieving your biggest goals often reveals they were never going to fill the hole in your soulMaster the practice of making art as a devotional act and learn why creating a gift for God eliminates every worldly concern about chart positions and commercial performanceFor more information go to https://lewishowes.com/1847For more Greatness text PODCAST to [phone]More SOG episodes we think you’ll love:Michael Bublé – greatness.lnk.to/1827SCJosh Groban  – greatness.lnk.to/1818SCRupi Kaur – greatness.lnk.to/1678SC Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy!Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness, very excited about our guests. We have the inspiring Rick Rubin in the house. Good to see you, sir, and thank you for being here. You have an incredible journey, incredible story, and you've done some amazing things. You're a nine-time Grammy-winning producer, named one of Time Magazine's 100 most influential people in the world. You've got a number one year-time best-selling book, which has just taken over. the world in a powerful way and I've got so many questions I'm going to ask you about this but you've also worked with some of the most influential artists of our generation which is really cool

just to sit and be with you to talk about some of this some of the people like red out chili peppers Johnny Cash Jay Z Tom Petty on Adela Ray so many Adele the chicks Kanye West Lady Gaga so many incredible influential artists of our time I watch part of your documentary series, and I just am fascinated by the way you think and by the way you move throughout space and time. I love that you're an avid meditator and that you walk around barefoot pretty much every single day. I think you had to wear shoes here today just to enter the building, but otherwise, 99% of your life is barefoot. And something that I feel like a lot of people struggle with is tapping into their creativity. And I think a lot of people,

are born with an artistic expression inside of them, but then it gets diminished over time, a lot of people, not everyone. And I'm curious, do you feel like, when have you felt like you've been most insecure in your creative endeavors? Because you seem so confident. You have hit after hit. Everything you touch turns into gold seemingly,

but I'm also assuming that not everything works out. the way you envision. Do you ever feel insecure with your artistic expression or are you always confident? I'm confident with artistic expression because my only goal is to make something that I like and I know that I can keep working on it until I like it. So in some ways there's no pressure because the goal is to make the thing that I like. I know what I like. If I don't like it, I keep working, and eventually we get to a place where we like it. Yeah. Do you ever face the inner critic of, well, what if other people don't like this?

No, I don't consider them at all. Really? Yeah. Something I say in the book is that the audience comes last. And I believe that. I'm not making it for them. I'm making it for me. And it turns out that when you make something truly for yourself,

you're doing the best thing you possibly can for the audience so much of why if you go to the movies so many big movies just not good it's because they're they're not being made by a person who cares about it they're being made by people who are trying to make something that they think someone else is going to like and that's not how art works art doesn't that's something else it's not art that's commerce so if we're making art we're making it's it's almost like it's almost like a diary entry so it can someone could i be concerned that someone might not like my diary entry doesn't make sense you know it has nothing to do with them my my diary entry has nothing to do with anyone else so everything we make as artists are essentially diary entries

that's interesting and it's also most people never want the world to see their diary right it's like you kind of keep it closed off you keep it to yourself you almost feel embarrassed if someone found your diary if it's really personal intimate you know fears or concerns or hopes and dreams so how does someone write or create something for themselves in their own personal diary but also want to share it with the world and not allow the criticisms to affect them that's where the um the courage of the artist comes in which is this is who I am and in my case I'm less concerned with the result so I think that's a lot of it is like I'm not making it for someone else to get their reaction I'm making it to have my experience and as soon as I decide to share it in my mind it's success because I care about it enough I like it enough for other people to see it. If other people, they can like it or not. That's up to them.

And that's their thing. You know, that's about them. That's not about me. Why do you think so many people struggle with the opinions of others when they're sharing their art to the world? I think it's a natural human thought. I don't know if it was always the case. Because you don't have that at all.

I don't have that at all. I don't have that at all. But it seems like 99% of people have that. It seems like it. Maybe I'm wrong. Yeah, I think the best artists tend not to have that or find a way to turn it off. Really? And a big part of my job with artists is helping them turn it off.

It's like we're not, we're not thinking about singles. We're not thinking about chart position. We're not thinking about anything, but making the most beautiful, honest, true thing we can. And when I say honest and true, it could be fiction. Do you know what I'm saying? It's not, uh, it's the thing that's, touches us and excites us and surprises us, which is also interesting, the fact that we can make something that surprises us happens every day. Yeah, you talk about magic a lot. You know, I've seen that

in your book, but also in the documentary series about, you know, the work you've done. And how does someone tap into their own magic when they have such a critical mind, self-criticism, but also family critics, managers, all that other stuff criticizing what's good and what's not good. How do you coach someone to actually eliminate or diminish decades of conditioning within a week or two to make their art? I would say the, it comes down to a... Like a personal reaction to something. If I gave you two different foods and I asked you to taste them,

you wouldn't have a hard time telling me which one you liked. If you really liked one and didn't like the other. So if you had people around you saying, no, but this other one that you don't like, that's the good one, that no one could convince you that the thing that tastes bad to you taste good to you. So it's a very simple, it's such a simple idea. getting to, what do I actually like?

No second guessing. No, it doesn't go past. And it doesn't have to stand for anything. It doesn't have to represent you. It's just, this is the thing that tastes good to me. What do you think? That's our whole job is, this tastes good to me. What do you think?

When an artist is, you mentioned commerce and you mention art, when an artist is struggling financially. And they're like, I want to make things that I enjoy that taste really good for me. But I've been doing that for five, seven, ten years and it doesn't taste good for anyone else. How can I make a living around my art? Or should I not think about my art as making a living, but I should be thinking about commerce separate from the art. I think dividing them is a really healthy idea. And then having a job that supports you so that you can be free in your art is ultimately what's best for the art.

Really? Yeah. Now, you can get a job related. You know, you can get a job in the industry you're interested in. You can get a job. If you're a painter, you can get a job in a gallery. You can be around it. And then also when you do something like that, if you were to work in a recording studio,

you may decide this is not for me. You know, we don't really know. We have ideas of what we want to try, but then when you try them, sometimes, yes, that works, sometimes you don't. So many people get on a track when they're young. I have a cousin who went school to become a dentist, and he was a dentist for years. And after 15 or 20 years, just like, I can't do this. I don't want to do this.

