The School of Greatness - Why You’re Lacking Charisma & How To Create It w/Vanessa Van Edwards EP 1231

Episode Date: February 21, 2022

Today’s guest is Vanessa Van Edwards, who is the Lead Investigator at Science of People and is the bestselling author of Captivate: The Science of Succeeding with People. Vanessa works with entrepreneurs, growing businesses, and trillion-dollar companies. She is renowned for teaching science-backed people skills to audiences around the world where her mission is to help introverts leverage their strengths, show high achievers how to activate their secret skills and teach awkward people to feel more confident. She’s written a new book called Cues: Master the Secret Language of Charismatic Communication.In this episode we discuss:How to instantly create trust and reliability.What Vanessa learned from analyzing over 490 Shark Tank pitches.The difference between charisma and narcissism.The fascinating research about social cues and how to use them.And so much more! For more go to: www.lewishowes.com/1231Get Vanessa's book: Cues: Master the Secret Language of Charismatic Communication.Vanessa's Previous Episodes:www.lewishowes.com/105www.lewishowes.com/475 

This is episode number 1,231 with best-selling author Vanessa Van Edwards. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro-athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Welcome back, my friend.

I am pumped and excited about today's episode. Our guest today is Vanessa Van Edwards, who is the lead investigator at Science of People and is the bestselling author of Captivate, the Science of Succeeding with People. Vanessa works with entrepreneurs, growing businesses, and trillion dollar companies. She is renowned for teaching science-backed people skills to audiences around the world where her mission is to help introverts leverage their strengths, show high achievers how to activate their secret skills, and teach awkward people to feel more confident. She's written a new book called Cues, Master the Secret Language of Charismatic Communication.

And in this episode, we dive in deep on how to master this, all about how to instantly create trust and reliability. What Vanessa learned from analyzing over 490 Shark Tank pitches of what works and what doesn't work. The difference between charisma and narcissism. The fascinating research about social cues and how to use them and so much more. This is the type of conversation that I nerd out on. I love this stuff. I love studying people, understanding people, what makes people tick, all that stuff.

So if you love this as well, make sure to share this with someone that you think would be inspired by this. lewishouse.com slash 1231. Copy and paste that link. Share it out to your friends over text or over social media or post it anywhere and make sure to tag me and vanessa van edwards as well over on instagram stories if you're posting over there big thank you to our fan of the week this is from patty jolly who said i started listening to your podcast show at the beginning of January, and I have found myself listening to each podcast twice, writing all the information,

buying books, and feeling super motivated. I'm so grateful for this podcast, and it is changing my life. Thank you. So Patty, big thank you for being a new subscriber, being a fan, leaving a review over on Apple Podcast. You are the fan of the week, and we appreciate you. We're grateful that you want to listen to each episode twice. I know there's a lot of information sometimes.

I go back and check out stuff a lot because there's so much I'm consuming. But big thank you. And if this is your first time here or you have yet to subscribe or leave a review, then make sure to subscribe right now on Apple Podcast. Leave a review for your chance to be shouted out as a fan of the week as well. Okay, in just a moment, the one and only Vanessa Van Edwards. Well, welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatest. We've got Vanessa Van Edwards in the house. Good to see you. We are talking all things Master the Secret Language of charismatic

communication. I think the facial cues we give people really put off a lot of, if we can trust someone, if we can't trust someone, you know, if someone's interested, if they're enrolled, if they're unenrolled, all these different things. For 20 years, I had four missing teeth. When I was, I guess it was 16 and a half, I got eight teeth removed, four wisdom and then four more on the sides. For many years, 20 years of my life, I had these gaps, right? And so I'd always smirk kind of on the side to kind of hide it. What? And I don't know if that helped me or hurt me. And you're like, no, it didn't. So I would smile big, but then I would kind of like half smirk sometimes. I've seen your smirk. And after, my book cover too is kind of

like just smiling, but it's a big smile, but it's not a showing the teeth smile. It's true. Is it better to smile without teeth or with teeth in order to enroll people in you as a human being to get anything you want in your life? What research found is that a real smile, whether it shows teeth or not, the biggest difference is it has to reach up here. The eyes. The upper cheek muscles, actually. So those eye crinkles. I do that a lot, though.

I feel like I squint a lot. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you got a little smizing, right? So that's actually the only cue we're looking for. So it actually does not matter. So if you have a profile picture, a dating profile picture, a LinkedIn profile picture, I either want you neutral or with eye crinkles. The worst is sort of that in between. Now, I don't mind like a soft up mouth,

right? You and I both have this on our book covers, a soft up mouth, but it has to engage those upper cheek muscles. What Dr. Barbara Wild found is that when they showed pictures of people with the fake smile and a real smile. The real smile was contagious. So when people looked at the real smile, they themselves felt happier. When they looked at the fake smile, they felt no mood change. Interesting.

So the reason why that's important is I think that we think about like, oh, I want to show up. I want to be really my most confident self. But what we don't realize is that our cues are contagious. Yes. That if you show authentic happiness, you are more likely to infect happiness. Actually, there's one more face cue I want to talk about.

So this is the cue that sort of started me on this crazy journey and it got me. I'm a recovering awkward person, as you know. So this gave me a lot of relief. Introvert, awkward person, social anxiety, all the good things. So this story gave me so much relief. What they found was if you were in a room and someone gives

you a cue of social rejection what does that look like okay so social rejection eye roll a sigh looking away looking right looking away distancing behavior when we pull our head back and like uh when i angle my head back you know i've just disengaged from you crossing arms crossing arms uh sudden see sudden nonverbal rejection. Is this turning feet also? Turning, yes. Oh, we can talk about feet. Okay, we can talk about feet. Hands and feet. You know what's interesting? I look at the hands and feet all the time. I can't remember if I got this from you years ago. It's like looking at the hands and seeing are they in the pocket? Are they out of pocket? Yes. But go ahead. We'll get back to that. Okay, so social rejection cues, and you know this.

If you're in a business meeting and you suddenly feel like, am I disliked? He doesn't like this, she doesn't like this. When we see a cue of social rejection, our field of vision increases. We see wider. We literally see wider. Our pupils dilate so we see more.

The reason why that study was like a light bulb for me was our cues are affecting others' physiology. Our physiology can change in a room in an instant. If we walk into a meeting and we feel not liked, if we feel rejected, if we feel like we're being judged, our own physiology responds. So if we're in a room and we're not feeling confident or in control and someone sends us a cue of rejection, one, you want to know what those are because it makes your field of vision bigger so you can see who else is sending me a cue, what's my escape route. That's literally what your body's trying to do. Ups your adrenaline, ups your cortisol. And no one can think well. Adrenaline, cortisol.

That's why in a meeting it can go downhill so quickly. You're in a presentation, you prepare it all week. And then you're like, oh, he just rolled his eyes. Oh, she just turned away. Oh, I just saw a weird foot movement. And then you lose your spot, you blank out, and the rest of the presentation goes badly. The good news is, is what Matthew Lieberman found, this is from UCLA. Once you label a cue, so if you say that was an eye roll, that was a scoff of exasperation, that was a contempt smirk, the moment you label it, your amygdala calms down. They've proven that when people are in fMRI machines and they show them a fearful face,

so fearful face is when we widen the whites of our eyes and we raise our eyebrows up. If you're laying in an fMRI machine and you see fear, you will begin to feel afraid. Your amygdala begins to activate and your body goes, well, if he's afraid, I better be afraid. But the moment you say in the fMRI, that's just fear, your amygdala stops responding. Interesting. So I think I've had a really hard time finding confidence. It's been a long lifetime journey. The way that I've sort of backdoored into confidence is control. If I can control the cues that are being sent to me, if I can control the cues I'm sending to others, it's a secret backdoor into confidence.

How do you control someone else's cues? You label them and respond appropriately. So you can't control how they act towards you, but you can control how you react to it, how you interpret it, how you transition afterwards. Yes. Like you can first by labeling it, you just controlled your own physiology. So if someone sends you a contempt, an eye roll, you just took control. You took control back of, nope, I see it. I spot it.

I'm disengaging it. You know, in the vulnerability world, when you, you know, label the shame, when you speak about the shame and you bring it to the light, it becomes less scary. It doesn't stay stuck inside of you. So even just acknowledging it is a helpful tool to process shame or, I guess, fear of social rejection. It's the same, actually. So for vulnerability, yes, you're afraid. You acknowledge it. It makes it less scary.

It's the same thing in social settings. Dates, professional situations, negotiates, interviews. The moment you say, okay, I just heard an exasperated tone of voice or I just saw a lid flex. That's the one I want to talk about next. A what flex? I know. I know. A lid flex? A lid flex. Is that an eyelid? Yes, it is. Like a twitch or what? Okay. So here you asked, how do we control? Oh yeah, that's it. You just did it. Okay. so, you know Zoolander Yes, you know the blue steel, of course. Okay, that is actually a lid flex, right? So that's a hmm, right? It's like it's if you if you're listening around a hardener lower lids and then like your lips. That's what blue steel is

The funny thing about this cue it's ridiculous. I know you're like, where are you going to this? No, it makes sense to me because it's like prove me you're like someone's doubting you. Oh, you just got it Okay, so what's funny is in fear, our eyes widen. So if you widen your eyes as wide as possible so that you can see the whites, you just, I can take in way more of my environment. When we're afraid, we want to see as much as possible. When we are trying to see details universally across cultures, we have to lessen the light coming into our eyes.

So we squint. The focus. We focus. So if you were to try to see that dot over there on the wall, you harden your lower lids. And that is because scientifically proven, when we harden our lower lids, it reduces the amount of light and we can see more details. Gotcha. I can see the details on that camera better when I lower lid flex.

Yeah. This is why if you open People Magazine's Sexiest Man Alive, on almost every page, along with a flexed bicep, are flexed lids. And that is because women find a flexed lid, oh, so attractive. So attractive. So an open lid is not sexy. Is it sexy? A flexed lid is. Yes. Because why?

Women and men both want partners who are deeply scrutinizing, who are deeply looking at them. So if I'm sitting and talking to you and I go, oh, really? I just showed you, wow, that was super interesting. In fact, when we flex our lids, we're going from just listening to thinking deeply. We're literally trying to see something better. So if you're in a negotiation or on a date or with a friend and they go, really? And they harden their lower lids, you are like, ooh, ding, ding. I just hit something good.

And so the other way that we control cues is, OK, let's say that you're, and this actually happened to me. So this is a story I share in the book. I was in a meeting with a very high-powered exec team. And if the presentation went well, they were going to invite me back for more presentations. So the stakes were very high. And it was a small group. And I was in a particular part of my presentation talking about chemicals.

And I noticed an executive across the room fluxed his lower lids at me, kind of fluxed his lower lids. He's looking at the slide. And I was like, OK, what's happening? He just went from listening to scrutinizing. And so I paused a small group, and I said, all good? Any questions? And I literally looked right at him and I opened up my palms and I said, any questions?

So this is the universal signal for openness. It literally means I want to receive. I'll share anything you want. Yes. It's literally like, let me receive, let me be open to you. And he went, yeah, you know, I do have a question. And at the time I was teaching about oxytocin. Oxytocin, I know you talk about it a lot on the show, the chemical of connection

and bonding. He goes, I don't understand something. Isn't oxytocin what they give women to induce labor? And I'm like, you are right, sir. They do give oxytocin. And that's because it's so powerful that it can induce labor. Interesting. But in our position, it's for social bonding. It was such a good teaching moment because he immediately felt heard. And I know that if I hadn't addressed that concern right then and there, I would have lost him. He would have been like, what?

