The School of Greatness - “We Had to Create a Second Marriage” How to Heal a Relationship After Infidelity & Addiction | Carl Lentz

Episode Date: August 2, 2024

Have you saved your seats at Summit of Greatness 2024 yet?! Get them before they sell out at lewishowes.com/ticketsFor those familiar with Carl Lentz’s history, you know about the scandal that led to his dismissal from Hillsong Church a few years ago. If you’re wondering why I chose to feature him on an episode of The School of Greatness, I want to assure you that my goal isn’t to place him on a pedestal. Instead, I want to illuminate the very real journey of finding healing after failure and heartbreak. This conversation will be approached with care and transparency because I know many of you have faced similar challenges or are still in the process of healing from something similar. I hope you’ll join us for this important discussion.In this episode you will learnThe difference between shame and guilt, and how each impacts personal growth.Carl Lentz's personal experience with infidelity and its consequences on his life and career.The process of rebuilding trust and intimacy in a marriage after betrayal.The importance of personal healing and self-awareness in overcoming past traumas.How to maintain integrity and transparency in leadership roles.For more information go to www.lewishowes.com/1649For more Greatness text PODCAST to [phone]More SOG episodes we think you’ll love:Eckhart Tolle – https://link.chtbl.com/1463-podRhonda Byrne – https://link.chtbl.com/1525-podJohn Maxwell – https://link.chtbl.com/1501-pod

I definitely know what it's like to be cloaked in shame and almost feel like you're suffocating. Shame is about what other people are thinking about you. It's external. There is such thing as healthy guilt where you realize I'm wrong and I feel terrible about it and it's going forward. I had to really find that avenue quick because shame takes you backwards and conviction is I was wrong and this is what I'm going to do to make amends. Carl Lentz was once one of the most popular preachers in America. Carl Lentz is the celebrity pastor whose recent downfall has triggered a wave of scandals for the church. Carl Lentz.

You know, I lied to a lot of people. I've had to stomach that and will for the rest of my life. People often ask, how did it get so bad? Before you lie to anybody else, you lie to yourself. There's a lot of people watching that have had a bad chapter, maybe even a bad book. Greatest news on earth. At any time, you can change your story.

Only you control that. Over half of marriages end due to infidelity. When I would get close to her for the first two or three months, the body would shake. She would feel safe physically with you. That's a horrible place to put your life. You talk about shame. She just forgave me last year, and I asked her to pray for me.

Man, I haven't talked about this. I should have saved this for my own podcast. Hey, everyone. This is Lewis Howes, and I am so excited to invite you to the Summit of Greatness 2024 happening at the iconic Shrine Auditorium in Los Angeles, California. This is more than just an event. It's a powerful experience designed to ignite your passion, boost your growth, and connect you with a community of other inspiring achievers. Join us Friday, September 13th and Saturday, September 14th for two days packed with inspiration and transformation from some of the most incredible speakers on the planet.

Don't miss out on this chance to elevate your life, unlock your potential, and be part of something truly special. Make sure to get your tickets right now and step into greatness with us at the Summit of Greatness 2024. Head over to lewishouse.com slash tickets and get your tickets today, and I will see you there. Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness. Excited about our guest.

We have Carl Lentz in the house. And Carl, first off, I want to say I'm glad you're alive. Thank you. Because I know that there was a season of life where you wanted to commit suicide. And we're in a place of ending it all because of the massive breakdown that happened. You've talked about this on your own podcast that you started to talk about. A lot of secrets, scandal, a lot of pain and suffering that you experienced

and that others experienced with your life. And my first question is, first off, I'm grateful you are alive and you're here. Thank you, brother. Thank you. And my first question is, with the secrets, first off, I'm grateful you are alive and you're here. Thank you, brother. Thank you. And my first question is with the secrets, the scandal, the suffering that you've talked about, what was the biggest shame that you lived with? And what is the shame that you still have today, if there is any? I'm completely healed. Great question. I think

the biggest shame I think would have been for sure lying to my wife. And it's so bad where I look back now after, you know, I've done a lot of work as you have. So you learn a lot of ways to track your own patterns and behaviors. And towards the end of our time in New York, I had a really tough time being in proximity to her. And I now know it's time in New York, I had a really tough time being in proximity to her. And I now know it's because I couldn't look her in the eye. I just hated the lies I was caught up in. I just didn't know what to do. And I think the shame of that took me a really long time to get through. And as you know, with shame, it's not like it's something that goes away forever, but for me, I've learned I can be on top of it better than other times. So

for me, I've moved away from the shame of a lot of it, but I remember it and I treat it with reverence in such a way where I'm never going to be like, oh, that didn't happen. No, it happened. And God's been faithful and he's been kind and he's been gracious. And thankfully that shame doesn't have to have a hold on me. And there's a lot of people, as you know, that deal with shame. So now when I do talk to people, they're not doubting whether I get it or not. Maybe before, if someone were to sit down with a pastor, I don't know if you can relate. I definitely know what it's like to be cloaked in shame and almost feel like you're suffocating. And I don't know if you've ever heard this

differential, but someone told me shame is discouragement about what other people are thinking about you. It's external. That's one definition of it. And once you can get over that and guilt, there is such thing as healthy guilt where you realize I'm wrong and I feel terrible about it and it's going forward. I had to really find that avenue quick because shame takes you backwards and it suffocates. And conviction is I was wrong. This is what I did. And this is what I'm going to do to make amends. There's power in that. So I've done that dance for years and doing my best to stay on this side of the tracks where I'm convicted to be a better man. Sure. That's cool, man. And for those that don't know who you are, who maybe aren't in the Christian communities or in the church world, Yeah. Can you give a brief context of who you were?

Yeah. Then, before the massive scandal and breakdown and fallout of you being a pastor at a church and what happened? Again, you don't have to go into massive details, but kind of a brief context of what happened and to where you are now. So we, if you're not familiar with the church world, we were a non-denominational church that had a global reach. And our music at Hillsong Church has been world-renowned,

really awesome. And in many respects, Hillsong gave people a different way to do church. Like, you're never going to walk into a Hillsong Church and be like, this is, you know, this is boring or this is weird. It was something that made sense to the regular person. That's why I fell in love with it. And in New York, we kind of took that to a very New York place because I had a boss, his name was Brian Houston, who gave me the right to paint our own canvas. He was like, I'm not going to tell you what to do there. I don't live in New York. You do. So take the spirit of this house in Australia and build a church. And we did that. And it was cool. I think that we made a big impact in New York. And it included the people who nobody knows and some people that everybody knows.

And those people got all the press. It was never a big deal. It's a big deal to the media. They're like, people are Christians. Yeah. Yeah, they are tabloid. It happens. But that, so our church became really high profile. And how big was the church at that time? Like how big did it get? I mean, Hillsong Church all over would be like 100,000 people.

In Sydney, probably it was like 40,000 to 50,000 at one time. Ours was probably over 10,000, anywhere between 10,000 and beyond. But it was a big church, and it was a really incredible time. I had some issues in my life that I never addressed. And when you have a life that's smaller, you can get away with more. Not even get away with it. You don't have to address stuff. But as you know, if you're running from yourself, yourself is going to catch yourself

and you can't outrun yourself. You can't do it. I did for a long time. I was like an Olympic runner from myself, like gold medal winner from running from myself, but eventually it doesn't work. And, uh, it was found out that I cheated on my wife. And that led to a whole unraveling of scandals that included the greater Hillsong Church. Other people had some lives that were wrapped up. And my part to play in that was I lied to a lot of people. And I've had to stomach that and will for the rest of my life. And I'm not proud of it. I'm grateful that I get an opportunity to live a new kind of life that's honest. And the fallout was severe. We were a high-profile church, so it was like one of the most covered church scandals ever.

And it was hard for my family, hard for my wife. And we have done our best just to, um, walk through it, you know, as, as my wife has been brave, my kids have been brave and I don't get any credit for my role in this. I mean, I, I, the fact that my family still, you know, is, is, is open to me is a miracle in and of itself, but that's, that's what happened. So when you, there were documentaries made about it, there was, you know was countless narratives out there floating around, most of which weren't true. And we had to deal with a lot of that. Yeah. It was my fault.

So even when it comes to lies and narratives and accusation, even as mad as I wanted to be at some of it, it's like I could never get beyond the fact that I did this. I put my family in a vulnerable place for somebody to lie about us. And I remember making a dedication. I will never do this again. I will never give other people the power to control or hurt my life and my family. That's what you do when you lie. Yeah. You are giving up your agency because someone else now has the right to confront.

And then you have no ground to stand on. Yeah. So when you get caught lying like I did. And then people don't know what is the truth. What else is a lie? Yeah. Well, you lied about this. Maybe you lied about everything else.

And it's really honest about this. It's like they can now judge and pick at everything. Yes. Okay. Maybe you're telling the truth here, but can I trust you that you're telling the truth? And you have no ground to stand on because you're like, that's true, but that isn't. Well, how do I know? Because if that lie is real, if you were lying as a preacher and a pastor, that goes pretty deep. So how do I know everything you're saying isn't tinged with a lie? And you

learn quickly when you're in my shoes, I cannot control that. All I can control is the real truth, the real story. And by the grace of God, if somebody else ever understands, great. I have to live a different life and I have to convince my wife and my kids that I'm worthy of a second chance. So if anybody else ever believes me again, that would just be an awesome blessing, but I'm not living for that because those people have the right to judge however they want to judge. I can't force you to believe I'm honest. I can't do it. Honesty in truth is about investment.

It's about I'm going to give you equity almost because I don't know you, and I'm going to trust that you're a good person. And so for me, I have given up that task early. I used to think, how am I going to get people to trust me again? Now my only thought is I live honest. Wow. I live honest. Wow. I live honest. Because I can only imagine when all this is unraveling, and I've listened to your podcast and talked to you about this privately, but I can only imagine the ego in you wants to defend, try to repair quickly try to get people to understand you what you were

going through create the full context yeah you know people don't know the full truth yeah okay maybe there's some stuff i did that was really really bad or that was wrong or whatever but it doesn't mean i'm all bad you know i'm sure you wanted to defend and reply and make statements. I'm sure the ego wants to protect. How did you navigate the unraveling of everyone questioning you? Some of your closest friends leaving you and not speaking to you again. Feeling betrayed by people, even though you betrayed people as well, how did you navigate your ego and your heart and also trust in God?

Yeah. That's such a good freaking question. I've thrown a lot at you here. Um, let me try to trace some of that back. I think I got a piece of advice from a very dear friend who said you can't save your ass and your life at the same time something's got to give and you got to make a choice and what he meant by the other one is just reputation image your narrative your story or your life and if you this, you have to choose it all. There's no Instagram post.

There's no one interview. It's I am foregoing the right to explain myself and defend myself because that doesn't matter more than my family does. I cannot do both. I was in such a dark place in my own life that if I would have spent any time trying to do that, I don't think I'd be sitting here because it took every ounce of focus and desire to be able to go confront my own demons. And I couldn't do that with the pressure of trying to. It was just something we had to let go. And me and Laura stuck by my friend's quote.

He said, Carl, you got to let the rain fall. If you can by my friend's quote he said carl you gotta let the rain fall if you can let the rain fall there's gonna be some stuff that's gonna grow but you can't get in the way of the rain it's gonna let it go let it let it rain on you and it might take years of raining man it was years might be floods and there might be some drizzling clouds for the rest of my life that's my consequence but we have become really strong and focused and united where we're ready for storms now we don't run from storms we're in that regard we're like Buffalo the only animals that run directly into it so as a family it's like man we have been through so much that you don't know what we're made of you know people have there's always gonna be cruel people in

your comment thread or whatever you're a giant public of. You know, people have, there's always going to be cruel people in your comment thread or whatever. You're a giant public figure. So you know that. You have the best podcast in the world. There's that one guy with three followers who's like, you're terrible. And it's like, hmm, that hurts. But at the same time,

nobody can call me anything worse than I've called myself. So that's off the table. So it's like, man, you can insult me all you want. Trust me, I'm a worse critic of myself. I was than you are. So go for your life. If it makes you feel you can insult me all you want. Trust me. I'm a worse critic of myself. I was than you are. So go for your life.

