The School of Greatness - Why Grit Isn’t Enough to Get What You Want | Angela Duckworth

Episode Date: September 8, 2026

Angela Duckworth, the psychologist who made “grit” a household word, sat down with Lewis and confessed something her research almost missed. Effort alone doesn’t build a great life. The situation you’re in does, and no one shapes that situation more than the person you marry. She traces it back to her own mother, a gifted painter who gave up her art for fifty years married to a man who walked past her paintings without a word.Then Angela goes further, into a marriage crisis she and her husband Jason never talked about publicly. Both of them were try-harder people who worked themselves into misery during the 2008 crash, until Angela told him on a walk that she cried every night and didn’t want to be married anymore. What saved them wasn’t more grit. It was therapy, three therapists between two people, and a willingness to change the situation instead of just pushing through it.Lewis matches her story with his own, requiring therapy before he’d even commit to dating Martha, because every past relationship had only gone to therapy once it was already collapsing. Angela ties it back to the Pygmalion effect. Your confidence is borrowed from the people who believe in you before you believe in yourself.By the end you’ll want to look around at your own life and ask who’s actually bringing out your best. Angela’s mother didn’t paint again until her husband died. Now, at 91, she paints every day.Situated: Find the People and Places That Bring Out Your BestGrit: The Power of Passion and PerseveranceAngela's InstagramAngela's LinkedInAngela's FacebookIn this episode you will:Discover why proximity, not just grit, determines whether your effort ever pays offLearn how changing your situation, not trying harder, rescued a marriage on the brink of divorceRecognize the fundamental attribution error and why the power of situation is invisible until you name itChallenge the shame around therapy and see how it can rebuild a struggling relationshipUncover the Pygmalion effect and how others' belief in you shapes your own confidenceFor more information go to https://lewishowes.com/1977More SOG episodes we think you’ll love! Get More From Lewis! Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

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Again, thank you so much for being here and listening to the School of Greatness. Make sure to follow right now to stay up to date on the latest and greatest. Effort isn't enough. Grit's not enough. If you don't have those support structures, if you don't have the mentors, the teammates, the culture, I think they make all the difference. I mean, you know, trying hard in a losing situation, you know, only leads to really like frustration and burnout. A psychologist, a professor, and a bestselling author.

It's sold over 5 million copies of her book called Grit, the one and only, Dr. Angela Duckworth. If you are trying, and then you're trying harder, and then you're trying harder still, and you do not feel like you are making progress in your marriage, in your career, in your friendships, I think that is a time you should stop, ask yourself, is it the situation?

Like, do I need to pivot and put myself in a better situation? you know, of course, like then keep trying. I mean, I'll never stop believing and try harder. But that, I think, is a signal. And I think I missed that signal. When does someone know that they should change their environment? There's this research that I didn't do, but I think it's like elemental to everything that I say.

I'm curious to ask you first, if you could have all the grit in the world, but not have proximity to the right environment, do you believe we could still accomplish our big goals and dreams? I don't. I think the answer to that is no. Grit is great. I haven't given up on grit. In fact, I think the final common path to greatness is always going to be a path of consistent effort. But effort isn't enough. Grit's not enough. I think if you don't have, if you don't have those support structures, if you don't have the mentors, the teammates, the culture, even something as mundane as like the physical environment that you need. I mean, if you're a swimmer, like, how long is the pool, right?

Like, and how heated is the pool? These seemingly trivial sometimes, I guess, like things that are outside of you, I think they make all the difference. I mean, you know, trying hard in a losing situation, you know, only leads to really like frustration and burnout. When does someone know that they should change their environment? I don't think we know as soon as is optimal, to be honest. You know, there's this research that I didn't do, but I think it's like elemental to everything that I say in this book. I want to credit Dick Nisbet and Lee Ross, these two psychologists who studied what's called the fundamental attribution error. And in particular, this guy, Lee Ross, had a personal experience that led him to discover that when we think of ourselves and others, we often ignore the situation.

So you ask this question, like, when do we know it's time to change our situation? I'll tell you about what he found, which is that we are so oblivious to our situation that, you know, it can kind of, you know, be like the water of a fish. It's like, I think you should be swimming over here, but like you're so habituated to it. You're so used to it. You're so used to it that you're blind to it. His personal experience was he's getting his PhD and he's at a roundtable. And of course he knows his research well. Like it's all he's been doing. But the. the inquisitors, right, these professors who were like basically there, like asking him like incredibly random and like sort of like abstruse questions. Like, what was the wavelength of light used in this experiment? And you know, honestly, instead of feeling smart, he felt stupid. And instead of feeling like an expert, he felt like a total rookie. And he passed, right? But that wasn't the end of the story. So then he becomes a professor at Stanford. And now he's on the literally on the other side of the table, right? So now there's this PhD student, and they're defending their

thesis, and he's the one, like, asking all the clever questions. And, you know, you can go through anything and be like, oh, on page 168, you say, like, what did you mean by that? And suddenly he's like, they're, I don't know. Right. The students like, you know, they're falling apart. And yeah, yeah, the student felt stupid and then he felt smart. And I think from that personal experience and then, like, a whole lifetime of research, he found that, you know, so often will be like, oh, this person doesn't know anything. I don't know anything. Oh, this person knows a lot. I know a lot. We think it's the person. It's really the situation. So he later wrote a book called The Person and the Situation was not a bestseller. It dramatically influenced the work of people like Malcolm Gladwell,

Michael Lewis. It's an academic book. And the book says, the situation is incredibly powerful. But like gravity, it's invisible and ignorable. And so, So I think your question is a great place to start, which is like, how do you know? And I think oftentimes, like, not soon enough. Like, not soon enough. Like, maybe I should, maybe I should be like on a different team. Maybe, maybe a different coach. Like, maybe a different zip code, right?

Like, maybe my kitchen isn't set up the way my kitchen should set up. Maybe my office isn't set up the way my, maybe my nightstand isn't set. Like, we are ignoring a situation that I think we shouldn't ignore. Uh-huh. It's interesting you're saying this because I had a guy who just graduated who came to my office yesterday to ask me some questions from one of the schools that I went to in college. And he was asking me, like, if you could go back to my age, 22, and if there's anything you would change, is there anything? And I'm like, well, you know, everything happens for a reason. But I'm like, listen, I wish I would have married the right person sooner.

I wish I would have been, because I was in multiple long-term relationships. Yeah. And it took a lot of energy being with the wrong people. And I don't make, I don't, I don't put any blame on the women that I was with and dating. Like, it's not their fault. Yeah. I chose to be with them. I chose to stay with them longer than I knew I should have.

Yeah. I go, the only thing is like, you're going to be tempted. You're a good looking guy. You're fit. You're this. You've got passion. You're smart. You've already got a great, like a job opportunity.

And like, just make sure you date the right girl. And date with the intention to marry. Yeah. Just full around because it might be fun in the moment. but it might drain your energy from actually going after what you want. So I'm curious how in your research or in your perspective, if you have the right proximity and the right situation in the right environment and grit, but you're with the wrong person.

Intimately, how much does that impact your ability to succeed or fail? You know, I'm married. I wouldn't be in this chair right now if I weren't married to Jason Duckworth. And it's not because it doesn't have anything to do with grit, right? So, like, I will tell you, and I also wish I had married him earlier. How long have been married? I've been married. I don't know.

I almost lose track. Definitely over 25 years. Okay. That's funny. Yeah. Like 25 plus, right? So that's what silver anniversary? I think you're like post-silver anniversary.

I did try, though, by the way. I've always dated according to your philosophy, which is like, are we not getting married? Right. Like, yeah, like next. I think the average amount of time that I dated a guy was like four weeks and there were a lot of them. But I did meet Jason Duckworth. But let me let me say that I think when you talk about your situation, like, yeah, it's like, you know, what's in your cup? It's like, you know, do you have food on your counter?

It is also and obviously most importantly, I think, like the person that you're with, I cannot tell you how, how, how. Like, I think Angela Duckworth is great. Angela Duckworth and Jason Duckworth, like, so much greater. Really? So this wasn't all you. When I did finish this book, which was a very long, hard road, which we could talk about or not, but I, it was like, I think I had never been so humbled as in the five-year journey of writing this book.

