The School of Greatness - The Science Behind What We Get Wrong About Relationships EP 1328

Episode Date: October 5, 2022

Eric Barker is the author of The Wall Street Journal bestseller “Barking Up the Wrong Tree,” which has sold over half a million copies and been translated into 19 languages. Eric is also a sought-after speaker, having given talks at MIT, the Aspen Ideas Festival, Google, the United States Military Central Command, and the Olympic Training Center. His new bestseller, “Plays Well with Others,” was released in May of 2022.In this episode you will learn,The importance of having uncomfortable conversations early in your relationships.Three questions to ask yourself before you commit to a relationship.How love and relationships have evolved over generations. The difference between loneliness and solitude. For more, go to lewishowes.com/13283 Ways to Become More Desirable In Relationships [MASTERCLASS] https://link.chtbl.com/1326-pod5 Relationship Mistakes You Must Avoid to Find Deeper Connection w/ Jay Shetty [AWKWARD THERAPY] https://link.chtbl.com/1322-podWhy Emotional Agility Is The Most Important Skill You Need To Know: https://link.chtbl.com/1297-pod

What would you say in the research you did were the big flags, red flags, for why this person probably won't be a great relationship partner for you long term? What are those big red flags that you think that everyone should be looking out for? I mean, first and foremost is that issue of not communicating. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Welcome back everyone in School of Greatness greatness very excited about our guest the icon eric barker in

the house good to see you man welcome back welcome back to the show it's been a few years you've got an amazing new book play well with others the surprising science behind why everything you know about relationships is mostly wrong i want to start with this question what do you think are the three biggest things people get wrong about love and relationships in general? Well, I mean, I think the first thing people think is that, you know, we can just kind of avoid problems. That conflict is bad. Conflict is going to grow. And the truth is you got to have those hard conversations. The majority of marriages don't end in yelling and screaming. the majority of marriages end when people live parallel

lives you yell and scream when you care once you stop caring it goes in another direction number two I think the big thing is this is research from John Gottman is like the leading reason the best yeah it's great is that he listened to couples argue and 96% of the time by listening to the first three minutes, he could predict how it ended. If it starts ugly, it's going to end ugly. If you can take a deep breath, you can chill out a little bit. You're going to be so much better. It's just that little bit, how we begin predicts how we end. And the third thing I would say is like, there's a lot of difficult stuff on love and marriage that we don't hear about.

You know, it's like a lot of things, two or three years after people get married, their happiness level is pretty much where they were before. Sometimes it declines. So you got to keep it alive. And one of the things I talk about in the book is basically you got to keep dating. The thing is when people go on pleasant dates, the research shows, people gotta go on exciting dates. Adventures. Adventures are key.

Adventures are key. People think, oh, well, we did all that fun, exciting stuff when we first started dating because we were in love. It's, you know, but actually it goes both ways. You did it because you were in love, but that's also what produced the love. So we keep doing exciting things. In psychology, they're called emotional contagion.

Whatever environment we're in, we kind of pick up those emotions and we associate that with who we're with. If you're at concerts, it's exciting. And if you do fun things with your partner, you can keep love alive. So if you do all that for the first couple of years, then you just coast, it's hard to keep the love alive from years ago, a bond. You can stay connected, but you may not have as rich or fulfilling of a love life is what I'm hearing you say. Absolutely. It's like to just to just to kind of like hit love with the defibrillator paddles

and keep it going where it's like, that's why a lot of people feel resentful in relationships because, oh, we used to do this. You used to do this for me as opposed to kind of keeping it going. It seems to be a trend for a lot of relationships that you used to do this and the other person used to do this, but after two, five, 10 years, they stopped doing it. Why do you think so many people stop living the adventurous life in the relationship once they're together after a period of time? I mean, a lot of it is we get busy, you know, and a lot of it is people get kind of in a rut, but those ruts are really dangerous. It's like what happens is Gottman calls it negative sentiment override. And basically what that is, is basically the lack of talking, the lack of

communication, it compounds negatively. Instead of having a conversation with your partner, you start having a conversation with yourself where they say, oh, if I raised this issue, they'd probably say, and that can spiral into negativity. Gottman talks about love maps, which is like really getting to know your partner, not how they like their coffee, not where they like to vacation, but asking them the tough questions. What does love mean to you? What does happiness mean to you what does a great partner mean to you because that's something you you can never get unless you ask them and you're getting the answers to the test so what is a love map then a love map is basically just that knowledge of your partner

where you are asking this is what makes them happy this is what makes them less happy but rather than like I said the minutiae you know what bothers them about their day asking them the questions that there aren't black and white answers to what is happiness what does love mean what does marriage mean because it answers so much when you think and we tend to think that everyone That everyone thinks the same way as us, or the same beliefs, but we don't. And then you're thinking, oh, I didn't take the trash out. It's not that big a deal because I don't think it's that big a deal. Whereas your partner sees that as a sign that you care.

And we just associate different values. But if you ask, you can say, maybe I don't think this is that big a deal, but they really do think it's a big deal and vice versa. When the things that you feel, oh, they're neglectful. It's like, no, you got to tell them. They got to know. Wow. What do you think are three questions we should all know before deciding to commit to a relationship? Well, what does love mean to you? What does a good partner mean to you? You know, if it's on the way to marriage, you know, what does marriage mean to you?

Because we live in a world with so many options and possibilities, and that's awesome. But that's the trickiest thing. Eli Finkel's done research at Northwestern, and like what he's found is this tremendous shift where number one, over the past 20 years, the importance of marriage as a relationship has nearly doubled.

Before you were part of, there was a bowling league and the Oak Lodge and people were involved in different communities. Now, so much of that has been centralized in marriage that knowing how happy someone's marriage is is insanely predictive of how happy their life is because it has been so invested. You're so integrated into them. Yeah, yeah. It's like that.

It's almost make or break. And with all these options, all these possibilities, you know, marriage has been stripped down. Like we don't have as many formal rules as we used to. There's so many positives to that. But there's also negatives, too, because you don't have a break. You don't have a seatbelt. Give me an example. What do you mean by that? In terms of like men need to do this, women need to do this, or that we don't have a template like we used to have. There's not traditional roles like there used to be.

And that's a great thing. It's also a challenge. It's a great thing Because what that means this is what Finkel found is that the average relationship? Isn't as good as it marriages and as good as it used to be But the best marriages today are the best marriages there have ever been Because of a lack of formal rules if you know what you want and you put in the work You can create a custom script that works awesome for both of you. So it's a custom script, but it probably sounds like there's still some formal, there's some agreements to the custom script.

