The School of Greatness - Trauma Specialist: Overcome the Cycle of Your Shame by Healing Trauma & Learning to Love Yourself!

Episode Date: May 15, 2024

Welcome back to The School of Greatness! Today, we're joined by Dr. Frank Anderson, a leading trauma expert and psychiatrist. Dr. Anderson opens up about his challenging journey, growing up in a traditional Italian American family that was both intensely loving and painfully unaccepting. From enduring six years of conversion therapy starting at just six years old to breaking the chains of generational trauma, Dr. Anderson's story is one of courage, healing, and the transformative power of embracing one's true self. Today, he's here to share insights on how to navigate through personal traumas and to help us understand the profound impact of acceptance and love. Get ready to dive deep into a story of resilience and transformation with Dr. Frank Anderson.Buy his book for yourself and a friend! To Be Loved: A Story of Truth, Trauma, and TransformationIn this episode you will learnThe challenges of growing up in a family with conflicting messages of love and acceptance.How enduring difficult childhood experiences can impact one's self-perception and mental health.The importance of embracing one's true identity despite societal pressures.Strategies to overcome personal traumas and foster resilience and healing.Why acceptance and love play crucial roles in personal growth and transformation.For more information go to www.lewishowes.com/1615For more Greatness text PODCAST to [phone]More SOG episodes we think you’ll love:Dr. Becky Kennedy – https://link.chtbl.com/1586-podRhonda Byrne – https://link.chtbl.com/1525-podDr. Joe Dispenza – https://link.chtbl.com/1540-pod

Trauma is negative energy that you carry. The more you release it, the more you, you become. But there is a way to release it. I have a very, very special guest today. MD, psychiatrist, therapist, speaker, and trauma specialist. And author of a newly released memoir, To Be Loved. Frank Anderson. Dr. Frank Anderson, good to see you.

Like at 32 is when my life fell apart. I was just too disconnected. Like, wow, Frank, you were so far from you. When we make decisions from parts of us that are trying to protect us. Or please others. Or please others. And a lot of that is fear of loss of connection. In here, our truth, our authenticity is silently screaming inside. What would you say is the number one emotion that blocks us from peace, harmony, and ultimate happiness? Shame. I think it's shame.

Shame is so toxic, and shame is usually the result of relational trauma. What happens if we sweep it under the rug, we run away from it? And shame is usually the result of relational trauma. What happens if we sweep it under the rug? We run away from it. What happens to everyone if we do that? I'll tell you what happened to me. We'll start there.

Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness. We have the inspiring Frank Anderson in the house, who is a Harvard-trained psychiatrist, a renowned trauma expert, and an expert on IFS and CPTSD, among many other things around how to heal trauma. And I'm so excited that you're here. I saw this stat online that said 70% of adults in the U.S. have experienced some type of traumatic event at least once in their life. That's right. That is a majority of the U.S. population, and I'm assuming that's similar around the world. Yeah. And I'm curious, how do we, to start it off, a big question,

how do we really face the things we've been running away from our entire lives so that we can integrate these traumatic moments, memories, or events in our life that have caused us to run away from them or chase things to fill an empty hole or traumatic hole experience in our life? How do we really start to turn around and face these moments that are so crippling and create so much fear and stress within us. Yeah. How does that process even begin? Well, it typically begins for people when their life falls apart. Yes. Sorry to say that.

When there's a massive breakdown. Right? People do not come to therapy because they're like, I have unresolved childhood trauma. Nobody goes, it's because I'm drinking too much. My wife is, you know, divorcing me. I've had an affair. I'm drinking too much. My wife is, you know, divorcing me. I've had an affair. I'm hitting my kids. Like people start real, like they kind of hit their bottom to say, okay, it's time to do something different. Right? So that's the way most people get into this. I'm trying to bring

people in, in a different way. Like, Hey, we all have some form of trauma. Like, and you know, the word trauma is activating for people, right? So I don't have trauma. Like in the general public, I don't have trauma, you know, not me. I'm not weak. That's not me. So there's this avoidance of the word. There's an avoidance of dealing with the pain. Move forward. Why go back? What's the point? So I'm trying to teach people, educate people, like maybe you can do a little preventative

medicine here. Like what if we looked at this before it became a disaster in your life? That's powerful. And I can relate to that because, I don't know, it was about 11 years ago, I finally started getting into opening up and facing the parts of me that were causing shame, resentment, anger, fear, stress, overwhelm, and breakdown in my life. And it was a storm of multiple events from a breakdown in an intimate relationship, business relationship, and then me

taking it out on the basketball court with my anger on others who were just like, you know, random bystanders, um, to where a friend was like, Hey, I don't like the way you're showing up. And I, and I allowed me to look in the mirror and say, man, all these breakdowns, the common denominator is me. Right. You know? me. But I didn't want to acknowledge it. I wanted to blame everyone else. I wanted to say, they don't understand me. They don't get me. They're taking advantage of me. They're abusing me. Whatever it might be, it's pointing the blame at others as opposed to looking within. And when I had these different events that caused me multiple breakdowns and someone

confronting me that I cared about, I was like, oh, maybe I should take a look at myself. And that started the journey over the last 11 years of healing. And healing is a journey. It's not like it was overnight and I'm healed and I'm better. But it allowed me to start diving into these different therapeutic experiences that have given me harmony and peace and wholeness back. And I know this has been your mission for a long time to help people heal from traumas. And one of the things is I know a lot of people that say, I had great childhoods. My parents were great. Beautiful, loving families and relationships.

My parents were great. Beautiful, loving families and relationships. And maybe they didn't have big T traumas, but they had little T traumas that caused them to be avoidant, resentful, get into situations where they allow their boundaries to be crossed over and over again. They become doormats, things like that. So what is the difference between big T trauma, little T trauma? And should we be thinking about addressing both of that? 100%. It's a great move. It's a great shift that's happening in culture and society. And, you know, friends of ours, mutual friend, Nicola Pera is a perfect person that's like, hey, maybe when you're ignored, hey, maybe when you're yelled at,

that can have an impact too, right? So she's a perfect person that's bringing that awareness. For people who know about the ACE studies, the Adverse Childhood Experiences Study, big study here in California, right? And they looked at kids that were growing up in alcoholic families, kids that had divorces, there was physical or verbal abuse in there, and all of the problems that these kids had growing up and all the cost, bigger deal to the medical community. Like, oh, that's when everybody started looking. So complex- How many things, what is that? What is that called? ACE, the ACE study.

ACE study. Adverse Childhood Experiences Study. And how many, I guess, points are there in that? I don't remember. They have a questionnaire and there's a rating scale. I think there are nine points, but I'm not quite sure. If you had like your parents were divorced, if you had sexual abuse, if you were yelled at, if you were whatever it might be. Witnessed something.

You witnessed something traumatic. Yeah, that's another thing. I remember someone reading this off to me and I was like, I think I've experienced every one of those things. Right, right. And I was like, does that just mean I'm messed up for life? If everybody took the scale, everybody would have a lot of them. This is the thing that, this is what I was saying earlier. People get weirded out by the word trauma.

I'm using, Louis, overwhelming life experience. Yes. It's more palatable for people. I'm like, have you ever had an overwhelming life experience? Well, yeah. Of course, bullied on the playground, or any shamed at so-and-so, or failing in school, or not making the football team, whatever it is. So people relate to that word, overwhelming life experience, differently than some people are adverse to the word trauma because I'm not weak, right? They're triggered by trauma.

Exactly. That's exactly right. So I'm trying to normalize that in the ways that I can and say, look, these things have an effect on us. And we naturally have ways to try to protect ourselves. They might not be the most effective, but give yourselves a break for the ways you're trying to protect yourself or push the bad stuff away. I do this like cavemen. We're wired like in the day, touch the fire, the fire hurts, stay away from the fire.

You know, it's like that. So we're just automatically programmed to stay away from pain. So bringing people to the pain, they're like, why would I do that? So it is counterintuitive. I was talking to somebody the other day. It's like we do the U-turn, go inside, and you're going against the current because the current is stay away, push it away, get rid of it, move forward. Sweep it under the rug. Yeah. And that's what our natural instinct is. What happens if we resist looking at the overwhelming life experiences or traumas in our life and we

sweep it under the rug, we run away from it? What happens to everyone if we do that? I'll tell you what happened to me. We'll start there. Because I was in therapy, as you know, starting at six years old. Your parents forced you to do this, right? As a kid, the book opens like, you're not going to school today, Frankie. It's like, why? We're going to a hospital. For what? I'm not sick. And I went downtown for psych testing because I got caught in my cousin's basement playing with her Barbie playhouse. This was back in the day when being gay was a total disorder, right? So my parents, well-intended, by the way, oh, we have to make Frankie normal. They sent me to therapy for six years as a kid

because I got caught playing. I thought the Barbie playhouse was cool. The toilet, the little furniture. I was like a kid. I didn't know. I wasn't like- Exploring. I was exploring. And at the time, it was a problem. So I was in therapy for a long time, learned how to do boy things, how to play with with boy toys how to act like a boy like do baseball i did all this kind of stuff um and so i learned i was taught to suppress right i was taught to suppress what i ended up doing was marrying a woman which is what you're supposed to do as a man right and so it was a kind of a mess like at 32 is when my life fell apart

like you talked about yours right when you got married was there something inside of you when you're like walking down the aisle or i guess you're not walking down but when you're about to get married is there something inside of you that's saying like i don't think this feels right or were you like i'm excited and this is going to be my future forever. I would like to. So here's what it was like actually for me was like, this is what you're supposed to be. This is what you're supposed to do. I was doing the right thing. I didn't even know what love was. I never felt in love in my life.