You know, not just the most intellectually challenging work, like, honestly, the most personally an emotionally challenging work. When it finally was done, I could only use we, not I. I was like, we have a book. Like, now we're going to get published. One of the reasons, and you tell me, I'd love to hear more about your marriage. I feel like I no longer conceive of my journey in life as being, like, me trying to do things. I mean, I really do think of, like, you know, I have to write an op-ed with Jason

Really? Yeah. I mean, at like, he was not a psychologist. He's a real estate developer, by the way, residential real estate. But he's your psychologist because you've married to you in a sense. Like he understands you psychologically, emotionally. He understands me. He, you know, he's my intellectual sparring partner.

I think that the idea that like I am just myself and then like occasionally I get feedback doesn't do justice to like how. important he is. And again, like going back to like you and your situation, I will go all Eastern on you because I have a Chinese descent. So I have a little bit of the right. Born in Philadelphia, but my parents came from China. And they, my dad in particular, would talk about how different it was to come from the East and the West. And so I will tell you what I think my father was saying to me. When he said like, when you are in the West, it's like you're an individual. And you know, you have a resume and a career. And yes, you have relationships.

with a, you know, romantic partner, with friends, with society. But it's your dream. But it's your dream. You know, like, you're the silhouette. He was like, in the East, speaking personally, he was like, that's not how we think of it. Like, you're part of a whole. You're part of a society. You know, your relationships are not, like, separate from you.

So, so, yeah, like, yeah, my husband, the real estate developer, I think in this just, in the most profound way, I'm struggling to find the words for it is so much part of. of anything that I could call success. And by the way, not just this book, like the last one. So I... That's what I mean in your whole career. Like your success as a professor and all the awards you've achieved and the books and the sales, like everything. Like everything. Would you be where you are without having the right marriage partner?

I would not be where I am if I didn't have this marriage. But you had the talent. You had the smarts, the skills, the other relations, the network. You know, would you, like, why wouldn't you be where you are without the right intimate partner. I'm going to answer it and I also just want to add, I know a very successful Silicon Valley venture capitalist who off the record said, I mean, he came to me and he was like, I always looked for grit. And I said, great, so do I. I asked him, what else do you look for? He said, do you want to really know? I was like, he's like off the record. I look for somebody who's in a very stable,

strong, you call a romantic relationship, right? Like marriage would be the most common form of such a relationship. And I was like, oh, that is so interesting. So let me just say that I'm not alone in believing that, you know, the two of you are like a unit, you know, like it's not even possible to really conceive a, I mean, I will answer you, but I love to hear what, like, when you would say the same question. I, you know, do feel like at some point during the day when we like part ways, we have breakfast and then like I go off to work as a psychologist, you know, and I'm on conference calls he's not on. And I like, sit and stare at a blank page and he's not standing next to me. I mean, obviously, I'm also

independent. I don't think any of this like diminishes. Like, oh, you know, I don't feel like I take credit. But everything I do, I think of us like trying to embark on this challenge. Like, I didn't know how to open this book, honestly. I was like, how do I explain to people the power the situation because the situation is so abstract. It's like, how do I explain to them that it's everything and everyone around them? It's your environment. It's your, the mentors around you, the school, you know. And maybe I'm going to call you, Lewis, right? But you weren't around and I'm not married to you, right? So I'm like sitting there struggling and, um, and Jason said, why don't you write about our marriage? And I was like, okay. He just wanted you to brag about

him, you know? He did ask actually just the other days. Like, have you been telling people that, How amazing I am. Yeah. I just say in so many words, I was like, I was like, I don't know that I'm mentioning that enough. But it was such a generous act. And the reason is that he didn't want me, or wasn't suggesting that I write about, like, all the good parts. He was suggesting that I write about a crisis that we had in our marriage. I mean, it's like the most courageous act, something that we hadn't publicly talked about at all.

What happened? And, yeah. So I'll tell you this story. And again, I think, like, it's just so indicative of, like, how we are doing this, like, in the deepest way together. So I met Jason Duckworth. I was in my 20s. I, you know, had this dating philosophy. It was like, we're not getting married next. Not going to, but when I met him, I was like, let's do it. Like, let's go. Like first couple days or first couple weeks. You're like, hey. A couple hours. I had a dream the first night. And I wrote down in my journal, so I have like written

evidence that this is true. I'm not making this up. I had the dream that we were getting married. I was walking down the aisle and I couldn't see the room and then he turned around and it was this guy it just met named Jason. And so I told him about it the second time I saw him and I think he thought it was crazy. Crazy. Yeah, I guess that's like, yeah, natural response. I was 26, I think. I think I'd just turned 26. I just turned 26.

I was like 26 and two days. And so we had a head over heels romance. Like there were some ups and downs. but like, oh my God, I was in love. So that's not what I wrote about. I didn't write about like, oh, and then chapter or whatever. Like it ended up being chapter five, not chapter one. But he wanted me to write about my marriage crisis.

He thought it would be a great way to like explain the power of the situation. I will tell you what happened. Everything was going great. You know, he's like you and he's like me. Like try to outwork us, right? Yeah, yeah. Let's go. Right.

Like, let's go. It's like, you know, maybe I don't have the highest IQ score in the room. Like, you know, but like, watch me work, right? Like, so that is Jason Duckworth. And that is Angela Duckworth. And I, you know, and you shared with me that that's your personal story. So when we saw each other, it was like looking in the mirror. It was like, oh, my God, let's go.

And it was working. Like, trying harder was our life philosophy. And it worked until it didn't. Until he lost it and burned out and overwhelmed. Yeah. Yeah. So let's see. So, and maybe there's a scenario where it could have worked forever.

But I don't think that happens for those people. So we get married and he's starting his real estate career. And you know more about business than I do despite my being a business school professor. So you'll know that I'm a professor. I'm on tenure track. He's a real estate developer, 2008 financial crisis. I know so little about finance and economics that like I gave him the copy for this chapter. And he was like, I think he got the sweetie.

I think he got the date wrong for the financial crisis. crisis that like, you know, set the United States and the rest of the world into like a global recession. It was like the worst housing market in, you know, recent American history. So here he is, like starting out as a very ambitious, I'll outwork you a real estate developer in the worst time in history to be a real estate developer. What happened to our marriage in this time is, and this, like, I'm glad I mentioned to you that I'm of Chinese heritage because it is relevant. So he's working harder and harder because the philosophy of somebody who's like, I will try harder and that is my superpower, I will work my way out of every problem, has an incredible vulnerability, which is like you go from

60-hour work weeks. To 80, yeah, yeah, to 100. And I count it. So right. I know people are like, oh, you know, if you really add it up, I'm like, oh, yeah, trust me, I added him up. So he's working like crazy. And honestly, like becoming incredibly.

happy. Like, miserable would not be the right, no, miserable would exactly the right adjective for it. I'm, you know, trying to be what my mother, who was raised in China, like, raised me to be, which is the perfect wife. Like, okay, I know. Well, I had a lot of therapy since this all happened. And I also, but at the time, right, like, you know, 20-something, Angela, um, head over heels and love, uh, and raised to be like a perfect wife. So I'm working harder. So I'm trying to get tenure. but also we had these two girls and like, you know, I need to serve them organic fruit and like keep up my Pilates routine, but also I've got this husband. And when you are raised as I was raised, like Lewis, my mother laid her hands on my shoulders at college graduation. And she with a tear in her eye said, I'm so proud of you, you're ready to be a wife.

And so for me, my husband's unhappiness was my failure. So then I just worked harder. I was like, I'll dustbust, you know, at five in the morning. So I will make everything right and my husband will be happy. So we were both just digging ourselves into, into like, I guess kind of a foxhole, because that's what it felt like. We're just like, you know, we're just like soldiers in a foxhole trying to make things work. And all the happiness, I mean, the joy.