It's not an outdated agreement that was society's, it has to be this way or this way, but it's new agreements that you're both in alignment to. Is that what I'm hearing you say? Exactly. That's what we decided on. This is what works for us. Nobody else wrote them for us, but we also didn't neglect to create them at all. We said, this is what works for us. And these are the people who are having, like I said, the best marriages that have ever existed. So what are the best marriages that have ever existed have in place? Are there roles and responsibilities? Are there roles and responsibilities? Are there shared agreements? Are they communicating a certain way? What are the main themes that they all have? What you see consistently is first that level of communication where, again, you can't

avoid it because when you avoid it, you start making assumptions and those are usually negative. So basically, as Gottman found, it's like, you have to argue, you have to fight. It has to happen. Complaining is actually a good thing in a marriage. Really? Basically. He looked at the, like, I think the first year or two of marriage and the couples that complained the least for the first two years, it seemed like it was going really well. They're the ones that divorced later because they weren't working through any problems. They were ignoring them. So the couples that had a moderate level of disagreement, they were getting comfortable. They were working out the things. They were agreeing. They were laying down the faults.

And then it was okay. It's like getting settled in a new job. So there has to be a level of complaint. The only time complaint gets bad is when it becomes criticism The difference is when you personalize it you didn't take out the trash. That's fine You didn't take out the trash because you're an idiot. That's a problem. Good. Yeah when when it's about an activity That's okay when it's about people's fundamental personality that doesn't tend to go well I'm so glad you're sharing this because it's interesting Because I was probably like, huh, I wonder if I'm doing it wrong. Because I've been in a relationship.

We've been together for a while now. And I said to her before we got committed, I said, the only way I'm willing to get into a new relationship, because I've been in many that didn't work out. And I was like, the only way I'm going to get into a new one is if under a few conditions. One, the person I'm in a relationship with is doing some type of consistent therapy. It doesn't have to be every week, but something consistently once a month, right? Where they're working on their own emotional challenges.

They're working through them and processing, healing and all that stuff. Number two, they've got to be willing to do therapy with me in the beginning because my goal is to have the uncomfortable conversations without complaining or arguing, but have them in a safer environment where we can both communicate. And it doesn't feel good. You know, it's like, ah, it's a little scary. It's a little messy, but it's an unconscious space with a third party who can give us tools, who can help us then

align on agreements that work for both of us. And it's been incredible. It's been incredible because of that shift where I think a lot of people go into therapy when it's not working to try to make it work and resolve things because they've neglected the complaining or the conversation, the communication. I was like, let's just skip all the complaining and figure out the agreements early on. So we don't have to get to a place of stress or not talking about stuff. But we haven't been complaining with each other. So it's kind of like, am I worried that we haven't been complaining, but we've been communicating agreements and aligning to them.

So it's been a beautiful thing. You did the work upfront. I mean, the biggest reason, most marriage therapy doesn't work. And one of the biggest reasons why it doesn't work is people wait too long to go. It's too late, right? Basically people don't wait until six years in

and actually most divorces occur four years in. 40 years in? Four years in. And then so by people are going, a lot of the stuff is too far gone. You're already like, I'm over it. I'm exhausted. I don't care about this person anymore. I'm resentful.

It's just to diverge too much. It's too far, right? Yeah. You, instead of going to a doctor's appointment, you said, let's go to the gym and stay in shape. Now. And we don't need to have the open heart surgery, literally, later. Yeah. And then try to recover from the wounds that are so like broken, right?

Well, that's what's so powerful is like you had someone to kind of poke and prod the two of you to open up. Absolutely. And do it instead of just checking the box. We talked like you had a professional go, no, no, you got to open up and do it instead of just checking the box. We talked like you had a professional go now, now you got to open up a little bit more. And it sounds like you really laid a lot of good groundwork and got it out there. Yeah.

And we're, you know, we're spending four to six hour sessions on Saturday sometimes just to make sure, all right, let's talk about all these things that might be, that might be an issue later down the line or that are unclear right now. Let's get clarity so there's no confusion.

And I think, you know, I've experienced a lot of pain in previous relationships that I take responsibility for because I stayed in these things. But I think because I experienced so much of that, I was just like, I don't want any of that anymore. You know, I'd rather be so open, courageous in my communication, talk about all the uncomfortable things, even if it doesn't feel good, to eliminate later pain. Dive into it now so I don't have it later. Well, I mean, you set up an environment where you were able to be compassionate with one another. You had a professional there. You both agreed to this.

It didn't happen spontaneously when somebody was angry. Being compassionate in the middle of conversations. Gottman talks about repair, where it's like, even if you're having big problems, if you pause to be a little compassionate, to show a little respect. So hard for people though. It's, well, because by the time anybody has a conversation, they're usually so worked up and angry already. It's like you went in there calm and cool. You had a referee and you both let it out. Exactly. Yeah. And letting it out in a conscious way. What does the science say that you've done on the research on it about history of relationships that most people don't know about? Well, in terms of how they worked in the past? Yes. And then now where we're at now and where you think it's going

to be? See, the interesting thing is in the past, it was very prescribed. I mean, you had arranged marriages, you know, you had everything kind of set up that basically was all formal systems. That was good for society in some ways because it kept the smooth running machine, but it wasn't really good for the individual. Even if you go back to the 1960s, the percentage of men and women who said, oh, you know, you don't have to be in love with the person you get married, was staggeringly high compared to now, love is considered essential.

That's really great, but the challenge we're facing is we created this winner-take-all environment where in the past it was very formal, love wasn't as important stability rock solid now we want it all and that's tricky to keep it stable to keep it safe potentially to raise children and also you have to fulfill me and bring me everything i've ever dreamed and the problem the thing is we face those challenges we can overcome them the the thing is, we face those challenges, we can overcome them. The issue is that a lot of people have fairytale visions. And fairytale visions can be problematic because they're passive.

It's supposed to magically happen to me. As opposed to rolling up your sleeves, then you can have one of those best marriages that have ever existed. Right. Where both parties are doing 100% of the effort and intention, not waiting for the other person to give them something all day long and make them feel a certain way. I mean, we spend a lot of time hoping the other person will read our mind. And as opposed to when we have those conversations like you did, where you made it right up front, it's like, not only do we kind of get the answers to the test, this is what happiness is, this is what marriage is to them.

But also, when you learn where people's needs are coming from, you can find a way to honor both of your values. It's like, oh, they go to the bathroom in the middle of the night. They leave the light on. It drives me crazy. Okay, well, if you found out, that's because they had a childhood fear of the dark. Now, oh, I understand. Oh, my God. People, once you understand the story, once you understand the narrative, you understand where those feelings are coming from, we get so more compassionate.

But if we don't have that conversation, then we assume it's because they're out to get us and to try to ruin my life. Sure, sure. I've talked to a few people who have been married for 40 plus years who are happily married, which there's a lot of people that have been married for a long time that are not happy, right? Or that just surviving, they're not thriving in the marriage. And I'll ask them these questions like, what's the key to being happy consistently? Obviously, it might have some ups and downs, but like staying connected and happy and all those things and integrity. And almost all of them say that 80% of it is who you choose. And I think when we don't have the conscious conversations early on and we neglect the uncomfortable conversations early on

to make sure we're in alignment with our values, our vision, our lifestyle, our agreements, when we neglect that, it just causes more pain in the future. When you keep kind of the mask of the potential fairy tale of what you think they're going to do without actually asking the questions. Yeah. How important is it for people to be consistently having these uncomfortable conversations early on? No.

