The School of Greatness - Zooey Deschanel: How To LET GO Of Others’ Opinions & ALIGN With Your MOST AUTHENTIC TRUTH

Episode Date: March 18, 2024

Today on The School of Greatness, we're thrilled to welcome the incredibly talented Zooey Deschanel. Zooey is an Emmy, Golden Globe and Grammy nominee and Critics’ Choice Award winner who has charmed big and small screen audiences through her nuanced leading performances in films like “(500) Days of Summer,” the Christmas classic “Elf,” “Yes Man,” “Almost Famous” and the hit television series, “New Girl.” Her band, She & Him, has released seven albums.Zooey is here to share a more personal side of her story, from her recent engagement to the challenges and triumphs of her career in Hollywood. Thank you for joining us, now let the class begin!In this episode you will learnHow Zooey navigates love, engagement, and expressing emotions in her personal life.The biggest hurdles she's faced in her career and how she's overcome them.Zooey's experience with the fluctuating attention of Hollywood fame and how it has impacted her.Insights into Zooey's acting journey, including her most challenging roles and transitions.How Zooey has dealt with rejection and learned not to take it personally, sharing valuable lessons from her time on "New Girl" and other projects.For more information go to www.lewishowes.com/1589IT’S MY BIRTHDAY! 41 years for me, 41 gifts for you – register to win a $250 Amazon gift card by clicking this LINKFor more Greatness text PODCAST to [phone]More SOG episodes we think you’ll love:Eckhart Tolle – https://link.chtbl.com/1463-podRhonda Byrne – https://link.chtbl.com/1525-podJohn Maxwell – https://link.chtbl.com/1501-pod

Welcome back to the School of Greatness, one of the top podcasts in the world. Today, we have the incredibly talented Zooey Deschanel. You know her as the star of the hit TV show, New Girl, and films like Almost Famous. But today, Zooey is here to share a more personal side of her story, from her recent engagement to the challenges and triumphs of her career in Hollywood. Thanks so much for joining us. I think you're going to love this. Now, let's dive in. There were things that happened in the business that were for a little bit kind of felt like we're gonna be the end right I was like oh is this the end am I just gonna be a musician really like you thought your career was over yeah I did yeah really I did I really did in addition to being a musician a writer

and entrepreneur Zoe Deschanel has been in some of our favorite movies like Almost Famous or starring opposite Will Ferrell in the Christmas classic Elf and the offbeat romantic comedy 500 Days of Summer. I had this thing like when I was a kid, people would look at me and laugh and be mean. And so like the same feeling when everyone looks at you. And so it would remind me of that. That was really hard actually.

Really? I really wasn't prepared for it. Like people running up and crowding you and that stuff. Nobody gives you any playbook for that. When I let go and I'm not just going, will they like me if I do that? When I kind of am myself, I am successful. What would you say since starting your career

was the biggest challenge you've had to overcome? The thing is a lot of people see things from far away and they're like, oh, you're so successful. But you have like... Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness. Very excited about our guest. We have the inspiring Zooey Deschanel in the house. So good to see you. Good to see you, too.

Very excited. We, in a past life, we used to be neighbors. It's true. We both grew up in the 90s. Yeah. And we both got engaged around the same time. I know. It's incredible.

So congratulations on the engagement. Thank you. You too. Thank you. Thank you. Where'd you guys get engaged, by the way? Well, here's the interesting thing i um i told her at the beginning of last year that at the end of the by the end of the year we'll be engaged oh good for you because

she wanted to start a family eventually and she was like you know what's the plan right i was like okay by the end of the year i will get engaged yeah so i had a live annual event called the summit of greatness that i did in col, Ohio, my hometown. Your hometown. Which I did every year. And I interviewed her on stage in front of thousands of people. And at the end, you'll like this, at the end of our interview, at the end of the event, I stood up and I said, everyone, you know, let's give it up for Martha. Everyone's clapping at the end of our conversation.

And then I'm standing there in front of the audience and saying, oh, wait a minute. I forgot. You know, there's one question I've always wanted to ask someone on my show that I've never asked in 10 years of the show. And so I turned to her and I, you know, asked her, will you marry me? That's so sweet. And so it was a cool little moment. Her family was there. My family was there. That's great.

So it was a good moment. Was everybody surprised? Was she surprised? I think she was. Yeah. Because I was planning to do it later in's great. So it was a good moment. Was everybody, was she surprised? I think she was. Yeah. Because I was planning to do it later in the year. So it was kind of months before. So it was a good moment.

That's great. Did you know that you were going to get engaged at that moment? I had no idea. No. I was really surprised. Did you guys talk about engagement? I mean, we had, like, we did. And I, like, knew at some point it would happen.

