The School of Greatness - Why Women Lose Desire Faster in Marriage | Esther Perel

Episode Date: November 17, 2025

Esther Perel reveals why modern relationships demand more from us than any generation in history, and why that's actually a gift. Growing up as the child of Holocaust survivors taught her that nothing is permanent, and that dread shaped her life's work around helping people create meaningful connections. She explains why women get bored with monogamy faster than men, why desire dies when you stop taking risks, and why the very things that attract you to someone become the source of your biggest conflicts later. You'll walk away understanding that great relationships aren't about finding the perfect person, they're about choosing someone and deciding to show up differently every day.Esther’s books:Mating in CaptivityThe State of AffairsIn this episode you will:Discover why caretaking is one of the most powerful anti-aphrodisiacs in long-term relationships and what to do insteadUnderstand why committed sex must be premeditated and how waiting for spontaneity guarantees you'll stay stuck in the same patternsLearn why you don't find your partner, you choose them, and how this shift in perspective changes everything about datingBreak through the myth that divorce equals failure and why some 20-year marriages are massive successes even when they endMaster the difference between people you can love and people you can make a life with, and why confusing the two destroys relationshipsFor more information go to https://lewishowes.com/1851For more Greatness text PODCAST to [phone]More SOG episodes we think you’ll love:Baya Voce pt. 1 – greatness.lnk.to/1836SCMatthew Hussey  – greatness.lnk.to/1782SCLewis Howes [SOLO] – greatness.lnk.to/1834SC Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy!Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

There's something really interesting about this country in relation to sexuality. There is an enormous taboo on sex education rather than the understanding that it is actually the repression that will unleash a kind of sexuality that is often about smot and titillation. A psychotherapist, best-selling author, one of the most prominent authorities on relationships Esther Perel. I think there's a number of things in a relationship that become the cornerstones of the demise. indifference and contempt and neglect and violence. I'm not talking about big violence. Microaggressions are plenty.

So how do we even get to this place? After having been so in love, it's so romantic, right? There's only two relationships that resemble each other. Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness Podcast. I'm very excited about our guest today. Thank you so much for being here, Esther Perel. It's a pleasure. You've got an amazing book called Mating in Captivity, Unlocking, Erotic Intelligence.

and so make sure everyone go and check out this book. We'll have it linked up at the end of the show notes as well. I became aware of you before Summit Series. I remember hearing about this book and who you were, but I never really dove into your work until Summit Series happened, which is a conference for essentially inspiring entrepreneurs and people looking to take over the world in their own industry. I call it the mixture of Ted Davos and Burning Man.

There you go, yes, exactly, that type of people, that type of crowd. And you spoke, you were supposed to speak at like a little tiny restaurant on this cruise ship. And I remember going to this and like just the line outside we couldn't even get in. So I remember experiencing that, I've been like, oh, I hope she, you know, talks again. And then you talked like four more times. And so I showed up early for like one of the few ones after that. And it took like an hour for you to start because there was like thousands of people out waiting to try to get in this one session. And so I said, okay, there's something here, this conversation about relationships.

desire, love, intimacy, erotic intelligence, what you call. And there's something here that we're struggling with in our society today. And especially with driven passionate entrepreneurs who are always up to the next big thing, a next shiny object. And so I'm glad that you're able to come in here and be in the studio in L.A. And thank you for being here. And the first question I want to ask before we actually get into all of these juicy relationship questions is who is the most influential person growing up for you in your childhood and what was

the thing that influenced you about them? Oh, the most. I never have one for these kinds of questions. Well, what's one that maybe comes to mind? Someone who was really influential and a lesson they taught you. Okay. I will start with the most close person. I would say my father. Uh-huh. Why? My father was illiterate. Okay. My father and my mother. Actually, both of them came to Belgium by chance after each of them being four and five years in concentration camps in Poland. They both were the sole survivors of their entire family. They came with absolutely nothing. They were illegal refugees for five years before they even became legalized.

And my father always was a person who said, it doesn't matter how brilliant they are or how rich they are. What matters the most is how decent they are. And when you are in a concentration camp, you get to see the limits of a person's humanity and the stretch and the outreach of a person's humanity and their decency. And for some reason, that always stayed with me, meaning don't get impressed by all the appearances and by how everything looks, look at the person. And then he said, and a friend is the person who will always do more for themselves as they

for the other, sorry, as they will do for themselves. That's your friend. and check people out on that basis. And he had never read a book. He couldn't read and write pretty much. He read the newspaper. He spoke five languages but poorly. And he was a grand human being.

And I often, often think of him in relation to that, especially when I come into the entrepreneurial world, which is often a world of inflated selves. Exactly, yeah. Now, what would you say is your biggest fear growing up? Did you have a big fear or insecurity that was a challenge for you? Yes. I grew up in the Flemish part of Belgium, and on one hand, I had nothing to fear on the external level, but I think that the history of my parents was such that I always lived with the feeling that everything can disappear from one minute to the next. I had no sense that what we have is here to stay. I have never thought in terms of permanence.

I happened to be born in Belgium by the fluke of our fatality I don't really belong to a place and for a long time I felt very uprooted by that now I think it actually became also a resource for me in my life but at the time that sense that you know

you cannot count on anything to be there tomorrow just because it's there today right okay that sense of fragility and impermanence and the dread it wasn't fear, it was dread. Do you still have that dread today? Yes, yeah, I do.

I do. It's not a visible dread. But, yes, I have free-floating anxiety that I can't always pinpoint on certain things. But I live with a sense that, you know, actually when everything goes really well. That's what you're afraid of most? Yes, yes.

If it could all be taken away in that day, right? And I, of course, never think that if I go to the doctor, I'm going to come out with a small boo-boo. I think that the day I have something, since I've always been really blessedly healthy, that the day I get something, it will be a big boo-boo. I mean, I have a bit of catastrophic thinking.

Okay. How does that? Even though I act completely counterphobe. I act like I have no fears. Yeah. But inside, there is that little voice that just... So how does that work for you? How does that support you in your day-to-day work

and your relationships by having that dread sense, that feeling? Does it work for you or not? You know, it changed over time. I think with age, you used to, you take your strengths and your weaknesses and you're weak, you know, back and forth. But I think that it has always made me, well, I'll tell you the first thing. Because I, because of the history of my parents, because I, in any way, was kind of a miracle child, my brother too, because we were symbols of revival. and because it proved to our parents

that they still were human in a way, that they could still bring people into the world, I always had a clear sense that my life was not going to be small. Sure. My life has to be big. Big doesn't mean successful and money. Big meant meaningful, rich, layered.

You know. It's not necessarily well-known or famous, but feeling full. Full. Yeah, not dead. Not dead. I mean, there's a reason I write about eroticism, right? And that sense that,

I was not going to be mediocre, you know. I'm not content with just the average of something, that it has to be not the best. It has to be the right one for me at that moment. That may be the beautiful spot or the right friend to be with or the right act to take in relation to somebody or to some cause.