If it makes you feel better to insult me, do it. If it makes you feel better to get on and send a comment, do what you have to do. It's not going to work. Yeah. But that's part of the journey is getting yourself to a place where you're able to stand in that storm. Man, I mean, I've experienced an immense amount of shame throughout my life decades of shame uh i've lied cheated stolen uh you know been unfaithful in the past in relationships i've done all you know all these things that i'm ashamed of right or was ashamed of before i started to repair

and start moment by moment day by day shifting my identity and my behaviors and living a different way. And the more you stack up those moments of integrity, of high values, of honesty, of sharing the things that you're ashamed of, even when I don't want to tell this person, but I'm going to tell them anyways, because I know it's my truth. Hopefully they accept me, but maybe they don't. Yeah. That's the risk. The more you do that, the more you can drop the masks. Like we talked about before we started recording, you can start to reveal yourself to yourself and to others and start building and repairing with self and others who want to be in that relationship with

you. But it starts with the relationship with self and the wounded self. And you and I, you know, both experienced sexual abuse, sexual, you know, stuff that happened to us younger. And I heard you talk about this when you went to rehab and therapy, that the brain, the chemistry in the brain really gets messed up when someone has been sexually abused at any age, right? Something like fractures in the brain where you think a certain way about the world, you have trust in the world, and then you no longer have that thought or trust.

Something that's fractured. Yeah. Especially at a younger age. And then there's a lot of shame about what is wrong about me. Why am I doing this? What's wrong with me? Why did this happen to me? And that shame and that doubt can creep into anything until you address it,

mend it, heal it, and repair it. For me, it took 25 years until I started that process. And I'm assuming it took about 25, 30 years for you too. Yeah, I'm 45. So yeah. So it took some time until you kind of addressed it, started healing and working on that journey, which is a journey. And then there typically are behaviors that come up. For you, it was certain addictive behaviors. For me, it was other addictive behaviors and everyone has their vice right we all the vice that creates yeah some are more judgy than others yes some vices are more yes are tougher to stomach than others but their vices yeah they are they are

some are drugs sexual stuff porn masturbation whatever it might be, you lean into something that creates a sense of comfort or something that you can avoid a feeling. Yeah. And that causes more shit. Or to get a feeling. Something else. Yes. Some other feeling. Yeah.

To avoid the feeling of pain and suffering and shame. Right? Yeah. And I think that's where a lot of addiction can stem from is this shame or this feeling of I don't want to address the wound. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's where a lot of addiction can stem from is this shame or this feeling of, I don't want to address the wound. Yeah. Because it is so painful. Now that doesn't, you know, when we do something out of integrity, it doesn't excuse those

things, the behaviors, the actions and the pain that is caused on others when those do that. pain that has caused on others when those do that so i'm curious about how you've dealt with the suffering yourself of like that insecurity or shame of like i'm supposed to be this preacher right yeah yeah is the thought i'm supposed i'm preaching to people there's 10 000 people coming every week you know celebrities are coming to me leaning on me for wisdom and spiritual counselor counsel yet i know i'm living a mask in some ways yeah you know however much judgment you want to create for that right the levels of judgment yeah how have you been able to repair that relationship with yourself about those years where you were suffering and feeling the

pain because i can have empathy for you yeah but also the tens of thousands of people that might have been thinking gosh was everything a lie was he was doing all these other things but telling us to do something else like could, could we trust or believe anything? And also, does that mean my relationship to God is not real? How have you navigated that, all of that? That's, you know, the pain that you've suffered, but also the pain that others have suffered. Yeah. It's the top three question premises I've ever been given. Thank you. Golly. I think, okay, let me try to go from, so people often ask, how did it get so bad? How do you get there? Well, before you lie to anybody else, you lie to yourself. So at the end of my rope here, I had lied to myself for so long that I was lost completely.

And it's the only way you can survive. Unless you're just a horrible, evil person, you are not designed to live with lies. You're not, can't survive. But I had found a way to run from something I didn't understand. And, and it just was, I remember when I got to, to my rehab, a counselor asked me, why'd you let it go so long? And I was like, well, I didn't want to hurt people. She goes, oh, so you're the hero. Oh, you're the hero in your story. You were hurting people the entire time. And that was the beginning of the end for me with my facade, because I realized, because up until then, I still had excuses. And I'm glad what you said, what you said. Doesn't matter how many times we say this,

people are going to hear what they want to hear. When you give reasons for why you hurt people or made mistakes, they are not excuses. They're just ways so people don't have to do the same thing. There is no excuse for my behavior. There was no excuse. None. I was wrong. I wanted to change my life. So I had to go backwards. And I am, I've been doing this for a long time. I'll do it for the rest of my life. But I went all the way back to my sexual abuse, which I didn't start acknowledging until I was about 30. And I was praying for people at church who were sexually abused. And I had flashes in my own mind. And it just freaked me out.

And I kind of tried to tell my parents a little. My parents are incredible. They are my heroes. I was abused by a house guest. And as a parent, it's your worst nightmare. It's like the one time you turn your back situation for me it was the babysitter yeah that i would go to the son like a teenage son of a babysitter that they would send to after school yeah which is like a nightmare because you sent it to someone that you want to trust right like a babysitter yeah

and and so i i had to start dealing with that because as I got older, those were more prominent. I started to realize how bad that moment was of abuse and what happened in my life. And then, so as I'm going all the way back, it starts to make sense. So I learned about brain chemistry, what happens when you're a little kid and you get sexually twisted. I was never faithful to a woman my entire life. I had two girlfriends in sixth grade. Why would I do that? Like I, even back then I couldn't understand, like, why would I, I always had a penchant to do something in secret and in private, even if I was perfectly happy. With every girlfriend? I'd have an amazing girlfriend that I was totally okay with. This is great. And then I would make a bad decision in

private and I would hate myself for it. And I don't know why I loved it. I don't know why I loved it I don't know what is that that I loved and it took some of this deep work to understand like in my brain I associated you know that that day sex with hidden private quiet and as a kid maybe something felt good even we learned that in abuse circles that sometimes your body reacts to stuff that your brain has no idea about. So as I grew as a pastor, I ran out of places where I could feel anything because my adrenal glands were in trouble already. And we had such a big life that was kind of an impacting life on the outside that nothing really impacted me anymore. Like I would always feel the weight of it, but it's not like speaking in front of crowds would, would, you know, be awesome.

Like, like it's like what you live for. It was just part of my job. And I used to find these escape valves that were hidden sin and they would get worse and worse and worse. And then it gets so bad. You don't know what to do. And then you just start living with it. You're like, well, if I, I mean, it's so far gone now, Lewis, what am I going to do? If I'm honest about this, it's all, everybody's that's tied to me, every job, every employee, every parishioner, everybody, everybody now is, is, is in this because of me. So what am I going to do now? And that, that self loatathing was was a horrible suicidal place to be really did you ever feel suicidal as a preacher before kind of this started to unravel or was it more once everyone no here's about what i've done or my behaviors my actions or yeah or even the lies

that they're making up as well. Now I'm suicidal. Yeah. I'd never had a suicidal thought before that chapter. Really? And they were big. Afterwards, they were big. Yeah. How close were you to wanting to end it?

There's like, obviously, suicidal ideation is kind of the beginning of some of that picture. And that was constant. And it got probably to a place where I had envisioned, this is what I'm going to do. Really? If I do this, this is what I'm going to do. So we're on the doorstep. And I am grateful to God that in that moment, I just realized, I've been so selfish. realize you mean i've been so selfish the ultimate selfish top card would be to now bail on my family

and my children so not only was your dad he lied and he embarrassed you and then he left and i thought i i don't know if i'm ready to do that because i don't find any worth in myself, but I don't want those. Gosh. You know, I don't want these babies to have a dad on top of this that left the earth because he couldn't handle his own music that he pressed play on. And so I can only give that credit to God because I don't have that kind of strength. I don't have that kind of confidence or wherewithal to go. I'm going to try to own some of this. And so I'm so grateful that that didn't take place. I'm grateful that I found a way out. And I don't look at what happened to me as I got caught and God was mad at me.

I look at what happened as God loves me so much that he allowed some of this to happen so I could somehow salvage the rest of this beautiful life we have in front of us. And there's old scripture that everybody knows, even if you're not a Christian. It's Psalm 23, the Lord is my shepherd. And there's a part in there where it says he makes me lie down in green pastures and he restores my soul. Wow. Makes me. And in the image is a shepherd pushing sheep down who wouldn't lay down. Forces.

And I see that now. Wow. I wanted the restores my soul without the pain, without the force to lay down. Wow. And God is too good for that. And I just I sit there and I go, I wasn't going to sit down. I had been running forever. And that situation was my he makes makes you lie down in green pastures. He restores your soul. He restores your soul.

You can't you can't have the restoration without the lying down. And I'm going to try to help as many people as I can avoid that in that way. Everyone's going to have a makes you lie down moment, everybody. But there's a different way to go about it than lies, scandals, heartache, pain. But that's been my story. Psalm 23 is where I stay right now spiritually. I read it a lot. I think about it a lot. I meditate on it a lot because it resonates with me in a different way. You know, the very first thing, the Lord is my shepherd. Well, it means I'm not alone right away.

I have a shepherd. I have a boss. I have a protector. I have a redeemer. I have someone who cares about me. So I'm not alone. The Lord is my shepherd. One verse of this beautiful Psalm is enough for me to think about every day and go, all me so i'm not alone the lord is my shepherd one verse of this beautiful psalm is enough for me to think about every day and go all right i'm not alone here yeah i'm i'm yeah i'm i'm cared for i'm counted i'm known i'm seen and that's a hard place to be yeah it's a hard revelation to have when you when you haven't wanted people to see who you are and you've been hiding these parts of yourself yeah i mean i lived for a long time not wanting to reveal all the shameful parts of me yeah and um like you said it just kind of keeps building like you keep hiding it until you get found out something gets found out something gets revealed or you go through it uh yeah uh a very sick time like the the universe creates a near death experience, a physical breakdown,

a spiritual breakdown, a relational breakdown, something. If you're not living that path, like it causes you to wake up. Yeah. However you want to interpret it. Right.

It's like, and this is what you wake up. Yeah. Yeah. Are you going to wake up or are you not? Yeah. Yeah. What are you going to do with it?

How much more pain do you want to experience? What about, I mean, how have you navigated? So it sounds like that's how you've been able to navigate kind of your suffering and your pain and like your journey. But how have you navigated? Suffering of the people. How have you navigated the suffering of the people that looked up to you or they looked up to church culture, pastors that they put their faith in?

pastors that they put their faith in? And also, how have you responded to people either privately, publicly, those that you were close with, those that maybe felt you violated trust with them in certain ways, privately or publicly that you never met? How have you navigated that? Very hard. Very great question. I think you have to come to terms and make peace with the fact that, you know, in this 12-step plan, when you make amends, it has to be where it's appropriate and safe for the other person. And there are, for me, and then if you're a public figure, which is a terrible term, if you have a life that's in public, the desire to make amends personally is not realistic. So you have to find a way to make peace with that. And the way I've done that is I've decided to try to use the rest of my life to make a living amends in that we could go off into hiding and people have asked, why would you guys do this?

And I'm like, good question. I think it's- You could go move to another country. It's the lazy answer. It's lazy. And I think for me, it was a selfish choice for me to live a life in public, fall. And then the thought of now just keeping this to myself, this healing. I don't know if you have experienced this, but I have access to help that not a lot of people have.

And it's not fair. I remember going to rehab going, how much is this? Oh, it's no wonder. Nope. Who can afford this? I had people send me there. And you go for a month. Who has the time to go for that long?

Who can do that? So I feel like part of my living amends is to let people know about what's helping me. I'm not an expert. I'm not a guru. But I am somebody you can probably relate to. And unfortunately, like Laura and I are now like, well, for the 98% of marriages out there that are broken and rough, we're with you. Let's talk. We can't help you. If you're in that 2% where everything's great, we're not for you,

but we got to use what hand I dealt us. And that means right now, you know, to make living amends in In my estimation, I'm allowed to narrate that as I want. That's what I'm going to do every single day. And if there's a reception for it, cool. If people want it, great. If they don't, I get that too. But I'm going to try. And then if that doesn't work, I'll try something else. Personally, when I see someone, it's a joy.

It's an honor to be able to look someone in the eye and say, I'm so sorry as your leader for misleading you, for lying to you, for breaking your trust, for mishandling your beautiful investment of trust that you gave me. And my prayer is that, and I know God is so good. He's not going to let this be something that stops you from a relationship with him. I know I did that well as a preacher. I never pointed to myself, ever. relationship with him. I know I did that well as a preacher. I never pointed to myself, ever. So one of the few things I did right was be able to teach people that the grace of God goes through somebody. So when you see somebody preaching, don't get caught up in the preacher. They are just as fallible as you. You might not know it, but they have their own issues. I am an example of

God using a broken thing to help produce beautiful things in people's lives. And God can do the same thing for you. So I have heard from people that have been disappointed and hurt. And they say, but you taught us right. You taught us to look over the human because you're just a preacher, just a communicator, just a pastor. You're not a deity. And then there's some people that are probably still mad, will be mad forever. I get that too.

