The School of Greatness - The Hidden Cost of Success Nobody Talks About | Rainn Wilson

Episode Date: March 27, 2026

Rainn Wilson built one of the most beloved characters in television history and still woke up most days feeling like he was not enough. He opens up about the painful truth that becoming famous on The Office only amplified the emptiness he already carried, moving from a three on his inner peace scale before the show to barely a four or five during its peak seasons. Rainn traces how unprocessed grief, ego, addiction, and a relentless hunger for more kept him stuck in a cycle of dissatisfaction no amount of success could break. He shares how it was not until his late forties that he genuinely began to believe the words he had been saying for a decade, that he was enough, and how the death of his father, deep therapy work, and a committed spiritual practice finally gave him the foundation he had been chasing through achievement. This conversation is a permission slip to stop measuring your inner life by outer results and start tending the garden inside yourself that no one can take from you. Rainn’s books: Soul Boom: Why We Need a Spiritual Revolution Soul Boom Workbook: Spiritual Tools for Modern Living Soul Boom website Soul Boom podcast In this episode you will: Discover why fame, money, and success made Rainn equally as unhappy as being broke, and what that reveals about the real source of contentment. Understand how ungrieved pain silently drives the ambition, addiction, and comparison that keep you stuck in cycles of dissatisfaction. Learn the spiritual framework Rainn uses, drawn from Buddhism, the Baha'i Faith, and positive psychology, to move through disappointment without carrying it forward. Recognize the difference between saying an affirmation and actually beginning to believe it, and what consistent inner work looks like over years, not weeks. Explore how reparenting your inner child and building a daily gratitude and contemplation practice can shift your baseline from chronic discontent to genuine peace. For more information go to https://lewishowes.com/1907 For more Greatness text PODCAST to [phone] Follow The Daily Motivation for essential highlights from The School of Greatness More SOG episodes we think you’ll love: Lewis Howes [SOLO Self Love Episode] Eckhart Tolle Josh Groban Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy!Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Before we got on here, we talked about what would make this powerful. And you said, you know, diving into personal authenticity, really, diving into more personal matters. I'm curious, when was the most pain that you faced emotionally and internally in the last decade? Was it during the pandemic? Was it when you were on, you know, the office? Was it after the office? Was it before then? When was the time where you felt like maybe I should be really happy?

but actually I'm going through some challenge, some suffering, some identity crisis. I love that question. I love that question. I really, really love that question. Let's go. Let's go, baby. Let's go, baby. I will say that so many lights went off in my brain when you asked me that. And because I think it's really important, you know, if you're seeking greatness, it's super important to say like you, like, like you said, to try and be authentic. I was not always authentic. I was a bull-ableness. Really?

For most of my life. I was an addict. I was a people-pleaser. I just wanted to entertain. I was like the class clown. I just wanted people to like me. And I was in constant comparison with other people. So that's something that I've struggled with.

Really? really is trying to bring as much authenticity and integrity to my interactions as possible and to be vulnerable. Because if you want greatness, and I've just been reading and listening to your book and really enjoying it. And I'm going to switch the complimentary tables on you and just say, what I love about your book is there's no book. And here are like takeaways. Like you want to do this? here's what to do. Nothing vague in the book at all. Like here's hooks you can hang your hat on. And I just picture like some young dude trying to make a difference. And your book is like a

Bible, you know? And I really, I really mean that. I've read a lot of like books that are, I won't say it's not self-help, but like motivational. Like motivational kind of leadership, entrepreneurship, or whatever. Yours is bigger than that. And I really appreciate that. But I do think that, when we talked right before the interview, I was saying like, sometimes messages don't get through unless you're really vulnerable and unless you're just as real as possible because there's a lot of those folks out there aspiring to some kind of greatness and some kind of motivation and leadership that are struggling. Yeah. And they have character defects. And they get sad some days. And some days they wake up and they don't want to do a cold plunge at 6.8. Right. Don't want to do a Tony Robbins three-hour work

out in a, you know, like a Mark Wahlberg. 4 a.m. 4 a.m. Yeah, like, um, protein all day. Like, it's hard, you know. So I think it's important to talk about like the struggle. So you, you're leading off with the struggle. So when was the time that was the hardest for you? Well, that's, but I'm going to, I'm getting there. I'm getting there. You let me, I'm going to get there on it. I got you. No, I'm on that. But I will say that two things before the last decade. So my wife and I have a had a lot of struggles and a lot of up and downs, ups and downs over the years. That was some hard stuff, but that was thankfully a while back. But also, like, and I've been thinking about this, too,

like when I was on the office and I had the first, I had been acting for 15 years professionally, and then all of a sudden I was on the office, we almost got canceled, like a dozen different times. And then all of a sudden we take off, we win the Emmy, we're a top 10 show. It becomes, you know, everyone is getting movie deals out of it. And, and I, I, I know, I remember back to that time and how kind of sick I was that I didn't have the spiritual tools that I needed and the psychological tools and resilience that I needed to go through that. Fame is a very weird thing.

That'll you up, number one. Number two, I wasn't happy with what I had. I mean, like, to go from total obscurity to be kind of a weird looking, goofy character actor and all of a sudden get the role of a lifetime. and be lauded and loved and winning awards and whatnot. Like, that's enough, Rain. If I could go back in time to those early years of the office, you know, in 2006, 7, 8. And I was always, and I was like, but I want more.

I want a movie career like Jack Black has or Will Ferrell. Or I want, you know, this, or I want my own media company. Or I want my own success here. All my own development deal here. I want to be the spokesperson for this. Like, I want more money here. Like, like, what, when is it enough? Like, when is it ever just enough?

And I wish I could have just taken a deep breath and be like, this is enough. This is great. I get to do 22 episodes a year, this amazing character. I'm making a really nice living. I won't say, like, I've made it. I want to do more creatively from a business standpoint. But I wish, so when you, when you asked me that, I think about those really troubled times that I should have been enjoying.

And I wasn't able to go to gratitude. Yeah, I mean, I enjoyed my time on the set. And with the cast, they were amazing. And we all got along great. And I love each and every one of them. We were like this wonderful family. We weren't even a dysfunctional family. We were a pretty functional family.

Right, right. We'd come in every day and we would make comedy and get along and high five each other and eat too much from craft services. But, yeah, so I was thinking about that. But then I'm going to go there. And there's a chapter in the book, and it's called Death and How to Live It. And my dad dying two and a half years ago right after COVID started was really devastating for me. My mom left me and my dad when I was about a year and a half. So I stayed with him my whole life.

So my primary bond, I didn't get to know my mom until I was like 15. So my primary bond was with my dad. It was always there for me. We had our ups and downs. We had our struggles and we bumped heads a lot and we didn't see eye to eye a lot. But it was really devastating at a core level to lose him. And it kind of shifted a lot of things about my perspective about life. What was the biggest lesson he taught you while he was here?

And the biggest lesson he's taught you since transitioning into a different way? You're going to make me cry, Lewis. I will say that two lessons. One is, my dad, when he came into a room, always made it a better place. He would always have a positive thing to say. He would always uplift someone. He would tell a joke. He would inspire.

He would compliment. Like, that's a great jacket. And, oh, I love your office. And, oh, the light bulbs are great. and so nice to meet you guys behind the camera. Where are you from? Like, he always had some way to uplift every room he came in. And you know what?

And again, I didn't really appreciate that until he was gone. And when I was thinking of eulogizing him, I was like, what is the single thing that if I could point to one thing that my dad did consistently that made the world a better place? It was, he uplifted every room he went into. And that was really special. Sometimes I'm able to do that, but sometimes I'm... And the other thing, and I put the inscription of my book, and I said, dedicated to my father, and I said, thanks for teaching me about the soul.