He would have been stuck on that one slide. And afterwards, he said to me, I really feel like you were teaching to us. Teaching to me. Literally teaching to him. And so I think the other way that we can control the cues is we spot it and then we say, how can I honor it? Like that's the gift that we can give people is I can be sitting with someone and say, I want to listen

to you so deeply. I want to listen to your words. I want to watch your facial expressions. I want to listen to your number, but I want to even listen to your voice tone. I mean, we haven't even talked about vocal power, which here is incredibly important. And not only do I want to listen to your number, but I want to even listen to your voice tone. I mean, we haven't even talked about vocal power, which here is incredibly important. And not only do I want to spot that, I want to respond in a way that you feel the most heard by me. So it's spotting and honoring. And by doing that, if you're in a presentation, whether you actually acknowledge the person or not,

are you just saying that it'll bring you back to a more centered place so you can continue on the presentation? Exactly. It makes you feel in control of the narrative. It makes you feel in control of... And even for introverts, right? Introverts, it's much harder for us to share a lot of verbal content. So for us, I want to give you more control over the nonverbal so that when you do speak,

it's more powerful. So if you're an introvert and you want to make sure you are reading the room really quickly so you know exactly when to say your point so it's most heard and most valued, that gives you confidence because you're not guessing. Yes. I don't like the guesswork. No, I don't either. I know. You see a lot of these videos online talking about how charismatic someone is based on the way they smile, their eyes, the tilt of the chin, all these different things.

Is it important to be charismatic? Let's talk about that first. Yes. Is it valuable and more important to be charismatic versus less charismatic? To the point. Yeah. Yeah. Credible. To the point or neutral energy. I mean, what's more valuable in society, in accomplishing goals and getting what you want. Very charismatic or neutral? Neutral. Okay. So this is the biggest mistake I think facing really, really smart people. I think really, really smart people, and this is most of my students, they're like off the chart, smart, creative, brilliant. They make the mistake of thinking, if I have enough book smarts, if I have enough technology smarts, I don't need the people smarts. Now, here's what

research from Princeton University found. I'm so excited for this. Because I already know what you're saying in a sense. Yeah. Okay. So this study completely changed my work and changed my life. It was done by Dr. Susan Fisk in 2002. And since then, they've been able to replicate it and build on it and build on it. So this is very solid research, which she found very highly charismatic people have to have the perfect blend of two traits. And this is where it's really, this is why highly charismatic people are so unique. And this is why we love them so much. To be highly charismatic, to be compelling, to be captivating, you must have a perfect blend of warmth and competence. And we talked about this the very, very first time we met, but since

then so much more has come out about it. Very, very smart people make the mistake of showing up as all competent. They try to blow you away with their numbers and their facts and their stats and their data, but they're seen as cold. They're seen as intimidating. On the other side, you have people who are highly warm. They have competence, but there's not a balance. They show up as highly likable, highly friendly, but they're interrupted. They're told that they're not being taken seriously. They're not credible. Right.

People forget having met them before. And so I think that most people problems, I'm even going to say all people problems. All people problems stem from an imbalance between your warmth and competence. All people problems stem from an imbalance between your warmth and competence. And so not only do I think that charisma is essential for being successful, I actually think it's the only way that people will be open to your competence. So you could be all the book smarts in the world. You could have the highest IQ and remember everything on any test,

or you could be an encyclopedia of wisdom and information. But what I'm hearing you say, if you don't have charisma, at least some of it, then people won't take you seriously or they won't care as much or they won't be as engaged. It's not just engaged. There's two questions that humans ask themselves about the person they're with. And this happens immediately in every interaction. By the way, video too. We forget that this is not just in person. This is happening the moment you pop on video. It's happening the moment someone opens your LinkedIn profile. I did a whole bunch of research on LinkedIn profiles specifically

because that's where a lot of our first impressions happen. Okay. When people see your LinkedIn profile, when people see you on video, on Zoom, the first question they ask themselves, and it is chronological, the first question they ask is, can I trust you? Basic instinct, are you going to be my ally or my enemy? Can I trust you? The very second question they ask is, can I rely on you? So when you're in a meeting, on a date, in a call, in a pitch, in a negotiation, on LinkedIn, the two signals that you want to cue people with as quickly as possible is, yes, you can trust me and yes, you can rely on me.

The problem is, is that most professionals right now are going mute. So I don't know if you've noticed this, but it feels like in the last five or 10 years, we've gone towards ambivalence. You know, we've gone towards, I'm not going to show anything. I'm going to be as professional and sterile as possible. And so we've taken out cues from all these assets. And then people have a really hard time trusting us. They have a really hard time listening to us. We wonder why people are slow to reply to our emails. It's because we're not cuing enough. We have to have hundreds of cues to answer those two questions.

Interesting. So how do we create more trust and reliability instantly? Yes. Okay. So let's talk about trust first because it is chronological. We have to trust someone to rely on them. That's why starting with your competence doesn't always work. So trust.

So the very first thing is a weird one. It's a really weird one that I'm going to talk about first. So you don't have to be competent to be trusted. To be charismatic, you have to be competent and trustworthy. Okay. Right? So we want that perfect balance. Right? You're smart enough and you're warm and likable. Okay. Right. So we want that perfect balance, right? You're trying to smart enough and you're warm and likable. Okay. So like, let's look at this cover. So really,

really successful book covers, just like really successful LinkedIn profile pictures, very quickly signal both trust and competence, right? They both signal both these same time. Okay. So, um, let's talk about the first one, which is space, space zones. Okay. So, sorry, I'll give it back to you. I took it away. Space zones. Space zone. We're going's talk about the first one, which is space, space zones. Okay. So, sorry, I'll give it back to you. I took it away. Space zones? Space zone. What is a space zone? We're going to talk about space.

We're going to talk about the distance between people. So the distance between my nose and the camera lens. You can't see it. But in this photo shoot, I made sure that the distance between my space and the camera lens was a certain space. How far? So I wanted to be in what's called the social zone. Okay. So this is not made up by me. This is actually a research is based. There's four zones for people, the intimate zone, the personal zone, the social zone, the public zone. Remember that Seinfeld episode you ever saw of

close talking? You ever had this where someone walks up like right into your face and like, yes, talks into your mouth. Okay. So that's called close talking and that is the first big rule intimate zone intimate zone you don't want to be there you don't want to be there unless you're about to get intimate or unless you like your friends or you know each other and you're like that's what you do do you talk six inches away from your that's too close yeah that's like your girlfriend yeah your partner okay okay so here's what happens this is into it goes six inches zero to eight inches apart intimate zone okay so here's what happens. This is intimate zone, six inches. Zero to 18 inches apart is intimate zone, okay?

So here's what happens. This is the biggest mistake I'm seeing right now is we're all on video call all the time. We're taking photos like this. Yes. Selfie like this. Yes. What does that do when you're projecting a video

or a photo of that close? It is literally saying, I want to get close really, really fast. And so if you have someone who's super high warmth, they're like, yes, vulnerability, intimacy, and you're going to attract those kinds of people. But if you have someone who's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, take a minute. They are, they are turned off. So what's happening is on video calls, you hop on FaceTime, you hop on video or on zoom and people are like right up in their camera, but their, their nose and their camera are,

are 10 inches apart. And so someone's like, whoa. It's too close. It's too close. So that's the first one is you want to respect the space zones. The sweet spot is a foot and a half to three or four feet away. That's that social zone. That's where we're making eye contact. If I wanted to reach out and high five you, I could. We're still respecting each other's space. So for those, one is when you're on video, in your photos, if you want to have that balance, you want to be 18 inches to about three or four feet away. Okay. Social zone is 18 to three feet. Yeah. And the personal zone, by the way, is still good, but that's a little bit farther away.

Right. So that's, you're just starting to get to know each other. When you see someone across the room or boardroom or a networking event, they're usually about four to seven feet away, which is the next zone, which is the personal zone. And then you have the public zone, which is obviously from far away. What we like in human behavior is we like someone to come towards us slowly. That's one of the reasons I think we're so burnt out on video. We have these back-to-back-to-back video calls and we wonder, why are we so tired? I'm not even in person.

The reason is because it's cuing us in ways that are not natural. In person, I walk into a room, right? Like, I walked into the office today, and you were waiting. I was like, hi, and then we hugged. That's the way humans like, right? It's like, this is from public. It's not like you open the door, and I'm right there standing in your face. That would have been a lot.

I was a few feet back. You were a few feet back. It was perfect, right? So like that's natural. But on video, it's like, whoop, we're here. And that's why we can get so fatigued is because the cues are unnatural, which actually leads me to the second kind of trust cue that's important. Yes. Is when we can't see someone's hands, our brain has a really hard time trusting someone.

So funny. I think ever since that interview, I'm always keeping my hands out. Yeah. I don't think I was keeping my hands in before, but I think I'm just more aware of it when I'm walking by someone who might be a stranger. I just have my hands out and relaxed and loose. But I'm not like tight or tense

and I'm not like hiding them or anything. It's just, yeah, just walking normal. Say, hey, how's it going? You know, I'll even do a little wave. Yeah, just to show. That's super charismatic. Say, hey, good to see you. That's it. That's it. So I love Shark Tank. Do you know that show?

Yeah. I love it. I love it. I know you had guests. I love it. Friday nights. Shark Tank. Shark Tank. So I wanted to know, watching Shark Tank, was there patterns between the least successful pitches- Interesting. And the most successful pitches? This is cool. Okay. So my team, I love my team. Thank you to my team.

Not just based on what people said, but how they said things. Everything, everything. So we analyzed 495 Shark Tank pitches. Yeah. What were the main things you saw? From those successful and those not? Okay, so thank you to Jose Pina for this research.

495 Shark Tank pitches, literally hundreds of hours of Shark Tank, coding every variable we could think of. Entrance, first impression, verbal, eye contact, smiling, interactivity, math deal. I mean, we were looking at everything. Holy cow. Okay. One of the biggest differences between the least successful pitches and the most successful pitches was what you just did. Hands. Right. So when you walk down that Shark Tank hallway, that is beautiful, right? That's exactly what we're talking about. Space, right? Public to personal

to social to intimate. So it's a nice warmup. The best pitchers, when they were all the way in the public zone, signaled, hey, sharks. No way. And they'd walk into the room, they'd take their place on the carpet and they'd go, good morning, sharks. Or, hey, Kevin. Mark, we'd love to have a deal with you. They would greet with some kind of hand gesture. The least successful pitchers walked in with, I think they thought they were being humble, but it actually reduced trust. They hid their hands either in fists,

behind their backs, in their pockets, or holding a prop. Sometimes accidentally they hid their hands and they didn't hand greet. That makes it really hard for someone to say, I can trust you. And that is a primitive part of our brain that when we can't see someone's hands,

like if I were to do this entire interview with my hands behind my back. What's she doing right there? What's she doing? What are her hands doing? And what's interesting is Susan Goldwimetto researches gesture. She spent her entire academic career researching gesture.

And she found that gestures carry more weight than words. So if a pitcher, a Shark Tank pitcher were to go on and say, today I have a really big idea. It's really big. And I hold my hands up like it's really big. It's really small. You're like, no way, it looks small, Vanessa. It looks so small.

It's not big at all. But if I were to say I have three big ideas and hold up five, you're actually more likely to bleed my fingers. So the reason why this is important is because gestures help lower cognitive load. Interesting. When I use gesture, I'm more fluent. I'm able to be more competent. I'm able to underline my words and able to say, this is a really important point. Can I give it to you? Hand gestures, body gestures, facial gestures, hair gestures.

Hand gestures. Hand gestures, body gestures, facial gestures, hair gestures. Hand gestures. Hand gestures specifically. Are key. They are like our body language highlighter. That's how I want you to think about them. What happens if we don't? I'm just kind of socially awkward. I like keeping my hands down the whole time when I'm communicating. What happens if we don't use our hand gestures at all in a conversation, in a pitch, whatever. Two things. One is it's harder for you to process. The person speaking, it's harder to process. It's going to be harder for you to get your confidence

because gestures are a way that we underline or highlight our words. And so if you are inhibiting your own gestures, you will have a hard time explaining things. They actually did a study where they had people explain two versions of a story. Notice two versions of the story. One, they could use their hands and one they couldn't. The one where they could use their hands, they had less pauses. They spoke more quickly.

