The School of Greatness - Transform Your Anxiety Into Your Greatest Strength | Dr. Wendy Suzuki

Episode Date: March 13, 2026

Dr. Wendy Suzuki reveals that 90% of people suffer from anxiety, but most are approaching it completely wrong. Instead of fighting or suppressing anxious feelings, she explains how anxiety is actually a protective mechanism that can be harnessed as fuel for action, courage, and personal transformation. Through her own journey of loss, she discovered that our greatest pain often leads to our deepest wisdom. From the neuroscience of love and social connection to practical tools like joy conditioning and micro flow, this episode offers a roadmap for turning your most uncomfortable emotions into superpowers. You'll learn how anxiety can build empathy, resilience, and flow states when you shift your relationship with it. This isn't about eliminating anxiety but about using its energy to propel you toward the life you want. Dr. Suzuki’s books: Healthy Brain, Happy Life Good Anxiety In this episode you will: Learn the exact breathing technique and morning rituals that rewire your brain for peace and decrease chronic stress Discover how to transform everyday anxiety into actionable energy that drives you forward instead of holding you back Understand why social connection is the number one predictor of longevity and how to build meaningful relationships that heal anxiety Master the concept of joy conditioning to create positive neural pathways that counteract fear and worry Recognize the six superpowers hidden within your anxiety including resilience, empathy, and the ability to access flow states For more information go to https://lewishowes.com/1901 For more Greatness text PODCAST to [phone] Follow The Daily Motivation for essential highlights from The School of Greatness More SOG episodes we think you’ll love: Lewis Howes [SOLO] Dr. Caroline Leaf Dr. Daniel Amen Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy!Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

90% of the population identifies as suffering from anxiety. Okay, so 90% are affected by anxiety. Is it possible for us to change the way we think about anxiety and start to heal our brain, heal our mindset around the topic of anxiety so that it doesn't affect us or consume us in our life? Is that possible? Absolutely, it is possible. And I think the first step is to realize that anxiety

and our stress response, which is causing me, all those negative feelings. Evolutionarily, that is a protective mechanism. It is necessary for our survival. It was and it is necessary. So it was evolved so that if there is a line coming at us or a dangerous situation that you're in, that you automatically have that increased heart rate, that increased respiration, all the blood goes to your muscle so you can run away. Our problem is that in this day and time, there's not a lot of lines coming. at us, but there's all the worry that we see every single day when we look in the newspaper and look at our Instagram feeds.

And that worry of a possible terrible thing that might happen that also activates our stress and anxiety systems. So, but it is there for protection. How do we harness that and bring it back into submission so it can help us in the way that it was developed or evolved to help us, such as to put us into action? I want to use that energy to go into action to try and check off all those things. I have this, I don't know when your anxiety hits you, but it always hits me right before I'm going to go to sleep.

It's like, oh, I'm not there, and then bing, you know, what if this happens tomorrow? Did I do that? What if that happens? What if that happens? And so that action, the way I use it, is I say, that's okay. that is going to be my to-do list for tomorrow. I'm going to take action. And knowing that I can and will take action

helps me go back to sleep. Because it still happens. It used to be extremely difficult for me to sleep until I hit about 31 years old. And I would sit in bed for probably an hour to an hour and a half almost every night. Anxious, worrying, thinking, judging myself, whatever it may be, stressing about,

something I haven't done yet, or really just kind of beating myself up. emotionally and what I've learned there's two things that I've learned what were the three things that I've learned that have helped me go to sleep extremely fast in the last eight years okay that has been like an automatic switch for me one is going through a transition of fully sharing and starting to heal the process of my shame from the past so taught like finding a therapist and talking about what I'm shameful about you know and really revealing the parts of my

that I never wanted anyone to know about me. Yeah. There were so many things that I didn't like about myself that I was ashamed of or felt insecure around. And it made me feel like a prisoner to my own thoughts. Because I felt like I was, in a sense, hiding myself to the world and to the people closest to me.

Like certain people didn't even know who I was. So I felt like an impostor at times. I was still a loving, fun, generous human, but I felt like there was a few things that people didn't know about me. And when I started to open up about those things, things, I felt inner peace. It didn't all go away, but I felt like, you know, a lot more peace. Number two was I started to focus on everything at night what I was grateful for from the day.

I was like, okay, if there was anything good today, what was it? Even if it was all bad. There had to be something. I'm alive. You know, I'm healthy or whatever may be. I have a roof. So it's just focusing on anything. And I do that every night where I think it's about three things to be grateful for. That brings me like another level of peace. And then I think about what am I going to do tomorrow to help people. How am I going to serve? That's beautiful. Yeah. So it's like, you know, healing the shame, focusing on gratitude, and thinking about how am I going to serve? Not just what do I need for me, but how can I show up for other people? That kind of three-part combination gives me so much peace before I go to bed.

Oh, that's so beautiful. And it's a practice. You know, it's like a constant practice. It's not always perfect, but it's a practice. Yeah. I love the thinking about something you're going to do for somebody else tomorrow coming from this practice of healing your own shame. One of the superpowers in good anxiety that comes from your own anxiety. This is a beautiful example that you just told me, is the superpower of empathy. For yourself or others? First, for yourself and recognizing it in yourself and then giving it out to others. Because just as you described your journey, a lot of our own anxieties have been with us since we were little. Same anxiety over or they stay for decades.

For your lifetime sometimes. What was yours? So I have many, but the one that I talk about here is shyness and kind of social anxiety. And I've learned because I'm a teacher and because I want to become an author, I've learned the skills not to have those kinds of anxieties. But I was painfully shy as a young girl. And even into college, I found myself in social situations and wanting to join and not not, you know, feeling comfortable or even in class.

And so I realized that that has become my superpower as a teacher because I know when I'm standing at the front of the classroom. Shinesis is a superpower. My shinness. Why is that? Because when I'm standing at the front of the classroom, there are always those students, they say, oh, I know the answer, I know the answer. And I know that there's many more that want to talk to me, that want to show me what they

know, want to have that interaction, but can't do that. And so what do I do? I make sure that I am there 15 minutes before. I stand there. I talk to the students before. I stay after class. Anybody that wants to come up for a casual conversation where you don't have to be the one raising your hand.

And I didn't even realize it until I wrote this book, that that is a superpower of in-class empathy. And I have that particular form of empathy because of my particular form of anxiety. My social anxiety. And so imagine the 90% of people that have their particular form of anxiety. They know what it feels like. They know what's going through many others of our minds.

And what if you turn that around and you do what you do and say, how can I help somebody else in this way that I know I've struggled, but I also know what can help. Sure, sure. Okay. So that's one of my favorite superpowers. How do we know how to turn anxiety into something good? Like, if 90% of the, is this the U.S. or the world feels anxiety?

I think the actual study was about the U.S. 90% of the U.S. has claimed that they have anxiety on some level, right? Yes, exactly. And what does anxiety do for us when we don't have attacks coming our way? Like, if we're constantly in a state of anxiety, what does it do to the brain and what does it do to our immune system and to our body and our motions? Yeah. So that's a great question.

The answer is long-term anxiety. will have terrible effects on all of the physiological systems that are being activated. So what's happening when you have a stress response? Your heart rate is going up. Your respiration is going up. So long-term effects of anxiety and stress are heart disease. Really? The other thing that's happening when you're in a constant state of stress is that blood

is being shunted from your digestive and reproductive systems to your muscles because you're supposed to be running away from the lion and you're sitting there worrying about your taxes instead or whatever, a delta variant instead. And so long-term effects, ulcers, reproductive problems, long-term reproductive problems with long-term anxiety. And that's just the body. So now we get to my favorite body area, the brain.

And so long-term stress will literally start to first kill off the dendrites of your neurons, the input structures of your brain cells in two key brain areas. The hippocampus, critical for long-term memory, in the temporal lobe, and the prefrontal cortex, critical for decision-making, focus, and attention. And so, for example, PTSD, if you have PTSD, classic example of long-term stress,

your whole temporal lobe gets smaller. Why? Because you first start to degrade the size of your individual brain cells, and then you start to kill them off. And so that is not memory problems ensue. So it is not good. Is long term also the same as chronic? Yes.

So long term stress, long term anxiety is chronic, anxiety and stress. Exactly. What's the definition of chronic? Is that just mean something that's consistent over a period of time? Over months, over months and years. And of course there's different levels of intensity. Also, I should say that, this book Good Anxiety is not addressing clinical anxiety. That is a different animal. For clinical

anxiety, just as you would do if you had a broken leg, you need medical treatment. This is not a medical treatment for somebody that has chronic anxiety. This is the 90% of people that say, yeah, I have some anxiety every day. I call it everyday anxiety. So these are some of the approaches and mindsets that you can use to start to shift that negative effect of anxiety and shift it in to the basic brain activation that it is and start to help motivate yourself to address the things that you're afraid of. What are the common things that most people have on a daily anxiety basis, I guess? What is it?