And I feel like my dad had a deep understanding from his faith that we are spiritual beings having a human experience that our reality is spiritual. We are heart-based beings and we're in this physical world. We get 80 or 90 years. He got 79 years to go around the sun and to do the best with what we got and to try and leave the world a little bit better than when we came into it. And that perspective has stayed with me my whole life. And I went through a time when I was an atheist and I had rejected faith and all of that nonsense and, you know, religious BS and whatnot. I didn't want anything to do with that for a good decade and a half. But I did always kind of keep with me that, that idea that we are essentially our spiritual beings. That's beautiful. What would you say? That's the biggest lesson

he's taught you since transitioning? Well, that lesson was driven home when I saw him on the table of a hospital bed and it was just like one of those medical shows where they were doing open heart surgery. He had to do quadruple bypass and they had to take a vein to put it in

and they couldn't find a vein that wasn't affected by his arterial sclerosis. So he was 12 hours and they couldn't save him. Oh, man. And you were there for it? Yeah. Like parts of it or a couple of words here and there. It was the weirdest thing because it was during COVID.

You could only have one guest, one visitor. So I went in in the morning before the surgery and we hung out for like an hour. I was sure he was going to, this operation has a 90%, 95% success rate. So you're like, I'll see him soon. I'll see you soon. Wow. And I literally was like, I literally hugged him. We were visiting.

It was like, you're going to be great, dad, love you. I went and play pickleball. Wow. I went to Hobby Lobby and got some supplies. And then all of a sudden, we're like, wonder how that's going. And then we got a very concerned call at like 12 or 1 o'clock. And we're like, oh. And then we had to wait another six hours before we kind of found out the situation.

And but he was still barely alive but losing his blood pressure. He had some kind of blood sepsis and it was the kind of thing of like deciding to essentially unplug him. But the doctor was like, listen, he's going to be dead within the hour. And it was like one of those hospital shows where it was like squeaky doctor's shoes on the linoleum floor. White coats and gloves and math. And white coats beeping machines and beep, beep.

And that ventilator is going. No way. And it was incredibly sad. It was weeping. And but what is the kind of bounty that comes out of it? What's the takeaway? His body is lying there on the table. And I see little things about him the way his hair sticks up here and there

and the way his ears are and his kind of ruddy cheeks and his kind of old man hands. And and I, and it hit me like, oh, that's not my father. That's not my father. That is the vessel that carried my father for 79 years. I'm looking at this vessel once the heart had stopped. But that's not the reality of who he is. And that goes hand in hand with that lesson. So that's what he's kind of taught me upon his passing.

Again, just really solidify that. the light that we all have, the, the emotion, the love that we bring, the, you know, that, the spirit that we bring to interacting with one another. That's our reality, you know, this body houses us and we should take care of it and maximize it and, and love it, and it's part of who we are, but it's not all of who we are. Wow. Yeah, it's interesting. lost my dad last year. And it was, it's been an interesting year of knowing that he's no longer physically in this world. I don't know if that's something that you've been experiencing. It's like,

okay. Do you get a thing? Sometimes you're like, I'm going to text my dad or I got to call him and you, and you, and you think about it. And then you're like, I want to, well, here's a thing. I had a, you know, it's kind of a tragic experience because he had a, a car accident, I guess 18 years ago now that he had a severe brain trauma. So he was in a coma for a few months after that. He eventually woke up. He shouldn't have made it, but he survived. And he kind of lived 17 years, you know, in his home watching TV and that was it because he didn't have the ability to work anymore. He lost his memory. He wasn't, he could walk and talk some, but it wasn't, wasn't the same. Yeah. So it was like, he always had to ask me, why, didn't you go, didn't you play football?

even though he was at every football game. You know, he'd forgive me, my name sometimes, and he'd just kind of have to like remind him every time you saw him telling him the same story where he'd be like, oh, yeah, that's right. He just didn't have the spirit that he once had. And so it was kind of a 17 years of a loss. He was physically here, but emotionally not here.

And then when he passed, it was almost like I finally could grieve for the first time because I wasn't able to really grieve him not being around, but physically being here because I didn't have those conversations with him. So that was challenging. I almost have more peace now that he has passed, but I still look back at my 21-year-old self in sadness for him that he didn't get to have really the father that was there for.

And how much did that motivate you that he was in this kind of half-life in a way? When it happened, I was, I was, I had just gotten through an injury playing college football. The night he got in the accident, the next day I had a football game. And we didn't know if he was alive or dead. And so my siblings were like, I was like, what do we do? He was in New Zealand. I was in Ohio.

He was on vacation. And I was like, do I play? Do I not play? Like, what would he want me to do? I don't know. I ended up playing. On the second and the last play of the game, I broke three ribs, actually, in that game. And I thought, okay.

my season's over. I don't know if my dad's alive still or if he's dead. What do I do now? When he came back, I got very clear that life is finite. Like it could happen in a moment like this. Like I got injured. My career could be over in a moment. He got injured. His life could be over in a moment. So I made a decision that day that I'm always going to go after my dreams no matter what. And I'm going to do the best to have joy in my life and fun in my life and play. So I went after everything. And even though I was afraid, I didn't let the fear hold me back because I was like, my dad was large in the life. And if this could happen to him in a moment, then if my life is over tomorrow, at least I want to enjoy this day in this moment. And so it gave me a lot of permission

to go after what I wanted. Now, for a couple years after football was done, I was living on my sister's couch for a year and a half. And I had no way to make money. I was struggling in 2008. I was broke. Hadn't graduated college yet. You should have called me, man. I was on the office. There we go. I wish I'd know you that.

Yeah. And I remember, here's the thing about, I guess, losing my father early on. There was no one to rely on. It was like I had to step up into becoming somewhat of a man for myself at that point in terms of like, okay, I've got to learn how to make money. I've got to learn how to do my taxes. They've got to learn how to do these things. I can't just ask my dad for money as a 22-year-old anymore. And so in a way, it gave me courage and permission to kind of do the thing that I'm doing now.

I don't think I'd be doing what I'm doing if he didn't get in that accident then. I don't think I would have the courage. And so in some ways, I think it was meant to happen. Wow. And before he left, the day before he left, I was sitting with him and there was something off about him. It was really weird. I'd never seen this. And it was almost like he knew this was going to happen.

Wow. And he told me before he left, I'm going to go on a spiritual journey. And it was kind of weird because I was like, huh, okay, yeah, have fun, dad. Like, you're going to New Zealand, you've wanted to do this for a while. He's like, yeah, but I'm going to take my books.

I'm going to practice. And when I go deeper into my books on a spiritual journey, Bible and the science and health, which was always practicing Christian science at the time. I was like, I hope you have a great time. And so when I got the call that he got in his accident, I was like, yeah, I think he predicted this. And we all needed to,

go on this kind of spiritual journey in this material world when this happened. But it's been interesting since his passing because it feels weird not being able to know that my father is here. And it sounded like you had a pretty good relationship with your father, right, for many years. Yeah, we did. At least you were in conversation. Yeah. And so when you have that and then there's a loss or it's not there anymore, how have you been able to spiritually and emotionally cope with that? loss physically. You know, it really has to do with grief and the grieving process, which is not something we talk a lot about in Western culture. But it's just, it's, I had to learn how to grieve. So, you know, this good year and a half after he died, I would just sometimes burst

into tears. I'll never forget my assistant, just came by my office once and I, I just, I've seen some picture of him or something like that. I was just sobbing. My sister walked in and he was like, hey, do you want to? Oh. And it's like, it's like, it's okay. I'm just crying because my dad died. He's like, oh, okay, I'll come back.

I'm like, it's all right. I'm like, oh, oh, wow. But you grieve so that you can go through, you know. And if you don't grieve and you don't learn how to grieve, you get stuck. And that's a good life lesson. Put that in your next. Right. Look and smoke it.

Exactly. But I think that there's a lot of truth to that. Like, we have to, in fact, I had, I've been playing a lot of tennis and I'm on this like USTA tennis team and we compete and stuff like that. And I'm not very good. But I'm getting better, but I remember those, taking lessons with this tennis teacher named Zach Climann. And he's here in L.A.

