The School of Greatness - Simon Sinek: Why FRIENDSHIP Is The Key To Your Abundance & Success

Episode Date: April 23, 2025

Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy!I am so excited to welcome back Simon Sinek who, renowned for his groundbreaking "Start With WHY" concept, reveals how modern capitalism has sacrificed ethics for profit in our increasingly binary world. He shares a raw moment about continuing a business relationship with someone his gut warned him against, costing him years of regret. Simon explains why we crave connection yet sacrifice friendships for success, and breaks down how our biology drives us to serve others—not just chase achievements. His practical conflict resolution strategies offer a refreshing alternative to our culture of comparison, showing how leaders can rebuild trust by protecting their people rather than their bonuses.Simon Sinek’s Optimism CompanySimon’s podcast A Bit of OptimismSimon’s book Start with Why 15th Anniversary Edition: How Great Leaders Inspire Everyone to Take ActionSimon’s book Leaders Eat Last: Why Some Teams Pull Together and Others Don'tSimon’s book The Infinite GameIn this episode you will learn:Why competition drives innovation but succeeding at others' expense destroys societyHow modern capitalism broke when companies prioritized shareholders over customers and employeesThe biological reason service to others delivers more lasting happiness than personal achievementA proven conflict resolution method: respond to emotions with emotions, facts with factsWhy lasting success comes from articulating a vision that extends beyond your lifetimeFor more information go to https://www.lewishowes.com/1762For more Greatness text PODCAST to [phone]More SOG episodes we think you’ll love:Muniba Mazari – greatness.lnk.to/1684SCMark Manson  – greatness.lnk.to/1750SCMel Robbins – greatness.lnk.to/1761SC Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy!Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

If you're feeling any frustration, any sadness, any overwhelm, depression, if you're feeling like just, ah, I'm not catching the break. I'm getting sick all the time. I'm not creating the financial opportunities I want. I feel like people are using and abusing me. If this is part of your narrative right now and your reality, then I want you to know that in today's episode, we are diving into a topic on how to really create more fulfillment and happiness in your life. I'm bringing on Simon Sinek today, who's one of today's most influential thought leaders, and we're talking about perspective and how obviously comparison

is the thief of joy and social media creates a lot of comparison, feeling like we're not enough, but how lasting happiness comes from contribution rather than achievement and why friendship might be the most valuable asset that we're sacrificing in our pursuit of success. And let me tell you something. I have accomplished a lot in my life and I'm grateful for my accomplishments. But for part of this time, uh, in my teens and my twenties, when I was accomplishing,

I was not happy because I was pursuing something to try to be seen, to try to be accepted, to try to fulfill some wounds and mend something from my past and never felt good. It felt momentarily like exciting, but at the end of the day, I went back into sadness and suffering and kind of frustration and overwhelm and all that stuff. And so we need to be thinking about how can we truly create lasting happiness, lasting joy, and that comes from contribution rather than achievement. Now, let me say this. I love accomplishments.

I love achievements. It's fun for me. You know, my new book just came out, make money easy, and it hit the New York times bestseller list. And I was like, Excited about it and I was like, excited about it. I was like, that's awesome. Cause we put a lot of work into putting it out there and creating the work. And I like accomplishing things.

It's a nice validation, but here's the thing I have gotten to the place where sure, maybe I would have been let down had I not accomplished the goal I set out to. But the thing that I'm focused on more is how can I contribute to as many people as possible in the pursuit of the goal in the pursuit of the dream. And if you can match contribution with the collective effort of the pursuit of goals, dreams and accomplishments. And if you get both then amazing. But if you don't get the goal, if you don't get the dream, if it doesn't happen, the thing you really want, if you get both, then amazing. But if you don't get the goal, if you don't get the dream, if it doesn't happen, the thing you

really want, if you don't make the certain amount of money that you want that year, whatever it is, but you're making a difference to a few people, you're contributing to someone's life. That's way more meaningful than accomplishment and feeling like it's not enough accomplishment and success and feeling like you don't really have deep meaningful relationships. So this is something we're going to be diving into and so much more. And I hope that this is coming to you at the exact right time in your life.

And if it is, feel free to let me know and share this with one or two friends that you think would benefit from this conversation with myself and Simon Sinek and make sure to follow over on Apple podcast, over on Spotify and leave us a review on one of those platforms as well with your biggest takeaway or your biggest aha moment. I love reading your reviews and all of your feedback over there. And I'm very excited about today's guests.

So let's go ahead and dive in with Simon Sinek. It seems like the biggest sacrifice most humans are making today is a sacrifice of not having friends for success, for career, for greatness, for whatever it is, people pursuing something so passionately for writing their books, for creating their business, whatever it might be. It's like, well, I'm going to commit for this decade or two decades to being the best I can be. Yeah. At the sacrifice of friends. And at the sacrifice of friends.

All right. Well, that one's different because that, not a single person, when they achieve the thing that they achieve, will ever, ever, ever say that was worth it. None. Zero. I've talked to so many people who decided grades, career, money. I don't need friends, I just need people who can help me achieve my goals. And the result is loneliness.

Yes. I mean, look at, you know this as an athlete, right? Look at Olympic, look at Olympians, right? Especially individual sports, individual athletes. Team sports, they don't really, it's not really the same thing, which is they have a dream when they're fairly young and their dream is to, and you know how they put it, win the Olympics, nobody wins the Olympics, right?

That's how they, I'm gonna win the Olympics, right? And every relationship they have is, can you help me? Are you gonna help me? And individual athletes, tennis players, I mean, they're very similar. Every relationship they have is, are you going to benefit my dream? And if not, then I have no space for you. And they don't really have friendships.

They have transactional relationships, coaches, supports, trainers, you know, a supportive parent, you know? And some of them will get to the Olympics and some of them might even medal. Um, and when it's time to retire, what they achieve is loneliness. Michael Phelps becomes the most medaled Olympian of all in history. What's the immediate result? Depression. Depression.

Andre Agassi becomes the most celebrated tennis player of all time. What's the immediate result? Loneliness, depression. And none of them will look back and say, oh my God, I think that was worth it. The thing you're celebrated for is fleeting. You'll be forgotten, you'll be replaced. Someone else will. There'll be a new, upcoming.

You know, I was walking down Avenue of the Stars here in California, here in Los Angeles, and I was reading the names of the Stars here in California, here in Los Angeles, and I was reading the names of some of these movie stars. I'd never heard of them. Maybe there's two or three of them. 40 years ago, 30 years ago, whatever they were, right? 50 years ago, whatever they were,

these were the Ryan Reynolds of the day. I had never heard of any of them. Steven Spielberg, there's some director, no, I'd never heard of them, right? Steven Spielberg, there's some director. No, I'd never heard of him. These were the most famous people of their time, and I had no clue who they were. Every single celebrity, my niece doesn't know who Arnold Schwarzenegger is. Why should she?

Right. Right? The only reason my nephew knows who he is is because I made him watch Terminator. And the only reason my nephew knows who he is is because I made him watch Terminator. And so I think we forget that fame is fleeting and we will all be replaced by somebody else who will have the job after us. You and I both know this. I'm fully aware that my books are out there, my ideas are out there, and somebody else will have an idea and it will replace my are out there, and somebody else will have

an idea and it'll replace my idea just like I replace somebody else's. This is all borrowed time. Then why do so many people want to be rich and famous? What is missing within them that they want success, fame, or wealth, or to be known so badly? Well, I think we've over-indexed on that. You know, uh... Uh... We can't ignore...

We can't ignore social media. We cannot ignore, you know, prior to social media, you know, only a small percentage of people listening to this will know what I'm talking about. We used to watch lifestyles of the rich and famous with Robin Leach. Yeah, yeah. You know, Champagne Dreams and what is it?

Oh, yeah. Caviar Dreams and Champ, whatever it was. MTV Cribs was like my favorite. MTV Cribs. And we, you know, we watch television of rich and famous people and it was, I mean, it's amazing. Like we, it is, there is an aspirational nature to it. And I'm sure back in the day, we looked at the carriages that went by of the princes

and you know, jukes and went, oh, one day, you know, I'm sure it's aspirational. And I think in healthy doses is nothing wrong with it. Yeah. You know, this is the magical thing about a lottery, you know, for $1, you can have a dream for an entire week, right? You spend $1 and you are already dreaming about how you're going to spend the money and then you don't win, of course, and you're not upset about it. It's not like you spent the money already. It's just a dream, you just paid for the dream. And it's, you know, if you're gonna spend a dollar,

it's different than being addicted to the lottery. That's different. That's like betting the farm, hoping, like that that's your like actual retirement plan. Like that's unhealthy, that's different. But if you spend a dollar every now and then, a couple bucks every now and then, just for the fantasy, I think it's very healthy.

I think it's fine. And it's to your point about intention. But I think what has happened in our society is fame and fortune used to come as a result of doing something else. It was the unintended byproduct. Like I discovered radiation. Oh, Marie Curie, you're so famous, right? Or I did this amazing painting.

Oh, Picasso, you're so famous, so rich, right? That fame and fortune came as a result of plying a trade or contributing to something bigger than yourself. And now fame and fortune are the currency. Like people crave fame and fortune without doing anything. And they're looking for a hack. They're looking for a trick to gain the system to get the fame and the fortune without actually contributing to the lives of others

in any shape or form. What's the price people pay who get famous without contribution beyond fame? Loneliness, dissatisfaction. I recently spoke to Vivek Murthy, who's the Surgeon General of the United States. And he was an A-type personality kid who was driven by grades. I'm going to get As, I'm going to get As, I'm going to perform, I'm going to perform at the Sacrifice of Friends, just like we talked about, right?