Fear of what? You know, generally, and this is before the pandemic. Yes. Fear of public speaking is one of the most common. Fear of money fears, another big one. I'm just thinking about all my own anxieties that I talked about in the book. Let's see. Early on, social anxiety is, you know, they mirror the clinical levels of anxiety.

One is general anxiety disorder is just kind of life and situations and interacting with anything. come to my, start to produce anxiety. Social anxiety, obsessive-pulsive disorders, one can start to worry obsessively about whatever that thing is that that worries you. And of course, the thing that is on everybody's mind right now is the uncertainty around the coronavirus and everything that's happened in the future. We can't predict. We don't know what's going to happen in the fall with squirrel.

or work for that matter. And that uncertainty is the key driver for a lot of anxiety. So uncertainty in general is uncertainty about my money, uncertainty if I go to this social event, am I going to fit in? It's just kind of the uncertainty of life. Yes. Around different topics.

It's an uncertainty about my parents. Are they going to stay healthy? It's just the uncertainty of life. So that sounds like it's one of the main causes of daily, everyday anxiety. Absolutely. How do we get comfortable with uncertainty so it doesn't consume us? Yeah, that's a great question. How do we embrace it and enjoy uncertainty and have fun and play and connect with it in a different

relationship? Yeah, yeah. So that is a great question and the answer that I provide in the book is a multi-spoked kind of strategy. One strategy that's easy to understand is how do you create more joy in your life to kind of counteract all of these negative things coming coming out. And so one of my favorite, this is in the toolbox part of the book where I go through immediate, medium term and long term tools that you can use to flip your anxiety from

bad to good. And one of my favorite ones is called joy conditioning. Joy conditioning is mining your. your own memory banks for those joyous, funny, pick your favorite positive emotion events in your life and consciously bringing them back up and revivifying them and bringing up those emotions. And my little trick for that is try and find a memory that you love that has an olfactory component to it. A what component? Alphactory. A particular smell associated with it. Why? Because smells are really evocative of memories. It's very easy to bring up

everything associated with that memory if it has a smell. It's okay if it doesn't. But the one that I use is, I love this one because everybody might have an example of this. I remember a particular yoga class I went to in New York City and I was doing so well. I was, you know, up dog, down dog. I flipped my dog. It's like, yeah, I did really well. And then, I was doing my, the, the pose that I do the best, which is shavasana. So I was in shavasna. Is that the one where you just lay down? Yeah.

Yeah, I do that really well. You just lay in your back or you're like child's pose? Exactly. I do that even better than child's pose. It's like I just lay on my back, shavasana. And I was feeling really good about myself, had this great class. And then on top of all of that, the teacher came around and she put some lavender lotion on her hand and she waved it under my nose.

and she gave me the most luscious five-second neck massage that have ever had in my life. Because, you know, I worked out hard as feeling really good about myself. And so I literally, in my purse out there is a little vial of lavender essence. And when I need a little pick-me-up of, remember the time I just felt so good. It was just this relaxing, feel-good moment. I smell that lavender. And that memory, that is my joy conditioning. I'm joy conditioning myself with that memory.

But you can do that with whatever memory you want. Joy conditioning. Joy conditioning. Is that a scientific term? That is Wendy, Dr. Professor Wendy Suzuki's term, and it's based on my 25 years of studying how memory works. I love it. And applying all of my knowledge to addressing anxiety.

And it's really a direct antidote to fear conditioning, which we all experience automatic. So that's, my example is my apartment in Washington, D.C. was robbed. And I walked around the corner. My door was the only one around the corner. And I still remember walking around the corner and seeing my door crowbarred open, hanging open when it was supposed to be locked. It's like, what's happened?

And I walked in, which was not the smartest thing. Nobody was there. But every time I walked around that corner for months and months, I felt that. I felt that. That is your conditioning. How do you flip it? So that didn't go away. You had to move. Yeah, I did have to move.

It went down slowly. But I, you know, to counteract that with something like joy conditioning is, you know, invite friends over, create wonderful memories, wonderful safe events in that same space. It never went away. And I'll tell you why, because that is a safety mechanism. you don't want to, you know, the brain doesn't allow us to obliterate anything. This isn't like that movie, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, yes. So we can't do that, but we can counteract that very protective mechanism. Actually, I don't want to eliminate that.

I want to be wary of areas and situations that were really, really bad for me. That is. You don't want to eliminate it. I don't want to eliminate it. What if it's been something traumatic, though, or someone breaking in or a sexual assault against you or something traumatic? How do we learn to heal the memory and the emotion of that fear, of that trauma? Yeah. To live with ourselves or to live in the environment of a home that we can't leave yet.

Or how do we... Yeah. Is it just more joy conditioning? Are there other things? Yeah. So this is where we get to that boundary between clinical levels. and what this addresses. So I'm really not addressing, you know, I went to Afghanistan.

I have, you know, terrible PTSD. That's not that. This can help a little bit, but it does not substitute for you need to go to a medical profession, a therapist. And so, yeah, that is not a substitute. However, you can use these in addition to your, you know, therapy approaches. Any tool, I think, is a good tool to try. Yes, exactly.

It was a good tool to try. What's another tool we can use in order to quiet some of the negative anxiety that keeps us from joy, that keeps us from feeling good about ourselves? What's another tool you like? Yeah. I mean, we already said this, but I think this is one that so many people can use. And it was really inspired by a really good lawyer that I happened to meet at a party one day, and I told her, I'm running this book about anxiety.

And she said, I am the lawyer that I am today because of her. my anxiety and I said oh tell me about that and she said you know I use my anxiety for all the different arguments that the other side is going to put up against me or all the things the judge might say that becomes my to-do list like what if the judge says that what if the other side brings this up that that up and I turn that into actionable items and so because I do that on a systematic basis and I've gotten really good at that I I plug all the holes in my case. And I think you could apply that to anything, anything in your life.

And I love it because it is an act of turning the energy of just worrying, oh, what if this, what if this, into an action. That is really at the core of this book. Can you turn that inner turmoil into an action that is positive? And this is one example that's easy to understand. how I do that. Even if you get to the top three things on your list and do something about that, there is a satisfaction that comes from that. And you can feel that anxiety coming down with every checkmark that you do. If people don't turn their anxiety into a positive action, what happens? If they stay in it, consistently what happens? Well, then we go back to what are the

chronic effects of anxiety. They get sick. Heart disease. long-term stress. Yeah, right. And they stay in this, in this negative emotional state. They stay in the state of pure worry, no action. And that is, that is difficult to maintain. And it starts to interfere. It's exhausting.

It's exhausting. It's got to be emotionally draining to be in a constant state of stress, anxiety, and worry. Yes, it is. It's got to make you look older, feel tired. I mean, I'm not sure what the research says about longevity if someone has a lot of stress and worry anxiety, but I'm assuming you don't live long. Yeah, yeah.

You probably die younger than you should. Yes. Have you studied anything about the blue zones, about the people that live in the blue zones who live the longest in the world about how they manage anxiety or if they have anxiety? And is there some benefit to having some anxiety or is it better to just have this kind of worry-free life?

Yeah. happy go lucky. I'm not going to let anything bother me. I forgive everyone. It doesn't matter what you do. I'm just a happy human being. Is there some benefit to that or no? Yeah. So I think that I think about anxiety now and all that worry and anger and all these other things that come with anxiety. I really think of it as kind of the wind in my sails. That is the little fire under my backside that gets me to do things, gets me excited, gets me to go towards the fear and get through it because I know there's something good on the other side. And without it, I mean, that is, I think there's certain perhaps times in your life.

If you are retired and aren't in this situation where you're dealing with the world, that that could be great. That is the happy go lucky, no worries. But for most of us, I think it is very beneficial to learn how to take that fear that is depleting us. It is exhausting us, making us look older, and turn that into something that makes you feel better about yourself. It decreases the overall stress in your life. And frankly, it is more practical to say, look, I'm not going to be happy-go-lucky all the time. nobody's happy go lucky all the time. But I'm going to use that bad stuff that is inevitably going to come in.

And I am going to learn from it. I'm going to use it to my best advantage. And one thing we haven't talked about yet, I'm going to learn about myself through thinking about my anxiety, rather than just trying to say, oh, I hate it, go away. What does it tell us about ourselves? Like for me, my social anxiety told me how much I love and I appreciate deep friendships. Because I didn't have them because I was too scared to disturb them.

You're so shy. I was so shy. And it kept me isolated. And there's something wrong about that. I mean, that contributed to the isolation in the first place. And so the realization, and because part of the time it's like, I'm alone wolf. I like being alone. You know, it's okay.

