The School of Greatness - The Real Root of ADHD Isn't Trauma, It's This | Dr. Sasha Hamdani

Episode Date: August 26, 2026

That feeling when a small comment ruins your entire day? There's actually a name for it, and it's not a character flaw. Dr. Sasha Hamdani is a board certified psychiatrist and ADHD specialist who spent years thinking something was fundamentally wrong with her before she connected the dots between her emotions and her ability to function. She was diagnosed with ADHD in fourth grade but her parents never told her, calling her medication a “vitamin” until she found out by accident in medical school, mid breakdown, after a grade crash she couldn't explain. In this conversation she breaks down why ADHD is genetic rather than trauma driven, why women are diagnosed on average at 35 instead of childhood, and why so many get handed antidepressant after antidepressant for the wrong diagnosis. She also opens up about rejection sensitive dysphoria, the moment her father's sudden death taught her that unregulated emotion can shut down your whole life, and the years she spent secretly dating her now husband while terrified of rejecting her family's expectations. If you've ever felt like your emotions hijack your entire day, or you've been told to just calm down when your whole nervous system feels like it's on fire, this one will change how you see yourself. Pre-Order Too Sensitive: Rejection, Resilience, and the Science of Feeling Deeply Self-Care for People with ADHD: 100+ Ways to Recharge, De-Stress, and Prioritize You! Dr. Hamdani Instagram In this episode you will: Distinguish real ADHD from anxiety, trauma, and depression so you stop cycling through the wrong diagnosis and medications Uncover why women are diagnosed with ADHD nearly three decades later than men, and what that misdiagnosis actually costs Recognize Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria (RSD) as a neurological response, not a character flaw, so you can finally make sense of overwhelming emotional pain Replace well-meaning but harmful advice like “just calm down” with language that actually helps someone spiraling from rejection Transform deep sensitivity into a genuine strength instead of a source of shame Build emotional regulation habits early so grief, rejection, and stress stop hijacking your ability to function For more information go to https://lewishowes.com/1972 More SOG episodes we think you’ll love! Get More From Lewis! Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

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Again, thank you so much for being here and listening to The School of Greatness. Make sure to follow right now to stay up to date on the latest and greatest. There's so many things that fragment focus. Trauma can fragment focus. PTSD. anxiety can fragment focus. So many things that impact focus, impact behavior. But that's not truly ADHD. What would you say is typically the root cause of someone having ADHD.

Genetic. It's not trauma? Really? No. She's a board-certified psychiatrist, a best-selling author, an ADHD specialist who was diagnosed with ADHD herself. Please welcome Dr. Sasha Hamdana. You can't observe emotional regulation. You can't observe these kind of difficulties and subtleties that are happening internally.

We have this entire world of medication. Like if you have an ADHD diagnosis, you don't necessarily have to be on one of those medications. These kids almost seemed like they got worse, or it was just like it didn't seem like it helped them. Why are drugs typically the first thing that most doctors or primary individuals prescribe to someone when they diagnose them with ADHD? I think when... Your experience as a doctor around ADHD, first off, what is the difference between ADHD and ADD? And what are the main, I guess, flags to know if you... are undiagnosed with one of those.

Yeah. Okay. So I'm going to blow your mind right now. ADD and ADHD. Same thing. Same thing. Same thing. It's just ADD is an outdated term.

So previously, ADD was really classified as more like an inattentive presentation. And now ADHD is broken into three categories, inattentive, hyperactive, and combined. Inattentive being not, meaning not present? What does that mean? Like difficulty with initiating tasks, difficulty with. completing tasks, difficulty with forgetfulness and organization. Like, think about the daydreamer. That's me. That's me. Yeah. And then hyperactive, think about physically and verbally impulsive. Difficult staying in your seat. You have a hard time. Okay. So that's-

You should like shake my knees constantly in school, just like all day, just couldn't sit still. I kind of have that now and that's why I'm crossing my legs and smushing it down. Yeah. So. Focusing, yes. So, and then combined is obviously the combination of both. And so at 80D, what it was previously called, is really more aligned with the ADHD inattentic type. So what's the third aspect of ADHD? Combined. Oh, it's partially in. It's hard for you to focus and you're verbally and physically compulsive.

Is that what it be? Impulsive. Impulsive. Interesting. Okay. And so those would be kind of signs to see if you do this frequently, you might. have that. Is that correct? And I love how you said might because equally important to diagnosing in ADHD is diagnosing out everything else. That could be fragmenting focus, which is a lot of things. Yeah, or just distracted or whatever. Yeah. So how does someone actually get diagnosed with ADHD?

There are a couple of different ways you can do it. You can do like computer or neurological evaluation where you're doing a bunch of tests and you can do it with a therapist. You can do it with a primary care. doctor you can do with a pediatrician and they're getting information from you if they're evaluating a child for maybe teachers and from parents. If you see a psychiatrist, a lot of time it's based on clinical interview. So you're going and you are talking about your entire medical history. You're talking about your entire psychiatric history. You're looking for these longitudinal patterns showing like your focus over time and how that has been impacted or changed by different things like hormones and life events and other things like that. And then the additional, like, layer to all of this is that, frankly, this is coming from my perspective. I think ADHD, first of all, I hate the name. So attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. I don't think that encapsulates everything. I think it's confusing. Secondly, I think that it's really instead of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, I think it's truly a regulation issue. Emotional regulation? All. I think attention is in there. motivation is in there. I think energy is in there. And I definitely think emotion is in there.

And so I remember being in middle school, elementary school, and there being a few kids who were like they had ADD, right, back in the day. We all know that. In the 80s and 90s growing up, right? Yeah. And hearing that they were on drugs, right, whatever was, Rital, Adderall or something, Ritalin, out of all these things, right? And it didn't seem like it helped. Like, these kids almost seemed like they got worse or it was just like it didn't seem like it helped them. Why are drugs typically the first thing that most, I guess, doctors or primary care individuals prescribe to someone when they diagnose them with ADHD? Why does it seem like that? And again, maybe it's not a real quickest, but I think when, so when a physician is evaluating you or when a

mental health, well, yeah, a physician is evaluating you for ADHD and you've done and you've decided, like, we've looked at the medical history, we've looked at the psychiatric history, we've ruled things in, we've ruled things out, I think this is ADHD. I think the conversation really should be about the two ways you can treat ADHD, which is behavioral and like lifestyle modification and medication. And a lot of times it's the combination of both that has the best result. But there are people that do really well with just behavioral management. So as a general protocol, I think that initial conversation where you're talking about medication or you're talking about potential treatment forward, you should always talk about the behavioral and lifestyle,

like at its base level. And then you kind of figure out, now, what I will tell you is that ADHD medication and stimulant medication specifically can be life-changing for some people. Like some people just have incredible benefit and it actually allows them to do the behavioral and lifestyle modification. But we have this entire world of medication. Like if you have an ADHD diagnosis, you don't necessarily have to be on one of those medications. What would you say is typically the root cause of someone having ADHD? Genetics. Really? Yeah. It's not trauma? No. Really? No. So you're saying not having, having an adverse childhood where your parents are arguing and screaming and you're feeling like you have to be hypervigilant. Isn't a environmental cause of having some

type of ADHD symptoms. Now, okay, so to say something with absolute certainty is not going to be my jam, because, right, I think that maybe, maybe there's something I don't fully understand about that space. But I think at a fundamental baseline, I think, primarily it's genetic. And I'll tell you my beef with this trauma perspective of it, because I truly understand where that's coming from. My issue is that sometimes there isn't traumatic things happening and a parent is looking at their kid who might be experiencing ADHD symptoms and there is actually a hesitation to get them treated, get them evaluated because they don't want to, there was trauma here, this is your fault. I feel like there was some difficulty in terms of it is a parent at fault with that trauma hypothesis. Well, I don't think you need to blame parents necessarily on every case of a chair having it, right? So there's different circumstances. But I'm just thinking from what you said, you know, this book being about emotional regulation. You're learning the skills of emotional regulation for my, I'm speaking for myself and a lot of people I've spoken to. That when I grew up in a, an environment that did not feel emotionally safe. Yes. I didn't have the emotional tools on how to regulate myself. Yes. And therefore, I used. used strategies as a kid to feel safe and to protect myself.