It was a wrong choice. So many people live an unhappy life sticking to a program from when they were younger. And we have to find, like, you, you are speaking to people now versus playing sports. It's a big change. Yeah. But it seems like a really positive change for you. But it wasn't what you set out to do originally. Right.

Yeah. You've been doing this for how long now, producing music for, 40 years? About 40 years. Roughly 40 years. Close to 40 years. Have there ever been a time where you felt like it was stagnant for you? Or you weren't creatively inspired or you felt like it was dull. It wasn't this awe or magic that you were wanting.

It's always magic. It's always exciting. I can't say that every moment of every project has been that, but there are always these glimpses of wonder that come through the creative process that are staggering. And they're very addictive, you know, being in a room where something's not happening. and all of a sudden it's happening and you don't know why

and you don't know what changed. It's a very exciting feeling. How often do you experience that feeling? All the time. Really? All the time. Now, when I say all the time, we may start a project

that maybe doesn't happen for a few days, but then it starts happening. What is that moment? And what is the feeling that you have and what is it that you notice either in your mind or in the environment that is shifting for that feeling to occur?

it's an inner excitement it's like a leaning forward it's a curiosity of like can we hear that again what was that what was that i've not heard that before that's interesting to really absolutely so after four decades of doing this you still get surprised by hearing new things all the time really all the time Why does this work with this? Who knows? And if I were to tell you the idea, or if someone would have tell me the idea, I would listen to their words and think that's a terrible idea. And then we try it, and it's remarkable.

Wow. Can you give me an example of something that stands out for you? For maybe a well-known artist that people would know about, or maybe someone completely unknown? I can say something happened the other day where we recorded a song in a particular way with a particular instrument and it sounded really beautiful and then the artist said well let's try it uh i'm imagining it and they described uh something so different and in the description it sounded terrible the way they explained it the way they explained it or the references they gave me references of well if we do it like this band with this kind of a beat and the and i tried to imagine the same song

that we just recorded this different way, that way. And in my imagination, it did not sound good. And then I said, let's try it. And then they played it. And at first, it didn't sound good, but very quickly, it got great. And there's no way to know. There's no way to know.

You can't, that's a big part of it is, I see artists who get into arguments, like a band, who gets into an argument, let's do it this way, no, let's do it this way. And I'll always say, well, let's just play it both ways and listen, see. Let's see. Let's see what actually happens. Right. And that might spark something completely new. Absolutely. They both might suck. Absolutely. Let's try another way. Or they both might be great. And sometimes when they're both great, it's like, oh, maybe this is better for

the chorus than this other thing actually can work as a bridge. We weren't even looking for a bridge. Yeah. That's fascinating. In this documentary series about you and your facility and kind of your life. The Shangri-La. Shayla, yeah, powerful. I'm not all the way through it. I've done the first episode and a half. Someone in the first episode says, Rick helps people be the best version of you.

And I'm curious, who helps you become the best version of yourself? Probably, I would say now my family, you know, having a family. But also, I have some really hard driving friends. Like, you know, you met Leonard Hamilton. And someone like, if you have someone like Laird in your life, being around people like him make you better at being a human being. What's the biggest thing you struggle with today? I think that there are a lot of fun things to try and finding time to do all of the things possible,

the exciting things that I want to try. Right. Because how do you pick and choose the projects you work on? and the artists who work with, is it a, is it a feeling? Is it relationships you have with their managers? Is it, yeah, I want to try this new thing and let's bring them in. Is it? It usually starts with meeting the artist and just if there's a connection with the,

the human. And that's usually how it starts. How often is that happening? Because I'm assuming a lot of people want to work with you. So is it, you know, every Monday people will, you know, managers will send their artists to you and they'll have an interview process with you for an hour or two and then you'll get a vibe and see if you want to work with them. Is there a waiting list? How does that work? It honestly doesn't happen that often because I'm always in different parts of the world and I'm

not really part of the system. So if you were to go to, if you got signed to a record company and they showed you a list of all the producers to work with, I'm not on anybody's list. Interesting. So someone would have to seek me out outside of the normal system to find me. And then it either would wouldn't happen. Interesting. What do you see is the thing that holds people back the most from being their most creative and best self? I think it's being concerned what other people think and a feeling of that the people who make great things are somehow special and that they're not special and that's just not true. We're all, Everyone has the capability to make great things, and none of us are special.

It seems like a lot of people, they're focused on what other people think, like you said, and it blocks them into this kind of rut feeling, I guess, and they feel like they're stuck in a rut. I don't know if you've heard this before with a lot of your artists, but with me as a writer and an author, I've heard so many people come to me and say, I want to write a book. And I asked them, how long have you been, had this idea that you wanted to write this book about this thing. And some people will say five, seven, ten years, but they've been worried about

what people think or they feel creatively stuck in a rut. Do you ever feel stuck in a rut? And if so, how do you personally get out of that? I think taking action is a really great thing and not, not setting up barriers of entry. Like, I can imagine a musician saying, I can't play this song because I don't have the right guitar or I don't have the right equipment to do it. And there are no barriers to entry. There's always a way. I come from a punk rock background. So in punk rock, it was a do-it-yourself mentality.

And, you know, I started my first record company not knowing that was something you can do. It just really happened automatically. I wanted to start making records. I wanted people to hear them. I never knew that you could get signed to a label. I just thought, well, if you want to make a record, you make a record. So I made records. and, you know, print up 500 copies of a 7-inch single, for example.

So I think there's always a way, you don't have to wait for permission from someone else. I think that's a big part. People are waiting for permission. To actually make their art. To make their art. Someone has to say, you know, I'll hire you to do this, or I'll publish your book if you write a book or set the stage to allow you to do it. But I don't think that's the way great things are made.

When you printed those first 500 singles, what was your dream or your vision? Was it, okay, now I'm going to, how do I sell these? How am I going to give me away for free? What was the process for you? Combination of giving me away for free and selling enough to be able to make another one. That was always, any of the things I've made, it's always been about sustainability. As long as I can make another one, it's a success. But at this point, you know, you're,

sustainable pride for life, I'm assuming, with the success you've had. So you don't have to make something to try to make your money back, you know, or get your time back or whatever. So what is the vision now? I still think in those terms, though I want, I feel like I want to make it where it's sustainable by itself. There's something that feels good about that, that you make something that can live on not because of an endowment. Yeah, that's interesting. I don't know why. I don't know why that is, but that's just my,

and maybe it's just the way I was brought up. May it just be. What does an artist need to be thinking and feeling at the same time to create great art? I would say thinking is the least part of it. It's much more about feeling and being true to themselves, whatever that is. Feeling, feeling their truth. And how do you know when an artist is being truthful in front of you? It's a, it's just a feeling.