They used bigger words. Wow. The one where they just couldn't. Just their hands were just underneath their legs. You know what's interesting? I was just reading some intros for the podcast right before you came in. I had another interview this morning and I did podcast intros for the podcast right before you came in. I had another interview this morning and I did podcast intros and ads and I use my hands in order to do it because I feel like it's

coming across as like I'm really engaging. Yes. Yes. And I remember when I was reading my first audio book, the school of greatness, I tried to read it like just kind of like with my hands down for a while. And I was like, I can't read. I've forgotten how to read my own words. Being like dyslexic growing up anyways, I'm a little slower when I read in general. But when I started to be like, okay, I just need to get in this with my body, my hands, I felt more confident. I felt like I could flow. I wasn't messing up as much. I wasn't having to stop and restart as much. It was powerful. Yes, okay, that's an incredible story about gesture because if you watch the best cartoon voiceover folks, they are using their- Animated, right?

Yes, they are using their whole bodies. They're in a room by themselves like recording on a mic, right? But they're like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, we just did the same thing, yes. That's what they're doing. That's not how I read the audio, but yeah. But Susan Goldwyn Meadows' research

is called hearing gesture. And that is because I am using my hands right now, not only for people watching, but also for my folks who are listening. Because I know that the more I use my gestures, the more charisma I have vocally. And I would love to talk about vocal charisma. Interesting. So that helps me. But it also helps you.

So anyone who's watching, you're getting so much information. They say 12.5 times more information from our gestures. Come on. Yes. Even when you can't see it? No, you have to be able to see it. We can hear charisma, but if someone can see our gestures, it adds more weight to what I'm saying. So when I say weight, I'm like, it's heavy.

Look how heavy that is, right? But if I were to be like, heavy, it's so heavy. And I kind of shoo it away. You be like, heavy. It's so heavy. And I kind of shoo it away. You're like, no, it's not heavy. You can feel it. You can feel the emphasis of the words. Yes.

So it's like a highlighter. Now, I have to have a caveat here because I've created a problem in the past. Yes. I love a gesture, but I don't like jazz hands, right? So gestures are great. Hey, good to see you. Hey. Hey, Lewis. How are you?

You're like, this is not credible or trustworthy you're like this is some weirdo over here i created a problem where i had people who were like entering their zoom meetings and they were like hello vanessa and i was like oh no don't do that oh no no so it's like a highlighter right you wouldn't want to highlight the whole page you just want to highlight the concepts that matter So let's go back to hands for a second because you said there were 400 videos, I think you guys researched on Shark Tank. 495 pitches. And one of the main factors was waving as you were walking in or as you were getting into-

Planting. Planting. Yes. Not all the way back, like waving. Could be. Some of them did. But also once you sat there and said, hey, sharks. Yes.

Hey, sharks. Good morning. Happy to be here. Even this, happy to be here, said, hey, sharks. Yes. Hey, sharks. Good morning. Happy to be here. Even this, happy to be here. Like an open palm gesture. Okay. What are a few other things that you noticed? Okay.

Yes. Okay. So we love gestures. And by the way, this is super easy on a video call, in person. Hey, nice to see you. Good morning. The biggest mistake we make, someone walks in and we go, hey, we give them a nod. Right?

Give them a hand. You like them enough to give them a hand, right? So that's really easy. It's like every YouTube video, I'm like, hey, give them a hand, right? So that's really easy. It's like every YouTube video, I'm like, hey, friends. That's literally how I start every video. Okay. That's the first thing.

So the second thing is where things get more interesting. So remember that these sharks were in pitch after pitch after pitch. They're tired. They're like. They are so tired. They are so tired. I've been on set there. I've seen like. Cool, cool.

The whole day. It's just like. It's a lot. It's a grind. It's a grind Okay So the most successful pitch is the next thing we found this was very very clear is that the more that the pitchers could spark Dopamine the more likely they were to get a deal now dopamine is a very complicated chemical. So just for our purposes food Eating something. No giving them like I'll, try my. Oh, yes, yes, yes. I was like, food, yes, yes.

And they're eating it like taste testing, like opening something. Try it, taste it, smell it, lick it, touch it, feel it, wear it, play it. Any of those senses. We love. So when we are doing something that's different, that's tactile. So yeah, touch, smell, taste, wear, play, do, try. That was going to wake the sharks up. Dopamine is a little bit, it's a very complicated chemical,

but I want to talk about it a little differently. It does feel good, right? So if they were to say to the sharks, sharks, today I have a gift for you. The brain goes, ooh, a gift, a gift, a gift, a gift. Oh, give me something. Gift, gift, gift, gift. Right, dopamine is like that feeling of I want it,

I want it, I want it. It's excitement, but it's also motivation. So what they found is that when people have a lot of dopamine, they are more motivated to do things. They are more motivated to figure out a deal. They are more motivated to ask questions. So when a pitcher went in and not only had some kind of an interactivity, some kind of a surprise for them, and sometimes it was a surprise. And they would literally say, and guess what, sharks? What?

What? Right? We want to know what that is because we're like dopamine, dopamine, dopamine. So it doesn't have to be like, you don't have to walk in every meeting and hand out and like throw out Snickers bars. Love a Snickers bar and that will work really well. That will work. It will work every time. But it's also verbal surprise. So it's also saying, today I have something really special to share. Right? Anticipation. Anticipation.

It doesn't even have to be something major. It can be throwing in those little elements of surprise that people can look forward to. And here's the biggest one. So this is research that blew my mind. It changed the way that I write emails. So if you write a lot of emails, this study is for you. So I'm going to break it down. It's kind of a complicated study. So here's what they did. So researchers had participants come into their lab and do like a little quiz, like a little math test. One group of participants read a set of directions that was very simple.

Please take the following quiz. Take your time, use a pencil, tell us when you're done. Very simple set of directions. The other participants got the same set of directions, but they sprinkled in a couple of achievement-oriented words. So achievement-oriented words are words like win, succeed, master, greatness. Okay? Those are achievement-oriented words.

There's a reason why this is so powerful. In the directions, they would say something like, please master all these questions, take as much time as you can to win the right answer, right? So they just sprinkled in a couple of these words, two or three of these words. They found that participants who had the achievement-oriented words performed better.

They actually got more answers correct. Interesting. Now, this is incredible. If you're a manager or a boss or you're working with people and you want them to perform at their best, just a couple of word swaps can help set them up for success. The second thing they found is that it also doubled, doubled participants' desire to keep working. If they could win, succeed, achieve. They were like, they worked on it longer, they worked on it harder, and they enjoyed it more.

And the last one is that reading achievement-oriented words can change our own dopamine and testosterone. That's fascinating. It's interesting because for years in high school and college, there was this store called Successions, I think it was called. I don't know if you remember this. It was like a motivational, inspirational store that had like, I don't know, a poster of like an ego soaring with a quote, right? Sounds like my office. Like something was just like, it was like Ted Lasso, you know, store. It was just like believe in yourself with like this motivation. Where is this store?

I want it. Okay. I think it's called Successions. I can't remember the name of it. I don't even know if it's around anymore. But my dad bought me a lot of stuff. And I had all this sports type of inspirational quotes and, you know, rocky posters and all these things of just people achieving.

And I would stare in this like these walls and I should be like, I want to be that. Let me go take the actions every morning to work a little bit harder to reach the goals. And I was just consumed in a success, you know, word. You were literally, yeah, you were literally priming yourself with those cues. Another study, I promise I won't do too many more. They put a picture of an athlete winning a race on top of telemarketers scripts. The people who had the picture of the athlete winning earned more money. Come on. Yes. Like just in front of them? Literally a printed picture on their script. Oh, wow. So why I share this is because we do not realize that we are cuing people incorrectly or we are missing opportunities in every single email that we send.

So if you send an email out to your team on Monday morning, hey everyone, today is going to be a busy day. We have a lot of challenges. Let's make sure we're not late. Research has found that when people read words like busy, challenge, or late, it literally primes them to be busier and later and more challenged. You are literally making it harder for them to help you. So if instead you think about, and this is a challenge I would love to, if you're brave enough to take it, open up your email sent folder and pull up five emails you've sent to important people, boss, partner, colleague,

whatever, client. I want you to print those emails and I want you to count the number of priming words you use. Good or bad. And even more, are they warm or are they competent? So this is where the next level happens. Ooh, give it to me. Highly charismatic people prime others with warmth and competence.

This is what I was gonna say is one of the spark dopamine. A simple compliment or acknowledgement sparks dopamine from my experience. Just by seeing someone and acknowledging something you appreciate about them or you like about them or great shoes or whatever it is, I'm going to assure you've got a great smile today. You've got good energy today. That sparks dopamine, right? Oh, 100%. Actually, this leads me to my next third point, my shark tank point. We also noticed that when pitchers specifically acknowledge things

from the sharks and specific sharks, they were more likely to get a deal from that shark. I really like this thing about you. You did something amazing. I've been so looking forward to working with you. Robert, I love all your deals with all those athletes. Mark, I've been a huge fan of yours for years. Or this was the winning phrase. In a pitch, if we heard this phrase, it was a high likelihood that someone was going to get a deal, which is, you remind me of myself. That could have been one of the sharks. That could have been one of the entrepreneurs.

But the biggest compliment we can give someone is, you remind me of me. You're my role model. I put you in. So this is what we're talking about is kind of the next level here is I think that, yes, I want you to be your most charismatic self. I want everyone hopefully who's listening to be inspired to be their warmest, most competent self. But what a bigger gift. What a better way to be great. To gift other people to be their warmest and most competent

self. So that when you're sending an email and you say, hey, I'm introing Sarah, or we have Sarah on the call, or here's that quick email intro I promised to Sarah, no priming words. What if instead you thought, what's the warmest and most competent thing about both Sarah and the person I'm introducing to? And you say, hey, I'd love you to meet Sarah. She's been leading our marketing team for 10 years. We are so lucky to have her. She's a gem. Lucky.

Gem. Leader. That is the perfect balance of warmth and competence. And you are gifting that to both Sarah, the person you're introducing to, and yourself. And so I think our words are gifts. And this doesn't have to be every email. But in your most important emails, that audit that you send, count how many warm words are you using.

So warm words are words that trigger connection, trust, words that make you feel the warm and fuzzies. They're very oxytocin words. Count the number of competent words. Efficient, productive, brainstorm, leverage, lead, streamline. Those are all great competence words. A funny note here is emojis. Are they good or bad?

Highly warm. Right. Not good or bad. You can have likability, connection. High warmth, right? So emojis and exclamation points count as one warm word. Wow. So if you have someone, and this happens a lot,

where people send a highly warm email to an important person. Hi, friend. Friend, warm word, exclamation point, two warm words. I loved talking to you yesterday, three warm words. It was so exciting to catch up. Exciting, catch up, five warm words. Heart emoji, heart, smiley face. Now we're at seven warm words and we're one sentence in, right?

They wonder why they're not taken seriously. They wonder why they didn't get a follow-up interview. They wonder why that person takes four days to reply. It's because it's too much warmth. You have to balance it out with the competence. So I want you to count and see what kind of signals are you sending to the people who matter to you? Do you want to? You know, you're bringing up something I used to do years ago when no one knew who I was. I was just getting started in 2007, 2008. I used LinkedIn as a tool to create connection with people that

were successful business leaders and people that had done things that I wanted to do in the future, right? And for a while, none of them would reply to me because I started off saying like, hey, I'm just getting started. I'm brand new. And I'm looking for some advice. Can you help me? Those types of- Yeah, warm, warm, warm, warm, warm.