I didn't even know that I was missing. Like, I didn't know I was missing something. I was like, this is what everybody else is doing. We were friends. I really liked her as a friend, but I didn't even understand what love was in that way. So I just did the right thing. I did what everybody wanted me to do. Everybody seemed happy and I liked her. You know what I mean? I got along and you know, here's the thing, honestly, maybe not every gay guy could do this i can have sex with a woman it felt pleasurable like it was physically pleasurable i had an orgasm like i could do that so there wasn't even that that was like frank this is a

problem here do you know what i mean everybody's got their orientation on a spectrum right so it i wasn't like walking receiving her at the end of the aisle being like this is a problem stop this i i was just too disconnected i i feel sad about that now like wow frank you were so far from you look what you did you know look what you were able to do so disconnected. What happens in someone's life when they make decisions out of disconnection to please parents, society, certain rules or standards versus being fully and wholly who they are and meant to be? What happens? Yeah, the difference. It's a great question. It's a great question because the difference

when we make decisions from parts of us that are trying to protect us. Or please others. Or please others. And a lot of that is fear of loss of connection. I'm going to do this because this is what I can see. This is what you want for me. And if I give you what you want for me, then I won't lose you. A lot of it is fear of loss. But you lose yourself. You lose yourself. Or parts of yourself.

Or you never had yourself. See, this is what happens with kids when parents are yelling or screaming or drunk or whatever it is, ignoring you. You as a child have to choose them over you. To survive. To survive. You have to choose them over you, right? So you learn you're the last one that's important. Yeah. Okay. You're relating to that on some level i mean i

think a lot of people are right that yeah we do that's what happens so we're kind of programmed that way and so we make these decisions in a disconnected way most of us do and then it falls apart because this in in here our truth, our authenticity is screaming, silently screaming inside. Because we're not living an authentic life. How do you, you know, someone's watching or listening and saying, you know, I love my parents and I love my family. And, you know, the family that I grew up with, obviously everyone's a little dysfunctional. Yes. But they don't support

my decision of whatever, of me choosing to love this person. They don't support my decision of pursuing a career that I love. It's against their Christian religion or something religion for me to want to fully step into who I believe I'm supposed to be. Right. Whether I'm right or wrong about it, but it's what I fully believe feels right to me. That's right. How do you have the courage to be who you want to be without disappointing, letting down, and disconnecting with your parents, family, and community?

It just happened to me recently with my mom. I'll tell you about this a little bit later in our discussion together um we have a hard time with the end of things we have a really hard time with an and like can i be myself and also love you can i be myself and tolerate your feelings of disappointment? Okay? So we kids don't do and because they don't have the psychological capacity. Yeah. Or the emotional regulation.

No, you can't do it. So adults have a really hard time doing that. So do parents, you know. Because they never learned how to do it. They never learned how to do it. So this and is really complicated. It's kind of black or white. You either live by the standards or the rules or the code that I live by.

That's exactly right. Or I don't know how to be with you. Right. And I have to truly like, love, respect myself enough to choose me over disappointing you. That is not easy to do. I'll tell you a story recently. So my mom, it's a lot in there about both my parents. My dad was physically and verbally abusive to me. My mom was kind of the passive bystander, right? You need that combination in order for it to happen. And she won't read the book.

She's like, I can't read this book. It's too traumatizing for her. It's too traumatizing. You're defaming the family. My father passed away. And you're destroying his... So I said to her, this was last week when I was in Chicago filming something. I said, Mom, is it possible for you to love him and acknowledge that I was hurt growing up?

I said, if you can't, that's okay. Wow. Okay? I can now. I actually love my father, and he really hurt me for things that were more about him than they were about me. And what I said, Louis, was, I mean, this is raw. Do we ever stop healing? No. This was last week. I'm like, Mom, I chose you my whole childhood because I needed to. When I came out at 32, that was the first time

I chose myself over you. Wow. And I'm doing it again. I'm sorry. I'm going to tell my story. This is my truth. And if I lose you over that, I'm going to take that risk. I hope I don't because I love you.

I could love you and know what happens. And I hope you can too. And it was a big moment for us. And she throws to the occasion. I tell you, she was 84 years old. God love her. She's like, I love you. Yes, you were hurt.

And I'm sorry I didn't protect you. Wow. Oh my gosh. I swear to God. I've been such a gift. That's healing. It was hugely healing. It was hugely healing for me. It's like, I like I never expected that.

I had a moment with my dad at the end of his life, which was hugely healing. And then I had this like last week with her. And I was like, right before the book comes out. And she's like, I'm going to read the book. Okay, mom. So she was able to, because of my capacity to show up, helped her capacity to join me. Yeah, and it sounds like, I'm assuming you didn't come from a defensive,

upset way of communicating. No, 100%. You came from a courageous, loving, appreciation. I love you, I care about you. I'm grateful for these things. And an understanding of someone who's my my heroes my parents essentially definitely i can love them and be frustrated and hurt by the things that they didn't know what they were doing also they didn't have the tools or the skill sets that's to be able to teach yeah because

you were able to have empathy and step into their shoes right from their generation what they knew and what they lacked knowing as well that was part of the healing journey for me was losing my anger. I carried anger for my dad for so many years. Anger, anger, hated him, hated him. And I got to the point of like, real true acceptance. Like when you release the energy energy trauma is like negative energy that you carry it's a negative interaction and you you carry the the negative energy as a result of that the more you release it the more you you become right the more you release energy that's not yours the more you you become it enabled me to kind of like have compassion for him like that was you yes you that was your struggle it wasn't about me you know i was affected by it and i was able to

kind of really accept him for who he is as opposed to hold on to the hate because the hate was eaten away at me not Not so much him. He wasn't carrying it. I mean, he was affected by it for sure. So to have the healing allows you to hold the other person for who they are more with acceptance. All the parts of them. All the parts of them.

You may not like certain parts and may need to create boundaries and communicate. This doesn't work for me, mom and dad. That's right. And so I'm going to create a boundary here. I'm not going to show up to these types of functions. Or when you scream or get loud, I'm going to remove myself from the situation or whatever it might be. That's right. You got to step up for you.

Yeah. But you can still love the other parts of them. That's right. 100%. Man, this is fascinating. You know, one of the things that you've been a part of for, I guess, 30 years is the Body Keeps the Score research. Yeah. And you were talking about energy, trauma being this energy that's stored inside of us.

Yes, that's right. Why does the body keep the score? What does that mean? And how do we actually start to release trauma so that the energy gets out of our body and we can become more whole? Yeah. That's one of my, that's probably separate from bringing trauma healing to the world, which is the big mess, the big purpose.

That's not my purpose. That's somebody else's purpose. Okay. I'm just a messenger for that. So there's the big purpose of bringing trauma healing to the world. My purpose is showing people that healing is possible. Like you don't have to carry stuff that isn't yours and doesn't belong to you. You don't. And that's, so some therapies do that and some therapies don't. Okay. So when you acknowledge, okay, I'm carrying stuff that isn't mine, there is a process,

you know, and it was Bessel's book, The Body Keeps the Score, is not coincidental that it's been on the New York Times bestseller list more than any other book because people resonate with it. During the pandemic, people were sitting home making bread and reading Bessel's book. Let me tell you. And because it's resonating with people, the message is real. The way I think about it is trauma is held in the body, thoughts, feelings, physical sensations. So the thoughts, like I'm worthless, I'm no good, I'm a piece of crap. We internalize the view of somebody else. If you're yelled at, you worthless piece of crap, you internalize that, I'm a worthless piece of crap.

So we internalize thoughts, emotions, trauma is overwhelming emotions, and our body's the first recipient of it. Our body holds that stuff. So the body keeps the score. It's such a great title for Bessel because the body does keep the score, but it's in all these different dimensions. Any sensory modality, you can hear something. You could see it. You can feel it.

You can smell it. Our body takes it in sensory. And it could trigger you. And it holds it. Well, we hold it. We hold it, right? And we hold it and then we develop all these protections to keep it away. And what I like to teach in this crossover way is you can release it also.

There is a way to release it. How do you release it of feelings, thoughts, and emotions that have been stored in your body for decades? How do we let those things go that have been so conditioned as a familiar habit that has become who we are almost? We've owned the identity. How do we change decades of an identity and release? Yeah. I have what I call now, there's models of psychotherapy that I've kind of integrated. And now in this new world, I'm like the four Ts to trauma healing. Okay. So I have the four Ts to trauma healing. And I'll explain them to you right now. First, and we talked about the first

one, thank your trauma responses, right? The protective responses. The protective responses, the drinking, the eating, the yelling at your kids, the suicidality, the depression. Thank you. The anxiety. Thank you. Like think about suicide for a minute. Suicide doesn't, suicidal part doesn't want to die. They want to stop the pain. Yes. They want to get rid of the pain. I'm the last responder, they say. If it gets bad enough, I can protect us by stopping the pain. Wow. Okay. So thank your protective responses. Thank your trauma responses. Thank you for trying to help. Would those be called symptoms or just responses? Totally.

If you're in the mental health field, you call them symptoms. Got it. You know, if you're in the coaching world or whatever, you'll call them responses, right? Everybody calls them, but it's the same thing. Okay. All the diagnoses are trauma responses, really. So thank them, acknowledge them. And thank them.

And you know what they say? How do we thank them? Internally. This is like meditation if someone has a thought if someone has a thought of like i want to kill myself right i i'm a worthless piece of crap no one loves me look at all these evidence of how i've been abused and neglected and taken advantage of my entire life no one will care if i die. What's the process? How do I thank that? Tell me more. It's a curiosity.