But actually the truth was, I love being with people. It motivates me. So I had to get through that shyness to get that joy on the other side. And so that was a learning that I went through. When someone says they like being a lone wolf, what is it? I mean, no one likes to be alone, really. I mean, we like to be alone at moments, but no one's to be alone and not have close friendships, right? Yeah.

Yeah. What is that really, what are we really saying when we say, you know what, I just want to be alone or I want to be a lone wolf, is that we don't, we've been embarrassed in the past by social settings or people made fun of us. Or what does that mean kind of in general, do you think? You know, I think. I don't trust people. Yeah. I'm, I'm, it's difficult to deal with, you know, reading the cues and it's just confusing or overwhelming. you know, a criticism of, you know, the monk lifestyle.

They're alone all the time. They don't have to deal with, you know, what if I don't like? The other monk, you know. I'll just go off to my cave and I'll be all alone and then you don't have to deal with it. The real test comes when you do have to deal with that and disagreements. What if somebody doesn't disagree with, somebody disagrees with you? That brings up all of these things that humans were evolved to do. We're social animals.

And I think that, you know, there are social butterflies. I was never a social butterfly. I will never be a social butterfly. But it is not true what I told myself that, you know, I just love to be alone. And I, you know, I'm better on my own. No, I'm much better with people. So I think there's, it is that difficulty, social interactions. We were evolved to be social, but it is scary.

And some of us have that fear. And so. I think it can be terrifying if you don't know how to handle the emotions of it. If you haven't learned the tools on how to navigate when someone lets you down or when someone talks behind your back or when someone lies to you or when someone breaks their commitment or whatever it is, it's like it's hard. learn these things. It is. And we could wall ourselves up. We can protect ourselves, but I think that creates more stress and anxiety. It's like feeling alone and feeling disconnected to people,

I think is even harder. But it seems safer in the moment. It does. It does. And I do believe that you get what you give. And so, you know, put out there, I could tell by your evening ritual that you like to put out there, what can I give to other people? And the more you do that, it's not to say that nobody will ever turn around and try and, you know, go behind your back about something. They do, yeah. But you are building so much goodwill in the people that do appreciate it. It is like this like protective cocoon. So the more you do go out there and give to people, the more protected, and that is going back to vulnerability, the more vulnerable you are and say, you know, I want, I like you,

I want to help you. Here's what I can do. This would make me feel good. That's a very vulnerable thing to do and to offer. And I think that that, but that pays, even though sometimes it's hard and it's scary to reach out. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, Adam Grant talks about that in his book, I think, give and take, I think it's called, what's like there's givers and takers and you want to,

you want to learn not to just constantly give to the takers, but make sure there's give and take and relationships and stuff like that. I love you said that the worry you feel should get you, should help you move towards your fear. So if you're worried about being in social settings, you should think about it and say, okay, what can I do to help me overcome this? Yeah, exactly. I really like to create exercises and kind of games when I'm afraid. Yeah. And I say, okay, I used to be when I was a teenager, I was afraid to talk to girls. I think like most teenage boys, I don't know, maybe I was the only one, but I was afraid to talk to girls. And I remember I was, I told this on my show many times, but I was sick and tired of having so much anxiety getting rejected by just saying hello at 16.

And I said, okay, for this summer, I am going to, every time I feel butterflies, when I see a girl, I'm going to go right up to her and have a conversation. And I need to go up to her. I can't walk away. I have to put myself through this. Yeah. And the first couple weeks was horrible. It was terrifying because I got rejected. I was stuttering.

I was stumbling over myself. I was like, the girls were running away, like the whole thing. But then eventually you gain more and more confidence. You get a little win. Okay, she talked to me for 10 seconds. So you build your confidence. And I think if you create a game or an experiment for yourself and say, you know, I'm just going to do a social experiment around this.

I did this with public speaking as well. For a year, I went every week. And it was terrifying. terrifying. I went to a public speaking class. I was like, I'm going to do this as an experiment and see what I can prove every week. I think if you do that, it becomes more, we go back to joy. How do you create joy around the anxiety? How can you make it a fun game?

Not something that's like this terrible, fearful thing, but how can I make a game out of this? Yeah, yeah. For me, that has worked wonders by creating experiments, games. Yes. And trying to throw some joy in there, even when it's so stressful. Yeah, yeah. No, I love that idea. I love that idea. And bringing friends in to help you. Absolutely. Because you were saying that you shared these parts of yourselves, presumably with close friends. And I had that same thing. You know, I wanted to project. I was that 10% that's, I'm not anxious.

Really? I am happy all the time. You know, I smile at your face, yeah. And the truth was that I wasn't. And it was fear of, well, if they saw the real me, then they would never want to. And I'd be with fewer friends that I have right now, and that's terrible. But you have to learn how to share your authentic self or else you get in authentic friends. That's true.

I learned. Gosh, why is it? You said that, we both said this. You know, if people actually knew this about me, then they wouldn't love me. They wouldn't like me. Or I'd be alone. Or they wouldn't want to spend time with me.

Is that something you think is a fear for a lot of people? if people actually knew this about me. Yeah. What I was most afraid of. What I'm most ashamed of. Yeah. What I'm most insecure about it. They actually knew this is how I felt.

Yeah. They wouldn't love me. Do you think that's a common theme in the world? I think every single person, I think that same 90% that are suffering from anxiety has that about something in their life. Because it's hard to share even the most, I'm sure Oprah even, things that, you know, although she's obviously shared. shared a lot.

Very difficult to do. And yeah, I'm sure everybody has something like that. And I have this vision that people are just searching for the right configuration of friends where they feel comfortable, or family members, where they do feel comfortable enough to let that guard down and, you know, let it slip out. It's like, you know, what's happening? if that really comes out. And it's a yearning that gets suppressed, I think, too much.

It's funny when I started to reveal the things I didn't like about myself, or I wasn't proud about myself about eight years ago and started to really incorporate that on a more consistent basis in my life. And I have this platform where I'm always talking about my insecurities and doubts. So my audience knows all my darkness. It gives me, it's funny, the more I started, before I did it, I had so much anxiety and worry and stress thinking about sharing things.

Yeah, yeah. Two close friends, family members, and then eventually I started opening it more on my podcast here. But since I've done that, it's like the worry and stress goes away. Because I'm like, oh, I'm still alive. Yeah. People like me. Yeah, I have friendships.

You know, my family didn't abandon me. Yeah. Yeah. And in fact, it brought me closer to people. Yeah. It strengthened the bonds and connections with my friends, family. It created new relationships I didn't have because people trusted me more. They could see me better.

Yeah. They could understand and empathize with me. They could, you know, they just felt like I was more real, whatever it might be. Yeah. And I think that also allows me to sleep better at night. Okay, I am being 100% authentic to what I am. Yeah. revealing myself opening up, being vulnerable in conversations.

Yeah. It feels great. You know, I feel like, and people still like, I have great friendships. Yeah, yeah. So what do I need to worry about? Yeah. People know all my stuff that I don't like about me. Yeah.

And they still like me. You know, it's like, they're my friend. You know, and the people that don't like me, okay, they weren't meant for me. Yeah, exactly. It feels more peace. Yeah. It's, I don't know. It's, I know exactly what you're feeling.

What you're saying, it really opens. up this new kind of communication route when you are vulnerable and honest. And it gives permission to the other person to be vulnerable, honest, or just be there to listen, because that's also very, very powerful. One of the experiments that I did in my lab this last year was trying to find the most the easiest, shortest intervention that we can do with students that would decrease their very high levels of anxiety. What was that?

And so we tested many things just to walk outside, chair yoga, all these things they can do online. This was all virtual. But one of the things that was very effective that I was so excited about is a mindful conversation. So what we did is we didn't go deep, we didn't want to have them reveal some deep dark secret. But what we did is my student researchers had a script.

They shared a real story about a favorite vacation, why it was favorite. It was real. They were really trying to share this experience with them and then invited the student, who they didn't know, who was our experimente, to share the same thing. And in that year where everything was virtual and it was, you know, professors just said, okay, now learn this five chapters. go ahead, they do it. And to have somebody there listening to their story,

listening deeply, and asking real questions because they were, it was only 10 minutes, completely decreased their anxiety. Really? By them sharing and someone listening or by them also listening to someone else's story? You know, I think it was really the sharing and have somebody else listening

because the first part, my students always went first. They didn't know what exactly was going to happen. So that was just to lay the groundwork. And I think the interaction and the good feelings started to develop when they started to open up sharing this story and seeing, oh my God, somebody is really listening to me. They're asking me a question about this event that meant something to them. And that just shows how powerful social interactions are.

And even this short 10-minute thing between, we thought about should we get two friends to try and have a conversation that was too hard to control. But I could control, we could control exactly the protocol of this stranger student and the kind of interaction they have. Interesting. Yeah. Is there any research on if men or women are more anxious?