But that sense that my life has to be big. I like it. You know, has been with me since I was... Sure, sure. Okay. So tell me why you wrote this book and why you got into, I guess, this topic in general. What made you want to start to thought this? You know, the funny thing is it's a fluke, actually.

I never wrote about sexuality until about 10, 12 years ago. I did write about relationships, plenty. For the past 30 years, I've been a couples therapist and a relationship expert. I work with companies. I work with families and couples on modern relationships. And that always involved looking at how does cultural change. affect relationships, migration, education, technology, individualism, consumer society. How do all these things, the shift from communism to democracy, how do big cultural changes affect

relationships? Always been doing that. Sex was a kind of a side subject. And then I was basically a little bit looking for a new topic. And I got inspired by the Clinton scandal, basically. When was that? That was in the late 90s. But it moved all the way into the beginning 2000. I don't really have the exact year. But the Clinton Lewinsky scandal for me from a cultural point of view was very interesting. Why was the United States so tolerant about multiple divorces and so intransigent about infidelity?

The rest of the world, and I just spoke to 4,000 people in Mexico a couple months ago, and it was so important to watch this difference. It was the complete contrast to the state. Sure. Has always opted the other way around. You preserve the family at all cost, thanks to women. And you make compromises and tolerance for infidelity. Really?

Yes. All over the world. All over the world. Especially in Europe, it's like every married man seems to have like a mistress. No. Let's be very clear. Americans don't cheat one a yacht less than the French. Say it again?

Americans do not cheat one a yacht less than the French. Right, right, right. They just feel more guilty about it. Right. The friends are just, it's just well-known. It's just part of life, right? It's not part of life. It is changing a great deal. And it's clear that most of the time, throughout history, there has been a complete double standard when it comes to infidelity. It's a privilege for men. It's almost a sanctioned license with all kinds of theories, revolutionary and biological theories that justify their need to roam. and it's been way too dangerous for women but that doesn't mean that you know

you give the woman a car and then you'll see what she will really do you know if you don't trap her into the house right right exactly it's adultery has always existed but what was interesting for me was how how people would scream at it here make it a matter of national political agenda

and not blink an eye at multiple divorces which create the dissolution of the entire family system. Why is that so much preferable to the other? That was the original question. And then I began to think a little bit more about, okay, that leads me to think about Americans and sex. There's something really interesting about this country in relation to sexuality. That fascinates me. I've been working here for almost 30 years at the time. And why is it that in the U.S., sex is the risk factor? And in Europe, being irresponsible is the risk factor. Sex is a natural part of human development. Okay? What do you mean by

irresponsible? Not being protective. Not being respectful. Gotcha. Not being consensual. Or actually the act of doing it. It's part of normal life. We have comprehensive sex education from age four. Why is it that here you have no public health policy on adolescent sexuality? Why is it that despite that, no campaigns and abstinence campaigns, Americans have earlier onset of sexual activity than the most liberal Dutch, more STDs and more teen pregnancies than 35 developing countries combined? Why is that? It's because we're not educated early on. Because there is an enormous taboo on sex education with a kind of sense that if you educate people, they're going to be promiscuous. rather than the understanding that it is actually the repression and the Puritanism

that will unleash a kind of sexuality that is often about smot and titillation. So I basically wrote a little article in a trade magazine, not even in the general... Then it got taken into the broad press, and it led to this book, which is translated in 26 languages. And hence I became, now suddenly I didn't just look at relationships and culture, but I'd look at the triangle, sexuality, relationships and culture, using sexuality to analyze societal changes, cultural changes, families, relationships, and the individual self. What are the core reasons or the core things you see over and over that either end

or make a relationship challenging to be in the longer end? What are the ones that, what are the challenges that come up over and over that you see? So there's always three questions, right? What's a thriving relationship? A thriving one. Yeah. What can go wrong? Uh-huh.

And how do you fix it? Okay. So you started with the middle question. What goes wrong? Yes. I think there's a number of things in a relationship that become the kind of cornerstones of the demise, okay? And I'm not going to lease them in order, but they all are part of each other. other.

Indifference and contempt and neglect and violence are probably the four most important. I'm not talking about big violence. Microaggressions are plenty. Indifference, when you start to feel like the other person fundamentally is not really caring about you anymore or you don't care about them. What they feel, what they think, who they are, what they're about. You just don't care. You've lost interest.

But it's more than losing of interest. It's also when you are indifferent, you degrade the other person. They're less important to you. They don't matter. And ultimately, what we feel in relationships is that we matter. That is the essential reason for connecting to people is that we are creatures of meaning. I matter to you. I'm someone.

You care about me. You want my well-being. You're proud of me. You want good for me. You're benevolent. All of that. When you are indifferent, the whole thing goes. And then you start to this.

coldness that creeps in, that sense of estrangement, that complete disconnect. That. The second one is neglect. Neglect when people just basically take each other for granted. You know, they take more care of their car than of their partner. Or their dog or their dog. Anybody.

Anything. Their yard, anything. Anything gets attended. Their business. They're business for sure. They're business for sure. You know, everything gets priority. Everything gets reviewed, evaluated, attended to three, six, these, you name it, you know, new input.

My God, it's like people have this idea that they put it all in when they were dating, and then once they seal the knot, it's like as if they tie the knot, it's like now they don't have to do squat anymore. And they go into this kind of complete sense of complacency and laziness. It's an amazing thing. They think this thing is just going to live on its own. Right. Like a cactus.

Right. Violence. Violence. The abuse, the level of disrespect. I mean, most people talk now. to anybody else than their partner when a relationship

because you can't get away with it because you can't get away with it because if you talk like this at work you're gone because if you talk like this with the police you're gone because if you talk like this on the street you're being punched

but with your partner you have that sense that they're going to be there anyway they're just going to take it because it's family and family is this kind of this thing that doesn't dissolve so easily

so you can just lash out at them and talk to them with a tone and a dismissal that is phenomenal so that kind of violence I'm not talking physical violence and all the other big things I'm talking about aggression

or resentment or all of that all of that you know passive aggressiveness all those things yeah all of that and then and then

contempt I think is the top one but contempt is the killer of them all because in the contempt there is a real there's the degradation of the other is that complete this you're nothing you're nothing i can kill you with that one gaze that one eyebrow that goes up that you know what do you do you do you think you're right

and that's it you're done you're done so how do we even get to this place of these these places after having been so in love it's so romantic right is desire uh reflect that or if we're not desiring the person anymore then we start to feel one of those categories or does that not point. Look, the truth is this. There's only two relationships that resemble each other. The one you have with your parents or the people who raise you and the one you have with the people you fall in love with.