Tell me more. I know you're doing this for a reason and I know it's helpful. I want to learn more. It's this active listening. When I say thank you, trauma response is- Internal active listening. Yeah. And it can be like close your eyes and go inside, which people hate to do, by the way.

Everybody's on their phones, you know. But you can write. You can sit with yourself for five minutes, right? It's go inside. And it's weird. People like, I'll do this with trauma survivors, people I work with, go inside. Okay, they pop out with it. Like that was two seconds.

Let's do four. with it. Like that was two seconds. Let's do four, you know, and get people. If you just stop, there's so much about stopping and listening, which is scary for people. Stopping and listening, they're like, I just feel nauseous. I'm like, okay, let's be with the nausea because parts can show up in any physical sensation. And I'm just hearing you loser. All right, let's just be with, I hear, let's just be with your loser. Let's just get curious about it. And how long has it been doing this? And how is it trying to help? It says, dad called me a loser. If I call myself a loser, then I can beat him to the punch. Oh, okay.

Let it know you get that. So people start going, wow. That's what they do. They're like, wow. So this thing that I've hated is actually helping? Trying to help. It's trying to help. It's a false sense of helping, right?

Yeah. But it's doing the best it can do. Yes, exactly. So that's the first piece. Thank your trauma responses and appreciate them. Second is trust that you have what you need inside to heal. You don't need gurus. You don't need other people to tell you what's right for you. But we've learned to not listen to our gut. We've learned to not listen to our authentic self. So I want to bring people back to trusting that. That little voice inside that's like, not, I hate you, you're no good. Those are the protectors. The, I knew this relationship wasn't right. I knew there was something wrong here. It's like

learning how to differentiate, listening to your gut, listening to your intuition, reclaiming that relationship with your wisdom. You can feel the difference. Like you're a jerk feels different energy than this isn't right. you're a jerk feels different energy than this isn't right. But you know, as a six, eight, 10 year old, how do you have wisdom that you can tap into? They do. Those kids have wisdom. Raising my kids, like when my husband would lose it for whatever reason, I'm not saying, I'm not blaming him because I certainly have lost it too, but I'm just, when he loses it, they look at me like, that's crazy. Kids know normal behavior. They do. So they have that wisdom too.

The IFS model believes we're born with it. We're born with that wisdom and we learn not to listen because of life. Gotcha. Right? Because of programming or rules or society or... Shut up, shut down, disconnect, disconnect. So we all have it. Let's reconnect with it.

That's the second step. Trust. Trust that you have what's in you. Then there's this transform. This is where the healing comes in, Louis, the transform, what doesn't serve you and doesn't belong to you. There are three steps to this. This is where the real healing of trauma comes in and a lot of this is rooted in the models of psychotherapy that i've trained in and neuroscience knowledge okay memory reconsolidation is a type of neuroscience that rewires our neural networks what are those three steps here you need to witness the experience or share the story and it's not not just the words. It's the part that holds the trauma needs to share what it's holding internally with me or with my therapist or with my partner

or with a friend. You need to speak it out. And it's not just the story. It's the thoughts, the feelings, and the physical sensations. I was terrified. I thought I was going to die. It was humiliating. I had shame. I had insecurity. Sharing it is the first step because the part holds it all by itself.

The body, you mean? The part that holds the trauma. Once it shares it, it's like, oh, I'm not the only one holding this, or I don't have to be the only one that holds it. So the first piece is share the whole experience. Not relive it. Be with it. It's a big difference because we don't want people to relive their trauma. Not to re-traumatize themselves.

No, that's right. It's not about re-traumatizing. It's sharing. Say it again, not be with it? It's be with it, not in it. Okay. So we don't want people to relive it. We want them to share the experience with someone, you know, with a loved one, with a therapist. So, and then this happened and then this happened and it felt like this and my body felt gross or I was all tensed up. Anything else? Anything else? So once the experience is shared, then we want- That's step one. That's step one of transform. Okay. Second is we want a corrective experience.

What does that look like? Neuroscience knowledge tells us we want to disconfirm the trauma. So I'm loved. I'm seen. I'm acknowledged. I'm important. Whatever this trauma is, we want a corrective experience. If someone watching or listening is thinking, that sounds great, Frank, but I can't find evidence that I'm loved.

I can't find evidence that I'm worthy, that I'm thought of, considered. But here's this. When the part says, I'm no good, I'm unworthy, I'm not lovable, either the part says i'm no good i'm unworthy i'm not lovable either the self says i love you like i can see that little boy that was six years old i'm like i love him so the corrective experience can happen internally my adult now can say you should have never gone through that that was horrible. But if you've never learned how to love yourself, how do you tap into that love? That's the trust. We all have it. We all have it. Now, it also can come from somebody else.

It can come from you to me. Like Frank, I've known you for 10 years. I love you. And you're really talking to the wounded part yes you're not talking to me you're talking to the wounded part so it can be somebody you know can be trauma heals in connection yes because trauma is a violation of a relationship say that again trauma is a violation of a relationship is Is it a relationship with others or with self? Both. Both. We disconnect from ourself to survive and other people we disconnect from to protect ourselves. Okay. Wow. Okay. So this corrective experience is a relational repair. It's a relational repair. Even if the person's not there to repair with. Even if the person's not there, it can happen with it can happen with somebody else that's what therapy yes ideally it's supposed to be a therapist saying you know or ideally it's the self like i'm here now i'm an adult i heard what happened you shared

it i love you i care about you and the part receives that yes or from i've had corrective experiences with my kids yeah when they've seen me in a way that i've never been seen before like we have children to grow ourselves also right so you get that corrective experience so once you've shared it once you've had some form of corrective experience and you can feel those moments they're like you've had a couple of them here i've felt it from you when you're going like your body relax you go like oh man when it's something lands that's a corrective experience it hits differently okay and it feels different right so we have when that part that's traumatized shares its experience then it has a corrective experience then it's like I don't need to carry this anymore I got what I needed and somebody else knows it so that's where release is

possible Wow is that step three three step three in the transform then release is possible and and I say to people like let it let the part let it go in any way it wants to and sometimes people's bodies literally shake Sometimes they're like, oh my it's just floating up into the sky. It's just good like the energy It's an energy release. Yeah, I mean for me this is resonating with me because I Feel like I've had a few of those energy releases in big ways over the last 10 11 years. That's right The first time when I opened up about being sexually abused when I was a child by a man that I didn't know

and held onto it for 25 years without anyone knowing and I let it go, it was like this release. Right. A few years ago, three and a half years ago, I was going through a challenging breakup and I remember, and I was doing therapy for remember I was doing therapy for six months with it. Intensive, like five, six hours on a weekend. Experiential, just like diving into all the parts of me that were blocking my ability to love self and create boundaries.

That's right. And I kind of had this heart pain for years, a few years. I was coming and going. That's right. Yeah. In this relationship. Kind of a tension and a ball feeling of pain in my chest. Yeah.

Sometimes palpitations, sometimes it wasn't there. But I remember feeling it in this one conversation with my therapist. Yeah. And something all of a sudden clicked in my body. That's right. And it's like something it it felt like a pop and it like released throughout my body 100 was the weirdest sensation that's right and i haven't felt that pain that's right since that moment of release of corrective experience yeah and sharing it and witnessing it and it's so freeing yeah to let go of trauma. It's amazing. Freeing.

Isn't it? Yeah. Like, because when, and I get chills, like you say that, I could feel it from you and I'm feeling it for myself. I get chills throughout my body because there's nothing like, that's how you become you again. Oh, man. You don't change. You're not becoming somebody else. When you release.

You reclaim yourself. You reclaim yourself in this amazing way you do it's true and i love that you've you've had those moments like serendipitously because of the work you're doing i'm saying there's a method here yes if you do and i'm always watching those three i'm making sure those three are happening even if we're in a conversation so it can happen i want the world to know this can happen for you too it does you don't have to do 33 years of therapy like i did like i'm a therapy lifer right it can happen like this is the method these are the steps that transformation you feel it it's real and you don't carry it anymore you don't carry it anymore it's like you're like walking

it's like people who have taken antidepressants when they kick in, they're like, I'm different. I'm not depressed anymore. Like, it's kind of like that. When you release that trauma, you're like, I'm not in the world the same way anymore. Right? So that happens. Those are those three steps that need to happen for healing to occur, right? The last of my four T's is now take back your power. This is take back your power, become you, you're more you every time you release

something. And this is something I love to talk about, which was totally new for me, Louis, around the death of my dad and the healing that I did with him. I told you earlier about, which was totally new for me, Louis, around the death of my dad and the healing that I did with him. I told you earlier about my mom and this healing moment I had with her when she acknowledged what happened and she didn't protect me. Towards the end of my dad's life, he said something to me, and I'm not going to say what it is because it's like the moment in the book where it's like, oh my God. It it was an incredible moment what a gift for me to have this exchange with him it was the first time i felt love from him wow and i felt love for him holy cow it was incredible first time and this was two years ago okay not everyone gets this moment though no i was such a gift i was like i think that's why i'm here

and i think that's why i've went through this is because many people don't get that you can still release without having the relational correction with the person yes you can you don't have to do it with the person i happen to be lucky enough to do it with him, to have that. And I felt love for him, even after all that he had done to me, I felt love. And it was amazing. Talk about freeing, to feel love for someone who was brutal to you. It was the most freeing thing I ever felt. It's like that didn't even affect me because I can love someone who harmed me is so powerful. It was like a drug to me because I was so beyond it that even what you did doesn't affect me anymore because I can love you despite of that. Is there ever power in not loving someone who hurt you or abused you

as opposed to saying, well, they sexually abused me and they manipulated me and they gaslighted me for decades of my life and they really psychologically messed with me for 20, 30 years. I'm just going to love them, accept them for who they are

and just not stand up for myself. Here's the thing. I love that you're asking that question because it's so controversial. I know you had somebody on recently who has a different view on that. I'm going to be meeting with her soon. We're going to do an event together. Yes. Okay. Because Dr. Rahmani, she just has a different view about this. And I love that we're going to have a conversation about it because differences are really important and useful. Yes. Okay. We don't need to stay in the us and them of things because we'll

never heal that way. We will never. It's the and. It's the and, 100%. So I think there are people that don't want to and they don't have to. It's not a requirement. This piece that I'm talking about is loving And it's not like, oh, no big deal. It's when you've truly healed, you're not carrying it anymore. Yes. Okay? So it feels different. And forgiveness, if I use the F word, forgiveness, because't get it until a couple of years ago, is the forgiveness was me releasing what I was caring about my father.