Has there any research around this? Like, if men have more anxiety of stress or women have more anxiety of stress? I think the stat, I should know this. Are we all, or we just all messed up equally? I think we're all messed up equally. There's more women with depression. Depression and anxiety are related, but, you know, have different symptoms. But I think it's pretty equal for anxiety.

The reason I'm curious is because when I was studying about masculinity, years ago, I wrote a book called The Mask of Masculinity, which is kind of the mask that men wear to project. and protect themselves from showing emotion and showing, revealing themselves. And when I was on tour talking about it, I would always ask in every city, and about 50% men and women would show up. And I would always ask like, okay, for the ladies here, raise your hand if you have a girlfriend or girlfriends that you talk to once a week about your stress, your worry, your

challenges in life, your work issues, your, your, your, your, your, body issues, whatever it might be dealing with that you have someone, one or multiple girlfriends you speak with on a weekly basis. And pretty much the entire room of women raised their hand and said, yes, every week I have at least one person. And I say, keep your hands up if you do this every day. You call a girlfriend on the phone, you have lunch, you're just talking about something for a few minutes.

And I go, how does it make you feel to be able to talk about these things? It feels great to be able to share this. And say, okay, from the men in the room, raise your hand if once a month you get together with a guy friend and you talk about your vulnerabilities, your insecurities, your body issues, your challenges at work, and you really open up to this other male friend. Maybe one or two guys and out of hundreds would raise their hand. And I would say you guys are part of a church group, right, where you meet once a month and you start for an hour and you do these things. Yes. And I say, okay, I go back to the ladies in the room. I say, ladies, imagine not be able to do this once a month.

doing this once a month how would it make you feel they're like I feel more anxiety more stress and I go imagine these men who never do this in the room they never share these things yeah I'm not saying all men but a lot of men don't feel like they have one guy friend they can open up and reveal to yeah and I feel like maybe there's another symptom maybe it's just like they just wall themselves up and don't share emotion and there's other internal factors or physical ailments that they're caused from that stress yeah but I think it's yeah Either way, I think it's important for everyone to learn how to share these things.

And based on that study you did, I think it's when we share, whatever it is, even if it's five, 10 minutes, it decreases the stress and the anxiety, it seems like it goes down. Yeah. And I feel like we've got to create better friendships or relationships or therapists or whatever that we can connect to and have that consistent communication stream. Yeah. Because otherwise, when we try, when we hold on to it, just bad things. happen. Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. So what how does that work? What is the what is the

change that we need in raising boys and talking to boys? This is a whole I mean this is a dynamic I mean I grew up in the 80s and 90s I was born in 83 and it was just not accepted to show emotion in elementary school, middle school, high school. It wasn't acceptable especially as an athlete growing up in Ohio. It just wasn't maybe in some, you know, part of Beverly Hills, you know, or some like posh school in New York City, I don't know, maybe in pockets there's some more acceptability of younger boys showing this type of emotion. I don't know what it's like in 2021, but I just know that you were laughed at, you were made fun of if you cried, if you showed emotion. And so you learn

in order to fit in to wall yourself or to not share the things that people won't like. about you and I'm not saying that's okay and I'm and we all have our responsibilities yeah but as young boys growing up when we're conditioned that way it was hard to break that for me personally yeah and it took me a long time until I realized like wow this isn't working for me yeah I've heard I have more stress and anxiety it was really decades of stress and anxiety and not be on asleep at night that's that was the the thing that the catalyst that you talked about that was like enough is enough is enough Yeah.

Maybe for you as a social anxiety, but finally as a teacher like, okay, I've got to show up differently to not stress all the time. And so eight plus years ago, I finally started to reveal myself. I was just like, okay, I can't live like this anymore. So everyone can know everything about all my shame because I'd rather that happen and be alone because I feel so much stress all the time. And then it gave me a lot of peace. And then I learned the process of healing and therapy work and workshunded.

jobs and all that stuff, and just healthier relationships in general. Yeah. I don't know the solution. I don't know a solution, but I know I'm trying to be a better model for other men to witness. That's beautiful. I'm trying to bring other men on and have these types of conversations so that younger men could see like, oh, okay, here's someone that maybe I like what he does or

what he's very. He's an athlete and I can understand and relate to that. Hopefully I can start to do this with my own life or maybe with my girlfriend or my guy friend and try to have something. conversations but I just think it's challenging in general. Yeah. It's challenging when you're younger and you're trying to have a few friends and they don't accept it. Yeah, exactly. That's tough. Yeah, yeah. Because no kid wants to be alone. No, no. They want to just hang out and go on the playground and just be with their buddies. Yeah. So it's really challenging. Yeah. Do you have kids?

No, I don't have kids. I don't have the solution to that but I think as a, you know, I don't have kids either, but if I was a parent, I would just encourage showing emotion with my with my sons or daughters and be the example be vulnerability with them yeah allow myself to feel allow myself to cry if i'm watching a movie or something happens in my life when i'm feeling it yeah to not wall up but to allow myself yeah this is i mean we're going up another topic yeah we're going up another topic here for another conversation but as an academic as a neuroscientist and a study of psychology and the brain and and all these things you've come from a very academic approach to your research.

But a year ago, you unfortunately lost your father and your brother around the same time. And while you were writing the book, and so you had to kind of shift some of the stuff writing the book because you were experiencing on an emotional level what you were kind of researching. Yeah, yeah. Can you share more the biggest lessons you learned from these types of losses for yourself and how you emotionally had to navigate it when maybe you didn't have the answers? Yeah. And what did you learn from that experience?

Yeah. So it really was the week that I was about to dive in and start writing the real chapters of this book Good Anxiety. And that was when my younger brother passed away completely unexpected. Younger brother. My younger brother. Just three months after our father had passed away. So we were just healing, still raw from losing my father, our father.

And then he had an unexpected heart attack. Really? And so first, just that pain and grief that I was experiencing is not the same as anxiety. It shares some of those negative emotions. This was just lost, grief, sadness. It was so painful. like how could this happen? It feels like a different reality.

Everything looked the same, but it just felt so different. And it forced me to explore these feelings that I'd have had incleings of in the past, but never to this extent. And kind of in this wave of first my dad and then my brother. And I slowly came back, from it and I used some of the tools that I talk about in the book that were already in place for me. Morning meditation. So I do a morning tea meditation. Tea meditation, which I describe

in the book, which is a meditation over brewing and drinking tea. For me, that was the magic bullet for meditation because there's a sequence for brewing tea. You boil the water, you put it in the tea leaves, you let it seep, and then you pour it out and then you drink it. And, and And that kind of sequence kept my meditation going. So I always had something to do. I was waiting, I was waiting for the tea to brew. I get to drink the tea now. I get to be mindful about how does the tea feel?

How is it? How does it taste? And I really came to appreciate that there is this moment. And yes, everything on the outside of my meditation feels like it's different. But this moment still feels like every other moment. that I enjoyed my tea meditation. So that helped me come back to,

I am alive. I'm so lucky to be alive. Yes. Perspective. Yeah. So lucky to have the family that's still with me. And exercise, my first book, Healthy Brain, Happy Life, was all about the transformative effects of exercise on the brain.

So after I meditate, I do my workout in the morning. And it was really one day I was doing my workout. It's a video workout. And the trainer said, it was a hard workout. And she said, you know, in working out with great pain comes great wisdom. Ooh, I love that. And I was like, oh, my God, that is what I need to hear, not just for working out. I have just gone through the worst pain in my whole life.

And I do have more wisdom. That wisdom is based in the love that was left behind. Yes. And not just left behind, that sounds like it's leftovers. The love that is here. Yes. You know, that's still here from my brother and my father. And that's when I started to think about this book, Good Anxiety in a different way.

Because anxiety is an everyday kind of pain and suffering that we all go through. And what if that leads to wisdom? what what does that look like and i needed as much wisdom and power that i needed and so the book became searching for the power and the wisdom in everyday anxiety it never would have been that if i hadn't had this event happen and so um that's where the six superpowers or gifts of anxiety came from i needed them to be superpowers we ended up calling them gifts. But same thing. And yeah, so that is the real origin story of this book. That's crazy. I always talk about the importance of experiencing some type of structured pain on a daily basis.

And for me, that's just a workout. It's like something that makes you uncomfortable. Yes. That's like, I don't want to do this. I don't want to push a little harder. But when we do that, I feel like everyday healthy pain is going to help you a long term. Yes, absolutely. Make happier, healthier. Exactly. What are the positive effects on the brain when we deal with physical healthy pain?

Yeah. So physical activity, and we know the most about aerobic activity, any activity that gets your heart rate out. The best way I know how to convey this is that every single time you move your body, It's like you're giving your brain a wonderful bubble bath of neurochemicals. Really? Yes. Those neurochemicals include dopamine, serotonin, neuroadrenaline, growth factors, and the dopamine and serotonin, what does that do?