Like I was so in love with Jason Duckworth when we met, but I couldn't even remember that at this point. And so the crisis that I write about is how each of us had spent our lives being gritty, try harder people. And we had to reckon with the reality that trying harder in a losing situation doesn't make you into a winner. It didn't work for us. And we had to change the situation in fundamental ways to rescue our marriage and to rescue our careers. I mean, to rescue ourselves. And so, yeah, I belatedly in a way, like, came to understand that working harder in a losing situation, situation is just a recipe for, you know, exhaustion, burnout and misery. Wow. Now, there's a couple

things I relate to there. One, you know, I was, I told you before that I was in multiple long-term relationships, not married, but just in long-term dating relationships, committed relationships. And there'd be seasons where I know like, oh, this was not, we're not supposed to continue. But whatever in me, the athlete or the person that says, don't give up. I don't want to quit. I was like, I'm going to figure this out. We'll do whatever it takes. I'll do more. more, I'll change, we'll go to therapy, whatever it was. And I repeated that in like four or five different relationships. Yeah. And not most people, but I would say some people, after five, 10 years of a marriage, but they get to that point, they would say, you know what, we've lost

the love, we've lost this, like we've burned ourselves to the ground. We've tried everything. Let's break up. Let's divorce. Let's break up. Even if we have kids. I'm not saying it's right or wrong for people to make their decisions. But why did you feel like that? Ending the relationship and removing yourself from what was the situation. The situation. Yeah. Was not the right thing to do at that time for you. So there's some subtlety here, right?

Because it's like, okay, so I hear you saying is that like this had become an unsustainable situation, Angela, like, why isn't breaking up like the right thing and dinner? And like you, I'm like, far from me to pass judgment on anyone's marriage or life because I don't know anything about it. But I can speak personally. And there is some nuance here because divorce was a way to change the situation, right? And I thought, like, I would be a happy, you know, single mom. And then, you know, he was a happier, right?

Like, less miserable. You thought about this. You thought about like, what would that look like if we were. I took him out for a walk and I was like, and out of the blue, I was, you know, like all in one moment. I was like, okay, no, you think everything is perfect. I've been crying my eyes out every night and I don't want to be in this marriage anymore. Wow. It was not a great night. You know, I wrote about this, but I don't know that I did it justice.

like, I don't think there's anything more devastating. He's like a child of divorce. Like, I really don't think there is anything I could have said that was more wounding than that. I think it was terrifying. I mean, I think it was like every negative adjective you can think of. It was terrifying. It was like crushing. It was devastating.

And I won't lie. Part of the reason why we're still married is grit because he was a little bit like, oh, no, I'm not done. Like, you know, like, you know, like. What do you need for me? Like, you know, we'll do it. So there was a little bit of grip. But I will tell you, I'll tell you, you know, what happened and why it is that, like, getting situated, I guess, you know, there were other ways to do it.

But I'm glad that we went the path we did. So there were calibrations to our situation as opposed to, like, a radical, like, change, you know, like, just splitting up. So I was also raised not to have therapy. Like, I was raised. I remember my father and my mother. where, you know, I have siblings and there was a moment in time in my childhood.

No one talked about emotions or feelings or? Like Verboten. And there was a moment in time where like I think the school, somebody reached out and was like, your family needs to go to therapy. And by that, I mean the family. And so I remember this one episode,

you know, it's like a sepia-colored photograph. It's a little fuzzy. But I remember being on this couch with my family. When you were a kid. With my, yeah. And my parents were there. And my dad, like, stormed out and said, like, you know, very, like, unrepeatable things about, like, the therapist.

So, like, I did not, I did not grow up thinking, like, therapy is great. Like, therapy should be part of your situation. So at this marriage crisis, Jason, you know, said, whatever, pleaded, said, like, therapy. Like, you need therapy. I need therapy. And we need therapy. And how did you respond? I was like incredibly resistant to the idea.

You know, like also like when you feel like you've already gone to the place where you're like, oh, by the way, I thought through this. Like I've thrown it all out and like there's no there's no solution here. There's no coming back. But maybe there was enough of a Chinese wife and me that was like, oh, but my husband wants me to go to therapy. Like we went. That was a profound change in my situation. I think like you trying to figure out your problems alone is a different situation than you trying to figure it out with somebody whose whole job. is to like help people like you and who has seen as like pattern recognitions. So I, you know, found

this therapist. Her name is D. She's still my therapist. Jason found a therapist. We went through another. So you did it individually and then together. We did like we had the biggest therapy bills like in, well, maybe not in history, but there were three therapists for two of us in one marriage. And that wasn't a great ratio for me. And we were, you know, just, it was a huge amount of our annual income. Time, energy. You know, these like two little girls. who were raising, like, you know, grandparents, like, taking shifts so that we can each go to therapy, that we could both go to therapy. I think that that was only one change. But, like, you in a marriage trying to figure things out on your own by just trying harder is, like, a whole different world from,

like, you together, like, vulnerable enough to be like, I guess it's time for therapy. Like, I can't figure this out on my own. I can't talk about it with you, except for if there's this third person in the room. Like it did, it wasn't, and it wasn't the only thing we did, but it was like part of the turning point, right? You know, asking for help, I think, is a big part of getting situated. It is. Do you feel like you'd still be married and as successful as you are in your career if you didn't go through therapy with him at that season? I know that I wouldn't be as successful as I am because, you know what? I've also found in my research, Lewis, people aren't gritty when they're not happy. So if you want to be gritty and successful, you have to be happy.

But maybe getting a divorce and getting out of the situation, maybe you'd have felt a sense of freedom and peace. You know, it's like, oh, maybe I don't have anything. I'll go to therapy for a year and deal with stress and bills and like, oh, changing myself. Like maybe it'd just been, I can be who I want and find someone else. So I think like nearly memorized the road not taken by Robert Frost, you know, like, you know, two roads diverged in yellow wood. And there, I, the weary travelers. stood and looked down one as far as I could to wear it bent in the undergrowth, right? I haven't memorized the whole thing. That's the first stanza. And you get to the end, it's like, you know, basically the reason why that poem gets repeated all the time is like, who hasn't thought about like, but what if

I hadn't stayed with you or like, what if I had stayed in Ireland or whatever it is? You know, you just have these like, what if I'd stayed in football? Like, you have these other roads and they're not taken. I don't know what the other roads are. I haven't taken them. I mean, I'm trying not to swear, but I love this road. And I so, so I love my husband. Like, I don't know, but I will say this. The thoughts that I had in my head, like, this is ruined. Like, it's no longer a fairy tale.

Like, I can't make you happy, therefore I'm a failure as a wife. Like, we are not meant to be. Those thoughts are not true. And it was only by changing my situation that I could change my thoughts to. Well, you are miserable and I am miserable. Facts. it doesn't have to be that way. It also doesn't mean that you're a congenitally miserable person or that I am congenally unable to be a good wife.

Like, there are so many assumptions that I had in my head that hadn't I changed my situation, that it wouldn't have changed my thoughts, right? And I think one of the one of the things I would really do, like we've had a conversation before this where I said, I'm slightly uncomfortable like, you know, being on book tour. Like, you know, I don't. But there is something. I feel incredibly passionate about in psychology, and that is my job, right? I'm not a real state developer. I'm a psychologist. In psychology, there is this very simple way of understanding human behavior that I learned about halfway through my career and I think is important to deliver to the world. And it gets back to like, well, how does this all fit together? There's just three boxes

if you want to draw them on a piece of paper. And the third box is like how you respond, how you feel, Are you miserable? Are you happy? Are you confident? Are you working 10 hours that day or two hours that day? What did you eat? What did you drink? Like any behavior you can think of, any feeling you can think of is in box three. And that's how you respond to what happens? That's how you're responding. And your response. And people can be different. Right. You're like, oh, you know, Ryan and, you know, John, like Sally, like they stayed later and, you know, Sue didn't. Like, okay, that's the response, right? Then what happens in box two? What box two are your thoughts? So one of the reasons why many, therapists today will identify themselves as cognitive therapists, like cognitive therapists working on your thoughts. Like, what are the thoughts that are making you underconfident? Like, you're feeling like an imposter? Let's think about the thoughts that go through your head together. And like, let's try to under, you know, you don't think this marriage is going to work.