But we'd been together a long time like four years and um i just really wasn't expecting it especially we were on a tour of um edinburgh castle which is like this amazing castle um and um we had the kids with us and and it was kind of like one of those things like going to a museum you know you do with the kids and they're kind of like you know um did they know no not until the like the very right before it happened he kind of um he jonathan went in the other room to like get miked up and somehow my son like saw it somehow got confused was like why is why does he have a mic on you know like he didn't know what a mic was but he was like

something weird is going on um but um they actually held up the sign that said oh wow that's cute they had the sign yeah it was all it was all a big surprise. But we finished this tour of the castle and like my son had put this big giant sticker on me. And actually earlier on the day, it was funny because Jonathan's like, you know, we're going to this castle. We might meet the royal family. So you have to dress nicely. This was like how he got me to like not wear jeans. Wow. I mean, and I was like, oh, OK. This was like how he got me to like not wear jeans. Wow. I mean, and I was like, oh, okay. I was like, that's kind of weird. I just thought it was kind of weird.

I was like, why would they just be like hanging out? Right, right. It's not like a castle where people live. It's like, you know. Sure. More of like a museum. And so I was like, okay, that's weird. And then it was like no hats.

And I was like. It's like all these rules. Also weird. Yeah, there were like a ton of rules in the calendar. And then it was like no hats. And I was like, it's like all these rules. Yeah. There were like a ton of rules in the calendar. He goes, I don't know. He's like, you better iron your clothes. And he was like, actually I'll iron it for you. Like he ironed my skirt for me.

And I was like, I was like, he's really like, really wants to do your nails. Well, he didn't actually tell me. And my mom was actually like, she was like, you need to get someone to do her hair and makeup or something. And he was like, no, she's fine. Which luckily I like, I luckily had a manicure, all that stuff. Maybe he knew you already had that. He knew it. Otherwise he might have been.

I took her to go like the week before. I was like, oh, we should go you know we're going on a trip let's get a manicure i was like i'll get a foot rub or something you know which i might never do but i'm like i'll go with you yeah yeah all these things you have to think because they take pictures of your hands right exactly close-ups you know both of us growing up in the 90s i'm curious i didn't i didn't really learn about how to create healthy relationships growing up i didn't learn there wasn't as much tools information and books about love and vulnerability and intimacy yeah not as much info like not as much accessible info right

therapy wasn't an option growing up really it was was more like being from Ohio was never like talk about your feelings type of thing. When I got older and I started to do kind of like healing work and learn about relationships and vulnerability and intimacy, I was like, wow, there's so much more I needed to learn about love and intimacy. Since we're talking about intimacy and love, I'm curious, did you have a good toolbox of how to be in great, like how to express love and receive love growing up? Or was it more challenging for you to experience love?

Um, I have like such great parents and like a great, my sister is great. So great. Like I have a really great like family unit that I came from and I went to a school that was very like encouraging. Like we had basically every year from seventh grade on at my school, we had like kind of like a weekly group therapy kind of session. Yeah, it's called the it's called their like mysteries program. And and everybody learns how to express their feelings. And and it's it's great. But I,

I still have learned so much just as an adult, like, you know, going to therapy, I, you know, all those things I have found to be incredibly enriching to my life. And, and I'm always learning and always discovering. I'm a very, I'm very much like a self-improver. and I'm always learning and always discovering I'm a very I'm very much like a self-improver like I'm always like looking to like get better like there's always something to work on and that's always how I've been I I'm like gimme notes really yeah like you know even in acting and everything I want I want to always be improving I I want to get, I'm always looking to get better. That's just in everything.

Yeah. Because like, if you're just, what, I just want to stay in the middle? No. I want to keep going. I want to get better at everything all the time. Sometimes you hear the stereotype of, you know, actors or actresses that can't take feedback because they get so criticized and they feel like they're not good enough. But you are more of like, I want to dive in and give me feedback.

You have to. I think partially too, because I'm actually really, I'm actually like a very direct person myself. So I'll like say what's on my mind. You're like, I don't like that. And then if somebody pushes, yeah, I'll be like, I don't know. Tell me why. I will only go out one and a why.

But like, I'll push back at hoping that somebody will, not like a rude way, but hoping that somebody will give me why. And we can come to a better understanding. I think it's like I really want to do the best job possible, you know, and that and that that's always the goal. You know, like if you are respectful and nice and you say, I don know i don't agree with that um but you have still as an actor it's part of the job to to take a direction that's you have to wow if you can't trust your director then you're in you're kind of screwed yeah um sometimes you have to push back because you don't understand or sometimes you think maybe they have the wrong idea, and you'll do a better job doing something else. And I always think, like, an actor, it's an actor's job to know the character better than anybody else.

Really? Better than the director or the producer? Yeah, because they have a lot of things to think about. Producers thinking about, like, very, very, very many things on the outside of the production. The director's thinking about like everything overall they certainly will have like a lot of ideas about you know it's kind of more big picture director's more big picture actors more like it's more you know micro right and every job pretty much other than director and producer on film set is very micro. So it's like, you know, you have a lot of people doing very, very, very detailed work.