Languages, right? Yeah. All those words you just said are all warm. Yeah. And I started switching it and getting a reply almost every time from anyone. Like anyone I'd reach out to, I was like, they're going to reply to this. And I started doing a few things. In the first sentence, I would just try to find, you know, spark dopamine essentially

is what I was doing. I was looking for a mutual connection we have. And I'd speak about the mutual connection. Mutual connection is highly competent. It's saying, you know this person. I know them too. I'm in the know. Trust and warmth. Warmth and competence. It's saying, you know this person. I know them too. I'm in the know. Trust and warmth.

Warmth and competence. This person likes me. If you like them, yeah, trust. Perfect balance, yeah. I didn't even know that. And I was just doing it, right? And it was working. I was like, okay, let me keep doing this.

Let me find someone that we know in common. And I would always try to have a conversation to get some intel on them. Can you tell me something about so-and-so? And I would speak about that information. And I would speak into them. I would also look for a couple other areas of interest that we have in common. And I would try to have three different things in common in the first sentence or two. Wow. You know, something that they did that I'd experienced before or a place they're from or

whatever. Some mutual interest. Warmth and competence. Maybe that's competence, maybe. Or it's both. Both. It's beautifully both. Yeah. So I would do that. And then I would just add, and I would say something like,

I'm really inspired by what you created. I'd love to learn your story of success. Ooh, ooh. Wait, wait, say it again. Say it again. I'm really inspired by what you've created. I'd love to learn your story of success. Oh man, that just gave me the chill.

That's essentially what I did almost every email. That sentence, can we just like talk about it? So that sentence is the perfect blend of warmth and competence, right? You have love, you have learn, you have success. And so that didn't take a lot of words. It's not like you were writing them a six paragraph email, but it's so much better than let me know if you have any questions. Right. Or can I pick your brain for coffee? Yeah, exactly. You know? Yeah.

So I think what we have to do is there are hidden opportunities waiting for you in your texts, in your emails, in your profiles, if you choose to take them. Yeah. And all it takes is a couple of word swaps. Like I'm not talking about 15. In that direction sheet,

they sprinkled in like two or three words. Win. Even reading the word win makes the other sprinkled in like two or three words. Win. Even reading the word win makes the other person think more like a winner. What a gift to give. That's cool. The quote that I heard in high school from Roosevelt is people don't care how much you know

until they know how much you care. Saved my life, literally. That's warmth and competence right there. Because I didn't feel competent my entire school life, right? In school, I was at the bottom of my class. I just graded poorly, which confirmed like I'm not smart enough or like I'll never be able to be as intelligent as my classmates or anyone in the world.

So why would anyone like me or trust me because I didn't feel competent? Then when I heard that quote, I go, I have a chance. Like I can build competence in another area of life. I can be emotionally intelligent and I can show people how much I care. And by doing that, that's been pretty much my whole life. Everyone who's listening, I hope what this shows you is that caring about someone, there's multiple ways to do that.

Yes, it's emotionally intelligent, but it's also honoring someone's cues or gifting them the right cues. When you make someone feel more like a winner, what a gift you just gave them. Huge gift. You're putting confidence into them. You're speaking joy, confidence into that person. Yes. You're literally gifting them the chemical dopamine so that they themselves have more motivation. And don't we all need more motivation? Absolutely. Yeah. Can I, since you shared a vulnerability, can I share a vulnerability and a compliment? Sure. Okay. Okay. Okay. So I've been so excited to tell you

this. So your book, School of Greatness, I love the cover. I just thought it was so inspiring. And when I was taking my cover shoot for Captivate, this is six years ago now, it was not going well. I was super awkward. My photographer, amazing Maggie Kirkland, was like, listen, this isn't working. You're really awkward. I need you to relax. I can't relax. The worst thing you can do to someone who's anxious is tell them to relax.

So we weren't getting the shot. We weren't getting the pictures. And she's like, OK, just think about your role models. Who's your role model? And I was like, Lewis Howes. So she pulls up your book. And she goes like, okay, just think about your role models. Who's your role model? And I was like, Lewis Howes. So she pulls up your book and she goes, okay. She said, look at Lewis. Channel him.

And so in the shoot, I channeled you and I did your pose of my hands over my stomach with your face. And crazily enough, that is the Captivate cover. That was a shot. I'm going to send you the full version. How many books did you sell? How many copies did you get? A lot, a That was a shot. I'm going to send you the full version. How many books did you sell? How many copies did you get? A lot, a lot, a lot.

I better send you some royalties. So anyway, I channeled you because even that cue, there was something about it. So I thank you for even the cues that you send out because that gifted me confidence we didn't even know about it. There you go. I appreciate it. I'm glad it worked. What's another thing in the Shark Tank?

We talked about sparking dopamine. What else? Okay, so we talked about greeting. We talked about dopamine. We talked about interactivity. We talked about complimenting in a way that allows someone to see themselves in you or pulling out a similarity, right? Like you, Lori, we really value.

Mr. Wonderful, we love Mr. Wonderful products. That really helped. I mean, it sounds like sucking up, but actually it really worked. The other thing that we noticed about the interactivity is what they would do is they would cross space zones. So they would have something to give the sharks, and they would go from the carpet to the chairs. That worked, usually. That worked because they were going into intimate zone very quickly.

So this is called a nonverbal bridge. It's kind of an advanced technique. Do you want to talk about it? Yes. Okay. So a nonverbal bridge is a way that we cross into someone's intimate space, but safely. So what happens is when we're with someone,

we want to connect with them. We want more oxytocin. We want to bond with them. But sometimes more oxytocin, we want to bond with them. But sometimes it can be hard to break that boundary. A nonverbal bridge is a way that we can create oxytocin with permission. So that could be handing someone something. That could be giving a high five. That could be touching their elbow. And that is exactly what successful pitchers did. They would have a reason or an excuse to, hey, Lorgan, let me guide you up here.

Hey, Kevin, let me zip on this suit for you. Hey, you want to try this amazing cinnamon roll? And when they did that, they created these small little bridges. So what I would think about is how can you create bridges to people where you're engaging them even physically? And that's harder on video, but in person, that was a thing that we found in the tank. How do you do it in a way that the person feels comfortable if you touch them on the elbow? Because someone may not feel comfortable. So you have to be really intuitive to,

is this person going to be receptive to me? Are they already interested enough where I can get closer? Yes, yes. Are they leaning in? Are they giving eye contact? Are they nodding? Oh, I forgot another one that was really important. So vocal power.

So we haven't really talked about vocal power. And this was a big one in the tank. So we hear confidence. We hear competence. And the biggest way that we do this is with inflection. So inflection is the biggest mistake that we make is the question inflection. So the question inflection is when we go up at the end of our sentences, right? It's also called uptalk. So if I were to- Don't do uptalk. Don't do uptalk. We're going to talk about why. So when we use the question reflection, it cues the other person's brain to know, ah, we're being asked a question. The problem is, is that when we accidentally use

the question reflection, it makes people question you, right? Are they really trustworthy? Right. So what happened is in this study where they looked at doctors, they found that the doctors who had, so I'll break down the study. So what they did is they asked doctors to record 10 second voice tone clips. And they said like their name, their specialty, where they worked. So it sounded like, hi, my name is Dr. Edwards. I work in oncology. I specialize in children's medicine, something like that. They took the clips and they warbled the words so you couldn't understand the actual words being said. So it sounded like, Right?

Then they asked people to rate these clips on warmth and competence. Right? Again, this research has been repeated over and over again. Imagine this for a second. You're asked to listen to a clip of gobbledygook. Yeah, to see if they're competent. Are they smart? Do you like them?

Yeah. And people do it. What they found is the doctors who had the lowest warmth and competence ratings had the highest rate of malpractice lawsuits. That implies that we don't just sue doctors based on their skills. We sue doctors based on our perception of their skills. And that happens in the first few seconds of hearing them. So your communication is everything. Everything. It's not just the words you're using. Are they warm? Are they competent? It's even

how you're saying the words. So the very first story I break down in the book, and this is in the intro. So if you want to just look at the sample chapter, you could. I analyzed Jamie Siminoff's pitch. Jamie Siminoff is the founder of Ring. That didn't get any money and then it sold for a billion dollars. Thank you. Yes. Here is a brilliant guy, right? Jamie Siminoff is brilliant. He had a successful product, right? Ring is a very successful product. Amazon acquired it for over a billion with a B dollars. Yet he goes into the pitch in a shark tank and he pitches and he doesn't get a deal. Why? That pitch plagued me because I was like, here is a smart guy with a great idea.

But his cues were the problem. I think that he lost his pitch. This is a really big statement and if you listen to it, you'll hear it. I think he lost the deal in the first 10 seconds of them hearing him. And the reason is he made the choice to close the doors to the tank. So in his pitch, he doesn't walk down the hallway. You don't see that long first impression. You don't get public to social to personal. He closed the doors. And what he did is he went, he knocked on the door of the shark tank. They're like, hello, who's there?

They're like, hello. And he goes, it's Jamie? So he asked his own name. And when you're a shark and you're trying to make a very quick first impression of someone without seeing them, and you hear the question inflection that's supposed to be used on a statement, you immediately begin to question, I don't know. And that is also because we know that liars are more likely to use the question reflection. If you've ever played Two Truths and a Lie, have you ever played that game?

Yeah. Okay. So Two Truths and a Lie, here's a little tip for everyone. If you ever play that game, people almost always ask the lie. So they'll be like, oh yeah,, two truths and a lie. I have a goldfish. I am a vegetarian. And I love dogs. They almost always go up on their lie. And that's because when we're lying, we don't know if you believe us. So subconsciously, we give it away. So Jamie starts his pitch.

And he doesn't have a first impression. He doesn't do any greeting in the hallway. He misses that whole walk up. The very first words out of his mouth, doesn't even matter what he says, is, ha-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, right? Up, up, up, up. And then Mark Cuban says, are you here to pitch? And he says, here to pitch? Again, using the question inflection. I think that what happened was, is it gave away his competence. And then the doors open, right? And he explains this idea of ring, it's a doorbell. The problem is his first impression was very low in competence.

And so he had a lot of trouble having the Sharks take him seriously. He was a very competent individual building his business, right? He was very smart, intelligent, knew the technology, how to build product, teams, all these things, get sales, whatever it was. But the warmth wasn't there as well, it seems like, right? Like the trustworthy, charisma, warmth, confidence. Yes, he undersignaled every step of the way. So he undersignaled warmth, he undersignaled competence,

and then was trying to dial up competence. And you hear in the rest of the pitch, he's- He's trying to build it back up. He's like, but we've done this, and look what we've got, this technology. And this money, and then this. And so he cannot get it back. He could not get it back.

And so I think I watched that pitch and I break it down in the book of what happened to this brilliant guy who had one bad day. And I think that if he, you know, he scripted those answers, he prepared for that pitch and he had really good verbal answers. There was even a couple of times where I think this thing happens for people who over-rehearse. So if you have an interview or a presentation, what do you do? You rehearse it, right? You practice the perfect answer.

That can get in your way, though, because if you practice the perfect answer, this is exactly what happened to Siminoff. And very highly intelligent people do this. He would hear a question from a shark, usually a challenging question because they were, really pushing him on the deal and they didn't believe him. No one believed him. They all thought, oh no, it's too crowded of a market. It will never work. They literally said that to him. Okay, I have ring on my front door. And they literally said no. He couldn't get them to believe him because what would happen was they would ask him a question. He would start to answer it organically and then he would switch into his rehearsed answer. Oh, yeah. So you would hear, oh, yeah, yeah, we do have market track.

Our market traction has been wonderful. In fact, in the last five years we've done X numbers and you would be like, who is this robot? Yeah, just say what's on your heart. Yeah, yeah, just say it organically. Right. And so I think you can be the smartest person in the world. You could have the best ideas.

But if you don't share them right, you're not helping people help you. And so that's my, it drives me crazy when smart people can't get their ideas heard. And that pitch crushed me. I felt so bad for him. And he made it. He's okay now. Right. He's doing really well.