People can sit in my office all the time and say, I have this with no one else. I don't have this with anybody at work. Nobody among my friends ever thinks like that. You're the only one who speaks like this or thinks this about me or with whom I do this. No. you're the only one and now we go back in history and I'm sorry to be the psychologist

but that's really it is the place where we often learned about closeness, trust, loyalty, commitment, sharing taking, receiving, asking all these essential

verbs of relationships we learned that at home. We also learned jealousy and all the sort of things. Possessiveness, vengeance, you name them. The beauty, the not beauty. Yeah, we saw it all as children,

right? We saw the fights. We saw the love. We saw the coldness. The lack of intimacy, the intimacy, yes. And we bring that with us. And we often promise ourselves, I'll never be that one. I'll never be this way.

I'll never talk like this. You know, and we find ourselves often much closer to the apple. And then resenting ourselves, we resent ourselves. We're like, how do we do this? And then we feel ashamed about it. And since we don't like to feel ashamed about it, we hide it. And one of the way we hide it. is we blame the partner.

That's just one of the ways. We are very resourcefully in not owning our shit. Right, exactly. Exactly. Wow. Okay. And where does sex play in all this

and desire? So, I mean, one of the fascinating things for me in looking at sexuality is that it's probably one of the dimensions of relationship that has changed the most

in a very, very short amount of time. For most of history and in still the majority, majority of the world. Sex is for procreation. Sex is a marital duty on the part of the woman. Nobody cares particularly if she likes it and how she feels and if she wants it. And men have the privilege to go and find sex elsewhere. In a very short amount of time, we're talking 60 years. We have contraception, which is the liberation of women for the first time to free sex from reproduction, from mortality, from death in pregnancy and in childbirthsary, all of

that. And for the first time, sexuality moves from just biology and a condition to a part of our identity and a lifestyle. In 60 years. In 60 years. The women's movement, which goes after the abuses of power. The gay movement, which introduces the concept of identity to sexuality, the fact that sex is for connection and pleasure, the fact that for the first time we have sex before marriage. And many times, a lot. We used to marry and have sex for the first time. Now, we're marry and we stops having sex with others. Right. Right. Right. Monogamy used to be one person for life.

Now monogamy is one person at a time. And people go around telling you, I'm monogamous in all my relationships. And it makes perfect sense to say. Okay? All of that in a very short amount of them. The fact that I choose you to marry or to live together doesn't matter.

Commitment because I'm attracted to you. Because you give me butterflies in my stomach. And the fact that I think that if I don't have these butterflies anymore, maybe I don't love you anymore. And the fact that sexuality in long-term relationships is rooted in wanting only, desire. I feel like it. I want to. Not I have to.

Not we want many kids. After two kids, the only reason to continue doing it with you is because we feel like it. And hopefully, it's pleasurable, we connect, it feels good, it rounds up the answer, the whole thing. That's it. And hopefully it's at the same time and for each other. Because plenty of desire continues, but it's not always at home. Right, exactly. So this is an amazing revolution.

Sex that is really... It's just freezing all of us. And how do we sustain it? So that's why I became fascinated in the nature of erotic desire and how do we sustain desire, because it is the first time ever that we have a grand experiment of the humankind, where we want sex with one person in the long hole, that is fun and connected and intimate and playful and we need twice as long.

Go figure. Right, exactly. For 60 years you're going to be with them or whatever it is. It's an amazing ideal. So how do we navigate this? If we're going to choose one partner and be with them until, you know, we're both gone, how do we navigate the challenge of keeping the desire continuously? I think the both men and women.

Yes. The woman probably sees other men who are attracted to her. you know, vice versa. So it's like, how do both parties do this? Look, we know that women get bored with monogamy

much sooner than men. Wow. Is this a factor? That's research. Okay. That's not just fact. That is men's desire in long-term relationship

goes down gradually. He actually is much more able to remain interested. And maybe just because he's interested in the experience itself and he has a partner there, women's desire post-marriage of life. Really?

Wow. And it's always been translated as Well, that's because women care less about sex. Rather than it's because women care less about the sex that they can have in their committed relationships, which is often not interesting enough for them. And it often has to do with the fact that the story, the character, the plot is not seductive. The romance, which is an essential ingredient of turn-on for the woman,

often disappears in the long-term relationship. It's like, when people look at each other at the end of the day, that you want to fool around, you want to do it, you're up for it tonight? Now, this is really not, this is not very much of a turn-on for most women.

And the idea that foreplay often starts at the end of the previous orgasm, you know, and not five minutes before the real thing. Right. Which for her is not the real thing.

The whole, the real thing is everything else around there. So it's actually the game. Yes. It's creating a game. It's a deduction. It's a plot. It's a coming close.

It's a tease. It's what animals call pacing. It's that I come to you, but I don't overwhelm you. I come just a little bit so that you can come a little bit toward me, and then I don't immediately I'll try to actually go back a little bit too. Have you ever seen animals? They do this

kind of pacing, and it is an essential playful ingredient of seduction and excitement. So women's desire plummets, but we interpret it as women are less interested in sex, rather than women are interested in probably

just about the same kind of things that many men are, but women have always known what to choose above what turns them on, which was what gives them stability and security, family, someone to protect, be there, right? So what people do, look, this is, we want one partner today to give us everything that involves stability and security and everything that involves playfulness and mystery. Okay, that's the grand idea. Okay, I want to be cozy with you and I want to have an edge and I want you to surprise me

and I want you to be familiar and I want you to give me continuity and I want you to give me novelty. That's it. As if it's a, right? And no Victoria's secret is going to solve that. Yeah. Right. So then it becomes, what is desire? Desire is to own the wanting. If you ask people a question that goes like this, I turn myself off when? I turn myself off by. Not you turn me off when and what turns me off is. You're going to hear I turn myself off when I do emails, when I spend to mention I'm on the phone, when I overeat, when I don't exercise, when I have bad days at work, when I don't feel confident, when I numb myself, when I feel dead, when I don't feel thriving, when I'm not alive, you will really hear that it has very little to do with sex.

And when you ask people, I turn myself on when or by, I awaken my desires. Not you turn me on when and what turns me on is, which is you're responsible for my wanting. What people will talk to you about is when I'm in nature, when I'm connected with my friends, when I get to do my sports, when I play music, when I listen to music, it's stuff that gives me pleasure that is alive, that is vibrant, that is vital, that is erotic in the full sense of the world as life force. And from that place, people remain interested in having sex with somebody else for the

long haul. Not because they've scratched their arms for two seconds, you know? It's, I feel good about myself. The biggest turn on is confidence. Confidence. You ask people, when do you find yourself most drawn to your partner? Every description has to do with when they're in their element, when they're on stage, when they're doing their sport, when they, when they are radiant, when they are in their studio, on the piano, on the horse, you name it. It's when they are in their element, i.e., they don't need me to take care of them.