You feel, whatever you feel, like, it's the thoughts. So cognitive therapy, like you go and a therapist helps you interrogate and challenge maybe maladaptive and inaccurate thoughts. right? So I think that's a lot of, that's a lot of growth. You talk about greatness. Like, I think a lot of that is becoming aware of your self-talk and your thoughts. But I want to say, and I'm not saying that therapists are not saying this too. But I want to say that there's another box. It's like, okay, that's box two and box three. You know what box one is? Box one is your situation. Like, who are you with? Like, are you with a therapist or are you not with a therapist? I mean, I also came clean to my friends who I had not really been sharing this with on the. whole. There were also professional changes we make. We changed box one. We changed our situation. When you change your situation, you automatically change your thoughts. When you change your thoughts, you automatically change your behavior. So I feel unapologetic and unequivocal that, like, people should understand that everything you do comes from what you think and everything you think

is influenced by your situation. I believe that for sure. And this, you know, this guy, this younger guy who came yesterday to be with me. The one who asked you for advice? I loved this question, by the way. I already loved this guy. I've never met him. Nice guy. I was telling him like, listen, you know, everything I went through all the challenges, they've all taught me who I am today and this and that, you know, and I'm grateful for all the experiences. But I know that my energy was drained so many times and for so long in certain relationships, and I don't blame anyone else. I take full responsibility. And I wish I would have learned that skill on how to navigate those situations better, sooner. Because now being married for, you know, and with Martha for the last five years,

it has brought me so much greater energy in my life, more joy that has allowed me to expand my energy in positive ways. I feel like better, right? It's giving me more energy, giving me more confidence, all these things and less stress. Yeah. And I think whenever I'm stressed, I make worse decisions in life. And I make, you know, and I don't respond, like you said in the third box as well. Right.

You're not your best self. Not your best self. I'm like a six out of a ten every day or like a four out of a ten. So are you like a different Lewis because like it's Lewis and Martha? 100%. Yeah, 100%. And this is the interesting thing. You mentioned therapy because when I met Martha, I was so clear that I was not going to

allow chemical emotions to cloud my thinking to just act. Oh, we're in love. is amazing and it feels good and let's just not ask the deep questions and this it feels good being around each other. So early on when we are dating in the first couple months, I was like, listen, we're having an amazing time. And it seems like it feels, so many things are lining up like, this is amazing, right? But I said, for whatever reason, I'm not willing to get into a committed relationship unless we start in therapy. Really? Yes. At the beginning of your relationship? beginning of the relationship because every other relationship ended in therapy and it never worked out.

You're like, hey, we have the tail. And I was like, I don't want to go over the next year of everything's going to be great. And then we move in in a year or a year and a half or whatever it is. And then we start finding out things about each other that don't work. We're trying to go back to that feeling you had with Jason, right? Yeah, yeah. In the beginning, you try to remember that fantasy of the beginning. Yeah.

And you can't find it because you're stressed out, you're overwhelmed, you're hate each other, whatever it is. And I was like, I don't want to get to that. point. I want to know that we have shared values, shared vision, and shared lifestyle in the beginning, and we're really honest with each other. Right. And maybe quickly we find out it doesn't work out. Yeah. Which is great. I'd rather do that in three to six months than three to six years. God, I've never heard of this before. This is awesome. It was the best thing that we have ever done because right away, she said, absolutely, let's do it, which I thought she was good sign. Great sign. Such a good sign. And we were able to just navigate little misunderstand.

understandings, little potential disagreements that could have blown up into something bigger so quickly. And it wasn't always comfortable. And there was some moments that were vulnerable and was like, oh, this doesn't feel good. But we were able to work through it with a mentor, a third party. Yeah. That's all they do. Yeah. Instead of us figuring out when we're emotional.

It was the greatest gift we gave ourselves and our relationship. How old did you go to this? Probably about a year. Wow. And the first year. And it was just like we appreciated each other. Genius. I know we're in this together and we've done this work early and we're willing to keep figuring things out together when we need to.

And it's been the most beautiful five-year experience with someone ever. Yeah. And again, we've faced challenges. We have adversity we're going through different stuff. Like we just had twin girls 10 months ago. Challenges at hospital. All these different things are happening. Yeah.

But the fact that we created a almost a framework of connection, of vulnerability. of we're in this together in the beginning has created a better relationship now. Again, it doesn't guarantee we're going to have this perfect relationship forever. I'm just saying it's created a much more peace within us. And I just think it's a valuable thing to explore. So I have never met anybody who was like, oh, and then when we first started dating, I was like, we're going to therapy? But I went through so much pain, Angela, for 20 years of multiple relationships that were

just heart wrenching for me, that didn't work out, that I was like, my ability to have grit and pursue and create was diminished because of one situation. Talk about in your book. Right. And the people that we surround ourselves with, the mentors, the friends, the coaches, the teachers. Those are the environments in my mind that are more important than making sure your space is clean and you're in the right city and things like that.

Yes, those are, yes, those are also elements. Yes, those environments, yeah. are crucial. But if you are in an emotionally trapped environment with a coach, a mentor, a friend who's holding you hostage, who's gaslighting you, that you're pouring into and you feel like it is exhausting and it will suck the life out of you. So I feel like the people's situations that you're in. Those are the most important.

Are the most emotionally important. And everything else as well, like stack everything you can that you talk about in your book, but it's the people that hold you back. And so many people I've interviewed, they're like, make sure you choose the person you marry wisely. Really? Has that come up as a theme? Yeah, because it impacts everything. So it's not just venture capitalists.

And I asked my therapist this, who works with a lot of like very financially successful kind of older men, right, who are maybe in their like 50s, 60s and 70s, right? Yeah. And she has a lot of like high profile clients and things like that. And I'm asking her, you know, after like a year and a half for a couple years of doing this. And I was doing individual therapy and then her with a couple of things. therapy as well. When I did at this session one point, she was like, so what do you want talk about? I was like, man, I just feel so good. And it was just happening every time. I was like, I don't know anything to talk about. Yeah. But I go, how about this? Let's go into the future,

future Lewis. Say, you know, everything works out for me, everything I want. And, you know, I accomplish everything and all my dreams come true and I'm healthy, I'm happy, all these things. What's going to be my biggest challenge in 10, 20 years? Based on the pattern recognition you see with all your clients. You asked for this question. And you asked you asked. your therapist's question. I said, what are, what are your clients coming to you and what's their biggest challenge? And you say, all these men who are very successful that come to her, they have fallen out of grace. They have allowed the temptations of the world to take them out of essentially their situation,

their marriage. They've cheated with someone. They've, they've strayed from the family. They've allowed their power, their money, their success. Their ego. Whatever. To get to them, whatever. And they made mistakes that ruined.

their life. So they ruin their situation that's a good thing for something else maybe more tempting. And then they spend years trying to regain respect from their kids or their, they eventually try to get back with the wife or whatever it might be and it's too late. And so she was like, just be thinking of that because you're going to continue to grow. You're going to continue to succeed. Right. And you're going to be more successful and the temptations are going to be greater. Exactly. So make sure you continue to have a bond where you're staying connected, you're staying present, and you're working on things together. Right.

And I think that is the thing where most people fail is like they get too successful and then they forget, I guess they forget about who they are, you know, so. So look, you know, you can be like, what's more important? Like the people, places are things. I'm like, and you want to argue people, right? Your relationships, like first and foremost, like is right, because they're dragging you down or they're bringing you up. They're like helping you remember who you are or they're distracting you from like your value. So I think I'll agree with you on that.

Like I hadn't thought about like a rank ordering, but like if there's one. And imagine if your husband was not supportive of your career, was just kind of put doubt inside of you. We worked in the same company. This is how we met. So we were both in graduate school, but we were about to go to McKinsey consulting. And he's very proactive, like, you know, Boy Scout class president type. And so he's like, I'm going to organize a dinner for all the people who are going to go work at McKinsey consulting in New York City. I'm a little less like, yeah, it's great.