And then he was like a guest shark or whatever. Yeah. Okay. And what's amazing is when you watch him walk into the tank as a shark, you can see the difference. You can feel the difference. The confidence, yeah. Oh, my. You know, he walks into the tank.

He walks down the hallway, right? He walks down the hallway. He's smiling. He gestures. Hey, everyone. Good to see you. He shakes hands. He does all the things he didn't do in that original pitch.

And you can see the difference. And he's the same person. Same person, same ideas, similar suits, yet he looks like a different person. Fascinating. It's not about what you say, it's how you sit, how you present yourself and your words. And your words?

And your, no, I'm just kidding. I'm curious about this. There's a big topic out there right now. I just did a recent interview with Dr. Romney, who is a therapist, psychologist, talking about narcissism a lot today. Can you talk to me the difference between charisma and narcissism? warm and caring and charismatic versus someone who uses the skills or the tools of charisma in their narcissistic approach towards manipulating, controlling, and getting what they want in life. So this is my biggest fear with this book. This is my single biggest fear. And it was an issue for me when I first started writing it, is I'm going to be honest,

you can use this book for manipulation. Yeah, of course. And that scares me. And when a smart person who's narcissistic is gonna study everything and then start using it. It scares me. So how can you tell the difference, the subtle cues, these are very subtle now. Very subtle, yeah.

So we're talking about big to subtle, right? There's like a range of them. So first is, it is my biggest fear with this book that people do not have the right intentions. And my hope is that we can actually use these powers for good and not evil. That is the number one thing is you can, if you want to. Here's the good news. There are certain cues that we cannot control. And if you have bad intentions, they will leak. So I call these danger zone cues. So in the book I talk about, there's four different types of cues. There's highly warm, nonverbal, verbal, and vocal. So these are things that make you highly warm, highly trustworthy,

highly likable. There's highly competent cues, verbal, nonverbal, and vocal. And then there's charismatic. The ones that are just knocking out of the park. Like they're just great. And the last one is danger zone cues. Danger zone cues are the cues that get us into trouble. They're the cues that liars use. They're the way that we leak guilt and shame. Actually, shame is not a bad thing. It's only when you have guilt that you've done something wrong. So in the danger zone,

it is very hard to inhibit those cues. So I teach them because I want people to be able to spot them. Okay, what are those cues? Okay, so there's a bunch and I'll let's talk about as many as we can. So this might be someone who's very successful, someone who's accomplished a lot, potentially

someone that seems very credible, someone that could be in a power position, owning a business or having influence online or something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Extremely successful. They could be successful. They could seem credible, trustworthy. Yes. But might be super narcissistic underneath.

Yes. So there's a couple danger zone cues that we can control, which a manipulative person could inhibit, right? So for example, one that I found that I talk about in the book is Lance Armstrong. So Lance Armstrong, for those who don't know, spoiler alert, Lance Armstrong was doping.

So someone was like, there was spoilers in the book. And I was like, you haven't heard of that news yet? I also talk about Britney Spears in the book because there's some really interesting cues on her, which I think why we're worried about her, why her fans worry. She shows a lot of danger zone cues. So Lance Armstrong, in one of his early interviews on Larry King Live, he's asked about doping. And he does what's called a lip purse. So a lip purse is, okay, when we push our lips into a flat line, we mash our lips together. That is a universal withholding gesture.

So when we're literally trying to hold something in or hold something back or we don't like what's being said or heard, we go. And so you'll notice that when someone has been asked something they don't like, when someone had to lie, a lot of the time. So we did a massive experiment in our lab where we asked people to send in videos of themselves lying. Actually, you play it in the book. It's called Lie to Me. So I have you lie to me, play this lie to me game to diagnose your own tells. It's very important to know your own tells because you should know what your danger zone cues are when you're leaking them. You should know those. It's good to know those in the back of your pocket. Do that with your partner, right? You want them to know what those are too. So one thing that we noticed is on lies, that was one of the biggest indicators. So in the Lie to Me game, we ask you to do two things. We ask you to tell us

an embarrassing story, your most embarrassing story, and then a fake embarrassing story. And we want to see if we can tell the difference. If we cut the clips, can we know which one is the fake one? Man, that'd be interesting. Yes. And it's amazing. You see the same danger zone cues over and over again right before someone's

about to lie and tell their fake embarrassing story. They go, okay. And they lip purse right before they're going to do it and that's because

we don't like lying. Our body knows it's going to get us into trouble. So we're like, stop it, stop it, stop it and we hold ourselves back. You ask a woman,

how much do you weigh? She'll go, mmm. Like literally close those lips because no woman wants to talk about how much she weighs. So it's a withholding gesture. And so that's the first thing is you want to look for some of the bigger cues,

withholding gestures. Lip purse is one. A sudden distancing behavior. So we also noticed that liars in our lab, they wanted to like get away from the lie, like as if it smelled. So like when they were telling their most embarrassing story, they'd be like leaning in, using gestures. Oh,

it was so embarrassing. Remember, embarrassing stories are negative. It's not like it's a positive memory. It's like people are like, and they do a shame touch. The universal shame touch is when people touch their fingers to the side of their forehead. Yes, this happened to my mom. Oh gosh, I'm so embarrassed. So they usually tell the truth and they do like this. Yes. Because they're actually embarrassed. Right. So these are all good, like congruent, right? We're seeing embarrassment and shame gesture. We're seeing negative nonverbal and people shaking their head. I can't believe that happens. Right. Like, oh, they're so upset that happened. We're seeing cringes. We're seeing fear. We're seeing sadness. Congruent, right?

Like that's all congruent emotion. On the bad stories, we often see people will lip purse and they try to get away from it. So they'll say a statement and then, you know, and then, and they're literally like as far away, I hope I'm not messing up my audio, they're as far away from the lie as they can possibly get. They're leaning back. They'll sometimes literally lean their head back in the chair. And that's because physically we want to distance ourselves from things we don't like. So we're looking for lip purses, sudden distancing. And there's a lot of cues that we can't control. Right. So blink rate is another one. Eye blocking behavior is liars have higher blink rates. They blink more.

Yeah. Actually, in Britney Spears, she had a really interesting interview that I actually break this down on my YouTube channel. So you don't even have to read the book if you want to see it, where I break down the cues in this early interview. This is right before the conservatorship started. So very, very full of cues because it's right before it happened. And she gets asked a very difficult question. And she, all of a sudden her blink rate goes from a normal rate to a high rate. So she starts to really quickly blink her eyes like this. And that is because when we're really nervous, we literally want to close out stimuli to not see what's happening

so we can process what's happening. So blink rate is something that a lot of manipulative people cannot control. In fact, when I share this, people go, oh, I know a very narcissistic manipulative person who has a very high blink rate. Interesting. Because they're literally like trying to block out the lie or the manipulation And spell sound really good

But they're like really like processing a lot and you and you're like why are they blinking so much? And it's because they're trying to process. Oh my goodness So just knowing those cues are not all bad on their own But it's just it's important to know what those cues look like so you can spot them and I do think I really think Manipulative people will get caught eventually. It is very hard to fake competence. It is very hard to fake warmth. It's hard to keep that up.

And so for the long game, yes, you can learn a couple of these cues and try to master your way around them. But for the long game, it's really hard. I mean, look at Theranos, right? So Elizabeth Holmes. So spoiler alert know theranos right so um elizabeth holmes so spoiler alert theranos did not go well i feel like i always have to say that so one of her interesting cues is um i don't know if you've ever seen her talk she has a really

she uses a really deep voice like fakely deep like down here and people used to say like is that real it's because she read in some Q book, it wasn't mine because my book wasn't out then, thank goodness. She read in some book that having a lower tone of voice makes you more competent. And that is true. Research has found that people who use the lower end of their natural voice tone are seen as competent. That's for both men and women. So you have a very deep voice and it serves you really well. When I'm talking right now, I'm trying to use the lowest end of my natural register. When I'm talking to my toddler, I'm much more up here.

You know, hey baby, how are you? But if I were to do my entire interview like this, it would drive you crazy. You wouldn't feel competent. No, and people would go, I can't. I'm not saying I can't or take her seriously. So she read that study, obviously. It went an octave lower. There you obviously. It went an octave lower. There you go.

And went an octave lower. So it wasn't her natural voice tone. It was like one step lower than her voice tone. So she was always talking like this. And when she did an interview, she would talk like this. And you would hear that this just doesn't sound natural. And part of your spidey sense would be like, why is she talking so low? It sounds really unnatural.

And it came out that when she was drunk, her employees noticed that she went back into her natural register. Wow. So there are cues that they will eventually- Don't drink alcohol. And that is the point of this story. Don't drink alcohol. Or you're going to get caught. Yeah. So you can't keep it up for that long, is that she was faking that cue, we think. I think you're also just, your body is out of integrity. Like the more you're keeping back something, you're telling a slight lie or whatever. I mean, I felt this from the past because I've been out of integrity in my life at different times from different stages of childhood to adulthood, right? From little white lies to bigger stuff hiding from my parents or whatever it is.

Oh, they feel bad. So you're like, ugh. Like something inside of you feels off, right? And then you've got to like they feel bad. So you're like, ugh. Like something inside of you feels off, right? And then you've got to like keep the lie up and you're like, ugh. Eventually you're going to explode or you're going to have a heart attack or something. Yeah.

It's going to leak. It's going to leak. Like you leak those cues and like those are the cues that we're looking for. Like I want you to be on the lookout for them because when something feels bad, like even like something feels bad, even just then when you were saying it felt bad,

your voice tone changed. Right. Just then. Yeah. Because when you feels bad, like even like something feels bad, even just then when you were saying it felt bad, your voice tone changed. Right. Just then. Yeah. Because when you think about, oh, I'm like, think about seeing a toxic person. And I know that people probably have toxic people in their lives. And this is why toxic people are so challenging. Because toxic people put us out of integrity.

Toxic people force us to use warm cues where we don't feel like it. Now we can do it. What do you mean? We got to be nice to them or something? Yeah. So like if you have a toxic person, and this is the thorn in, and I think our work is I want everyone to be their best selves. I want them to show up as their warmest, most confident self.

But what if you have a toxic person? How do you do that authentically? And this is what's so hard about toxic people. You have a colleague or coworker or a family member that you don't like, right? And you have to break out the fake warmth cues. Oh, hi. How are you? Right?

And so what do we do? We fake smile, right? So, oh, it's so good to see you. Right? It doesn't look authentic. It doesn't look like it, right? Or we say, oh, yeah, so how, oh, that sounds good. Congratulations.

Right? Now your L.A., oh, that sounds good. Congratulations. Right? Now your L.A. roots are coming back to you. Right. That's why toxic people challenge us is because they come into our lives. We know we're supposed to be warm. And so we try to force that warm sound and it comes out sort of forced and then it makes us feel bad. And then we're trying to overcommit for it. And so, you know what, the antidote here is not learning more fake warmth cues.

It's time to get rid of toxic people. I think that's like the side effect of the book is like- Don't keep them around. Don't keep those people around because it will leak. And so set boundaries around them. So what do you mean it will leak? Like your integrity will leak

because you're constantly trying to be nice but you're actually out of integrity because you don't want to be. Right. Is that right? Right. That's exactly right. So your body is like, I'm doing something that's not authentic to me because I feel

like I have to with this person. That's right. And the more frequently you do that, you feel out of integrity with yourself. Yep. Exactly. With yourself. With yourself. That was a question you were asking me.

And I'm like, yes, it was. Yeah, yeah. Yes, yes. That was perfect because you were asking a question I knew. Yes, is if you allow toxic people to come into your life, especially without boundaries. We have to have some of those people we deal with. But if you don't have boundaries around them, they come into your life and you have to fake niceness.