It makes you feel good. It makes you feel rewarded. That's why just going out for a walk outside when you're, you know, things are going up to here and you can't handle it anymore, it immediately makes you feel better. The growth factors that get released, in your brain with every workout doesn't necessarily do something immediately. But it leads to one of the biggest wow that I have to this day about the effects of exercise on the brain.

So growth factors that you are releasing every time you work out, it helps brand new brain cells grow in your hippocampus. Did you know that all of those workouts that I know you've done all your lifetime is actually growing you a big, fat, fluffy hippocampus. Hippocanus. Not a brain, hippocampus. And there's only two brain areas where new brain cells are born in adulthood. One is the olfactory bulb that helps with smell, and that doesn't grow with more exercise.

But the second is the hippocampus critical for your long-term memory function. That grows, new cells grow with more growth factors that come with exercise. And it's not going to cure aging. It's not going to cure neurodegenerative disease states like Alzheimer's, but it'll give you the biggest, fattest hippocampus that you could have when you get to that age where the neurodegeneration might start happening if it's in your genes. So it'll take longer for the enough brain cells too. Yeah, got you.

Interesting. Okay. So working out how many times a week helps you with the hamikana's growth? How many is there? Yeah. So here's what I've found in my lab. So for low-fit people that haven't started their regular workout, I took low-fit people and I found significant improvements in mood, in their prefrontal function and hippocampal function

with just two to three aerobic workouts a week. It's not nothing. It will make you sweat. And especially if you're just starting, that is a challenge. But that is the minimum that I found that will give you the low. more long-term improvement in your hippocampal function. Let's say you're somebody like you. You work out, I'm sure, very, very regularly. And so what we found is, first thing to know, your regular workouts have improved your brain.

You have a bigger prefrontal cortex. You have a bigger hippocampus. The prefrontal cortex is bigger because the synapsis, there's more connections, not because there's more cells. And your circulatory system, you're actually stimulating the growth of new. blood vessels in your brain with every workout. And that is fantastic because the brain uses, is the number one user of oxygen in the entire body. The brain is. The brain is. Overall muscles and the heart and everything, right? Way more. Blood. The brain is the number one user of oxygen and the blood, you know, brings oxygen. And so I want my brain to have as much oxygen as possible so it works the best. And so that's what you're doing. So working out brings more oxygen to the

brain? Working out will stimulate new blood vessels that, yes, bring more oxygenated blood to the brain. And if we don't work out on a consistent basis, what does that do to our brain? Yeah. So you don't get any of those benefits. You don't get the burst of good feeling from serotonin and dopamine. You don't get the big hippocampus. You don't get the blood vessels. And then the next question that everybody asked me is, how long a vacation can I take? You without working out so that I don't lose it. Sure. And, you know, what comes up, goes down.

It's true in the brain, true in muscles. You know, how long do I don't lift those weights so that my bicep goes down? There's a time frame. We don't have the exact amount of time. We know that it takes between three and nine months for these new hippocampal cells to grow with regular workouts. And, yeah, if you go on a two-year vacation, it's going to go back. Yeah, it's going to be hard.

It's going to be. What are some of these, so there's six superpowers, is that right? Yeah. Can you explain these superpowers? We've already talked about a couple of them, but can you explain the rest of them? Sure, sure. The first one is resilience. Yes.

And that really comes, I started the superpower book with that origin story that we being resilient. Being resilient. Because that is one of the first things that I realized came from that. that terrible experience. Yeah. That I had to write and give a eulogy for my brother. My brother is the social butterfly of our family.

There were 200 people and more that wanted to come. We had to keep down his celebration to just celebration of life to just 200. Not that, I mean, I speak to large audiences, but it was his eulogy. It made me definitely anxious to know that all his friends and our family were there. And where do the anxiety stem from? You don't want to mess it up. You don't want to make sure you did him justice with his life. I wanted to make sure that I did him justice.

And there was a lot of guilt there because it's like, ah, I wasn't a good enough sister. How come I didn't visit him more? How come I didn't, how come I didn't talk to him on a more regular basis? And talking about vulnerable conversations, The vulnerable conversation that I had with my parents being Japanese-American, third-generation, immigrants, you know, I call us kind of the Japanese-American version of Downton Abbey.

Very proper, you know, not a lot of hugging. We don't do a lot of, you know, exuberant kissing. Yes. And the truth. Not affectionate. Not affectionate. And the truth is, even though my brother and I knew that my parents loved us, we never said, I love you to each other as a girl.

Interesting. I think a lot of people have experienced that as well. Yeah. And I, at some point, my father had developed dementia and I thought, you know, I, I feel like I really want to say this. But it was, I got stuck. It's like, I don't know if I could actually just start saying it out of nowhere to my parents. That would be really, never said it. Never said it as an adult. Never. So you said it as a child, but not as adult. I think I said it as a child. I mean, we got kissed good night and stuff, but I don't exactly remember. You know, it had. been so long. It's like, but I had this desire to say, say this to both of my parents. And so I decided I had to ask them permission to say, I love you. And so I, I, how did that work? Well, what did you say? I'll tell you. I was living in New York. They live in California. And I spoke to

them every Sunday. And I decided, I built up my courage and I said, this Sunday is going to be the big day. The day that I asked them, I ask them whether I can say, I love you. Oh my goodness to them and I know this how this happens my mom always answered the phone and I tell her about my week and then she passes it to my dad and I tell him about all the same stories and then that's how the telephone call went every Sunday and so you know I called my mom answered I told her about my week and then somewhere in the middle there I said hey mom you know how we never say I love you at the end of these telephone calls what do you say if we we we start to say that. Silence. Silence. Is this FaceTime?

No, no, no. This is just a regular, you know, cell phone call to my, yeah, phone call to my mom. Silence. Silence. Silence for a long, long, long time. I can't tell how long it was because I felt like forever probably. It felt like forever. And then she said, I think that's a great idea. I was, I was trying to keep it, you know, keep it light. No big deal. And I said, oh, great. I've never said I love you to before. Yeah, but yeah, whatever. Whatever. Yeah. Oh, great. Well, let's do that. Okay. So we finished off our conversations. But then... The moment comes. Yeah, we both are realizing that, oh, my God, it's the end of the conversation. We're actually going to have to say it. And so... And it was clearly...

It was like, I felt like there were two lions serving each other. Like, what's going to happen? Who's going to go first? And I, well, I asked, so I thought, I need to initiate this. And so I get nervous when I tell the story because I remember the fear. And I said, because my theme was keep it light, I said, okay, I love you. It's like Big Disney, I love you. I love you. And my mom said, I love you too. And then she went to go get my dad.

Dad, Wendy's on the phone. And so it's over. She wanted to get it over. We were both secretly thinking, oh my God, thank God, that's over. That was so hard. And then I talked to my dad and I explained it to him. It was easier. It was harder with my mom for some reason.

I knew my dad would say yes. And so he said yes. We said are awkward, I love yous. And then we hung up. And I started crying, you know, at the end of that call. Because that's beautiful, yeah. I had never said, I love you to my parents before. So it felt really good.

My father had dementia. The next week I called back. I said, I love you to my mother, slightly less awkwardly. And, you know, at this point, my father, really, he couldn't tell whether it was Thanksgiving or Christmas that I was visiting at. So I was prepared to remind him that we had made this agreement. But he said, I love you first. Oh, that's beautiful. Yeah.

He had dementia at the time. He had dementia at the time. He had dementia at the time. He remembered it. Oh, man. That's beautiful. You know, emotional resonance. We remember.

the happiest and the saddest events of our life. Yeah. And his daughter had never asked him. Wow. My goodness. Whether she could say, I love you. And he remembered, and he remembered every single week through his entire,

including the last time I spoke to him. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. So that was really... That's beautiful. But I never said, I love you to my brother, going back to the eulogy. And, you know, that was a big source of guilt.

It's like, how come I didn't do it? I should have done it. I knew. But it was weird because he was not my parents. He was my brother. And same thing. He broke kind of guy. Not that I'm sure he would have said it,

but it was really hard to have that conversation with him. So, yeah, lots of things like that going through my mind. Yeah, of course. preparing and getting ready to give this. But I got through it and it had funny parts in it. It had parts that I made everybody cry, including myself. And I was very proud that I was able to get through it. And that I really, really felt for the first time in my life, if I could get through that. I could get through anything. So that most horrible thing, really gave me the most resilience that I've ever felt personally in my whole life.

And again, that's the origin story. And every single time we're able to get through that anxiety, even if we get through and we don't feel so good, you've gotten through, you made it to the next time. And that can help you build your resilience little by little. And that was part of the gift. of, and I know that grief wasn't anxiety, but going through these hard times, that anxiety kind of gives us a little bit of a gift of, it gives us lots of, you know, challenges to get through.