My heart goes out to them. I pray for them. Uh, and when I'm able, you know, I make amends, but that's, that's the life that I have to choose to live. And, and I'm, I have embraced it. Wow. And so you've, you've seen people face to face that have, what was that like when they, they kind of look at you maybe with a little judgment or frustration? Never one, experience. Really? Not one. Normally it's tears on both sides right away. Really? Yeah.

That's beautiful. Have someone come up to you and just been like, I can't believe I trusted you and I was in your church for this many years. And like I said, I don't care what you say to me. I'm never going to forgive you. Have you had an experience like that? I've read experiences like that. Yeah.

But never, never when I see people in airports or on the street. Normally, it's unbelievably encouraging to me. And I feel overwhelmed that God is that kind. Where someone who has the right to say whatever they want to say chooses that route of, yeah, disappointed, hurt. But sometimes people will say, you gave grace to me and you prayed for me. And so- When I was going through my stuff. Yeah.

Interesting. Yeah. And that's not owed, but my gosh, it's appreciated. Yeah, of course. Yeah. I mean, this brings up the concept of, you know, there are a percentage of people in the world in all types of churches who have experienced pain from their priest, preacher, church leader, or someone in the church. You hear a lot of cases about

sexual trauma, psychological trauma, just different types of abuses that people hear about. Yeah. And it's probably not... It's there, but it's loud, right? So it's not every preacher is doing this. It's not every church is doing this. But there are people who have horrible experiences that are just like lose faith and trust in religion, priests, preachers, church leaders because of what they've experienced, right? My question is, you know, I'm friends with a lot of spiritual leaders in different religions. You are.

Preachers in the Christian faith, but also in Buddhist leaders, friends with a lot of people that I believe are doing their best to bring spirituality to the world. And I also know that human beings are flawed. You know what I mean? Yeah. Human beings are flawed. I know what I mean? Yeah. Human beings are flawed.

I grew up in a very, I would consider humble religion, a Christian religion called Christian science. I don't know if I mentioned this to you before. A little bit. You mentioned a little bit. Yeah. And the thing, you know, there's judgmental people in every religion, right? Yeah. I found people that were judgmental in this religion growing up as well.

How would you sum up the baseline of christian science christian science for me is it's founded by a woman in the late 1800s okay who learned to heal herself by reading the bible she was experiencing a lot of physical pain and she wrote another book called science and health which is the key to the scriptures it's kind of the spiritual and scientific interpretation of the Bible, which can be confusing for a lot of people. What does this mean? And what is the scientific spiritual interpretation of this? But growing up in this religion, it was all about we are spiritual human beings. There is no matter. There is no physical human. Now, we live in a world of physicality, but it is our duty to rise above it and be spiritual. Be mind with a capital M, conscious with a capital C, love with a capital L. And how can we stay in that space of spirituality as frequently as possible?

Now, as a child growing up and having sexual desires and being like, well, I'm injured. What do you mean? I'm not a physical being, right? Yeah. But it was all about, okay, if you feel an ailment, if you feel sick, how can you heal it with your mind, with prayer, and with knowing the truth that we are spiritual beings? And therefore, you cannot be harmed in the kingdom of God. Right.

So there's a lot of beautiful lessons. But the thing that I wanted to speak about in this religion is that there's no preachers. There's no priests. There's no like leader of a church who could feel like they have a lot of power in this church. There are. And in some ways it's kind of boring to go to church yeah because there's no fancy music there's no lights there's no charismatic leader on stage storytelling yeah it is you go and there are two people who are appointed to read the exact lesson

of that week from the bible and the science and health. And they read what is the words here. Yeah, okay. And they are appointed by the community of the church for I think one or two years. And then two other people read. Interesting. And they read and they don't say anything else.

So it's not about them at all. So in a sense, i appreciate that it was never about a leader having like any power with their their community yeah it was the community appointing people and then reappointing new people every year or two so it was always changing and you followed kind of the script of what the Bible lesson was that week. But in some ways, it's kind of boring. It's a give and take. It's like, okay, you sit there and you have to really be present.

Yeah. You have to really be like, this is a silent, almost meditation prayer. And I'm listening and it's peaceful. We sing hymns. Yep. But they're old. It's not like these cool, like fancy, like, oh, we're like hip hop. They'll sing hymns. Yep. But they're old. It's not like these cool, like fancy, like, oh, we're like hip hop hymns. Hill song hymns.

Yeah, yeah. This is not like, oh, we're like dancing and like feeling the Holy Spirit up in here. Yeah. This is. But there's also a, almost a protective sense to it. Yeah. That it's safe. Okay.

You know, so what is your thoughts on preacher culture, people having massive personal brands and kind of almost having this authority to- Fantastic question. Well, charismatically, because they're great communicators, they're great storytellers. They might be great spiritual human beings too. Wow. But really captivate and move audiences and bring people in and make sure that how are people protected from that power, that energy, that force of community that is also into that energy. I'm not saying it's bad or wrong, but to also be aware of the pitfalls.

This is a human being yeah they are not god yep they're preaching a word that hopefully is inspired through them yeah and to not let the the message and the messenger get too mixed up get mixed up i don't know if this is making sense i'm trying to is it's freaking making a lot of sense your layered questions are unbelievable i mean i've seen it from my phone but to actually sit here and have to field that question it's like lord jesus i think uh so it has to be said that i think it's a hundred to one faithful pastors and priests to the ones who end up on the front page for living lives me a hundred to one if not a thousand to one yeah and that's what that's what that's what's hard about situations like mine because that's going to get the press the guy that's faithfully serving his

church loves his wife takes care of his kids preaches faithfully about jesus that no one wants to talk to that guy. So that, but it's awesome to have a moment like this, to be able to tell everybody like, you know what? Most of the pastors and the preachers that you're going to be around, they're awesome people. They're incredible. The trade-off of a super charismatic gift is that it's going to go bad.

It's going to always go bad. Not every time, but as long as that's in the picture, there's no answer for this because humans are going to go bad. It's going to always go bad. Not every time, but as long as that's in the picture, there's no answer for this because humans are going to human. Like we say, there's no such thing as a perfect church because if there were, nobody could go. So there's always going to be preachers that fall. But I feel like that's life. I don't want to trade somebody's beautiful gift because of the fear of. To me, that's a robbery. And I'd rather take my chances that God's going to be so faithful where stories like mine will set preachers up behind us safer, better. And he can use a disaster like I went through to be able to, maybe we can see in the future,

less preachers end up on the front page for the wrong reasons because of the lessons that are passed out. And so I get the criticism of it. You know, the personality driven churches. I'm always like, you know, there's a funny word play. You know, people are like, you're not supposed to entertain. You guys are entertainers. Well, do you know what the word entertain means? To captivate for a long period of time.

That's true. If that is true, you know who the greatest entertainer of all time was? Jesus. So captivating that people would follow him through deserts. They would risk their lives to get up in a tree just to get a glimpse of him. So I always push back on the church is too entertaining to who first of all get out more people used to come to our church be like oh it's like a rock show a rock show have you been to madison square garden have you seen you two in the bubble if this is a rock show you need to expand your world um so to your point i think i i i i have hope for a brighter day i think mistakes like i

made sin like i had hidden um i can go back to when i could have helped myself and i was about i i just i didn't know i didn't know what i needed to explain yeah yeah I didn't know. I didn't know what I needed to execute. I didn't know. And I don't know why that's my path, Lewis. I really don't. I often have that conversation with God on some dark days. Like, you couldn't have shook me awake and forced me to go tell somebody, hey, I got sexual issues. I got habits. I got inclinations. I got desires. I don't know what to do with them. Up until now, I just push them down and run, but they don't go anywhere. And if someone could have sat across from me and said, let's talk, let's talk about sexual abuse. Let's talk about pornography's effect. Let's talk about what it means to have multiple sexual partners. Let's talk about what it does to your brain. Let's talk about how just because you became a Christian, that stuff's not going to vanish. Right. Which is sometimes what we, oh, if I just will follow God hard enough, this stuff's going to dissipate. That's some people's story. I've never known it.

I've never met one person that has a story where just because you made a choice to serve God in a different capacity, all of a sudden, every single thing you've ever done loses its power. It loses its eternal power. You're forgiven. But the consequences of sin sin they don't just evaporate so i i feel like we have an opportunity that's why i'm doing this i would love to continue to do what i was doing for the first two years which is nothing taking care of myself right taking care of my kids taking care of my wife and everybody else can sort it out god bless you i'm gonna make money and i'm gonna do something that you know is is is better for us that would be the option i would choose but this life isn't about us so you're gonna hear me talking about my humiliating moments

for the rest of my life because that's the that's the only way i can redeem it and and i'm okay with that i've come i've come to peace with it so yeah that's the guy who uh can redeem it. And I'm okay with that. I've come to peace with it. So yeah, that's the guy who, yeah, I'm that guy. I'm definitely that guy. But tell the rest of the story. I am the guy that had a great church. I am the guy that was known for this. And then it became known for this, but I feel like I'm known for this now. So please tell the whole story. And I like that seat because there's a lot of people watching that have had a bad chapter, seat because there's a lot of people watching that have had a bad chapter maybe even a bad book greatest news on earth at any time you can change your story you can change your chapter you can change your narrative only you can

check only you control that as much as we want to believe it somebody else no it's not true God can forgive you we can pick you up you can write a new chapter and there's a lot of us on that road with some scars and some ugly stories, but my gosh, we got smiles again. It's possible to smile again. I didn't think that was going to be possible, but I don't think I've ever been more comfortable in my own skin than I sit here with you post-scandal with everybody knowing the worst of you. I'm okay. Why do you feel good or okay? I mean, you're not good, but why do you feel okay about you post-scandal, post all these things that have happened and everyone knowing or thinking and assuming all sorts of stuff? I'm honest. My wife knows me. My kids know me.

My friends know me. I've got nothing to hide. I've got nothing to prove. That's a dangerous place to be in the best way. I look at myself as a positively dangerous human being because I got nothing to hide over here. And I did pretty well hiding. I was functioning on 40% health and we had a huge impact. So if I can just get to 45%, heaven forbid, 80, 90, maybe we can really make a difference in this world. But I'm comfortable. I'm at peace i'm okay with people thinking what they want to think i was never okay with that before you weren't okay with people what i had a deep desire to be understood and it robbed me of a lot

of joy um i wouldn't do something because i didn't want someone to perceive it away i wouldn't do this i wouldn't do that and i would worry about this. I'd lose sleep over that. I look back at it now. It's like all those people I was trying to appease, they're terrible. They weren't there then. They're not going to be here now. Why would I ever live like that? So it's been a fun journey of just being comfortable, waking up like,

there's nothing over my shoulder coming. Like I didn't really enjoy a lot of this before because no matter how big the wind was, I still, I got something back here that could come back to bite me. So everybody else could be celebrating a win. We took some ground, did something great. But in my heart, it was never like a full celebration because I felt I'm a liar. Because from my understanding, you were probably the most famous preacher, pastor that there was at the time right for a number of years you were like building a movement you had a lot of press and awareness because of your celebrity uh the celebrities that were involved in your church that you were working with

so there was a massive um audience staring at you all the time right is what from my, from my understanding, you're one of the biggest. Yes. In the Christian world, you were one of the biggest leaders for a number of years. Yep. But you weren't able to appreciate or enjoy it because you knew you were living this lie. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And I rationalized it and compartmentalized it. Everybody, to a degree, you're're gonna have some things that people aren't gonna know about it's not even their right to yeah yeah they don't need that's not what i'm talking about your life yeah i'm not saying every preacher in the world has to be like hey here's you know like that's not what we're talking about that's not real vulnerability necessarily um but yes the kind of stuff that i hid and buried i said to somebody I thought I was burying lies. I was really digging my own grave. Wow. Every day you live with a lie and you think you got away with it. You didn't get away with

anything. Nobody ever gets away with a lie. Even if nobody finds out, you robbed yourself your whole life. That's true. The moment you live with a lie, your heart is being taken up. Space is being taken up with a lie that was meant for love oh man if you start piling up those lies like i did there's no space for anything else like my arms were filled i got i can't i can't have any joy i can't have any presence i can't have any uh peace because i got i got to carry all these you let those things go all of a sudden why do you feel so free why do you feel so light

because i got room i got space right so you make the decision when you lie to take up space in your soul for something that was supposed to be healthy and beautiful and lovely and kind and and explosively joyful you choose the lie and i have empathy for people that are doing that because i did it for so freaking long all the way because no i never told anybody about that abuse no way no, I never told anybody about that abuse. No way. I was buried. Never told anybody about my private life in high school. No way. My parents found out I had sex when I was like 14 and I began lying immediately. I remember the day I lied about it. And that was the beginning of this cycle that landed on some big new cycles decades later. So there is joy and freedom though in discovery. There is. And it's one thing to get caught and be upset that you got caught and change some of your behavior so you can kind of just keep on living. Someone was like,

would you have stopped if you didn't get caught? I'm like, thank God I'll never have to know that dumb hypothetical. Like, I don't know. And God's so gracious I haven't had to find out I did get caught. And I didn't turn myself in. I got turned in. I didn't valiantly come to somebody and say, here's what I'm doing. That's not my story. My story is embarrassing.