It's a feeling. I can feel it. Yeah. I think something that you said was, I have no skill set. It's all intuitive. It's not what's in my head. It comes through me. Yes.

So you're not analyzing or thinking about it. You're saying, huh, something doesn't feel right. It starts with a feeling always. It starts with a feeling. The analysis comes in. later to try to understand either the feeling if there's a reason like if I'm just feeling something I can experience it and be fine if we have to act on the feeling then it's like okay this feels like this can can I is there a way to figure out why sometimes you can sometimes

you can't and if you can figure out why or if you think you know why then you can say hmm could it be this this or this let's try those things see what happens do you have a process when you're starting the first session with an artist after you've been introduced and you're say, okay, let's do this, we're going to work together. Do you have a process where you set a personal intention that you don't tell them, but then also you tell them what the intention is for your time working together? I'll say when we're starting a new project, I always have anxiety. Really? Always. Because I don't know what's going to happen. You know, there's a real question mark when we walk in to start and I know that it could go a lot of different ways and I don't have

I'm not interested in having a playbook in advance I'm interested in seeing where it's going to go and it's scary because it could not go good and sometimes there's an ex you know some artists have an expectation that I'm going to do something I can't do anything you know right it's like It's either going to happen or it's not going to happen. So, but then usually within sometimes it's the first day, sometimes it's a third day, sometimes it's the second week where something happens like, whoa, what was that? How did that happen? And then that might give us a clue.

It's like, oh, this is what it wants to be. And that may change also. It may, that may be the first inclination. It could start that way and then it makes a left turn, turns into something completely different. The work itself tells us where it wants to go. go. So because we have, the reason it's so scary is because we have so little control over it. That's what's scary. There's no control. None. And if an artist has a big expectation,

I need to put out a record that's going to do well. I need to make money. I need to make the label happy, whatever it is. My fans need to love this. Then that could feel like a lot of pressure. But do you allow that pressure to affect you? No, because I know it's not in the interest of the work. It's like we're all on the same page. Even the, even the people were ignoring. the record companies, the managers, the agents, the people who are yelling, I need this, I need this now. Ultimately, for everyone involved, if the artist makes the best possible work that they can, everybody wins. It's just that no one involved in the process understands what it takes for that thing to happen. I had a conversation with a basketball player,

a member of the Golden State Warriors, who told me there's a... all this pressure now to do a lot of stuff on social media. And he said, and it's getting in the way of our playing. Interesting. And I said, well, if you tell the people who are asking you to do the social media stuff, don't you want us to win? So if you want us to win, let us focus on winning. And he said, they don't seem to care.

They want us to do the social media stuff. They want us to distract ourselves from the work of the game. From the flow, from the practice, putting in the reps, showing it. And then I say, well, if then it's up to you, what's more important to please them or to win? Man, this is fascinating. Was there, what was the experience for you where the artist or the band came in? And it was the fastest, best flowing process you've ever experienced where just everything was lining up. Authenticity, truth.

you know, raw realness was happening every, every day. And it was also, it was a great success for them personally to have the art be real and honest, but it also landed commercially and took off. The first thing it comes to mind would be Johnny Cash, because he had gone, you know, 25 years of not having success. And he had been dropped from two labels. And when I saw, him he didn't he didn't even know why I was interested that really was the conversation it's like what what do you think why do you think working with you is going to be any different than working with anyone else like he had given up and to for him to get into it we recorded in my living room and he would

just play me songs on an acoustic guitar and there was an honesty in what was happening there we didn't know that we were making a record at that time we were just looking for songs. So he was playing me songs. It was almost like a way for us to musically meet each other. He would play me the songs he loved, either from childhood or songs that he thinks he'd like to sing or a song he wrote. And it was just a very honest experience.

And then we went into the studio. We picked some of those songs. We went through hundreds of songs and then picked a handful to try to record. and when we went into the studio with the band, it didn't sound, it didn't have what the living room recordings had. There was some intimate honesty, and we'd never heard Johnny Cash that way before.

So that led to the first album, which was a solo acoustic album. Again, we didn't set out to make a solo acoustic album, but it revealed itself as that's the most interesting thing to do. And that ended up being very successful and very successful with young people, which he had not experienced since the 1950s. So that was a... And after that, after the success of that album, we made five more albums together, and he had confidence based on the experience of the first one,

which he'd expected nobody to care about, really... to cold with people. And then on, I think it was on our fourth or fifth album, he did a cover of Hurt, the Nine Inch Nail song, and that ended up being probably the biggest, you know, maybe the biggest hit of his life, certainly of his later life. Wow.

And that was a real revelation. How important is confidence for an artist in your mind to have? Because I've been around some of the greatest athletes that are freaks of nature athletically that are gifted beyond anything physically who can do anything in practice but then they lacked the confidence in the game and they looked like an average player.

Is that the same thing with artists, singers, guitar players, you know, musicians where they could be so gifted but if there's a time when the pressure is on to record that on the confidence, does that hold people back? Have you seen that? I'll say it's not as simple. is that? Because there's a vulnerability required for the artist that if you're confident to the

point that it disguises your vulnerability, that doesn't work. So it's like a dance between being wildly open and vulnerable and commitment to do whatever it takes to get your work through. combination which is a difficult combination it's almost like what I'm hearing you said this is really interesting point it's almost like you just have to have courage to be vulnerable which is not really confidence it's more of like you just got it if you're unwilling to be courageous with your vulnerability you just won't be able to share your art that's true there's I'll say though to get up in front of people and sing takes a certain amount of confidence yes it's just

part of the, it's a hard thing to do. I couldn't imagine doing it. That's true. A friend of mine, just Rachel Platten, she just, she wrote a song called Fight Song that was, you know, really popular over the last six or seven years. But she had, you know, she started a family over the last five years. So she got two, two young kids. And she just played up the Trubidor a couple nights ago. And I'd seen her play in the past where she was super confident, but she hadn't played in a while. And so she came out. And so she came out. She was like, guys, I'm actually really nervous. And this is my first time playing, you know, kind of with a man, with these new songs

and a while. And I'm revealing myself of these new songs. You know, you could sense this, you know, vulnerability, which was actually beautiful. Yes. It was like, we're rooting for her. You know, she messed up a few times, but she kept going. And she's like, hey, I'm going to restart this and thank you guys. You know, but it was like, wow.