It's essential. Because what you're talking about, like that issue of selection, is this person right? This is why you hear so much about people trying to change their partners because you didn't pick the right one you didn't pick the right one you don't accept them because you didn't pick the right one because if we would ask these questions earlier in the relationships yeah we would be able to say okay separate our image of a perfect person yeah and say okay actually they don't think about money this way or they don't think about raising kids this way or they have a religious belief that it's different from mine.

And we could say, oh, you're a great person, but it's probably not the right fit for me and my life's vision. But a lot of us don't do that. We're too chemically bonded by the feelings of love and the chemical connections that kind of cloud us from those other big decisions. Yeah. I think with the little stuff, like how you argue, how you dispute, those you can work on. You're probably not going to change somebody's fundamental values. So finding out upfront, this is what they think about marriage. This is what they think about love. It's like couples argue a lot about money. It's like, why is that why is that? Well, it's very simple You know, it's like because money is a quantification of values Did I spend money on things that benefit the family or selfishly benefit myself? Did I spend money on?

Money is a you get a number This is how important this is to me and if you're not on the same page in terms of what's important to you It's often gonna show up in terms of money. So it's like Understanding hey, we're on the same page because feelings often fade, especially if we don't work on it. But if you have the same values, then you know you're headed in the same direction. Then it's just tick-tacking to get it perfect instead of trying to close this huge chasm that you didn't know was there. So how important is values in choosing the right partner?

I mean, I think it's critical. I mean, you can make things work if you really have it, but it's like to understand. It's so much harder, right? How do you make it more effortless is by being in alignment on these things, right? What are the three to five values that we should really have figured out? Where it's not perfect match, but you're in alignment. 80% of the values, oh yeah, that makes sense. And I'm here.

What are those three to five key values for a relationship? I mean, I think a big issue is the issue of like, what is success to us? You know, being able to say, it's kind of like, when are we on the right track when we're spending as much time together as humanly possible? Or are we on the right track when, you know,

we both have a balance? Getting that issue of like of what do we value and how do we honor both of those things, this is something critical that can be very difficult to figure out later on. Because one of the critical things is when people are trying to change their partner, there's a way to do this

and there's a way to do it successfully. And they actually call it the Michelangelo effect because it's, but what it way to do this and there's a way to do it successfully and they actually call it the Michelangelo effect because it's it's but what it has to do with is finding out who your partner's ultimate vision of themself is and moving them towards that so to your point if their values are so far astray from yours you're actually moving them further away from you because if you're going to yell at them or chide them, that's not going to work. But if they have this vision of who they'd like to be and you help them get towards that, it's great for both of you.

Yes. But if your values are so different, you're actually hurting the relationship to make them better. Is it possible to change your partner then? You can. But it's exactly the steps that you talked about, where if we know our values are pretty similar, and we know that maybe because of circumstances or lack of confidence, they're not moving in the direction that they want to move in. If you look at who do they see, not you see, who do they see as their ideal self, and you start to support them in those endeavors, they see as their ideal self, and you start to support them in those endeavors, then they become a better version of themselves. And that is going to make them happy. They're going to be

likely to move forward. It's what they want. And be more grateful in the relationship for you. Exactly. For supporting them. Yes. So it's like, it's understanding where they want to go and supporting them in that, but you need the answer upfront and it needs to be aligned with yours. And what happens if you try to change someone in a relationship to meet your needs and your desires of what you like as opposed to what they want? Yeah, that's disastrous.

That's what most people do. And that's what doesn't work because you're trying to make them into something they're not. Best case scenario is they're not gonna be very good at it. Worst case scenario is they're gonna be resentful because you're basically saying you're not good enough or I don't like you as you are. Right. So you need to change to make me happier. And so if you understand upfront, we are both generally headed in the same direction

and helping them be better is helping them be better for you. you. What is a maybe a controversial strategy or technique to making a relationship better, deeper, stronger? What's really interesting is all the research on narrative, on the research on stories. And one thing that's very controversial is people often don't know the story that they're looking for people think that oh i want this kind of person and they always end up with the other kind of person and they want to blame the world and it's like if you keep choosing the same partner time and time again it's probably you right You need to look at that and there's some just amazing work in terms of figuring out what your story is, figuring out what your partner's story is because some people think they're looking for a romance, they're actually looking for a war story.

Some people enjoy the conflict, nobody wants to admit that. But to be honest with yourself and then be honest with your partner and to find a partner that you're aligned with, those are the relationships that work is when we say, again, not to speculate, but to look back. Not to say, well, I think, no, that's rationalizing versus five times in a row I did this. That's probably what I usually do. You can change it. But it's like to say, this is the pattern I'm looking for. You know, what does that say about me? What do I want to change? And is that aligned with what my partner wants? It's deep, it's hard, it's painful, but it's incredibly powerful.

What's the biggest thing you've learned about yourself in the last few years from doing this research and working on this book about how you've done things incredibly well in previous relationships and how you've, like maybe something in the book where you're like, wow, I never did this well. And it's probably, you know, why it caused challenge in the past. Oh, just the issue of opening up. Really? Yeah. The vulnerability issue. Like we know that's, I think we've heard a lot that it's powerful for romantic relationships, but it's just in friendships, in every relationship. In work, it can be a challenge if you're in a leadership role, you do need to be seen as authoritative.

But like even in your friendships, Arthur Aaron at Stony Brook University, he got people who are strangers to feel like lifelong friends in an hour by just making them answer questions that progressively had them reveal more about themselves in one hour because they had to proceed, answer this question, answer this question, and people find connections. And what's really critical there is that issue of vulnerability because if I'm just giving facts, that's fine. Similarities, very powerful. But what's more important is when I tell you something about me that could make me look bad, that maybe could be used against me, that could embarrass me or shame me, I am basically, I am not saying I trust you. I am demonstrating. I'm handing you a knife and I'm saying you could stab me. I trust you not to do it. That is a powerful

way to demonstrate I trust you and people are likely to reciprocate. And once you escalate that, I go a little deeper, you go a little bit deeper. Now, there's not an idea of trust. There's a feeling of trust. That's interesting. And I think you've got to be, I think some people maybe don't do that as much as they would because they maybe have opened up or been vulnerable and had like a narcissistic relationship that has used that vulnerability against them later in their relationship and manipulated them with their vulnerabilities

as opposed to trusted them and held it with a kindness. So I think that's why some people might stop opening up not everyone but and why it's hard for people if they've been used against their vulnerability and that's why it is tough to be vulnerable because you don't want someone to use it against you well and we can mitigate that the the issue is start small start small do they reciprocate don't tell me your whole life trauma right away yeah don't confess to any murders you know over thanksgiving dinner you know it's like start small do they reciprocate are they being vulnerable back if they're not then this is already feeling

a little one-sided then don't keep giving more and more yeah so it's like if you start small they give back you know you know tit for tat a little bit just where you're opening up They opening up and what you're gonna find is that that is, you know, really powerful But if they don't respond then what's great to your point is then it becomes a litmus test Okay, this really is it's not gonna go that far right because they don't want to open up to me They don't trust me in the same way to give the same way. So maybe I should not trust them at that level. Interesting. It's fascinating. I bet that experiment,

you know, if you did this for a day with strangers, I bet you can get strangers to be closer friends than some people who've spent a year together with surface conversations, than a day together with vulnerable intimate conversations this is the uh arthur aaron the same guy who did that the one hour to to feeling like a lifelong friend the uh research assistants in his lab who initially helped him with that work ended up falling in love and getting married come on because they had to solve the same test And they had to open up. Wow. And these people fell in love because, again, we usually play it too safe.