And we actually interview him in the Geography of Bliss show because we do an episode in L.A. And he said, like, every mistake you make. like, you know, you've got a clear ball and boom, you hit it in the net or something like that. Like, grieve it. Like, grieve the loss. Grieve the loss. The miss.

Grieve the miss. Really? And he's like, feel it. And then you're through it. And then you're on. And then you're like, okay, what can I improve next time? And then you're on to the next thing. But if you skip the grief,

you can get stuck. You can get blocked in a kind of like a muscular, self-will, but there's something about like, oh, I got it, I got a, oh, okay, what did I do? Oh, I took my eye off the ball or, oh, I didn't go low to high, or I got ahead of myself, you know, just keep breathing. Okay, I got this one. And then you're back and you're, and you're ready to go. But his philosophy is, uh, that's interesting, to grieve the mistakes. Do you think, um, you understood how to grieve when you were kind of rising in the fame with the office and kind of kind of those years with those seasons. Did you understand grief? I didn't, I didn't understand that.

And how did you process frustration, pain, anger? Not very well. Yeah, I didn't process it very well. I had a lot of addiction issues in my 20s and went through drug and alcohol phase, porn phase, kind of anything that could kind of help me cope and help kind of medicate discomfort and pain I used for a long period of time until I really have been, you know, in active, like therapy and recovery and all that nonsense for a good while now. And, you know, it's so interesting because when you choose to be an actor, you're signing up for disappointment. So if you're an accountant, not much disappointment. Every life comes with disappointments, but you're going to have your, you know, 27 clients or your 12 clients or whatever. And you can have a success.

business for 50 years and just be a good accountant and you won't. But actor, you're constantly putting yourself out there like, hey, I'm auditioning for this. Pick me. Choose me. Here's the script. Or, hey, can we get this? And then you do get to make, you know, a movie or something like that. And then it gets canceled or it bombs or, and I've been involved in plenty of those. So it's, it's been an interesting learning dance. And it took me until, oh, I don't know, my mid, late 40s to kind of learn how to live with a kind of constant disappointment and frustration. And so this lesson comes back, which is grieve the disappointment, feel disappointed, feel frustrated, be, ugh, like, you know, and then, and then move on.

And then how do we fix it? But you have to go through that feeling before you move on, I believe. What is it, I mean, what was it like not being famous and then being famous? And were you happier before or happier after? That's so interesting. It's for someone who has had, you know, addiction issues and alcohol issues and and then kind of a messed up family situation and essentially spending most of my adult life feeling unlovable.

And then you get on a TV show. And then the weirdest thing happens, Lewis. All of a sudden, I'll never forget it. Like getting famous from the office, like, people coming up and going, I love you. You're like, so like they're touching you and they're grabbing like hugging you. Take photos with you. Oh, I love you. My daughter loves you.

My son loves you. We love like there's all this. But it's not really love. They really love getting entertained by the character that I play. which is one small cog in this big machine called The Office. So that is a mind trip. I would say if you are unhappy and you are wired for unhappiness and you are making life choices that kind of keep you in an unhappy mode,

ungrateful mode, uncontent mode, a discontent mode, it doesn't matter what the circumstances are. You're going to be unhappy. and discontent and imbalanced. Even if you're famous and have money and people want opportunities with you and you have more followers and all that stuff. We think that that's going to solve our problems. And guess what?

That kind of contentment, that kind of like true, that solidity of well-being, it can't be fixed from anything outside of yourself. So I was discontent and unhappy and a scrappy, unemployed, broke actor, you know? Yeah. And trying to make my next rent. In fact, I would say about, I don't know, nine months before I got cast on the office, like, we were so broke that I had to pay rent by putting it on my credit card. And was this 2005, six? Yeah, four, that was like late 2003, early 2004.

And so if you're discontent, you'll be happy. no matter what the circumstances. So then I become famous, and then I have all those money. And movie opportunities and lots of doors opening for me all of a sudden for the first time in my life, you know, heads of movie studios are like, we want to really meet with Rain Wilson. We love his stuff. And maybe there's a movie he can do. So those doors started open.

But if you're in chronic discontent and feeling like I don't have enough, I am not enough, and I don't have enough, it doesn't matter what comes out. you can all of a sudden say someone come up and say by the way you're the king of Scotland we just found the paperwork here's the king here's your own kingdom and here's a billion dollars good luck like you would find a way to be unhappy right so so are you more unhappy happier before when you were I was I read on a credit card or happier after I was equally unhappy well I was equally unhappy so I tell you it was nice to pay off my student loans yeah I just have a little money and I'm not

going to lie. That's an important part of the deal is to when you don't have to worry about when and how you're going to pay bills, and I know you've been there, that's a big go. Yeah, that's nice. That is a big deal. Some happiness experts are kind of like, oh, none of that matters. Like, no, it matters. Yeah, of course. But yeah, I was, I would say if you looked at me, you know, 2001, 2003, I was pretty unhappy and dissatisfied. And then I got the office. And then I got the office. us and there was a big rush, but if you cut, cut into me in 2006, 7, 8, right in there, nine, those were some pretty unhappy years at the same time. Wow, wow.

So on a scale, let's call it the self-love, inner peace scale. Yeah. One to 10, one being miserable and zero happiness, and 10 being total peace inside itself, love. Where were you before and after? I would say I was at a three and then maybe two, a four. or five once I was well known and then and then it's it's been a long struggle and and now I you know I'm doing much better yeah where would you say you are now I would say

it's a daily struggle and I have to do daily work but I'm I'm really at an eight last great maybe nine yeah I'm when do you feel the most loved and the most enough I think in my contemplation practice my mindfulness practice my meditation practice. I view meditation as something like when your computer is acting all funky and you have to reboot it and like the apps aren't working right and the pages and then you reboot it and go and then all of a sudden like it's moving smoothly again. Like my meditation practice allows me that. I also combine that with a prayer practice. I do believe in God. I believe that there are, there is an incredible divine force out there for us to tap into that is the source of of love itself

I would equate God much more to just the force of love which is synonymous with the force of gravity than any kind of like guy or dude or deity or some old man with a beard or someone you know like a marvel superhero shooting their you know like I'm going to give Lewis this thing and I'm going to give him this parking spot. I'm going to give her cancer. And like, like, so when I'm able to kind of tap into that force of love, when I'm able to, you know, Annie Lamont, a great thinker and writer, humorist, she wrote a book called Help, Thanks, Wow.

And those are the three prayers, help, thanks, and wow. I think it's so brilliant. I love that book so much. So simple. But when you're connecting with that great. spirit, like help, like, hey, I could really use help with this. I'm struggling with this. Perfectly okay.

And thank you, thank you for what I have. Thank you for the gratitude. And then just, wow, like the miracle of being alive, the miracle of everything. Wow. What do you wish people knew about money, fame, and success, and also how to create and feel enough and happy with all three of those as well? Well, if I knew the answer to that, I would write my own bestselling book, Lewis. Do you feel like you...