It's not forgiving his behavior. No, it's not condoning. It was I'm not carrying the stuff about him anymore. Forgiveness was more about me than it was about him. Wow. People still have a choice to do it. Oprah talks about this forgiveness and Tyler Perry talks about this too with all the trauma that he's gone through. So if you choose to, it's more for you. And if you don't want to, you don't have to. Some people are

like, it was too brutal. It was too painful. I'm choosing not to forgive. And I'm like, that's okay. It was too painful. I'm choosing not to forgive. And I'm like, that's okay. It's whatever works for you. I was lucky to have this experience that I never thought I would have to be able to love someone. I never thought I would love somebody who harmed me. And the thing that was even a weirder bonus was I started forgiving myself for all that I had done to my kids, to my husband, to myself. So my loving him, still knowing what he did, not forgetting that,

allowed me to love myself differently. Because who hasn't harmed or been harmed? Right. This is the us and them piece that I have a mission to kind of get rid of. I know that's a big mission. I hear voices. Let me say that. I hear voices a lot. It's like love, compassion, love, connection, unity.

Love, connection, unity. Bring trauma healing to the world. I'm like, shut up. It was like, stop. Unity kept coming up and I didn't want unity to come up. I was like, oh, that's a hard one. The divide of us and them. The message was like unity, so this was the divide is safer

right it's so much easier wouldn't you rather be on one side and blame somebody else of the other so much easier wow but now i'm free because i've forgiven myself for staying too long in relationships right for right guilty of that. Right. But so if you choose to forgive, you release what you're caring about the other person, but it gives you an opportunity to kind of release what you're caring about yourself. I saw this quote of yours. Yes. It said, trauma blocks love. Love heals trauma. Yeah. Trauma activates an internal cascade of reactions that blocks love, connection, and creativity.

And in turn, love has the power to transcend trauma, heal our pain, and reconnect us to our self, capital S, our source, and to each other. How can we, is it possible for us to truly love ourselves and others if we're holding on to traumas? I'm going to say we're not going to use all or nothing and it's all degrees. Okay. Um, I am so much further along in this process than I was 20 years ago. Was I able to do 40% of that 20 years ago? Probably. Can I do 85, 90% now? Yeah. Am I 100%? Probably not ever. Right. So yeah, that statement, like when I hear that, I was like, oh my God, that's so powerful. Like,

thank you for sharing it with me. I kind of feel like it's channeled information, honestly. you for sharing it with me. I kind of feel like it's channeled information, honestly. And I've lived it and I've spent my whole career studying it. So yes, I think that's entirely possible. I do believe it. I believe it wholeheartedly. That's why I'm on this mission. I'm on this mission. And I'm not the only one on this mission. That I'm very clear about. You're on this mission. There's so many. We're coming together in a different way. There's all, all these people are coming out of the woodwork. Like the people in the ivory tower are showing up in general public. We talked about this earlier, you know, the influencers are showing up and coming, you know, these motivational speakers are coming together in this way. Cause I think it's a collective, I think it's a collective

to do this. And I think it's, I really I think it's a collective to do this. And I really do think it's possible. And I'm not doing it alone, tell you that, but I'm one of the people and so are you that are doing this. I think it's totally possible. And I think that's what's going to heal. What do you think it takes for someone to truly love themselves? Is releasing the stuff that blocks that. The trauma blocks love, love heals trauma. Every time I wrote, I wrote Transcending Trauma, my other book during the pandemic. And I'd write, write, write, write, write, go for a run, write, go for a run. I'm like such a runner. And I'd hear trauma blocks love, love heals trauma, trauma blocks love, love heals trauma. I'm like, that is the truth. Because every time I release-

How do you love yourself if you're blocked by trauma? How do you get rid of the trauma? It's this cycle. It's the cycle. It's going through the four T's that I talked about. It's going through that. And each time you release something, you've got more capacity. In the beginning, right?

Each time you release it. You expand your abilities. You expand your ability. And it's like this cumulative thing. It doesn't happen all at once. It's not like a Hollywood moment. It happens cumulatively. And early on when you're super blocked, if you can find some loving connection, because you can help.

It's not your responsibility to heal me, but your loving me helps me heal myself because love is contagious. So if you are in a loving environment, you can access yours and utilize somebody else's, right? So. And just as love is contagious, so is hate. A hundred percent. And anger. Yes, it is. And that's why you gotta really protect your energy yes and your relationship with people yeah and do your best to

shift conversations move away from those conversations that's right and not get caught in that cycle of anger and hate as well that's right it's moments

like life happens in moments and so does trauma healing happen in moments it doesn't happen here's something that you know I've heard people talk about.

It's like, okay, if you've had traumatic experiences and you're a lifelong in therapy and psychiatrist, like you've been in this work for every daily for 30 plus years or whatever, how does someone continue to release without reliving and resharing the traumatic experiences so that it affects them so much? Because some people say, quit reliving it and resharing it all the time. Therapy doesn't work. If you're always in therapy, reliving it, and you're not getting release and freedom, then it must not be working. That's right. So how do we communicate it without being stuck in this? Well, I've been in therapy 10 years. Then why are you still stuck and angry and resentful? That's right.

And there's a lot of bad, there's a lot of therapies that are not trauma healing therapies. I was in, I told you, 11 years, five times a week during my residency. That was a lot, a big amount of therapy. But it was the talking, telling the story without release. Interesting. It's a lot of therapy, not release. I knew all about it. I understood it. I was stronger. You analyzed it. Yeah. I figured it out. I was stronger, but I was still carrying it in my body. Interesting. Yeah. So not all therapies

have those qualities of release. That's why that transform thing I talked about, so important. Now, IFS is not the only therapy that does that. EMDR can do it. Eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. I've heard great things about that, but I've also, I mean, what's the difference between IFS and EMDR? And if you were, if someone is experiencing trauma in their life, what would you recommend first? Here's the thing. So there's sensory motor psychotherapy, there's Peter Levine somatic experiencing, there's a lot of different ABC, you know, everybody's got their initials, IFS, you know, EMDR. They've got their method. They've got their method. There's probably six or eight trauma methods.

Okay. And nobody knows this. When you go to therapy, you don't know. There's trauma methods and those should have a release component. Like psychoanalytic therapy that I was in didn't have at that point a release component. So I processed it without releasing it. Okay. So you weren't getting the full benefit of results. I was better in a lot of ways. I was able to come out, you know, I, you know, they did stuff. My

life got better, but I was still carrying it. You were still holding on to the body was still keeping the score. The body was still keeping the score. A hundred percent. Yes. Interesting. Yeah, it was. So I, I want to teach people that there is a way to do this. And it's not just telling the story. It's not just reliving it over and over again. And a lot of people do that, right? It is, there are these certain qualities. I started this year called the Trauma Institute, okay? And it's an integrative center for bringing all the trauma modalities together,

integratively bringing trauma healing to the next generation of therapists and of the general public. It's a mission for me. It's like, I don't think one model's the right model. Everybody needs different things at different times. So let's pull this resource together. A lot of my friends and colleagues have made these models and I'm like thankful for them to have made them. Thank you, Dick Schwartz, who made IFS. Thank you, Pat Ogden, who made sensory motor psychotherapy. Thank you, Gabor Mate, who makes Compassionate Inquire. Bessel van der Kolk, who brings neuroscience. Dan Siegel, like all of them, amazing things. It's time to put it together in an integrative way and that's

what i hope for the trauma institute what is the the core thesis of ifs yeah and why is that something that you study and and teach so frequently yeah it was i've like i said i was in therapy a long time a lot of different modalities. I did EMDR. I did sensory motor cycle therapy. IFS was different for me first because I grew up in a big Italian family and everything was about the group, never about the individual. Interesting. I'm sure a lot of people can relate to that. Right. And a lot of ethnic groups are like that. Not only Italian. About the group, the culture, and not the individual. The individual doesn't matter.

The group matters. The family matters. So I grew up there. And it was so amazing for IFS to say, go inside. You have self. And you can access that to heal. So it was really powerful for me to reclaim me. So IFS says we all have self-energy, we're born with it, and it has inherent wisdom. We all have parts too, all different parts of us.

How many parts of us do we have? It's, you know, I have a part that likes to run. I have a part that likes to travel. We have a lot of different parts. We have a lot of different parts. And there's positive parts and kind of wounded parts? Yeah. I love that you didn't say negative parts. Because everybody's like, bad parts. There's no bad parts. Dick's book, no bad parts, right? There's no bad parts. We look at the positive intention. So some parts protect, some parts carry pain, right? I have a part that's a therapist. I have a part that, you know, gets really stressed out and anxious, you know? So we... What are the parts that protect? What are they actually doing inside of us?