It's humiliating. And it still led to me having a discovery about who I really am. And I got to, I got to stay in on that. Wow, man. Yeah. Yeah. It's almost like you could continue to have all this outwardly success, but suffer inside for decades and never really be able to enjoy your life and your, your marriage and your

kids, because you know, I'm, I'm living a lie or I'm a liar or I am a lie. Even though everyone's praising me, I know something is off and I haven't addressed it with me or the people closest to me. So you're going to suffer. Unless you're a sociopath and have no emotion, you're going to suffer. And you're probably to create cancer, disease, past and have no emotion. You're going to suffer. And you're probably to create cancer, disease, some type of pain that will manifest. Have you heard somebody say, if you don't heal what hurts you and cut you, you will bleed on those who didn't hurt you or cut you. I resonated with that when I heard that. I was like, oh my gosh, because I didn't. And the effect isn't even the people.

I never got back at the guy who abused me. Never wanted to, by the way. I mean, I made peace with that, wrote him a letter in rehab, and that never went anywhere. But I was done. I mean, to do what he did to me, he must have had, I don't even know what happened to somebody like that. But I feel like that is such a huge part of recovery is getting to that place where it's like I'm hurting the wrong people. Like my kids are suffering. They suffered during that scandal because I didn't heal.

And I just, I will never do that again. And I'm going to be in the middle of the road for anybody else who might have some questions. Hey, I got some stuff. Cool, man. I'm your guy. I can just show you what happened. You messed up? I'm here some stuff. Cool, man. I'm your guy. Yeah, yeah. I can just show you what happened. You messed up? I'm here for you.

I got you. I'm not ashamed of you. I'm not embarrassed about you at all. It's almost kind of, it's like you have an opportunity. I don't know if you watched that movie, Catch Me If You Can. Yes.

Yes, yes, yes. It's like the guy who like- Brother Leo, yeah. Did all the, wrote all the bad checks and stole money or whatever from everyone and then went to prison, but then I guess got out

and his life became about helping the government like catch people and create better systems and like, okay, now I need to serve and pay my debt almost and just be of service. It's called the grace reversal. The very thing that was killing you and you are using to kill becomes the very thing that gives you life and you help others find life through it. Only the grace of God can do that. Really? Yeah, we can't, I can't do that. Nobody else can make that happen. But if you, if you have lied as a public figure and somehow God gives you an

opportunity to tell the truth again, as I mean, that's, that's a beautiful thing. It's like someone who commits a crime and then they go into prison and the whole prison gets help because they're there, whatever it is, like whatever your situation is, if you're willing to put your hand up and say, I can't do this on my own, my invitation is that God can help you turn that thing around. You're in control of that. That's comforting. I listened to the podcast that you and your wife, Laura, have done. There's three episodes out right now at the time of recording this that are extremely powerful. You go into more detail about specific events, what happened, what didn't happen. We don't have to go into all of that because people can go

listen to that and hear more and make their own judgments and listen to whatever might be there. But Laura has been one of the people that you've bled on, you know, from all this, from the, the pain, the sadness, the suffering, the lies, and man to hear her, I mean, meeting her last year and to hear how she has responded and how she has taken her power back and started to go to healing, her voice creating boundaries creating yeah a powerful relationship with herself first so that she can see if she wanted to stay with you yes it's fascinating to hear her talk about this and even her say you know i told myself growing up like if someone ever did this to me there's no way i'm out i'm out i would leave if they ever cheated if they ever lied i would never be with this i would never put up with this

and then she says and then you're in the middle of it and you have to think about things differently yeah and uh it is amazing to hear her journey of also being shamed on by lots of women messaging her telling her you're an idiot for staying in this relationship. Once a cheater, always a cheater. He's going to do this again. I can't believe you're not leaving and standing up for yourself. All these different things that women have said to her, right?

Yeah. But to her to make a choice to stay with you, why did she choose to stay with you? And how is your marriage different now 2.0 version yeah my wife is uh she's a hero to me to my kids she's unbelievable you've met her she's explosively australian uh and our love is really deep i think that uh that can get lost sometimes when you read about people you don't know and you see stories and it's like, no, we're regular people just like you. Like we've been in love for a very long time. How long have you been married now?

21 years. 21 years, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So it's been a long time and we dated for a couple years before that. So most of my adult life has been eye to eye with this woman. And I think, you know, she's going to continue to speak for herself. And I think what I love about watching her do that is she did take the harder road, but it wasn't what people think. It wasn't like, I forgive you.

She just forgave me last year. Last year. Three years in. It was the first time, and I asked her to pray for me. And, man, I haven't talked about this. I should have saved this for my own podcast lewis uh no i i i said will you pray for me and she said i can't i can't i said why she's like because i i haven't forgiven you yet and uh she sobbed this is in church this is a quiet moment in church

and then she said yeah you know i'm gonna choose to forgive you i forgive you and it was such a pivotal thing because i i never expected her or had a condition that she forgives me ever. It was just, I'm just happy to be here. Happy to be here. Happy to be here. And if it ever comes back around, cool. But I don't expect that. So she had really clear conditions. She had a support system of people. She had a bank account set up. She had a bank account set up. She had a divorce lawyer ready. We were going to separate, but it was the logistics of that time were just a nightmare. And had it been more normal, she probably would have left. But yeah, she gave me an opportunity to back up the words that I say. Because when you're in the situation,

words are words. I'm not going to do this again. Yeah. I don't believe you. Because who's not going to say that? And so we had very, very clear boundaries. Really? And I, my job is to, I get my orders every day. That's what I feel like. I feel like I'm a, you know, an employee like, Hey, what do you need from me today? Let's go. Let me look at this. Okay. And I've learned to relate to that in such a beautiful way because it's a joy. I don't get defensive if she's like, hey, I was triggered yesterday. Why? Because I don't know why. Maybe early on it was like, I can't do any more than I'm doing. And then you mature and you grow through that.

You would do that? Absolutely. I'm trying to do everything. I'm telling you what I'm at. I would get frustrated sometimes. I'd be what what more more do you want that i was normally good but there were moments where it would be like what more do you want yeah you're like i'm checking in every hour through you have access to every password you're on what you have bank accounts this that you have no everything i'm doing at every everything i'm doing and where i'm at you've got a gps on me you've got i've got an ankle bracelet i've got a monitor i've got a GPS on me. I've got an ankle bracelet. I've got a monitor. I've got a heartbeat checker.

You know how many steps I've taken today. Yeah, yeah. And I think then you have to get to a place as a man, the one who broke the trust where you realize, hey, guess what? This isn't ever going to be about me, ever. And you do what you need to do. So now it's, hey, I feel triggered. I don't need a reason. My response is, what can I do? What need to do. So now it's, Hey, I feel triggered. I don't need a reason. My response is what can I do? What can I do? I don't, it doesn't, it doesn't have to make sense. It really doesn't.

Cause what I did sure didn't make sense. Right, right, right, right. So why am I looking for answers for you? So, and we've gotten to a really cool rhythm, beautiful rhythm. And there there's always going to be moments where she's going to question me that's my consequence i'm up for it i'm not running from that i'm just going to try to give as much evidence as i can that i'm worthy of the opportunity she's given me and i don't have another shot it's not like there's you know you can't slip a little bit and be and rightfully so there's not like a you know and having said that she's been gracious in my recovery because i haven't done it all right i have fallen on my face since

i've tried your recovery yes in what ways um i had a relapse early on and uh it was it was it hit me by surprise in such a way where i was able to tell her this is what happened. I feel like I know the pattern that I didn't see coming and she agreed. So it was a pretty specific situation, but all that to say, it's not like I've had to live on this perfect tightrope. She's not like that. And I could sit here all day and talk about Laura, but she's the light of my life. And I'm grateful that God gave me a chance to redeem some of this. So we ended our first marriage. We're on our marriage number two, and it's a beautiful one. The first marriage has to die.

Oh, my gosh. It has to. You cannot. Have you ever seen somebody try to make an old beat-up car? They put rims on it, and you're like, bro, why didn't you just save that extra five grand and go towards just a better vehicle? Now you've got that old car with some shiny rims. I think sometimes trying to repair brokenness can be like that, where it's like, you know what, let's just give this chapter to God. It's over. Marriage number two. When did that start? Was there a ritual you guys had? Was there a moment where you said

this marriage is no longer ours? Like I'm not in in this marriage anymore if we're going to do this we need to create a new marriage new vows i don't know what was the process or ritual like so i heard a a woman named esther perel yeah yeah i've had her on many times have you she's great throw it out like that like my hero of mine she's your friend got it it. No, she, she has a lot. She has a lot to say. And I heard her talk about that concept at work in her podcast. She's got a podcast that talks about like how to repair relationships that have gone through infidelity. And yes, she is.

She is a beast. I mean, in the most respectful way that you use that word. And I came back, I told Laura is what I heard. Let's do that. That's a shake on it. It's been real. First marriage. Really? Laura this is what I heard. Let's do that. Let's shake on it. It's been real.

First marriage. Really? Marriage number two. Boom. And it was like for both of us just fresh air because that marriage is done. It's the second marriage. So we both get to know each other again. And it's beautiful.

You're on the precipice of one of the best things in life, which is marrying the woman you love. And you don't know who you are when you get married. You have advantages because you're a little bit older, accomplished in life. But when you're 20 something years old and you're sitting there taking marriage vows, you're a baby. Oh my gosh.

You're not the same person the next day. Like you don't know who you're committing to. I look back at Laura staring at my eyes, early twenties going, I give you my life. I trust you. We didn't know who you're committing to i look back at laura staring at my eyes early 20s going i i give you my life i trust you um we didn't know who we were you know so now at 45 we're both 45 we feel better than we've ever felt more honest than we've ever been more authentic we have more fun we have better intimacy we have uh a better rapport like i i'm able to be who i always envisioned i could be for

her really yeah because there was this big blockage called the the lies and the fake me rapport. Like I, I I'm able to be who I always envisioned I could be for her. Yeah. Because there was this big blockage called the, the, the lies and the fake me that was between my wife and I, and that's not there. So she's able to see more of me and I'm able to see all of her. And, um, I'm just, I'm overjoyed with it. If we can do it, I think there's a lot of people that can have hope that they can do it too. And it doesn't mean if someone has betrayed you or lied to you or cheated on you or whatever it might be that you need to stay with them. If Laura was here, she'd say eight out of 10 should go. Eight out of 10.

So this isn't like a condemnation of people that left, leave marriages when they're dangerous and they're in trouble. Or Laura would say that it's the man's responsibility to do the work. If he does the work and he shows up for it, then you have reason to maybe consider. But this blanket, I'm going to stay married because that's God's will, number one, wrong. That's not right, firstly. And secondly, you have the right to protect yourself. You have the right to walk away biblically, especially if somebody has broken their vows and you feel threatened in any way. That's right a lot. How does that, I mean, because there's so many people

that say once you get married that you're set for life. That's what the church or the religion has either told them or influenced them. So how can someone who is a religious person or who believes in marriage to one person forever, thinking and believing that's God's will, way, desires, or the church's desires, and if I get divorced or separate, then God won't love me, the church will disown me, people will judge me. How does

someone navigate that? Well, right away, if someone thinks that there's a fundamental flaw in their prism about who God is, because they, in their mind, their salvation still has something to do with their performance, which, so in their mind, they're thinking I did stuff. So God would love me. And if I don't do those things, God won't love me there. Um, they haven't necessarily been shown what the grace of God is, which is mercy and favor and love that you don't deserve, but you get it anyway. You don't deserve this. God gave it to us. So I can't, I didn't earn it. Therefore I can't lose that. So that's the first thing people understand, like God's not gonna, he's not a conditional parole officer where it's like, Lewis, you were great in February.