So that's a constant journey for you to figure out how to manage those things and also find that peace and happiness and self-acceptance for yourself? And also, I'm curious, do you feel like there are anyone in Hollywood or any celebrities with, you know, fame and money and success who have mastered this? And also finding, like, true deep sense of, I am enough. I don't need to compare myself to others and one-up everyone else in Hollywood or in the success world. I have enough. I am enough. I'm becoming more, but I don't need it to feel more enough. Yeah. Some of the most unhappy people I've met have been multi-millionaires in Hollywood. And on both sides of the cameras, like directors, writers, actors, big stars, agents. A friend of mine told me, like, if you're ever,

in an airport and you're just looking for the gate of people flying to LA and you didn't look on the board, just look for the gate with the most beautiful people who also look the most miserable. There you go. It's kind of true. Wow. Yeah, there's so much to talk about to unpack around that. I mean, gosh, I think that number one, it's really important to understand for people to understand that there is a lot of struggle going on and people might really present well on social media and on talk shows and in their books and whatnot, but people are struggling. And, you know, big, I'm not saying I'm a big star, but like big stars that I know that are, you know, very successful. They really have struggles. They've struggles in interpersonal relationships and, and in doubt and

self-esteem. And I feel like the road to self-love is just a road through struggles. You know, this brings me to this Buddhist idea, and I talk a lot about this in Soul Boom. I reference Buddhism a lot because I've learned so much from studying it. But the Buddha has, as you know, the four noble truths, which are kind of the foundation of Buddhist thought and the elimination of suffering. So one of the key, not the only thing the Buddha came for, but the Buddha came to help relieve suffering. So life is suffering. That's the number one truth. Life is suffering. It's interesting because in Sanskrit, the word is actually ducca. I don't know if I'm pronouncing it right. But ducca means dissatisfaction. It means struggle, conflict, overwhelm,

light pain. It's like the, it's just the pain of being alive. So I would interpret it as saying, like, life is about the pain of being alive. And when you know that, I find that very helpful to me. When I come back to that, I'm like, I'm struggling, I'm disappointed here. I wish this outcome had been different. Oh, I didn't get that job. And then, but when I can come back to like, oh, but that's what life's all about. So what do I do now? Like, oh, am I clutching?

Am I grasping? Am I wanting to control outcomes? And am I wanting people to like me? Am I wanting all this stuff outside of me? And I'm desperately grasping at all that stuff. Oh, that's the source of. my suffering. Because when you're in that kind of Zen mode, you can be like, oh, life is suffering. And guess what? All these things didn't happen. And I get to feel disappointment. It's like a

breath. You know, it's like in the tennis game. It's like, oh, a disappointment breath. And then a new breath. And then the next play. And then the next, exactly. And then you're on, you're on to the next play. But you don't carry that disappointment with you. But you don't stuff it down somewhere and stick it in the closet. You don't not acknowledge it. You acknowledge it. And then you move on. Exactly. You refocus. You refocus. You breathe it, you experience it, and then you move on, and you heal in the doing. What do you think you, if you could have told yourself three things about what you're about to go through with the office and all the things that came with it, all the amazing things and maybe the more amplified, challenging things that you face as well, what do you wish you could have told yourself the day before, you know, getting that role or the day before the first, you know, time on set to be able to manage it. all and love yourself deeper?

Or did you just need more time to kind of... So I'm going to get a little mystical. It might be a little mystical for your audience. I'm in. I'm in. Okay. So I'm a member of the Baha'i faith. So the son of the founder of the Baha faith is a man named Abdul Baha.

And his name means servant of glory. Anyways, Abdul Baha about 100 years ago, came to the United States. And a reporter wanted to interview this famous prophet and was like, hey, do Baha'is believe in Satan? And Abdu Baha said, yes, we do. Satan is the insistent self. And I just love that. So as opposed to like a red guy with a pitch four, underneath the ground, under the ground, like we spring in your ears and causing you temptation and he's like the forces of darkness. He's got his demon army or whatever. Like, It's in here. It's in here. The insistent self. What does that mean? Well, it's the ego, you know. So, and that goes back, again, to Buddhist thought. It goes back to the most ancient spiritual writings in the world of Vedas and the Upanishads and the Vedantic practice and Tibetan Buddhism where your struggle is the ego, right? And in Islam, jihad, the greater jihad is the struggle within yourself. The lesser jihad is like if there's enemies that are attacked, you, you fight those enemies, but the jihad that everyone is fighting is that struggle within ourselves against our own ego. So this idea of struggling against because the ego, what is the

ego get? And again, ego is tough because we want to help healthy self-esteem. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about that part of yourself that is like envious and competitive to a fault and wants to put your to, it's a narcissistic part of yourself, wants to put yourself above someone else. It compares yourself to others that wants to like obtain and get and try and satisfy itself like a dragon with its hoard. And so I would have maybe shown myself some some writings about the struggle with the ego if I'm cutting back to 2005, 2006 and those years. I had a lot of, I had a lot of ego struggles, and even though I had done a lot of thinking and meditating and reading about spiritual practices and and mindfulness and whatnot, I was not able to put that in play. So it just became life after the office became, you know, like a Pachink, you know, Pachinko machine.

You know, the little ball goes, you know, like that. Like my life and my ego became like a Pachinko machine where it's like this success and here's a bunch of money and you get this movie. Oh, the movie bombed, oh, you get a different one, and this one, this, and all they want to do, and you won this award, and oh, you lost the Emmy to Jeremy Piven, and oh, this is it. So it's like, so it's all of the stuff outside of yourself, but where is that, where's that garden that we can nurture and grow within ourselves? Because that garden you can take with you anywhere. Yeah. When did you feel like you actually got into that space of practicing it? you know, how many years it'd take for you to finally be like, okay, you know, this pinball machine is going everywhere,

ups and downs, like success and ego and fame and losses. When you start to say, oh, this is all happening outside of me. Yeah. But let me start to nurture and tend to this garden inside of me for more peace and inner prosperity, not outer prosperity. I'm going to be really honest with you. I know I don't look at. I'm 57 years old.

Great, man. 48, 49 is when that started. When I was really able to put into practice some of the spiritual guidance that I had been studying, some of the therapeutic and positive psychology studies that I'd been studying. And for those, and I want to say, for those watching at home, that might have a problem with spirituality or God or religion, and first of all, spirituality and religion are totally separate thing, not totally separate, but they are separate things. Then that's fine. Put that aside. And there's a wonderful reservoir

of information that you have drawn on on all 1,400 of your episodes from the positive psychology movement. And so positive psychology always arrives at the same data points that ancient wisdom from faith traditions arrives at goes through a different way. But one, you can learn a great deal from following what, you know, great teachers, you know, like, you know, Jonathan Haidt has the happiness hypothesis and so many great books on happiness and podcasts on happiness and well-being, and Arthur Brooks and David Brooks and all the Brooks. there's you those it's the same wisdom it's just kind of packaged a little sure sure well so about eight nine years ago is when you kind of started to you know

tend to your inner garden isn't that pathetic it's not pathetic i should have had it at 33 okay jesus yeah i think um you know i wish i got to learn these things a lot sooner as well but it wasn't really until two years ago when i felt a sense of peace in my heart that i haven't never felt. Wow. And when I hit 38, I just turned 40. What happened there? I only felt peace when I was single. But when I was in relationships, I felt trapped and I felt a sense of not enoughness and never going to be able to live up to someone's standards and people pleasing and all these things that you mentioned as well, similar things. And I never... Sounds like a little codependence going on there, too. Yeah. And it was, you know, I was afraid because my parents were trapped. And so I grew up

watching a model of them not really accepting or loving one another. And I didn't know which night if it was going to be like peaceful or chaotic. You know, every night you just didn't know how they were going to be screaming or reacting or cold shoulders. So I just didn't have a healthy model. I don't blame them. It all developed me in a certain way to be a curious learner of this and try to like support others going through the same challenge. It's one of the reasons why I left home at 13 because I was like give me out of here. It was just very up and down chaotic at home. My brother was also in prison for four and a half years when I was eight,

to I was 12. So it was just like a lot of sadness, grief, loss, pain within the family dynamic. And I know lots of families go through their own unique family dynamic of dysfunction. So this was just my own perspective. And I just went after a few. as opposed to being the feeling. I went after wanting something and desiring people and then needing to make sure that it worked out and going all in on it, even when I had to change who I was to try to make them, quote unquote, happy. The partners I chose were never happy with me. They didn't

accept me for who I was. And I don't blame them. I chose them for a reason. I needed to learn the lessons. And it wasn't until I became fully peaceful and happy and on a healing journey of who I was and everything about my past, really grieving all the different parts of me, that's when I felt peace. Going back to the first thing you talked about, which was grieving, I did about, I don't know, nine months of inner child healing of therapy and, you know, I'm sorry to interrupt, I want to please go ahead, pick it up from there. But I just want to say, like, see, I think this is super important that you can share with your

audience, your struggle. And to say, here I am not really kind of figuring out how to be at peace in a relationship until my late 30s. I don't have it all figured out. I struggle. I think that's, I think that's so great that you're, that you're willing to share that.