Yeah. You know, even though I wasn't physically necessarily in harm's way, emotionally and psychologically, and I felt like I was not safe. You were indicted, yeah. And so therefore I use strategies to try to protect myself or stand out or do different things. And I feel like, for me, that trauma, that experience caused me to act out in a lot of ways. for my personal experience, if I'm self-assessing my childhood.

And I feel like that environment caused me to be hypervigilant. Yeah. You know, vocally and physically erratic or whatever, you know, the terminology is. But I don't think it was genetic for me because I feel like I've learned the skills of healing and learned tools of emotional regulation like you talk about in here. Yeah. That caused me to be more peace and feel more psychologically and emotionally safe. Right.

And so that's where I was asking about the trauma side of things. Yeah. Versus genetics. Well, let me, let me back up. First of all, love that you have been able, given a chaotic kind of upbringing and environment initially, that you've been able to find those skills and actually not only fine-tune them and actually make them applicable for yourself, but actually see benefit from them.

So that's a huge. But what I would say is that there's so many things that fragment focus. There's so many things that trauma can. fragment focus. PTSD, a huge cause of that. Anxiety can fragment focus. Thyroid conditions can fragment focus. There's so many different things. Hormones. So there's so many things that impact focus, impact behavior, but that's not truly ADHD. So you could have focus fragmentation that's coming from all those things. But ADHD is a distinct longitudinal pattern that's usually genetic. Well, interesting. So I might have had symptoms or a similarity.

of ADHD, but not ADHD. Yes. How does a practitioner distinguish the difference? Do they look at your blood work and say like, okay, your DNA says this versus the behavioral traits that you're using or are experiencing in life? Yeah. Because if the symptoms look the same, how do you know the diagnosis? Okay.

Yes. So if, you know, you're seeing these symptoms of fragmented attention kind of throughout and the doctor has does a full assessment. They've looked at medical stuff. They've looked at psychiatric stuff. They've looked at the just psychological kind of environment that they're in and the state of affairs in terms of their life and what's happening. And they get to a spot where they're trying to figure out like, is this ADHD or is this not? Then you start looking back at patterns. Is this a consistent pattern from birth? This was going on with opposite. and deons and this have been a consistent pattern.

Is this really localized around traumatic things? And this is like a trauma response. Is this something that happens when metabolically something is different? So you're looking at context and you're looking at kind of when these things peak and valley. You're looking at from early, early ages, what has this pattern been throughout? And I think it's really difficult because I also, we touched on this briefly, but like, I think with ADHD, diagnostically, we're at a very problematic spot because that initial data was done on hyperactive young males.

So right now, we have this diagnostic criteria that's not encapsulating so many other presentations. But also aren't many young males hyperactive? I mean, it's like, just hormones make young men more hyperactive than not? I have a six-year-old young male. He is. Jumping off the walls and running around. Of energy and Zager. I think it can sometimes be difficult to tell, for sure.

But the criteria was built on observable data. There's a lot of this, especially when you're making the argument to include emotional regulation, which by the way, Europe did in 2019. They amended their criteria to include emotional regulation. And the U.S. still hasn't. Wow. But when you're looking at all this, you can. can't observe emotional regulation. You can't observe these kind of lived experiences and these difficulties and subtleties that are happening internally. And so now we have this in this presentation

where anyone who's having this emotional turbulence that happens with ADHD and emotional dysregulation, because of that failure in criteria, doctors are like, okay, well, it's anxiety, It's depression. And they're treated with antidepressant after antidepressant after antidepressants. And antidepressants, by the way, I'm not against antidepressants. I think they're great. I think they're life-changing tools if that's your diagnosis. So if you don't have anxiety and depression, you're started on an antidepressant.

This cycle just perpetuates. And what happens is that I've had patients come into my office. They sit in the chair. They've maybe they're on their 10th antidepressant. And they're like, I went to my doctor, and I asked him, after seeing stuff online or talking to my family, I think I have ADHD. And the doctor will say, well, we can't even look at that until we get your anxiety and depression. Shut up.

Yeah. Wow. So you're just in this perpetuating cycle of misdiagnosis. That's where I feel, again, that's where I feel the medical world can be harmful if they misdiagnose and put you on 10 different antidepressants and say, well, we can't be. treat you for something else until we figure this anxiety and depression thing out. I'm not saying all medical is bad, but I'm saying it can be harmful when that happens. And someone comes in your office and is like, I've been on 10 antidepressants and I don't know how to like get better. Yeah.

It's almost like it's harming that individual more than helping them. Yeah. Well, if it's a wrong diagnosis, it is objectively harming them because you're giving a medication that is changing your brain functioning. Oh, man. It's wild. That just makes me angry. Yeah. If someone's been misdiagnosed, been giving a chemical to transform their brain in a negative way that they weren't supposed to have.

And then they have to live with that potential for the rest of their life. I mean, look at, if you look at the average age of diagnosis, for males, 6 to 8. For females, 35. Of ADHD or anxiety and depression? Of ADHD. That's when they get their diet. And usually it's because they're bringing in their kid and they're like, wait a second. this sounds just like me.

And so... So moms will come in and get diagnosed at 35 when they bring her kid. If they seemingly can't control, they don't know what's wrong with them or what's going on, right? Yeah. And so they'll come in and they're like, actually, that sounds a lot like me. And that might be the first time that they're actually getting treatment for what they shouldn't be getting treatment for. But think about all 35 years when they were having these pockets of time around puberty, around childbirth, around all of these different things where you're saw big spikes in emotional regulation because it's a hard world and life is hard. And like they're

big pockets. And instead of like looking at what what's a root cause of this, what is at the base of this, it's it's hormonal. It's mommy brain. It's, you know, they're just getting past, it's anxiety, it's depression. And so they're either misdiagnosed or they're just frankly ignored and passing along. Postpartum, whatever might be, right? Different things. Now, how does someone know they have true anxiety or depression versus stressful thoughts that come and go or anxious thoughts that come and go. Yeah. Patterns. Patterns.

You look at intensity of kind of thoughts. You look at how disruptive it is in terms of your day-to-day functioning. So like for depression, you need criteria that is over a certain span of time. and you look at sleep. You look at interest level. You look at, is this person experiencing guilt or hopelessness? You look at energy. You look at concentration.

You look at appetite. You're looking at all of these different things. It's not just, you know, does this person have suicidal thoughts or not? It is, you're encapsulating a lot of different things over a certain span of time versus they went through a breakup and all they're sad. This is a big difference. So you're catching it over a pretty prolonged period of time. with anxiety, same kind of thing. You're looking over a period of time and you're looking like,

is this person dealing with like muscular skeletal stuff? Are they restless? Do their muscle tension is sleep getting impacted? Do they panic attacks? Like you're looking at all of those different pieces. But the thing that distinguishes that from a situational up and down is truly patterns. Over time. Over time.