My gosh, gold star, my guy. Yeah. Now, March, you're on the fence. We don't know who you are. I don't know. We're going to see how many times can you go to church this month. And then me and the angels will have a look at helping you out. A lot of people, that's actually their framework.

And it's very sad and it's painful to watch. So when things go wrong, it's not God's plan that was the problem. It's humanity. So it's not like the institution of marriage that God set up is wrong. I don't know about that. Why? Because someone broke the pattern and broke the plan. So I think removing that, and Laura would have something to say on that because she did struggle with her relationship with god for a little really because she did everything right she was faithful she was um resolute disciplined i mean faithful and did all the right things and she was put in this horrible position it's fair to go is any of this real like i mean it's easier for me because i did real? Like, I mean, it's easier for me because I did, I've made all these mistakes. So it's easier for me to come to grips with it, but for her to do

nothing wrong, nothing, and have to carry the weight of that, you know, it was a big thing, but she, she got through it and, and, and she's, you know, in a beautiful place with that, but it was definitely a challenge. And not to get too personal here, but you mentioned intimacy being, you know, great between you guys. How does, you know, a woman who has been affected and maybe only Laura can speak to this, but what she's told you, what she said on the podcast that you guys have talked about, what is she shared on how she's been able to allow herself in intimate sexual moments with you to feel safe again? Yeah.

Like how has she been able, you know, what has she shared so far? It's a lot of work. I think that it's a, it's been a- Because she said to go through her own healing journey on her own. Yeah. Which she talks about in your guys' podcast. Yeah, she does. She does. I think hers was, she's a fighter though. Like, healing journey on her own. Yeah. She talks about it in your guys' podcast. Yeah, she does. She does.

I think hers was, she's a fighter though. So there's two ways to handle triggers, run away from them or freaking go at them. And she's that type of person. We just left New York and some people are like, did New York trigger you? She's like, I'm not going to let my husband's old bad decisions rob me of the greatest city in the world. Wow, that's interesting. But that's her framework.

That's interesting. So she thought about that with the bedroom. She thought about that with holding hands. It's like, she can let this trigger her the rest of her life because that represents my husband's infidelity, sexual, emotional, physical, or I can go confront that thing. And she chose that. And there were some really hard moments. Like I've shared, you know, when I would get close to her for the first two or three months, her body would shake and she wouldn't know. That's hard to deal with. She wouldn't feel safe physically with you.

Her brain is here. She's trying to talk to me, but her body is shaking. And that's a very, very, very horrible place to put your wife. And you're talking about shame. Yeah, it doesn't feel good. No, those are the tough ones those are the hardest moments and nothing to do with public thinking anything like that no one sees that the ales in comparison to trying to hold your wife's hand and she's heard her body's petrified of you and that's that

that was part of this part of my journey my consequence Wow so yeah she it has intimacy we found out is is much obviously deeper than sex sex can be sometimes a part of intimacy but we're intimate with our with our with our conversation and our proximity and in our and our outside of just sex it's it's you can look each other in the eyes yeah consideration, care, thoughtfulness. I could be across the room. She's across the room. And I know that somebody in that room sees me.

That's cool. That's a good feeling. Right on that. Yeah. What would you say are the three biggest lessons your wife has taught you in the last four years after all of this scandal has come out? The three biggest that she's taught me. Either through her words or through her behavior or. It's beautiful.

I think she's taught me to be kind to myself. And coming from the person who I harmed the most. That's an interesting messenger. She's taught me to be kind to myself she's taught me to be present and enjoy the blessing because i go from being sad and sorry to like i always got to do something like the the guilt that i fight daily is a is a part of my process because I, it doesn't matter how good it is. It could be like, you know, like we lost everything. So I always felt like I was on this climb to, I know this is good, but I got to do more. I got to do more. I'm so sorry. We're in the spot. I'm

so sorry. Even with my kids, I had to work through some of that guilt. Um, cause anything they do wrong, I'd be like, it's probably because I did all that yeah it's not even on them i had to really step through that so she taught me how to be present and she taught me to love again wow that's what my wife has showed me that's amazing be kind to myself enjoy the blessing and love again yeah it's interesting i you, a few relationships ago that I was in, I, you know, it didn't end well. And no need to go into it all, but I was out of integrity in some of the things and we were off and on and it was, it just didn't end well. And she wanted to go public with all of her thoughts and feelings about it on social media. And during that time, I felt like, what do I do? I was kind of like a mini, very mini moment compared to what you had.

It was like, people are thinking things. They don't know the whole story. Like all these things, right? And I remember feeling a lot of sadness for people that I'd known for years that wouldn't even like just reach out and be like, Hey, what is going on? Can I like hear from you? What's going on? I know that pain. Even if you want, you know, even if you did something out of integrity in the relationship, like can I at least hear from you and just get context or whatever it might be.

Right. Yeah. Then it happened. So it was hurtful. Right. And we talked about this before we started recording how, you know, when this happened for you, some of your closest friends just disowned you and just said, I don't want to have anything to do with you. And obviously that's their own feelings. And I remember feeling like, shoot, I don't know who's on my side, who trusts me, who doesn't trust me. Like what's going on here? You know, this is happening. And it just felt like, Oh, what do we do now? It wasn't to the extent that you had, but it was like a, a mini feeling of that. And I was interviewing a guy at the time.

I kept interviewing, which I don't know how I did it. Cause I was like in my, I was like all over the place. Yeah. And, um, a guy named Robin Sharma, I told him like, this is what's happening. This is what happened. And this is what I'm dealing with. He's probably his 60s, right? Maybe later 60s, I think. And he goes, yeah, I've had a few of these things in my life.

And he sold like, I don't know, 10, 20 million copies of his books. And he's very successful and accomplished. He just said, I've had these things in life where you go through breakdowns, where you go through breakups. And then there's like sadness and there's this and there's hurt. And I've hurt people and they've hurt me. And it's like, and you don't know who your friends are and these different seasons of life. Right. And as a public figure, you're going to have more of that in terms of like, it's going to feel bigger. And he said, a bad day for the ego is a great day for the soul. And for whatever reason that

stuck with me in that moment. I love that. And something unlocked inside of me because I remember thinking about all the challenges that I faced, the pain and the suffering that I faced growing up. Yeah. Things that happened to me, things that I did wrong that caused me to learn lessons

as well as a kid growing up. Breakups, breakdowns, injuries, all these things that were bad, right? Bad for my ego or myself. And for whatever reason in that moment, I was like, oh, every bad thing that's happened has turned me into who I am now and has gotten me to this place. And so this bad situation is going to unlock a different level of hopefully lessons, blessings, abundance, peace, healing, forgiveness, all these different things. If I choose to dive in and own it all and kind of like do the healing journey, it will unlock. Yes. And I remember thinking like, yeah, there's nothing I would change in the past from injuries

and this and breakups and pain because the lesson and people say hindsight is 2020. And so in that moment, I was like, I'm stepping into future hindsight. I'm stepping into two years in the future, 10 years in the future, 20 years in the future. I'm going to look back at this. Like I looked back 10 years ago from being injured and how I thought my life was over from a dream, but it actually set me down a new course that can impact more lives, that can impact me and people around me better. And I go, this is only going to benefit me if I choose to believe it and do whatever I need to learn in this process. If you could go 10 years in the future,

it's been about four now and your healing journey has evolved and you feel a lot more peace four years later. And it's going to be ups and downs. I'm assuming for, for many years, if you could have future hindsight and, you know, 10 years out, why, you could have future hindsight and you know 10 years out why what is the meaning you think you'll give yourself in 10 years for why this has happened oh gosh out of all the layered questions today

that is that's a heavy one my goodness um why won't you even think about politics that's what i don't understand. There's a lane for you. Okay, first thing, just a quick, you said ego, and I don't know if you ever heard someone explain it as ego stands for edging God out. I love that because that is a healthy part of our confidence that we're not talking about, but there is something about eliminating anything that, you know, is, is, is self generated and you just go, God have your way. That's the first. And when you said that, I was like me generated, not God through me. Yes. Yes. Like I can't do

this on my own with God's help. I can do this. So I think I would look back. I think the meaning of our lives is to always point to how good God is, no matter what it is. I wouldn't have chosen this path. I mean, if we're sitting, you know, as 20 year olds, like, hey, write what you want to be doing when you're 40, 45 years old. I would not have said this, but I have changed the way I relate to it as well. And I've changed the way I relate to my sexual abuse, changed the way I related to my own infidelity. And now I look at that as something that has been, it's a crucible moment where you come out of the fire and you're just not the same. So I think the purpose of my life is to always point people to a loving God that can change your life, no matter what it is. So that hasn't changed. that hasn't changed. And I think that we're in a really broken world, Lewis. It's getting darker and darker and darker. That's why we call this thing Lights On, because we still have control over where we shine lights. And I want my life, it might be a dingy light sometimes, it might be not as, but I'm going to try to keep my light on. And I want to tell other people that there's hope,

no matter how dark it is. We're going to keep the lights on over here. We're not going to try to keep my light on. And I want to tell other people that there's hope no matter how dark it is. We're going to keep the lights on over here. We're not going to turn them off. There's no way. And you can't turn yours off. There's people probably watching that have a long time ago shut down the restaurant and the lights are off. You just need one person to just flick one light. Yeah.

And that's how it starts again. Yeah. One of the things that I heard in your podcast, which again, I want everyone to go listen to. It's fascinating to hear you and Laura talk about healing, trauma, dealing with the relationship, the mistrust, the betrayals, friends, family, having kids. It's just a messy situation that you guys have navigated and you open up about how you've navigated, what you guys have learned, vice versa, what you're still learning. She talks about how, you know, you talk about how she, she did nothing wrong. She was always faithful, loyal, trusting, honest,

like whatever you wanted to do. She was there for, you know, supporting wife, mother, you know, leader of the church, like faithful, all these things. But she starts to say, you know what? I never had a voice. I never really owned my power. I kind of just, I don't know if she said blindly trusted, but it's kind of that's what it felt like. Maybe more apt would be co-pilot. Yeah, yeah.

I was codependent, she said. Yeah, yeah yeah she's living a codependent uh relationship and lifestyle and she didn't own her voice and when she went to therapy and healing and head counseling yeah she on she talks about that in your guys's podcast which is really interesting and i want to speak to the women because we have a large female audience, to the women listening or watching who, to give women tools on how they can own their voice and power better in relationships, whether everything is going great and perfect or they're unsure about stuff or they're somewhere between maybe in their first year of relationship or 20 years deep in a marriage. I want women to have tools to own their voice and own their power to get clarity on where they're at in the relationship. Whether it's little white lies, bigger lies, whatever it might be, but to create better relationships with their partners. So good.

And hearing Laura say, I never really had an opinion or a voice. Yeah. I didn't know how to make decisions. Yeah. Hopefully I'm saying what she said correctly. Yeah.

It's in the ballpark. She was like, I needed to learn how to get my power back. Right. That took time. Yeah. I needed to learn

how to practice it because it's something I'd never done in 40 years. Yes. I needed to learn how to do it while healing, trying to forgive him, dealing with friends. Being a mom. Being a mom, all these things. Teenagers. Dealing with my own health. Yes. I need to learn how to do it while healing, trying to forgive him, dealing with friends. Being a mom.

Being a mom. All these things. Teenagers. Dealing with my own health. Yeah. And it's a lot for women. I think it's a lot for women to try to learn how to- The toll is greater.

The toll is great. There's a pressure. There's a- Yeah. Insecurity. There's judgments from other moms. All these different things. Yeah.

insecurity, there's judgments from other moms, all these different things. What do you think Laura would say or what she said to you about how women can own their voice better in any type of intimate relationship, whether there's potential lies or stuff happening or not, but just to like, I'm going to deepen and strengthen my relationship to get clarity if this is the relationship I want to continue thriving into into or potentially it's not the right relationship for me. I think she would say, and we've had so many conversations about this, put the growth of yourself and your own healing, put that first, regardless. So when you get to rehab, they have this beautiful moment where they say, hey, everybody, this is not a marriage restoration place. We don't give it about your marriage. That's not why you're here.

The rehab to fix your life. Interesting. And if you fix your life, your marriage will grow. Get your marriage out of your picture. We are not here to save your marriage. We're not here to help you with your wife. You're here to fix all the lies and the deceit and the crap that you've been doing your whole life that put you in this position. Wow. No one wants to hear about your marriage. Nobody. And I was like, okay, you know, I wish you could make it clearer.