They're not depressed and down of being sad. They're not need it. They don't need me because desire is about wanting you. Love is also about needing you. Caretaking is a very powerful experience in love and it is a very powerful anti-aphradisiac. So how do you experience love and desire at the same time? You calibrate it. So sometimes you're...

It's the same as when you walk. You have to move from one foot to the other. A balance is not about staying on one side. A balance is the ability to see right now we don't need caretaking. We can be mischievous, we can be naughty, we can be playful, we can break our own rules, we can stay home and not go to work at 8 o'clock. Right. And now we are in a playful zone.

Now we are feeling that we are bringing our own little transgressions home and we are alive. We're not just being dutiful, responsible, good citizens. Right. It's that. It's very small, you know. I always think when I go and I see people at lunch and you see them talking and they're well-dressed and they're awake and all.

I see who is here with their partner? Because you can see them. They're engaged. They're giving the best of themselves. That's erotic. No, the majority are not there with their partner. They're there with their friends, with their colleagues. Their partner is going to get the leftover

when they come home at night. Sorry, you know what? Forget the night date. Meet at lunch when you actually have energy. You know? And in the middle of the day like that, when you're awake, when you have something to offer, it's a very small thing, but they don't do it. They don't do it. And you say, why not? Why not? Why don't you stay an hour extra at home in the morning and not just because when you have a headache? And just say, this matters to me. All and all, you know, committed sex is premeditated sex. It's not just going to happen. Because whatever is going to just happen already has. So you're going to make it happen. Because you say, we matter. we're important. Let's do this. It doesn't mean if you're going to

make love or have sex. It just means we're going to take this hour and there's nothing else that matters in this moment, but just you and I to be together, to check in. And then we'll see what unfolds. That's the erotic space in which sex may happen. Probably will. It doesn't have to.

But it is the place from which it is much more likely to emerge. But people don't do that. They do the responsibility. That's the love, right? The citizen, the commitment, the care. taking the burdens, the safe. And then they say I'm bored.

I would be too. Exactly. There's no mystery. There's no risk taking, right? Exactly. There's no risk taking. That's the word. If you want desire, it's risk. And the risk is an emotional risk. It's not about sexy risks. It's really a risk on the emotional front

is that I bring something else to you differently from differently from the way I typically present myself. You know, how can I do this what can I do today that will be different

from the ways that I've done it until now? How can I do something that I think would actually improve our relationship? Me, right? Not something that I want

or that you want, but that I think would be actually good for us, that third entity, the us, right? And you check every time, you know,

how often do you just go on the tried and trodden as in, you know, it works. sex that just works for most people is really not interesting enough because what does it mean

it works generally right what about the people listening and her saying man that sounds like a lot of work that every day you have to change you do something different and unique and be not every day not every day not every day but what you can do every day

is just a quick check with yourself you know is there something that I should notice is there something that I can be thankful for is there a little note that I could write Is there, you know, just a way that I can show up, it's small, it's really small. Here's the thing, there is work and then there is the creative work. You know, I'm talking about a level that is creative and that elevates you and that actually gives you, you feel taller. You just feel like you're engaged, you feel awake rather than this.

This is the other seated position. It's comfortable. It's great, but nothing happens here. Sure. This is alert. Here's the essential word is curiosity. When you're curious, you lean forward and you watch, you're open to the mysteries of life. This is, please, don't bother me with anything because I don't want any stimulation.

I've had my share, you know. And this is the position that most people have at home. So when people say it's too much work, I basically say look if I was to say this in your business would you say this is too much work or you would say that's very good advice this is high rate consulting fees

it's like excuse me but you don't think for a minute that your business would thrive if you let it languish like that never you have a reward system you have incentives bonuses you have bonuses

But there is no incentivized system in the private domain. So people just think, why bother? And that's the difference, is that the ones who have good relationships are the ones who created their own internal incentivized system. What are some of those incentive systems that you've seen over time that really work are effective for long-term relationships? I would say the first thing is almost one of the first things that our parents teach you. Please and thank you.

do you know how many people stop thanking their partners thank you thank you for doing this familiar thank you for picking up the shirts thank you for you know making you feel appreciated yes appreciation appreciation is huge uh gratitude acknowledgement of the presence of the other in your life not did you do this did you call did you pick up do this you know half the time expectations Expectations. Of course, you know, expectations is often a resentment in the make. But the expectation comes the fear of it's not going to thank person, first of all. And because it also makes it feel like this is not a given. Nobody owes you squat.

You're not owed anything. You're not that important. You're actually quite replaceable. And with the divorce rate that we have, what's the rate at right now? You have 50 on first and 65 on second. 65 in second, wow. It's not good. Right. It's really, you know, it costs a lot of money. It's not good for the health.

I mean, it's just like, you know, it's not good for the jobs. It's just, it's like, okay, now you could say maybe people should marry, but it doesn't matter if it's marriage legally or the idea is that we can do better. We can do better in general. I really think that the quality of our lives depends on the quality of our relationships. I mean, nobody's got a right. you know, you worked 60, 70, 80, 90 hours a week. And, you know, no, they're going to say he was there for people when they needed to. He was there at every game.

He was there at a party. He's the guy who, when you were in his presence, he had charisma, not because he could stand in front of a huge crowd, but he had charisma because when I was in his presence, he made me feel special. It's a different charisma. So, appreciation. Gratitude, thank you. Little things to go out of your way

rather than just to do the minimum. A lot of people start to do the bare minimum just so that they can't be scolded. Right. Go an extra thing. On occasion, just do something for the other person just because it matters to them even if you couldn't care less.

Right. Rather than, I don't, it's not important to me. I don't need this or I don't care about this. Give each other a lot of individual space. Not everything needs to be shared. People have different passions, different interests, different friends, and they need those separate spaces to exist. Admiration, I think, is huge. Because admiration is also that you kind of really see the otherness of the other person.

Don't try to make your partner into one person for everything. There is no such a person. Find multiple sources of connection, of intimacy, of friendship, so that you can have a a group of people support you and don't have one person who has to be there for you for everything, especially when you're in the dumpster? We just have a village of people to do that and now we just expect one person to be the village, right?

Yes, yes, yes, one person for the whole village. That is a unique, and then we're upset when they don't fulfill the mandate. And that's the more important. Like, I can't talk to you, you're not supportive of me, you're not excited for me, you know, excuse me, find other people. Right. You know.

I can't be everything for you yet. No. Exactly. Can we talk about, you know, what marriage was about early or when it started? Do you know the history of marriage and how it's evolved and where it's at now and kind of like how we look at it in society? So I won't go back millions of years because it's a long history and we were actually much more polygamous and much more polyamorous and all of that. But the model from which we come is basically this. Marriage used to be an economic enterprise.

It was a mercantile range. men depended on women's fidelity for patrimony and lineage so that I can know who are my children and who gets the cows when I die. When was this? What time frame? This is pretty much still, it still is in most parts of the world, by the way, and I would say it's probably we're going to go about 50, 60 years back. Okay.