Because if you're gone through a breakup and you're still sad, three, six, or maybe nine months later, it may not be anxiety or depression. You just maybe haven't dealt with the breakup fully yet or the loss yet. But a lot in your book talks about rejection. And it sounds like most people in the world are afraid of being rejected or the feeling of rejection. Yeah. Whether it be a micro-rejection, meaning a comment online where someone didn't approve of their post. Yeah. Or a rejection of approaching someone then saying no, or rejection at work, a rejection in their marriage, whatever it might be. Yeah.

What is the consequence of rejection for most people in the world right now? When they experience rejection, they feel what? So let's back up a little bit because I don't think anybody likes rejection, right? You're never going to meet someone who's like, that was great for me after getting rejection or criticism. Or maybe you do. I don't know. But most people are going to be like, that was bad. but then they are able to kind of move on and take whatever positives they need to from that moment

or possibly not even do that, just forget about it and move on. There is a concept called rejection-sensitive dysphoria, and that is a profound emotional response to real or perceived rejection, criticism, or disappointing someone. It is a neurological phenomenon that's happening. And so what I tell people is that if you are looking, you know, at where you fall on this emotional spectrum. Rejection sensitive dysphoria. Yeah. And it's real or perceived rejection.

Yeah, you might think you're getting received. I think you're getting rejection. You're not. It's just a fear around it, too, right? Okay, sorry. So what is it? There's a scale of this? There's a spectrum.

There's a spectrum. So if you're looking at it, and it's pretty intuitive because when you ask, to yourself like, how sensitive am I? What is normal? You look at this spectrum and, you know, that's what we go over in this book because I don't think that was ever delineated. I don't know where you would consider normal, but where I consider normal would be when you're having a situational stressor and your mood goes up or down appropriately. Now, you look at one end of the spectrum and it's apathy where you're having an emotional trigger and you don't really elevate up or down. It's just, meh, numb, you're there. Polar other opposite end of the spectrum, which is kind of where I

live, is where you feel things deeply and quickly and for a long time. And it's truly because of a difference in neurological wiring. And I would put RSD on that side of the spectrum. Rejection Sensitive dysphoria. So if you feel things deeply and intensely for long periods of time, whether it is a seemingly horrible event that occurred to you or a friend or someone you know and you feel deeply around that experience or maybe it wasn't that horrible perceived of an event, but you still feel deeply for something that's smaller. Yeah. What does that say about you?

I think that says that you're highly emotionally sensitive. Yes. And I don't necessarily think that's, I mean, I want to make sure that that's not being put with a good or bad label, right? It is what it is. It's just you're wired. Like there are some people that process emotion more intensely. And so if that's how you feel really deeply, really quickly, really intensely and it lingers for a long time, you're one of those people that probably does interpret emotion differently, process emotion differently.

And there's a different set of skills that you use for that. Yes. I feel like I grew up like that. Yeah. Yeah. Feeling deeply around lots of things. Did you get called sensitive a lot? Uh, no, maybe emotional, but, you know.

But I would like, I was, yeah, I just felt very deeply. And I would go into like an emotional cave at times, you know. Yeah. And either in, by myself or around other people and, yeah. It's interesting. And I had to learn tools as an adult on how to, like I still feel very deeply, but I've had to, I don't know if it's a psychological tool or an emotional tool or what it is, spiritual tool on how to feel it, not bypass the feeling, but also not let the feeling take over

my life. Oh my God. So that I can actually keep moving forward and focusing on, focusing out rather than focusing inward constantly. So that's kind of the entire gist of this is I wanted to make sure that people understand it's not about making you less sensitive. It's giving you more control. Yeah. So for people who do feel things really deeply, I feel like being able to utilize those skills. And it's all stuff you've heard about you. It's all stuff you know. But knowing when to apply it, how to apply it, that's really going to help you.

And I think with this book, the way it's broken up is the first part is the neuroscience of truly, if you're neurologically wired to process emotion differently. Then it goes into where you fall on that spectrum. Then it goes into the tools. And then the last part of the book is just all real world examples where then it breaks down like, this is what's happening in the brain. This is a skill you use. Let's practice it. Because I think going through, if you were able to do that while you're not in this disregulated state, you're going to be able to kind of learn and build. And then when you need it,

it's there. You kind of learned and experienced and you've practiced and you've practiced it and lower stake moments. So I think that's the key of kind of moving more into that emotionally resilient spot. Yes. If someone feels like their brain is working against them. Yeah. And they feel like they just can't get a hold of their thoughts and their brain is kind of working against them. What do you think is actually going on inside of them if they feel like they cannot get a control on their brain? You have to give me more information. Do you mean like they feel like their emotions are out of control? Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of times, like if you go back and you actually think about the neuroanatomy of what's at play, there are two big, big things that

we talk about. Number one is the amygdala. And that is that a emotional threat detector in the body and the brain. And the second part is your frontal lobe, that prefrontal cortex directly under your forehead. Smartest part of the brain. Judgment, decision making, processing, that's all that frontal lobe functioning. When you're dealing with someone who's highly emotionally sensitive, that amygdala, hyper responsive. So now it's like taking emotional data, processing it, and it's dumping alarm chemicals. like I am in danger, something's happening, this is going on, this is real. And so you, and you kind of describe this with this hypervigilance.

You know, you're on lookout for this is happening, this is dangerous. So this is a mental is spinning, dumping alarm chemicals. Then the frontal lobe underresponsive. So when you need that guy most, where is he? He's not processing or overriding this. And the connection between the two is weak. So basically, your emotions are going to outweigh that logical part of your reign almost every time. unless you have those skills.

Gosh. This is where, you know, I've probably made too many mistakes in my past, letting my emotions get the best of me in the heat of the moment, right? Like, and you react, you say something. You're like, ugh, shouldn't have said that. Oh, my God. I have, I have many examples. Many of those moments, right? Many examples.

You spent years thinking something was wrong with you before you had a diagnosis, correct? Yeah. So what changed once you understood what was really happening? I don't even think it was about the diagnosis because my diagnostic story was a little bit weird and then I was diagnosed in fourth grade did well, didn't bother me, didn't really know that I was on ADHD medication,

which was weird. No way. Yeah. Your parents just gave it to you without you knowing? Yeah, just thought it was a vitamin. How do you feel about that? Well, not even, okay, so what... You feel a trick for lied to?

So they were like, this is going to help you focus. Okay. Okay. So I, but I never had to, that sit down conversation of like, this is ADHD, this is what you're taking. This is a drug. This is chemically changing your brain every time you take it. Now, keep in mind, this was, I'm not going to, like, it was a long time ago.

This was very, girls getting diagnosed with ADHD. It was basically unheard of. I was in a school where, you know, number one, I was like the only ethnicity. So I already felt really othered. And I was like from the... You wanted to be accepted. You wanted to be, yeah. And from the get-go, I knew I was very emotionally sensitive and so did my parents.