And I got it, though, because I was like, yeah, I'm not here to fix my marriage. My marriage is actually a product of my broken life. Therefore, if I'm healthy, it makes sense that my marriage will be healthy. I think what happens, what Laura has told me with women is they just sometimes can put so much emphasis on, I want to make this marriage work. How can I make my husband understand? How can I support him? How can I make him better? All that stuff is huge and important and valid, but not at the expense of you growing and you thriving and you getting the help that you need and you getting someone to invest in you. And I think she would say, make yourself a priority. Like you have to. And that means doing

separate things. It means getting your own help. It means having your own life. And when that is thriving, this life over here of your husband, I mean, there's this beautiful symmetry that can happen with two healthy people. But normally there's like this horrible thing where the wife is so awesome and she's healthy and she's trying and this husband's is a bum broken he just refuses to change and it's just so sad to see and there's vice versa where it's like you gotta sometimes it's it's more rare but you got a husband who's trying the wife just has given up man it's a it's a it's a dark road but if both people, especially because in our household, I can't speak for any other household, but Laura's roles are immense.

I mean, from mom to friend to wife to lover to provider at times, where is she in all that? And I think it's my job to help protect her ability to hear her voice, know her voice, feel it. And that was just not really on my radar before, to be honest. I mean, I'm not proud of that, but I didn't know that concept like I know it now. I thought I did. But I thought, in my estimation, I was like a trailblazer going to make a path for my family that I love.

And I don't know. I don't know if that's not the way I live now at all. What are the things that men in relationships with women or married men can say to their partners or wives on a consistent basis to make them feel seen, heard, and safe? I will talk about what I do. Yeah. What do you do with Laura? I don't know. To make her feel that way. We have a really cool cadence of my question to her commonly is how can I make you feel safe? Do you feel safe? You say that all the time. Probably every day. Yeah. How can I make you feel safer today? And it's gotten to the point now where she's like, I feel safe. I feel freaking safe. You know, I can't feel safer. And, but that is such a non-defensive, non-aggressive question. It's not loaded. It's,

Hey, do you, how can I make you feel safer today? Do you want my phone? Do we need to go have dinner? Do you want flowers? Like, what can I do? And if that's a part of your routine, I think it's a really powerful thing to have because it's, it has nothing to do with you. It's not like a, okay, tell me what you need just so I can get to this. Like, why don't you do this for me? Cause sometimes I've talked to husbands and a lot, especially in these four years. It's like, I try what you said and it didn't work. I'm like, it wasn't an event, bro. Whatever I explained to you, let me re-explain it. It wasn't a, I'm going to do this and it should produce this. It's a way of living.

It's a way of being. Yes. And being is different than doing. If you just go straight to the do, you might get the have, but you miss out on the be. And I work with some coaches at Novus Global. I don't know if you've heard of this firm. They're phenomenal, but they really go through a concept called be, do, have. Yes. Yeah. Rather than I was a, what do I need to have? What do I have to do? Yeah. If I get around to who I'm being now, my whole life is flipped because of that concept. It's

been really helpful for me. So who do I want to be today? I want to be faithful. I want to be loyal. I want to be comforting and I want to be faithful. I want to be loyal. I want to be comforting. And I want to be energetic. What does a man like that do? He does these seven things. And if you do those seven things, what do you have? Ah, bang. Now we're talking.

But it has to be in that order. It can't be, I need more money. What do I have to do? Well, you're still being a bad steward. So you never grow. So that concept is like,'s not i want to have a wife that has a lot of intimacy wrong who do i need to be to be the kind of man that creates safety that makes my wife want to let her guard down and feel free yeah these are two different

conversations yeah it's powerful so that's that's what we're in the midst of and we'll be in that for the rest of our lives we do not have have it together. We are not, um, you know, marriage gurus. We are marriage survivors and now marriage proponents and marriage. Um, I guess we're excited that we're in, we're in something that is a moving, it's a moving, living relationship. And, uh, it's a cool place to be. How have you navigated? You mentioned money and she, you know, I think when the, one of your podcasts, she was like an Uber Eats driver and doing like multiple jobs at one point, because essentially you went from having money to not making an income. Yeah. Yeah. You know, when, I wouldn't say you were, you were, well, you were kicked out of the church and in a sense of a

community of people and pushed to the side for a season of life for a lot of people, right? And not considered or not given opportunities, right? I mean, how did you make money these last four years? How have you, you know, did people give you jobs? Did you give you a chance somewhere? Did you make your own money? Like, how do you?

Yeah, I'm good at making money. And so that's like, we had to get, I had to put my hand up and ask for some help. So I had some friends that loved us enough to be able to help us. Because we had some money, but like nobody, no one's prepared to blow up your entire life with no like plan. I mean, it was just awful. And so very scary place to be. And by the grace of God, we made it out and we needed help to get to a place where I could in a healthy way, begin to start businesses and do things again.

So for that first chapter, I had a job with an amazing company, a guy in Florida named Joe Johnson, who was just hired me. I said, I need a job and you have availability. And I loved it. I did that for almost well over a year. Laura had two jobs at that time. And we just were like, this is where we're at. Let's go. Make it work. We're going to do it all again. And we have. And, our life is different and it's a beautiful place to be. But yeah, money, we were in love without money. We learned how to love when we had money.

And then we found out again, we're not about money because we still love each other. And now we're doing better than we were. So I think, you know, it's definitely a cool story of God providing. And when people say the church kicked you out, yes and and no there were churches and pastors that definitely helped us out absolutely yeah no fanfare nobody knows uh so that's not a completely fair shot of like oh the church turned their back on you no no mine did right right and that's actually okay because i was you know the way it was handled whole nother combo but there were there was faithful people that helped us out. So we are the products of really graceful, precious friends that were willing to stand with us in the fire, not just with words, with money, with help, with grace. And so I wouldn't be sitting here without them.

And how has your relationship with God changed since all of this? here without them. And how has your relationship with God changed since all of this? So my relationship with God has been, has been strong my whole life, even in the midst of my own sin and pain and lies. And I, it's funny cause I used to work with a lot of, it's still do a lot of drug addicts. And, uh, in New York you find there's like this underbelly of functioning drug addicts, heroin, cocaine, meth, you name it. And there's people this underbelly of functioning drug addicts, heroin, cocaine, meth, you name it. And there's people who look like you and they are dying as addicts. And so that was a, I got, I became one as well.

But I remember talking to a guy who said, man, I still hear God's voice when I'm high. And I know that I'm, I know that's not right, but God never leaves me. I can hear him when I'm high, can hear him when I'm drunk, can hear him when I'm sober. And I used to wonder, I don't know, I mean, maybe, I'm never going to tell somebody, no, you didn't. But I look back on my own life and even while walking towards bad decisions, I can remember vividly feeling compelled to not do this, feeling compelled to not do this or there's a way out and there's an option here. And so I've never been like mad at God except for the convo about how I even got there. But I had so many opportunities, Lewis, to do this right, to own it, to get help. I didn't take it. So I was never like, why God? I'm like, I know why. I'm dead without you. And I just haven't listened. I haven't obeyed.

And this is the price. So I feel like my relationship with God now is much, I think there's a different type of pressure when you're a preacher and it's not good. It's not bad. It's just different. And I've really enjoyed this season of just being able to, everything that I discover, I get to put it back in myself. And most of my life,

I discover something, try to do something, and you try to help other people with it. That's a beautiful thing to do. I love that. I love preaching. It's awesome. But in this season,

it's like, I'm going to preach with my life when I can, but our relationship with God is just, I would use the word, it feels soft, it feels kind, it feels generous, it feels graceful.

That's beautiful. Those are words I would not have attributed before. I felt like I had an agreement with God before that I'm a lost cause, but I'm going to still work as hard as I can for you. Wow. And I want to make God proud. I want to let Jesus who saved me feel like I was worthy of the sacrifice. I'm going to try to do what I can do. You're going to try to perform, right? Yeah, it wasn't like I knew it. It was more like I just knew that I was missing it in some areas, and I still wanted to be effective.

I still wanted to be helpful. missing it in some areas and I still wanted to be effective and I still wanted to be helpful. Yeah. I want to go back for a second to something I meant to ask you about your relationship with Laura, your wife. Esther Perel talks about this and I've had a number of different therapists and experts come on and talk about this concept of gaslighting. And I heard Laura say this in your podcast. She was like, i was gaslit by you for many years right and lots of term narcissism and all these other terms get caught up with gaslighting yeah uh but how did that affect you because again i think a lot of women who have experienced that in some stage of their life yeah sometimes with their father sometimes

with their boyfriend sometimes with whatever whatever. Yeah. Right? Yeah. When she said like, hey, you gaslit me for this many years, how did that impact you or how have you been able to navigate repairing that? Yeah. And again, for the women watching or listening, how can they do their best oh man to sniff out yeah and speak up when they feel like they might be being gaslit by someone in their life so that they yeah it doesn't continue for years yeah so i think laura would say on some of this she should have gone

with her gut and she should have taken it out from me and went to somebody else and said this is what i think is going on not just saying are you lying to me and you say no i'm not lying yeah and then her like okay i'm just gonna trust him she so there was a a moment in our marriage where i did that kind of gaslighting for a while but there was a moment where she had kind of caught me in a lie that was tough for me to get out of really and i she stared at me in the eyes and she said why don't you tell me the truth and i said i'm telling you the truth and i remember we had this combo and she said i don't believe you and that was the that was the day that we we were never the same as a married couple i think in her mind it was like this protection mechanism

where, because up until then, the way- This is pre-scandal. Oh, yeah, yeah. She looked you in your eyes and said- I don't believe you. I don't believe what you're saying. And I'm not going crazy. And I was, I'm not proud of this.

It's hard to talk about, but I think I was at times cruel with the way that I would present my own case. It was a way that was just overpowering. So it'd be like, I'm good with words, you know, as you are. And there's a way you can, you know, manipulate. Language in the conversation and throw a bunch of stuff. And so I think what Laura and I have found out is if you're a a wife there's a line of weird paranoia we're not talking about that we're talking about if you feel something's up you probably need to get someone

you trust to to soundboard a little bit and i think as a husband if there's mass defensiveness with aggression you got serious problems so i would I would on the side of the amazing women that are, are avid listeners for you, it's, it's a red flag for sure. Doesn't mean that there's something going on, but people who have nothing to hide, hide nothing. So if it's, let me see your phone. No. Why? Because of the principle, the principle of like, it's, it's easier to slide that thing over. And then you can talk about where's the distrust coming from, but it's after you have tried to, you know, validate how you feel. Like that's, validation doesn't always mean agreement. It just means I hear you. Okay. That's a thought.

And if you want my perspective, here it is, but to shut it down with the direct you know denial in a fight that typically leads to or is a symptom of or a sign of some stuff going on something that's just a reality i mean i mean over half of marriages end due to infidelity so this isn't like a rare thing this is how this is how you get caught up in. I don't think most men who set out the gaslight are trying to be evil manipulators. I think from my own experience, you just catch yourself in such a stupid position where your only hope is to just cause as much confusion as you can. To get out of it. To get out of it. And that's- Wow.

So, and Laura's talked to a lot of women and sometimes now she'll ask me from my perspective as she's helping somebody, but I think she encourages women to go with your gut, go with your gut and ask somebody about it and try to gauge the reaction of the man in question. Is he open to it? Is he trying to, or is he defensive? Like that defensiveness is a B word that Laura uses a lot. And I still, it's still something I have to continue to always work through. Really?

Because I'm still getting through that. Like from all the way back when I was an abused little guy, when I didn't feel protected, that this, I've always been a fighter. I've always been a guy who's like, tell me the rules so I can break it. Didn't know where that was from. Found out. And because my therapist asked me, she's like, have you always gotten in trouble? I'm like, oh, since kindergarten. She's like, if you're at a red light and nobody else is around are you

running that thing all day i'm like everyone doesn't do that right right i'm like why it doesn't make any logically why would i stay i mean that law is stupid and she's like yeah not everybody thinks like that there's a lot of people who stay at that red light i'm like well those people must be really fun at parties. But the concept of understanding where defensiveness comes from, everything has a root. And once I found out that root, I catch myself all the time now going, well, why am I being defensive? I have nothing to hide. Please start that again. Wow. I had interaction with my neighbor the exact same way. She's an older lady from Ukraine. And we were having a very mild

neighborly conversation about where my dog leaves his and it was going so bad and i went ma'am do you mind if we start over wow and she goes no and i said i'm carl you are whatever i started this this is on me i can make sure my dog doesn't do this. And we laughed and we be, but I had to consciously snap out of this, my fight first, defend first mechanism. So it's not something that I just have arrived at. So I think in general, defensiveness is typically something to look into. What I'm hearing you say is if a woman is experiencing uncertainty in their gut, if a woman is experiencing uncertainty in their gut, lean into it, confront the man they're with.