School is number one. And at the age of 17, I don't remember the circumstances, but he had to do some sort of like do-good program. Maybe school required it, maybe he needed to do it for his college application, who knows, right? I'm sure it was not out of altruism. And he set up sort of an AIDS education, peer to peer AIDS education program in India, right? And he said it was the most powerful thing he ever felt. He'd never felt

anything like it. Really? Why? The idea of contributing to the lives of others, service, service. And he spent years trying to recreate that feeling, not knowing how to get that feeling again. No amount of commercial success, grade success. He went to medical school getting the best residency. None of the traditional trappings gave him the feeling that he had when he got to give something to somebody else. Wow. I think we forget that we are a legacy animal in a modern world.

Like we were a very outdated animal. This machine is tens of thousands of years old and it's had no OS upgrades ever, ever, right? And yet the world is super modern and our systems are really archaic and antique and old fashioned. And so you have to understand the way the human being is designed is we're designed to look after each other. You know, like everybody talks about dopamine, you know, the dopamine hit. Well, dopamine is in your system for a simple reason.

Okay. If we go back to caveman times, it's to make sure that you eat and to make sure that you find shelter. Right. So, uh, you see the apple tree in the distance, you get a little shot of dopamine says, that's the thing you want. Go get it. And as you get closer to the thing you want, you measure the steps and the progress.

And in this case, the tree gets a little bigger because you're getting a little closer. It gets another shot of dopamine that says, keep going, keep going. It feels so good. And then finally you kill the animal, you get to the berry tree, whatever it is, you catch the first, you're like, yes, right? Win the game. Yes. You know, like when you're training and you can see, you can, you want that, you want

that win and you get closer and closer and closer and then you win, you get the fish, you get the thing, you get the thing you wanted. And the feeling goes away. Like do you remember that incredible feeling you had when you won that tournament? Okay. Yeah. That feeling is gone. Gone. That feeling is gone. That feeling that you had that day...

It's a memory. Gone. It's a memory. You can recall... But the feeling is gone. And on purpose. Dopamine doesn't survive because dopamine wants you to keep going to get the things you want. Right?

So, dopamine is the feeling you get when you achieve the thing you want to achieve or find the thing you're looking for. That's why love at first sight is not a thing. So, you know, it's like, oh, we went on our first date and I'm telling you it was love. I'm like, no, it's dopamine. Because you're like, you dreamed of a person, you projected that dream on this person. You're like, you are the one. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, just a vision. So it's the wrong feeling.

That's just dopamine. Endorphins, endorphins don't really have a role in survival anymore. They used to be, endorphins are, they're a chemical that mask physical pain. So when you're out hiking, looking for food or you kill the leopard, now you need to carry it back and your muscles hurt and it's heavy. Well, endorphins keep you going and they literally mask physical pain. That's what they do. It's a survival thing.

We have no survival need for endorphins anymore. We just go to the supermarket. But everybody who's done exercise knows what an endorphin rush is and it feels amazing and you feel like you can keep running forever and this is the best, oh my God, this is the best. And then a few hours later, you're in pain. The pain comes just later. Yes.

So the difference is, but then you have, but endorphins and dopamine are selfish. You don't need anybody's help to get them. Set your goals, achieve your goals, go for a run, do heavy exercise. You don't need anybody's help. They're antisocial or unsocial, right? So when we pursue dopamine, dopamine, dopamine, dopamine, we don't actually need anybody.

That's why we have oxytocin and serotonin. That's where you need someone else. Those are pro-social. When they fire for good reasons and bad reasons in this modern day and age, Sure. But when they're done for the right reasons, it's pro-social. So when you go see your son or daughter graduate, your son and daughter walking across the stage

receiving their diploma, pouring with serotonin. Serotonin is the feeling of accomplishment, the feeling of pride, right? And they're walking across the stage with their chest out, I did this and it's amazing, right? But their parents sitting in the audience are having the same burst of serotonin, feeling equally as proud. That's my kid. And that's serotonin.

You get the reward for coaching somebody, parenting somebody, supporting somebody, helping somebody, watching them achieve and sharing in their achievement, right? It's our achievement. And that's why people give thank you speeches. I couldn't have done this without God, my parents, my coaches, my... They're sharing. They're sharing the recognition that I can't achieve alone. And then oxytocin, the magical one, which is unicorns and rainbows, mushy, mushy, love,

love, right? And oxytocin comes from many, many reasons and you can get it many ways. Physical touch gives you oxytocin. But doing something for someone with no expectation of anything in return gives you oxytocin. An act of kindness. And that's what that guy, you, the Surgeon General. That's what he did. The Surgeon General, he does something nice for somebody else

with no expectation of anything in return. And he felt good. He felt incredibly good. And the best thing about oxytocin is when you have it in your body, all it does, it makes you want to be nicer. It's it's mother nature's way of trying to get us to look after each other. And so when people don't serve, when they don't give to others, they might be consumed with dopamine, which is exciting.

The problem is dopamine is addictive because you only feel good in the moment of the achievement. Then you're keeping it in. Which is why the drug, you only feel good when the drug is in your system. And then when it's not in your system, you got to get it. Same with dopamine. I got to keep moving the goalpost. Okay. I'll feel good when I hit this goalpost. Nope. Move the goalpost. I'll feel good if I make my second million, my third million, my fourth million, this many followers, that many followers, this many hits, that many hits, this many likes. Nope. You'll feel good if I make my second million, my third million, my fourth million, this many followers, that many followers, this many hits, that many hits, this many likes, no, you'll feel good for a second. It'll pass and you'll have to move the goalpost again.

And the thing that I've learned is, is you should pursue something. You should have some sort of ambition. And I don't care what it is. You define your life however you want to define it. I want to have a family. I want to start my own business. Right. And once you've got there, once you've reached your goalpost, you have to say to yourself,

I've won. I'm not going to move the goalposts anymore because I keep moving the goalposts. I'm never going to be satisfied. Then what do you do for the rest of your life if you know the goal early. No, it's nothing to do with the goal early. You've got the thing that you wanted, and now you could get to design a life that you want. Irrespective. You don't have to pursue winning anymore.

The win has happened. You can look back at the goalpost and be like, I did the main thing I wanted. I did it. So whether it's, whether it's the Olympics or starting a family or starting a business, whether it succeeds or fails, right? I did it. And now I'm going to design a life, you know, that I want to live beyond. And it's, it's, it's relative to however anybody else wants to define the win.

Right. Do you feel like you to define the win. Right. Do you feel like you've gotten the win for yourself? I've had to learn. It was a lesson that I learned this year. And it's a friend of mine who said it to me. Because it was Teddy Roosevelt who said, comparison is the thief of joy. And I love the way he put that, the thief of joy. It steals joy. If you keep comparing yourself to other people and what they've achieved, that act of comparison literally will steal joy from you. You will never be satisfied with what you have because you will always find somebody

who's richer, better looking, got a nicer house, a net better car, a better looking girlfriend or boyfriend, better vacations, whatever it is, 100% of the time, 100% of the time. And the metrics are completely, like if you and I started comparing our metrics to each other, right? If I looked at your podcast audience views, I'd be like, I'm a failure. Louis's D-Link pulls me out of the water. I'm a failure.

But if I change the metric to LinkedIn followers, who's your daddy? I got you. I'm crushing you. Right? But let's make it book sales or let's make it. Intellectual. Household income. Whatever.

And like, I can feel depressed or I can feel elated just by simply changing where I'm looking. That's exhausting, right? And so I think what ends up happening is we focus on the one that is competitive. Well, I'm going to get more followers than Louis. I'll show him and I go ahead. I'm like, Yahtzee. But if I just look over here, I'm a loser again. And I think that's what I mean by winning, right?

Which is I kept changing what I was looking at. I would be, I'm like, I'm doing great. And then I'd change what I'm looking at or change who I'm looking at. I was like, Oh, you know, and it was a, it was a friend of mine who said to me, Simon, you've won. Stop it. Stop it. Like you'd won. That's something you learned this year. Just this year. Really? Yeah. And how old are you now? 51. 51. Yeah. So you learned this year. Just this year. Really? Yeah. And how old are you now? 51. 51.

Yeah. So you feel like... You look older than me. You look great, by the way. That's the first thing I said, man. You got the fitted shirt. It's just a shirt. It's a well-cut shirt.

So do you feel like in the last, I don't know, three decades since you've been in kind of the school, working world, business world, that you've always been jumping from comparison to comparison versus... I think we all go through phases. in kind of the school, working world, business world that you've always been jumping from comparison to comparison versus- I think we all go through phases. I think there are times where I make no comparisons

and I'm very satisfied. And there are times for whatever reason, bad night's sleep, feeling a little insecure. Yeah. It sneaks in. Why is this person this and this? It sneaks in. Yeah.

It sneaks in. I'm a smart guy, I should have this. Why can't I create this? Or I've been working for so long. Why isn't it here this? It sneaks in. It sneaks in. I'm a smart guy, I should have this. Why can't I create this? Or I've been working for so long. Why isn't it here yet? It sneaks in. Yeah, I think it's unavoidable. And that's why I don't actually believe in winning or losing.

I mean, you know that about me. I think it's a rhetorical trick. It's a rhetorical trick. It's another way of saying, just be grateful. You're fine. So if you feel like, I mean, I guess, so your friend told you this year, listen, you've already won. Yeah, and again, it's a rhetorical trick.

Which you don't care about winning or losing, but you've already created what you wanted to do. Like I set out to contribute to the world and I made strategic decisions that my contribution would be bigger than me. And it has been big. So for example, people who come up with ideas, they put a little TM on whatever they call their idea.

Always. You can just on their website. Trademark. A little trademark. Which basically means don't touch, this is mine. Mine. I want everybody to know it's mine. I own this idea.

I own this idea. It's my IP. Everybody knows what IP is. And I never did that. You'll never see a TM on the term golden circle. You never see a TM on the concept of why. And you'll never see a TM on the term golden circle. You never see a TM on the concept of why, and you'll never see a TM on the physical drawing of the golden circle.