I share, I don't hear all the time about all my struggles. I kind of, and like the guinea pig of breakdowns. You know, I love that. Here's how I'm suffering and struggling and what I'm, you know,

working out with my health, relationships, money, spirituality. So you talk about the inner child work? Did you do some therapeutic? Yeah, nine years, nine months I was like, I had a screen,

a screensaver on my phone of my five-year-old self. you know, not from a narcissistic point of view. Like, oh, look at me as a kid, but more of like, oh, look how sad I was. And look how much I was suffering and unsure myself I was and always asking why am I even here, what's the point of this? And just getting into trouble a lot. And so having compassion for my five, six, you know, seven, eight year old self and putting

myself in the mystical situations spiritually where I'm there having a conversation and comforting my five-year-old self as a 38-year-old adult with the wisdom and experience that I have now. Yeah. Those experiences reunited me with a broken memory, a memory of mine that was broken, bruised, and hurt, psychologically, emotionally, spiritually. And this allowed me to create harmony and congruency with the parts of myself that I was most ashamed of. This was also the time when I was sexually abused by a man that I didn't know. five years old. My second memory is of being sexually abused in a bathroom by a man that I didn't

know. And I never grieved that, like you said, going back to grieving. I never even acknowledged it for 25 years. It wasn't until 10 years ago when I started to open up and talk about that and process it with support. That released a pressure valve within me that had been building up for 25 years, which drove me to be to excel in athletics and business and getting results. So it's like, I'm going to prove them wrong. No one's going to hurt me ever again. But by not acknowledging or grieving the pain and the sadness of the five-year-old, the nine-year-old, the 13-year-old, the 27-year-old, you know, and all these different breakdowns I had. And always going to the next point without grieving the loss, it caused, um,

many breakdowns in my life physically, relationally, financially. When on the outside things looked good, but on the inside it was a one, two, or three. Wow. That's powerful. And so 10 years ago, right when I started the show, was a part of that journey of healing

and finding people that could share their stories so I could try to learn from them and apply some of these lessons. But two years ago, specifically, is when I went even deeper, because I was just, I was really struggling in a previous relationship. And so I did about six months of intensive weekly therapy of healing the inner child within

myself. That's great. And then doing it from the different parts of my childhood from 12 to 18 and 27, kind of marrying all those memories, creating new meaning from them into where I'm at now. That's what allowed me. There was a moment after about, I don't know, six or seven months of this therapy practice I was doing. What was it called? It's just working with a coach.

Okay. Therapist, yeah. And but it was just very intense. I was doing like seven, eight hour sessions, you know, on Saturdays. I was just like, I need to figure this out. I'll do whatever it takes. I'm sick of pain. I'm sick of the suffering.

Tell me what to practice, try, do all of, whatever you want to do, I'll do it. Okay. Let me, let me tell you. Yeah, yeah. Can I tell you a story along those same lines? People are watching. I were like, when did Lewis turn into Oprah? So when I was struggling a lot, there's a while back, I went to this therapy retreat center called PCS and Scottsdale.

And I did a couple different weeks there in different kinds of sessions and different kinds of work. One of the things they have you do there, not for everyone, but they do inner child work. It's therapy 12 hours a day. You stay off site, but you're in, and it's very intense. Wow. They have you on the first day, go to the mall. to the Build Bear Workshop, and you build your inner child. Shut up.

So I went and I built my inner child as a bear. I love this. And you name it. That's beautiful. And you have conversations and you carry it with you the entire week. That is a beautiful exercise. The entire week. It's like kind of embarrassing, like, because I was like walking around with this.

Here's the thing. A lot of people that are watching or listening, they've heard me talk about this stuff for a while. But if there's, I'm always trying to be a Trojan horse. You know, you look at me. I'm this big, like, you know, jock-looking guy, 6-4, you know, former athlete, all these different things. And I try to draw. Dufous looking, look like an IQ of 13, like farm hand kind of. My IQ was pretty low. My EQ is high, my IQ is very low. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. But the goal is to, the goal has always been to draw people in that want success, that want greatness, that want, you know, money, all these different things and talk about these things, but also talk about the healing modalities. that allow you to feel peaceful and enough when you have the championship, when you have the money, when you have the role at the office,

because, you know, I was great at sports and accomplished a lot, but I'd never felt I loved myself or that I was lovable, kind of like what you talked about. Then I transitioned into making money and building a business and I built a multimillion dollar company and all these different things, but I still didn't feel lovable. So I was like, well, how do I get to this place where I can actually accept and love me.

And so this process, which sounds similar, but I love the idea of having a physical representation of your inner child. That is a beautiful experience. And I'm assuming you had conversations and did exercises and did some weird things that left. If people were watching, they'd be like, okay, you're a crazy man. And if someone was doing it and left and left their inner child,

like on the couch or even went to like go get a cup of calls, coffee and left it. They would, the therapist be like, what the fuck are you doing? You're going to leave your child there? Like, and it was this training of like, wow, I and heart, and when I was a child, I was so vulnerable and I suffered so much trauma and pain. But guess what? I get to re-parent myself. Man, this is a beautiful. I get to hold my own hand. Oh my God. And I get to see baby Rain, baby Lewis, and give him the love that he didn't get when his mom took off when he's a year and a half old in dysfunctional dad was stuck with this big, weird looking toddler, you know?

And I get to be part of that process. And it was really powerful. This is a lot of really intense stuff. Here's the thing. When I was 21, if I would have watched this conversation or heard this, I'd have been like, what a bunch of, you know, a bunch of wusses. Suck it up.

Don't be such a baby, right? I said, like, whatever, because I was just in more of an ego mindset. and I'd have been like, just tell me how to make money. Just tell me to be happy. Just tell me to like, just I want to be successful. Yeah. Just teach me that.

Like, touch what are those steps? What are those skills? And I hope people watching or listening, you know, specifically men, if you're watching or listening, that you can just listen and hear this perspective. You don't have to listen to me, listen to you, and hear this perspective of, I truly believe that the highest form of currency right now is peace. Because you said you can have lots of money and still be miserable and unhappy. The highest form of currency, I think, is peace. Peace with your relationships. Peace with your career choices or the business you have. Peace with your health.

And when we don't have that, it just becomes harder. And so for me, it's figuring out how to stay in congruency in alignment with self and be in a peaceful state, it doesn't mean we're not going to experience stress and challenge and overwhelm and let down and all these things. But doing the best to stay in peace will allow us to feel better, make the people around us feel better and make better decisions in our lives. So I hope people are listening. I hope the women listening share this with their male friends and know it from two different

individuals of different backgrounds, you as the career and, you know, know, in acting and all these different things that you've done in media, me from sports and business, that it matters to make money, but if you're miserable and you're hurting yourself in that process, then it's just amplifying the pain that you already have. And so this is the work in my opinion. Amen. You don't have to go to build a bear and make an inner child, you know, physical representation and hold the bear around all day. But I feel like do something that works for you. Yeah. Do something that works for you. And for me, doing intensive therapy weekly for months supported me. For you, this experience, this two-week experience worked for you. And it's an ongoing journey

of healing from my experience. It doesn't just happen overnight and you're healed. For me, it's an ongoing practice. Yeah. Yeah. That's beautifully, beautifully said, really, and so important. And I love that currency of peace. Like, if you can gain a peace in your inner garden, I like to use that metaphor, and well-being and feel like I am enough. You know, I've shared this before. I actually, our mutual friend, Justin Baldoni, I talked to him about this, that when I was first starting the therapy process,

my therapist was having me say daily affirmations. It gave me a list. Here's a list of like them, and it's just, you know, give me a break. Like what were the few things you remember? It's like, I'm a good father, I'm worthy of love. The first one on the list is, I am enough. Wow.