Yes. And if they still feel uncertain, if that man hasn't made her feel safe to what she needs to feel safe, whether it's justified or not, but it's whatever she needs to feel safe, then maybe you need to find a therapist to talk to, a friend to talk to and say, hey, am I going crazy here?

I feel like I might be gaslit, but he's telling me he's saying the truth. But something still doesn't feel right and start kind of unpacking that and see how to take the next steps to create safety for yourself and clarity within the relationship. We've been doing this for our whole life.

We've been helping couples. And rarely, there is the type of marriage where the wife or the woman is super paranoid and it's crazy. It's few and far between them. Right, it's rare. Very few is like, where did you go? I went to the gym.

No, you didn't. And it's more of probably a wound they haven't healed from someone else doing this to them. And that is a legitimate thing. So for the guy who's sitting at home right now, it's like, it's not me. I'm the other guy. It's like, okay prior wound they haven't healed from someone else doing this to them. That is a legitimate thing. So for the guy who's sitting at home right now, it's like, it's not me. I'm the other guy. It's like, okay, it could be.

But that's why it's always helpful to get another set of eyes in there to say, what's going on? Let me objectively look at your situation and just try to give you all some wisdom. And it's crucial. If we would have done that, who knows? Right, right. Man man this is powerful i'm curious how has um how do you feel about the the leader of the church who kind of helped you brought you up what's your relationship with like him like now what's his name brian brian brian houston yeah what how do you feel about him what is your relationship or lack of with him now four years after this?

No relationship, zero communication. Talked. I think we had one email exchange after I was fired. And we haven't talked since. Really? It's nobody's fault. It's just kind of the way it is. I don't harbor any bitterness towards him.

I think in that way, our relationship, I failed him as one of his leaders. And that's the reality. And he failed you in certain ways. Sure. Absolutely. But I failed first. So that's what I get to focus on and how he handled it afterwards. That's another discussion for other people. It doesn't do anything for me. So I have learned how to stay free of offense is to look at myself in the mirror. Where did I go wrong? What did I do? And then when I feel the temptation to point fingers or want to get mad, which is there,

it can be sometimes often. Other times I don't think about it. There'll be some days where I'll just be consumed with anger or bitterness or whatever. I just try to give grace because I need it. I need people to give me grace. So I know the measure that I give will be give it back to me. So I think about that often when I want to judge anybody. I'm like, I don't want that kind of judgment coming back at me.

Did you used to be more judgmental pre-scandal? No, no. I think subconsciously I was way less judgmental because of the stuff that i was hiding because you knew you had some you're like oh it's okay you can you know i don't judge you because i know the back of my mind yeah i'm doing some of this it was it was it was a it was a juggle i mean because there are times where i would be hardcore almost legalistic on some things and other things super gracious so that was a confusion in my own mind for my own life. But with Brian, I focus on the good too. Some people go through a horrible situation and they don't grieve

properly. So all they remember is the pain. I got great help with grieving. So I grieved my relationship with one of my spiritual heroes. He was that. He's like, I have the greatest dad in the world. Brian was the next thing I had to a man that I really looked up to and trusted. He helped me, gave me a chance to do great things, and it went bad. Yeah. express this and feel this, that when a man or woman does a bad behavior or hurts someone or does something that they shouldn't do legally, morally, ethically, all the different things that you could do, but they're not always that way. And a lot of the times they are also doing some good or kind or generous or gracious or all these different things, graceful.

How do we navigate this, the dynamics of, okay, there's a person in my life who did something really bad to me, but they've also done a lot of good. Are they a bad person? Are they evil and wrong? Should I never speak to them again? You know, it's's like how do you forgive how do you navigate the mess of human beings when we make mistakes i don't know how to answer this question but i'm chris i'm not sure there is one answer to that yeah i actually think it depends on what's your outcome case by case what do you want do you want justice do you want accountability

do you want peace do you want grace i think it's just everyone has to make that decision of like, what am I after? So like my relationship with Brian, am I after justice? Am I after accountability? Some of that stuff might be required. I'm after peace in my soul. So that's my choice. How do I get peace in my soul? I forgive and I give grace and I leave the other stuff to other people and God. That's my choice. How do I get peace in my soul? I forgive and I give grace and I leave the other stuff to other people and God. That's my choice. If I wanted justice, maybe I'd have a different response. So I think it's, what's your vision is a great question to ask people when you're mad. What's the end of the road here? If you don't know it, you got to rethink it because then you're just wandering around swinging at stuff you don't even know. Like my goal for this situation here is to have a friendship again so i'm going to navigate it a certain way yeah my goal here is peace and i never want to talk to them again this is how i'm gonna have i'm creating a boundary yeah yeah both are healthy

do you think you could ever have a relationship with brian again uh i don't i don't know i don't know how to answer that i think yeah uh the short answer is God can do anything. Life is long. Yeah, sure. I'm good. Like, I don't think we'd ever have a, I can't say that. I don't know. It's not on my radar.

Not something you're thinking about, yeah. I got so many things I got to focus on that it's like, God bless you. I don't care. Yeah, yeah. I don't care what you say, what you do. I hope the best for you. Yeah. Because I know that they've walked through some horrible things as well sure sure if you could go if you could sit in front of your 20 year old self right now

with the wisdom you have the lessons you have the experience you have knowing how you were thinking back then the stuff you were carrying the lies you were holding on to within yourself the shames the insecurities back then and you could give a personal sermon to yourself yeah from this perspective yeah what would you share? And if you had to completely eliminate anything about you and your ego, and it only came from the best way possible, it came from God through you to this 20-year-old version of you, what would you say? Okay. There are two answers here. One is how much do I want to play this hypothetical game? Because there is a part of me, I've been a youth pastor as well, and I have a teenage son.

My brain at 20 is not the same brain. You're not thinking a certain way. So I preach messages to 20-year-olds. They're not going to receive it. And they nod. They don't receive it. They can't. They don't have the function.

So for me to sit down with my 20-year-old self and say, hey, bro, you got sexual brokenness. That's not your fault. But my gosh, where that leads. So much pain and carnage. So here's what we're going to do. We're going to send you to this place. And you're going to talk about all the embarrassing things that you've done. And you're going to.

This 20-year-old would have been like. Won't do it. Screw you. Get the hell out of here. Like, I'm not doing that. I'm good. I'm running. God's forgiven me. I'm saved saved i'm filled with the holy spirit i'm doing good things in my life i'm gonna get through it god is a god that brings freedom i'm gonna pray and i'm gonna get boom and

some of those things are true but to sit there with that 20 year old and say hey this stuff is deep deep deep deep deep it takes a lot of works. Let's do it now. Oh, Lord Jesus. I'm glad you said that because I can relate to that. People would tell me stuff when I was a teenager, be like, I'm just going to go after my dreams and do this and don't tell me what to do. You know, it's like you may not be in a space to hear it,

but let's imagine. If I was. So I'm glad you said that because I think people, you need to be open to receive a message also. And it builds regret. Well, what can we do about that? Of course. Yeah, yeah.

But if we go back and we do it and it's possible. And say you're a completely open soul. Open 20-year-old. Open mind. Open heart. And you say, whatever message I need to hear. Okay. Not that this is going to change your life, but it's like if you could just speak a message to your younger self what's funny about answering questions is you float in and out on

your podcast of remembering you have millions of people listening and then nobody it's very tricky uh because you you feel totally free just talking oh yeah yeah let me just uh make sure that i'm answering so i think i would i would say to that guy um let's start to feel all your feelings what are they i'm not going to judge them i'm not going to put you down you're not going to get in trouble let's talk about how you feel and i would lay out all these topics and i'd say how do you feel about sex how do you feel about this how do you feel about that let's just talk about it that is the beginning of freedom and there is some backwards christian teaching that i probably was a propagator of which is like hey

die to your flesh die to your feelings which is true to that but i'm not sure everything's flesh i'm not sure everything is about this murderous killing of i think there are things in us as humans that we need to talk about and i have a friend his name is Steve he lives here in California and he taught taught me this principle of like if you had all your feelings around a table who gets to talk oh that's interesting who gets to talk all of them should be able to talk it doesn't mean they get the chair but it means that wounded 15 year old he gets to talk the lawyer in you he gets to talk the guy that's bitter he gets to talk that's how you get to know who you are who's in control who's who's weighing in too much here

there's a part of me that really doesn't like people man i'm just gonna say it now i'm gonna direct that guy where to go i'm gonna stay in control of it but that's there interesting it's not right it's not wrong it's just how i feel Oh my gosh, Lewis, even talking about it feels good. It's like, this is beautiful. Like we are so quick to judge ourselves and to hurt ourselves and to try to kill the bad stuff in us. And there's some beauty in that.

And it's very dangerous because you might be killing something that's in the process of change. Oh man, that is so true. Maybe you just hadn't evolved yet. That is so true. Maybe it's on the journey somewhere. Can you imagine?

Like I have a 15-year-old son. You can't imagine shutting him down forever because he was working something out. It doesn't make any sense. If someone tried to say that to my son, he has a feeling right now, and you shut him down, you kill him. I would obviously defend my son because he's growing. And there are parts of us, I think, that can use a little bit less judgment, a little bit more discovery. And from there, let's go. Let's talk. This doesn't mean you're acquiescing to every feeling and you're that part of the weird generation we live in that tells young people to

go with what you feel, which is like, I appreciate the sentiment, but if you live a life according to how you feel, we know where that leads. There has to be more to life than going with how you feel. Our feelings are so important, though. So what do we do? The world that I came from, it was all or nothing. Really? It was like feelings don't matter. You know, kill them.

Stand on top of them. Be empowered. Do what God says to do. It's this very empowering version of life change. Okay. And then we used to judge everybody else. Really? Therapy people, the feelers, the inner child. What's wrong with these people? The inner child people. Oh, here we go with this guy again. Oh, I actually had someone tell me recently that when I use the word addict, I'm using victim language. Oh yeah. And this guy's a smart dude. And I went, wow, man, that's really interesting.

I remember I used to think like you. So I'm not mad. I'm not judging you, but I'm going to keep using it. Number one. Number two, I passionately disagree that by me admitting that I have addictions, that I'm using victim language. You're hearing what you want to hear. It's not an excuse because I had an addiction to something. It doesn't mean that it absolves my behavior. It just means I'm going to fricking fix it because I know exactly what it is. It's not just a bad day. It's not just a propensity. It was an addiction. So if that's victim language to somebody, God bless you. To me, it's overcoming language. When you can actually be strong enough to say stuff like that, man, some of the strongest men I've ever seen have been in a rehab for people that have blown

up their lives. And they're not strong because of their possessions. They're strong because of what they're willing to change, what they're willing to talk about. Yeah. What was the biggest lesson from rehab that you learned that how you learned growing up in church kind of dismantled certain things about your relationship to self or viewing other people who had been through challenges what did that

month-long in rehab teach you my gosh the longest month of my life um they call it hugging the cactus which is my favorite way to describe what rehab is like it's like you got to do it and it's horrible it's painful hugs a hug um i think one of the things that I realized in rehab, especially by faith, is that I think I was cutting the power of God short by not understanding how many people could help. So I am a guy that believes in the power of prayer. I believe that God is a redeemer. He's a forgiver, that he can break the yoke, break the chains. That's the God I believe in a hundred percent. The way he does that though, can sometimes be through a doctor in a white jacket, can be through a counselor. It can be through someone who's not even a Christian,

or believes what I believe, like there's so many things. And I think I was such a true blue believer that I'm going to willpower this. I didn't see it like that. I thought it was God power and I was mistaken. Really. I was proud in my own ability. I'm going to get through this. I'm going to overcome this. And rehab, I left, I left like this, huh? I'm going to be all right. I'm going to be all right. I'm not crazy. I'm not a bad person. Um, I have some issues and I'm going to break in, spend the rest of my life uprooting them, making sure they don't transfer into my kids. I'm going to tell as many people as I can that freedom is available.