You know, that's why you need people to like organize your high school reunion. Like, he's your guy. So he organizes his dinner and I meet him. Yeah, fall in love. But the point is that we both went to McKinsey. And so we were, you know, like in the same track. And I wasn't more successful than him, but I will say that. Just smarter than him.

Better working. More charming. I wore shorter skirts, I will say that. I got that feedback in a performance of you. They're like, yeah, you know. He liked that, but not, yeah. Apparently not my engagement manager. But so here's a thing.

Being a successful person, I think, is hard. Being a successful woman in a marriage, I think, can be hard for the husband. He frequently reminds me that he is the son of a, like his parents divorced. And so he was raised by both his father and his mother, but like not at the same time. And his mother, Sharon, is, like, an incredibly strong woman, very ambitious. She became a school superintendent. And he frequently reminds me that, like, I should be more articulate about this list. But maybe is it because it's emotional or it's because it's hard to describe the support that this man gives me.

Like, it's not that he tolerates my success. It's not that he is capable of, like, managing his own ego. And by the way, he is successful, too. But I think he would point to my success. Like, it is true love, right? When it's, like, I assume that, like, the greater. that Lewis is, like the more fulfilled Martha herself is like it is that way on my, you know, on my side of this marriage. Like I feel like, you know, like he might enjoy my success more than I do.

I think that that's- Does he speak good words into you on a consistent basis around your project that you're working on? I think he is, A, a lot more, like he has ballast, you know. I mean, I get like very excited about things. And he has a steadiness. There's like a, you know, there's like a saludity to Jason Duckworth. I think he also is like ethically and morally, like I don't know a lot of people. I don't know a lot of people who did what you did at the very beginning of relationship. But I also can say, I don't know a lot of people like, like Jason is actively trying to be a better person. Like he actively praise to be a better person. Like he asked the question, like, is this the most ethical way, you know, like we're now in our 50s? Like is this the. ethical way to be like using our money, using our time. So I have this person in my life who has like unconditional, it's not like in any marriage, like, you know, you're all happy with the other person, but like this unconditional commitment and unconditional support. But then also he's this like, you know, paragon of like integrity. Like I am not an immoral person, but I don't think on like, you know, like I don't wake up in the morning and pray.

like, oh, I wonder if I could be a better person today. I mean, I try to be nice, but I think he's another level. And yeah, think about the, okay, so like, let's assume that Robert Frost is right, and our life is a road. And we, you know, sometimes we come to like a fork in the road and we could be with this person or that person. We could go to therapy or not go to therapy. We could stay in our job or not stay in our job. We can move or not move. We'll never know the road's not taken. There's not only one road not taken. There are an uncountable roads not taken. I don't know what the roads are like with a different husband. I don't know what, um, what Angela Duckworth with another relationship would be. But this road that I'm on, I just look back at the road and I'm

like, I could not have come this far. Like I wouldn't, I wouldn't even, um, you know, I shared with you this, um, you know, my mom, by the way, I think would be okay with, you know, my relaying this anecdote because now she's 91 and I think she looks back and she was like, what was I talking about when you were at college graduation? Like, driving your shoulder. Probably not the thing to say, like, you know, I'm glad you're happy, you know, you could be a wife. But I know this road that I've been on and I know that there's no way I would get this far. And one reason I know is that being raised in that, you know, be a good wife, be a good wife, you know, like make him happy. Like literally I was told at the beginning of my marriage, like my mom again, not the 91 year old I have now.

But back then she was like, when he comes home, play some soft music. And like as if he were a lion or something. He's like play some soft music and like, like, you know, rub his feet and like, you know, always have the food ready. So I don't think the ambitious Angela that I am today who's like, I'm going to just go. Like, I'm going to be as great a psychologist as I can be. I want to like, I want to do everything I can. I don't think I would have given myself that permission if I hadn't gotten his support. So like, I don't know what the other roads are.

But I'm so far down this road. And this road has taken me to places that I would never have dreamed of even like allowing myself to want to. go. Wow. Right? Because, yeah, like, and we're so happily married. And you know, this ring. So this is the ring I, you know, I got engaged with this ring, right? And we got married, we got this ring. And I have a third ring. And after our marriage crisis, uh, where a little bit of grit and a lot better situation, like, you know, here we are. And therapy. So much therapy, right? Well, I was part of the better situation. Exactly. So like, you reimagined a new situation. Exactly. And like many situational improvements, like, it leads to an

even better situation because like now you're you know now you're making better decisions across the board this third ring is like you know the ring to celebrate our second marriage like the sort of you know like we are not just going to try harder individually or even together to like we will when we're stuck I mean here's a way to know like you asked me in the very beginning like do we know like on schedule and I said I think we often know too late but here's a way to know if you are trying and then you're trying harder and then you're trying to harder still and you do not feel like you are making progress in your marriage, in your career, in your friendships, in your health, in anything. You're like, more effort is not producing more

results. I think that is a time you should stop, ask yourself, is it the situation? Like, do I need to pivot and put myself in a better situation? And then, you know, of course, like, then keep trying. I mean, I'll never stop believing in try harder. But that, I think, is a signal. And I think I missed that signal. I was just like, oh, just like keep going. Yeah. I mean, that's the problem with the superpower, right? Like it's a kryptonite you don't realize. My friend, I hope you're enjoying this episode.

And the School of Greatness drops new conversations every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday around money, mindset, healing, manifestation, and relationships. And if you're not yet following the show, then you're missing all of them. Please tap the follow button right now. And you'll get notified the moment every new episode drop. because the next one might be exactly what you need. Now, let's get back to the conversation. Let's hypothetically go back and say, you know, you stayed in the relationship and it wasn't,

maybe it got a little bit better, but it wasn't really transforming after therapy and you guys just cut it. We're just going to stick this out for the kids or whatever. Like, we're just going to stay in this. You're asking me to like think through this kind of factual. Go back. Go back in time. But also imagine that like, yeah.

And let's just say the marriage got maybe a little bit better, but it's kind of just like running its course and you're just staying together. And let's say he wasn't encouraging. Maybe he wasn't negative, but he wasn't like positively encouraging you and supporting you in projects and books and speeches and, you know, championing you as a partner. Do you think him being neutral or even him putting doubt inside of you with negative words or negative thoughts, would that have hurt your experience in life and hurt you from

accomplishing what you've accomplished? You think you would have been able to overcome that with that type of situation? You literally just described my mother's marriage to my father, right? So I know what that looks like because that was her. So, you know, my parents also fell head over heels in love. They were actually fabulously good looking. I watched these like old movies of them and I was like, holy shit. My mother was like a female, you know, like she was a goddess.

I mean, she looked like a Chinese Sophia Loren. And my dad actually, to my shock and all, was like, actually pretty good-looking, too. And, you know, he had a big white convertible. I mean, they had this, like, very head over heels romance, much like Jason and I. But you just described, really, I think, what their marriage was like. So my mother immigrated to this country, like, knowing no one, first in her family, she spoke hardly any English. She wanted to be an artist. And she thought she could do it, you know, make her dream come true in America, right?

So she changed her situation, moved countries. She changed her situation, which I think is good. Step one. Yeah, she has situational agency. My mother is a paragon of situational agency. But her, but her situation wasn't perfect. So she moved from, you know, Taiwan to the United States. That was a better situation because, like, as a woman, you can go to art school in the United States. Like, she went to great art schools here. But there was challenges because she didn't know the language and other challenges. And she overcame them because she's also gritty. Okay. So, okay. But in marrying my dad, who went by YK, because he's like a very unpronounceable total Chinese name. Let's call him YK, because that's what everyone did. In marrying YK, Teresa married into a very traditional marriage, like a very traditional Chinese marriage, because though they were in the United States, they were both raised in China in the 1930s. So not only was she raised to be a good wife, he was raised to marry a good wife. And he married her because she was beautiful, but not because she was smart and creative and awesome. Well, awesome, maybe. But mostly because she was. was beautiful and kind, but not because she was like a great artist and like ambitious and smart because like my mom was every bit as, you know, is as every bit as smart as my dad was. My dad's not passed. So when you describe this marriage, like, Angela, go back in time.