And it had made moments of like awe and magic happen. Yes. It was so cool. Yes. And it's not about perfection. That's the thing. It's like humanity breathes in the mistakes. You know, in the, it's what, it's what's not ordinary.

If it was, if it was machine-like perfect, it's not so interesting. It's cookie cutter. Right. It's all the same. So it's the, it's the edges. It's the frayed edges that make it interesting. Talk about transcendence. you talk about manifestation in the universe.

I know you're a big meditator. How long have you been meditating for? I learned when I was 14, and it's been a big part of my life the whole time. I can't say I've done it continually, but I go through phases of five years on, two years off, or something might replace it that's another kind of a meditation. Like, I may go from a TM sitting meditation to learning Tai Chi and that Tai Chi will fill the slot of my TM time. Right. Transcendental meditation, yeah.

And I also read that you really've never been into drugs or alcohol. Is that correct? I've never been drunk or high in my life. Wow. And, you know, as an athlete playing football, college football and professional football, it was kind of shocking when people would hear that from me because the steroids. type is, you know, the dumb jock that just drinks into the cake stands. But I learned early on, I was telling you before that my brother went to prison when I was eight.

And when you go to a prison, a visiting room, every single weekend, then you realize quickly you don't want to go there. And a lot of guys were in there for drugs or, you know, doing bad things. And for me, I was just like, oh, I don't even want to try some of this stuff because I don't know where this might lead. So let me just eliminate this from my life. Now, I've had sips here and there, but I've never been drunk. How has cleansing your mind of drugs and alcohol, of not really diving into it, supported

you as an artist? And do you think drugs and alcohol can make artists be great? I can tell you that when I was going to high school, most of the kids that I knew would come home from school and get high. and the main reason was out of boredom. I'm just trying to fill time. And I never, I always feel like there's not enough time. Like there's so much I want to learn.

There's so much I want to read. There's so much I want to try that I'm not trying to turn off time. I'm interested in something different. Now, the idea of a hallucinatory experience sounds interesting to me, but I've not done it. You've never done psychedelics or anything. I've never done that either. I've always been, you know, I have a lot of friends that do it.

I'm sure you do as well. And I don't know, for whatever reason, it's never excited me to try. Yeah. Maybe in the future. Yeah, same. I feel like someday I will probably do it. Right. So have you been drunk or high?

I got drunk one time as part of a school assignment. What was the goal assignment? Well, what school is this? I went to Harvard for a summer between my junior and senior year of high school to start getting college credits. And I took a logic class and a design class and they had a Harvard bartending class. And I thought, that's really funny. Even as someone who doesn't drink, the idea of like having a degree in bartending from Harvard was funny. So I did it.

And I thought of it like chemistry. The idea of mixing things is interesting. Interesting. So only one time. Yeah, the final exam was you had a mix like 30 different drinks and then taste them to know what they taste like. And I got really drunk and it was a terrible experience. So you've never been drunk since then? No.

You've been high or? No. I went on my 40th birthday in Kauai. I prayed all day and I did a ceremony where I smoked some marijuana, the only time in my life. And I would say it had almost known. No effect. Almost no. So you might have felt a little buzz or something, but nothing.

I didn't feel a buzz. I would say that when I looked out into the landscape, there was more clarity between the foreground and background. That was one. And I remember we drove to dinner and I drove and driving felt more fun than usual, like playing a video. Sure, sure, sure. But you weren't really high or whatever.

That's fascinating. So never really drunk or high, except for a social experiment or, you know, a one-time trial thing. I don't think I've met many people who's never been drunk or high like me, so that's pretty interesting. Maybe that's the Pisces in us, you know, maybe it's the... Maybe. And you know, Pisces have a tendency to go the other way of everything else.

We are addictive people. Yes. Historically. Yes. That's why one of the things is I don't think if I would have gotten into alcohol or some type of drug, I think I would have become addicted. I would have been extreme with it. Yeah.

So I've tried to be extreme in more healthier ways. thing for myself. Now, the stereotype is, or the generalization is that a lot of artists smoke weed or do drugs or experiment with alcohol or do these different things. And they talk, you know, maybe this is my own perception of it. They talk about it in their creative process, right? It was high when I did this and it gave me all these creative ideas. How do you view that of when artists are working with you? Are they smoking? Are they drinking? Are they drinking? You you know, when they're with you, or do you try to help them eliminate that to clear their mind?

I want people to do what they want to do. I have no, um, no opinion. If, if I see someone doing something that's interfering with their work, I'll talk about it. Mm-hmm. But if it's not interfering with their work, that's their business.

Have you ever seen an artist that you knew had a history of alcohol or smoking marijuana or some type of drug that, when they worked with you they weren't they were clear of all drugs and substances and they were actually able to create something beautiful and magical well i saw the chili peppers go from a band that were very dysfunctional um on a lot of drugs which i didn't really know i just knew that when i met them the feeling in the room was when i didn't want to be around um and then i met them years later and they had gotten clean and I felt like it was a different group of people

and then we ended up making blood sugar sex magic which ended up being a very successful album for them and then I produced most of their albums since when they were clean and you know that's interesting do you think that people overall make better work as artists when they are clear minded without substances I think over the long term that's probably the case

but there are many great artists who use something like marijuana as a some people have told me that they can hear music in a different way. Again, I haven't experienced it, so I can't say, but some people have told me that they hear music in a different way when they smoke and they can access their creativity. So I think you have to do your own testing. Do you think it's better to make, I don't know, about better. is the right word, but do you think it's more impactful to make your art from a place of pain, anger, or sadness, or from a place of love, peace, and harmony?