And the thing is, when we play it safe, we talk about narrow topics. We are not creating the surface area for people to connect with us. The greater that surface area, the more possibilities for similarity and the more possibilities for someone to say you know what they're like me i trust them this is this is worth pursuing you know let's hang out more let's spend more time together exactly what were some of those questions in that hour-long experience you know they weren't anything crazy i mean it was kind of if you could have dinner with anyone living or dead who would it be you know if what is your idea of a perfect day you know they weren't too invasive he had like three stages where they got progressively more intimate but none of them

were like talking about you know deep childhood trauma or something like that it was just enough that you could say something and they could respond to it and they could feel a level of similarity and they could start to get an idea, again, the values issue of what, if you could have dinner with any person living or dead, I'm getting to know what your values are. And why do you wanna, yeah, if it's like some random,

I don't know, pop star that really didn't have a meaningful life, you're like, okay, that's interesting, versus, I don't know, Einstein or someone really didn't have a meaningful life. You're like, okay, that's interesting. Versus, I don't know, Einstein or someone. Yeah. Or Nelson Mandela or something. We're like, okay, that's interesting. Why? Do they prioritize emotions? Do they prioritize knowledge? Do they prioritize curiosity? Who is this person? And just having that reciprocal, because both people had to answer all the questions. Right. You'll see, are they actually opening up or are they kind of just keeping it safe?

Yeah, and it was like you start to get this pastiche. You start to see this pattern. Oh, again and again, I'm hearing a more cerebral approach, or I'm hearing a more empathetic approach. I think just doing the exercise, even if you didn't like the answers, you still probably would respect that someone was being honest and sharing and opening up about their life, about their beliefs or visions.

You can be like, wow, it's really cool we got to connect on this. And it's cool that you did the same thing as me, even if I don't align with you. Yeah. But it's more than people just not sharing those things at all. It can be in surface conversations, right? Well, I think, you know, what I think you said that was critical was just that idea of respect where I might hear your answers and I might, they may not be similar to mine. They may not be relatable to mine, but I can hear you say something and I can go, wow, that took guts. That is not the kind of thing I would say to a stranger. And he went there. To courage. You can respect. You can be like, okay, I like that.

You could have played it safe and you didn't. Like that's that vulnerability trust issue. Because when I looked at the research, I looked at like all of Dale Carnegie's stuff for making friends. And it turns out most of what Carnegie said was pretty accurate. Most of it was pretty accurate. But it's the beginning of a relationship. As we get deeper, what's there? We're not trying to build just acquaintances.

And the two critical things were time and vulnerability. Vulnerability like the issue of not only trying to empower our relationships but also Robert Garfield at University of Pennsylvania found that not being vulnerable in your relationships increases the chance of a first heart attack and increases the chance that heart attack will be lethal. Come on, really? We need to open up. We need to share this. At least with someone, right? At least with one person in our lives. So he said that the research is showing that if you're not vulnerable with your intimate partner or friendships, you're more likely to have a heart attack. Yes, and it's more likely to be lethal. Holy cow, what is that about emotions

trapped in the body or not expressed in a healthy way that makes us sick? It's stress. Is that issue where, it was stunning to me that, was it a 2009 UC Berkeley study, found that good relationships can add a decade to your lifespan potentially. A decade. It was crazy. And then there was a meta review where they look at all the studies about relationships. And what they found is that good relationships are second only to genetics in terms of predicting both health and longevity in humans. Oh my gosh.

Yeah. It's like it's so crazy we forget that there's little stressors that build up and we don't have a release valve when we can't talk about things and we can't share things, when we can't hear that it's normal, it's okay. This is really hard stuff. What was it? The issue of loneliness, the stress hormones that happen that basically cause of loneliness is the equivalent of a physical attack. Loneliness is like getting beat up. Wow. Yeah.

There's a difference between loneliness and choosing to be alone, to have alone time, to process in a healthy way, and to love on yourself and accept yourself versus I'm sad and lonely and no one cares about me. This was some of the most mind-blowing research that I looked at in here, was that issue of what you're describing is the difference between loneliness and solitude. Loneliness, this sounds totally crazy, loneliness before the 19th century basically didn't exist. We didn't have time to be. We were so enmeshed in societies, we were religions, tribes, nations. We always felt a part of something. Even if we weren't close to people, and we usually were,

we felt we were a part of something. So Faye Alberti, who is a researcher at University of York, she looked back and you basically, before the 19th century, you can't hear it mentioned because we were always embedded in a group. When you hear the word lonely, it meant something by itself. It didn't have the negative stigma. It wasn't until literally Frankenstein that you heard lonely in the 19th century start to be used as a negative thing because we had an explosion of individualism, which unlocked a lot of power, a lot of great things in the world, but we felt separate. And second crazy thing, John Cacioppo, leading researcher on loneliness. Chioppo, leading researcher on loneliness. What he found was that people who are lonely and people who are not lonely spend the same amount of time with others. Lonely people don't spend any more time alone. What he realized was that loneliness is not about proximity. We've all felt lonely in a crowd. You can be in Times Square on New Year's Eve and still feel alone. You can feel alone on the subway. Loneliness isn't lack of proximity to people.

Loneliness is how you feel about your relationships. When you go on a business trip, you might miss your friends and family, but you know they're there. You know they're missing you. You know they don't care about you. You don't feel lonely. You might miss them. Versus if you're surrounded by people, but you think nobody cares, that's when you feel lonely. It's how you feel about those relationships.

How do you shift that feeling? And what if they really don't care? Maybe it's all in your head and you're like, they don't care about me because they're not doing what I want or something. But how do you shift that to create a deeper connection and feeling about the few key relationships you have at least. Yeah. I mean that's where we want to get into time and vulnerability. Those two costly signals.

Spending more time. Spending time is one of the most powerful signals in a relationship because time is – all the stuff that Dale Carnegie talks about is easy to do. That's why we like it. That's also why manipulators like it. How you show somebody that they're really special is by costly signals. If I spend a lot of time with you, if I spend an hour a day with you, I can only do that for 24 people and I've got to sleep. That says you're special.

There's no way around that. Time is costly. Vulnerability, I'm telling you things that could be used against me. That's really, those are powerful signals. And when people reciprocate those signals, we know they're serious. If they're making the time, if they're saying things that maybe they shouldn't say, then these are people who are making the effort. The other thing that's really powerful, I found this fascinating. This was just a study that just came out in 2020, was that if you're not feeling supported enough in your relationships, an easy thing you can do is introduce your friends to one

another. Because the issue is there's a synergy. I think that word's often overused, but there's a synergy in that in the sense of having one-off relationships is great. But once you start introducing your friends, you're creating a community. Your friends can coordinate. Hey, Lewis is feeling down. We should take him out.