And that feels really bad. What happens if, let's just say there's a person you don't like. Yeah. Let's just say it. Maybe they're not toxic. There's someone you don't like. Totally. And you don't like being nice too because you feel like, why am I, I just don't, nothing

wrong with them, they're just not my person, yeah. Totally. Let's say you're in a work environment. Yeah. And you're at a company, you got 50, 100 employees that you're working with, you're on a team with, and you're just, okay, I'm here.

Yeah. Is it better to be inauthentic and lie and act nice around this person? Friendly, fake, how are you interested? Even though you've like been around them for six months or a year, how are you interested? Even though you've been around them for six months or a year and you realize you really don't like them. Or is it better to go right up to the person after six months and say, you know what? I just want to be completely honest and not fake with you because I feel like I've been fake. That I don't connect with you. I don't like you. I think you're out of integrity. I think you're inauthentic. And maybe I'm being

judgmental, but I'd rather be honest with you and fake nice to you. Okay, that's A and B. Can I give a C? Sure. Okay, so I don't believe in fake it till you make it. So I try not to give like fake it. I don't roll that way. Like I just think it's exhausting.

I think it's going to leak. The C option here is to not fake warmth, but is to double down on competence. So if you are working with someone that you don't like, the one thing that you do have to do is get stuff done with them. Right? You have to master your tasks. You have to be on it. You have to be responsive to emails. So that is something that you can be authentic about because to do your job, you have to be able to get along with them in a very professional setting.

So I would skip all the fake warmth stuff. Just go right into competence. Yeah. Right? Like stick with where you're authentic, which is like I would skip all the fake warmth stuff. Go right into competence. Yeah. Right? Like, stick with where you're authentic, which is like, I don't need to hear about your weekend. I don't need to go to happy hour with you. I don't need to fake sitting with you for coffee. But you know what?

We can get stuff done. You know what? We align on goals. So create boundaries around the, hey, let's go have coffee. Actually, no, I'm busy. I'm so busy today. But you know what? Let's do a brainstorm session tomorrow at the end of the day

so we can really kick off. Yeah, yeah. So get back to like the mission on the task on hand, the competence. And maybe you've just got to be like,

okay, this is someone where, you know, 20 seconds a day I've got to be around someone that's trying to be fake, latty-datty with everyone and I'll just wait

until then. I'm going to get stuff done. And then I'll move on to the next thing. That's it. Exactly. Because then at least you're focusing on where you can be authentic.

And also that's, even if that were to come up, you could honestly say that kind of conversation could be, listen, like, you know, I'm not really into like, you know, connecting at work. I'm more about getting it done. I want to get home to my kids and my family. I hope that's okay with you. You know, when we're together, if it's all right, I might skip lunch and just have us like, you know, work it out and be really efficient. I really appreciate how efficient you are because it allows me to get home to my kids faster. Right? Like that's authentic. So what can you appreciate about them that's competent? Yes. What can you highlight about them that's competent? And that's a weird way to work. What if you don't feel like they're

warm or competent? You're like, this person on a team is just that they can't get anything done. They're not smart and they have fake attitude around me all day. I mean, this person on a team is just, they can't get anything done, they're not smart, and they have fake attitude around me all day. I mean, this depends on how you feel, but I would say deal with it. Like, go to your boss. Right, and say, hey, can you put me on a different team? Yeah. You say, like, I don't know how I can work with this person. I don't want to be unauthentic, but I'm telling you that we're not getting stuff done, and they are causing issues on the team.

Like, I don't like to ignore that stuff. Like, you could hope it gets better, but ask for help. If you have someone on your team or someone in your life who is not warm nor competent and doesn't treat you with warmth or competence, either get them out of your life, set a boundary or get help. Don't live with it. Yeah. Don't live with it. Life is too short to feel fakely competent or fake warmth. Right. What's been the, I think I asked you this last time, what's been the charisma strategy? Yeah. You weren't sure about that. I don't know what the word is right, but what is the charisma or social cue that you've learned in the last six months that has brought some new attention to your life where you said, ah, I wasn't aware

of that fully, but now the research is showing where you said, ah, I wasn't aware of that fully, but now the research is showing that when someone does this, it improves this. There's a new cue that I snuck into the book in the very last draft, because I just learned it. And this is actually brought to me by one, it's called my male readers, and I'm so curious. Okay, do you agree with this, Lewis?

Okay, here's what they said. So in the book, I had a whole section on nodding. So nodding, affirmative nods, upside down, right? Are yes. I nod all the time. Yeah, yes, you're a nodder. It's really high warmth. We love it.

We love nodding. Oh, is it good? Yes, nodding is great. Because vertical nods, and by the way, this is different in certain cultures where they all nod, they nod. Yes, sideways. Sideways, that's different.

Okay, so just vertical nodding in Western cultures is agreement. It's yes. In fact, research has found that when you nod at me slowly, I speak three to four times longer. That's cool. That's why you're a good interviewer is because you'll nod and be like, keep going. Keep going.

Keep going. I'm just like a bobblehead. I'm just kind of like, yeah, very slow. I'll pause. I'm like, okay, cool. Okay. Well, actually you're right. Slow nodding is tell me more.

Fast nodding is finish up. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I got it. I got it. Right.ding is tell me more. Fast nodding is finish up. Yeah, okay, okay. Okay, I got it. I got it, right, right, right. Okay, so that's the difference there. If you want someone to wrap up in a meeting, give them a one, two, three, triple nod, like I got it. If you want them to keep going, an introvert, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.

Okay, so that's the difference. That's number one. So I've shared about this. I taught it. And then a couple of my male readers said to me, you know, Vanessa, we think that there is a secret nonverbal cue between guys. No, I don't know what this cue is. Here's what they said. If you know a guy and you're trying to acknowledge him guy to guy, you nod up. Good to see you. It's literally like an open gesture. You're open. If you don't know

a guy, but you're trying to acknowledge his presence, you, hey, good to see you. Oh, wow. That's so true. Is it true? That's so true. Yeah. It's like, oh, good to see you presence, you, hey, good to see you. Oh, wow. That's so true. Is it true? That's so true. Yeah. It's like, oh, good to see you. Yeah. Yeah. Acknowledged. Good to see you. Yes. Hey, what's up, buddy?

Okay. Yeah, it's so true. Okay. So this was, so I snuck it into the book last minute. Oh, wow. That's fascinating. I wonder, is that like biology? Is that social? Yes. Here's what I think. Okay. Here's my, here's my theory on this. As soon as I heard this, I was like, and I started looking, I started watching men. I asked my husband, here's my theory on this. As soon as I heard this, I was like, and I started looking. I started watching men. I asked my husband. I asked my guy friends.

And this is why I think it happens. When we know someone, we expose our jugular. So this is a very vulnerable part of our body. And we're saying, I know you. I trust you. Look, I'm opening. I'm acknowledging you. And I feel trustworthy.

When you don't know someone but you want to show respect, you nod down to protect your jugular. I don't know you, but I see you. I got you. I got you. I'm here for you, kind of. You can't see my jugular i don't know you but i see you i got you i got you i'm here for you kind of you can't see my jugular but i'm here for you i'm gonna protect myself but i see you exactly i think that's where it comes from is it's like do i know you or do i not know you so in that sense this is a high warmth cue hey buddy what's up right it's high warmth you're showing your jugular this is a high confidence cue. Hey, buddy, what's up? It's high warmth. You're showing your jugular. This is a high confidence cue.

Hello. Good to see you. I look ridiculous. I don't do that. I'm like, hi. So I think that that was so surprising to me because there's so much more, I think, to be done. I list 96 cues in the book. That's just the start.

I think we're discovering more and more. And that's where the excitement comes in. So that was the new one. That's so cool. And what are the three most powerful cues, body language cues of leaders? Okay. So this is the competence area of the spectrum, right? So when we talk about charisma, we talk about warmth, competence, charisma, and danger.

Okay. So three body languages of leaders. The example that I give that I really like to teach from is the Nixon-Kennedy presidential debate. Okay. Have you ever heard of this historical debate? We were not around for this debate, so I'd be shocked if you'd seen it. So we want to be in the high charisma. There you go.

Yes. We want to be doing those cues all the time. That's right. We want to be in the star. So right now, you're talking about competence. You just asked me about leaders. So leaders typically are high competence, and they can go into warmth when they want to. High competence and charisma. Right. Or they're high competence and high warmth.

Yes, exactly. Right. So highly competent cues, if you know that you're warm and you need to dial up competence to hit the sweet spot, these are some cues that will help you. And my favorite is from the Nixon-Kennedy president's debate. So have you heard about this debate before? It's kind of- Remind me. Okay. You're like, actually, yes, I watched it on the History Channel last night. I mean, maybe you mentioned this before, but isn't, one of them was angry or something. I can't remember what happened, but- So this is why I like this story is because it created a puzzle. And I like puzzles. So here's what happened. During this part in US history, Nixon and Kennedy were running for president,

and about half the population watched the presidential debate on television and about half the population listened to the debate on the radio. Everyone who watched the debate was sure that Kennedy won and everyone who listened to the debate was sure that Nixon won. Wow.

And it was the first time where there was discrepancy between the winners, the perceived winners. Because one sounded competent, the other one looked warm. One sounded like a leader and one looked like a leader. Ooh, you match them together, that's the sweet spot. That's the star.

Okay. That's the star, exactly. So one sounded like a leader. So Nixon sounded like a leader. He had really good vocal power, but he looked like a loser. And I hate to use that word, but he himself said in his memoirs,

he believes he lost that entire presidential election based on the first few seconds of that debate. First few seconds. He himself said that. What happened? It was kind of like the Shark Tank guy trying to buy back confidence and warmth at the same time. He gave away his confidence in the first few seconds of the debate. So anyone who saw it went, oh, no, no, no, no. This guy is not a winner. And this was before they even spoke. So in the first 30 seconds

of the debate, neither of them speak. You see them on camera. And if you were watching, you saw, wow, Nixon looks so weak. And here's why. What most people don't know is that Nixon had just injured his knee on the campaign trail. And he'd been in the hospital for the week. So he came in with a bandaged knee and a fever. Kennedy had been tanning. Yeah, he was in a nice suit and everything. He was ready to go.

And also, a kind of funny thing is the debate was in black and white. And Nixon's suit was too brown. It blended into the background. So I talk about color psychology at the very end of the book, colors. And so that was an issue, one that he't pop as much on, the black and white. Okay, so he shows up and he's sitting in what's called the runner's stance. The runner's stance is when someone, so you know runners before they win a race, they like go into the

crunch position, one leg back. We know this as a readiness position. Universally across cultures, if someone's about to run away from us, they will get into this position, right? Like they're literally about to run away. It's why sprinters start a race like that. Well, Nixon spent the first 30 seconds of the debate

in that position. Because of his knee. Because of his knee. He was in pain. He was trying to like just- He was nursing it. Yeah. But it made it look like he was about to run out on us.

That's from just a quick nonverbal perspective. The first impression was, where's he going? Even though people didn't consciously realize it, he looked not planted, and we don't like leaders who aren't going to stay with us. Whereas Kennedy, on the other hand, he had a really nice, relaxed cross, and he used what's called humility hands. Research calls it humility hands. Humility hands are when your hands are on your leg and they're resting. Humility, humble. So he looked relaxed, calm, here to stay, you know, not tense at all. I'm not in a rush. I'm here.

I'm here. I'm your leader, right? So he looked, quote, unquote, presidential. So first, the runner's stance. Second is, and this is in the first 10 seconds of the debate. They were sitting. They were sitting next to each other. They weren't on a podium.

No. So here's your first snapshot of the debate. And you see Kennedy, humility hands, relaxed, sitting tall. And then you see Nixon, who's like, ready to leave. And we see these cues and people already made their decision. But people who were listening didn't see any of that. Right. They heard the voice.