I don't think it matters. I think it's true to your experience. So if you're feeling anger and sadness, a sad, angry song will probably be good. And if you're feeling love and peace, then you're in the right frequency to create that kind of song. Right. You can And also sometimes if you're in a real pain, you can write a yearning song for love that can be very deep. But one of the things about when you're in pain, you tap into things to, you're looking for, you're not satisfied in your condition, so you're yearning. for change. And sometimes the energy of yearning for change can lead to really beautiful music. Right. Wow. Is there someone that you're able to talk about or share that spoke and created from a place of yearning when they worked with you that later said it was an extremely

healing process for them, working with you for a few weeks on an album and expressing their diary in that way and allowed them to heal and have light. on the other side. The most recent one was I made an album, the last album of Kesha. And her, she had gone through very difficult experience. And she told me that it was a very healing experience working on the album and different than any experience she'd had previously where it was much more about commerce before. What's the most painful thing you've been through that you've had to heal and overcome?

Probably the biggest one was, you know, it was overweight most of my life. And it was just, I was not comfortable in my body. And I always felt like an outsider and felt like it limited what I could do. Really? Yeah. So I think probably weight was my biggest issue. What was the root behind that you think? I think it was mostly bad information.

my mom was obese so I thought it's just genetic and I tried everything I tried every every type of diet nothing worked and then eventually I found the the correct balance and you know it was a vegan for 23 years and I weighed 318 pounds as a vegan wow yeah you can be a sick of vegan or you can be able I was I was very sick as a vegan and I wasn't getting when I needed right and it's a it's a carb it's basically a carbohydrate diet yeah and you can have all the sugar you want being a vegan but that doesn't mean it's healthy for you as well so it's like what do you think was you know it sounded like you tried a lot of different things for 20 years but it didn't work

but you found the right combination but was there something you needed to mend or heal emotionally that allowed you to shift internally it was just information so it's always I was always willing to do it I would say probably the biggest maybe there is an aspect, which is I thought I knew what was best. So there was a sense of turning over control to someone else. That was a surrender. Wow. I saw a doctor at UCLA who a friend of mine recommended I go to. I knew it wasn't going to work because I had done everything and nothing worked. And he put me on a particular diet. And I remember thinking, it sounds terrible, and it's not going to work, but I'll, you know, I'll do what you say.

They had no belief. But I put my faith in him or I gave up faith, I gave up, but listened and committed to the process. And committed to the process. And the weight fell off. Really? How long did it take? Was it like a six-month-year process? Fourteen months and I lost $1.35 pounds.

Man, that's awesome. Congrats on that. Thank you very much. Wow. And when was this? 12 years ago, something like that? All of years ago. You look really healthy right now.

That sun tanned, you know, wherever you're at. I spent a lot of time in the sun. I'm a sun worshipper. Now, do you feel like when you were able to, I guess, get that support, see the changes physically, do something transform inside of you spiritually to be a better artist once that transformation started to happen? Or did you think you were still? making great art you know when you were a hundred pounds overweight would you say i think we were making

great art the whole time the differences between losing weight and then meeting layered and starting to train and get into my body because i was sedentary my whole life and just sitting all day sitting all day or laying down all day i like laying down more than sitting this is the longest I've been in a chair that I, since I've been on an airplane. With Laird, when I showed up to Lair's the first time, I couldn't do one push-up. Come on, swear to you, could not do one push-up. And with his support, I worked up to being able to do 100 consecutive push-ups, which was mind-blowing.

So what changed between the weight loss and meeting Laird, was, I now see anything as possible and that you could train for anything. There's nothing you can't do. You can't be the best in the world at something, but you can be a lot better than you are at anything you want to put the time into learning, whatever it is. You could do anything, and that's a great inspiring feeling, and I feel like I bring that into the art where I already had great confidence, but even more so, I now know anything is possible at any time.

Wow. Just if you have to do the work. So this was 12 years ago when this started to happen, right? And so if I got my wrath right, are you 60 right now? Yeah, I just turned 60. Just turned 60 in March. I just turned 40. If you could go back to your 40-year-old self, what would the number one piece of advice be for

you at 40. If you can think about where you were then, who you were working with, the projects you were working on, the people in your life, knowing what you went through the last 20 years, what would you tell yourself then? I would always say just have as much fun as possible because I'm a workaholic by nature and I love making things and I love making good things and a great deal of time and effort goes into that. And I'm hard on myself in that. And I'm hard on myself in that way and that I have high expectations. And I think we can have fun too. Yeah, of course.

Yeah. What brings you the most joy? I think probably quality time in nature with my family. That's probably the best. Being in a beautiful place, being close to my family, breathing fresh air, walking on the beach, laughing together. reading together, watching movies together, you know, watching wrestling.

You know, I like pro wrestling with my son. It's fun. That's great. Are you more of a wrestling fan or are UFC now? Always been pro wrestling. UFC feels like they might hurt each other. They do hurt each other. That's why I like wrestling.

It's like it's more, uh, everybody's on the same side for it to be the best show. It would be a win-win. Yeah. It's a win-win. Yeah, you talked about that and, you know, this documentary series about, You know, I love the video of you being like the ultimate promoter with the B.C. boys in a commercial like just being this hype man promoter. Like, you know, how much has, I guess, pro wrestling influenced you as an artist? A lot. A lot. Because it's a world where you never really know what's true. It's a world of mystery.

and great skill is involved in what they're doing and there's a story and it's a story sometimes of people who seem to hate each other do they hate each other they might be best friends you know it's like we don't know but sometimes they really do hate each other and then the matches are different when they really hate each other but you never know when it is so there's this there's a sense of and I think it's more honest than any other form of any other sport or any other form of entertainment. See, it's funny. I say it's the only legitimate sport is pro wrestling.

Because it's the most like the world. In the world, we don't really know what's true. Everybody has a facade. People put on airs or a performance. A mask. Yeah, or the politician talks, and we don't really know who they are. They say these things that are often written for them.

We don't know. So there's this like performance. formative aspect of the world that wrestling, that's what the world's really like. We say that wrestling is fake. It's like the world is fake and wrestling is real. That's what it is. I wanted to go back into what you talked about. You mentioned transcendence.

And I think you mentioned, you know, the universe having your back when you asked for an answer with this, you know, particular song with System of Down. What's your thoughts on manifesting and manifesting something you want and alchemizing it into the world? Do you believe in manifesting? Do you believe in an, you know, artists should be thinking in that way? Or what's your thoughts on it? I believe in it a million percent. It's something that I've experienced before I knew what it was.