Now they can work together. And you're creating your own group. You're creating your own community. That is so much more powerful than a lot of one-off relationships where people can't share information and say, this is what he needs right now. That's interesting. That's something I've kind of done intuitively for the last 15 years, which is creating individual relationships and then saying, hey, let's do a dinner together and kind of bringing

everyone together. Yeah. And trying to go beyond that by saying, here's why you should know this person, and here's what you can connect on, and here's what they're working on, and here's how you guys can align on this thing. And I think the more you put people together who can benefit each other, whether it be as friends or in business or career, you're adding value to more other people in multiple ways, like you said, the synergistic ways. I think that just deepens your connection to people too. Absolutely. I mean, in terms of the emotions,

you know, there's no doubt of having these friends, but also in terms of life success, it's like Mark Granovetter did research on weak ties and where usually the things our friends know, we usually know. But when you go one degree out, those are the things we're not hearing about. Those are the things we're not connecting. When you're connecting people with other people that are one degree out from you, they're getting new ideas, new potential, new job offers, new opportunities. You're creating this whole network. You're the center.

You're the champion of all these relationships and opportunities. And that is so valuable for both sides. It's so valuable because it's so much easier for somebody else to just say, sure, I'll come to dinner than having to organize it themselves. People are really going to appreciate that. But also as you being the hub of the network, then all roads lead to you. And it usually pays dividends long term. Not that you're trying to get something out of it necessarily. And I think when it's only transactional, it doesn't feel as good. But I've had multiple people that have gotten married and now have kids because I've connected

the dots somehow to them, whether they came to an event that I put on or I introduced them or something. And so it's like you're creating a legacy in the world. Yeah. Whether you're, uh, you know, close with them or not, you're still making an impact in people's lives. And I think good things tend to happen when you impact people in that way, long-term. Yeah. Well, you're, you're, you're thinking you're, you're starting with something positive. You're starting with good intent and then you're reaching out and doing the work. It makes such a difference.

It's like, you know, there's a lot of places that say they want to have impact. It's like, no, let's have positive impact. Let's focus that a little bit more. And it's like to do that makes all the difference in the world. I mean, not only in terms of, again, relationships and love, but also in terms of career. One of the biggest tips that's come out of research in terms of people networking is there are some people who are super connectors. There are some people, if you look at your contact list, you will see they introduced

you to a disproportionate number of the people you know. And reaching out to them is a very high leverage way to network better. By creating these things, you're not only bringing people together, doing warm things, you may be helping these people get jobs and opportunities because you are the super connector. Yeah. Keith Ferrazzi wrote a book called Never Eat Alone, which talks about, you know, I think never having a meal by yourself, but always finding people to connect with and seeing how you can offer value and connecting the dots from previous connections. Yeah.

The power that comes beyond just personal relationships, but in career business as well with that network. Yeah. There's recent research by Nicholas Apley that basically showed we're often reluctant to even talk to strangers in a Starbucks or something like that. We often feel like, oh, we're going to annoy them. And the truth is that's not the case. When they surveyed people just saying something small, wow, the line's long, or how can you relate to them? We usually feel better. And when we think about it, like again, to specific, yeah, when I did say something, that person said something, we overemphasize the negative. Most of the times when we just say something nice, we reach out, we feel better, they feel better,

and sometimes it blossoms into an actual friendship. Sure, sure. This is powerful stuff, man. I'm curious. How do you know, how does someone know when they are truly in a loving partnership and this is real love versus chemicals and illusions of love? Yeah. I mean, first and foremost, there's going to be the illusions of love. Yeah. I mean, first and foremost, there's going to be the issue of time. For the first 18 months, you are going to have the chemicals. But the truth is, the chemicals usually die down.

So in longer relationships, you are going to get away from the craziness. But what's really powerful, I was surprised when I looked at the issue of love as a feeling. Love makes us nuts. Love makes us absolutely crazy. When you look at the historical documents, go back to 3000 BC and ancient Egypt. Wars and killing and this and that, yeah. Love was described as a malady. It was described as a sickness.

Really? Yes, because it was literally a diagnosable illness. And to this day, if you just- Yes. Because we get so nuts. But again- We don't have reason, right? It's like you got to have some ability to not react and explode over love.

And I was just like, why would- And the truth is, it makes sense. We talked about earlier, we're in friendship with costly signals. What is a more costly signal than I am running around like a maniac, thinking about you all the time and doing everything. I'm not behaving rationally. What is that? That tells you I am invested.

I am serious. I am incapable of, of, of callously taking advantage of you because I'm crazy. And they actually tested this. They looked at countries and communities where it was very easy to just ghost someone and countries and communities where it was very difficult. They had strong network ties. It was hard to ghost. What do you see? Where it's easier to ghost, people, the signal of love, the craziness of love is greater because your brain realizes fundamentally I need to boost the signal to show the other person

I am nuts about them. Love is stronger because it has to communicate. It is a valuable sense, it's a valuable sense to the other person that you are literally crazy about them and this gets more to your point the issue of what predicts long-term success in a relationship is you you isolate part of that crazy idealization idealization seeing that person as better than they are is not only predicts happiness in a relationship it predicts the duration and the success of a relationship.

If you see your partner or potential partner as better than they actually are, makes it a better relationship or a worse relationship? It makes it better. It makes it better. You need to see them as better than they are. It is the greatest hallmark of love. Really? Yeah.

Because we can get cynical. Everybody has flaws. When you start making negative assumptions about your partner, that's not a good sign. There's a strong correlation between how people feel on their wedding day and how things work out. When people have second thoughts, divorce is much more likely versus when people have that idealization. You've heard it. When people first start dating, they are over the moon. moon this person has done everything they've won Nobel Prizes and gold medals they are unstoppable having some of that and keeping some of

that a little bit of a rational positive because the thing is when they when they dive down and do the research these people are not deluded you realize your partner is imperfect but you're always willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. You always believe they have the potential. You always believe it's that issue of when they do something wrong, they must be having a bad day. You're compassionate. You give them the benefit of the doubt versus the idiot did it again. Those are the things. So that idealization, seeing that person as better than they are, being able to sustain that is a great sign of true love. Yeah, that's good.

So how do we do that without having expectations though? Yeah. Because what if they don't live up to that vision or that ideal and they fall short of an expectation? Yeah. Do we create expectations or not have expectations in relationships? Well, first and foremost, you want to keep the communication journals open. If those are hidden contracts, I expect you to do this, but I'm not going to tell you. Then you're screwed. Yeah. Versus when we have a clear idea, this is how you defined it, this is how I defined

happiness, okay, we both get that, we're on the same page we both know and then we talked about the Michelangelo effect you know as long as our values are aligned to be able to say I am gonna go out of my way to help to help this person be the best version of themselves now you're moving them in a direction that you're both aligned on you're helping them be better and be someone they want to be yeah this can make all the difference you are helping them be who they want to be but it also is they are fulfilling the idealization that you want so much what if they don't want to improve they don't want to take a look at their lives they don't want to

take accountability or responsibility on the stuff that's hurting them or holding them back and the other partner is all about growth and having a positive mind frame about life and compassion and forgiveness. How do you navigate that when one wants to grow and the other one is happy where they're at? I mean, if the gulf is too big, it's kind of like that's going to be really hard.