Do I technically own all of those intellectual properties? Of course, right? Usage, you own it just with usage. But I never put a TM in it because I cared more that people used the idea than knew where it came from. And people do use the idea and not know where it comes from. And I don't pursue anybody who uses it. Without crediting you.

Without crediting, I don't care. Because credit wasn't the thing I was in pursuit of. It was impact that I was in pursuit of. So I made strategic choices to help drive impact rather than to help drive credit. If someone cares more about getting the credit for their work or their ideas versus making an impact, what is at stake for them?

If they care more about credit over him. I don't judge anybody's choices for their own lives. And as we said before, there's always a cost. The question is the cost worth it to you. So for me, the cost came in, you know, I probably could have made more money. I probably could have, who knows what, right? And that wasn't, that was fine.

That was, for me, that was a worthwhile cost, you know, because I was driven more by impact. Yes. And was there any price you've paid that looking back? Wasn't worth it? You're like, hmm, was that really worth it for that many years or this much time or this much stress thinking about this one thing? Yeah.

So I guess the question is, is Jimmy regrets? Yes. The simple answer is I do. I don't have regrets for mistakes. I have regrets for repeating mistakes. What was the biggest mistake you repeated? One of the biggest mistakes is I trusted somebody I shouldn't have trusted because they knew more than I did.

And I doubted in my gut and said, well, they've got more experience than me and I have to trust them. And then I tried to fire them and they talked me out of it. And then I continued to do business with this person who continued to screw me over and over again. And there, he is a taker. He's an, he's an astonishing taker. And, and, and How long was that going on for? A long time.

Years, decades. Years, years, years, years. So you regret not changing course. A long time. Years, decades. Years, years, years. So you regret not changing course. I should have trusted my gut the first time and ended the relationship. You're known for your brilliance, your intellect, your idea, critical idea generation, solving problems. Like this is one of the main things you're known for.

Like you are the modern intellect that people go to to pay a ton of money, to help them solve problems, to speak and influence people and democracy, capitalism versus communism. How do we make things happen in the world better? Like this is who you are. I know, silly, isn't it? It's not silly, but I'm just curious,

what do you think was something that you lacked for your own self to be able to see the situation in front of you in order to make a better decision for yourself? In that particular case, self doubt, self doubt, nothing short of, uh, I'm not good at that. That person is experienced. I should trust them. Other people said I should trust them. I don't trust them, but I should trust them.

So I'm going to trust them because everybody said I should trust them, even though my gut said don't trust them. And when I came to the realization like this person is not trustworthy, I'm going to fire them and I don't want them helping me anymore. And I tried to and they talked me out of it. Wow. I wasn't smart enough on how to change a contract. Is it smart?

Is it about being smart? Because this is the thing, you're extremely smart. But is it about- I have a type of smarts. Right. You have a type of intelligence. I don't have all smarts. Sure.

I have some smarts. What is the skill needed for you to reach a new level of intelligence, let's say, so that you don't repeat these things in the future. So the, I think the, it's a great framing. It was the, what I should have done, I was afraid of setting myself, I was afraid of not having that kind of support. I was afraid

of not knowing what to do without this person. I was afraid that I wasn't smart enough or didn't know how to navigate this industry without this person by my side. And what I should have done is just, it's like, it's like, it's like when you're sitting on the couch and you're overweight and all you do is watch TV and eating ice cream for every meal. At some point you go, I gotta get into shape and you make the decision to get into shape and the thing you didn't expect is how much it hurts. Painful. How much it hurts to start getting

into shape. Once you start, it gets easier, but to start to get into shape really hurts. And I think I sat on that couch fearing the pain of getting extracted from this. And if I had to do it all over again, I would put myself in the pain and I would go ask somebody else for help. Something you said earlier on is that you love ideas and people with ideas that make your head hurt. Yeah, true. What makes your heart hurt? I think this opens up whole can of worms

that my ex-girlfriend would say is the problem. I'm too, I'm too in my head. I think you just solved all the problems. Um, what makes my heart hurt? Or do you allow things? Do you allow your heart to hurt? Of course. I hate, I don't like bullies. I was never bullied as a kid. So it's not like... You're standing up for it. It's not some childhood thing. I just don't like it when the strong pick on the weak.

That doesn't mean they have to help them, but they don't have to pick on them. And I've been in meetings where somebody's being a bully, I know, I know what it is. They're insecure, they're becompensating, they will bully themselves. You're supposed to show some empathy. I can't. It like really upsets me. Yeah. I'd be like, why don't we let somebody else talk now, Steve?

You know? All right. Thank you, Julie. I think Lewis is trying to say something. You know, I can't help myself. You care about fairness. I think Lewis is trying to say something. You know, I kind of help myself. You care about fairness. I care about fairness. I think it's an ADHD thing. Somebody told me that ADHD kids have an over-exaggerated sense of fairness.

Interesting. So that's something that makes your heart hurt? I mean, heart hurt. Do you feel connected to your heart a lot? I probably could work on that. It's not about could or should or right or wrong. I'm just curious. Better than I was. I think there's room for improvement. Sure. What do you think is possible for you, Simon, if you were able to trust your heart more rather than your head? I trust my gut. I mean, with the one exception that I'm telling you about, I'm pretty good at trusting my gut.

And it might take me a couple iterations to be able to articulate it or figure out how to say it to other people, but I'm pretty good at trusting my gut. It's not always right, but it's done me okay. And I think a lot of people who we look to for guidance will offer very similar advice, trust your gut, you know? And I think we have to understand what gut is.

Gut is the, it's your limbic brain. It's not actually your stomach. It's where all your values exist. It's where your beliefs exist. And the limbic brain controls all of our feelings. It controls all of our behavior, but it doesn't control language, which is why it's hard to put our feelings into words. It's why we use analogies and metaphors all the time.

It's hard to express anger. It's hard to express love. It's hard to express our feelings. It's hard to express frustration. And so we use analogies and metaphors, or sometimes we just say stupid things. Or we use, you know, banal tropes. We send memes to each other because somebody else has said it better. You know, we send quotes that we saw online because this person perfectly captures what I've been trying to tell you.

Yeah. Right? Yeah. So that's what we do. And so to have a, I think you should, before you can trust your gut, you have to have a clear sense of what your values are. You have to have a clear sense of what you believe in. Because otherwise, I'm not sure your gut is a good compass.

Gosh, it's so interesting you're saying this, because we're going back to something else you talked about, which is the skill of conflict resolution. Most people haven't been taught the skills of conflict resolution. You said the first thing is listening. We're in a world where most people aren't listening. They just want to get their- We're in a broadcast culture. They want to broadcast their feelings, but they don't know how to express feelings,

which I think is another skill, is learning how to express your feelings and emotions without throwing up on everyone and demeaning people or calling names or screaming at someone. Calling for their canceling, whatever it is. Everything. It's all emotion. And I think the third thing that you just said, the people, correct me if I'm wrong, people who usually scream the loudest sometimes aren't even clear what their values are. That's true. They're like, they think they know what a value is, maybe, or they just see that's unjust

or I don't like that because that happened to me and I don't agree with that or I'm whatever. I think that what we see in our country, our country is a ship without a rudder and has been for many years. This is not a Republican or Democrat thing. Under both Republicans and Democrats, we've been kind of like out at sea, kind of just going with the wind. And, you know, we can probably trace it to the fall of the Berlin Wall and the collapse of the Soviet Union, where we knew who we were and we knew who we were against. Who were we and who were we against then and who are we now and who are we against? And unfortunately, you know, there's a great irony in this, right?

Which is America without competition is a monopoly and monopolies as capitalists, we don't like monopolies, right? Because we know monopoly is stifle competition. They know we're not good for the consumer, not good for the employee. Like we don't like monopolies. We like viable competitors because we think competition, this is our fundamental belief in Adam Smith economics. We fundamentally believe that competition is good for the consumer and good for the

employee, right? And it's good for society. And so in America without a competitor is not a great America, right? And I think we've been pretty rudderless and I'm uncomfortable with this, but we need competition. It's called an enemy, but we really need a peer or greater than peer competitor. Why do we need competition? Because a competitor in the most basic, simple way helps you know the things you stand for. It's kind of like, you're in business,

you sometimes have to look at design. What's the design of this mug? What's the design of this website? And you don't really know what you want until you see it. You know, I don't want that. Yeah, I don't want that, or I like this. Right, you don't know until you can see it. And then it's obvious,

but you couldn't give anybody the instructions to get you to that and not do that. And so it's really annoying for the people who show you stuff because you make them do all this work for you and to go, absolutely not that I know that. Right. But sometimes you have to see it to know it. Right. And like, people always come to me like, do you want this or this? Like, I don't know, show me. And I'll tell you, let me hear it. And I'll tell you which song I like better. Let me taste it. And I'll tell you which meal I like better. Like I have to try it, see it, touch it to know it. Right. And I think that the easiest way to know your values is to see the thing that stands in the way of your values. And so you know what you stand for when you can see the thing standing in the way.

Now there's a nuance here, which is really important, which is truly having vision and belief is you see the quote unquote enemy or the competitor as the thing standing in the way of you getting the thing that you want. But simply having an enemy being against things is really easy to rile people up and really easy to get them going. But what's beyond that wall? What's beyond that obstacle? So let's take a commercial example.

Apple used to stand for the individual creative freedom. That's what it stood for. It didn't like incumbency status quo or slow corporate. When Apple started, the thing standing in the way of them advancing their vision was IBM. Well, IBM became a non-thing anymore. Then the thing standing in the way of them becoming their thing was Microsoft. Hi, I'm a Mac.