Imagine, imagine greatness and the ceiling that, you know, how high would it be if you had a different supporter at home, if you had somebody who was giving you like, you know, doubts and so forth and was like actually resentful. I was like, I don't have to imagine it, Louis, because that is the marriage my mother had. So what happened to this? And my mom, by the way, was maybe more talented than you and I were. Like, she was a prodigy. Like, I saw the paintings.

She still has them that she made when she was a teenager. And I really think she had a gift. Wow. So she had a gift and she had grit and she was in America. Like, what's, you know, what's wrong? What's wrong? Well, the trifecta, but I guess there are four things because, like, she didn't have the marriage. Right.

So my dad was not mean and not a bad person. Kind of dismissive or kind of just like. Not supportive, right? Like that. Don't do that stuff. You should must be doing this. Well, like, you know what? Like let's start a wholesale needlepoint company because it will make money.

Yes. Practical. Do you know what needlepoint is? Needlepoint meaning what is that? Okay. It's a handicraft. I thought it was like sewing. It's a version of sewing.

Yeah, yeah. Okay. You get this canvas. Yeah. It's like, it's like artwork needlepoint. Do you mean? Yeah, like the canvas is usually like painted with like, I don't know, like a unicorn or like your dog or something, right? Or it could have like a saying like, you know, like home is where the heart is. And like it's painted. So you get this white canvas and it's painted. And needlepoint is this. Like string in there like a. Yeah. So this is like, you know, by the way, this is partly why they're like business idea didn't take off. But anyway, like nobody does needlepoint. So like you, you like, if it's green, you stitch green. And if it's yellow, you stitch yellow. So my dad's idea like was,

not necessarily a bad, it's like not evil. But when you're married to somebody, your job is not to make them happy, but your job is to help them realize their dreams. And my dad did not do that. So he wanted my mom to run this business. She wanted, like they became small business owners. I mean, he had a career. He was a chemist. But he gave her this assignment. Project side hustle. Yeah, full time side hustle. So she ran this business, this like needlepoint business where she was like painting, dogs on campus and like, you know, like, whatever, you know, homes where the heart is, like, whatever it is, like unicorns, and then, you know, getting other people to paint them and then selling them to stores and not doing what she came to this country to do, which is to be a painter herself, like a real painter. And that was their whole marriage until he died. And then he did die. And that is when my mom started painting again. Come on. No, yeah, like, true story. So how many years were they together until he died? Over 50. Gosh, I must not have a, like, a mind for

numbers. I'm like, how many years is my definitely ever 50 years? So for 50 years. 50 plus. 50 plus years. I've been married 25 plus. She, she did all of her work to get to this country to like start pursuing it. But then none of the negative way or bad way. She was trying to be a great wife and she was trying to show up for what your father wanted, I guess. And that situation, if you want to contend that the most important part of getting situated is like being with the right partner. Yes. He was many things. But support. about art. He was not curious. Like, I grew up in that house. We never went to the art museum. Like, there is a beautiful art museum in Philadelphia. It looks like it should be in Greece. It's like, you know,

one of the greatest art museum in the world. We never went to the art museum. Like, you know, my mom, you know, like had one painting that I used to, like, it had like cherry blossoms and there was another painting that had boats. There was only two paintings in my house. Now that we've talked about this and you know life is long and you learn a lot and now my 91 year old mother looks back and says like I should have said something I should have done something I asked her why there weren't more paintings like when we were growing up and she was like well you know I was taking care of your father he was like my fourth child and she said you know sometimes I would paint something like because I would find like a stolen hour on the side you know between lunch and dinner and and

I would put it up on the wall and nobody would say anything and especially your father like he would walk by a new painting for months and not say anything because he didn't notice. Like, you didn't notice. So, like, I don't know Martha, but I already love, like, like, that's changed your life. You know, I think that's, Jason's changed my life. And I think, you know, obviously there are a lot of people who are like, sounds great. How do I get one? But even knowing that, like, who you are in a certain relationship is like a different you.

Like, I'm not the same Angela. So it's not only a pose. about like the road not taken. They're like, okay, I'm on this road. It's not only like, I mean, like, this traveler is not the same traveler because I did take that road. Like, right? And it's changed to me.

Yeah, but you've had an encouraging, supportive partner throughout this whole time. And yeah, not a perfect person, but like. Yeah, but he's been encouraging. He hasn't put doubt in your mind. Maybe once in a while, but it sounds like consistently he puts, he reinforces positive encouragement in your mind with supportive energy and cheering you on instead of doubting you or neglecting you, right? And research shows, right? And this is not like Angela and her marriage and so forth, but Angela, the professor and psychologist who can tell you what really surprising things about

confidence. And I think, you know, what thousands of podcast episodes, right? Like the theme of confidence of belief. Like I believed I could do it, right? Believing you can do something, always proceeds doing it. You don't do things. You don't believe you can do. Human beings cannot go against the grain of their own confidence. Your partner is telling you you can't do this. Exactly. Okay. So I don't know in the marriage context. I'm sure this is true. But in other contexts, it's like been shown in research. So much of your belief comes from other people's belief. It's borrowed. Just saying, hey, I believe you can do it. Yeah. And then like acting that way and so forth. So, like, how important is it to have a partner who believes in you, a coach who believes in you, a boss who believes in you, a best friend who believes in you?

It's the nature of human nature that our self-confidence comes from other people. So there's this experiment that's called the Pygmalion effect. It's actually appropriately since we ended up talking about love and marriage and Martha and Jason. So it's not a true story and it's not a research study. But the Pygmalion myth from Greek mythology is that there is a sculptor whose name is Pygmalion. And he carves a statue out of ivory that is so beautiful that he falls in love with it. And he so believes that this statue is real, that the goddess of love, Aphrodite, like, sort of looks down on this mortal and takes some pity on him and basically brings the statue to life. And the reason why this research study is called the Pygmalion effect is because the idea is that if you truly believe in somebody else, like, it will transform them.

it will bring them to life. So the study is that there are these little kids at an elementary school in California. And they're just going through elementary school. And before the beginning of the school year, this Harvard psychologist named Bob Rosenthal, who came to this hypothesis that belief is borrowed, that self-confidence comes from other people, that you need to be in these relationships, because who has the belief that they can do something until someone else says they can do it and acts like they can do it. So he randomly assigns these kids. to either be labeled as gifted or not, right? And for the gifted group, he goes and he tells their teachers, he's like, oh, by the way, here's the list of kids.

Before the school year starts, I gave them the, like, Harvard test of inflected reasoning. I mean, he made this up. He made up the test. He made up the title. But it sounded very fancy. And he was a Harvard professor. And he said, and these are your bloomers. And it might not be obvious on day one of school, and it may not be obvious on day 10.

But, like, before the end of the school year, you will see that they're, you will see that they're, they bloom because they are gifted. So he gave the teachers the belief in the kids, right, experimentally. We'll just wait it to see what happened. And sure enough, it was a self-fulfilling prophecy. The teachers believed that these kids would be great. That gave the kids the confidence that they were great. And even on IQ tests, especially the youngest kids, like they literally did better by a lot by the end of the year.

And so the Pygmalion effect is the. is the reality that our belief, Angela Duckworth's belief in Angela Duckworth is not just because of Angela Duckworth. It's because of Jason Duckworth. And, you know, like another like set of people. But it's just evidence that your relationships matter to not only like what your opportunities are, but like how you think about yourself as a person. Yes. And that's why I think your book is so powerful situated because it's about finding the people and places that bring out your best. best. And you said people first in the title. I guess I could have set places and was, yeah,

it takes primacy, right? It's pole position. People because, and you talk about mentorship and relationships, the relationships we choose to create. Now, obviously when you're a kid, you can't choose your parents and siblings, but at some point, hopefully your parents can choose your friends for you early on and start putting you in those relationships and putting you in the right school environment or whatever it might be to set you up for that success. But when we're adults, if we have the opportunity to choose people specifically that pour into you positive re-encouragement, positive self-belief, it is going to give you so much a greater advantage than being in, you know, the perfect school and perfect place without those people giving that to you.