If you really think you have that much further to go and they don't, that's a very difficult situation that's going to be really hard. If you really think you have that much further go and they don't, that's a very difficult situation that might call for ending the relationship. However, what if this is an acute episode? Were they always like this? If so, if they were never wanting to improve, you were always wanting to improve, then maybe you made an error early on. If they've had a shift, then it's just maybe they're dealing with depression.

Maybe they're dealing with some problems. Maybe they're feeling cynical about the relationship. That's where just the communication cycle of, okay, you weren't always like this. You are like this now. I'm not judging. I'm asking what's going on so that we can both understand each other because they have some ideal version of themselves. They do have something they want to move towards, but maybe they feel like that's not possible or maybe they feel stuck right now. If it's not this terminal problem that's always been the case, then it's an issue of, great, let me help you up.

Gotcha, yeah. What would you say in the research you did were the big flags, red flags, for why this person probably won't be a great relationship partner for you long term. What are those big red flags that you think that everyone should be looking out for? I mean, first and foremost is that issue of not communicating. And that includes vulnerability. If you're not vulnerable, then this is probably not going to work out.

I mean, if somebody won't tell you what they want, what they need, what's wrong, you're never going to be able to fix it. You know, it's like that communication becomes essential. You know, it doesn't have to happen all the time, everything about everything, but it's like getting to know what they want, where they're going and how that aligns with what you go. If you're not communicating, it's, it's almost inevitably going to spiral down, but that's something we can alleviate. It's like that's something people can work on to talk and open up. It's not always easy. But, you know, Gottman talked about his four, the four things that were the harbingers of divorce. You know, he talked about the issue of criticism, you know, stonewalling, defensiveness, and contempt.

And what's interesting is those are all dynamics within conversations. You can often bridge the gap. When you're vetting people, you can often bridge a gap about what we're going, what we want. But if you're behaving in this bad way, criticism, you're blaming their personality, defensiveness, you always respond to them. They raise an issue, and then you raise it escalating, escalating. Stonewalling. Somebody raises something, you just immediately shut down and contempt. You see your partner as on a lower plane than you. These were the biggest things that

predicted divorce. And it's not an issue of, you know, some huge gap or some difference. It was an issue of how you handled things. Just by handling things more respectfully and compassionately. It got so much better. It's the way you handled it. Not that you didn't align and everything, but it's how you communicated in the discomfort

is what it sounds like. You gotta stay in the pocket. You gotta deal with those difficulties. You gotta stay in it, man. Yeah. Oh, man. What's your thoughts on insecurities and jealousies in an intimate relationship? Is it good to have insecurity and be jealous?

Or is it more harmful to the relationship long term when someone is insecure and jealous? This is such a fascinating question because I wish there was a one-word simple answer. And the thing is there isn't because first and foremost, the purpose of jealousy and insecurity in a relationship is a positive one. When they took a group of people and they looked at who were dating and they measured them on levels of jealousy, then they checked back in four years later. Some of them had split them up. Some of them had stayed together.

It was the people who felt somewhat more jealous who stuck together. Come on. The purpose of jealousy seems to be to protect the relationship. Really? Now, obviously, at extreme ends, this can be pathological. But if somebody doesn't seem to care at all and doesn't seem to do anything to defend the relationship, that's not a great sign either. So we're looking at a mid-range. We're looking at a healthy amount where, hey, that sounds, this seems like a negative.

I don't want the relationship to end. I want to protect it. I choose investment. Right, right. Too much, if this person is perpetually concerned that everything is a negative, this can be someone who's dealing with more more serious issues. What about the relationships that have lasted 30, 40 years that are super happy still? Yeah.

Or are they jealous? Or is it more of like I'm investing in ways to protect the relationships, growth and fulfillment and bond without being insecure and jealous that you're going off with your girlfriends or guy friends. What are those? When you look at people who have been in happy marriages for decades, it's crazy. This is a small portion of people, but some people, when they're put in an MRI scanner, their brains look, 40 years later, look like people who are newly in love. Really? Yeah. How? And it's actually better because later, look like people who are newly in love. Really? Yeah. How?

And it's actually better. Because when you look at people who are newly in love, there's these positive emotions, brains throwing up sparks. It's healing. They call it sexual healing. It's like this feeling. It is comparable to amphetamines.

They are feeling great, but there's also the anxiety because we're always a little bit scared. What if I lose it? What if it's gone? When you look at people who are still in love decades later, it's all positives without the anxiety. How do you get to a place of all positives without stress and anxiety in an intimate relationship? I mean, part of that is the issue of ongoing communication.

Where it's like something comes up, we deal with it. is the issue of ongoing communication. Where it's like something comes up, we deal with it. When Gottman looked at what produced a great marriage, he found it was five to one, five positives for every one negative. But here was the interesting thing, because we've heard that a few times. What's fascinating is if you get down to one to one, not good, one good for every bad, that's headed for divorce. 13 to one was also bad. 13 goods for every bed was also bad because what that meant was somebody's not speaking up. Somebody is having issues, is having concerns, and they're not listening, and they're letting it build up. This is why, I mean, I don't know. I'm trying to figure out, I'm trying to self-analyze myself because

I told my partner, Martha, I was like, listen, there's nothing you can do that will make me upset at you. I said this a year ago when we first started dating. Now, I may be frustrated or confused or something like that, or like, huh, I didn't like that. Let's talk about it. But for me to get upset, it means there's something that I'm a prisoner to. I'm a prisoner to you doing something and I react to it. That means it's something I got to work on. It's something I got to process and learn to heal and move through so I'm not triggered. I may not like something, but reacting with anger is more about me than what you do. And if you do something out of integrity that may be harmful for the relationship. We get to communicate it and then make a decision on what's going to happen.

But me getting anger, angry, is about me and the things I need to work on. That's at least my perspective. And that's why I said I will do consistent coaching and therapy every two weeks to improve myself. Yeah. I will do consistent coaching and therapy every two weeks to improve myself and we'll do it together so that we can talk through these things as opposed to waiting or just neglecting it. It's like a consistent communication like you said. But the 13 to one, I feel like we're 13 to one,

it may be more because we are in consistent conversation about maybe something that's unsettling. She does a really good job of communicating and saying, listen, hey, I want to talk to you about something. You didn't do anything wrong, but I just want to be able to talk about this. And I'm like, okay, cool. I don't need to be defensive. You're not attacking me.

And let's address it. So it doesn't feel like a bad thing. It's more like a, oh, we're communicating and there's some messiness, but let's get through it. And then we come together stronger. Yeah. Well, you're bleeding off all of the difficulties. You're doing a great job of keeping the line out of the red.