Well, they're doing these behaviors and symptoms, drinking too much, over-exercising. Overworking. Over, yeah, overworking. Reactive, angry, resentful, protective. And the only reason they take on those extreme roles is because of something overwhelming. Is it a sense of control? Is it a sense of protection? What is the thing?

Control and protection. Yeah. Control and protection. When we say, when we do something obsessive or a particular way that we want to make sure it's done this way and it seems controlling, what is that saying about us? It's saying, what it tells me about us is that I grew up in a controlling environment. In a controlling environment. I grew up in a controlling environment and I internalize control as a way to help. That's what it says. So someone's thinking they're being helpful

by being controlling. The part. It's like the part. Like critic. Let's talk about critics. Who doesn't have an internal critic in some way? It's because you were yelled at or criticized. about critics like who doesn't have an internal critic in some way it's because you were yelled at or criticized and then you're like look how effective that is i was the recipient of that criticism i see how powerful it is and then some part of us says oh i'm going to use that to control the kid in here who keeps crying because if he shuts up then i won't get yelled at wow do you see that so i'll suppress my feelings my emotions i'll do it shut up you idiot shut up you jerk if you shut if you're quiet we won't get yelled at so we use what's in our environment protectively and if we understand that then it's a different relationship with the critic.

Not hate your critic, get rid of it. Don't be critical anymore. Like who's ever stopped drinking because you just said, and for those of you who are old enough, like Nancy Reagan, just say no to drugs. Like it doesn't work. It doesn't work. You know, it's like, no, it's like, oh, where did you learn that? How is it helping?

Oh, okay. I get it. Are you interested in helping in a different way? Right? Would you want to work together here? We can team up and do it differently. Because these parts don't like the way they do things. They were forced to use what was in their environment.

It's just a part of the tools that they know. That they had access to. Yeah, yeah. And when we're young and we come up with tools, like kids aren't good at raising themselves. Okay? But that's what they do. Right? They need to.

Sometimes they raise their parents. Sometimes they raise their parents. Isn't that fascinating? Yep. What happens to someone who is maybe the oldest sibling that has to take care of their mom or father's emotions or lack of control or bad behavior or they need to go work at an early age to support the parent? What happens to that type of person who experiences that in their life? Yeah. So they become a Harvard-trained psychiatrist. That's one of the things they do. Like was such a parentified child oh my goodness i was such a parentified child i took

care of my siblings i took care of my mother i was trying to manage my father you know like so they become therapists they become health care workers like when you learn that you have to caretake as a way of protection, like if I manage- To survive. Then if I manage you and your drinking, then you'll maybe take care of me. Oh, man. But that never happens. It doesn't happen, but it's- You just keep searching for that.

But it's like you're searching for, right? So if I take care of everybody, maybe I'll be loved. Oh, wow. Right. So I become a consummate caretaker. Like, huge, right? We have a lot of caretakers in this world and culture and society. And like ER doctors, like there's so many places where people caretake in an attempt, first of all, to focus on somebody else instead of themselves.

And secondly, in an attempt, you're going to like me and love me and then I'll get what I need. If I take care of you, I might get what I need in return. So intentions are, it sounds good of like, I want to be of service, which is a great thing and a great intention. But when it's, I need to be in service to someone because then maybe i'll get love that's right that's right then you just keep doing you're chasing yeah love 100 that's why it's called to be loved like that was my whole life that's why that title was so perfect if i if i'm of service from self it's not about me it's about a bigger cause i'm here to help from a different place what is self versus what being of service versus trying to get something

parts have an intention of protection and that's the difference there's a difference between I really do love helping people when I have to in order to get worse, it's a different story. Then there's like resentment and frustration. And anger. And then that's when you lose it on somebody. Like, you know, after all, but parents do this to kids. You don't appreciate me for all I've done. You know how much I've done for you.

You know how much I've done for you. Yeah, exactly. I mean, that seems like a common theme for a lot of parents almost be for all parents that's right it's like people can resonate with that where it's like yeah parents were frustrated with me because i didn't listen or i was a rambunctious or i know i was like jumping on the walls half the time that's right and you'll hear you know people say that my parents would say these things like, after all I've done for you, you don't appreciate me. You don't listen to me.

You just take advantage of me. That doesn't seem healthy. It's not. What can parents do to realize, okay, kids are going to be kids. And maybe it's not this perfect world every day where they're like listening to me and quiet and patient and well so how can parents shift their energy to appreciate bringing life into the world as opposed to needing appreciation from a five-year-old right so what ends up happening and um dr becky somebody who i know i don't know if you know. Yeah, I've had her on. I thought you've had her on. She's great. She's so good. Parenting, yeah, yeah.

She's a big IFS-aligned person too. And so her parenting stuff is so solid. I love what she has to say. And a lot of it is parents often get activated about their kids' behavior because of their own stuff of their history. And my message is do your work so you don't say, and I've said it, do you know how much I've done for you? I've said it. My parents said it. And I used to say as a kid, I used to say as a kid, I didn't ask to be born.

Like, that's what I would say to them when they would like shove this appreciation. When I heard myself say it to my kids, I'm like, oh, my God, this is horrible. Like, how painful to do what was done to yourself, you know? But when I looked a little deeper, like, if I behaved the way my kids were behaving, entitled and not appreciative, I would have gotten beaten. So I want to stop their behavior so it doesn't activate my own. To want to beat them or hit them or spank them. Stop doing this because it's too uncomfortable for me because it reminds me of my history.

Wow. Do you see that? And so that's the cycle the parents are in that they're not aware of. So when you start doing this stuff to your kids and everybody does it unfortunately then it's like do your work i have done more healing in my life through my children than anybody else or any other therapist like they have brought this stuff to my attention you know i started becoming my father in the negative ways in the negative the wounded ways the wounded ways and that was that was shot me into therapy for the third time is when i had kids and i started yelling at them and i was like i grew up with this the reason i had kids was to not to give them something else

and here i'm doing it and it was like when what was inside of you that was doing it yeah because when my boys would fight i have two kind of rambunctious boys when they would fight i can remember feeling panic inside because if i yelled and screamed like that i would have gotten beaten so every time they fought my history showed up instead of like Instead of like, they're boys. Come on, guys. Let's behave. When you're not activated by your history, you're like,

hey, you know what? We don't throw toys. If you're upset, use your words. There's a way to react when you're not activated. Yes. Anytime you lose it,

it's about your history. When it's intense, it's yours. I think I heard, maybe it was Gabor Mate that said, if it's hysterical, it's historical. That's exactly right. Yeah, that's exactly right. If it's hysterical, it's historical.

Yes, that's correct. And people don't know that. Because it's like, if you're seeing a situation, two kids running around and hitting each other, stealing something from them, and screaming and yelling, And you're reactive. It's because you're triggered by an event that you haven't faced and processed fully yet from your past. Otherwise it would just be a neutral event. And if it didn't happen to you or if it didn't trigger you, you just say, hey guys, break this

up. What are we doing? It's like, let's get to your room and take a break. People don't know that. And people don't want, they're like, it frustrates me that there's so many parenting, there's so many books about kids' behavior. There's not many books about parents' behavior. Dr. Shefali is another one. She's great. She's also very aligned in this, right? She's great, yeah. You know, she's aligned. Conscious parenting is powerful. Huge. And parents are like, these kids are blah, blah, blah, versus, oh, I've got work to do, unresolved history.

How many parents do you think in America repeat the patterns of their parents unconsciously and have not done the work to create new tools to parent from a conscious way well most of us really i'm sorry most of us i did it i'm it was it drove me crazy to be a trauma expert like i teach this for a living people pay me money and i still did it and it's not it's because awareness does nothing for change really awareness does nothing for change it's not like that not when it's trauma not when it's trauma because it comes up inside of you and it's it takes you over right i'm like like i i do know better i had so much self-loathing every time I lost it with my kids.

Afterwards, like later that night, you're like, what am I doing? Yeah, that's... I'm out of integrity because I'm teaching one thing, but I'm doing the opposite. Oh, it was so painful. That's where I got suicidal in my life. Really? That's the only times I got suicidal was when I did what was done to me. It was like, I would rather be dead than perpetuate this.

I swear, it was so painful. And I couldn't help people all day long because my history wasn't being activated. So you could see it from a separate situation and give the best advice in the world. Yeah. I know what's... I might do appropriate for a living. It's ridiculous. And then yet, I saw myself doing it. It was crazy. When did you start to shift emotionally? It sounds like the body was keeping the score for you when you had children and for those years, and you would do things that were out of integrity with what you wanted your highest self to do. And then you would beat yourself up and self-loathing

and shame and guilt and resentment and all these emotions that don't serve yourself in becoming better. So what was the process as a Harvard-trained psychiatrist and a trauma therapist for 20, 30 years? What was the process for you to get out of depression, suicidal thoughts, and overwhelm to be more of peace and harmony when kids would act out i just it's so i was like i was like you're on rinse and repeat frank like you just you're on rinse and repeat how many years if they're like i just did a keynote recently at the network or i'm like i'm wondering if therapy is the way to go like i've been in for 33 years like maybe it's not the right way but it's more about like this way you get into resilience i have been trying i will never stop trying i think we're here on this earth in human form to have difficult experiences people who like to hear that sorry i think we're not only

here to have difficult we could have loving fun experiences too yeah but i think from a soul level we're here to grow and evolve and if you you i've like the three i have my three r's you repeat it you repress it or you repair it okay so i've been one of these people i don't know why i'm one of these people who's constantly trying to repair, constantly trying to repair, right? And this is what we do with every moment. We have a choice. We repress it. Most of us repress our trauma. We repeat it over and over again, or we repair it, take advantage of those opportunities, right i'm a i'm i know now i know i never knew i was smart because i was criticized a lot i'm a smart person i know that and i still did it

because my history was in me and now i don't like i am so did my kids are 16 and 20 and my son my oldest can yell and scream at me like any 20-year-old can. And I don't react anymore. I don't. How did you learn how to not react, but also not get, you know, letting a boundary cross over? Like, you can't talk to me that way. I'm going to walk out of this room right now. That is really not okay.