So I share. So when I say it's like, I feel like it has to do with the purity of the intention behind what you're doing. If your intention is pure and you're doing it for the right reasons, it seems like things tend to work out. And that ends up being a manifestation mindset. But it didn't start for me that way. It just was like, I really believe in what I'm doing. really care about it, I want to be the best it could be for me and I'm excited to share it. And the results have shown me that you can manifest things. It happens. But I'll say

when I do it, it's never based on that outcome. Ooh, what do you mean? I'm never asking for a result. What are you asking for? I'm asking for to rise to the occasion to make the best thing that I can for the thing that I make to be great. Great is a vague word. I don't know what great means. I came to realize recently what great means, but I didn't know most of my life I was aiming for great, but I didn't know what that was. And I've come to realize that great means it's a devotional, it's a devotional kind of greatness. It's a gift to the universe. It's a gift to God. Wow. If you're making, if you're making a gift to God, There's no greater, you can't put more into it than that.

You know, you can't, what about the single? What about what about what about what about what someone's going to say? Who has anything to say if we're making a gift for God that there's, you're putting all of your purest intention into this thing for the universe. Wow. That's where it's at. I didn't know that. I came to realize that recently.

Again, my word was greatness. greatness. That was the word of what I was shooting for. But I've come to realize what it is. Wow. You have a whole kind of section about greatness and success in the creative act, a way of being, which is, which I loved your explanation in there. That is fascinating. So greatness for you, what I'm hearing you say is a, is a pure gift of yours to God. Yes. And it's a gift of yourself to God. It's like this is the best. I can do. This is my offering.

This is what I have to offer. If you think of a formula for manifesting as an artist, what would that formula be? I don't think there's a formula. Is there an art to manifesting? I don't know. I think it sounds like a shortcut, and I don't think there are shortcuts. I think it's always a, uh, a version of doing the work, of finding your way into what it is that the universe wants you

to do and then really dedicating yourself. How do you know what the universe wants you to do and when to do it, the right timing? Because you could be like, I have this idea for this thing, maybe it's the right time now, maybe it's five, ten years away from now. How do we really tap into that knowing? I think it's situational, and I think, again, if you're tapped into the universe, it tells you, it, it directs you. An example, I may have three different ideas that I'm excited about, and I kind of get them all going. And then one of them just seems to take off on its own.

And one of them, no matter how hard I work on it, it never seems to come together. Can't find the right collaborators, impossible. some obstacles in the way. When that happens, I feel like it's the universe saying now is not the time. Interesting. Because, you know, I love this. And I also hear the other side of the, I guess the coin where, you know, I don't know if you know Ryan Holiday, which the obstacle is the way is his kind of stoic philosophy of like

when the obstacle is there and presents itself. And you also feel like this is. something you want to do. You've got to kind of go through that pain and that, you know, to overcome it. That is part of it. I'm not saying to turn away from the obstacle, but I'm saying when the obstacles become insurmountable consistently, and there's another path that's going smoothly, and you feel the same about both of them. You know, I... Go over the effortless way, yeah. Well, pay attention. See when is the universe giving you a push. When is the wind hitting your sales the right way there's something to it I'm I'm I would never suggest not

fighting through the work it's it's it's grueling no matter what it's grueling no matter what that said sometimes it feels like now's not the time uh huh yeah it's like all everything you throw at it gets deflected right but this other thing is guiding you taking on its own life. Earlier, you asked about what I perceived to be a shortcut. And a shortcut is how little can I get away with doing? And I think that the real question is, how much more can I give to the thing I'm making? What else can I give to it?

And thinking in terms of how much more can. we do not how much less can we do it's not about shortcuts it's not about getting it done you know it's not about a four-hour work week i loved you know i loved it but that's not it's like whatever it takes for it to be all it could be um commitment and total commitment and dedicating your life to making the best things you can whatever it is yeah That's beautiful, man. So you think that as an artist, we should be thinking about manifesting, but not in the terms of doing less, but putting the maximum into making it great. Doing anything that's within our power, if it doesn't have to make sense.

Nothing has to make sense. You know, it could be what I wear these purple socks. I can write a better song. Great. Doesn't matter. Don't question it. Just do whatever works. Do it.

Is it really art if you're making money off of it? Absolutely. It doesn't matter. It's not about the outcome. That's what I'm saying. If you don't make money or if you do make money, that has nothing to do with the art. Art is the art and then whatever happens after happens after.

If you make something that you love, I know if I make something I love if more people like it that's only a good thing now I wouldn't change a word of it for someone else to like it do you know what I'm saying

it's like I make the thing I love and then present it to the world and then if the world likes it great and if more people like it than less better why not we're sharing something we love something we is beautiful. Yeah. So the more people who embrace it. But again, I would never change it for

anyone else because that's not what it's about. It's not about that. With the artists you've worked with that you knew before they were global successes or their art, their music or, you know, was known by many. What did you see became their biggest challenge once they became extremely successful because a lot of artists, I would think, want their art to be light and listen to by people. They want to make a living. And more people like it. Typically, that's a good thing, typically. But sometimes we see artists who have this incredible rise of success and then seem to struggle with whatever, depression, anxiety, maybe the pressure. Can I do this again? Will I be able to have these many hits again. What is the biggest challenge you see with artists becoming successful?

Probably the biggest one is nobody prepares you for success and you may have a dream of what it's like and you may think the success is going to fill some hole you have in your soul. And then the success and you work your whole life for this success that's going to fill the hole and finally you get the success and the whole's the same and it's it creates hopelessness wow because you always you're working towards this goal that's going to fix the problem but it's the goal doesn't fix the problem it i would say i can't i can't i can't say never but i would almost never fixes the problem. What fixes the problem for people?

It's something else. It's something inside themselves. It's something inside themselves. So do you think success can almost hurt someone more than before they have it after they have it? It just depends on the person's temperament. You know, for some people, being famous is the greatest thing is all they ever wanted. and for some people they become famous and it's the worst nightmare that's not what they wanted

they miss their privacy they miss their anonymity they miss being able to go and do whatever they want and not be singled out or pointed to or uh talk to or even if people are nice like it's a different it's different um and no one teaches you how to do that or you want to you know go do something with your family and then there are photographers there and it's it's very uh awkward what a what advice do you have for people that want to be famous you know success is one thing but fame is another thing and they don't always happen together for someone that wants to be famous what advice would you have for them i don't know i would say i would look at why that is i would maybe see you know consider therapy right have you ever done therapy yourself i've done yeah i've done all

kinds of therapy. What has been the biggest lesson you learned through therapy for you? I learned how to express my feelings clearly. Like when I, the first time I went to therapy, I didn't even know how to talk. I didn't know how I felt about anything. How old were you then? Maybe 26. So you learned how to express your feelings then. Yes. And to not only yes, express them, but also to actually, you know, feel them in myself, to understand, not just feel like blocked off or frustrated or like what's beneath it, what's actually going on. And what is the biggest lessons that meditation or meditation practices has provided for you? It provides a quiet space where the chatter, you realize that your thoughts are not you.