I mean, it's like with that ongoing communication. And I mean, you are basically practicing CBT in yourself. You know, it's like cognitive behavioral therapy most proven most demonstrated method you know is that issue of it's you know is that basically the adversity is not what causes our emotions our beliefs are what causes our emotions and when we have unrealistic irrational beliefs this should never happen nobody should treat me like this oh then you can't control that i can't control how other people act. I can't control how the world deals with me. So that issue of when you say, hey, okay, my belief, this does happen. People do do this. These things do occur. You're having rational assumptions about the world

and your feelings are never getting out of control. Right. It's never like too crazy high or too crazy low. It's like you might have some movement, but it's like trying to have a conscious, rational thought and not take everything so personally. It never gets to the level of anger. It stays at like rational disappointment. Yeah, yeah. Or I feel uncomfortable, I don't like this feeling, but I don't need to explode on someone.

Oh yeah, you're not demanding that the universe give you what you want. You have realistic preferences. I would prefer this. Yeah. But I'm not insisting that. And so let's communicate about it, right? Yeah.

Essentially, it was sad. Something came up. I can't remember what you were just saying, but it came up to me that like, you know, one day every relationship ends in this physical world, right? It's like, and I told Martha, my girlfriend, early on my girlfriend early on ago you know isn't it sad that one day i'm going to be at your funeral or you're going to be up mine it's most likely what's going to happen yeah you know if we're together for you know a long period of time and i hope we are that's probably what's going to happen and it's sad to think about that

you're going to be at the funeral of the person you care about the most. It's really sad to think about. But it brings me back into now and how can I appreciate what we're creating together right now the most. Make the most of it. Have a great time. Let things go that don't matter that much. Communicate. Not suppress those things, but let them go or communicate through it to then align and what do we value what are our agreements so they're

on the same team yeah and I think that perspective has given me a beautiful gift of appreciation and how important is appreciation gratitude and acknowledging your partner in an intimate relationship. I mean, beyond. I mean, first and foremost, you know, one of the most, look at all the happiness research. Gratitude is like the tactic number one. Because just that issue, it's amazing because not only is that issue of you're not taking things for granted, you're appreciating them. You're realizing that the world could have been differently. But so many other things, when we focus on that money, that thing, that achievement,

it's amazing that gratitude is just a perspective shift. It doesn't cost anything. It's a simple shift. It doesn't cost anything. We just have to take the time to realize how much worse could things have been. It didn't have to go this way. And one of the things, most of this is work by Martin Seligman at the University of Pennsylvania, how much worse could things have been it didn't have to go this way and One of the things this most of this is work by Martin Seligman at University of Pennsylvania

Is that not only does gratitude help us but one of the most powerful things we can do to to make someone else Happy is what he calls a gratitude visit, which is schedule a time with somebody. Maybe it's your partner You know you schedule some time and beforehand you write up like a single single page letter and just tell them all the wonderful things that they've done for you and how much it's impacted you and how much it's changed you and how much you appreciate it. You schedule a time, you don't tell them what's going to transpire. You sit down and you read the letter to them. First off, you better have tissues because most people cry. And second off, this has been shown to increase the other person's happiness for months afterwards. How often do we feel like people aren't supporting us, don't think about us, don't appreciate us to sit down and schedule a time and make it all about them to have prepared, to have made a list.

How flattering is that and how great is that to give someone else that gift? It is one of the most powerful happiness exercises that we have for both people is exactly what you said to deliberately, consciously show gratitude that way. You know this is something that we've been doing in our relationship every night together. We share three things we're grateful for before we go to bed. Yeah. And usually a couple of them are geared towards each other, right? It's like, I'm so grateful for you for doing this, and I appreciate you for this.

And it just, man, it just creates so much harmony In these in the relationship now, I'm sure people listening or watching might be saying well That's that's easy to do in the first year, you know But wait till you everyone says wait till you have kids wait till you how you're busier wait till this I get it I'm not saying there's not new challenges or adversity to face Yeah, but I think if this is not the baseline what you're creating before more challenges come up, it's going to be harder when there's challenges, when you have less sleep, when you're overworked or overwhelmed because of distractions or because big responsibilities or health crises. I get it. And that's why I think it's so important in the beginning of a relationship to set the deep foundation with time, with vulnerability, like you said, and with these practices. I love this gratitude visit.

It's the giving the gift of gratitude to your partner, to your friends, and the connection and the bond you'll create because of that is powerful. Absolutely. I mean, I think that's an amazing practice that you guys do. And building a habit together of cleaning the bathroom is great.

Building a habit like this is even better because Shelley Gable at UCSB has done some really interesting counterintuitive research that basically shows for a lot of couples, how they celebrate is more important than how they fight. We think fighting bad that's going to destroy the relationship. fight. We think fighting bad, that's going to destroy the relationship. Yeah. But it's like, if you're just focused on bringing up to average, you know, you got to focus on the positive. You got to increase the positives. So when couples have a great time together, when they celebrate together, that's why some people occasionally stay in difficult relationships. Because even though there's bads, there's also some compensatory goods. Well, if we don't have the bad, but we add in the good. she talks about that issue it in In the formal terminology, they call it capitalization. Whereas you had a good day. Tell me about it. This was great

Let me be the cheerleader. I am so happy for you. I am so excited for you. Let's celebrate it Yeah that every day if couples get together How did your day go and it's kind of like that capitalizing on those positives? You're doing a version of that. We're kind of like that capitalizing on those positives. You're doing a version of that where it's kind of what went well today, here's the things I'm grateful for. When you capitalize on that, when you become the supporter,

you're in their corner, I am involved, I know what's going on, I'm supportive of the positive, I'm enthusiastic, I mean, that's what we all want. That's really cool, yeah. And what about the world of social media right now? Is social media in general good for a relationship or more challenging for a relationship when people are on and involved in social media in different ways? This is one of those areas that's mixed because we hear so many negatives and it's you know it can be good it can be bad what it comes down to is we still need face-to-face contact when you look at

cancer support groups there are some cancer support groups that are face-to-face there are some that are virtual when you look at the virtual groups there's a doubleit percentage often of these people in cancer support groups who are feeling clinically depressed. When you look at the face-to-face groups, the level of clinical depression is often zero. They're less depressed. They might be sad from like sickness. But not, but it's not debilitating. Yeah. They have some hope. They have more connection. They have community. Yeah. Interesting. We need an element of face-to-face and that issue of social media. Hey, if somebody's a close friend,

they live 3000 miles away, maybe the DM is the easiest way for you to coordinate. Sure. But the question to be asking is, am I using social media in order to orchestrate and facilitate face to face deep connections? Or am I using it to replace them, to cannibalize them? That's really the critical thing. If you use any form of social media to organize a face-to-face get-together, it's a positive, no doubt. If they're 3,000 miles away, hey, this is what we got until the next time we can connect face-to-face. But when it starts cannibalizing it, when it's too difficult, I don't want to get off the couch, I don't, when it becomes a replacement, that's where it can become really difficult. That's where it can become problematic. We want to make sure that we're leveraging it in order to get to