I'm a PC. And then you can see the values remain the same. Great commercials. But the obstacles to them achieving their values, the status quo, the norm, the anti-creativity, they could easily keep changing who the competitor was, but the vision remained the same. What was beyond that competitor remained the same. It's very tempting to have the competitor to have the enemy, but not know what's beyond the wall because it's very exciting. Right? And so like, be careful what you wish for it,

because what happens if that enemy goes away and now you're like, and now what? Now what do we do? Right? And you can see it in our nation. We're a nation in clearly not knowing who we are or what we stand for. We don't know who our competitors are, right? It's not communists versus democracies and capitalists anymore because now it's all a mess, right? So that's not it. It's something else. And you can see in the population, people desperately pursuing something to give them the feeling of belonging. So on the left or the right of the political aisle, so whether it's anti-Israel on one side of the political spectrum, it's anti-vax

on the other side of the political spectrum, you can see people glumming onto something that is exciting and they get all the feels. They have create community, they create friendship, they have a sense of purpose. They've never felt like this before. They're making friends. They feel like their life matters. People understand them. They feel understood in their circles.

It's amazing until it goes away. And then what? And so you can see kind of people bouncing from thing to thing. And none of those things last for very long. I mean, they could be measured in years. They could measure in months or years, but it's not lifetimes. Like communism versus capitalist democracy, that was generations. That was worthy of going to war. You know? It was also the thing that made the left and the right come together, which is we hate each other, but we hate that more. Let's stand together against that common enemy. We don't have that anymore.

We don't have that anymore. It's all against each other. It's all against each other, which is how empires fall. Empires fall from within. The empires collapse as it's an act of suicide, not... Wow. Yeah. So empires collapse from within where we go at each other's throats and our enemies are

just loving it. And you can see it now, whether it's the Iranians or the Russians or whoever, North Koreans, whoever's screwing around with our social media, they're not inventing any conflict. They're amplifying the conflicts that exist. They're finding the things that we're at each other's throats for, and they're screwing around on social media to turn the volume way up. They're not creating anything. They're amplifying all of it.

And so we hate each other, and we're at each other's throats. And all the noise in social media is not even all of our own noise. It's agitators. And then you realize... But doesn't that bring people together too? Doesn't it also help create more connection? If we can recognize that that's happening, if we can recognize the group that's doing it to us and why they're doing it to us and what they don't like about us that we should be standing up for, which

I don't think anybody can actually articulate very clearly right now. And we haven't had a world leader. We haven't had a president who's done it since probably the collapse of the Berlin Wall. You know, every Republican and Democrat has kind of gone insular. Our presidents used to talk about world peace. They don't talk about world peace anymore. It sounds corny and cheesy. There's no existential threat to the United States,

but there is, that's the thing. It's just not easy to understand. Wow, what's the problem with capitalism then? So capitalism is good, but not the version we have. Adam Smith capitalism, which is competition, is ultimately good for the customer and the employee. And the baker who selfishly wants to make the best bread, and the butcher who selfishly wants to make the best meat,

and the dairy farmer who selfishly wants to make the best cheese gives you the best sandwich. Right? That's how capitalism is supposed to work. How have we gotten away from that? You know, you blame the 70s and 80s. You blame the rise of Milton Friedman, who's an economist who theorized that the responsibility of business was to maximize profit within the bounds of the rules, within the bounds of law. Well, what happened to ethics? The law is a very low bar. Sure. was to maximize profit within the bounds of the rules, within the bounds of law. Well, what happened to ethics? The law is a very low bar.

Sure. Ethics is a much higher bar. There's a recent thing that's happening now. I think it's happening in Texas, where I've forgotten the guy's name, where he's pointed out that the exact same products in India or Europe or Canada have fewer and healthier ingredients than the exact same product in the United States.

Kelly and Casey means, yeah. Yeah. And vicar, yeah. And ours are filled with chemicals and where there's like a candy bar, like the exact same candy bar. Like if I eat a Kit Kat in England and I eat a Kit Kat here, a Kit Kat here is made with partially a dry unit of oil, palm oil and high fructose corn syrup. There it's made with butter and sugar. So it's less bad. And when Kellogg's

was interviewed, like WTF, their answer was we obey all local laws. Like really that's your go-to. Your go-to is we followed the law. Like that's, that's what you're going to stick with. What about ethics? Yeah. What about civic responsibility? What about maybe it's okay to lose a little margin to be good for society, but you're gonna go with until they change the laws, we're just gonna follow the laws. Right. Like, what a low bar to go through life.

Sure. Right? I mean, can you imagine cheating on your girlfriend and she brings it up to you and be like, it's not against the law. Right. All right. Yeah. We would be- Can you and be like, it's not against the law. Right. Right. Yeah. We would be.

Can't cheat on your wife, that's against the law. Yeah, yeah. We would be together. Cheating on your girlfriend, not against the law. Right. We didn't sign a marriage contract yet. I don't owe you anything. Wow.

Low bar. Yeah. Low bar, right? And so I think the rise, Adam Smith capitalism, which is the capitalism that made America great, is not really existent anymore. We have a Jack Welch, Milton Friedman capitalism, where we prioritize the shareholder over the customer and the employee, where we prioritize the quarter over the survival of the business, where short-termism became everything and shareholder supremacy became everything.

We started using people to manage the books. We use mass layoffs to meet our quarterly or annual projections. We're profitable, just not as profitable as we promised Wall Street, so you get to lose your job. Sorry, nothing personal. It's just business. And so capitalism is very broken. And I think the danger is that people are trying to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

They're trying to throw out all capitalism because the system that we're in really is screwed up. But capitalism is awesome. This version of capitalism is terrible. This version of capitalism is run by finance bros who speak in tongues that I definitely can't understand them. And by the way, I don't think they can understand me sells most of the time.

And the stock market, the stock market was invented so that the average working American could partake in the wealth of a nation. That was why the stock market exists for the middle class. The middle class is barely in the stock market anymore. It is now the playground of the 1%. And they are using our national institutions for their own personal gain. And then, I mean, just talk to any finance bro, talk to any of them.

And you say, what societal good are you doing? What contribution are you making to society? They all say the same nonsense. We're contributing to the economy and we're helping provide jobs. Okay? Then why are you okay with mass layoffs if you care so much about job production? You care so much about job production, why aren't you fighting tooth and nail to make layoffs only a last resort, not a first line of defense?

It's all rationalizing. It's just personal profit. That's all it is. Right? What if someone who's maybe running one of these businesses or another perspective might be, well, you mentioned competition. In order for me to compete and not let someone else monopolize this industry or this sector of the business, I need to be able to have more cash flow.

And so I need to let go of certain people or mass land, whatever it is. I'm not justifying. I'm just saying, what if they're coming in and saying, this is the only way I can compete. And otherwise, our stock will go to zero and no one will invest in our business. Last line of defense, not first. Not first. Layoffs, I'm not against them as long as they're existential.

How many CEOs of public companies who missed their quarterly results? They're profitable. It's not like they're losing money. Right. They promised x percent and they made X minus 4%. And they're getting battered by the analyst class whose bonuses depend on not the success of your company.

Right. Right? That's the problem. Gotcha. You're making an existential argument. I'm making, we're not as profitable as we promised argument. Not to mention the fact, fine, let's stick with, I don't even care, we're not as profitable as we promised.

Fine, let's just go with that, right? As opposed to just saying, ah, we missed our numbers. Oh well, we'll do better next time, guys. Like, let's figure out what we did and let's try again, right? How many of them have gone and said, look, huge pressure on me from Wall Street, huge pressure on me. I don't even think you understand the pressure on me.

They're pushing me to do layoffs. They tell me I got to cut expenses by 10%. I don't want to. So I want you all to go, hey, my senior leaders, I want you to go to all of your divisions. I want you to go to your front lines. Go to your junior people, your mid-rank, your middle management and tell them this. We have to cut 10% and I don't want to do it with people.

Find me 10%. Go find me 10% because if we can't find 10%, the pressures overwhelming, I might have to cut heads and I don't want to. How many CEOs have done that? How many CEOs have asked their frontline teams to help them? No, none. None?

No, it doesn't happen. It doesn't happen. Look at the entire function of human resources. Your average CHRO gets boned by how efficiently they did the layoffs. Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. An HR person is supposed to be at the executive table as the voice of the employee.

And when the CEO or you more likely, the CFO goes, I think we need to cut off, you know, 10% of our workforce, blah, blah, blah. That CHR is supposed to say, don't you touch my people. You find that money somewhere else. Interesting. That's not what's happening. They go, aye, aye, sir, layoffs done efficiently. No, the whole thing screwed up.

No wonder people are upset. No wonder young people are voting for populists on the left or the right, whether it's Bernie Sanders or Donald Trump. I understand the rise of populism. It's because the system isn't working for the average working American on both sides of the aisle. That's why we see a rise of populism because we reject, we reject the system that we're currently living in.

What do you think would be the perfect system to live in or better system? There's no perfect system. What's a better system? What did Churchill say? Democracy wouldn't, what did he say? Democracy is a terrible form of government, but it's better than all the others. The worst form of government, but it's better than all the rest, whatever he said. I mean, someone's always going to be rest, whatever he said. You know.

I mean, someone's always going to be sad, suffering, hurt, losing opportunities. Churchill said it best, right? The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings. The inherent virtue of communism is the equal sharing of miseries. So which one do you want? Right, you want equal sharing of miseries or unequal sharing of blessings. And we have opted for an unequal sharing of blessings. That's just the system we've picked.

That's what... There's some who'll do really well, there's some who will do not really well. You could argue that it's unfair. You might be right. But the most important thing is the middle. The most important thing is the middle class. The bigger the middle class, the more stable a society is.

When the middle class starts to dissipate and starts to go away, and you start having the haves and the have-nots, and the gap between the haves and the have-nots gets wider and wider and wider, in 100 percent of those times, what you get is, revolution every single time. Because we don't particularly have problems with people making more money than us. This goes back to anthropology as well. It's the anthropology of leaders.

Have we ever talked about this? No, I don't think so. So we are social animals, right? And for thousands and thousands and thousands of years, we lived in tribes that were rarely bigger than about 150 people. We only started farming about 10 or 12,000 years ago, and we can start to sustain populations larger than about 150, 200 people. Right? So we lived as subsistence hunters gatherers for tens of thousands of years in populations no bigger than 150-ish people. Okay? But there's some very practical problems, right?