So I think they fumbled the bag on that one. Like, they could have handled that better. But now being... Right, but being a parent, I understand that this is where it came from. And I think that they more than made up for that. Because then when I go through school, I do pretty well, get into medical school. And in medical school, and in medical, school, I go through, like, it was like the first two weeks. And I was like, did I have a stroke? What is

wrong with me? Like, why are things? Stroke? Yeah, I just felt like. In medical school? No, I didn't actually. But I was like, things have gone from the top of my class to the bottom of my class. What happened? My parents were like, are you taking your vitamin? And I was like, I don't know where that is. And they're like, okay, well, it's actually ADHD Medicaid. Oh my gosh. And so then, yeah, I think. felt extremely betrayed. I felt very angry. And, you know, this is coming from parents who well-educated, like the most attentive, loving parents. And I just, I was so angry, so angry. I can imagine it. And then I was like, fine, I will show you. Like, I knew kids who had ADHD when I was growing up, and they weren't me. They're like kids who are, you know, doing crazy

stuff and getting in trouble. And that is not me. So I tried and I tried and I was watching all my peers whizzed past me and I got into a spot where I studied so hard for an exam so hard. I knew this neuroanatomy of the brain inside out. Like even right now if you were to show me, I'd be like, I know it all. I go in for this test. I do this test, hand it in before anyone else out the door and like, that was perfect. I'm going to shove it in everyone's face.

This is going to be great. We go and this is, I don't know if you had this. Did they ever like post grades or something? Yeah, not online. This is just like on a sheet. So we're all like huddled around the next day. Looking and I was like, oh, my God, somebody got a 32%. And I was like, oh, God, it's me.

No way. So I'm looking at my ID number and I was like, like, I got a hundred. There's no way. This must be an error. I go. I forgot to flip over the sheet. Oh, you left the whole thing blank. So you would have got 100% had you flipped it over probably.

I was crying. I went to the instructor and I was like, just give it, give it to me orally. I'll do it right now. I'll show you I know it. And he's like, you need to learn from this. And I was like, I will learn nothing from this. And so then I was like, that's what kind of was like, this is a tipping point. And then my dad was like, just come home.

Let's learn about your brain. And if it's, if it's ADHD, we'll figure out what to do. If it's not, we'll figure out something else to do. So we went home, like, did this whole library excursion, we were sitting on the floor, reading articles, and like learn everything. And by the end of it, I was like, this is for sure me. And this is what we kind of made a plan and started working on both,

like, the behavioral side and the medication side and trying to figure out a good path forward from there. I forgot what the actual question was. I mean, you learning about your parents, you know, kind of lying to you, I guess, about the vitamin being medication and you being upset. And then you realizing, okay, this is, I'm going to prove them wrong and realizing that the test, you know. That could have been one off, though, because you were like, you proved that you knew the information. You studied hard and you had the answer.

I got a surpic score in the first half. Yeah. So it's, I mean, in some ways, you did prove them wrong. But, yeah, you forgot to flip the page. So, yeah, I think it's, it was just an interesting kind of trajectory. I think they really handled it beautifully. Like if in, in that moment, like going back and being able to, you know, my dad in particular, he was an engineer and he just, you know, was like my second brain. He was just trying to help me.

And he was like, well, let's look at, let's look at the data. Let's look at how you answered these questions. Where was the problem? And really, like, without his help, I wouldn't have gotten through medical school because I was learning so much about my brain and learning about how I learned and how I handled things. And I think part of that diagnostic thing is ADHD aside, I remember where the question was going, ADHD aside, the emotional regulation, I figured out much, much later. And it wasn't until my dad died. That's when you figure out emotional regulation. That's when I figured out for the first time.

So my dad died in 2024. Relatively quick. Like he had been sick for a while with an underlying lung condition, but it had been stable. And then he, we found out he had a spot, like lung cancer. Stage one, they were like, don't worry about it. Like, it's not that big of a deal. He does radiation, does chemo. And then he called me and he was like, something's wrong.

So I fly from Kin City to him. I like he looked terrible I was took him in the hospital and I was like do something do a pet skin we need and they're like it's too early I'm like just do one I don't care like let's just figure out what's happening here it was everywhere ever any died 13 days later no way yeah oh my gosh and so at that point I think just like the whiplash of all of that and just how heavily emotional it was that was the first time Lewis that I was like my emotional status directly impacts my functional status. If I am emotional and emotionally overwhelmed, I can't do these things. So I was like, and I had seen that before with like breakups and

other things like that where things happened. But I didn't tie those two things together. Because like if it's overwhelmed, because I have tons on my plate, I will delegate, I will hack my way around, I will figure out a skill, but I can't delegate the emotional side. And so that's when I figured out that, and that's when I started writing that. Wow. Yeah, for me, it was the emotional side of thing would take over my life when I would feel too deeply or the range of emotions, guilt, loss, shame, anger, whatever the emotion was, sadness. But deep. Deep, it would suffocate me. It would engulf my life. And I couldn't turn it off. Yeah. if I was at the office or if I was, you know, I would literally just kind of just stay home by

myself. No, you flat. Because I didn't know how to emotionally navigate those things, those feelings for a long time. And it would, yeah, would suffocate me. My whole life would be suffocated by emotions. Yeah. And that's when I became kind of not obsessed, but really all in on like, okay, why? Why is this happening?

Yeah. And that's where I asked in the beginning, like learning how to heal traumatic memories. memories that cause the emotional avalanche to take over my life. Yeah. Once I learned emotional regulation and healing traumatic memories that were triggering the emotions, that were causing the hypervigilance because of an emotion tied to a memory that I had yet to heal, an open wound from the past that when you poked it, boom, my whole member system would just be in pain.

Yes. And the bigger the trigger or the bigger the perceived abuse or perceived abandonment or whatever the wound was, the perception of whether it was real or not perceived. I didn't know how to navigate it. Oh, yeah. And so that's why I was asking the beginning, like, when we learn, I think, the ability to navigate our emotions and we can use a lot of the skills you talk about in your book. we can come back to the present. We can hopefully learn to integrate the healing journey. We can hopefully have a moment to refocus our energy on what's at hand, whether being

present with someone, whether it being our job, whether being whatever things we need to do. Instead of being engulfed in the feelings. Yes. Consuming us. Yeah. And constantly ruminating on the event that happened. that caused this feeling. And I think when we can learn those emotion regulation skills,

like you talk about here, it doesn't mean bad things aren't going to happen that we need to face, like, the loss of your father. It's going to be overwhelming. Yeah. But hopefully it doesn't take years of your life away from you living in the present now. And that's what it's felt like in the past.

Like when you get that hit with something so emotionally, it does take away years of your life. this is what you go to sleep thinking about. This is what you wake up thinking about. It consumes you. And so, and when you're right in the throw of it, you're just like, this will never end. I'm going to feel this way forever. Yeah.

It just takes up so much mental space, emotional space, having to deal with that. And for people who do feel deeply, they feel it. Really deep. Yeah, yeah. More. They feel it more. I mean, it seems like women often get told that they have anxiety or depression for years. before someone checks that it's potentially ADHD or something else.

Why do you think that happens to women specifically? Oh, my God. I think, like, if you're talking about ADHD specifically, and these are women who have been misdiagnosed with anxiety and depression, you go back, and one big thing is that the diagnostic criteria, it's not built to capture women. So it's not built to capture. It's built on hyper young boys.

It's not capturing adult females. Like, you're not really getting that presentation. The second thing that I think is a big factor in this is just a hormonal component. So hormonally, when your estrogen drops, your dopamine drops as well. And dopamine is that great regulator that kind of helps everything with mood and alertness. And so when you have that drop in dopamine, your ADHD symptoms get worse. Problem is that so does mood. So do all these other things.