And that left your own devices, they'll be a lot of voices in your head, just going all the time. And they're not you. And they don't mean anything. And they're really repetitious. They're not working in your best interest. So if your thoughts on you, then what are you? I suppose you are the unchanging part of yourself that's always there from probably from the time you're born until the time you die and maybe before and after it's the it's what's really inside it's not um it's not changeable it's what you came with it's not the it's not the uh the thinking mind it's almost being the observer of the thoughts the one who sees the thoughts that sounds right yeah observing good thank you yeah that's what

i was hearing you say um when do you feel the most loved rick i would say in general i feel loved it's an it's a good feeling like i feel um i feel spiritually connected And that gives me a great feeling of peace. Where do you think you'd be in your life if you weren't a meditator? And where do you think you'd be if you allowed yourself to play with drugs and alcohol? Yeah, I can't really predict. I would say meditation, without meditation, I don't know who I would be. It's such a big part of who I am.

uh informed so many everything every my my understanding of the world is based on learning to meditate when i was young so i don't know who i would be without that do you think you would have as much internal harmony and peace and external success without meditation no certainly not internal peace i don't know about success before i wanted to ask you a question about comparison uh You know, you mentioned the NBA basketball player needing to post more on social media based on what their team or the coaches or maybe not the coaches, but maybe the general managers wanted them to do. With artists, I see a lot of people competing and being in comparison versus just sharing their truths in an authentic way. And sometimes on social media, people are vulnerable because it gets attention and then they're over vulnerable. And then that becomes a game in itself, but in a world where everything is oversaturated

seeming, and there is a lot of competition for attention, how can an artist stay true to their inner voice and not be in comparison, but be willing to collaborate and also see success and others and be okay with it? Yeah, I think staying out of it, you know, like not participating in that game. That's someone else's game. That's someone else's game. I would suggest play your own game. I can remember having a conversation with one of the biggest artists in the world who described an album that they were going to make. And I had just seen them play in a stadium full of people screaming and crying. And it was not Paul McCartney. And the album that they were describing was one that none of those 70,000 people screaming and crying wanted to hear.

It was clear to me. And I remember saying, that's not your hand. Like, you play, when you're playing poker, it's not, you can't just play any cards. You play the, you play your hand based on the cards you've been dealt. So depending on the artist you are, like um it'd be like there was a time i think when metallica felt like we don't really want to be a heavy metal band we want to be a pop band because pop bands were what's popular and we have reached a ceiling being a heavy metal band that did not go well that was a bad idea they weren't playing

their hand they weren't they weren't embracing metallica oh and i think if you embrace your part It's your best chance being true to yourself, not seeing, oh, well, those people over there are getting popular doing this other thing. I don't really like it, but it's really working for them. Maybe I could try that recipe for disaster. So don't chase something that's not your hand. No. But it sounds like, correct me if I'm wrong, you know, the example I'm thinking of is like

Lady Gaga came onto the scene doing, I guess, pop music and became very popular. said, hey, I want to do this more kind of jazzy, bluesy, like Tony Bennett thing. She was being true to herself. And that's what I want to do. And I don't care if anyone likes it. Perfect. But it's what I want to do with this season of my life. True to herself.

And it may lose money. But she was not doing it because I think people like this. Right. This is working over here. So I'm going to try to catch their heat. She was not doing that. She probably knew people wouldn't like it. Only a small audience.

She didn't care. Yeah. She didn't care. She was true to herself. This is what she wanted to do, and she did it. Wow. Were you in touch with her all during that season? I can't remember if we talked about that time.

I'm curious, but I'm curious if she's just said, hey, I'm going to do this and this is my thing. For sure. That's pretty cool. Yeah, yeah. No, I love it when an artist does something unexpected, whether it works or not. You know, it's like they're being true to themselves. Right. They get to be a better artist doing that.

Whereas the other example is someone, you know, whether it's Metallica, or whoever is like chasing a bigger audience or something. Now, if that's true to them, that music, then cool, there's an audience there, go for it. Absolutely, yeah. But it's also something about staying true to yourself in terms of if you come up making a certain kind of music and you get popular making that music, a feeling of, well, this is all anybody wants from me. So even though I don't care about it anymore, I have to keep doing it, that's a disaster.

as well. Right. That doesn't work. Who has been the most musically gifted artist that you've been able to work with? Or maybe a few people that you're just like, they were so musically, like, talented and gifted. It was just... There have been a lot. Yeah.

And there have been a lot. I can say the first time I was in the studio with Carlos Santana and he started playing guitar, it felt like this is coming from another planet. Or John Frischanti, when he plays from the guitarist in the Red Hot Chili Peppers, when he plays guitar, it's a transcendent experience. Spiritual. Yeah. And there's a drummer named Chris Dave, who's best drummer I've ever heard.

And no matter what he plays, anything he plays is the greatest thing you've ever heard, the simplest thing. He can make anything interesting just the way he plays it. Not the parts. It doesn't have to be complicated. It doesn't have to be, look at me. Just the touch, the feel, the tone is miraculous. Something you said before is the only goal is to be the best version of ourselves.

Is there anything blocking you from becoming the best version of yourself moving forward? I don't think so. Yeah, I wouldn't say I'm there. Right. But I'm always striving. Always. Anything I can do to get closer, I'll do. Wow.