That is what ultimately builds up our resilience. Well, anxiety gives us the ability to experience courage. Yeah, right? Exactly. Because we didn't have that fear and anxiety. You wouldn't have to bring the courage out to prepare, to show up, to know like, okay, I'm going to cry at some point in front of 200 people. And I'm a shy person.

I don't like people seeing me this way. It gives you the courage to become something you've never become before. Yeah. And step into a different version of yourself. Yeah, yeah. Or step into who you truly are that you've been holding back. Yeah, that's true. So, you know, it's not fun.

But it allows us to access certain characteristics and skills that maybe we don't utilize. Yeah. And that courage is a skill that is so beautiful. And, you know, people say, oh, how do I get more courage? How do I do it? And it really is going back to that action. That anxiety and that activation was designed and evolved to put us into action, including to act in that courageous way.

That phone call to my parents to say, I love you, was a very courageous act. It was huge. How many years were you thinking about that? Many months because it was during the development of my father's dementia, that it's like it was building up, building up. It's, oh, no, I don't want to deal with that. That's too hard. And I can't tell you the number of people that have come up to me that said, oh, my God, I don't say, I love you to my parents. And you gave me the courage to do it.

And a lot of Asian people, because it comes from our culture. But also, lots of other cultures don't. have that in their natural way of talking to each other. But it taps our social element and our need to express what we truly feel, which is love. So that's the first superpower. I want to talk about love though for a second. Where does love play into overcoming stress, worry, and anxiety? If we have more love in our life with the people who connect to the people that to us and love for ourselves, does anxiety stress and worry diminish? Absolutely.

I think that is one of the things that we can help balance this anxiety that has gone up significantly since the start of the pandemic is one way is to work on those events that cause you anxiety, which is a great thing to do. And the other thing is to build up the positive emotions to counter anxiety. we talked about joy conditioning. Yes. Bringing more love into your life through social interactions. The number one predictor of a long life is the number of positive social connections that you have.

Really? Yes. And I thought it's going to be exercise. It's going to be exercise on top because of my first book. But no. Exercises, I don't know, three or four or five. It is social connections. And it doesn't have to be that, you know, girl,

friend that you've had since third grade, it can be positive interactions that you have with the barista at your coffee shop, having that positive banter, giving them, you know, giving them a little punch in the arm and they get it, give it back to you. That counts, which I love thinking about that. So that happiness and joy that you can bring, it costs nothing for you and it is giving you a longer life. Absolutely. Interesting. So, but love in general. Is there research or the science behind what love does for, like a happy brain, a healthy heart? So love is a natural counteraction to the stress that you were talking about. And in fact, so the part of the nervous system that is controlling all of those stress responses that we talked about,

the blood going to the muscles, the high heart rate, the high respiration is called the sympathetic nervous system. Luckily, we have an equal and opposite part of our nervous system called the parasympathetic nervous system, not stimulating love specifically, but it helps calm everything down. It decreases the heart rate. It decreases respiration. It brings blood back into our digestive and reproductive systems. It's called the rest and digest nervous system. Yes.

Parasympathetic. Parasympathetic. Parasympathetic, rest and digest. Fight or flight. Okay. Okay. And so... So we want to be more in the parasympathetic.

Yes. Yeah. You want to be able to control. Yes. Be in that state. Yes. So that when we need to stress, when we need to take on something scary, right. We lean into the sympathetic, but we're not staying in the sympathetic all day long.

Right. Right. And the best way to lean into parasympathetic when you start to feel that really bad anxiety come on is deep breathing. Yes. deep breathing because that is the only thing in that list that I gave you that we have conscious control over. I can't make my heart rate go down. I can't bring blood into my digestive tract, but I can breathe deep and long. And people would be, if you haven't tried this before, just deep, four-part breath where you breathe in for four counts, hold it for four counts,

breathe out for four counts, hold it out for four counts. Easiest way to bring some of that calm, back in because you are actively stimulating the parasympathetic nervous system. Absolutely. Yeah. So, but love can also stimulate the parasympathetic nervous system in the sense that it decreases your heart rate. But mainly, it's kind of a different animal. My most popular lecture of all the lectures that I've ever given in my entire 23-year career

at NYU, it's called the neurobiology of love. She's like, ooh, I want to know. I want to know about the neurobiology of love. Is this online also? Yes, actually, it is. You can go to the website. All my lectures for my Brain and Behavior class were videotaped.

And so I get to tell the intriguing story in my Neurobiology of Love lecture about the Prairie Vols. Have you ever heard of... Prairie Vols. Voles. Prairie Voles. No, I know what that is. Prairie voles are these little rodent-like animals that live in the Midwest. I'm from Ohio. Yeah, yeah. I've probably seen them. You've probably seen them. But they're one of the few.

Like a prairie dog or something? No, different from prairie dogs. These are prairie voles. And prairie voles are one of the few mammals that form lifelong peer bonds. Really? And the way they form it is fascinating. So they live in large multi-generational family units. And so all the, all the Prairie Vols have a particular area, a territory. And a pair bond forms when an almost mature female Prairie Vol that isn't pair bonded yet, is walking down the trail and she smells the urine of a male prairie vole not in her family unit. Well, that is like love potion number nine to her, that urine. And if that depositor of the urine is around, they mate for 40. hours straight. It's pretty impressive. Wow. It's a lot of energy. Yeah, it's a lot of energy. You know, they have that small body high metabolism. They need it. 40 hours is amazing. And what happens

in that 40 hours? Well, in the female prairie vols, oxytocin, that hormone of love and connection gets released like a tidal wave in their brain. And in the males, it's vasopressin that gets released as a tidal wave in their brain. And you can show in the lab if you artificially mate them that if you block oxytocin during this mating period, they will not form the pair bond in the females. And if you block vasopressin, you won't, you won't form the paraben. So is it the case that, you know, what if I mate for 40 hours? Will I form a lifelong pair bond? It doesn't quite work that way. But it identified these key hormones that are those connecting bonds that we know something's happening, right?

When we're forming that first connection that keeps us, that, you know, finds us a partner. Absolutely. And so that was the start of the real neurobiological study of love and connection. Because before that it's like, oh, that's too mushy. We can't, we can't study that, right? But now they had a hormone and they can look at the genes behind that hormone. They can delete the hormone.

and they could image people when they were, one of my favorite studies was they imaged a group of people that had just fallen in love. They were in that honeymoon phase of falling in love. And they identified a set, a complex set of structures, of course, it wasn't just one that lit up when they were in love, but reward systems, dopamine systems were very highly activated in love.

And, um, um, Interestingly, after, then what happens after you're together for five years? Does that disappear? Then what happens? Yeah. Have you seen the research that shows you can sustain that for decades? It evolves. It evolves.

And what happens is that those people that are still in love that still have a strong relationship. Yes. The pattern of activation is different. It's not the same activation as in that honeymoon phase. Which is more what, the sexual attraction? chemistry, the chemicals of the attraction. It's, you know, in the modality that was measured, it was brain activation. So we were just looking, they were just looking at the networks that were that were activated.

But what it comes to evolve into is that kind of activation that you see in parent and child. So that strong family connection, you not only see it in parents. parent and child, but between long-term partners. And it makes sense. Our relationships evolve. I think it would be hard to sustain that honeymoon feeling for years and years, 20, 30 years down the line, but it involves into a different kind of social connection

that has a different brain signature. And they've shown that that brain signature is similar cultures, which is interesting. Is it only in the United States or they've done these studies in China throughout Europe and it's the same patterns that are quite unique in the early throes of love and it evolves into something different later on if you stay together. Have you studied a lot of, I guess, the brain science around relationships and love and intimacy long term?

You know, that area of research is still pretty, new. Okay. And so I always keep an eye on it because I know it's my most popular lecture and I want to update the students. Is there anything you could share around what to look for in a relationship around the neuroscience of a partner? Like meeting a partner, is there certain questions you could ask if, see if they have the right brain chemistry? I don't know. Is there anything else you think we could look for from research or studies or examples that you've scene around understanding like, is this a potential good partner for me? Yeah, yeah.

Well, I have one warning from an experience that I had, which was I did an event with the Tisch School of the Arts at NYU, the acting school. And we were talking about the neurobiology of emotion and the neurobiology of love. And we were doing it with the graduate acting class. Yes. going to go on to be the Merrill Streep's of our time. And they said, okay, we're going to do an exercise. Everybody come up. And for some reason, I went up on stage to do it with them. So I got partnered up with one of the... An actor. One of the actors. Students. Yeah. One of the student actors. And they basically took us through, you know those 36 questions that you ask a stranger to get...