Like you like the people part. I, I couldn't agree more. And Liz, it's, it's really like, not like, oh, you'll be 5% more productive. Like, you'll be 7% more efficient. Like, it is. I think to me, the transformative element is that you don't know who you could become. That's the thing. And your mom. Like, who could she have become?

Not that she was, not great right now and she raised great kids and she had a great marriage. Who could my mother have become? Who could she become? Who could my, like, what is the artist? And it doesn't mean that she could have been a famous, maybe she could have been famous, but maybe she could have just enjoyed her life more, creating the art she had inside of her. Yeah, like, like, she will tell you herself

that she asked that question, right? And, yeah, and, you know, is she sorry that she raised her family? No. Like, did she feel like she had infinite freedom? Like, no. But yeah, no. And you'll be happy to know at age 91.

I mean, she paints every day. And how does it make her feel or look or what's her energy like? She texted me once, and she said, in this text message like when I paint I have no age like I forget that I am old right and she says like every day I'm good to work to like make these dreams come true

yeah like God bless she's very healthy 91 year old but I think it's just I mean it really is it's like okay now she's in a situation where like there are people I asked her about her art like growing up I was not part of a situation that was supportive I never asked mom like do you want to go to the art museum like what are you working on like do you like this painting Like now I ask her better.

I ask her to send pictures or I go to her art studio. Like I, like I'm only a tiny part of that situation. But, but yeah, and I think the point that I'm, you know, inadequately expressing is like, again, it's not about 5% or 7% gains. It's a transformation in like in who you are. Like you are a different person. You are a different person when you're in a different situation. So true. I've got a couple final questions for you.

This has been powerful. I didn't even ask you any questions I had here. I can't believe we talked about my marriage the whole time. I think it's fascinating. It's a very big, it's an important part of my life. I think you learned so much about a human being based on the people there with. And I just don't think you would be as happy and healthy and, you know, successful in your career without a great partner supporting you and encouraging you. When we talked about off camera about, you know, early on in your career, you thought you might want to study the placebo.

I'm a big fan of the placebo of like, even if it's not true, if you believe something to be true, it gives you that belief, that energy, that confidence. And that's the self-of-silling prophecy, right? Yeah. And it's like, and it makes you more gritty and all these things like support each other. And by the bickmalion effect and the placebo effect are highly related. They're both about belief and they're both about the belief preceding the reality, but then creating the reality.

There's a book out by NIR Aial. Do you know him? He wrote a book called Beyond Belief. Yeah. It's really interesting. Yeah. He's a psychologist. Yes.

Right. Like, is really? Near and out. Yes. Yes. Okay, yeah. He's called Beyond Belief. I haven't read it, but I think I read his previous book.

Book is powerful. Yeah. I think the previous book was called Hooked. I think it was. Yes. That is the one about, yeah, about distractions. The new one is about belief. You should check it out.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's called Beyond Belief. And I believe he was also atheist, I believe, before from what he was talking about. And he said, in all my research of studying beliefs and the benefits of belief, I now pray to God, even though I don't necessarily, I didn't grow up thinking about this, but I, and I never prayed before. But prayer makes you happier and healthier and helps you accomplish your goals more. So I'm going to believe it. So I believe it. Even if I don't know really 100%, there's a God like there. I choose to believe. I choose to believe based on the psychological, emotional,

and health benefits in my life, prayer. Yeah. And so I pray every day because I believe it's going to make me better. And then when you're talking about your husband, Jason, how he prays every day to be better and how can I have more integrity and make better choices. You know what? There are lots of books about believing. And I am not saying that like you shouldn't read that one, but I will say mindset, you know, like, you know, like there are lots of things about what you do in your mind. You pray, you meditate, you set goals. I think, I believe in all of it, by the way. Like I think there should be a thousand books, a million books, right? Because that is a lot of changing, like, your behavior to be better than you were yesterday. But I would tell you this, many people, let's take prayer

as an example, like, why are there churches and mosques and synagogues, right? Like, why are there sacred spaces, right? Like, well, the same reason why there are libraries and restaurants. And art museums are. And art museums and art studios, right? And I know we've talked a lot about relationships as being the most important part of your situation. But, but, you know, you know, But just on the side of the, like, the physical space is important also, yes, of course. Right. I think prayer is easier in certain places. Like, you could pray at Starbucks.

Sure. You know? And maybe some people are really good at praying at Starbucks. But when I go to church, which I do, you know, like, that's a different space, right? More present to it. You're more. You know, at least for me, right? So, so again, like, it's a late understanding of mine in a way.

Because I think I was like, if you just try hard, everything will work. out. It's like, no, no, no, you're just try hard in a great situation. I think that situation should have the people who bring out your best first and foremost. I think we agree. And the environment. And the environment. And the physical environment. Well, you put people first. So, you know, that's what I'm at the same pace there. I'm with you. Like, I'm speaking from the same hymnal. But, um, but I think the, I think the physical matter. I mean, when I walked into this place, I was like, oh, I love it. Right. Like, and I think it was a great great spirit. Great vibe. Right. Like, like, details matter.

So like, do all the details matter the same? No. But I think like once you just open your eyes, like just look around, right? Like, look around who are you with? Where are you? What is within reach? Like, what do you see? You know, do you like the billboards in the city that you live in? Or do you look at those billboards and you say, like, what am I doing here? I will tell you the billboards are different in L.A. than they are in Philadelphia. They're not as, they're probably not as, they don't make you feel as good probably. Well, have you been to Philadelphia? Oh, I haven't been there a lot of time. So maybe. I know the weather is better here. I think our billboards are 90% about like. We can see the billboards. You can't see in the rain there, the clouds. Okay, that's true. Well, that's the other problem.

But in Philadelphia, our billboards are mostly like, you know, like how to, you know, sue people. Like, you know, like political or government or like legal. Like the legal thing where like, you know, there's a lot of those here too, though. On the highway, they're everywhere. Yeah. Okay. Well, maybe that makes me feel better. I just like passed a lot of entertainment ones.

So I just thought like very different things. But, but yeah, you should. just be, I think, be aware of you, before you change your situation, right, because absolutely should, but I think just being aware, that's probably step one, just like, step one. Yeah. That's it. Angela, this has been powerful.

I got a couple of fun of questions. This question is something I asked about at the end called the three truths. Hypothetical scenario, you get to live as long as you want, but it's your last day on earth. You get to accomplish and create everything you want on this road that you're on. But for whatever reason, in the hypothetical scenario, you have to take all of your work with you. So this book is gone, great is gone, all of your speeches, content, video, all gone from this world. This podcast is gone. Everything before this moment.

Yes. But you get to leave behind three truths, three lessons that you've learned from your experience that you would share with the world. And we get to keep that. What would those three truths be for you? Number one, effort is the final common path to greatness. Number two, effort pays off more in certain situations. than others. Number three, you can change your situation for the better.

Another hypothetical scenario, if you could go back to the day you graduated where your mom put her hands on your shoulder and said, now you can be a wife. Now you're ready to be a wife. Now you're ready to be a wife. Yeah.

If you could go back and just, hypothetically, time travel, you are who you are now and you see that girl then on graduation day, and if you were able to send a message to her and speak to her for 30 to 60 seconds.

And you're able to look in the camera and speak to her. What would that message be to her of everything that she's about to go through? And what advice would you give her? I'd say, Angie, you think of life as a watercolor. And you think that when you brush a stroke of pigment, you can't undo it. But that's not the right metaphor. because life is not a watercolor painting where the job is to be perfect, make no mistakes, and that things get ruined unless they don't get ruined.

It's an oil painting. In an oil painting, you can just like throw on a whole other layer that things, you know, it's a work in progress. When I was 22, I thought I would just try harder and harder, live as perfect a life. life as I could in every dimension. And when things did go south in any endeavor, I did try harder. But in that one crucial decision where I chose the road I chose, I chose, you know, I chose the road with Jason, it was a shift from the watercolor metaphor, like this marriage must be ruined to like, it's an oil painting. And if we can put ourselves in the right situation, then, we're going to be more than okay.