That's what I learned at rehab. And I got a lot of work ahead of me and I'm going to embrace it. I'm not going to reject it. And I just can't trade that experience for anything. I mean, it was an awful, beautiful mess there. Wow. Beautiful, man. Do you ever see yourself wanting to lead a church again

in some way? No and yes. I think that no and that it's not on my heart. It's not on my mind. No plans. I do love reading silly articles about myself still.

Still fun once in a while. We have this big rollout. We're going to do a podcast in a church. It's like, hey, hate to break it to you. That's not us anymore. There's no rollouts. We don't live that life anymore. We're doing a podcast because it's great and it's a venue and an avenue that's smart and we're going to crush that. That's it. There's no church coming after this. But life is long and I am open to whatever I feel compelled to do. If I were to ever do a church again, it would be completely different and it would be vetted and I'd have

everybody that I trust and love stand in front of me and agree that it's a good idea. But that is, I can't fathom that being within the next 10, 15, 20 years of my life. I got so much I want to do and the world is so big. I could do a lot of great things and we're seeing that already. So I feel like, especially because of the weight of what we went through, I think the appropriate thing to do is just continue to change my life and see where we end up. So I'm open to it. I have no plans, but man, I never would have thought I'd be sitting here talking to you in Los Angeles, California, talking about this. Yeah, man.

So, I mean, far be it from me to tell God what my plans are. What's going to happen. Yeah, exactly. Here's how this is going to go. Yeah, yeah. Here's my plan. He's going to say, nope, that's not it. I want people to, a couple final questions for you.

But, again, we're talking about a new podcast that you and your wife have launched called lights on with carl lance and the first few episodes are fascinating uh fascinating and um you learn a lot you learn a lot about you guys you learn about a lot about human nature and challenges that people go through and how to navigate getting through them and realizing that there is peace, there is forgiveness, there is freedom on the other side if you choose to go through it all the way. So it's beautiful to watch, man. Thank you, man. And I want people to check it out. Are you on social media right now as well?

I am. I see you're posting your clips, but have you been posting other stuff too, like Carl Lentz on Instagram? I'm going real slow into that for my own sobriety because i was out of it for so long and i didn't miss it for a millisecond you weren't on social media for years huh no for years i put like two posts up in that was it years just just just because and so now i'm on instagram uh and facebook but i have uh some people helping me with it so i can keep it

um a distance keep it off me. And I'm just using it for the delivery right now. Not the interaction. Yeah, that's good. So I'll answer five or six people just because I appreciate them being there on the comment thing. But like, I'm not wading through it going, does this guy approve? Is this guy okay?

Like I've been through too much to do that. So I am back on social media in what I believe to be a healthy, healthy way. What are the lessons you learned from being off social media for almost four years? That it is very, very, very effective if you use it wisely. Very, very deadly if you don't. There's really no middle ground. So if you are prepared to handle social media in a responsible, diligent, intentional way, it's a beautiful thing. in a responsible, diligent, intentional way is a beautiful thing.

But if you let your guard down, it's going to be a doorway to images that you don't want to see, don't need to see, voices that have no right to spend any time in your head. Social media is a conduit of that. Like who on earth told us that we get to open this phone and let the opinions of many torment our lives? What are we doing? But we all do it. We all really do look at comments and approval. We know that it's stupid, and we all do it. I got some likes, got some comments, got some interactions.

It's like, all right, we're going to play the game if we have to, but this is so stupid. That doesn't mean it was good. Right. all right, we're going to play the game if we have to, but this is so stupid. Like that doesn't mean it was good. Right. The fact that, you know, your podcast is huge and great. And yes, it has mass interaction, but that's not where your value is. It just happens to sometimes line up with legit things. But I have a feeling you would still do what's on your heart to do,

regardless of if it was filled with fanfare. I just have a feeling. Yeah. And there's a lot of people like you. I started it with no one following or listening. Nobody was watching. Nobody was listening. And it was like one person at a time. And I just did it because I enjoyed it. I'm still doing it now because I'm fascinated by human beings and how we can all improve our lives. Yeah. But that's interesting. Yeah. I spent seven days recently without my phone on and it's just freeing to even just take a day or take hours where you're not on your phone is a freeing experience. It creates space. You can think.

Well, your brain is wired to not do that. Have you ever reflected on your life and been like, man, I wish I was on social media more? Never. I never was. Scary thing is to say, how many years have i been on social there you go like how much time have i consumed just on my phone yeah i've never once been like man when roman was five and you know my girls were little baby girls i wish i would have sat there and scrolled longer like it just never happened so i want that to be a part of my decision making i

have gone i wish i would have spent more time looking at my eyeballs. Yeah. And just enjoying some moments. So that means in this chapter, I'm not messing around. Yeah. I mean, growing up in Christian science, Mary Baker Eddy, who wrote in the book Science and Health, she said, Stand Porter at the door of thought. Because we need to be guarding our of thought because we need to be guarding

our minds more. We need to be guarding our thoughts more and stand Porter and make sure we say, oh, I see that. I don't want anyone to be looking at that. And man, have I been guilty of looking at the wrong stuff for most of my life, right? And those images influence your brain, your thoughts, your mind, your dreams, influence your DNA. The more you are consuming things, listening, viewing, looking at, whatever it might be, and then fantasizing, thinking about, being angry about, whatever it is. Ruminating. Yeah. And one of the things my dad did that I really appreciated as an adult when we were growing up is when they were commercial, we didn't watch the news because he didn't want us to watch fear-based entertainment.

Wow. So there was always bad stuff happening on the news. So he's like, why am I going to show this? We can read something and read this happened today. Okay. I'm informed on the news. I don't need to be entertained by fear to create a reaction of more fear in me. So we didn't watch the news, but he was informed and read the paper. And we never watched commercials when we were watching TV because the commercials were filled with prescription drugs. And here's what's wrong with people, And here's what you need to solve it. Medication. Most of the commercials you watch today are about the medications based on a pain you have. True. And he didn't want us to be influenced on the material part of our body and needing medication to heal versus prayer, harmony, correct thinking to help heal.

My dad was not perfect by any means and had his own challenges and lies and problems that I had to deal with as well. But those things were a great reminder of standing Porter at the door of our mind and our thoughts and protecting ourselves from images. And Martha does a great job of reminding me you know i think men can probably uh you know allow images to come in more frequently in terms of you know just in general and she's always like we've got to make sure we're guarding our minds from news content from images from whatever we're seeing that's and i and our intention here at school of greatnessness is to hopefully put out positivity, hopefully put out as much information that is good or that can help people.

Yeah. And I'm grateful that you guys are putting out that information as well on your show. And before I ask a couple of final questions, Carl, I want to acknowledge you for your journey, your healing journey, sharing with others that healing is possible. Your healing journey privately with your wife and your family that most people will never know about what you guys have gone through.

Obviously, you're sharing some of it. And I acknowledge you for just owning the things that you're ashamed of, that you aren't proud of, that you did to hurt yourself, that you did to hurt others, because it's really hard to do. It's really hard to do. So I acknowledge you for owning these things and for saying,

I'm going to figure out whatever the meaning is of this and make the most of it to serve, which it sounds like you're doing. I want to serve. Whether five people listen, five million people, if it's working at a job, if it's doing this,

if it's just, it's what it sounds like you're doing now. So I acknowledge you for the journey you're at right now. I'm excited to see how you continue to serve people and how you continue to live your life. And I'm just grateful that you were so open and honest here with everyone.

I think it's really powerful. So I appreciate you. You don't leave a lot of room. You don't leave a lot of room to fake it. And I say this with that standing, you say porter? Stand porter at the door of thought. So there's an old writer, Paul, the Apostle Paul, take captive every single thought.

That is, to me, where this keeps coming back to. It's like we have to really be careful that we don't take for granted that the stuff we're thinking is good or bad. We need to check it out. But to me, that's such a concept that it flows in so many different ways. But when I read that in the Bible, I'm just like, I need to take captive every thought. And that to me, I've had to change my mind. I had to change what I say. And in turn has changed who I am, but it started for me changing my mind. Wow. That's beautiful, man. This is a question I ask everyone towards the end.

It's called the three truths. Another hypothetical question. You've had many of them today. If you could imagine that you get to live as long as you want. Yep. You're very old and you live a life of service and you see your kids grow up. All the good things happen. But it's the last day on earth for you. And for whatever reason, everything you've shared to the world, your podcast, this interview, books, anything you've ever put out there, we don't have access to. It's gone from this physical world. Got to go with you or somewhere else. But you get to leave behind three truths. And this is all the world would have of your

content. It's kind of like what would be the three biggest lessons you would share if it was the last day of your life and we don't have access to any other content that you have? What would those three truths be that you would leave behind? Wow. Unbelievable question. Did you think of that? Yeah. Well, I have a feature on Lights On where I end it with asking people the three truths like this, just on the spot. I think the first thing

I would say is that God loves people and he wants to have a relationship with you. So don't settle for distance when you can have intimacy with God almighty and Jesus saves. Like that to me is a beautiful thought that I would, that's the very, if I had to go today, I'd want people to, what did that guy say? He said that God loves us. Wow. I'd be happy with that. So the next two might be good, but man, that's the, that's the one that is the, has been the most powerful for me when it went from religion to Jesus is real. I'm not crazy. The grace of God changed my life. Like that to me is something I would love people to think about. And then the second thing would be, um, be kind.

And then a period, because to me, kindness is such a beautiful currency that the reason why we don't see it in our world a lot is because people don't see it in their own lives a lot. And we can't figure out why people are so nasty. Can you imagine people that are nasty to you? Can you imagine what their head must be like? Like even going back into social media, I see some of the comments people leave me and I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm not even mad. You must be brutal to yourself. So every day I try to remind myself, probably going to have to end up getting a tattoo because I'm that slow, that thick headed. Be kind today. What does that mean? I don't know.

Let's go find out. Everywhere. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then be present. Because I feel like I spent a lot of my life going to the next thing, going to the next thing, going to the next thing and never enjoying what I actually had. And I never want to fall victim to that. Again, I look back at my life and I'm like, I never ever really took good control of being present. A lot of it was my

sin. A lot of it was my brain. A lot of it was my life and someone who was just regular human pressure. Now I'm forcing myself and I'm an ADHD 45 year old bro. I'm not designed to be able to be the guy who meditates, but I have chosen to become a man that is willing to be present. And that means there are times where I need to sit down and I go, you know what? It's all gonna be okay. It's all gonna be okay.

So let me be present. And it's changed my life. Beautiful, man. One final question, but I want to make sure people check out the podcast, Lights On, Carl Lentz and your wife, Laura, that shares so much. So again, if you're a woman watching or listening,

check it out because you hear a lot from Laura sharing all of her thoughts, all of her feelings, what she's dealt with, how she's recovering, how she's learned to forgive herself, you, all the different things. Yeah. And it's a fascinating conversations, multiple series, multiple episodes in that series. You got your clips on social media, Carl Lentz on social media, Instagram and everywhere else. And then the B side is the platform that my podcast is on.

So it's a platform built around vulnerability. It's almost like a recovery thing in that like the only thing that platform wanted to do was to build a place where you couldn't get canceled and you had to be honest. So only a couple of voices on there, of which I'm one, but I jumped at the chance to work with them because the team is epic. But the platform, hopefully, is going to be

what the future looks like for every platform. So it's like, from the founder to everybody on it, our one goal is, are we being honest?

That is what the B-side is. So people can check out that app. It's a B-side app. It's just cool. It's just, it's stuff like, it's men like you. People who are changing what people think about vulnerable men.

I doubt anybody would look at you and go, that's a weak dude. That day is over. People look at you, this huge, strong, charismatic, kind man and go, oh, man, he's vulnerable. Imagine if our world acquainted men with being kind and vulnerable sure what kind of world will we have absolutely man that's my mission too man I mean obviously we're all imperfect in our own ways but you know trying to become better every day is the goal same uh final question what is your definition of greatness oh I think greatness is staying true to what you feel God has called you to do. That's great.

It's the pursuit. It's not necessarily the outcome because there are some things that look greater. Like someone might have billions of dollars, but it wasn't great. And conversely, there's a man that's loved his wife, raised his kids, been faithful in his community. And that's what God called him to do. And he was faithful to it. So I feel like that to me, greatness is, we're all going to get called to do different things, but how did you, did you stay faithful to it?

Wow. That's what a great man is. I hope today's episode inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a rundown of today's show with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me, as well as ad-free listening experience, make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel on Apple Podcast. If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend over on social media or text a friend. Leave us a review over on Apple Podcast and let me know what you learned over on our social media channels at Lewis Howes.

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