I'm not going to tolerate this. And I'm not going to engage with you when you're like this. I couldn't do that before. How did you learn to not let it boil inside of you and think, this ungrateful child I've given my life to? I didn't learn it. I healed it. That's what I did. I tried to learn it.

I tried to learn it. There's a difference between analytical understanding versus physical wisdom. That's right. The physical wisdom is releasing the trauma the physical wisdom i don't have to try hard anymore right it's not in me the trauma is not in me i used to have this crazy startle my kids we'd have a trampoline in the backyard one would jump on me from behind and i'd freak out because of my startle when i got triggered like if someone was yeah it was like like this and i would say to them like hey remember papa said he was hurt when he was younger that's why he reacts this way

like i didn't want them to take responsibility for my reaction but i still had it but you didn't own it and release it i couldn't i didn't really at that point i didn't release it you know now i don't hold startle so much anymore because i it was physical it was a physical abuse i worked on early on and i released it and now i i don't hold the startle it's funny we watched stranger things with my youngest son he loves stranger things it's such a trauma talk about trauma his. It's very dark. It's traumatizing. And my husband's jumping like a Mexican jumping mean, and I wasn't. I'm like, I don't have jump scares anymore like I used to because I released them.

So it's like when you release it, you don't get activated by it anymore. Wow. So that's the point. Like, I'm not done. I'm not done i'm not done but i am i am so much more myself than i've ever been in my life and i could tolerate my feelings other people's feelings so much more than i ever am i perfect at it hell no but every layer that you release you're more you yeah and you're expanding your capacity for uncomfortable emotions yes you're expanding the ability to sit with them to witness them without being wounded

by these yes emotions or reactions or or overwhelming life experiences i told you with my mom i'm like look mom if you decide never to see me again because this is too painful for you, I'll handle that. I was like, that's right. It's not what I want. No, it's not what I want. But I can tolerate that because I'm choosing me and I deserve to be listened to, prioritized, and i love myself yes enough my i mean i feel like there's a lot of

people watching and listening that have probably experienced some type of challenge in family or relationships or whatever it might be where they have love and also frustration and hate yes with someone in their life right that's right family member uncle, a father, whatever, my grandparent, whatever it might be. We all do. And my intention is never to break people up. Right. To get them to leave a relationship or end or create a divorce. That's never my intention. Yeah.

Because I believe it is powerful to be family and connected, even if there's discomfort or frustration or someone doesn't approve of your life choices or whatever it might be. So how can people not say, screw you, you don't understand me, you frustrate me, so I'm going to tell you that this doesn't work for me anymore. I'm going to divorce you in this relationship, family member, friend, whatever it is. doesn't work for me anymore i'm gonna divorce you in this relationship family member friend whatever it is how can they cautiously communicate in a loving appreciative way yes and create a boundary if someone doesn't want to receive that so or they're not kicking them out of their life forever so the screw you or kicking them out of your life forever is a protector that's a protective response it's a wounded response it's i'm wounded so i'm gonna do do this to you to protect myself okay so and we do that all the time and that is a reactivity or the shutting down and disconnecting the ghosting people and never calling back you

know like those are those are setting a boundary from a protector to protect our pain, which is very different than what I did with my mom. I'm like, I love you. I was setting a boundary from self. I love you. I care about you. I want you in my life. I'll do anything I can to help you. If you can't join me for whatever reason, that's up to you. And I will deal with the consequences of that. But I

love myself and I'm choosing me over disconnection to make you feel better. Okay. So that's coming from a different place. So we set boundaries from a place of love. I organized a funeral for my dad because i wanted to i wanted to give him a good send-off you know and it was from a place of love you know you could say no from a place of love like this doesn't work so i'm doing my kids now it's like that doesn't work for me i'm sorry i don't want to be yelled at you're angry i'm open to hearing about it but not this way yes when you're ready, let's talk. You can calm down or you can talk. Yeah. Yeah. So it's from where it comes from.

So the boundary is different when it's reactive or shut down because that's protective versus when it's coming from a place of love. Wow. You are the expert on trauma. One of the experts on trauma in the world today. It seems like a lot of people are oversharing their traumas online, right? Before they've actually gone through the four-step process and done the three things of transforming their traumas. That's right. And it seems like this trauma dumping is happening without a processing privately or with a professional first. What are your thoughts on people sharing their traumas online?

And should people share things that they've struggled with online? Is there a right time to do it? Or are people oversharing too much? Yeah, it's a great... That's the downside with everybody joining up to try to help. When we all come together to try and help, not everybody's doing it from the healthiest place. Right? So that's one of the downsides.

What I say to people, and even when, if you want to confront somebody who's harmed you, confront a perpetrator in any form, heal first, confront second. Heal first, confront second. Because typically what you do once you heal, you see the wound in your perpetrator. That's what typically ends up happening. Yeah. And you can, I mean, it's hard to hear this if you haven't healed. You can see the compassion for the complexity of what that person was doing. It doesn't mean you agree or say they're okay. No, you don't agree or condone, but you can see it.

Like my dad is like, he was a wounded person. He had limitations. I could see that now. And the little boy inside of me was the recipient of someone else's actions. And this is not okay. And it hurt me. And it conditioned me for many years of my life.

And it ruined parts of me. And there was anger and wounds that he put me through this conversion therapy and these things. And it caused all this pain in my life. But if you can step back and look at it,

you can still see, at least I know where it's coming from. And I don't take responsibility for it anymore. I don't hate myself about it anymore. I don't even hate him about it. It was what was happening. I wouldn't be sitting across from you right now if it wasn't for him. Wow.

I wouldn't be. You wouldn't care about this work. I wouldn't be a trauma expert. Yeah. I wouldn't be helping people. So I have't be. You wouldn't care about this work. I wouldn't be a trauma expert. Yeah. I wouldn't be helping people. So I have gratitude now. I mean, this is a long time. This is a long time.

So I'm not, I don't want people to feel bad about themselves if ever we're all at different stages. I've been, I'm 60 years old. I've been doing this since. You're 60? I'm 60 years old. How is that possible? You look like 40, man.

That's because of healing. That's what I tell people. They're like, get a skincare line, Frank. I'm like, no, it's not skincare. It's releasing trauma. Wow. It's releasing trauma. I think I look younger the more I release. I think we all do, honestly. Because you feel lighter. I'm not carrying stuff. I'm not carrying it anymore, right? So yes, it's possible for people. Yes, you can do it. I don't want people to feel bad the trauma dumping

is sharing before you've healed and you're gonna and people and people get a lot of attention they get a lot of like validation and then they keep doing it from a wounded place yes it's it increases the us them mentality that's the thing that i'm like ah you're all good and we're all bad like you know but this early premature trauma dumping doesn't really help now i'm trying to create i'm trying as i move out of therapy therapy is great don't get me wrong it's not enough to heal the world there's limited resources we don't have enough therapists. So I'm trying to bring this to the general public so that people, there are safe ways for people to do that. We're creating this part of what the Trauma Institute is trying to create ways if you can't afford it, you don't have those resources, that there might be ways to do that. I'm really

working hard on that. But trauma dumping is not helping even though a part gets heard it does it's not done safely yes it's not done with permission if you trauma dump all parts of you don't agree to share the internal parts of the internal parts i say is everybody okay with everyone in alignment with this? Is everyone in alignment? We're just the wounded part of you. Right. Then you share from a different place when everyone's aligned.

So I'm mixed about it. Like, yeah, there's too many people showing up, doing it, I don't want to say the wrong way, doing it in an uninformed way. That's re-traumatizing. Wow, that's re-traumatizing. It's re-traumatizing. When you relive something, we know this from neuroscience, reliving reinforces the trauma neural network. Being with it is the space to allow the transformation stuff to occur. What's the difference between reliving it and being with it? Yes. What is that?

I'll give you an example. Like, I'm so sick and tired of you. You do this to me over and over again. That's in it. Okay. That's in it. Right. And you could feel, can't you feel the energy?