Which is, what if you bring food, austere conditions, you're a hunter and you bring food back to the tribe, we're all hungry, we all rush in to eat. Well, if you're built like you're built, like an athlete, and I'm the artist of the family, and we're all shoving our way into the front, I'm going to get an elbow in the face. This is not a good system of cooperation because at night, when you're sleeping and there's

a saber-toothed tiger, I'm not waking you. So this doesn't work. So we evolved into hierarchical animals. We're constantly assessing and judging who's alpha. Right? And when we assess, and it's a relative scale, when we assess that someone is alpha to us, we voluntarily step back and allow our alphas to eat first. Our alphas get first choice of meat and first choice of mate.

And we see this in society all the time. Right? Like if you're a senior, someone will go get your coat for you in the other room. If you're a junior, you get your own coat. Right? There are perks. There are perks all the time. And we don't mind.

We don't mind our alphas getting preferential treatment. There's not a single person on the planet who is morally offended by somebody more senior in the organization getting a higher salary. It offends no one. We might think they're an idiot, but we're not morally offended. But the group is not stupid. We don't give our alphas all of the advantages for free. There's a deep-seated social expectation that when danger threatens the tribe, the person who's actually better fed, who's actually genetically stronger is going to be the one to rush towards

the danger to protect us. And they need to protect us. Which is why we gave them first choice of mate because if they get killed, we need their genes in the gene pool. We're not stupid. We don't have any problem with a CEO making a ton more money than us. So long as they're willing to sacrifice their interests, their short-term interests for our survival. And when we watch CEOs laying people off

to protect their own bonuses, they have literally violated the deep-seated social responsibility of what the responsibility of a leader is, which is to protect the tribe. We don't have a problem with you making more money, but that money doesn't come for free. You earn it by putting your interest second for the group. And what we've watched for decades now is a CEO class sacrifice their people to protect

themselves, never sacrifice themselves to protect their people. And that's why you have an anti-capitalist movement right now. That's why we have a pro-populist movement. That's why we're angry at the ruling classes because they have violated their social responsibility to look after us. You're not talking about if there is 1% of the organization that is not showing up on time, not doing their job and consistently not improving. It's okay to let those people go. If they're uncoachable. Right.

You don't lay somebody off just because they have substandard performance. You don't lay somebody off just because they're difficult to be around. You coach them. You know this. Of course. Right? You coach them. We're more talking about like, okay, we just need 10% gone. I need to, I need to, I need my numbers back. I need you done. It's the first choice.

Sure. Right? And then they're surprised that they have morale issues that last for years beyond the short-term financial bump they got. Idiots. I mean, these things, this is not rocket scientists. Right. Like I'm not smart enough to run a multi-billion international public company, which is proof that that part is really easy because if I understand it, I know they understand. Sure. That means they must be ignoring it.

Right. Because they're definitely smarter than I am. So what needs to change in order for that to start to take place in big corporations? We need new leaders. We need new leaders with an ethical compass. We need new leaders who are willing to make change, even if the law doesn't require them to make it. We need leaders who use layoffs existentially only,

and as a last resort, not a first line of defense. We need leaders who build businesses to contribute to society, not just to make money, where we throw out Milton Friedman. We literally throw him out and say, he was wrong. The purpose of a business is not just to make money within the bounds of the law. The purpose of the business is to contribute to something larger than itself. And if you are good at doing that, you will make

lots of money. I like to think of a business like a car, right? We don't buy cars simply so we can buy gas. That is not the purpose of a car simply to get more gas, right? The purpose of a car is to go somewhere. And what do you need to make that car go? Gas, money. The purpose of a company is to go somewhere. The purpose of a company is to move a needle, contribute, make my life a little better, a little easier, a little more fun, whatever it is, a little more convenient. I don't care. Contribute to my life in some way, shape or form, even if it's just to make me smile. And if you can do that, I will give you money and that money will fuel you to do that even more. And the CEO is the person who's sitting in the driver's seat looking out the front window,

not the gas pedal, not the gas dial and going, we're going there. And the CFO is the one watching the gas dial going, okay, slow down, go faster, move. Okay, we're going there. And the CFO is the one watching the gas dial going, okay, slow down, go faster, move, okay, you're fine. The CEO should be looking out the front door, out the front window. But too often we have CEOs obsessed with the gas dial, the gas gauge, right? And all the people are like, I like where you're going,

can I join? Those are called employees. So we've completely forgotten why companies exist. They're supposed to make life a little better, a little easier, a little more fun, a little more convenient, whatever it is. Right. And the competition is who can do it better. In a capitalistic world. I always get all riled up when I come to Seattle. I like it though. I like it. In a capitalistic society, I've heard you say you need competition. Yes, we like competition. We like competition because it drives innovation.

Makes us better. Makes us better. You got to improve. You can't have a crappy. You know this, go for a run by yourself. You run. You go for a run in a race. You run faster.

I ran my fastest turkey trot time last week. And I was like. It was a race. A race. Or you and I both know this. You go for a run. You just pick somebody and pretend. Oh yeah.

Are you really going your fastest? And then you just run ahead of them and you pick somebody else and you just pick somebody pretend. Oh yeah, are you really going your fastest? And then you just run up ahead of them and you pick somebody else and you run ahead of them. Exactly, exactly. But capitalism you love. Yeah, I think capitalism's fantastic. And competition we need. Correct.

But kind of going back to the beginning. And by the way, communism doesn't work. We know that because people are greedy. Waa, waaa. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Some are more equal than others. Exactly.

And it sounds like something that we're missing or something that gets lost in translation, let's say, in a capitalistic competitive world that is needed where communism doesn't work because people are greedy is collaboration. Yes. And also going back to the idea of friendship. Friends collaborate in a non-business way, but maybe also, but it's a collaboration

of activities, of ideas, of words, shared values, of conversations, travel, whatever it is, you're experiencing life in a collaborative environment, right? We're biologically engineered for it. Exactly. Yes. But when we live in a, you know, if you're a part of a company, maybe you've got friends within the company, but now there's competition because we're making money. Do you ever watch the great British baking show, Bake Off?

I think I've seen clips, but not the whole. That is, that show is a metaphor for the way life should be. Okay? It is a competition. There are winners and losers. Somebody gets booted off every month, every week, and somebody gets starbaked every single week. And they help each other.

In fact, I was watching the final season, the final episode, just this week, and they're competing to be the winner of the whole competition, and somebody was struggling, and they said, well, you help me, and the other guy came running over and said, absolutely. Really? They're competing to win. They're

not competing to make the other person lose. I just got the chills there. Okay. You know, it's interesting when you're saying that. I don't mean to interrupt you, but something that just came to me is when I was a decathlete as an athlete where I can relate to this, decathlon is 10 events in one event, track field. I know what the Cathalon is. For those that don't know. I was a big Daily Thompson fan back when I was a kid. Yeah, exactly. There you go.

So there's a beauty to the Cathalon, at least the way I was living in it. And you want to win and there's 10 events you're trying to win at every event. For whatever reason, when I got into the Cathathlon, it was one of the most beautiful experiences an athlete had ever had because I may be better at the high jump than someone else, but I'm rooting for the other guy that I'm trying to beat. Hey, you can get over this. Let me give you some tips and strategies.

There might be someone who's better at the pole vault than me, who's cheering me on at a lower height trying to get over the bar. And like, way to go. And here's where you can use my pole, you know, whatever it was like this beautiful thing. I've heard that about the decathlon. I wonder what it is about the decathlon versus other sports.

I think because it's so hard. Or because there's variety. I don't know what it is. I think it's so hard and you're not going to be the best at every event. Yeah. You're not the best. And so you support each other. You might be the best at one or two of the 10 of the group that you're competing in,

of 20 guys you're each other. You might be the best at one or two of the 10 of the group that you're competing in of 20 guys you're competing as. Yeah. And you know how hard it is to get better at some of these technical events. It's so challenging. And I think there's a level of respect also with your competitor of like, man, he's a decathlete too.

I know how hard he's had to train on the high hurdles and the pole vault and the discus and the shot. It's like, he just endures pain. Yeah. And it's like, so you kind of just respect, you want to beat him, but you were like you build a brotherhood with your competitors. That makes sense to me.

And that's the metaphor, bake-off or decatholize. Exactly. And it's becoming your best. It's like you may not beat the best guy, but did you get better and become your best and have PRs at these different events? And I think that's what it is. It's okay to compete to win, but you can't compete for the other person to lose.

And I think we've mistaken the two. And just look at our politics. There used to be a time in our politics where 80% of the negotiating happened behind closed doors and 20% of it's for the cameras. Now it's 100% for the cameras. And what they would do is they would come up with an agreement that both parties could go back to their constituents and say, we got what we wanted.

Now it's not enough to say we got what we wanted. They also have to say, and they got nothing. And guess who loses? Us. Everyone. Everyone, right? And so, and again, this is infinite games, right? In a finite game where there's beginning, middle, and end, sure, there's a winner and a loser.

But in business or life, there's winners. Yeah, relationships. You can win without other people. You can hit your numbers, you can beat your numbers, and it doesn't mean that the other company has to like go into bankruptcy. 100%. Right?

Like you can compete to win, but you cannot compete for the other person to lose. And for some reason in this modern day and age, it is not enough for us to win. We also want to ensure that the others around us lose. And that's nonsense. And this is why I say, this is going right back in full circle where we started.

This is why comparisons are thief of joy. Cause it's not enough that your life is good. You want your life to be better than somebody else. You want somebody else's life to suffer so you can feel better. Why can't you just be happy with what you've got? Interesting. Why can't you just be grateful?