That's it. People didn't choose who they married. You know. people didn't choose who they married. Arranged marriage is the norm still in many parts of the world. Certainly you didn't marry because you fell in love. You married somebody

who was a good person with whom to have a family with and if love grew that was wonderful but it was not the beginning element of a relationship. Desire certainly was not what sex was about in marriage.

So this is the traditional model that doesn't mean that there was no good sex and intimate sex. That doesn't mean there was no passion. And that doesn't mean there was no love. But that was not what the institution of marriage was meant for. Marriage that becomes a romantic arrangement,

I will begin that at the end of the 19th century. It's about 150 years old. But it needs contraception. It needs a lot of, it needs feminism. And it's a lot of things to become what we want today, which is a relationship that is rooted in intimacy. Intimacy, which until not too long ago was basically, We live together, we share the vicissitudes of everyday life, we raise the kids, we work, the land.

Intimacy now is into me see. I share with you my inner life. That required individualism. Before individualism, we didn't have the concept self. That's beginning of the 20th century, late 19, beginning 20th. So it's a lot of things go together, you know. The rise of individualism, to move away from religion as the center, the person becomes the center, hence my individual happiness

becomes central. Now I move away from the community. I choose you and as I choose you now you become responsible to alleviate my existential aloneness.

You know, that's why you become my village because I've left the village and you're going to make me feel that I matter because I'm not judged by my actions. I'm judged by my personality.

It's very different. I'm not, you understand, It's a whole new thing. It's like who I am, not what I do, as in do I show up in church? Am I an upstanding citizen? You know, am I doing right by my parents? It's personality. It's a whole new thing.

Right. So trust, affection, intimacy, desire, become the four pillars, you know, within modern relationships. That is a whole new model. Affairs used to be, actually, adultery for most of history, was the space where we People went to look for true love because marriage was arranged and economic. Now that we brought love into marriage, adultery destroys it. So what did we do? We brought love into marriage.

We brought sex to love. We connected happiness to relational, to emotional and sexual satisfaction. And we also want a passionate. marriage, which for most of history has been a contradiction in terms. Passion has always existed, but somewhere else. Right. In the affair or in whatever. Yes, wherever. Wow.

Wherever. How are we supposed to navigate all this? I mean... Actually, I think it's exciting. Okay. I really do, because nobody, in effect, wants to go backwards. No, absolutely not. Nobody wants to go back where you are stuck.

This is it. You have one chance for life. And the only thing you have going is that you die younger. Right, exactly. Okay, you actually have the opportunity to do it again, to try a different story, to be a different person, to be a better partner, and to be a better parent for that matter.

And I think that that is something that we've never had is the opportunity to rewrite that story. We always had one job for life and one relationship for life. I think one of the, you know, of course we therefore didn't have to decide five times, what do I want to do. Right. But we have been given a unique opportunity.

I can have more than one career or more than one job, more than one identity in this world, and I can have a whole new family, and I can have a whole new love that I can start at 60, 40, 50, 60, and I have another 20 years with somebody and actually do it better this time. I think that is actually one of the greatest gifts we've been given. How long have you been married?

30-something. 30-something years? Okay. And how is your work, two kids, and how is your work and the constant conversation you're in about this work supported or not supported your relationship with your husband? You know, there was a comment that I once made a few years back and it's become a line in one of my TED Talk. So, you know, where I said. most of the people today are going to have two or three relationships

in the end of the marriages or just relationships committed relationships I could say marriages I could say marriages but let's say in Europe so many of us don't marry so I would say committed relationships most of us are going to have two or three committed relationships in our lifetime

due to divorce due to death various things some of us are going to do it with the same person I have had probably three marriages to the same man not because we divorced or anything but because over 30 years

we have had to redefine ourselves to restructure everything that you do in companies to change our brand What works for five years is not going to work for the next five years. What works when we are just two is not the same as what works when we are four What works when we are in our 20s isn't the same as when we are

in our 50s What works when we have this type of career is not the same as now You know, and I think that the very principles that you apply to companies today, flexibility, fluidity, the ability to reinvent itself, to redefine itself, to manage tradition and innovation is really what has to enter into all modern love. That's what coupledom is about. Those who can do it, do it with each other, and the other ones do it by finding a new person.

So what's the ideal relationship moving forward in our... It's this. It's you sit every once in a while and you say, how are we doing? What are the strengths between us? What, you know, I actually think people should have... Do different commitment ceremonies in the course of a marriage. Really? Yes, I think that every few years or every year they should have a little summit

or they should have a little, whatever they want to call it, they could have a ceremony or we kind of, where are we at, checking in? How are we doing? What has been good in our life? What could we do better? What could we do differently? Are we doing right by our children? Are we giving, you know, are we meeting some of our important needs at this point? What has changed for us?

We've just been sick. We've just lost a parent. We've just lost a child. What's changing in our life? And to actually address this head-on, what the problem is in modern couples is that most of the big topics are addressed when there is a crisis rather than when actually things are good. When you're calm. When you're calm.

Of course, you have less incentive to change when things are good. But you have less creativity to change when things are bad. Same for companies, same for couples. Wow. So I think retreats for couples are unique, actually, because couples are often isolated units. They talk to nobody. Sometimes women will talk to women, men will talk to no one.

And when a group of couple come together in a group, it is powerful. It is so normalizing to know what's happening at the neighbors that you never know and that you can always imagine is different from yours. It's so powerful to hear your partner, like you can never hear them because somebody else just said the same thing. But just with a different word or just with a little bit more distance so that you're not instantly reactive and defensive. I think that that conversation between couples, the same way that you can, bring entrepreneurs together to a mastermind to talk about their company. They hear something in a different way that it finally lands with you and you can take action

towards it. Yes. I think that if we could actually bring the entrepreneurs and their partners, it would be an incredible thing. I do a lot of it with WIPO, with DO, with all these areas. I see it each time. And not to separate the partners from the others. No, actually have the people in the room, you know, have a fishbowl where the entrepreneurs

talk about what their life says and then have a fishbowl on the other side where the next inner circle is where the partners talk about what it's like to live with the entrepreneur and have each of them listen to the other. It's been one of the richest conversations I've had in that space.

Wow. Okay. And what's your thoughts on divorce? You know, as you said over 50% are divorced the first time and over 65, the second time. Do you believe that, or do you think it's, you know, that people should experienced divorce or they should go through that or do you think they're being lazy or do you think that they're just not committed to it enough or that they haven't tried all the different

things to become better themselves and to see the good in their partner? I would start differently. Is that a bad question? No, no, no, no, no, not at all. But I would say differently. I would think that the first thing that has to happen with divorce is to take away. way, the concept of failure. As long as we still think that it is marriage for life till death do us apart,

when de facto for the majority of couples today, it's till love dies. Not till death do us apart. That's when we divorce. We break up when love dies. Yes. And then we think it's a failure. I think that

a relationship that has lasted for 15, 20, 25 years sometimes, that's not a failure. It's a huge success. long time. He's a good success. And they may have done certain things poorly and other things very well. I think a lot of people who divorce don't have the chance to actually appreciate how many good things they had in their relationship and to do what I like to call, you know, Al-Aguinette Paltrow, the conscious uncoupling. Meaning, you know, of Catherine Woodward Thomas, do you know her? Yeah. Goodbye. This is what I really am thankful for that we had together.