To see if you're like fall in love or something? Where you like stare in their eyes and you ask the question? Yeah. But no words. They led us through. exercises like that. And they led us through things like, now you have a choice. You can step closer to your partner or you can step away. I didn't know this guy.

He's like, oh my God, it became so critical. What is he going to do when it was his turn to make these choices? And I kind of fell in love with this person. Wow. You know, like 10 minutes or something? Yeah, it was 10 minutes.

And it made me realize that kind of the system can be hacked. Was this, you know, random student, the love of my life? No, I had enough, you know, prefrontal cortex to know that that wasn't going to have. This 21-year-old is probably not right from me. Yeah. Exactly. No. But, but it was such a powerful, powerful experience. And it, and, you know, I, I, uh, I had wondered about doing those 31 questions. Like, yeah, you know what? I'm not going to do that because I need to have those questions. come up organically to test out other things because you can almost trick the brain to feel chemically connected. Exactly. When there's no connection there. So that's my lesson. You can

quickly have those or I quickly developed very powerful feelings. In minutes. Yes. With a stranger. With a stranger. But there could have been other red flags or values or something that maybe wasn't aligned to you long term. Right. But our brains can create such connection, right? Or our bodies and emotion, everything combined. Yes. What happens with when someone is sexually connected early on? Say within the first week, you have sex with someone.

What does that do to the same type of brain chemistry? Is it more powerful than these kind of 31 questions of intimacy and love? That would be an interesting experiment, right? To compare and contrast. But what does that do when you sexually bond with someone, And whether you've known them for a day, a week, a month, how does that accelerate the feeling of love and like we're supposed to be together? Yeah, yeah.

Well, that's where we can turn back to the studies of the prairie voles. We know that, well, we don't have exactly the same brain chemistry or brain response. There is release of those love hormones, oxytocin and vasopressin, and that does give you that feeling of bonding. The more sex you have, the more... kind of physical connection that you have. So, you know, I think our goal is to step back and think, do I need more physical connection

or do I need to get to know this person a little better, see what their values are, have more verbal conversations before I get myself bonded to this person. Because it's hard to unbond. It's hard to unbond. You feel more and more connected. Yeah. And you might oversee certain behaviors or actions because you feel the connection.

Exactly. Yeah. I can't answer a lot of problems. Not that we're relationship experts here. No, no, no. Definitely not here. But it's just curious to know the neuroscience and the psychology behind intimacy, whether you're having a dyad in front of someone talking about vulnerable things or answering

vulnerable questions. Right. You created intimacy and connection quickly. and also sexual connection that bonds people. Yeah. That's interesting. So, wow, you got to be careful what type of questions you asked someone. You've got to be careful.

And it really heightens the importance of your prefrontal cortex, which is that decision-making brain area. You don't want it clouded. And two things we've talked about today can cloud the prefrontal cortex. High levels of anxiety, literally shut it down. We know the neurochemistry and the molecular biology of that. that absolutely happens. And so when you have too high of levels of anxiety,

it depletes your decision-making process and you default to the automatic. Just whatever is most common I do in my body, that's what I do, because I've lost my ability to evaluate. And similarly, those, you know, that connection that could happen through sexual encounters can also block off your decision-making processes. I think that lots of people have, it's like, yeah, I think I didn't, I wasn't making the best decisions there sometimes, right?

We've all done that, yeah. So, yeah, so preserve your prefrontal cortex. Use that part of your brain. And that is the antidote to my warning there. I think that is, that is a powerful tool in relationships. And another superpowers about opening the door to flow. What does that mean? enhancing your performance and open the door to flow.

Yeah. So I wanted to talk about flow because one of the things that anxiety does beautifully well is it shuts flow down. So flow... You can't get into flow when you're stressed. No, exactly. You've got to be fully in the moment and feel freedom, essentially, right? You've got to feel free. Yes, exactly.

And so, first of all, I was depressed because I read the definition of flow. and it's, you know, you have to be this world leader, and then you have to be at the height. It's like, what, I can never have flow in my life? And then I get stressed about that, and then it goes even further, which is why in the book I coined another term, which is microflow.

Look, I may not have the flow that Yo-Yo Ma or Serena Williams gets in that beautiful moment right before they're going to, you know, win the prize. However, I can tell you that I do enjoy flow in my life, going back to my joy conditioning. I have microflow when I'm in Shavasana at the end of a yoga class. I felt really sweaty. All that sweat is drying. I feel so good. That is flow. For one minute. For one minute. It is flow. And we're talking about building up those positive events in your life. And just the realization that we have many moments of microflow that might flip by.

We didn't even recognize them. Recognize them. That is like, oh, I love microflow of having a wonderful cup of tea right before I needed or at the end of the day. It is that appreciation. It is the savoring. Learning how to savor is a wonderful antidote to anxiety. So many moments in the last three months.

I just stop and I say, man, what a beautiful moment. Yeah. What a beautiful moment. I look, I'm just being more aware of my surroundings and the people I'm with and just little moments. I'm just like, what a beautiful moment. Yeah. When I savor these multiple times throughout the day, I just feel better. Yeah.

And I think that's important. You're saying that because a lot of times we're just on to the next, on the next, on the next. Yeah, exactly. We're not thinking about this moment. But literally look in the sky and just be like, oh, do you ever imagine like we are in the middle of a, we're a dust of sand floating around in an infinite universe? This is unbelievable. Yeah. You know, just the awe of what this is is amazing.

It is. Yeah, that's a moment of microflow. Right. Just that appreciation. And I found myself, I'm not a good picture taker, but it messes up my microflow. if I try and take a picture of it. I just went, I'm staying with friends, and we took the little girl

to her very first day of kindergarten. No, first grade, sorry, first grade today. And it was so sweet to see her. She found a little friend, and so she went skipping down with holding the hand of her little friend, and I was cried. And then I was too late to take a picture,

but I got that moment. That is such a beautiful. beautiful thing to witness. She's excited to go to the first day of first grade. She's never going to have this day again, never this moment again. That's cool. That's really cool. The microflow. I love that. The next thing is nurture an activist mindset. What does that mean? Yeah. So this is really about the power of mindset. And we've been talking about it all along. Is this an experience that's going to batter me down because anxiety is out to get me. or is it a challenge that I can do an experiment, as you were talking about, to see whether I can do it.

And it really doesn't matter if I fail, I win or lose. I learn so much from the failure. Okay, I'm not going to do that again. And I do it the next thing. And that shift of mindset, I just have to remind myself and there's so many things that can put you into that bad anxiety. If I'm hungry, if I'm hungry, you know, all those things, it's harder to pull myself out. but reminded myself of what a positive mindset can do. It not only shifts your brain networks,

it shifts your whole physiology. It decreases cortisol. The beautiful experiments that the psychologist, Aaliyah Kram at Stanford, has shown that all you have to do is tell hotel workers that their level of physical activity in changing the bed sheets, the surgeon general said, is actually, above average, you are getting a good workout. When they said, no, I don't workout at all.

I don't have time. I'm too busy. I'm too tired. That changed their mindset. It made them lose more weight than the controls that were not told that they weren't working out. And it increased their job satisfaction. And so that one belief, what if you,

what is that belief, that idea that will change your day? day. That is a wonderful thing to ask yourself every day that you go in to a difficult situation or just your regular situation. That is beautiful. And what about, we talked about love and helping you, I guess, eliminate some of the stress and anxiety. What about purpose and having a meaningful purpose in your life? How does that, if you know that you're on a mission to, for a purpose, whether it be three months, a year or you're, you know, decades, you're on the same mission. Yeah. How does that help decrease anxiety and stress?

Yeah. For me, I feel like when you think about your purpose, it's like this tunnel vision, all of these things, all of those obstacles go away. And I feel personally, I was meant to do that. I know I'm going towards that. So let's just see how I get there. And you can throw anything at me. I got through my brother's eulogy.

So I got through that. I can get through anything. And that is a wonderful reminder and finding your purpose and really sticking to it and being playful with your purpose. So despite the fact that I was always a very shy young girl, I always had this secret desire that I knew it would never happen of being abroad. So I wanted to be Julie Andrews. I wanted to be Shirley Jones.

I watched all the Hollywood musicals. I dream of myself on stage doing that big number. And it turns out that that feeling, that secret feeling that I harbored all through my shyness comes out when I teach in front of the classroom. Which, by the way, is on Broadway. So in fact, I am performing on Broadway. That's great. Yeah, it is. And that I am a secret performer, and I've used that. And I feel like that is part of my purpose. Like I ended up doing neuroscience and I have all that science. And I could explain science to people so that they understand it. But I also have this kind of performer's secret, you know, desire to break out into songs. And it absolutely comes when I get in front of large audiences.