Right? Okay, they have more money than you, but your kids are better. Interesting. Like, we don't spend enough time. This is why you had the gratitude practice. It sounds so ooey, gooey, mushy, you know, hippy-dippy. But I swear- I swear you wake up in the morning or before you go to bed at night, especially if you've got somebody sleeping next to you and just say, can we spend a minute, even

if you do it by yourself and just say five things we're grateful for, even if it's the same thing every night. I love our family. I love our family. I love our home. I loved the dinner you made tonight for us. I loved that we went on vacation and I love that we have a vacation coming up. And you realize very quickly life's pretty good. But when we do the comparison game, all we focus on is the things that are missing.

Can you imagine going to bed at night and talking about all the things I hate about my life and all the things that are lacking? It's exhausting. But we'd all be depressed. Yeah. Can we do it? People do it all the time. We do it all the time.

And you know one thing that I've done that's helped me? I have to have Instagram because I need to look at it for work. And then I deleted it. You can hide on an iPhone, you can hide an app from anywhere on your phone. It's just hidden. And you have to search for it to get it. And I took it out of the search suggestions, which you could do as well. So literally, it shows up nowhere unless I type in INST and then it pops up.

My use of Instagram has plummeted. Wow. Plummet Instagram has plummeted. Wow. Plummeted, plummeted. Cause it's just not accessible right now. It's just, you know, when you're just like looking at your phone cause you're bored and you're just like swiping through the screen,

you're like clicking on Instagram, it's just, I'm not clicking on it. And I'm not searching for it because I don't need it. Oh, and I've turned off all the notifications. That's a big one. That's great, yeah, I don't have that. I've turned off all my notifications, but just by not having it visible, I'm the happier

person. Wow. I've thought about a few things in the last few months. I don't know if I want to do them, but I've thought about this. My dad never let us watch the news. And so I don't watch the news today still. How lucky. How lucky. But I also don't feel anxious and stressed about like day to day, like this is all

happening, the world was collapsing. Like it feels like that when you watch the news to me. And when I watch a clip here and there, I'm like, gosh, it just feels like there's so much bad happening, which there is, but I choose to look at the good happening and focus on the gratitude of the good and focus on how can I continue to improve the good or improve some of the bad, not focus on it as much and the world is ending. But I've been thinking about the world's not ending. It is struggling, but it's not for sure. Yeah. Yeah. But there there's a lot of beauty as well. If you focus on the beach. Sure. I think But I've thought about Um, but I've thought about getting a brand new phone number one, cause I get tons of like scam texts and calls all day long.

And I'm just like, I, so I have everything on mute on my phone already. Just cause I don't want to get any calls inbound notifications. So I thought about getting a brand new number and just kind of putting like, I don't know, top 100 names that I need or something in there and just limiting distractions in general. names that I need or something in there and just limiting distractions in general. And I thought about unfollowing everyone, which is kind of like a big thing on Instagram for me of like, Oh, well, if I should do this, you just mute everyone. I could just maybe I just do that just so I don't get I've started muting content of

stuff, right? I've started muting like tons of people. You know, maybe keep following to that. Yeah, I don't want to offend it. That's the social currency. That's the thing. It's like, am I going to offend someone if I do that? I've noticed friends who haven't talked in a while

and followed me, like, what? Why am I following you then? Why is that? Why do people do that? It's passive aggression. Why do people get hurt by someone unfollowing them? It's passive aggression. Like not being invited to the birthday party.

Actively not inviting. That's telling everybody I'm not inviting you to the birthday party. I'm having a birthday party. Louis isn't invited. Just want Louis to know, hey, Louis, you're not invited to my birthday party. Just want you to know. So it's fine. But yeah, I think it's, it is true.

Just mute everybody. Yeah, okay. And maybe that's a better thing. Just so I don't get updates of all this stuff, you know, or just don't open it. And always say no to notifications. Yeah. Allow notifications. No, I have notifications turned on for text, phone call. And I think that's it. Yeah. Every other notification from my phone is turned off.

Text and phone calls, the only thing that is allowed. And even phone calls don't ring. My phone doesn't buzz. It makes no noise when that phone call comes in. And then I say, oh, I missed a call and I call them back. Yeah, that's smart. It's wise. So basically the only thing, and I always have my ringer off, always. Make sure it drives people crazy.

Me too. I never have it on. But also the thing that I've been practicing is having my phone not near me. So you have your phone in your pocket. Yeah, yours is over there. My phone is in the other room. Yeah.

I turned mine on mute so I get no buzzing or nothing, but it's not mute. You should have put it in an airplane mode. That's good. Cause you still know that things are coming in. I don't hear it or feel it, but you know, they're coming in when it's in. So when that one of your videos that I saw of yours in the past was, was you talking about, yeah, yeah. Phone on talking about the phone on the table here, or flipped up or flipped down or whatever it might be,

because you're still, you're waiting for something. Sure. So there's data on this. I'll get the numbers wrong, but you'll get the point. Which is when you have a phone on a desk with face up, you're something, you're like distracted 70% of the time or something, it're like distracted 70% of the time or something. It's like ridiculously high.

If the phone is down, it goes to like 40%, but you're still like, you're looking at it the whole time, you know, wondering what's coming in. If it's on and in your bag next to you, you're distracted 10% of the time. You're still distracted when it's in your bag. Yeah, it's crazy. And so what I find is that you put it

in airplane mode. The different room, yeah. Then you know nothing's coming in. Or turn it off. Turn it off or put it in airplane mode and leave it in another bag. Yeah, it's crazy. So what I find is if you put it in a different room, yeah, then you know nothing's coming. Or turn it off. Turn it off or put it in airplane mode and leave it in another room. It's good. I do it all the time now and I find it actually quite relaxing.

Yeah, it's good. Because I know nothing's coming and I don't even that's not even near me. Yes, I usually leave it in my other room, but my fiance called me right before. But it's just I usually leave it in my office and a whole other separate part. I hear the excuse.

I mean, she was flying on a plane and I was like, she had to come back to me in three hours. So I was like, ah, anyway. She's on a plane. She landed. But you know, parents are the worst offenders of this. But there's schools that want to ban phones and if the parents would say no.

I think schools should ban phones. I think they should ban the phone as well. The parents are like, well, what if there's an emergency? It's like, well, you call the office. They know where your kid is. Like when we were kids, they're like, you need to come to the office. Yeah, exactly. You know, your grandma did.

They called your office, so is it. You know? Like they just told you the office. Like we know where the kid is all day. Yeah. You know? Number one and number two, there's not emergencies. It's parents just calling and say,

what time do you want me to pick you up? You know? And so let the kids keep their phones in their lockers. I think they shouldn't. You know, but there should be no phones in a classroom. Yeah. None, they should be banned. It's parents who are the big offenders.

That's crazy. You know, I need to get a hold of my kid in case there's an emergency. How many emergencies you having per week? No, none. One a year? Maybe. If you're lucky?

More maybe. Unlucky? Right, maybe. It's close to zero. You just call the principal to call out. The number of times I was called out of my classroom and in all of my junior high school and high school life was maybe twice.

I think never. Maybe twice. Never. Yeah, I don't think there was a time for me. I mean, going back to the whole capitalism competition and collaboration, do you feel like friends are more collaborators or more competitive with one another than in today's society? When they're driven, when they see screening and competition and fighting

on TV. If you're insecure about something, you will find yourself feeling competitive with your friends. And I think that that is more a sign of something you're going through. I, we've all been there. I've definitely been competitive with friends. Really? Sure, of course.

It's cause I'm not in a good space. And their success is reminding me of the thing that I'm struggling with. So are you a good friend if you're competing with your friend? I think you're a good friend if you're open with your friend what you're going through.

Hey, can I talk to you for a minute? I'm going through some stuff and I'm having feelings that are making me real uncomfortable. Like I'm getting jealous of your success and that's screwed up because I'm so proud of you and so happy for you. Can I just talk to you about what I'm going through in my life because I don't think I'm in a good place

if I'm having that feeling. You know, jealousy is a feeling, like happy, sad, angry. And, you know, it's the same thing in relationships. Usually when we feel jealous, what we do is we demand that our partner change their behavior so we don't have to do that in securities. Right? Like, how dare you talk to your ex? How dare you look at that pretty barista?

And so they're forcing you to change your behaviors they don't have to do. As opposed to, hey, babe, I got really jealous when you called your ex. And I know you guys have been friends long before you met me. Can I just talk it through with you? I think I'm, I'm going through some stuff that, can you just hear me out for a little bit? Right, now, then you may say, you know what? I'm gonna talk to her less because I wanna be supportive

on you and your journey, but that's your choice to change your behavior, you know, in support of your partner. Yes. But I think it's the same in work stuff. The ability to understand that jealousy is a feeling and it's your feeling. And you need to be able to deal with your and your insecurities. And you can't be mad at your friend for being successful.

You can't be mad at your friend for achieving something that you wish you could achieve. But you can look at yourself and saying, am I not doing something or I'm, and, or am I, and this is why we'll go back to what I said before, which is work towards the thing that you want to do. And then if you achieve it, accept that you won. Cause that feeling of comparing yourself to your friends really goes down a lot. That's what happened to me. How do you feel though at this season of your life? You're only 51.

You're still very young, but you've accomplished so much on a big scale. You know, the books, the Ted talks, the speaking, the business, the pot, you know, you're around the most, you know, intelligent, successful people in the world. You've got powerful friends, all these things, you've done it, right? How do you not look back and say, oh, my best days are behind me, like I've won, so I just kind of just coast the rest of my life like an iceberg, right?

Which is when I was starting out, I had a vision of the world that could exist, but it didn't exist yet. So, the whole iceberg was under the ocean. I could see it, but nobody else could see it. And so, I was trying to describe what I saw, but people were like, I don't get it. And then a few people kind of understood what I was trying to say, or the things that I was putting out in the world helped me articulate it. And so a bit of iceberg popped out and people would be like, oh, I can see what you're trying

to do here. That's amazing. And then they would help me because they saw what I was trying to build because they saw what was above the ocean. But what I saw was beneath the ocean constantly like, oh, still have so much more to do. And no matter how much I've accomplished, you know, written a few books, you know, I've run the internet lottery more than once, which is amazing, you know, and more of the iceberg shows up.