This is what I take with me from what we had together. This is what I wish for you as we move forward. This is how I hope our children will remember us. That is a very different departure. And when you do that departure, you also have a very different continuity in your next relationships later than carrying bitterness and victimization and resentment and all of that. So I think that many people, something ends.

you know but they moved in together they helped each other through school they helped each other in the beginning of their careers they helped each other when their parents were sick they helped each other when their parent died they helped each other with raising children this is a lot of what marriage is about they've had good marriages for all sake and purposes

and maybe other things have come in and they were not necessarily always that nice to each other and maybe they hurt each other and maybe they abandoned each other and maybe they betrayed each other lots of other things come in too but this stuff all disappears because of the negative that then sits on it, making it look like their marriage didn't work out.

It failed. Why? It failed because it ended. The only time it's successful is when they meet in the funeral home. Interesting. So you think we should redefine or look at it differently? Yes. I think that marriage has to be disentangled from the concept of...

Got to us part. Yes. I think that divorce as the proof that the marriage failed is the wrong. conclusion. It's not right. And it takes away from people decades of enormous endeavors and constructive stuff. It's not because a company closed that a company failed. Right. They closed all the time. Yeah. Okay. Interesting. So are you saying that since our we're evolving and growing and having different needs and desires and things like that, that we should expect, you know, to start a family and then get divorced and how is that going to affect our children's lives

growing forward? She would be expecting more of that and be okay with just, well, now I've got a new partner and a new stepmom or stepdad and this is how we have multiple families now. How is that going to be moving forward? Listen, when there was no divorce, basically the ones who took the brunt of it were the women. the supposed stability of the family basically rested because the woman stayed put made sure that the children had

were taken care of were taken care of the man went out and they would want many times many times if they had the possibility they certainly would so I think that we definitely have a model today that is more focused on the adults

when you divorce it's for the well-being of the adult it's not for unless there's real egregious, you know, issues in the family. It's not for the benefit of the children. It's the benefit of the adult. A divorce is not the end of the family. It's the reorganization

of the family. It's the end of the couple, but it's not the end of the family. And if the couple can disentangle with more integrity and more respect and more real thoughts about the children, not manipulation about it for the good of the children, then

the family can actually reorganize better. And this is where it's going to go. So we can bemoan it, but the fact is we better think about a better way of doing it so that the children, the children of today, look, the millennials of today,

50% of them, are either the children of the divorce or the disillusions. Yeah. Can't answer the divorce, yeah. And half of them, half of you, men grew up with single mothers. So you've come out with a very different kind of emotional intelligence. Right. Because

you actually were speaking to those mothers at the table the whole time and they engaged you in conversations in ways that often did not take place if the father would have been at the table. So you come, I think it's a very, very beautiful new generation of men actually

that emerges out of this, that we don't think of it. They were at the table with mom and when mom said, how was you day? She was not content with just, it was good or he was all right. She said, what? She had another question and another question.

And you've developed, of an emotional literacy that most boomers don't have a clue about men. Sure. That a millennial man really has available. Interesting.

I don't think you've ever thought of that. Yeah, that's great. That's great. Yeah, yeah. You see it. I mean, watch yourself at the table, at breakfast. You know, there was a whole...

That conversation did not happen when dad was at the table. Not that there was no conversation. It was a different conversation. So I think families are reorganizing. And that's okay. Yes. Yes.

It's not failures. It's not bad. It's not wrong. We have blended families. We have single parent families. We have gay families. We have accordion families. We have long-distance families.

We have the fastest growing model of couples in America today is the lat, living apart together. That is the fastest growing. And it's a boomer. model. It's the people after 55, okay, who are in relationships but don't live with their partner. Interesting. Why? Because they often have their own families, because they have their own living arrangement, because one of them is still working, one of them is already preparing and downsizing, lots of different reasons for why they prefer to have the benefits of the connection and of the relationship. And their own space. And their own space. Interesting. Or because they want

to stay closer to their children or grandchildren, why the other person has their grandchildren. elsewhere, it's millions, millions. Because the question of the lot is what will happen when they get older. Do you have the same commitment to a person who is aging and getting sick when you have not lived with them and you have maintained so much of your own life? Because I meet you in my 50s, I have a whole life and I'm not willing to let go of that life. I'm willing to be with you and connectings, but I don't want to let go of my.

the whole world of my own, you know? Yeah, yeah. So that's the LAT model. And we don't know what the LAT model will do for public health. Yeah. We know that men, you know, live better in older age when there is somebody next to them. They don't take good care of themselves. Yeah, of course.

Should we expect, you know, moving forward in relationships with our time, that monogamy is something that we're going to be able to do? Or with the, there's always something better option. that it's more available now than ever, especially with social media, online dating. There's distractions constantly. Yeah, you don't have to leave your house anymore. Exactly, yeah. You can pretty much cheat on your partner while lying next to them in bed.

Exactly. But we are by definition already doing serial non-monogamy. You know, most of us don't come to marriage, monogamous. We've come to marriage after years of nomadism, sexual nomadism. So monogamy is a concept that has already been redefined through our. You asked me before about how has marriage changed. But monogamy had nothing to do with love for most of history. Monogamy became about love with romanticism.

It's the sacred ideal of the romantic ideal because the sacred cow, because monogamy means I'm everything. I'm it. I'm the one. I'm chosen. I'm unique. And if you are interested in someone else, it means I'm not enough. Versus monogamy, which was basically for patrimony and for children.

children, you know, so. So how should we navigate this moving forward? I think that's the concept of monogamy, look, if I had talked to you 70 years ago about premarital sex and virginity was a precondition, you would have looked at me like this is a taboo, this is impossible. Today, premarital sex in the West, it's like nobody blinks an eye. Okay, it would have been inconceivable, okay? If I had talked to you about going from families of eight-tail children to families of one

child, you would have looked at me inconceivable. If I had told you that we were going to be conceiving so many children through assisted reproduction, inconceivable. So today, when you say open relationships or non-monogamous or periodically non-monogamous or monogamous, shall a dan, savage, or, you know, or polyamorous, people will say, can't work, impossible, you know. The fact is monogamy is the new frontier. But you can have it as negotiated through divorce. But you can have it as negotiated through divorce, or through what most people have always done, which is proclaimed monogamy and clandestine adultery, or you can do it through a model of transparency in which people have consensual non-monogamy. This is it. This is the options. Right. What do you think

is going to be working the most of the people? It's going to be a little bit of everything. There are some people who really need stable, committed monogamous relationships. They don't want open doors. And there are other people for which open doors probably should be the model from the start. That's kind of who they are. That's their curiosity. That's the way they live their life. And it's not because they're less committed or less loving. It's because their sexuality is organized in a certain way and it lives together with a certain arrangement. And all of that is going to be redefined as we go along. It's de facto what's going to happen. It will be the next frontier. But

if you see it on the level of marriage, people say if you say, okay, let's look under you know, you have to look at it from the place of before marriage. You know, a Swedish philosopher said, today, monogamy only

exists in reality. It doesn't exist in your memories and it doesn't exist in your fantasies. So this is not because I advocated. It's just First of all, there's nothing to advocate. It's very simple that by definition we have multiple sex partners before marriage.