And I picked it up and I was like, I am enough. Nope. Not doing that. It was so hard for me to look at or to think about saying that. And he's like, well, that's the one that you have to say. It's I had to hang in on the mirror. Every morning I had to get up and brush my teeth and look in the mirror and go, I am enough.

And it's, do you remember Stuart Smalley that that Saturday Live character is like, I'm good enough. Gosh darn it. And I forget the, Al Franken played this character, Stuart Smalley. Insert clip. But it's corny. It's schmaltzy. But it really helped me.

But it also helped me to see like, wow, I really don't believe that I am enough. That's the interesting thing. How do you, because I think when we say a false affirmation that we haven't actually believed yet. Yeah. Sometimes it's like, okay, we're lying to ourselves when you don't believe it. And yet you're looking at it and you're saying it over and over again. So I love that practice, but it's like we have our emotional state has to catch up to it and actually learn how to process, grieve, heal, and actually believe it. So how did you build yourself in your, in overcoming the insecurities or the self-doubt in order to actually believe that you were enough, not just say the affirmation every day?

Well, that's a really good point. And I hadn't thought about that, but I agree with you. I think it can be dangerous to kind of say a bunch of affirmations that you don't really believe. you're going to manifest them, but you don't have that organic, authentic kind of kernel of belief inside your gut. But I think that what it did for me is it kind of, it's kind of like, in the show Kung Fu, which I reference in the book, Soul Boom, is one of my favorite television shows of all time. He's like, when you can snatch the pebble from my hand, then you will be ready to go. And that's a runner through the show. And finally, Kwai Chang Kain is able to snatch the pebble from the hand and he leaves the Shaolin Monastery and goes to the Old West and fights a bunch of racist cowboys. Anyways, another topic. But it's like when you can snatch the pebble from my hand of really

believing I am enough, then you're ready. You know, then you're really ready. So for me, I would say it and I was not getting the pebble. And I recognized, oh, I don't believe that I'm enough. I really don't and I've got work to do. So it was helpful for me to kind of go like, it was, oh my God. I mean, it was a good, it was a good, you know, 10 years of me saying I am enough when I didn't believe it until it started through the work that I was doing to kind of believe it. In the last like eight, nine, 10 years, I've, I really have come to believe that I am enough.

Well, I mean, there's, there's some beauty in this. for people watching and listening that I think there's a lot of people that don't believe there enough, which for me, my mission is to give people the tools, the inspiration, the expertise, the knowledge, the science, the research from others on how they can start to believe in themselves more. I believe self-doubt is the killer of dreams. I think it holds us back from going after what we want. You know, when we doubt ourselves, we lack the courage or even worse, when we accomplish the thing and we don't feel enough, it's like, what will make me feel enough?

I was accomplishing in sports. You were accomplishing in acting and you still weren't feeling enough with like the height of your career with that show, right? It was like, okay, why do I still not feel enough? And I believe when we can overcome that insecurity and doubt, that's when we can start to really step into a beautiful way of it. being and it's been a process on a journey for me. I'm curious, what do you think it was that allowed you to start to believe that you were enough?

After all those years of kind of saying it and practicing it and the modalities and the training, was there one thing that were you like, okay, now I'm starting to feel it. What was that letting go or skill that you learned that's a order that? That's a great question and I wish I had kind of like some nugget, but it just, it just was a It was a shift, you know, it was a lot of work. It was like, you know, it's like you put in the work. You can, you know, use athletics as a metaphor. Like you practice and daily, you just, you practice and you work out it and you fail and

you struggle and you know, there's ups and downs and, you know, it was finding a really good therapist and doing some retreats and doing some reading and working with my wife a lot. I learned a ton from my wife. She's much better at this stuff than I am. and it wasn't kind of like an aha thing. Like, oh, over time, yeah. I just, when I look back on it now, like, oh, yeah, I'm so much more at peace now than I was. And I have been for many years, but when I look back at those years.

Some people might say, Rain, well, I mean, okay, now you can have peace, more peace because you've had, you make all this money and you have this success and you've had your career come true. but, you know, I'm a struggling actor here in L.A. and I'm, you know, barely scraping by, and I get rejected constantly. So do I have to wait that long until I can feel enough? Yes. No.

Wait. No, anyone can do the work. I think that there's a lot to say on that. And also, sorry to cut you out there, do you think you would have been able to accomplish what you accomplished? by feeling you were enough before. So that is an interesting conversation

because for both of us, we felt like we weren't enough. We worked our tails off to kind of prove to the world that we're enough. And we scraped our way up and built careers, right? Me, this weird-looking actor guy. And if I had felt blest out, peaceful, and just content with who I was,

at 24, would I have striven the way I did? Would I have struggled and clawed my way from, you know, unemployed actor in New York City to, you know, Emmy nominated, you know, television show and lots of money? Like, would I have, you know, sometimes, and you see that with so many people that are really driven, there's something kind of broken inside them that goads them on. So I don't, but I do think. I think that, so I don't, I don't know, I don't know what the answer is to that. I don't know what the answer is.

Interesting to reflect on though. Yeah, yeah. It's an interesting conversation to have. You mentioned, you mentioned your wife, how long have you been married? Oh man. Might have get you in trouble here. Yeah. 28 years, 27 years, yeah.

What is the thing you love the most about your wife? I, um, I love so much about my wife. I can't even, I can't even begin to describe that. she has the most beautiful heart and the most beautiful sense of wonder of anyone that I've ever known. Like it can be a poem she's reading, it can be a flower that she sees. It can be, we have all these weird pets, something with one of our animals, the way she loves animals. Like there's this, and to watch her kind of like interact with something and it could be a, you know, a very, a very video on Instagram of like an otter building a castle in the in a kitchen or something. And and,

you know, but her, her, that, that heart centered delight and wonder that she has is, um, really, uh, it's really special. And I get to witness that on a multiple times a day. And I'm, and this goes to, and I'm sure you've talked a lot about it on your show. I haven't list in all 14th. It's August. And it goes to gratitude, which is one of the most powerful forces in the universe. And I'm on a gratitude text chain. So every morning I get up my group of guys.

Really? And five things we're grateful for. Wake up, five things we're grateful for. So it ships that mindset from that Buddhist idea of Dukha, of dissatisfaction, to what we're grateful for. So I get to say that I am grateful for my wife and I get to feel that gratitude every day. Now, could I look at all the things that you? she doesn't do well and that bug me and that annoy me and that we've had a history. Yeah,

of course I could and we all struggle with that in relationships. But, you know, to lead with gratitude, um, doors open. What advice would you give to people in relation, because you were, you've been with her for a while before you, you know, were successful, right? What advice would you give to people in relationships. By the way, she liked being with me back when I was broke a lot better than when I was successful in the office because I went through a couple years ago. I was just kind of a raging. Shirts.

Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. What advice would you give to couples where, you know, maybe one or both of them are starting to like get some notoriety or, you know, followers or success or their business or career is taking off and they're getting a little ego and they're, you know, having some attention from the outside world, what would you share your wisdom on how to set your relationship up for more harmony? And this is where I think spirituality comes into play, because if we are spiritual

beings having a human experience, then we are there in a coupleship to support each other's spiritual journey. Yes. So I get to, I, you know, achieve kind of fame and success. from the office and she gets to support me on my spiritual journey of going through that, the good and the bad. Interesting. Right. And then, you know, she gets, you know, she's an author. She publishes a book. She, she, you know, writes something new. She struggles. I support her on her journey and her successes on her highs and lows. So marriage all too often, I think can feel kind of circumstantial. And it needs to feel, and I think there's a reason why the faith traditions, when you get

married in front of God and like, till death to his part, but like the idea that your, your souls are wedded, you know, and beyond this world, like into eternal worlds, you're going to, there's a companionship there. So it's, it's that spiritual support. And that we're each going to have times when we need more support and we're able to give more. And there's a dance. There's a yin and yang kind of back and forth. That's beautiful. I don't know why I'm curious about this, but who is the person or persons that you respect the most in this business?