So people now, you know, you kind of know what I stand for. You know, the vision I have of the world that I'm trying to build, you know, you either buy into it or you don't, you know? Like, I'm pretty predictable, you know? In other words, more of the iceberg is showing up. And people look at what's above the ocean line, above the sea line, and they go, wow, look at all the stuff you've accomplished. And I just can still see everything that's beneath the ocean.

Like, ugh, still more to do. But I'm not moving the goalposts. I'm not trying to get a different iceberg. I just know that vision is infinite. All men are created equal. I have a dream. They're all ideals that are unrealistic and unachievable but will die trying. And that's the point.

I imagine a world of world peace where we can resolve conflict peacefully. I'm never going to get it, but try. I imagine a world in which people wake up every single morning inspired, feel safe wherever they are, and end the day fulfilled by the work that they do. Never gonna achieve it, but I'll die trying. And so when I say I've won, what I mean is there's iceberg above the ocean. What I mean is I'm not living in dream world anymore. What I mean is I have momentum. What I mean is I have help. What I mean is the have momentum. What I mean is I have help. What I mean is the movement is advancing.

And this is my standard. However anybody else wants to define it is up to them. You know, this is the worst thing you can do is pick somebody else's standard and make it your own. You know, this is for me. For me, it was about momentum. It was always about momentum. That I wanted to do something that could survive me.

And if you look at this class of, and I hate the term, but let's use the term that people use, but thought leaders, right? Which is the mistake that so many of them make is, and I call it the Oprah problem, right? What's the Oprah problem? Oprah's amazing. She's a force of nature. She's incredible? Oprah's amazing. She's a force of nature. She's incredible.

She's inspiring. She's amazing. We all bow down to Oprah. She's a currency. You know, people like, is that person good at what they do? That's Oprah's person. You're like, oh, wow. Yeah, yeah.

You know, like, if you're connected to Oprah, you've made it. The Oprah mistake, she put her face and name on absolutely everything. She was on the cover of every single issue of Oprah magazine. She's got her face on the cover of every single book. So what happens when there's no Oprah? What happens to the company? What happens to the movement?

I can predict it dies. Really? Do you think anyone cares about Oprah magazine when Oprah's not around? What does Oprah's network stand for without Oprah? Force of nature who did the thing that made strategic sense was just leverage the brand. But at what cost? The cost is it probably only survive a lifetime, a powerful lifetime at that, but not beyond. And so I don't put my face on any books because I'm afraid of the Oprah problem.

I don't want my face and name on everything. And I've been very resistant. My team sometimes fights me with it. Because nobody Googles the name of my company. They Google me. And so I've had to sort of recognize that I have to let go of some of it for expedient sake. But I'm deathly afraid of making it all about me.

Mm-hmm. What do you think is the thing you'll be most proud of that you accomplish when it's all said and done? Well, I mean, I've added to the English language. I mean, I think that's amazing. Like the concept of why, like journalists, companies, CEOs, analysts, whoever, people talk about their why. They use the concept of why as a noun.

Like what's your why? That company doesn't know their why. And they don't quote me. Wall Street Journalists say the problem with that company is they doesn't know their why they need and they don't quote me. Wall Street journalists say the problem with that company is they don't know their why and they do not reference any of my work. It's just in the vernacular and prior to my work that didn't exist. And I'm so proud of that. I'm so proud of that. And the best part about it is it's not associated with me.

That's the thing I'm most proud of. Most people don't know that that was what I was working on all those years ago. It's just part of life now. And that to me, I can sit back and no one will know my name. I don't care if my name is forgotten. I want to be one of those stars that nobody knows who they are. I think that's great. Let somebody else, you know? But to know that something that I did has added to people's understanding of the world disconnected from me, I'm done. Everything else is cherries. That's cool. What do you think would be your most proud, I guess, non-business or non-society related accomplishment? I'm a really good uncle. Yeah. I love my, I love being an uncle.

I love my niece and nephew. My family fuels me as if I were their, as if I were their dad. Would you ever have kids or no? I mean, it's, it's, I, I'm more in love with the idea of partnership than I am of children. Like I like the idea of raising children with a partner. So my drive is not to have a child. My drive is to find somebody. I like the idea of raising children with a partner. So my drive is not to have a child. My drive is to find somebody I love so much that I want the lifestyle of raising a

family with that person. I would always get turned on emotionally when I'd see my sister, my brother-in-law doing the division of labor. I'd just be at their house and I'd be like, okay, you bath the kids, I'll clean up. I'm like, oh, that's so cool. And even now, like, okay, you get this one from school, I'll get that one from volleyball practice. And the division of labor and the organizing, I think it's awesome. It's a well-oiled machine. That's what I love partnership. I love partnership and division of labor. I just think it's the best thing in the world. So you may have a family in the future or you're open to it? I'm not close to it.

You're not against it? Not against it. How important do you think family is in America and to society? It's essential. I mean, you know, whether it's family or friends, we're like family. You know, I think that we have to perform for society. You have to act a certain way. There's the levels of decorum.

Manners, values, morals, ethics. And there's much said that you get to be yourself where no, you don't. You have to, you're not, you shouldn't be not yourself. You should always be you for sure. But you smooth the edges. Like you and I, like I curse like a sailor when I'm not on camera sure I'm on camera Yeah, yeah, I'm

Tone it down. Oh, yeah. Yeah, right. You're you but I'm still me. I'm still this like you hang out with me privately This is what you're gonna get. Yeah with some a little more cursing, you know You know a little more irreverence, you know you know, a little more irreverence, you know? Sure. I'm still me, but you smooth the edges depending on like how you are with your friends is very different than how you are in an interview. How you are on a first date is very different

than how you are on a 10th date, right? And it's still all you, but you have to change for the situation. We have no choice, it's how society functions. If we all just wanna be our quote unquote true selves all the time, society would break. It would be chaos.

So the idea of like bending and molding to fit the situation, you have to be a little different at work than you are with your friends. The jokes you make with your friends, you can't make it work. You're not allowed, right? You get fired, baby. You might get fired, yeah. Or you'll upset somebody where you're not upsetting your friends,

right? And so you have to do that. And so the value of family and more important than the value of friends is that's the one place, those intimate settings where you can let it all go. Right. And be, hopefully be accepted. You can be weird and you can be irreverent and you can be rude and you can say nonsense and you can let all your insecurities out on the table as opposed to hiding them every day, which is what we're all very good at hiding our insecurities on a daily basis. Like on a first date, don't put all your insecurities on the table as opposed to hiding them every day, which is what we're all very good at hiding our insecurities

on a daily basis. Like on a first date, don't put all your insecurities on the table, not good first date etiquette, sure. By a 10th date, yeah, start to search on vulnerability. But with your friends, it's all out on the table. And that's why friends are important because if you're playing by society's rules, if you're hedging yourself to, what will people think? They're thinking nothing, you're playing by society's rules, if you're hedging yourself to conf—

What will people think? They're thinking nothing. You're by yourself with your friends. What will people think of me? They'll think nothing. They're not thinking of you. And that's why friends are important, because you have to have the release

of being your fully exposed, true self with all of the weirdness and warts just out on display and you don't feel judged and you feel safe and you feel loved. And that's why friends are important. Because if you're pretending, not pretending, that's the wrong word. If you're hedging and smoothing for society and you're hedging and smoothing in private, you're gonna feel lonely. You're gonna feel uncomfortable. Yeah. If you're fully open, nut job self with your friends and then you're your fully nut job self out in public, people are gonna be like, no. Chill out. Yeah, chill out.

And I've seen it. I know a guy who does stuff what we do and he is very irreverent. He curses on stage. I mean, he's like, he's raw. That's how he is in private and how he's in public. And his career is great. But I also know he doesn't get invited to certain gigs. All right, right. Because of that. Because of that. It might get him invited to certain things because of it. It might not get him invited because who knows? I think the uninvitations has happened

more than the invitations. Sure, sure, sure. You know? And they just wish he would stop cursing. Right, right. Because the audience doesn't want that. Right. And if he doesn't care, then he doesn't care.

Exactly, yeah. But you know, the point is, is there are costs. Sure, of course. So price. There's a price. There's a price for everything. And there's a benefit for that price? Then have at it.

100%. But anyway, the point is, is not that. The point is, is the value of friends is that you can be yourself without judgment. Yes. And that is really important. One of the big takeaways for me from this conversation, I always get a lot of great insights

when I'm around you, Simon. We've covered a lot of topics. Yeah, it's beautiful. One of the big takeaways for me from this conversation, I always get a lot of great insights when I'm around you, Simon. We've covered a lot of topics. Yeah, it's beautiful. One of the big insights though, I think the biggest thing for me, which I think everyone can be better at, is learning the skill of conflict resolution. Yeah, because you haven't talked about it much.

If you can learn the skill of conflict resolution, we flirted with it. You said the first thing is listening. I think I jumped in and said, you know, learning how to express your feelings as another thing that you were talking about. You mentioned a clear sense of your values, like understanding what are my values so I can communicate my values without throwing up on everyone and also be able to listen to someone else and see, okay, is there any middle ground? And I think there's something else you said,

which was interesting, which is managing insecurities. Like understanding your insecurities and being able to talk about it either with your friends or in a way where you can manage them. And maybe it's not good to talk about them right away with certain people when you're in conflict, but understanding, okay, I'm feeling jealous, I'm feeling insecure, I'm feeling not heard,

whatever it might be, I'm feeling a lack and being able to manage them so that you can hopefully communicate and express what you need to communicate at the right time in the right manner. You've got at Optimism Company, you've got an online human skills courses, you've got these different courses. I'm not sure if conflict resolution is one of them.