We are not monogamous anymore in the traditional sense of the world. The world has been in flux and we don't really know where it's going. We don't. What we know is that people still seek to connect. People want to love. People want somebody who loves them. And how that will play itself out is. the mysteries of life, but the fundamental human need for love, for connection, for passion,

for transcendence will never change. The expressions, the forms, the institutions in which we will seek those fundamental human aspirations will continuously transform. That's really how I see the evolution taking place. Sure. What do you think of what I'm saying? Oh man, It's just so, you know, it's confusing because you hear so many different options that work, that don't work. You see people that love each other that go through breakup and divorce, you see, and then you see the pain and the struggle and the emotional tool that it takes on some people. Then you see people who are in, you know, committed monogamous relationships who feel guilty because they want to be able to explore, but they can't because they've made this choice and they've committed to it. Monogamy is a practice. We are not by nature, biologically, evolutionary monogamous.

It's a practice. It's a choice. And it's a choice. Not our makeup. No. And it's a choice. And monogamy is a continuum. You know, you have mind, you have fantasy, you have memory, you have a lot of things.

At what point do we become non-monogamous? Where does non-monogamy start? And all of these concepts are fluid. concepts today. There is just no way to define it like that. So we make our choices

and we make compromises and we sometimes don't just do what we want and we often need to think about the consequences of our actions and we need to think about the larger picture

and something that may be perfectly desirable for tonight may not be worth it for the next weeks and the next year. Yeah, exactly. And I think that in the era of self-fulfillment and the right to happiness, we don't have more desires

today than the previous generations. We just feel more entitled to fulfill our desires. And we feel that we have a right to be happy, my personal happiness. The switch, the greatest switch, is from a social organization in which I think about the well-being of others. Collectiveist thinking thinks about the well-being. of others and I sacrifice my own individual needs for the well-being of others. To the other side of the continuum is I have a right to pursue my individual needs and the others will have to adapt to it. And I think that we are a little bit on the extreme end of the other side at this point. We really take ourselves a little very seriously and sometimes

at the detriment of other people to whom we do have an obligation and a commitment to, not just our partners of the world the world so where should we be somewhere in the middle you think or what's in an examined state i don't know that it's always in the middle but in an examined state in a state that doesn't just say what i like what i feel the fact that i have options doesn't mean i have to exercise all these options the problem of consumer life is that we don't know anymore to make choices same with the cereals in the supermarket why would it be better with love so i could get better I could get better. I'm like, you know, I'm a victim of FOMO.

You know, how do I know this is the best? No, you don't. When do I find the best? No, you don't. You don't find your partner. You choose your partner. It's very different. You know, if you think you're going to find somebody who is the person who's going to make you stop looking,

it doesn't work this way. Really? No, it doesn't. Because at some point, urinal rumblings will start up again and then you will say, oh, start looking. You know, it's like you just say, this is it. This is where I decide to put my roots in this moment, you know, and I'm going to try to deepen them. I think we are all living with paradoxes of choice, you know, from which phone I get, but we cannot commodify a partner and just kind of beta test the partner and beta test the relationship and check out to see, is it good enough or can I find better else?

Yes, the fact is you could find other. I'm not sure it would be better but you definitely can find other and there are lots of people you can love and there's only a few you can make a life with and they're not always the same there are a lot of people you can have love

stories with and have beauty but they're not the person you would make a life How do you know when it's the person you can make a life with? I think values enter into there a lot more I mean you can have magnificent love stories with people you would never live with. They're just

too different from you. They have not the same values as you. One wants child, one does not. One wants to travel, the other does not. One wants career, the other. Very major, different classes, different different Veltan showing, as they used to say in German, you know, visions of the world.

But you can love them. You can have a beautiful love story with that person and be transported in your experience with them. But you know that that's not the person with whom you're going to build a home, a future, a trajectory, maybe a family if you want that. That's not the person with whom. And for that, you need more of shared vision,

shared mission, shared values, stuff that is not just in the domain of feelings, but also in the domain of beliefs. it's different. Views about money. Views about independence and separateness versus connection. Views about emotional expressiveness. Views about power.

What did you say that those differences that we have also attract us to other people? That we have some of those differences. Maybe we don't share the same values or beliefs, but it's also different, unique, interesting. And so it also brings us together or do you think it's not enough? I think that what attracts you originally is often what becomes the source of conflict later. The very thing that is so attractive

because it's different is also the very thing that becomes difficult because it's different. Interesting. So, of course, it's a mix and match. You know, but what makes thriving relationships is not only feelings. It's a mix of feelings,

actions, beliefs, touches, physicality. It's a more all-encompassing thing. A beautiful love story can be just about feelings. And you can love more people than those that you can make a life with.

That doesn't mean you make a life with people you don't love. But it means that there is a whole other set of ingredients that enter into the making of a life, which is the creation. of a word, it's a little different.

And in that world, you often can be on the side of, you know, there's a lot of sentences today that I never heard 20 years ago in coppers therapy. This is a raw deal. I'm not getting my needs met. Where is my return on investment? Wow.

Excuse me. Excuse me. Somebody owes you? It's like, wow. It's, I am in a relationship. for what it's going to give me, that is an important piece. I don't misunderstand me.

But I'm also in a relationship for what I'm going to give to this person. For what I'm going to give, if I want children, to these children, not just for what they're going to bring to me. It's like the level of narcissism has to be shrunken a tiny bit on occasion. Right, exactly.

It's just like, you know, I mean, I'm part of that same, you know, landscape, but on occasion, I think it's like you calibrate it. On occasion, some of us need to really learn to think more about ourselves.