And so you're being told, we're just hormonal. This is postpartum. It's not that big of a deal. You'll get through it. or you get treated for anxiety, you get treated for depression, when really it's a secondary ADHD that's complicated things as well. Third thing is that I feel like women from just like a societal perspective, it's unacceptable for them to be rambunctious or, you know, interrupting things or, you know, get up and move around. A lot of times they learn from an early age, they have to mask their symptoms. And so as time goes by, they get better and better at doing that.

It's not that the symptoms go away. It's not that the symptoms aren't impacting them. They're just really good at compensating and getting past it and blending into society better, all while taking that on as a huge toll on themselves. And so now you get, you know, 10, 15, 20 years down the line. And these women are like, okay, enough's enough. Let's go and get diagnosed. And then the doctor's like, you would have known if you had it before. that you're doing too well.

And so it's just, it's, it's a system that wasn't built for women. Interesting. My friend, I hope you're enjoying this episode. And the School of Greatness drops new conversations every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday around money, mindset, healing, manifestation, and relationships. And if you're not yet following the show, then you're missing all of them. Please tap the follow button right now. And you'll get notified the moment every new episode drops because the next one, might be exactly what you need.

Now, let's get back to the conversation. Do you think just modern society life is causing a lot of anxiety, depression, and ADHD versus, I don't know, living on a farm and working hard with your family unit back in the day or something like that? Like, is it just modern society is causing so much overwhelm of the brain and the emotions to be able to navigate all that's happening? I think right now it's hard. We're living in a really hard world. It's hard. It's a hard every which way you look at it, which is why I think discussions about emotional regulation are especially important right now. But I think, like, does this increasingly, like, digital overwhelming world, does that cause ADHD? No. Does it worsen ADHD? For sure. So I think there is an exacerbation of all of these things just because, we're living in this extremely chaotic timeline with so many things happening. So many, like, I have an eight-year-old girl, and she sees me on my phone. And she was talking about, like, I want a phone too.

And I was like, no, never. And she's like, well, why? That's not fair. Why do you have a phone? And it's like, there's literally nothing good that lives in my phone. I want to throw it into the sun. Like I, like, the phone I. I feel like that's where I've fed it.

Like a lot of times, social media is so dark and difficult. And like it just, it wears on you just being a human right now. Yeah. From a psychise. So just modern society is hard in general. Like, everything's happening.

Yeah, I kind of feel blessed that I didn't get a phone until I was like 17 or 18. So I kind of missed that window of being on screens, really. I guess I played like maybe a little bit of like video games. Like maybe, but I was more... Super into them? I mean, I was more into, like, we didn't have enough money. They have a Nintendo until years later, but I would, like, go to the arcade. Oh, yeah.

And, like, it was, like, a set amount of time, and I didn't have enough money to be there for hours. So, like, how many quarters do you have? But I was more in the sports world, but it was just, like, after school, I'm playing in the playground. I'm doing sports activities. So I was always out playing. Yeah. And then I come home at night, have dinner, and it was like, maybe later I had, like, a little bit of time, but I wasn't really interested in playing video games when I was older because I wanted

to get better at sports. Right. So I kind of missed that window of being a kid in this generation where you got phones early or your parents had a phone and you're playing the games with them or iPads. I kind of miss that. Yeah. But as a parent of two, you know, twin girls right now, what advice would you have for me around iPads, iPhones, screen time, uh, car,

cartoons, movies for my kids or any parents for their kids, if they want to have healthy young kids that have fewer chances of getting anxiety, depression, and ADHD. So I don't think screens are going to cause ADHD. I think they could worsen on underlying ADHD for sure. And screens do fragment focus. So in that early developmental period from zero to too. That's really when you're still so neuroplastic. You're learning things, even though you're not up and about doing all those things. You're learning kind of the flow of the world. You're learning how to encapsulate attention. You're building all of that gray and white matter and trying to figure out what your brain is doing, how it's going to be wired, right? So I am never going to be

the person who's like, absolutely. My mom is that person. My mom's a pediatrician and she is like, don't do screens. And now it's like, I literally grew up on TV. You know. Sitting in front of the TV. Sitting in front like this far away. Yeah. And so I was, you know, I, I know that for a lot of parents, screen time is truly a tool so that the parent is, his or herself, can take a break and do, yeah.

And have an hour to themselves. Yeah. Can make dinner, can do the laundry, can just go to the bathroom. Yes. Totally. So I don't think. I think, like, if you have an excessive amount of, like, guilt and shame about stuff like that, I don't, like, it's all about moderation to me. I think if there is a way that you are able to minimize screen time, use more, like, integrated play and movement and other interactions that are screen free, your kid is more likely to kind of grow up and mean that less.

So, but if you still have screens, and I will tell you, my kids had screens. not of their own, but like they were exposed to it at different points in their lives. And there are still times where I'm like, okay, I need to finish this last patient. And if I, if you guys are around and I'm trying to play with you, there's no way I can do that, here's a show. It's 26 minutes long. Yeah, yeah. You know, so I think it's all about moderation. If someone is, you know, they don't have ADHD, they don't have anxiety and depression, but they are just feeling overwhelmed a lot.

And they feel like they don't know how to reclaim, reclaim their thoughts, their emotions, but they're not diagnosed with one of these things. Yeah. What's an emotional tool that you talk about that people could use? If they're just feeling like life is so hard right now, I'm overwhelmed, I'm overworked, I'm feeling stressed, I'm feeling. can't reclaim my focus. Like, what's an emotional tool they can use right now to help them? So I, again, a lot of the tools in this book are stuff that you've heard about. Or probably I've been told. Like, for example, any time I was in this like spirals of overwhelm or things like that, take a deep breath. And I'm like, get out of here with that. I don't want to hear that from you.

But if I arrived to that conclusion myself, I somehow think it's like the greatest breakthrough of all time. But I think one of the best things is the way we talk about emotional sensitivity and dysregulation and overwhelm is also understanding that it can present very differently. Like there are times where I feel very overwhelmed and my initial impulse is to be a recluse and to withdraw and be quiet and go to do that. Then there are times where I'm emotionally overwhelmed and I am pacing and I'm like talking out loud and I'm like trying my best. to kind of work through it. If I am in a spot where I'm like by myself and withdraw, and I probably do have the capacity where I could be like, okay, let me take a deep breath. Let me do this because I'm already kind of on the quiet side and I'm by myself and I'm, I may be more likely to do that. If I'm pacing around, telling me to slow down and take a

deep breath feels so much harder. So that time when my nervous system is literally on fire, I lean into it. Like I need to use movement. I need to somehow. push that oxygenated glucose into my frontal lobe so I can think my way out of this. So this is like, I'll give me an example, being on this press tour and for this book, it's just, first of all, writing a book about rejection than pick on a press door. There out of the 10 would not recommend. But I had, you know, these podcasts line up and one of the podcasts pulled out two days before I was supposed to film.

And I... How did it make you feel? God, like trash. So I was just like, I am just not a big enough deal and that's why they canceled. I, they feel like I'm bad for their brand. They don't want to talk about emotional sensitivity. The book is stupid. I'm stupid. Like it just, it went from zero to 60 really quickly. And I was sitting on the couch with my husband and I just started getting up. I started pacing around and he's like, okay. Something's happening. And then I remembered. like, okay, I know what's happening.

My amygdala is spinning out of control. I'm dumping alarm chemicals. I need that frontal lobe to kick on, but I, it's hard because I can't think my way out of this. I can't even think about an alternative to what's happening because I'm so convinced this is happening. And so I had seen like a couple of days prior to that, like, you know, someone was talking about like the benefit of doing squats, like for like longevity and like muscle health and brain health. And I was like, great. So I'm like going from pacing to all of a sudden doing squats in front. And my husband is just like, what do you do?