If it isn't, I think it should be. I think it might be. And if it isn't, you're right. But you've got a lot of, because I think that's kind of the root of a lot of problems is people don't know how to communicate when there is conflict. So here, I know we're winding down, but let's do a couple of practical things. So one of them was, if you're in conflict with someone and let's talk about relationships because that's, it works at work as well. Cause relationships, relationships, but, um, here's some mistakes that we make,

right? We correct people's facts in an emotional situation, right? We bring facts to an emotional gunfight. Do not do that. Really? Right. So for example, why not? Uh, because facts don't, facts and versions

are different things, right? I'll give you an example. Your girlfriend says to you, I'm so angry at you because six times last week you did this thing and you went, actually it was four times. And she was like, who cares how many times it was? Like if you're gonna fight with me, get your facts right. Yeah.

Don't do that. Just let it be six, it doesn't matter. I'm kind of that guy that's once it gets a facts right? You know, it's no, I want it to be, cause I feel like it's unfair. No, do not bring facts. Just though. No, do not bring facts and you're the fairness guy though. So what if someone, what if someone, it's nothing to do with fairness. It's about the other person feeling heard. You're getting, you're playing the rules. I got that. I got that playing with the wrong rules. So do not bring facts and emotional gunfight. Okay. Okay. Allow emotions.

So I'll give you, I'll give you a real life example. Okay. Of where I learned this or how, one of the ways I applied this, I went to see a friend's performance, uh, that she was in a, at a show. It was the worst thing I've ever seen in my entire life. And at the end of the show, I went and hung out in the lobby, like all the friends and family. And she came out all jacked up on adrenaline, still in costume, still in makeup. Big smile on her face. She goes, what'd you think? She knows I'm an honest broker.

She knows I'm not gonna lie to her. Now is not the time. Now is not the time. So I said, but I can't lie. Yes. So I said, oh my God, I'm so proud of you. True. So this was so much fun for me to be able to see you do your thing for the first time.

I've never seen you on stage before. True. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Kiss, kiss, kiss. And then goes off to the next person. Two days later, when all the adrenaline has calmed down and there's no more emotion, I said to her, hey, you asked me when I thought about the play, can I tell you, can we talk about it?

She goes, yeah, absolutely. And then I can say, I thought the directing was a bit weak. I thought the thing she's, and we can have a rational conversation about it. If I did it at in the moment, I would have hurt her feelings. Yeah, of course. For no reason whatsoever.

Yeah, yeah. Right? Somebody gives you a gift. It's the ugliest sweater you've ever seen. They go, what do you think? You can't say it's ugly. You can't say it's ugly. You go, well, thank you so much for thinking of me.

This was so unnecessary. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then three days later, you go, hey, do you have the gift receipt? Do you mind if so unnecessary. And then three days later, you go, hey, do you have the gift receipt? You might have exchanged it for something else. I'm not crazy about the color. They'd be like, yeah, totally fine.

So you can't bring facts through an emotional gunfight. You meet emotion with emotion, you meet facts with facts. And sometimes if somebody's in an emotional state, if you're not, you have to allow them to be in the emotional state, which means you have to hold space. It sounds ooey gooey, sort of hippie dippy, hold space. All it means is allow the emotions to be heard. That's all they want is to feel, feel, not think.

All they want to do is feel heard. So there's one really easy trick to do it. Whatever they're saying to you, and I've had this happen to me, as having my girlfriend decided to tell me what she thought. And she was saying things that were untrue, made me super defensive, super defensive, and really unfair. And I fought back a couple of times and it didn't work because it never does, because I'm bringing facts to an emotional gunfight and I should know better.

So in my head, I said to myself, this is her story. Her story doesn't have to be true. Your job is to listen to her story. I literally said it and she would say things that really like made me, they triggered me and I would say to myself, this is her story. Her story doesn't have to be true. Your job is to listen to her story. And I sat there and I would, I would nod and I'd say, tell me more, go on.

What else? And I acted. I, I, I listened to a story that I, I removed myself from one of the, as one of the, Yeah, so hard to do. She was telling, she was telling, talking about somebody else. And I just let her get it all out. And I affirmed, I said, yeah, uh-huh. I hear that.

I hear that that hurt. Tell me more. What else? Go on. Tell me more. What else? Go on. This is her story.

Her story doesn't have to be true. My job is to listen to her story. And at the end, she goes, thank you. Thank you. I probably overstated some of those things. I know you've been struggling and I know you've been overworked and that's probably, and she gave me all the passes. I didn't have to say, what are you talking about? I'm just stressed out in my mind. How can you? So I'm not listening to

her, right? Yes. And so this is how we resolve conflict. Conflict resolution is not efficient. And what I've learned is that it gets more and more efficient over time because you get really good. You get really good at making somebody feel heard really quickly. And you get really good at backing away really quickly. And you get really good at understanding that if their response is above a five, it's probably

about something else. You always leave the cap off the toothpaste. It's not about the toothpaste. You get really good about not having a whole fight to find out it wasn't about the toothpaste because that's usually why it's inefficient. You'd fight first, then you'd realize it's not about the toothpaste. And that's what takes four hours. What happens is you recognize that when somebody yells at you about the cap on the toothpaste,

you go, babe, what's the matter? What's going on? And you let them say what they need to say about the cap on the toothpaste. And you know it's not about the toothpaste. You just need to let them get it out so they can get to the thing that it's actually about for you to take accountability for your actions. And that's the other thing. You have to take accountability for your actions. Saying you're sorry doesn't mean you're wrong. Saying you're sorry means you take accountability for the thing that you said or did.

That hurt them. That hurt them. Yeah. The analogy is you're walking through the airport with your wheelie bag and you accidentally roll your wheelie bag and you accidentally roll your wheelie bag over somebody's foot. You turn around, you immediately go, sorry. You didn't intend to, but it's your bag.

So you say, sorry. Can you imagine if you rolled your bag over someone's foot and they go, what up? And you go, what, I didn't do it on purpose. They're like, you roll over my foot. You're like, I didn't do it on purpose. That's how we fight with our loved ones. We say something that hurts them.

We rolled our bag over their foot and they go, why won't you say you're sorry? You're like, I didn't do it on purpose. Why would I need to apologize? Cause it's your words, cause it's your actions. Cause it's your wheelie bag. You didn't do it on purpose. Still your words, still your actions,

still hurt their foot. Yeah. Still hurt their feelings. So accountability is built into it. Anyway, you get all of this. You've gone for hours. 100%, yeah. People wanna learn more.

What do you got in your skills courses right now? Because I think this is where you thrived is giving people human skills to be better humans. That's the goal. We are super, super focused on our learning platform where it's all about human skills. We're not gonna teach you how to get an MBA or anything. Like there's none of that stuff. This is the lost art. This is the art that helps you

become successful in life. The art of being a human being. And, you know, cats don't have to work very hard to be cats. That's just natural. But it turns out it's a lot of work to be a good human being. To be good at being a human being is really, like, it's not natural. We're kind of junk at it. And you have to study it.

Conflict resolution is essential in a relationship. But what if you don't know how to resolve a conflict if you've never been taught? natural, we're kind of junk at it and you have to study it. Conflict resolution is essential in a relationship. But what if you don't know how to resolve a conflict if you've never been taught? Yeah. And so listening, conflict resolution, how to give and receive feedback, these are all skills. How to lead others, you know, these are all skills.

These are all skills that we have on our website and continue to add to that skill set. That's great. And it's a lot of the stuff is, you know, the way we come up with a lot of the classes is like, somebody on the team is like, I need to learn this. And you're like, let's create it. We'll build it. Let's create it.

It's all at simonsetting.com. All the courses, the podcast, you got a great podcast as well. A bit of optimism, people can check that out. Those are the main things you're working on these days, right now. Bit of optimism podcast, that's the thing. The website, that's the thing. Website, that's the thing.

I also have a, I also am a publisher. Ooh, I saw that too, yeah, that's exciting. So I have a deal with Penguin Books, and my last book that we published was a book called Unreasonable Hospitality by Will Godera, which is spectacular. Is this the restaurateur? Yes.

Out in New York? Yes, he used to own 11 Madison Park, which was the number one restaurant in the world. Interesting, so you published that book, that's very- And the book has nothing, well, it has everything, He's a restauranteur out in New York. Yes, he used to own 11 Madison Park, which was the number one restaurant in the world. So you published that book, that's great. And the book has nothing, well, it's not about how to start a restaurant, it's about how to treat people. Of course. You should have Willan.

That's his thing. He is a fricking rock star. I wanna check that out. I've heard about that guy. And my hear is awesome. He's amazing. He's amazing and his book is amazing. What's the book called again? Unreasonable Hospitality. Super, super proud to be the publisher. I've heard about that book, yeah.

That's done really well. Super proud. I'm gonna check that out. Yeah, that's done really well. I'm going to check that out. How else can we be of service to you today, my man? I mean, you give me a platform to wax philosophical. I always like coming on here. I love it. I always like coming in here. Our conversation always goes in a very unexpected direction. It's fun, man.

Yeah, we do have a lot of fun. So thanks very much. We'll have to do it when the next book is out. I'm sure it'll be back on. Sure. Do it. Come back. So make sure people check you out, check out the courses.

I think you're one of the best at teaching this stuff. Podcast obviously is free, but other than that, Simon, my man, appreciate you as always. Thanks. Thanks for having me. I have a brand new book called Make Money Easy. And if you're looking to create more financial freedom in your life, you want abundance in your life,

and you want to stop making money hard in your life, but you want to make it easier, you want to make it flow, you want to feel abundant, then make sure to go to makemoneyeasybook.com right now and get yourself a copy. I really think this is going to help you transform your relationship with money this moment moving forward. We have some big guests and content coming up. Make sure you're following and stay tuned to the next episode on the school of greatness. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey

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