Yeah, you're willing to learn something new. You're willing to try something on. Or change anything. Right. What do you think is the best habits that an artist can have that maybe you have individually, but also that you see in other artists? I would say dedication to the craft, whatever their craft is, dedicating themselves to it, taking it very seriously,

and being free to play in it. You know, like taking it seriously at the time when, it warrants being taken seriously and having fun and being free in a play way to allow the thing that's worthy of being taken seriously to appear right taking it seriously and also allow yourself to play in it as well yeah well the play always is where it starts it starts in this playful way where nothing is serious and there are no stakes and then through that something appears and then in order to get that into condition to share there's a grueling effort yeah take that seriously and sometimes it's sometimes you do a grueling effort and then you realize

oh that thing that happened the first day that's the best version of it but you don't know that until you've maybe banged your head against a wall for six months working on it and then you realize you know what that first five minutes was the best that was it you can't know that until you go past, you know, you have to work past it to see this was the one. This is the best version. How often is it the first version is usually the best for you? I'll say the first version is often, if it's not the best, it's very instructive and holds a magic in it that is to be retained no matter what else changes.

You know, a big part of it is just not screwing up what's good. It's not messing it up. No, there are all these stories of, you know, the demos being better than the album. It's easy to not know why something is good. You know, you make a demo and you think, okay, now when I get the professional musicians to play it, it's going to be great. It's going to be that much better. Maybe yes, maybe no.

We don't know. We never know. We never know what's going to happen when we do anything. Yeah. So to stay neutral and to keep every iteration along the way and be willing to look back after you just spent months refining something to then say, you know what, it was better three months ago. Throw that all the way. Wow. The creative act, a way of being. This is a powerful book. I think it's been on the New York Times best sell list for 42 plus weeks in a row, I believe,

right now. This has been a game changer for so many different creatives, artists, and also people that don't think they're artists who have been buying this and tapping into their creativity, allowing themselves to express themselves more fully, more open, more freely, more honestly and vulnerably. And I want to recommend this to anyone watching or listening to get a copy or two and give one to a friend. Really think about who in your life do you know has great talent, great artistry, or untapped talent that they should be expressing that more and giving that gift to God and to the universe, as you say so beautifully. Again, think about who in your life needs this book. There's so many great, the thing I love about it is it's, you know, it's a bigger book,

but every chapter is short. You know, and for me, I like short bits of wisdom that I can just open up at any time and read a few paragraphs and I've got something great. Open it randomly and read something. Let's see who comes up. This is the first thing here. I don't even have this earmarked, but I've got a lot of an earmarked. This says, in the end, the sum total.

of the essence of our individual works may serve as a reflection. The closer we get to the true essence of each work, the sooner they will somehow at some point in time provide clues as to our own. That was the first thing that opened up for me. That's cool. It's page 245, so make sure you guys check that out. But I love the whole section on, you've got sections on greatness, you've got a success, you got about listening, you know,

Inspiration. You talk about inspiration. It appears in a moment. And what defines inspiration is the quality and quantity of the download at a speed so instantaneous. It seems impossible to process. Inspiration is the rocket fuel powering our work. It is a universal conversation we yearn to be a part of. And I think that's really cool. Because so many of us are chasing inspiration, but a lot of times it comes. to us right it comes and it and it's almost like getting out of the way and allowing for it to come in that's why i love in the docu series that you're a part of shangri lads like you you have an intentional energy of your environment you create a space for it to come and i think that's really cool and a lot of people aren't i think thinking about their environments of spatial surroundings their environment of people surroundings their environment of what they consume of music or visual content or what they're reading, they're not intentional with it as much as I think they could be, which you're extremely intentional to allow for inspiration to come.

Isn't that right? Yeah, we're all, um, all we are is made up of everything we take in. So the places we're in, the people were around, the media we consume, that's all we are. So really curate what comes in for your highest, for your highest good. Yeah. And in the Shangri-La, the docu series, you know, in your recording studio and in your facility, it's all white, you know, there's no TVs, there's no clocks, the floor is white, the walls are white, you have this space that is kind of like this void, you know,

and I think of meditation, I really try to think about being no one, no, no where, no time, so that inspiration can come to me, as opposed to having the noise constantly distracting me or influencing me to think something. And so you create a white, blank canvas for people to express and develop their art. And I think it's really beautiful. I mean, you guys paint the floors, like after someone comes in, does their work, you repaint the floor so that it's not dirty from the last artists of the past. You create a blank canvas every time an artist comes in, which is just so cool to think about.

And I love the intentionality behind how you allow for space to be evolved for people to draw inspiration. It's really, really cool. I want people to watch that docu series called the Shangri-Law, but also, again, get a copy of this book, The Creative Act, A Way of Being. I've got three final questions for you, Rick. And again, I'm so grateful for your time here and for showing up and just being, being an inspiration to so many people, and specifically in this interview right now. This is a question I ask everyone towards the end of our conversations. It's called the three truths.

So it's a hypothetical question and scenario. Imagine you get to, you know, Laird and Gabby continue to keep you fit and healthy, and you get to extend your life as long as you want to be. But eventually it's the last day. You can live as long as you want, but it's the last day for you in the future. and you get to create and learn and experience all the things you want to experience from now at 60 to till that moment. But for whatever reason, it's your last day and you have to take everything with you, everything you've created, everything you've worked on, everything you've written, everything you've spoken. We don't have access to it in this world anymore, hypothetical scenario.

But you get to leave behind three lessons, and this is all we would have to remember your information by. And I call it the three truths. What would be those three truths for you that you would leave behind? I think it might just be one. It might just be true to yourself. Know yourself as best as you can to be true to who you are. And allow that person to evolve and change as the conditions change. and to not be inflexible.

I love that. I want to acknowledge you, Rick, for, I mean, putting this out there, I heard you talk about being kind of like a grueling process and some challenges here, there, some friction, some obstacles to get it out there. It wasn't like this effortless thing. And I'm assuming it might have been harder than an album, putting an album out there. I want to acknowledge you for sharing your gifts,

with the universe and with all of us, sharing your greatness with so many people because you have a lifetime of wisdom and information and lessons and to put it together in this way so that we can understand it is really powerful. So I acknowledge you for creating this work of art for coming on the show and talking so openly and honestly the way you have been. And I've seen you on a lot of my friends shows as well. And for being an inspiration to so many people. People value you, they appreciate you, they respect you, and I hope you feel the love from so many people and I just want to acknowledge you personally for that. This question, you kind of answered it already, but I'm going to ask you again and see what comes up for you. What is your definition

of greatness? Greatness is what you make in a devotional act for a higher power. beyond any worldly ideas of success. I hope today's episode inspired you on your journey forward's greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a rundown of today's show with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes

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