And if I hadn't shifted metaphors, I would not have been able to make those adjustments that put us on the road I'm glad I'm on. Yeah, that's beautiful. Well, Angie, I want to acknowledge you for the book you created, situated, find the people in places that bring out your best. People first. People first.

For me, this is the book everyone should be reading right now because I'm just a big believer proximity is power. And this gives you more tools and more wisdom on how to make sure you're in proximity to the right people in places, to support your goals, support your dreams. And ultimately, live a better life, live a happier, more fulfilled life in a world where a lot of people are struggling and stressing. And that's what we try to do here on the school greatness is give people those tools. So I want to acknowledge you for this. I want to acknowledge you for opening up and talking about your marriage.

I don't know if you thought you'd be doing that here today. I did not think so. But you know what? I was happy to do it. Can I ask you a question? I know that you often ask your interviewees, your guests, like what their definition of greatness is. Well, that's my next question for you. But can you answer it for me?

For me, it's discovering your unique talents and gifts that God gave you to pursue your dreams. And in that pursuit, making the maximum impact on the people around you. And earlier in my life, I would have thought, greatness is about being the best, being number one and winning. And that's kind of what I thought it was when I was like a teenager, 20s, you know, something. And I realized that that definition or that belief in my mind got me those results, but left me feeling unhappy because I was making it all about me and what I wanted, rather about, you know, we and service.

And so then I, as I started to start the school of greatness, Yeah. I went through a healing journey and a journey of more self-discovery and wondering why I was feeling this anger and frustration inside of me, even though I was accomplishing everything that I wanted. Right, you were winning. But why am I unhappy? Why am I, why am I in a breakdown in relationship? Why?

What's going on? Yeah. And I realized I was just like, oh, that's not this secret to a fulfilling life. It's about we. It's about everyone needs to win. It should be about win-win, not win-lose. Right. And in sports, you know, you're just.

condition like win, give your best, like get better and improve. And if you're not a winner, and if you're not a winner, you're a loser. Right. So that framework of sports is a win lose unless you look at sports differently and say, even if I lose, how can I win? Even if I lose, where's the lesson? Where was the growth? Where was the good? What about that moment we had as teammates? Like, what did I learn from my coach? What about that sportsmanship that we created here? Or what about the other team was really negative and nasty? And I responded with my integrity, you know, whatever it might be, where's the win in the loss? And I just never thought of that when I was growing up. I thought, like, if we don't win, that I'm a loser. I am a loser.

Right. And I cannot deal with feeling like I am. Not I experienced a loss. Yeah. It was an identity of I am instead of we experienced this loss in this game, but I am not a loser. And it was like, no, any loss, I am not enough. And so it was more of a, oh, this is unsustainable way of living life. Yeah. And I believe, like your mom, she had an incredible talent and gift that God, someone gave her, that she was curious about. She wanted to paint. And she pursued that for a while.

And then she had to diminish it for a while. And now she's doing it again. And she says she feels ageless. And it doesn't mean she has to be some famous world-class painting. that is recognized in the Philadelphia Museum and makes millions of dollars, but she feels the most alive she's ever felt. It sounds like pursuing her gift and talent.

And I believe it shouldn't be with only ourselves. It should be shared, our gift and talent, whether that's with a small community, friends, family, the world, whatever it might be. But if we don't share it, then I don't think it's greatness. So it's finding way to discover our talents and gifts, sharing with others and making an impact on those people around us with our talents. That's for me what it is.

But what's your definition of greatness? I think greatness is being part of and in service to something larger than yourself. And that is also the definition I would give for meaning. And the longer explanation is this. I think the psychologist who has influenced me at least as much as any other is Victor Frankel. Yeah. Man search. So great.

Stamlinger in response. And I think Victor Frankel is not understood. I think there's a mistake we make when we think of Victor Franco. People are like, oh, right, the psychiatrist who survived Auschwitz, that's true. Stimiless and response, right? Between stimulus and response, there's a space in that space we find our freedom. He often quoted Nietzsche, and he would say things about how you cannot always change your situation, but you can change how you respond to the situation.

And I think that's the lesson that people take from mansearch meaning. and then his own triumph in adversity. Because when you are in a concentration camp, there's very little you can do to change your situation. But if you read Mansearch for Meaning carefully, he says two things that I think are not always understood about Victor Frankel. One is, he says emphatically, when you can change your situation, you should.

Because not to do so would be foolish and masochistic. Don't stay in a horrible situation. I mean, maybe you are in a concentration camp. You have zero degrees of freedom. You can't change like where this cup is. You can't change what's in the cup. You can't change where your phone is. You can't change whether, you know, you hang out with this person or that person.

You have zero freedom. I think Victor Franco, when he escaped, when he was released from the concentration camps, and he came, especially to lecture in America, he said, you know, emphatically that you do have freedoms and so you should consider them responsibly. So that's one mistake we make that, like, Victor Frankel did not want us to only think about how we respond to our situation. Victor Frankel wanted us to be in better situations and make them better for others. And the second thing I was saying... Maybe him where he would have put places first over the people. I don't know.

Victor Frankel, I wish I'm not going to put words in Victor Franklin and he probably would say, oh, it's both. He'd probably put people first. But Victor Frankel had a debate. Like when you talk about what you are trying to accomplish in the short time you have on this planet, Lewis, and I think our definitions of greatness overlap, right? It's about pointing towards something that's not you, right? Like greatness is in self-actualization.

It is what Frankel called self-transcendence. So again, I don't know that people like got into the nitty gritty of what Victor Franco wrote about for the rest of his life because he wrote over 30 books, right? Mansearcher meaning was the first. He had a debate with Abraham Maslow. Abraham Maslow. Really? Yes.

They were contemporaries. Both Jewish. Abraham Maslow born in the Bronx or something or Brooklyn. So like did not survive. the concentration camps, but they sparred, right? They're both great psychologists. The reason why they debate each other is they had a disagreement over what was the highest expression of human existence. In other words, what is greatness? Yeah, yeah. And in 1943, Maslow wrote a paper with a hierarchy of needs on the bottom is like, you know, food and survival. Exactly, all the survival needs. And then

it's like, and then there's to love and be loved and then there's a steep. But the top, right? So he never drew a pyramid, but the top of the top of the. He never drew a pyramid by the top of the hierarchy was self-actualization, realizing your potential, realizing your gifts and your ambitions. But that was not what you gave. You said in service to others, right? So the debate was that Victor Frankl thought Abraham Maslow had missed the final layer. He called it self-transcendence. He said it's not self-actualization. It's to be pointed outward to something greater than yourself, to other people. So I will just say that I think a lesson that I would hope people would take from a careful reading of man's search for meaning and Victor

Frankl is that greatness is not self-actualization. It is self-actualization in service of self-transcendence. I like it. And you can either take that lesson or the fact that, like, you know, Victor Frankel doesn't want you to be a masochist and, like, suffer and a losing. He doesn't want you to be in a bad marriage. He just want to have a toxic, you know, work environment. But I do think that there is so much wisdom there. And I do believe that there is a space between stimulus and response and in there there lies freedom. And I also believe that you can change the stimulus itself. Yeah, like Mary Martha or Jason, like find your Martha, like find your Jason. Like, be with the people who bring out your best. It will change your life. It will change you.

Amen. Amen. Angela, I appreciate you being here. I want to make sure people get the books situated. It's out right now. And also, hopefully we see you more on Instagram because I saw some sparse content on there, but hopefully you're on there more frequently in the future. We're working on it. I changed that situation. You're going to see me on. Angela Duckworth on Instagram, Duckworth Lab on YouTube as well. And Angie, thank you so much for being here.

I appreciate you very much. I enjoyed it. Thank you. My friend, I hope you're enjoying this episode right now because we are on a mission to impact 100 million lives every single week. And every follow here on this podcast helps us reach more people. Make sure to hit the follow at the top of this show. page right now. It's a single biggest thing that you can do to support the show and the impact

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