And so I'm doing squats. And like, it's like less than two minutes. And I'm like, okay, I stop. I sit down again. I reread the email. And this time I'm like, this is the first time that I reread the email. And I saw the words due to a family emergency. Did not even read that the first time.

And I was like, okay. that I can that I can stomach and then two hours later I get a thing where they're like they wanted to float you this different date and I was like okay well so I mean I think it's all about like understanding how you present working with your body instead of fighting against it and just using knowing when to apply the tool sure what's happening in the brain in simple terms when someone feels a small moment of rejection as overwhelming pain. or anxiety. So I think basically from that fundamental perspective is that emotional threat center of the brain, the amygdala, is very hyper-responsive. It freaks out. It starts sending alarm chemicals to the rest of the body telling you, like, you're in danger, and it's very much this fight-or-flight response.

You're in danger. Something is wrong. You need to either get ready to throw hands or you need to get out of here, or you need to freeze because those are your options that you have. And all while this is going on, your frontal lobe is supposed to help you do checks and balances and be like, this actually isn't totally accurate. You can calm it down a little bit. But that is underresponsive.

So you're not getting that checks and balances. So really, you're at the mercy of this emotional cascade slowing down. So unless you have those skills to help that happening, you just got to write it out, which seems very unfair. Yeah, that's tough. Yeah. So you need the skills. You need the tools. Yeah.

I need the tools. What's the most damaging piece of advice people with RSD get from well-meaning friends or family? Oh my God. Can I tell you when I hate the most? Hopefully I haven't done this. No. And if you have straight to jail. Yeah, right?

Just calm down. It's like, oh my God, thank you so much. I never thought of that. Like, that doesn't help me at all. And this is with someone has rejection-sensitive dysphoria. Yeah. So if I'm already feeling like my entire brain and body are responding to this rejection or threat or criticism, and I recognize in real time, this is a huge response and it's overwhelming. Now you're telling me to calm down.

Or relax or whatever, yeah. So what can someone say when they see a friend, a loved one, and their mind looks like they're freaking out over nothing, you know? to the person, it's a big thing that's happening, whether it's perceived or real. Yeah. But in the friend's mind, like, this isn't that big a deal or it's all going to be okay, chill out, relax.

What can that friend say or do instead? So this is something my husband does so beautifully. And I think it was just intuitive for him, but maybe it's since-drained him also. Maybe he's drained him. But in those, like, for example, when I was pacing around and then just randomly doing squats in front of him. He was sitting on one end of the couch.

I go and sit on the other end of the couch. He moves closer to me and he was just like, what happened? And I, you know, I think number one, he entered it from curiosity. It wasn't what's wrong. It wasn't that was crazy. It was what, you know, what's happening right now. I go through this kind of thing that happened. from like, well, I read this.

And then I started like, it just ever, I, I, the way I explained it was like, everything felt so hot. I felt like I was just getting so hot. That's how I describe it to my husband. And then I just started getting at like, and he's like, you were pacing around. And I, like, I didn't even realize I was pacing around. I knew I got up. Definitely knew I was doing squats.

And then I was like, yeah, I tried to like kind of calm things down because I was feeling really restless. And then I went back and read the email and realized it was a family. emergency. And so then that neutral kind of, I'm just sitting and supporting you, letting you regulate your nervous system real time. Because I think for a lot of people who are dealing with this fear of rejection or criticism, especially if it's in the context of that person that you're receiving it from, if they storm off or if they tell you to calm down, you feel even more unheard. You feel even more rejected. Sometimes him just sitting there.

being with me knowing like I can, it immediately regulates my nervous system. I think it's a powerful thing when someone can do that. And I think it's, in general, I would say it's hard for most men that I've known to learn that skill, to be able to sit peacefully when something is chaotically happening, which seems like nothing happened and you're overreacting, right? This is the seeming situation for a lot of people. and if men haven't learned the skill of emotional regulation themselves, which most men haven't learned that yet.

Fair. They can't handle someone else what seems like a freak out around them. Yeah. If they don't know how to navigate it. So it's hard for them. So this is the challenge. Like when I'm not saying, you know, some men aren't able to do this, but then there's challenges in relationship breakdowns.

When the woman doesn't feel seen or heard and the man feels like, well, you're just acting crazy or whatever the terminology is. And that's the challenge. That's why I think when both individuals or all individuals can learn emotional regulation, hopefully it's less heated by one person and the other person has the skills to be able to meet them and see them and hear them and hold that space. But that just takes very present people who are actively trying to improve themselves. I'm like to teach it in the schools.

Like, give me something, man. Like, this is, these are things that I think really would benefit. Like, I think everybody could benefit from emotional literacy. Yes. Like, you know. But I think, like, if you start integrating, like, the way you experience emotions is neurological. The way you talk about emotions, the way, like, you just, I feel like this world specifically, people are so careless with that component of it.

They are. They are. Yeah. What is something you wish you knew when you were, growing up that you now know now? The emotional regulation part. Like if I had understood that the emotional side of things would so directly impact my ability to be productive and move forward in a pathway, I would have spent that time instead of shoving

down my emotions or compartmentalizing them or because I felt like that was my default. Like anytime I felt something big, I'd be like, not right now. go away and it would show up later in the weirdest kind of ways. So I just never figured it out. And it was truly until I was like, oh, these two things are connected that I felt like this deserves me going into and learning how to manage things. And my life has exponentially improved and said, and it's made me a better parent. It's made me a better partner.

It's made me a better doctor. It's made me a better person because of that emotional regulation. Yeah. Mm-hmm. How can someone who feels like they're overly sensitive turn that into a strength? Number one, by recognizing that it's neurological. Like, this isn't a quirk. This isn't your personality.

It's not something that if you're born with it, you're going to luck. Like, you just, you are, this is something, the brain is just so incredible that we have this capacity and this agency to rewire our brains. I think that's so, it makes, it makes psychiatry feel so hopeful. And so I think that if you feel, yes, I get overwhelmed all the time, this is really hard for me. And it's difficult for me to navigate through life because I feel like I'm constantly responding to these triggers. I think it is possible to kind of move on from these things to learn your patterns, to learn what your triggers are, to learn how to manage them in real time. And you said this previously, and I loved how you phrased it, is you still want to feel things.

just have to navigate it. And I think that's what the takeaway is. It's giving yourself and trusting yourself enough to be able to navigate without feeling like I'm always going to be sucked under. As a parent of two kids, what's your biggest fear over the next 10 to 15 years for them based around what's happening in society and like the overwhelmed that a lot of youth are feeling and things like that. I have so many fears. I don't know if I can go. The one that I most recently was thinking about, and it kept me up like three days ago, is thinking about, like, how increasingly digital our world has gotten and how isolated we all are. Like, we're all kind of operating, like, you know, I, what triggered this is I walked into a coffee shop and I was

waiting for my order. And I looked around literally every single person sitting on their phone. sometimes there were two people sitting to eat with each other. They're both on their phones. And I'm guilty of that at times. I'm checking my email. I'm trying to multitask. But that's the worlds that we kind of are in right now, where everybody is so in their own universe that it makes me think about,

like, what's 10 years down the line going to be? Yeah. As a parent, though, and as a doctor, how do you ensure that your kids have this emotional regulation at an early age? I think some of it, some of it is honestly in our house. I think because I've been figuring this out in real time, I've also made it a point to talk it out loud. So when I'm feeling big things, and especially with my dad where I was like,

I really can't explain my way around it. They're seeing it. Like I don't, we just have to talk about it. Talking about those kind of emotional moments and letting them in on how can we make this better? How can, and having honest discussions, I think. one of the most wonderful things that came out of that is that it really made me less afraid and it made them less afraid of emotion. Because, like, you know, I could not stuff this down. And so, and they were seeing that.