And some of us really need to think more about others. Some of us live with the fear that we're going to be abandoned. And some of us live more with the fear that we're going to lose ourselves. Some of us are better takers and need to

learn to give. And some of are consummate givers and we need to learn to take. And often we find a partner who is exactly the missing link. And that can be a beautiful complementarity if we actually get to use the other person to become more whole, to learn from them. And we need both. You need to be able to think about yourself

and to know what you want and all of that. But you also need to be able to remember that others exist near you, your family, your friends, you know, your loved ones. Sure. And that that's what will make the difference

the day you die and who will show up at your funeral, basically. I love this conversation. I have four questions for you left. I feel like I could ask a lot more and I want everyone to make sure they pick up the book,

mating captivity. We'll have it linked up here at the end. The first one is, what are you most grateful for recently in your life? recently in my life I had a kind of a medical scare so I'm actually very grateful that it turned out to be nothing.

A small boo-boo, not a big one. It was a big boo-boo. I thought it was a big boo-boo, but it ended up being a small run. So that's actually probably the first one that comes to me. I have, you know, I spend most of my career in the professional academic world and in the last two or three years,

I've really crossed over to the mainstream. And that has entered me into Ted and Aspen and the entrepreneur space and summit and Sudad. I mean, it's worldwide. And I think that it's been a wonderful, taking what I've done in the four walls of my office to a larger platform and being actually a psychologist,

not just in the therapeutic space, but in the larger cultural space in the world that's been great thing going digital the idea that I can actually help people and give people an elevated conversation about relationships and that embraces the complexity and that meets them where they're at through my online courses and through this whole new platform that's been a trip it's been a fantastic creative journey for me it's been just one year So I'm very grateful for that because it's been fun, creative, new, very different for a therapist actually to move into kind of thought leader if you want and being part of a more global conversation. Sure. Great.

And I'm actually, in many ways, I'm much happier today because because I've become more, if I miss something, I no longer think, oh shit, I would never get a It's like I used to want, you know I'm like, okay, it's all right. I don't have to have gone to three things Right, right, exactly. Full?

To go back to the beginning of our conversation, I feel that today is full even if I haven't binged. Okay. I used to need to binge for the day to be full. I no longer feel like that.

I like that. Good things to be grateful for. A second question is, if someone's looking to get into find a partner, a long-term partner, a committed relationship for our marriage, what's one piece of advice you would say to go enter into that relationship to find that relationship? If you give one piece of advice. Yes. Ask yourself, what do I want to give to someone?

Don't just ask yourself, who do I want to meet and what characteristics do I want in that person and make a list of all the things that the other person needs to have. Think in the reverse. What do you want to bring to somebody? What do you want to bring in, you know, what's the love that you want to put out into the world, the love, the caring, the benevolence, you know,

over for another person. I think that that's probably much better than the checklist that most people go dating with. Here's what I want. Yes. Here's what you need to be for me, for me to then be interested in you, you know? Right.

Be compelling to someone else. rather than ask, wait for them to dazzle you so that you can swipe in one direction or another. Right, okay. You know? And that would be the first thing, I would say. And that's it. That would be the most important one.

And don't think just like this is the best. You're not buying a product. No, it's not the best. Just decide in advance. But neither are you. It's just the one that you say, This is it. Because often, you know, you pick somebody because you're ready. But there were plenty of others you met before that could have been fantastic partners for you. Just you were not there in your life. You were not ready for that commitment, that decision. So you were ready to have beautiful experiences, relationships, lovers, you know, and you love these people. But you were in your 20s. What did you know about life? You know, about wanting to build something. Now you're 33 and you say, okay, now I want to do it. So it's the timing. It's your maturity that makes you make the choice,

not only the person that you are being dazzled by. So that would be when you go dating. I like that. Question number three, if it's your last day here on Earth. And your book is gone. It's been deleted from history. Everything you've ever created has been gone. For some reason, it just got deleted.

And you're on bed, and everyone you love is there. And they give you a piece of paper. and they say, will you write down the three things that you know to be true about your experience in this world, the three truths about what you learned and this is the last thing that will, this is the only thing we'll ever know

or have left about you? What do you think you'd write down about the three truths? So, I, you know, I am a connector and an enormous amount of people in my life know each other through me. Yeah. Worldwide.

It's always been something I love to do maybe because I had no family and I was one child of two people, you know, soul survivors, I think just recreating a tribe was something that came very natural to me. And I would write

I have touched a lot of people who have and I will continue to live on in their memories because so many of them are now interconnected. Interesting. I have created a lot of beautiful events that were fun celebratory, abundant, where a lot of people

came together. And I have had a great relationship with the men that I've lived with at least for now, for the 35 years of my life. And I've raised two boys who, if I was a woman interested in men, I would have wanted to date them. There you go. I love it. I love it. Before I ask the final question, Esther, I just want to say that I acknowledge you for being here and the continuous commitment to the work you do to supporting so many people in the world about navigating relationships and understanding how to have full, rich, meaningful experiences and relationships. I think the work you're doing is so powerful, especially today, more now than ever. And I just want to acknowledge you for the gift that you bring to so many people.

So thank you. Thank you. Final questions. What I ask everyone at the end is what's your definition of greatness I went to a company recently and they asked me that question I think

irreverence is a big part of it there's going to be a few words integrity but that's often irreverence not to take the accepted

as the given. I don't think that that's because that's what we do or that's how we think that that definition means that it's right or it's true. So I am a person who questions, I topple sacred cows, I open up possibilities,

I'm rather non-judgmental and I like to shed a whole new light on something that people think they've already heard a lot about and to rethink or kind of challenged the conversation. Those words go into creativity

but greatness is that. Greatness is when you poked at something and when you started out it existed like that and when you ended

it became something completely different and I think mating actually mating or the courses in general I'm countering intuitive. I have, you know, I think people come in, I'll just give it you like that.

People have a story. Every person who comes to therapy or every company who comes for me to consult, they have a story. They describe themselves a certain way. Greatness is when they can come in with one story and live with a completely different one. I love that. It's a perfect that dig. Esther Perel, thank you so much for being here. Where can we find you online? Where can we connect with you? What's the best place to go? All right. So it's www. www. Esther Porell.com. you opt in with me. I connect with you. I communicate with you.

We're in conversation. I never harassed, but I inspire. I'm on Facebook. I'm on Twitter. I'm on Instagram. And I'm about actually to release the third online course called Rekindling Desire.

That is really, once you've read me, what can you do? How do you bring this home? How do you bring this to your relationships? Committed once or not? And to yourself. And that's really where this, these online courses now are, it's like, it's not the podcast yet, which we will talk about,

but it is me speaking to you about how you take all of these ideas and make them personal and transform them into actions that will change your life. Hello, Esther Perel, thanks so much for coming on. I appreciate it. It's a pleasure. I have a brand new book called Make Money Easy. And if you are looking to create more financial freedom in your life, you want a in your life and you want to stop making money hard in your life, but you want to make it easier. You want to make it flow. You want to feel abundant. Then make sure to go to make moneyeasybook

dot com right now and get yourself a copy. I really think this is going to help you transform your relationship with money this moment moving forward. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well.

Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.