And the bigger the audience, the bigger the secret diva comes out. Really? You're like this ultimate performer. Yeah. Yeah. Something weird happens. And it's, I've discovered it since I did the first book and, you know, did more talks and bigger talks.

It's like, wow. That is part of the purpose. It is part of the skill set that I know that I have. that is bringing me towards that purpose. It is that ability, my way of communicating. And part of it is a science, and part of it is that secret Broadway. The performance. The performance.

And that love of the talent, I always had this huge appreciation of the talent that it takes to act and sing and dance. Such a talent. Such a talent. It's so hard. I wish, I wish, if I could only sing, I would have, you know, gone out for the Broadway plays, but sadly, I can't sing. But you had to heal people's hearts and brains instead.

Exactly. To help people heal. So, yeah. What about alter ego? Alter ego. Have you studied alter egos and how they support overcoming anxiety, stress, and worry, especially being in a performance setting or speaking at a eulogy or speaking on stage or performing at a big event or performing in athletics or speaking in front of. or speaking in front of a class.

Have you done any research on alter ego and developing it for the brain? No, I haven't. But I think that would be a fascinating study. Somebody asked me once, how do you give your talks? What is your process? And for me, it goes back to my science training.

Science, it turns out, is all about the story. What is that story that you're going to tell in this science experiment that you do? did. And I had a very great speaker and a great scientist that was my early mentor that encouraged me to think about that story. What is the story you're going to tell the audience? Because they don't want to hear all those boring details. They want to hear what the origin is, how you got through it, what is that hero's journey, and then what is your conclusion? And so I got hooked on telling the best science story. And then it takes a while to get the next story. But

because you have to do all these experiments and it's really, really hard. But I got really excited about building that next, what is that story gonna be and how am I gonna tell it? And that has informed, it turns out that, that's what storytellers do, and that's what actors do to get through their thing. So I came at it in a very different way,

but I was always about trying to get people that like, I know you may not be interested in this part of science. but let me try and pull you in and tell you why this is so cool, because I really have something cool to tell you. That's based on science. Yeah. So ultra-egos, is that an alter ego?

That is my strategy. And I guess it's kind of my secret energizer bunny that maybe it comes from my people-pleasing natural disposition. It's like, I want you, I want you to be. be as fascinated as I am with this. Let me show you how fascinating, because it is so fascinating. Just give me a second, let me explain it to you. And that's how I always approached my teaching,

and that's what evolved into my speaking that I do now. Yeah, I think that's cool. I think there's a, you know, I love studying athletes who have an alter ego. Beyonce has an alter ego, I think it's Sasha Fierce. When she steps on stage, she becomes this persona, which allows her to kind of overcome maybe this, stress or fear. Maybe she doesn't have that anymore, but when she was kind of rising in fame,

that'd be an interesting study to do alter egos and see how that supports people in overcoming anxiety if they believe they were another person. They believed they stepped into something that they had to help them overcome that anxiety. Yeah. And how it evolves over time because she does not have the same fear that she had that I'm sure drove her to create that and to have that energy. She's she's Beyonce now. Right, exactly. So what do you do? Yeah.

How do you become Beyonce? Yeah. That's interesting. There's so many other questions I want to ask you, but this has been an amazing couple of hours here. And I want to ask you the final few questions. But before I do, I want to make sure people get the book. You can go pick it up.

It's called Good Anxiety. harnessing the power of the most misunderstood emotion. Make sure you guys pick up a couple copies and give them to your friends. I see you've got my friend Daniel Eamon on here as well, who we've had on here. Yes, I saw that. Yeah. So lots of great people have endorsed this book. Make sure you guys pick up a couple copies.

I feel like this is one of the biggest challenges today is anxiety. People dealing with stress, anxiety around many things, the uncertainty of the future, their own identity in life, why we're here, relationships, money, career, just so much anxiety that people are consumed by. It's one of the things that I appreciated about how I was raised, my father wouldn't allow me to watch the news or commercials because he didn't want me to be consumed by negative programming

of, okay, you're going to get sick, you're going to be unwell, So you didn't need this drug, you need this thing, you need this solution, like always selling something that I don't need. So smart. And he would mute the commercials or turn them off, and he wouldn't less watch the news because it was always based around fear and conditioning

that there's more and more and more anxiety and fear in the world that I need to be consuming. And I am a happier, healthier person. When I don't consume storytelling of the worst of moments that are happening in life, like it's happening everywhere. You know, it might be happening somewhere. Yeah.

But it doesn't mean it's happening next door to me. Yeah. Or when I walk across the street. And so learning to find these moments of joy, learning to find these moments of beauty like you talked about and being in the moment, learning to create the social fabric of great connections with friends and staying in a positive environment.

For me, has been really helpful. And you've got 40 other strategies for making anxiety work for you in this book. So make sure you guys pick up a few copies. this give them to friends by Dr. Wendy Suzuki this is a question I ask everyone at the end called the three truths question so a hypothetical scenario imagine it's your very last day on earth many years away from now you get to you know live as long as you want but eventually it's the last day yeah you've accomplished all your dreams you've done all the research the science you've had all the fun the

joy everything you want to do you've done it yeah but for whatever reason your work that you've created in the world is no longer in the world. It goes with you to the next place or it goes somewhere else. But we don't have access to your information anymore. Your speeches, your videos, this content is gone. Yeah. But you get to leave behind three lessons to the world, three things that you know to be true from all of your experiences. Yeah. And this is all we would have to remember you by, these three lessons or three truths. Yeah. What would you say would be those three truths for you? For me, it would be that we were evolved to move our bodies.

And so learn how to bring movement into your life in a regular basis so that it's not hard, it's automatic, and your life will benefit from that. Absolutely. Number two is that your brain is the most complex structure. It is so unique. It is the most amazing thing. in the universe. And so use its powers to make your life better. Use that mindset to make your life in the world a better place. And the third is that social interactions in love is the most important thing to make our lives both longer and happier. So use that statistic for yourself.

So true. I mean, I was interviewing a doctor who he had mentioned that there were a couple moments in his life where he was going through a depressed state. It was a couple of years of depression or some sickness and some poor health that was happening in his life different decades apart. And I said, how did you get out of that? And he said, love. He said, I met someone and it created like this journey for me of like feeling better of love healing myself. Yeah. And love was the anchor that supported the healing, the growth, the peace of mind. Yeah.

And he's like both times it was love that helped him heal. So I think that's fascinating. It's the love we have with our friendships and our family, the love we, the intimate love we have. And those connections, I think, are extremely invaluable. I want to acknowledge you, Wendy, for the commitment you've had to this for, what, three decades now you've been doing this work and and putting your life's mission into creating practical inspiring tools for us to improve the quality of our life i think it's so valuable that there are people like you in the world who make this your mission because it can seem

daunting to overcome anxiety and stress and worry it can seem like there's no way out for a lot of people yeah the statistics of people going through deep depression and and suicides and just hurting themselves. Addictions are rising. And so for you to make this your mission and to be able to teach it in a way that we can understand it is very inspiring. So I really acknowledge you for your work, for your efforts, and for the growth that you've had to experience in the last few years to put these things into practice, unfortunately. But I think it makes you an even better teacher of these things and more empathetic to the world. So I really acknowledge you for that. And where can we connect with you online. Where do you spend the most time? I guess social, social media, your website,

where can we go? Yeah, my website, www.W.W.W.W.W.Dis Suzuki.com. You can go there to participate in the great, good anxiety social experiment. So you can go and do, test your own anxiety and test the effects of different tools, including the ones in the toolbox, on your anxiety. So you can take a quiz, essentially yeah you can see how anxious you are a stress and anxiety experiment a survey before and after different interventions that were we're testing and you get back the immediate effects tools on how to implement yes oh that's cool so you can see kind of wearing your life you're the most anxious and then which tool to implement for that right now yes I like it and that's at your website right

yes okay exactly and what social media are you on the most I'm on Facebook and Instagram okay Facebook and Instagram Wendy. Suzuki on Instagram and then Wendy Suzuki, you'll find you as well there on Facebook. Anything else we can do to support you besides the book, the quiz, social media, anything else we can go to. Gosh, that is... You can see your videos online. Yeah, videos online.

I'm so excited because that story that I told you about saying, I love you to my parents, was a moth talk. Oh, that's cool. So that was such a joy to be able to share with people. But I'm doing another one on Good Anxiety and it will be out in December. Okay, cool. So stay tuned for the origin story of good anxiety. Love it.

I'm excited. Okay, cool. This is the final question. It's what's your definition of greatness? My definition of greatness is using your unique brain to its full potential. whatever that means. That is great. And great is so many different things

in so many different people. And everybody has a beautiful and different brain. So that's my definition. I love it. Wendy, thank you so much for being here. Appreciate it.

Thank you so much, Lewis. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode

with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our greatness plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you if no one has told you lately

that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.