So it's like, how do we navigate this kind of as a family? And we're talking about it. And we're talking about emotion. And I don't remember ever doing that as a kid with my parents. Talking about emotions. No. When something challenging would have. happen in the family or...

I mean, maybe intermittently, but not like, not like, this is where sadness is coming from in the brain. This is like, when you feel this way, what's the difference between like feeling sad and feeling scared and, you know, things like that? We're really talking about emotion a lot more. And like, you know, if we are, if we see something on TV, like, my husband, watch the goonies with them the other day. And I was like, all right, great.

But like talking to them about like, okay, look at this. What do you think they were feeling at that spot? So just like talking about it and integrating emotion into the conversation. Yeah. I think that's powerful. Yeah, I do too. So I feel like if you don't talk about, I think maybe there's, you know, what is it called gentle parenting or something where it's like maybe there's too much emotion every day long talking about it.

But I think having those moments where you talk about your feelings or your emotions at different times, I think help kids realize it's not like something to stuff and you can't have emotion. Yeah. And I think there's an extreme. The other side where you're talking about it all day long every day. It's too much. Like, how are you feeling and tell me more? And, you know, I think it was maybe too much.

I haven't gotten to that point yet because they're still young. They can't talk yet. Yeah, it can't talk yet. I feel like with gentle parenting and my mom's a gentle parenting. Yeah, we talk about this all the time. And I feel like, I mean, in my brain, I thought. as a parent, like my Pinterest version of myself was that I would be a gentle parent. I'm not at all. But I think that sometimes it's a fine line between emotionally validating and kind of letting the child to figure out, but also giving that firmness and structure.

Because I think it really need that. Boundaries. You need boundaries. And you need like the kid can't navigate the, because then you get your whole slew of other things going on. Like it's really difficult for them to handle it. will disappoint them later. It's really difficult for them to understand how to be, yeah, how to be resilient. If someone doesn't have the ability to handle rejection, what type of life will they live? I don't know. There'll be a psychiatrist on social media, I guess. No, I feel like

rejection is just such a normal part of the human experience. And a lot of times, rejection is just redirection, right? It's, it kind of pushes you into a different pathway. I think what's important. But if you never learned how to navigate and handle rejection, small or big, what happens to your body, to your life, to your mind? I mean, I think you get consumed by it. Like, a lot of times, sometimes you see rejection and in people trying to avoid that or potentially deal with it in a different capacity. You see a lot of compensation. behavior. So you see a lot of perfectionism. You see a lot of people pleasing. You see a lot of different pathways that, yes, initially may feel advantageous. So this is people aren't criticizing me.

I am always top of my game. I'm getting validating comments. This is great. But like in terms of sustainability, what is that doing to the quality of your life? What is that doing over time to you? What happens when you are normal one day? And everyone's like, are you sick? Like, what's happening to you? And so I think it's just a balance of trying to understand yourself because if you never really get on top of how to navigate rejection, how to navigate criticism, you're going to find other maladaptive ways to do it. Yeah. And I think also if you never learn how to do it, you may never go after what you want because you're afraid of the rejection happening. So you never go for the career you want or launch the project you want or go for the relationship you want. or go for the relationship you want because you're afraid of the potential rejection that may or may not happen. Yes.

And how to navigate the feeling of not being good enough if and when that happens. And just like anticipating that acute pain I think is so hard. I've had many patients who come into me. And, you know, you're talking about just their overall history. You're talking about medical stuff going on. You're talking about psychiatric stuff. then you just break into like kind of socially what's what's happening in your life what's your life structured like and they talk about within relationships how that's a thing that they really

really want i i said my parents have had a 35 year relationship they're so happy i want that i want kids someday i want all of these things but i can't get past that initial point or if we get into a conflict it gets so hard and i'm back away and so it's it's difficult and i feel like in my 20s, you know, I tell my husband, like, I've never been broken up with because I would leave. I like, I think this would get a little hard. We're like, I'm out. Wow. So never broke up with you. You broke up with them or you left. I would just be like, this is scary. I'm out of here. And I, and I would use the excuse of like, I'm in medical school. I don't like, I'm too busy. I'm too busy. And so it would be me running away from that. And I feel like my husband kind of

snuck past the guard on that one because we were long distance. So I didn't have, I wasn't constantly reading his tone or his body language. We had, you know, we were communicating, be a text and phone call and all of the stuff. And it was just, it felt so easy and comforting. And by the time, we were in the same spot. Did you try to run at one point where you're like, uh, it's too much conflict? He's pretty easy to be around. He's peaceful. He sounds like, hey, what's going on? Why are you feeling this way? What's such joy? That's amazing.

He's involved. Yeah, yeah. It's good. You got lucky. He had two older sisters. And I think they just like beat it into him. Yeah. It's good.

I have two older sisters as well. Yeah. It's probably why I was too sensitive and also emotionally like, hey, it was going on. You know, it's like. Yeah. You can tell. That's interesting. So there was not enough conflict for you to feel like I'm out once you got close.

No. Believe me. There was plenty of conflict. But it wasn't. For you to feel like you're out, though. At one point, we did. breakup, but it wasn't conflict on his and our part. I think it was... Did you end it? Oh, so you did. You still haven't even broken up with, yeah.

I did. But I think that that was, like, from a cultural perspective, we couldn't figure out how to blend those two. Is it a white guy? Yeah. Oh, wow. And so I was like, I don't, I'm like, my family, I mean, it just like historically has had arranged marriages. This, this was, like, so out of the norm. What do you mean? You have love. Yeah, what is this? You're allowed to love someone. It's crazy because my parents were so in love. They were truly meant for each other. And so I had this like expectation like that's what it's going to be. There's no. And then, you know, it just, it blossomed into this wonderful relationship. And then I was like, wait, but that's not what we're supposed to do. I'm not supposed to do that. My family doesn't want that. And

then we had to. Why waste your time with someone if you weren't supposed to do that? I don't know. I don't know. It has happened. Everyone goes through the phase. Then they're like, all right. He was so handsome. Well, there you go. There you go.

So, I mean, it's like giving that opportunity 10 out of 10 times, I'm going to take that opportunity. But your fear of either rejection from your family or society or the culture was like, oh, I'm not doing it the way it's supposed to be. And so part of you were as afraid of that rejection feeling. I don't want to let down my parents. I don't want to. And since that time, it's been like such. a beautiful blending and everything has been great. But that initial period, I think it was too scary. How long were you together for before that breakup? Like three years. Wow. So didn't you know,

though, going into it like, this isn't going to last if the fear of rejection, I'm going to back out eventually because it's not an arranged marriage? Okay, can I tell you, though? Because it was such a cute story that I was like, it's fate. Clearly this has to, like, we, we ended up seeing. each other and I saw him from like across a restaurant. I was like, awesome. And so like I went and immediately talked to him and he had been sent from across the street because that bartender across the street was like, go and talk to that girl, you'll like her. And then later I found out that my best friend's parents had been trying to set us up on a blind aid for two years. And I kept saying like, no, I don't want to. I don't like, just show me a picture. And it wouldn't.