The business of Hollywood, the show business, which is kind of like a circus, I feel like. Are there a couple people, you know, and you don't have to throw anyone under the bus who, you know, you don't think is doing well or whatever, but is there a couple people that, whether from the office or since after them, that you really respect, you think they're living life in a great way as well as having a great career,

they've got solid relationships, you feel like they have a strong foundation emotionally. Are there a couple of people you really respect? You know, it's, as you were asking that question, I was like, oh, Steve Krell. And then I was like, well, really know it's more of Jenna. And then I was like, well, Angela's like, and I was like, well, you know, John Krasinski does pretty day. And I was like, BJ does. And so I really have to say, shout out to my office cast members.

Like that entire cast, I really admire and respect how they live their lives in Hollywood and the choices that they make. Steve puts family first. And he is, he's a very kind of shy and reserved guy. and really cherishes his privacy, but works hard on his marriage and the life of his family. Jenna and Angela are the same way. But I really admire the way Jenna and Angela just give joy to people. They love to just spread joy and positivity in their work.

And John, you know, who's really taken off as a director and an actor and all kinds of things like, again, his family first. absolutely his wife and daughters and he the way that he kind of keeps his ego in check and is able to really focus on doing some really great and lasting work and I admire the whole office cast I know I'm not trying to cop out like um but they all um have things that I that I admire and that I've learned from that's cool I think when we met I think it was six years ago actually is what they were saying but uh I think when you walked in the studio, my other studio,

one of the first things you said is, you look like John Cresensky. I think you said it six years ago. So you still pretty close with a lot of that group? Is that a family that's still close? Like everyone's kind of like still in contact? Yeah, we text all the time. We have text chains and-

That's nice. Talks with each other and celebrating each other's wins. That's amazing. Absolutely. Yeah. That's great. Because I'm assuming you could be with on a show or on a movie set for a few months and, and act like you're really bonding.

but then everyone goes off to their next project or thing and then you kind of lose touch, right? Yep, yep, yep. But you guys have stayed together. We have. We have. That's amazing. Yeah.

I'm really excited about this book, Soul Boom, why we need a spiritual revolution, because I feel like there's a lot of sadness and suffering like we've talked about in the world. And anytime someone wants to open up about spirituality, which I think is really about having a deeper relationship with self-acceptance, self-love with yourself, and with the universe.

I think it's exciting. So I'm so glad that you're talking about this and that this book is out. I'm curious, what is the spiritual lesson? Because you mentioned you were atheist for a while and you know, you've gone through your faith journey. What was the spiritual lesson you learned as a kid that maybe you let go over for God or rejected,

but have now come back to accept? Well, it's so funny that you mentioned that because that's how I start the book is, comparing the spiritual journey to two of my favorite television shows from the 1970s, which I experienced as a kid, and I've done a lot of reflecting back on, which is Kung Fu, like I talked about, which is Kwai Chang Kain, going through the Rough and Tumble West as a Shaolin monk. He's half Chinese, and he's, and he experiences a lot of racism and a lot of violence and

aggression and he takes his eastern wisdom and teaches people's lessons. And he also kicks ass when he needs to. You know, with Kung Fu, there's going to be a couple of fights per episode, which everyone waited, we all waited for with bated breath. And that I compare to like our personal, spiritual journey. So you, Lewis, you've talked to 1,400 people, you've gained this wisdom, this insight, but then you go out in the world and you have your girlfriend and your family and you're navigating the world and trying to use your wisdom better yourself, continue you're doing your therapy work, you're trying to make yourself a better person, increase your positive qualities, your divine qualities, your spiritual qualities, some could say of compassion and kindness and love, right?

So that's that path. My other favorite TV show from the 70s was Star Trek. So Star Trek, I see as also a spiritual journey, not on an individual level, but on a collective level. because people forget that in Star Trek, the mythology is there's been a huge World War III. And out of the ashes of that terrible conflagration, humanity has succeeded and thrived and overcome its past divisions. There is, I don't want to get anyone upset, there is a one-world government. So a lot of people who are like, oh, there's one-world government.

Like, well, Star Trek. Pretty successful. A federation, one world government. I'm all for it. But we've overcome racism. We've overcome sexism. There's no more income inequality. Technology has allowed us to have, what do they call it, the little things where you can make a bowl of soup or you can, they're replicator and you can get anything out of it. So technology has taken us to a point where then humanity is able to seek out new life and new civilizations and spread technology and peace. in connection throughout the universe and be filled with wonder and whatnot. And, you know, I don't think Gene Roddenberry intended the show to be spiritual. I think it was, you know, about technology, the wonders of technology from the 60s and 70s. But really, humanity has matured, right? And even when you get to Star Trek the next generation, there's no conflict anymore. And then Roddenberry insisted when they were doing Star Trek the next generation,

like humanity at this point because that was further than the original series that they're they not be in conflict so you don't see picard and number one like arguing or no we should go over there no Picard you idiot we're not shouldn't land there we should like they humanity has like figured out that's matured beyond even conflict so um this is I get into a lot of stuff in the book I get into death consciousness the meaning of life I have a whole chapter on God called the notorious GOD. I talk about sacredness, looking for the holy in our lives. Religion, the purpose of religion, is religion good or bad? Why is there a religion? But a lot of it towards the tail end of the book is really about this Star Trek journey. Because when a lot of people think about spirituality, they think about cultivating serenity and finding and quelling anxiety and finding beauty and some purpose and some connection,

but it's here in the heart. And that's very important. And that's where you've got to start, and it's really important. But we also have a spiritual journey collectively on planet Earth to try and make the world a better place. And for example, you think about compassion. Like, that's something we can get better at is compassion, right? Feeling for other people. people. You know, whenever I'm at my worst, I'm not in compassion. I'm like, oh, that screw him. Oh, that's, that's what, you know, like, you can be judgmental and like, oh, those idiots, why didn't they do that and they should just do, you know, and. But when I'm able to increase my compassion, say, ah, we're all in this human struggle together. Oh, those poor people.

like imagine just how much an increase of compassion could help us as a species move forward on the planet to just maximize like we're talking like jesus like compassion or buddha like compassion uh it could be powerful force in fact i i have a little scenario in there i was like what if humanity could invent a compassion machine so a picture like an MRI machine or something we put electrodes on your scalp or whatever it is, I don't know what it looks like. But then you're able to connect with someone on the other side of the world. He's a goat herder in Yemen or it's someone plowing a field in Pakistan or whatever it is, someone completely different than you. And in this compassion machine, you're able to see and feel the world through their eyes and

through their heart. Like, imagine if we were actively every day, everyone spent half an hour in a compassion machine. And we had just a much deeper understanding the difficulties of what it's like to be a goat herder in Yemen or a farmer in Pakistan. And, but these are some of like the spiritual tools that lie in the world's faith traditions that can be transformative for us as a species on the planet.

So my five-year-old lesson, these two TV shows, kind of show us the way forward. Well, that's good. That's a good answer. I've got a couple final questions for you, but I want people to get the book, Soul Boom, why we need a spiritual revolution. Make sure you guys check it out. Get a couple copies for your friends as well.

Do you know about the grant study out of Harvard University? 75-year study? Yeah. Yes. 75-year study, 300 men at Harvard University, searching for what makes a good life. All these data points, thousands of data points over the decades.

The final, uh, doctor overseeing the study, Dr. George Valent, I think there's a new one now, but he was before. He says his final culmination was, the only thing that really matters in life are your relationships to other people.

So wherever I went in the world and I saw people succeeding at well-being at, um, at, uh, at inspiration. and happiness, contentment. They're connected to other people. It's community.