They heard the voice. And so Nixon lost the debate to Kennedy. He lost the election to Kennedy. And he said in his memoirs, that's why, is because of the cues I sent. And so for leaders, here's what we want to think about. One is relaxed, here to stay. So the more you can settle into your place, the distance, this is such a weird measurement. I want to see the biggest distance between your earlobe and your shoulder.

So not like this. Yes. Yes. Because why? between your earlobe and your shoulder. So not like this. Yes, yes. Because why? When we are confident, when we are winners, we take up as much space as possible, right? We broaden our shoulders. We tilt our head towards the sky.

Winners feel pride. So we look at the distance between someone's ear and shoulder. We're like, oh, he looks, she looks confident. When someone hops on a video call, this is the mistake I see. Hi, everyone. Shoulders pinched up towards ears. And we wonder why people aren't taking us seriously. We wonder why people are interrupting us is because this distance, if I'm like this, hey, everyone, happy Monday. Well, your tonality as well, but yeah. Right? Like if I start a video call like

this. So today we're going to talk about some updates and I'm going to go over some different slides with you and we're going to wait a few minutes while people log on. So if I'm on your team, is everyone just like, are you just calling each other out on your social cues? Everyone's a winner on my team. They're amazing. Right? Like we like, we like play music. Like, yeah. Right. Of course you can music. Like, yeah, right? Of course, you can lean in sometimes. You can, but in that first impression, especially, right?

It's like, hey, good morning, everyone. Good to see you. So I want you to think about profile pictures, videos. I love chairs with armrests. Why? It helps our shoulders stay grounded. So that's the biggest one is taking up space. The second thing that happens, that also gives you more vocal power. So if I were to do this entire interview with my shoulders up, it would look bizarre, right? I

would look scared. You'll be more closed up. Yeah, it would be. And so if I tense my vocal cords right now, I'll begin to go into vocal fry. So vocal fry, have you heard this before? It's when your voice sounds like sizzling bacon. I just don't know. I'm not sure. But like I was just thinking about it. And if it's, oh my goodness, it's horrible. And the reason why we'll accidentally go into fry is because we're literally clenching our vocal cords and they cannot get enough breath.

Vocal fry, not to be gross, but vocal fry happens when our vocal cords rattle together. And that's what we're hearing is the rattling. That's why we don't like it. And so when you have space, you prevent vocal fry. If you hear yourself in vocal fry, here's the quickest fix you have. Speak louder. So the best way to get rid of vocal fry is to just up your volume. It will push more air through your vocal cords and it makes them hum.

If other people on your team are using vocal fry just ask them to speak up. Speak a little louder. Yeah that will usually get them out of vocal fry. Okay. Little secret don't don't blame it on me but that's a really easy way to if you're interviewing someone and they're in vocal fry and you know it's going to drive your listeners crazy just be like you know the audio they just can't hear you. Could you speak a little bit louder? It will work. Now, what's the difference between the humble hands on a knees or on a table, I guess, right here? Does this work on a table as well? Yes, yes.

Versus hand over top of the other hand, which is relaxed, but also is closed body. Yes. Versus two hands side by side, relaxed, not like intense, but relaxed side by side. What's the difference between these two? Perfect question. So your book cover.

Your book cover is hand over hand. Yeah. And they're relaxed. Yeah. And it's a closed posture, but it works. Right? And so it's okay to me. As long as your hands are relaxed, I don't care if they're closed or open.

Now, I do care about this. So when we protect our trunk. Arms crossed. or open. Now, I do care about this. So when we protect our trunk, arms crossed. Yes, I do care about this. And why is because when we are crossing like this, I know it's comfortable for some people. What research finds is two things. One is we look more closed off. So we never want to look closed off. But second, they found that when people are trying to be creative or strategic, they literally cannot generate as much ideas when they are like this. What's the alternative? Humility hands, open posture, holding a drink, typing at a computer, taking notes.

Anything else but this. Anything else but that, anything else. So I love props. So the way that I don't cross my arms, because I actually like to cross my arms. Yeah, it's kind of relaxing, you know, it's kind of like, ah. I know.

But actually, if you're thinking or processing, cross away. If you need to take a minute, take a step back, it's a great way to break. So I hold a clicker for presentations and a pen for slides because every time I think about crossing my arms, I remember, oh, I have the clicker. When we think about getting rid of, I call them bad nonverbal habits. So tics, so ums, crossing arms, those are all bad nonverbal habits, right? So tics, so ums, crossing arms. Those are all bad nonverbal habits. Slouching. Slouching, yeah.

It's really hard to just say, don't do that. So what I'd rather you do is replace it. Displacement tactics. Okay, so you don't need to cross your arms. Can you hold a coffee mug? Can you hold a pen? Can you hold a clicker? Can you always have a moleskin notebook?

I have a student of mine who always has a moleskin. He doesn't need it. He just holds it. He has it. He opens it up and he'll write the date and the meeting name and what he had for breakfast. But that's it. He literally used it because if he doesn't, he puts his hands in his pocket or crosses his arms. And so he has it in front of him because it helps him feel very grounded and centered.

It's a replacement tool. It's a replacement tool. So I would think about what are some tools you can use that will help you do that. What about like, what about the, uh, the finger crossing? So like, look at the difference. It's like this, when I'm white knuckling, you can see that I am tense. I'm trying to keep it together, Vanessa, right? Like this is, but this, so this is called a steeple. The fingertip. Oh, I love a steeple. Yeah. So a steeple is when the tips of your fingers touch and like a church steeple. It's like Mr. Wonderful just does this the whole time. Exactly.

You will notice that when Mr. Wonderful is contemplating a deal, he'll go like this. Why? Doesn't it make you feel like you're just in control? It's like, hmm. And so this is a really good power gesture. It's one of our competence cues. That's why I have it on the cover of the book,

is to show high competence, because it's about getting in control. The steeple, we love it, because it shows our palms, which shows we're not concealing anything. Do you want the steeple pointed at someone? Either one. Any of those. Any and all. Whatever feels natural. If you have it up here like the diamond. I wouldn't do this. I wouldn't be like, hello everyone. Good morning. So here or pointed out them is fine? Totally fine. You'll notice that like Mr. Wonderful does it perfectly. He'll like go like this. He'll tap it. The only thing I would be careful of is drumming fingers. That looks like Mr. Burns evil, right? I don't love that one. Okay. So like, don't look like you're scheming. That can look a little bit crazy. But if you're like, oh yes, I'm thinking about it. Now I want to give a caveat.

Please only use cues that you've tried on a few times and feel natural. There are some cues in the book where there's 96 cues in the book that I still don't like. I've tried them every which way and I do not like them. What's the most powerful cue that you don't like but you know is extremely effective in charisma or connection or trust or leadership? Probably volume. So research shows that people who speak in louder volumes literally are taken more seriously, but that makes me a little bit uncomfortable. And so even on stage when I'm like really excited, I still don't want to be like, let me tell you about something very, oh God, that's horrible. I don't like it. But volume dynamism is a cue I teach in the book

that I have trouble with. But the research shows that people are more trustworthy or more competent. Competent. It is a competent cue. Because if you're soft, it's like you don't believe in your words. It's actually volume dynamism. So it's being able to use your volume to match your intention. So for example, let's- So tonality and fluctuation at the right moment. Yes, yes, yes. So like, for example, I feel a little ridiculous when I do this. This is why this is the most cue that I struggle with, which is like, let me tell you about something super important. Yeah. I just feel ridiculous.

But some people do it so well. But it works. Oh, it works so well. And some of the people are so charismatic when you can get the tonality, the inflectuation, is that what it is, of the tonality. They taught this to us in Toastmasters as one of the 10 initial lessons of being a competent communicator. One of the exercises is to give a five-minute speech using tonality. You have to find the cues of when you pause and slow it, and then you bring it over.

It's like, how do you make it authentic? Some people do it naturally. They're so good at it. So gifted. That is not me. That's why I don't have a podcast. That's why I have a YouTube channel. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? Like on YouTube, I can use my gestures and my facial expressions. It's why I don't have a podcast. I feel I am not dynamic enough in my vocal power.

And so that's one cue that I work on, but I have a hard time being in control of my volume. Yeah. Okay, so we have these hand gestures. This is fine on the table also? Yep, all good, relaxed and good. What about hands open on the table? Okay, so let's talk about palm up versus palm down. Okay, so when I was using for the book, I was looking for my favorite are cues hiding

in plain sight. Those are my favorite. Oh, I just used it. Those are my favorite. Those are my favorite. Yeah, you did. That was very organic. I did.

Very natural. I'm really happy right now. It's, you did. That was very organic. I did. Very natural. I'm really happy right now. It's like you're speaking to a girlfriend just naturally flowing through. Let me tell you, Lewis. I'm dancing right here. Yeah. Okay. So that was great. That was very exciting.

I felt very excited. Okay. So I love cues hiding in plain sight. And so I had a lot of political examples, a lot of celebrity examples, and Britney and Lance Armstrong. But I wanted historical examples. And so I was looking at famous paintings, and I noticed The Last Supper, painted by Leonardo da Vinci, has hidden cues in it. You'll notice that the way that it's positioned, Christ is positioned in the middle. So

da Vinci positioned in the middle. Okay. Most people do not realize that in that picture, Christ is doing this. He has one palm up and one palm down. It's hard to see it in that. Oh yeah. His left palm is up and the right palm is down on the table, right? Now this is very interesting because like most people don't look at this right away, but why? Why is he doing that? Why would he put his hand like that? Why would he put his hand like that? And what do those mean? So let's look at the research. Palms open are universal gestures of openness. When we want something, what do we do? We hold open our hand. Give it to me.

Yeah. When we're offering something, what do we do? We hold open our hand. When we are open to suggestion, we show our palm and we have it visible. A palm down gesture is a high competence cue. It shows dominance. It shows directiveness. You might think of, I won't mention them by name, some famous dictators of the past who did palm down gestures. Why? That is a very dominant gesture. When people are giving directives, they often say, be quiet, sit down. Right? I don't want to hear from you right now. It's a very direct- Dismissive too, in a sense, right? It's kind of like- Especially if you shake it at someone. So why would we have these two cues? They perfectly balance each other out. Christ is depicted as the highest, most charismatic person in the painting. So

what does he do? He literally balances warmth and competence. He's showing the universal gesture of openness and giving, while at the same time a universal gesture of direct authority. When was this painting made? 1498. Wow. Yeah. So da Vinci, I think, hid cues that signaled the viewer, wow, he's charismatic. The takeaway from this, by the way, is if you're giving a directive and you don't want it to be questioned, you're better off giving palms down. You're better off saying, listen, team, we've got to get this done. We've got to be efficient. We

got to be streamlined. I need you to do it for me just go yeah just go just do it if you want feedback like when i take q a i'm like what can i do what questions can i answer right i'm giving open that's a very very subtle but very powerful cue okay so that's how christ is depicted balancing the other thing that he does is if you measure the amount of space that christ takes up in the painting you'll notice he takes up the most space. He literally has the most distance between his shoulder and his earlobes. I love this. Yeah, he's like. Yes, because he's tilting.

So tilting is a warmth gesture. And so he's the only pictured person who is head tilt with also expansive posture. So there's all these hidden cues that I think paint this picture behind what's happening. Now, if you look at Judas, if you didn't know anything about this history, Judas would be the character painted with the most intrigue. If you notice, he's also holding a clenched fist, right? He's the only character in the picture who has a clenched fist and is distancing. He's literally turning his body away from us. And we know, we already talked about the distancing is a danger zone cue. So here is the person who is later about to betray Christ. And how does Da Vinci signal that? He hides cues. He shows a clenched fist, which shows withholding and anger.

And then he shows that he's about to lie, that he literally turns his body away. The reason I show this is because I think that we don't realize there's these cues being sent to us all the time. You know, I do a lot of breakdowns on my YouTube channel of politicians. And we don't realize even when we look at political campaigns, in one picture, there's thousands of cues being sent to us. And we should know what's being sent to us. The thumb pinch. Oh, the thumb pinch. This is Obama, right? Okay.