face-to-face, to get to those deeper connections, because there's a lot of things we're going to say face-to-face, we're going to explore face-to-face that we're never going to do via text. And what about when it's an intimate relationship and people are using social media, what are the the do's and don'ts of using social media to either bond the intimate relationship more or that cause stress in an intimate relationship? There, the critical aspect in terms of an imminent relationship is don't keep secrets. Right. Because there's one book that was written by a former divorce lawyer and he talked about how much, how many of his cases were started by Facebook. Don't be communicating or communicating

in a way that you would not feel comfortable sharing with your partner. Right. Don't keep secrets. You can communicate with an ex with your partner. Don't keep secrets. You can communicate with an ex. If your partner knows about that, is cool with it, if you would feel comfortable showing them the messages, there's not a problem. Once you're keeping secrets and saying things you shouldn't be saying, and if you're concerned that they might see those messages, then you might want to think twice. Yeah. Don't engage. Exactly. That's smart. Or keep it like prayer hands, you know, just like a simple response. One emoji, no more. That's it, just like thumbs up, you know, just more of a neutral communication. I love this. I want to go back to kind of the beginning and bring it full circle you mentioned about how the relationships

that are happy they don't maybe have traditional roles from society that they live up to but they create their own roles is what i think i heard you say how important is it with masculine and feminine energy, to have a certain type of role and responsibility, is it okay for one party to be doing a lot more of the heavy lifting in a relationship and the other one less? Is it better for both parties to say, okay, here's my share of the effort and energy that I'm going to work on for logistics and house and money and food and all these other things, kids, and the other one have their kind of responsibilities and roles, how does it really work?

Because it seems like now people can do anything they want, they can say anything they want, they can change anything they want at any moment. Is that too confusing for a relationship without the stability of roles and responsibilities that are both agreed upon? Yeah. This is why it's so hard.

Yeah. This is why it's so hard. But the thing is, again, it comes down to the assumptions. You know, if there aren't clear defaults, if you're not taking standard rules, the first thing to remember is that as long as everybody is honest and forthright, then fairness is not an issue as long as everybody's honest and forthright. If somebody wants to do more of this, they enjoy it. That's fine. If they don't feel like, hey, we need to be sharing this, and they're straightforward about it,

need to talk, need to have a conversation because it's not that issue. There is no default fairness. There's how much do you feel comfortable with? What value do they bring? What do you need? Because once we get so tied up into fair, we all have irrational wants. We all have things that contradict each other,

but we can't resolve that until we talk about it because some things that feel so big to you can feel small to your partner and vice versa. There are some things you'd be happy to do. It's no big deal. But they think it's a big lift. They think it's a big ask. It's really putting it out there. Because once you do something more akin to what you did, where it's like you said, we're going to go to therapy, we're going to talk about all these things, I don't think there was probably a lot left. Things are going to change. Software updates. Sure, sure, sure.

But it's like once you put it out there, it's like, okay, I understand. This is mine. That's yours. These might change. Yes. But I think a lot of people are afraid that's going to cause conflict, so they don't want to talk about it, so they nod their head, and that compounds. And that's not good. That's not good.

But if you want the happiest relationships that we have today, it is an issue of just getting it all out there and making it clear, even if it's scary and ugly. Isn't that true? Yeah, getting it all out, not hiding anything until after you're married and then saying, okay, well, here's what I really want. Then you're like, oh man. Well, yeah. Then you're going to be focused on changing the other person and that's not going to be good. This is powerful stuff, man. Play well with others. The surprising science behind why everything you know about relationships is mostly wrong. I'm curious. I want people to get the book. I want them to follow you.

You have an amazing newsletter as well. What's the main place we can go to for the newsletter and you personally on social media? Yeah, my URL on my blog is a little tricky. So people go to ericbarker.org, E-R-I-C-B-A-R-K-E-R.org. That'll take them to the site, right? That'll take them to my website. And yeah, my newsletter comes out weekly.

I'm always looking at the latest research on how we can be better. That's amazing. What would you say are the biggest, I don't know if Gottman or someone else said this, besides the four horsemen, what are the biggest topics that cause the most stress that potentially end a relationship or a marriage? The topic of money, the topic of how to raise kids, religion,

families, like how families are involved in the relationship, and I guess sex, which of those are, you know, cause more conflict and divorce than the rest of them? Would you say? Are they all kind of equal? Finances is usually number one. Why do you think money is such a big problem in relationships? I mean, first and foremost, it's because it's that quantification of values where it's just like you're seeing. First off, I mean, obviously people need money in order to live.

So that seems like a big threat. The other things can be worked out, you know, but when you see that your partner ideas on what is important and money is a measure of what's important are completely misaligned with yours it can create an enormous amount of stress yeah you know you really see that it can feel like somebody doesn't respect if you're if you're the breadwinner it feels like somebody doesn't respect your efforts or if you're not the breadwinner it can feel like somebody else is not doing their share to to keep this safe and stable So for both sides, that issue of money can be really challenging because it is an existential threat to not only the relationship but your life. To livelihood, to staying alive.

I'm so excited about this. I want people to get the book. A lot of good science and research in here about how to shift your thinking around relationships, not only intimate relationships, but friends, family, colleagues as well in business. So make sure you guys pick up a copy of the book. Check out your newsletter as well. Couple final questions. This is called The Three Truths.

I'm not sure if I asked you this last time. Hypothetical scenario. Imagine it's your last day on Earth many years away. You live as long as you want to live. You accomplish everything that you want to do. You live a happy life. But for whatever reason, you've got to take all of your work with you to the next place. So no one has access to this book, this podcast, or anything you've ever written or create in the future. But you get to leave behind three lessons to the world, Three things you know to be true

from all experiences in life. What would be those three truths for you to leave behind? Do more, not less. You don't want to regret things. Number two is show gratitude. It's the most powerful way to feel happy. And number three, nine times out of ten you won't go wrong with compassion. That's beautiful, man. That's probably what it is. Before I ask the final question, Eric, I want to acknowledge you and express gratitude for the way you continually dive into research to find solutions for us. You're obsessive about how to improve our lives.

And this book on relationships is really powerful because people are suffering and struggling a lot in their relationships right now. It's confusing, like you said. There's a lot of dynamics and just understanding people and understanding yourself. So I really acknowledge you for spending years on this research, packaging it in a way so that we can understand it and start applying this in our own lives. It's really powerful, man. Thank you. You're welcome. And my final question, what's your definition of greatness?

My definition of greatness? A feeling of meaning in collaboration with others. Like when I feel my life is not happy in the moment, but I feel like I'm doing something meaningful and it's creating a feeling of belonging. That's one of the things I not happy in the moment, but I feel like I'm doing something meaningful and it's creating a feeling of belonging. That's one of the things I talk about in the book is that issue that what most creates a feeling of meaning is a feeling of belonging.

When I feel meaning in life and it has to do with connecting to others, like in the end, you're not gonna do better than that. Yeah, there you go. Eric, thanks brother. Appreciate it, man. Thanks, man. Thank you so much for listening.

I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's show with all the important links. And also make sure to share this with a friend and subscribe over on Apple podcasts as well. I really love hearing feedback from you guys. So share a review over on Apple and let me

know what part of this episode resonated with you the most. And if no one's told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.