It's all about community. Now, I guess Gavramate talks about, I'm going to paraphrase it. I think it's the relationships with others, but also the relationship to ourselves and making sure we have a good relationship with self. It's hard to have great relationships with others if we don't have a beautiful relationship with self,

if we don't accept, have compassion for ourselves, or the parts of ourselves that we are there, most ashamed of or guilty or insecure about. And so I think it's a two-part thing. It's like having great relationships with others, but also developing a quality relationship with self. And it's, for me, it's inspiring to see you continue to develop a beautiful relationship with yourself so that you can be of service more in these other ways that you're doing

with this book and the show that you have going on. So I'm excited about that. Here's a question I wanted to ask you about comparison, because You mentioned this earlier in the interview about comparison, and I'm curious, how can someone learn to not compare themselves to others in an industry, you know, whether it's acting or sports or business or podcasting or books, whatever it is? Did you compare yourself a lot when you were kind of becoming famous and rising up in this space, or were you pretty focused on your own race and you weren't thinking about what everyone else

was doing. And if so, how did you overcome that comparison? Yeah, mentality. So Theodore Roosevelt said, comparison is the thief of joy. And if you are looking for joy, if you're looking for bliss, contentment and self-acceptance, that's a good place to start. Stop comparing yourself to others. Because you just don't know their circumstances. You don't know your circumstances. And you don't, There were a lot of people that I was incredibly envious of early on in my career. Really? Really? Doing theater in New York.

Oh, it's something I've struggled with my whole life. I mean, I've really let it go now, but, um, and you know, they had their moment in, let's say, New York theater in the 90s. Broadway or whatever it is. Yeah, exactly. And then, and then I've had my mom. We all have our moments if you have talent and, uh, but it's, it's a really important one of like, it's, I don't know if they're,

there's any kind of miracle to it. It's just stop it. Don't do it. Just don't compare yourself. That's it. It doesn't work. It doesn't help you. Envy is like, that's in every spiritual tradition, right?

Envy and the, what is it, the green, what in Shakespeare call envy, the green goblin or something like that? I mean, so yeah, that, that has been a big struggle for me. It's especially a struggle for actors because you're like, because you're going into a role and auditioning and there's 50 other guys, Yeah, there's 20 guys in a room and one of you gets the part. And like, oh, he did it. And then you go in again and the same guy gets the thing.

And you're like, God, him, you know. And so, you know, like Nick Offerman is a great example. Like he and I used to audition for all the same roles. And then I got on the office. I actually got him, introduced him to the producers of the office. And they had his picture on the wall. and they thought of him for Parks and Recreation, which was going to be a comedy spin-off.

And I'm not saying I got him the role, but I, you know, opened the door. Then he had that thing. And now he's been doing so much great work on, in television and having a career that was time when, because we're similar actors in a lot of ways. We're different in a lot of ways as well. But, you know, he's, and I just remember those early years

in the government being in the audition. So like, oh, you again. Wow. And we never had that with each other and we're able to really support each other. And then he's written a bunch of books. I've written a bunch of books. And that's cool. We support each other there as well.

But yeah, it's been a struggle. I guess if you want to stay miserable, compare yourself to everyone. Right? You want to be miserable. Compare yourself to everyone. It's a great place to start. You know, if you want to start. Like, I'm going to, you're talking about like School of Greatness, right?

Like these action items that you can make your life. life better. Number one, stop comparing yourself to others. I love that. Okay. Love it. Rain. You're just as good a podcast host as Rich Roll, okay? All right? For me, the thing that I've learned that it helped me, because I used to, I don't know if I used to compare, but I used to compete. Okay. Until 10 years ago. And I'm still like competitive in certain life, but more like towards games. It's not about like, I don't know, my business. It's like, okay, I want to be the best I can be, but I'm not trying to necessarily beat others.

Yeah. Because I feel like that's a scarcity business and a scarcity world where I've really shifted into collaboration as much as possible. Yeah. Like, okay, here's someone, me and Rich have been friends for, you know, 11 years. And so we just support each other. You know, how can I help you in succeeding and you can help me in succeeding? Yeah.

Let's just collaborate more. And there's abundance. There's room for both. I love those words scarcity and abundance because. if you've undergone some kind of child trauma and you feel less than, you feel scarcity and you feel like I'm never going to get what I need and there's not going to be enough for me, right? It's like someone who grows up in an orphanage, even when they're an adult and they can have a million dollars in the bank, they'll hide cookies under the mattress, afraid that they're going to be hungry, you know?

And to just note, there is enough for everyone. We can all have some success. and we can kind of live our lives in abundance. It probably wasn't until four years ago where I stopped sleeping on people's couches, like, when I would travel. Like, I used to, like, travel and be like, who do I know in this city that I can crash up? Right. As opposed to, like, just paying for the hotel room because I was like, this is money I

could save and, you know, not be broke again and just make sure I can stack my account or something. Maybe it was like 60 or 70 years ago, but it felt like it was more recent where it was like, okay, I can afford a hotel, I don't need to crash on some of this couch, all these different things. I wanted to acknowledge you, Rain, for this beautiful conversation, for being open, vulnerable, real, authentic, just like we talked about before we started, I appreciate your realness. And I always, you know, see your content from time to time. And, you know, for me, I appreciate when someone who is extremely successful in their craft

can open up about the different challenges and struggles and things that they've had to overcome. So I really appreciate that about you. I want people to get the book, Soul Boom, why we need a spiritual revolution, and also make sure to check out the new show that's coming out. Geography of Bliss. And if they go to your Instagram and your website, they can see more updates about all this stuff

and find out where to watch and how to get the book and all these different things. Links, handles, hashtags. Everything. Soulboom.com, rain Wilson, everywhere as well. We'll have it all linked up for you guys. Is there anything else we should send people to directly for you? That's all good.

That's it. Yeah. I asked you these two questions in the previous episode. You probably won't remember your answers. I have them up in front of me. So I'm going to cheat. Oh, my God. And see if you match these two responses.

It's been six years now, so they might be a different response to these two questions. The first one is called the three truths. So imagine hypothetical scenario. you get to live as long as you want, but eventually it's your last day on this earth. And you get to create, accomplish, be, do all the things you want to do from this moment until then.

But for whatever reason in this hypothetical scenario, you've got to take all of your work with you. So no one has access to this book or any podcast you've ever done or any interview. It's all goes somewhere else, hypothetical. But you get to leave behind three truths that you've learned throughout your life,

three lessons that you'd share with the world. What would be those three truths for you that you'd share? Well, one is the one we started with, which is, you know, what's something that I know for sure. I know for sure that I'm a spiritual being, having a human experience. I would say another truth is that storytelling is one of the most powerful forces. on planet Earth. Humans need to story tell. We thrive when we tell stories. And by this, I mean write poems, make movies,

tell our stories, share our personal details, connect with people, talk. You can do it professionally. You can be a professional storyteller, you know, in film and television and theater, or in fiction, and you could do it in your daily life. But that is one of the most powerful and important forces. And I would say, two, the other thing is we need more joy and hope in the world.

And one of the greatest services that we can ever give to people is to bring them joy and bring them hope. And that's where the work lies. Beautiful. Well, if people want to know what the previous three truths are, make sure you check out the other episode. We'll link it up. So you can see. You're not going to tell them. We can see.

where they, where they differ or where they're the same. This is the final question for you. What is your definition of greatness? I believe in God. So I believe that God has given me talents, certain talents and faculties. And greatness is me maximizing my God-given talents and faculties. So I learned a lot about this when I realized like, oh, I have the ability to make people laugh. I'm kind of goofy.

I'm kind of weird looking, a good sense of humor. Good timing. I can use language. Let me use all of those skills to try and make people laugh. And that worked out pretty well. It worked out pretty well for me. But we all have to find what that skill set is that gives us the most deepest, richest satisfaction and, and plight. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our greatness plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts.

Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how. how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.

And now it's time to go out there and do something great.