And I was like, the guy's got to be a dog. Like, no. And so I was just like, there's so many. But then you had the fear after three years that like, oh, we can't do this. I think it became so real because we're like, well, what do we do here? Because I'm ending school. Like we have been together. We love each other so much. Do we get married? Do we cut ties?

Like, this is such a transitional spot. And then I was just like, ah, too scary too much. And like at that point, I was just like, my parents were just. had such a hard time with it that I was like, I can't, yes. So three years they had a hard time with it. Oh, they didn't know for the first part. Oh, wow. Wow.

So the first couple of years, they didn't know. I mean, so you're also afraid, you were also afraid of the rejection from your parents that you weren't even telling them. Yeah. For a couple of years. Yeah.

Long distance. Wow. So you had a fear around the rejection from them as well. Big time, because I knew my expectation. What my expectation was is that, you finish your educational kind of background, and then you go into this next season of life. And at that point, your parents know you so well,

they find you a partner that you, and you date them for a while. If you like them, you get married to that person. If you don't like them, you try again. But it's someone that your family has vetted, and they know the family,

and they know everything about them. And it's like, it's like, it's not even like just your parents. It's like, you have, like, the way in from all these people of like, I think that's going to be a good match. So I just kind of assumed that was my trajectory. And so I was like, when we got to this point where I'm like, oh, God, I like this,

I fell in love with this beautiful, beautiful person in mind. Emotionally evolves, beautiful, kind. And like, and I'm going to say no to him? Family. I mean, I just. And where when I hear stories like this, where people are watching and listening, you're like, you found a dream man. And the other way would be like, what are you doing?

You know, it's like, how can you say no to this? It's insane. And like, Lewis, you lay eyes on this man. Pat him guy, huh? Even I would be attracted. Yes. It's in part. Like, he will get stopped in public and I'm like, I'm right here.

It's, but it is one of those things where I was so terrified of what does this mean? What does this mean? What does this mean? I cannot, I have to let this go. And so I think that was hard. And then, you know. So how did you get back together then? How did you overcome the fear of rejection from your whole community?

Yeah. Your parents, your family, your Stennan family, everyone judging you, making you wrong for making this choice, how did you overcome that fear? Now, keep in mind that even though all of this was kind of happening, I truly understood even, even, even, as this was happening in real time. And he understood, too, which was incredible, that this is so culturally driven. This wasn't, this wasn't that they hated him. This wasn't that they didn't trust me.

Although I had a terrible track record. So, like, this was, this is what we do culturally. Your mom and I are so happy. We want that happiness for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So after a month of us, and I told David, I'm like, we can't talk because it'll break my heart. You can't do that.

this man calls me. I was in a call room in Phoenix. And I was on call. So I pick up the phone. And I was like, it told you not to call. He calls me. And he's like,

I will wait as long as it takes. If you have to, I will move on when you get married. And I was like, holy cow. I can't pass that up. Holy cow. So what?

So then I was like, all right, then let's do this. Let's do it. And so then that next day, I was like, this is happening to my family. Wow.

And it was a rejection. It wasn't, it was a cold. cultural clash and they were like, this can't work. Like we, this isn't, like, he doesn't come from the same cultural background. How are you going to raise kids together? Like, it's going to be a blend. There's going to be too many barriers.

We're so scared about this process. Wow. And it was difficult because for a while, they weren't even, like, the two parties weren't even interacting with each other because my parents were like, just make this go away. I'm like, we'll figure it out. And then we got all the way until, you know, we're getting married and we're doing all these things. It was really after kids where it was just like everything kind of clicked into place. And then my parents were like, oh, I get it.

And it was just like that fear of me like not following cultural things they could see then in their own. way and their own conclusions that this is such a loving, supportive person who truly like cradles my whole life, makes it so easy. Wow. And so, I mean, once they saw that, once they saw him as a father, what they saw him as a, it just like everything. And towards the end of my dad's life, my husband's mom died of brain cancer. And so he knew this process.

he was there like every second tending to my dad. Oh, my gosh. I know. I want to give this guy a hug. He's, you should. He's great. How long you guys been married now? We just had our 10 year age.

Holy cow. Yeah. Two kids, 10 years married, and you haven't run away. No. I don't think I'm going to. I'm tired. And so it's like, you've shown that like, hey, it doesn't have to be this cultural way to be the only way also. Yeah.

Even though they rejected it or were not fans of it and pushed it away for a long time, it took time for you guys to face that together. But it seems like a beautiful love story. It was, it's my favorite love story. Wow. But to be honest, I think that the cultural kind of expectation of an arranged marriage really good for someone who's scared of rejection. Like, this is already, this is already set for me.

But isn't it part of a human being's experience to have to overcome that fear of rejection rather than saying, all right, just take care of it for me and I'm going to stay a kid forever because I'm going to let my parents always do things for me instead of have the courage to face potential rejection. I don't necessarily think having an arranged marriage like I think there's so many people who do that and are perfectly evolved and they're whole for me, myself. If I had gone down that road, it was simply because I would be too skisket to step out of that cultural lane. Yeah.

And it was truly because he was so wonderful that I was able to. And, like, wonderful in a way that, like, most people would have, if there is a family that's like, we don't want you. Yeah, he still stayed. Yes. This guy's a saint. This guy's a saint. That's great.

Sasha, I got to get to the end here. I've got a couple final questions for you before I asked them. I want people to check out your book. Too sensitive. Rejection, resilience, and the science of feeling deeply. Yeah. I wish I had this book when I was a teenager. Me too.

Me too. This is a question everyone, I ask everyone at the end called the three truths. Okay. Hypothetical scenario. You get to live as long as you want on this earth, but it's the last day for you in the future. And you get to create and experience life on your terms. All your dreams come true. You write tons of bestselling books.

It all comes through to you. Yeah. But on the last day, you have to take all your work with you. And no one in this world has. access to your content anymore. But you get to leave behind three truths. And from everything you've learned in life, everything you've learned in your work, family, relationships,

you get to leave behind three truths, three lessons you would leave with the world. What would those three truths be for you? Okay. The first one are, the first one is, don't be scared of your emotions. Like, lean into them.

I think that's a really important one that for me, even sometimes I'd be scared by the highs I would feel by something because I'm like, it's going to go away. So just like be able to feel them, be able to process them. That's one. The other truth is I think there's nothing more precious than time with loved ones. I just feel so strongly about that. And I feel like it takes like if you're lucky enough.

to have those relationships where you can continue to cultivate and grow them and spend that time and energy with that quality time. There's nothing better than that. And the third truth is to lead with kindness even when the world expects you not to. Because I think the world is a hard place and I think you just need to infuse more of what you want to see. That's beautiful. I want to acknowledge you, Sasha, for the journey you've been on. I know it's not been easy, from the marriage stuff to your dad passing and all the things you've had to face in your practice. And people need this work more now than ever.

So I acknowledge you for putting this book out there, for sharing your content online and for having the courage to face rejection yourself as a great example for other people as well. So I acknowledge you for that. My final question, Sasha, what's your definition of greatness? Greatness is truly understanding and being able to work with your brain. Because I think that that lives in us. And it's just a matter of understanding how your brain works and how to unlock that potential. Awesome. Thanks for being here.

Appreciate it. Of course. Anytime. Amazing. Powerful. Yay. My friend, I hope you're enjoying this episode right now because we are on a mission to impact 100 million lives every single week. and every follow here on this podcast helps us reach more people.

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