Yeah. And it's like, it's like all of me feels this about all of you and i'm all i'm going to always do that yes i'm going to get all i'm not going to get thanks for sharing frank i'm going to get a defensive response back yes you that's your natural instinct i say a part of me was so upset by what you did the other day. That really hurt me when you said that. Then you're like, oh, so he doesn't hate me. I'm not all bad. I didn't ruin his life. You're like, oh, that thing I did was harmful to him. I get that. You're much more likely to say, I get it. I'm sorry about that. Here's what was going on for me, right? So that's the being in it. It's so like encompassing and it, and it's

not effective. It never works. Nobody's like, thanks for sharing when we're in it. Wow. And so it's the being with. Is it possible for someone to heal without a therapist, a priest, a psychiatrist who's actually helping them release their trauma? That's what I'm working on. I'm not 100% certain I want to do this. There's other people working on it, as we mentioned. I want to kind of create a safe way to do this because there's peer support things that are helpful to a point. One of the things I want to teach people is like, when can you do it on your own? And when do you need to get extra support? Right? When you're able to be with it, you can do more. When you start slipping in it, you've lost perspective. So that's one of the

guidelines. I did a course recently with a writer who writes memoirs, also Alyssa Rankin. I know Alyssa. Yeah. You know Alyssa? Right to Heal. Right to Heal. We just did a course and we're trying to teach people. And I did like, we set up this structure and guidelines of how to write from the part, how to write a love letter to the part. It's interesting. So we're working on different ways. I feel like we're working on how do I heal? Because I know there's a lot of people out there who don't have these resources, and there's a lot of trauma. So I'm really working on it, and I want us to collectively work on it, right,

to bring this to people so that if you can't, you know when you need to get help or how to get help. And I don't know, you talked about these moments in your life. Like with my husband, I had so many corrective experiences with him. Like that's been a very healing relationship. You know, so we can heal in relationship under the right circumstances that are not therapeutic. Yeah. Too, right? You know what I mean? in relationship under the right circumstances that are not therapeutic yeah too right you know what i mean from sometimes friendships are like i have friends that are just like can be so vulnerable

too and it feels so good i don't have a ton of them but we can heal in relationship it's powerful yeah i wanted to ask you about drugs with mental health or trauma which I was going to say, which drugs are you talking about? There's a lot of them. Yeah. I do my best to come from an open mind when it comes to, I guess, prescription drugs with someone dealing with mental health, trauma, depression, all these different things. Yep. depression all these different things yep but sometimes i feel like people bypass the work first yep to get a relief of i'm overwhelmed i'm stressed i'm mentally struggling i'm depressed i'm suicidal thinking yes give me a drug to feel better 100 what are your thoughts on this because you've prescribed this as a psychiatrist to patients and clients before.

Do you feel like too many people are quickly jumping to prescription drugs to heal a symptom versus turning around and facing themselves, doing the process you talked about, and actually going through the pain, which feels like you're going to die sometimes. Yes.

It feels life-threatening when you face the wounds. It is horrendous. So I understand it is probably the hardest work you'll ever do. That's right. But what are the complications of going from prescription, depression, anti-depression drugs first before working through the pain emotionally. Yeah. So I'm not an anti-drug person and I'm not a drug first person. Uh-huh.

Right. I used to do a lot of psychopharmacology lectures. There's neurobiological, I teach about the neurobiology of PTSD and dissociation. And when you're in hyper aroused PTSD, you have low serotonin, you have low GABA, high cortisol, high norepinephrine. There's a real bio, I mean, I can, I teach this stuff in my sleep. So there's real biological dysregulation. So when you have PTSD, you can benefit from increasing your serotonin or decreasing your norepinephrine or dopamine. There are also natural ways to do that, right? There's natural ways to do it.

And the drugs aren't wrong at all if they're used appropriately. I think of medications as therapy enhancers. That's the way I think of them. When somebody can't be with because they're too flooded, use the meds to help lower the intensity so you can be with. Meds don't do the work. Meds do not do the work. We can have a whole nother episode on psychedelics at another time because there's a whole world of the psychedelics, MDMA, ketamine, all those drugs. I'm steeped in that world too because people are rushing to those. I get so worried about that.

I know. I get worried. And then they're like, I'm healed. And then three weeks later, they're like, I'm going to break down again. Well, it doesn't work. And I have very good friends who are very thoughtful trauma therapists who are doing amazing work with psychedelics, too. So they're enhancers. And if you have enough knowledge to know when it's like, when do you need therapy?

When can you do the work on your own? When would medications benefit you? And when are you using them as a replacement like both are true do you know what i mean i there's a lot of people that are like these hippie anti-drug people i'm like that's that's ignoring science and you know i'm i got pgsd took a bill like that's ignoring reality right you know both both extremes are i mean harmful i come yeah again i try to have an open mind about i can hear your energy though i feel it but and oh good because we live in the world of ans here yes and i also yeah worry about external that's right chemicals influencing

internal the internal pharmacy that we naturally have just like you said the wisdom is within us at birth and five yeah we have to tap into it right we've got to shut up the clutter and you know the chaos and all these things i get it it's like how do we know that medication also won't harm our chemistry in the future if we do too much of it we don't know that shift of us needing it to then be self-regulated it's that's my worry in a world of ans it's a big deal with the anti-add meds for example the add meds are very complicated especially from childhood as we're developing our brains. Exactly. So it's very complicated. You're bringing up something that's important for people to pay attention to.

And let's be thoughtful about it. Like I used them at one point in my healing. I couldn't do the work. I couldn't do the work. That makes sense. I couldn't. I was so, I was depressed. I was taken over by it.

The therapy wasn't helpful because i didn't i i needed and i did it for probably two years maybe is what i did and it helped me then you got off of it i got off of it it helped me do the work yeah it helped me do the work like if you can't do the work it can help you versus use it instead of doing the work no No. Yeah, yeah. If you're willing to do it and say, okay, I'm intensely doing the work now. Yes. Yeah. And it's a both and.

Yeah. Then it's like, okay. Yeah. If I'm unable to do the work and I've tried and tried and done all these different things and it's not working. Then try it.

And try it. But also do the work with it, right? Don't just take the med. It's not a replacer. Ah, that's good. It's not a replacer. It's an enhancer of the work that's good that's the way i think about philosophy you know yeah that's great and to be

really thoughtful about the long-term effects of these medicines i think it's important um because there is a culture like let's do everything quickly there's such a culture in that or put a band-aid on it or just give it a relief yes we're so in like self our technology has made us so instantaneous some of the pill stuff folds right into that you know what i mean and like i'd rather do an mdma session or a mushroom session so i don't have to feel good and i'm like gone into la la land you know so i don't have to- And feel good at the moment. And I'm like gone into la-la land, so I don't have to do the work. So there's a bypass. We call that bypass.

Like a lot of people use meds. A lot of people use meditation as bypass or spirituality as bypass. Let me get to a higher place and ignore my trauma. There's a lot of bypass in spirituality. There's a lot of bypass in medication. There's a lot of bypass in medication. I'm a very spiritual person. It can really enhance the work, but it can also be bypassed. So can medicines. Wow. If someone knows that they have blocks, they have wounds,

they have pain, they have resentments, anger inside of them. And they also know that, man, this might take months or years to process and actually face. And I've got so much at work and my family, I've got to show up and like hold the ship together. Like I can't go through this work right now because it's going to be so painful. It's going to take so much of my energy, my time. I'm not going to be able to be there for my husband or my wife or my kids and my work. I'm going to be in like a breakdown mode. Yes. What would you say to those individuals on what's available on the other side? And is it ever a wrong time to start the work? Yeah, it's a great question. And I face this a lot with a lot of people. I have to tell you, it is, I can feel it as we're talking. It is really painful. It is difficult to go through this. I'm on the other side. Yes. And my life is better than it's ever been. I am doing more things

than I would have never in a million years thought I would be able to live this kind of life. So the benefits are enormous when we are clean and clear and truly ourselves. The benefits are endless for all of us in different ways. So not everybody wants to, has the resources to do the work to get there. And I say that's a choice. I really say that's a choice. Most people can't slip through life without getting stopped up by it. It's the third divorce. It's the third kid that I can't afford that I shouldn't have had. It's the job that I keep failing at or another boss who hates me that I got fired for, right?

So what I would say to people is, how is your life? And is it where you want it to be? and is it where you want it to be? And if not, which pieces do you want to change when? This does not have to be done in the grueling all at once kind of way. Out here in LA, as I'm working more with people, it's fascinating that a lot of people who are in this industry are terrified to do the work because they are afraid they're going to lose their careers over it. Interesting. If I, and I've met a lot of people who have significant trauma. You don't play somebody else for a livelihood without needing to get away from something. I'm not saying every actor has trauma. I'm not saying that. I'm saying I've worked with people who are very reluctant because there's fear that they're going to lose what they do have if they do the work. I'll lose my family. I'll lose this. So what I say is take it one step at a time. Like, where are you unhappy? What do you want to change? And then do the work around that piece do it a little bit at a

time it doesn't have to be like i'm not everybody needs to be in therapy for 33 years sorry that's i don't recommend that for everybody there's a lot of money and time consuming i'm grateful but i have a purpose in it right so do what do it in phases and if it gets too hard, really stop. There's timing. I had a piece. I had my oldest son and my youngest son. They're four years and a day apart. And my youngest is on the spectrum.

And he was a very challenging kid with many, many medical problems. And I couldn't, I wasn't good. I was too overwhelmed in my life to do deep healing work then. During that time. I couldn't do it then. I was barely keeping afloat, right? So it's like, you got to balance where you want to be, where you are, and what kind of resource, energy and monetarily, do you have when. It's kind of a long life and different people do different work at different times. You know what I mean? And I can say this now at 60, like, oh, you're only 30. You're at 30. You've got a long way to go. It's okay. Do a piece of work now.

I did a piece of work, got into a great relationship with a guy. I didn't repeat anything anymore. I was like, I'm not in repeat mode. I found a good relationship. And then it was years later when we had kids that stuff came up at a different layer, so I went back. Do you know what I mean? So it doesn't have to be all at once. Interesting. back. Do you know what I mean? So it doesn't have to be all at once. Interesting. And what would you say is the number one emotion that blocks us from peace, harmony, and ultimate happiness?

Shame. I think it's shame. Like shame is so toxic and shame is usually the result of relational trauma. Really? When does shame occur? I write about this. It can happen. Brene Brown talks about shame in a way that I love also. I write about shame from a trauma, a relational trauma perspective. And there's two shame cycles that I talk about within trauma, within relational trauma. One is when you're verbally or physically abused. You worthless piece of shit. Okay.

You internalize, I'm a worthless piece of shit. So you have a part that holds shame. Shame is not I did something wrong. Shame is I am bad. So when there's an external shamer, we develop an internal shamer and an internal shamed. Wow. Okay. You worthless piece of shit. If you behave, we won't get in trouble. So when you're critically abused, verbally abused, or externally shamed, you have a shame wound. I'm bad. I'm no good. Is that sexual abuse too?