He did this all the time, didn't he? So here's what's funny is Obama used to be a pointer. We don't like being pointed at. So there's something about it as humans. It's like, let me tell you what to do. It's kind of a better than. So I think he was coached because all of a sudden he never pointed again and he only used the thumb pinch. The thumb pinch is a very clever gesture because in Western cultures, this means good job, thumbs up, good job, or like me. Like literally, social media, like, right? This is what we see.

Like, like, like, like, give me a like. And so the thumb pinch is a very subtle thumbs up gesture. So every time he does it, it makes you think, oh, first of all, it's not, he never clenches. It's relaxed. It's relaxed. It's kind of like an open thumb. It's an open thumb because he's saying, A-okay, A-okay, like, like, like. And he's also saying,

this is a point I want you to remember. It literally looks like a bullet point. Right, right. I'm going to give you a point that you should remember. Yes. And Obama, I'm going to do an Obama impression. It's going to embarrass us both. Okay?

It's okay. I'm not very good at impressions. It's okay. But Obama does this thing that I just, I find so interesting. So Obama uses a downward inflection. So we talked about the question inflection, right? So when we go up at the end of our sentences, Obama goes down at the end of his sentences. He literally slings down his words and downward inflection we hear

is very authoritative. So I'm going to do an Obama impression. Okay. So this is him slinging down his words. He goes, Sasha, Malia, it's very important that what we do today is going to be remembered forever. And if we don't do those things, we are going to be in deep trouble. That's a terrible Obama impression, but you can hear what I'm saying, right? Of course. He slings his words down and that is very authoritative. So even that vocal cue makes us think, well, he knows what he's talking about. Right. It's more authoritative, more confident.

It's more authoritative. Versus if he were to say, Sasha, Malia, I have something really important to tell you. It's really important we do this for our future. Could you imagine if he gave speeches like that? And so even that vocal inflection worked for him because he also creates a lot of space in his mouth he has a lot of space in the middle part of his mouth so he talks very deeply in his mouth and that helps keep his resonance really low because he's has a space in the back of his mouth and that creates a lot of resonance. That's a good impression. You're not embarrassed for me? Good.

It's because he creates this low resonance point and we like it. So that downward inflection is really important. So many great cues in here. The power of the pause. Pause for power. So a mistake that I used to make is I would pause the end of my sentence before continuing on to my next sentence and I would get interrupted. Right?

So a mistake that people will make is they'll give a thought, pause, and then keep speaking. Now, pauses are quite powerful. Powerful people typically use pauses in their speech. But if you pause in between your sentences, people will interrupt you because they think you're done. You're actually better off using what I call a power pause. A power pause is when you pause right before you give something away. So not the end of a sentence. Right. In the middle of a sentence before you're going to share something.

Really important. So let me tell you something really important. That's it. Exactly. So here's the mistake that people make is they'll say, something really important happened in my childhood that I want to tell you about. Pause. It was when I was.

People are like, should I talk to you should ask you another question what should I say it actually creates conversational confusion which is the last thing you want versus I want to share a really important story from my childhood that creates a lot more intrigue because like a story oh from your childhood and I have no desire to interrupt so that's in a very advanced tip that's that's towards the end of the book it's a very advanced tip. That's towards the end of the book. It's a very advanced tip because if you have trouble with people interrupting you, I would practice switching your pauses and think about that. What's the drama you can get?

Drama. Create the drama. Volume, pauses. Yeah. And by the way, Obama did that very well. He would deliver a point, right? He would go into his residence and he would say, what this country needs is better systems, right? I'm saying nothing, but you're like, what's better? What is it? What is the thing that we need? It's not what you say, it's how you say it. That's it.

Although how you say it is important too. You need the competence too. That's the last chapter. So the last chapter I have to end on is verbal. Because yes, we spend a lot of the book talking about nonverbal and vocal, but your words matter as we talked about with achievement-oriented words. But man, if you can deliver achievement-oriented words with power pausing, with a steeple, look out.

Look out, world. You're coming. That's big. I am a big believer that the most important thing we can do is learn how to heal the different traumas or triggers from our past that get us in a reactive state when the world is happening. And we become uptight, reactive. We say things we don't want to say. We regret the things we do. We act out, whatever it might be. the past memories pain frustrations whatever I call it I think it's one of the most powerful things the second most

powerful thing we can do is learn how to master the art of communication and learn how to be comfortable in our own skin and our own voice you know how to win friends and influence people was a book that was extremely powerful for so many people to learn how to socially connect and again in life we are either enrolling other people in us, in our vision, or we're unenrolling them in us, in our vision, based on how we communicate, how we connect with people, whether we're trustworthy or untrustworthy. This book and your research and studies and content has been extremely powerful for so many people, including myself. I learned a lot. And I

feel like this is something I'm always studying because I feel like you can never learn enough of understanding the science of people. And so I, one, want people to learn how to continue to heal. It's a journey. But two, I want them to learn how to understand people. Again, we go back to the quote that changed my early adult life, which was people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. If you can learn how to communicate that to people, it'll take you much farther. You know, you can get by with less skills and less smarts if you understand how to be deeply empathetic

and have connection skills with other people. It'll take you a long way. Eventually, you gotta have some competence in there and be skilled at something. And of course, everyone who's watching does, right? We know that. You got to have skills. And I think it's always important to invest in developing new skills as well to make you more competent. But this book, your work is extremely valuable and important. Cues, Master the Secret Language of Charismatic Communication, Small Signals, incredible impact. Vanessa Van Edwards.

I want everyone to get this book. I want you to buy a few copies for your friends, for the introvert friends in your life, for the socially awkward friends, for the anxious friends. Charisma is a superpower. It's a superpower. It is a superpower when used correctly. And here's the thing. If you use it incorrectly, you'll be humbled at some point in your life. That's right. Eventually bad things will happen and they'll keep happening over and over. And it will drain you.

Drain you. So you're going to be humbled by the world if you don't use humility with your charisma. But I'm very excited about the book. I can't wait to dive in more and go back to this interview even more. I want people to get the book. They can follow you on the website,

scienceofpeople.com, which has got an amazing newsletter that I subscribe to and get a lot of wisdom from. Thank you. You're always sharing new research and all this stuff in there. Scienceofpeople.com, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, V Van Edwards. That's me. Everywhere on social media. Your YouTube as well. It's extremely fun to watch. You just break down all these things visually. Yes. So there was a couple things that I didn't get to put in the book because they were too visual.

Like it was just too hard to explain it. And so if you want to just get a little taste test, I break down The Rock because who doesn't want to see many, like dozens of cues from The Rock. So I break down The Rock.

I do a deep dive of Britney Spears because I didn't even, that was a whole book, right? Like I didn't have time to do it. I do Morgan Freeman. How does he get that vocal power? I talk about how he does it. Princess Diana. Why were we so intrigued by her? And Justin Bieber. So I break down some cues in there. He just wanted a little taste test. And that's all Science of People or is that? That's on YouTube and on Science People. And we have our interview on there too. So if people want to go watch that,

they can. Yes. Final two questions before I ask them, I want to acknowledge you, Vanessa, for constantly showing up. I think introverts who felt like they grew up socially awkward takes a lot of courage to put yourself out there, to constantly be in front of a camera, to be speaking on stages, to be learning this work, and then sharing your work. I think it's really challenging to do for introverts. So for the journey that you've been on to try to... Healing. Healing. Yeah, healing is big too. But the journey you've had and you constantly

keep showing up and putting this work out there is really inspiring. So I acknowledge you for that. Thank you. I asked you this question before, but this is called the three truths question.

Imagine it's your last day on earth many years away. And for whatever reason, all of your work has to go with you to another place. So no one has access to your content. If you could leave three lessons to the world behind,

what would you say would be those three lessons for you? Life is too short to fake it. Find the real warmth or the real competence or get rid of it. There are unique flavors of charisma. You don't have to be the bubbly extrovert. You can be the wise, competent sage or the quiet, powerful leader or the empathetic, compassionate healer. Those are all charismatic.

There are different flavors. And lastly, your words have power. Your cues have power. Don't waste them. We can change someone's physiology with a single word. So with every word you put out there, think about how can you infect people for good. That is powerful. What's the most powerful word we can infect someone with in a positive way?

I think gratitude. I think every time you say thank you, I'm appreciative, I'm grateful, you're gifting them honor and you're feeling grateful yourself. It's the only word I can think of that has a double effect both ways. So can I end on gratitude? Sure. I want to thank you so much because you created a tipping point in my career where you believed in me, you listened to me wholeheartedly, and you put my work out there. And people listened and it was a total tipping point in my career. And so you made me do podcasts. You made me realize I

can do them in their safe spaces, which I was a little afraid of. You made me realize that I can find my people and I just have to speak to them. And so it's, and you're, and you're always that you always say, yes, how can I help? Which I'm so grateful for. Oh, I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you in return. You know, it's interesting, appreciation, the word gratitude and appreciation. Right when you said that, it made me reflect on my girlfriend and how I feel like every day I tell her how much I appreciate her. You know, I'm like, gosh, I'm so grateful for how you did this or just this thing you did for me. I appreciate it so much. And every time I do it, now that I reflect on it, she's always just like, I don't know, it just warms her up even more.

Yes, yes. Because we don't often feel gratitude in our relationships, right? Like, especially, I've been married for 10 years with my husband for 16 years. Wow. And you get very caught up in the logistics. Yeah.

And so for anyone who's watching, I think we take the people we love for granted. We think about giving gifts of word to our colleagues or to our clients or to our customers but like don't forget the person you live with don't forget the person you care about don't get stuck in the logistics right we're like you know hey honey take the kids hey and so i think that gratitude is especially important at home and i think we the more comfortable we are the less we are gracious less gratitude we have and so i hope that 10 20 30 years i mean everyone in their first i guess

you're like i love you so much you're amazing not everyone no not everyone no not everyone and so i would say like even the first couple years i know i think saying that to her as a gift and so if just your goal is it 10 years from now you can say that to her again what a beautiful goal often she'd be like you're the most amazing man ever. And I'm like, I don't feel like I'm doing anything. I'm just saying I appreciate you. I'm just like, man, I really am so grateful you just did this. Thank you.

I really appreciate the way you said this. I don't think I'm doing something extraordinary. No, it's big. She's like, you have no idea. Yeah, it's like, you're the most amazing man. I'm not like doing some grand gesture. But it is. I'm literally just saying, I'm focusing on something that I really appreciate

that she did every day. And I'm like, I really appreciate the way you showed up here, here, here. And that's why I think gratitude is the most powerful word there is. Because just being appreciative of her makes her think of it as a grand gesture. Imagine that.

Like one word of gratitude is a grand gesture. It doesn't take a boat ride down the water. It doesn't take, you know, 12 dozen roses. It's like just telling someone you appreciate them. And if that's one thing you take away from this interview, that you will right now text someone that you love them and you appreciate them and thank them for being them. It's big.

People remember that stuff. That's a gift. People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. Final question, what's your definition of greatness? I love this because this is my third time here. And I've had, I think my definition has changed over time. It's being in integrity. So it's going back to that important thing.

Greatness is showing up as you are, how you feel, and feeling free to be that way. So that means you like the people in your life. You respect the people in your life. You're showing up congruent. You're showing up with lots of integrity where your cues match your words, which match your emotions. And I think that I am my greatest self when I can show up somewhere as myself and not worry about having to hide, fake, or change. Vanessa, thanks so much. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks for listening. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's show with all the important links.

And also make sure to share this with a friend and subscribe over on Apple Podcasts as well. I really love hearing feedback from you guys. So share a review over on Apple and let me know what part of this episode resonated with you the most. And if no one's told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.