Sexual abuse can, yeah. I would say sexual abuse too. It's interesting. I just feel that so powerfully. Like it adds another dimension to it. Like I am, it's like the vile, worthless. It adds another layer of shame. You can relate from your own history, right?

So it's, yeah, I would say it's another depth. Another layer. Another layer of I am horrible, I would say it's another depth. Another layer. Another layer of I am horrible, I am bad. That's one shame cycle that can be healed. Okay? And that's the wound is I am no good. It takes a long time to heal shame wounds. They can be healed, but it takes a long time.

It's such a physiologically powerful emotion. And it's so reflexive and reactive, right? Instantaneous. That's probably why you had this kind of reaction when your kids would jump on your back. You're like, ah. It's so reflexive. The other shame wound comes from neglect. And that could be big T neglect or little T neglect, right?

I am so bad that my parent doesn't even care. I'm so bad that I'm not worth food or clothing or a hug. Or love or affection. Or love or affection. So when it's neglect, it's, and I call this one the hyper aroused, you yelling and screaming. This one's the hypo aroused numb detached disconnected and then you develop an internal shamer and or disconnector like you those are the people are disconnected from themselves because they've learned that

disconnection is a way of being in the world. See? So those are two such shame cycles that I work with in relational trauma. All different versions over and over again. How is someone who is disconnected or analytical and not in their body and connected to their heart... Yes. ...based on conditionings of neglect and shame... Yep. on conditionings of neglect and shame yep how does someone like that learn to heat process and heal so they are fully in their body and in their heart yeah and connected to themselves and the world

that was so when you the i i had the smart intellectual protector in a big way i'm gonna know it all i you don't get to harvard like i was like yeah like and i was who i was your identity who i was i am smart and it was you know intellect fills a void intellect fills the void the shame void it's like really like and those parts if i if i feel worthless then this will help me not feel i'm gonna i'm gonna fill the space i'm gonna figure it out i'm gonna understand and i'm gonna solve the problem right and those parts have a very hard time stepping back if i step back there's nothing. If I don't lead with my intellect or showcase my abilities or skills. I'm nothing. I'm nothing.

Oh, my God. Right? Wow. And it's so powerful. So those take a long time to work with those. And I remember the moment that I wasn't fully identified with that part. Really? that that I wasn't like fully identified with that part it's like it was it was a like it was like one of these like identity crises it's like who am I who am I if I'm not smart you know like

then it was where I was like oh you're funny and oh you like this, I started seeing the other dimensions, but for the longest time, it was like, I write about this in the book. I used to run home with A's on my report card, hoping my dad will love me. Like, this is, he's going to love me now. The gold stars on the report card, you know? Perfect. Yeah. GPA.

Top of the class. So I was driven for achievement to get get love did he ever acknowledge you or love you when you had a's it didn't he acknowledged we got a dollar for every a back in the day okay we got a dollar for every okay so but it didn't get me what i wanted it didn't get me love really it didn't get me love you know so you got rewarded in monetary, but not emotional or affectionate ways. Exactly. So it took those people that are all left-brained. How does someone learn how to fully love and love themselves and give themselves affection when their parents didn't have the tools or wasn't in their DNA to touch, hug, kiss, and love on their kids. And when I went to

Japan last year, I saw this and I heard this from many people that said just the culture, I'm sure some people didn't do this, but the culture in general just wasn't affectionate with kids. And it's very academic driven, achievement driven type of culture. Again, not all parents were this way, but it seems like this was the culture. And they grew up not able to express their emotions as fully based because of that. That's right. So if someone was raised without affection from their parents, love, attention, how do they learn to give themselves affection and be comfortable receiving from others when they never received from their parents? Yes. It's a great question because

I'm going to say it's possible. I do believe it's possible. And it's undoing a lot of family legacy, cultural trauma, transgenerational trauma. Okay. So there's a lot that comes up in transgenerational trauma around that. Dr. Marielle Bouquet talks about. Yes. Yes. Generational trauma. That's exactly right. It's huge.

We all grow up in some form of a family that we've internalized the messages through ethnicity, through the family culture, through, you know, so we internalize that stuff. That's also not our energy. It's energy we absorb because of the family we're in. Gosh. Okay? So once you differentiate who you are from what you were subjected to, who you are from what you were subjected to, who you are from what you were subjected to, or what

family you were born into, what's yours, what isn't yours, right? And this idea we all have love within us. Yes. We all have it. So even if you're programmed not to, we all have it. We all have it. Man. Even if you're programmed not to, we all have it. We all have it. Man.

Your book, To Be Loved, A Story of Truth, Trauma, and Transformation by Frank Anderson is a powerful story about just kind of the life you've been through and the different levels of traumas and challenges and therapies and experiences is a beautiful story. I want people to get this because I think a lot of people can relate in some way to their own life about what they've experienced, what they've gone through, and how to find hope and healing no matter how much trauma you've experienced, what type of disconnection you've had, how you've been abused, abandoned, forgotten, dismissed. That's right. In your uniqueness in the world. And how to love and acknowledge people, even if they've treated you poorly as parents, and see them from a compassionate place

without condoning their behaviors and actions toward you as a child. One of the exercises I have experienced that is probably one of the most healing for me, as I had been doing the work for a while was revisiting. I'm getting chills just thinking about it was revisiting the five-year-old in front of me and having a beautiful conversation and experience with my five-year-old self and bring him into my heart and reconnecting with that wounded boy. That's right. And as an adult self, being able to hug and give him what he needed and also thank him

for going through the challenge and the struggle, for facing these confusing times as a child without the tools and saying, thank you for getting us here. Right. I got your back now. That's right. And I can take us to the next place. 100%. Thank you for enduring this confusing, painful life. Yeah.

You shouldn't have had to experience this. That's right. yeah you shouldn't have had to experience this that's right i acknowledge you for not hurting yourself more than you did not beating yourself up more than you did and for doing your best that's right i love you i accept you and i appreciate you and and i and i got you 100 one of the most beautiful right exercises that i have have done for all the parts of myself. That's right. That's the transformation thing I was talking about. It's a beautiful example of that.

It is. Yeah. And I think your book gives us kind of this journey of how we can do this with ourselves and different parts of ourselves and just understands the complexity of the human experience. Because it's, in my opinion, the most beautiful experience, but it can also be the most challenging, confusing experience at the same time. Right. Because we live in a world of ands.

Yep. I love that. People can get the book right now, To Be Loved. Also, your website, frankandersonmd.com. You're also on social media more now. Yeah. Frank Anderson MD. Uh, if they just Google that, they'll find all of your social media links. Um, you're also working on the trauma Institute, which people can find as well on your website and learn more about how they can use the tools and training and courses to support them on their own journey if they can't afford therapy at this

moment or they're not ready for it or they want to do it on their own to get started and dabble in it. So I highly recommend that. You've been in this work with the leaders of psychiatry, been in this work with the leaders of psychiatry, psychology, therapy, trauma for decades in this work. And we studied with, worked with, and know all of the top experts. You're constantly learning. So this book will be a great resource for anyone looking to reclaim themselves and to feel fully loved and healed in their journey. So I'm so grateful that you're here, and I acknowledge you for the pain you have endured and the suffering that you have experienced throughout different seasons of your life

and the gift you give all of us by saying, this pain, I'm going to create meaning from this pain and trauma and suffering. And I'm going to find out why this is happening so I can serve people. So they don't have to experience this pain and suffering as well. So I want to acknowledge you for the gift of continuing your journey of growth, your gift of finding ways to bring academic research and science to the masses so that we can understand the complicated. And just acknowledge you, Frank, for your big heart and tapping into your heart and getting out of your head. You're a beautiful human being.

Thank you. Two final questions I have for you. This is called the three truths question. So it's a hypothetical scenario. Imagine you get to live as long as you want in this world, but it's your last day. You could be as old as you want. Science has gotten you to 100 plus something years old. You still have the same skin at 100, so you look 30. But for whatever reason, it's the last day for you, hypothetically.

You get to create everything you want to witness experience everything you want from this moment until then but for whatever reason in this hypothetical question yes all of your content is gone from the world we don't have access to your book this conversation course anything you create for whatever reason it's gone but on the last day you get to leave behind three lessons from all of your life's experience. And this is all we would have to remember and be reminded of.

And I call it the three truths question. What were those three truths that you think everyone needs to know that you would share? So we all have love in us, even our enemies. We all have trauma that can be healed. And really, nothing else is more important than love and connection. and really nothing else is more important than love and connection. Like it's interesting when you were saying that,

part of me instantly flashed to my kids and then my husband and then my siblings, right? It's like the people that are important to me, right? And then you're like, oh, your books and information are gone. The other piece was like, but wait a minute, like I want to get this message of trauma blocks love love heals trauma to the world you know and so i'm i would say those the three things encapsulate that the importance of love and connection the fact that we all have it in us and it can be healed final question frank what's your definition of greatness love and kindness honestly love and

kindness there you go frank thanks so much for being here appreciate you i hope today's episode inspired you on your journey towards greatness make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a rundown of today's show with all the important links and if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me, as well as ad free listening experience, make sure to subscribe to our greatness plus channel on Apple podcast. If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend over on social media or text a friend, leave us a review over on Apple podcast, and let me know what you learned over on our social media channels at Lewis house. I really love hearing the feedback from you and it helps us continue to make the show better. And if you want more inspiration from our world-class guests

and content to learn how to improve the quality of your life, then make sure to sign up for the Greatness Newsletter and get it delivered right to your inbox over at greatness.com slash newsletter. And if no one has told you today, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.