And I think of an actor, you're just doing very, very detailed work on your character. So if you think something's off, you have to say something. But like, again, you also have to be able to take direction. So it's kind of like,

you have to be quite flexible. That's interesting. Yeah. So you're big into growth and wanting to become better. Oh, always. Yeah. So you're big into growth and wanting to become better. Oh, always. Yeah. What would you say, what would you say since starting your career was the biggest challenge

you've had to overcome? Oh, since starting. Oh, like, oh, there've been so many, I mean, there's like, there's so many times where you're like, the thing is, is a lot of people see things from far away and they're like, oh, you're so successful. But you have like, you have like moments of great success and then you have moments where that success dips you know especially since I started out doing movies movies are like you might have like a big movie and it is marketed to everybody and there's tons of publicity around it

and like everyone's hearing about you and then you get like a ton of attention maybe like a lot of offers you get you know a lot of accolades people come up to you you know you get that and then you know when that marketing goes away and people aren't seeing then those things kind of ebb and flow a lot and you you feel it how does that feel like when you get all the attention for three to four months and then yeah crickets for a year, six months? I mean, it's nice to have it's nice for me. It's nice to have breaks from like if you're like being wrecked, like the people maybe like say like Taylor Swift. Right. Is like Taylor Swift can't go every day, every day, you know, and that's challenging that you can't go.

you know and that's challenging that you can't go and it's like sometimes you just want to go and be a normal person go to the grocery store and like not have people like looking at you all the time i think i think it's nice to have some breaks um but i definitely think like you know as you that hopefully as an actor you have like a long career and then you have you you go through phases of your life and you you're gonna fit different you know as an actor you play different parts so you're gonna fit into different categories over the course of your career and that you have these it can be awkward transitions between like really yeah what's the hardest transition you've had to make in your career um i don't i don't know if i would say like, I mean, it's definitely like, like, I mean, I really did think about, I mean, it wasn't even like my, like, it wasn't even,

there were things that happened in the business that were maybe for us for a little bit kind of felt like we're gonna be the end right of like i was like because i do music too and i was like there was a time i remember it was like i was doing indie movies like my whole 20s and um was successful at that and doing and then like some bigger comedies and stuff like that and all of a sudden around the end of my 20s the a bunch of the studios cut their slates like majorly so then they cut out those like comedy kind of movies that they would do and they cut the like parts of the studio that would do the smaller the stuff you're working on the stuff that i did all got cut. Right. And then, um, they were making superhero movies only. And

that's cool. I, I like superhero movies, but like, that's not the only thing I like. And that's not the kind of stuff that I like cut my teeth doing. Um, and so I was like, Ooh, is this the end? Am I just going to be a musician? Really? Like you thought your career was over? Yeah, I did. Yeah. Really? Like you thought your career was over? Yeah, I did. Yeah. Really? I did. I really did. And I toured like for, I remember I toured like for a year straight. I was just like not working on anything. Yeah. I just toured and then New Girl popped up. I remember getting that script and I hadn't thought about like back then. It's funny. Now we just think TV and movies all the same.

Everyone like all these movie stars do TV. Back then, like people who did movies did not cross over to do TV. It was like considered this weird thing. Like there was like some line of delineation and it was like, what are you doing? Why would you do a TV show? It was like maybe occasionally. Don't ruin your career yeah yeah and and maybe it would be an hbo show somebody would do showtime or something like that but but but doing a network tv show was like not done wow and i remember being

like that's stupid why would that be you know and and i kind of think my own kind of like a little bit of rebelliousness inside me going well that's ridiculous why would i let that define me like if the material is good and i trust the show creator which i did she's like unbelievably talented and i know who's involved like Jake Kazin who directed the pilot like I've known forever and he's extraordinarily talented if I know all these people and I know they do quality work and they are like doing something that I want to work on why do I care whether it's like a movie or a tv show you know obviously doing a tv show is like a little bit more like getting married so you're're kind of like, you know, you're in it.

You could be in it for a really long time. But yeah, I remember being like, nah, I'm not listening to that stupid, like old idea that like film actors aren't supposed to do TV. So I just did it and it paid off so, so well. And then, then all these film actors that I knew were coming up and going, I want to do a TV show. I remember like famous, very famous people yeah coming and saying oh i want to do tv and i was like i was like i felt good about the fact that i had done something that was a little bit

scary you know but it paid off you know yeah that's why i think i think you you have to go where the like as an actor anyone creative creative, go where the material is. Don't think about the medium so much. Really? Because like, yeah. Who cares where it is, whether it's a play, it's like, you know, a podcast, you know, a TV show, you know, a web series, a movie, a little tiny indie. If the material is good, that should be the thing that's the most important so what makes you decide what you want to work on now and would you do you know a small web series if the material was incredible now or it would have to be like really incredible

um no i would do i honestly that i go where material it's material and who I'm working with and the team, you know? Yeah. Cause obviously, I mean, I've also like read scripts and been like, I don't get this. And then it turns out to be great because the director knows how to make it great. Interesting. Yeah. Was there ever a script that you, that you read and you said, nah, I don't really like this, but then it later went on to be like this big success. Yeah, so many. Really? Yes.

Well, because sometimes it's like I don't get it because I don't, like because it's not for me. There are things like knowing our own, like what we are great at, you know, is also important. Like I always want to know I'm going to add value to something. Like if I don't get it, I'm not going to add value, you know. I'll be like floundering, but then I'll be like, there have been times where I've read something and I'm like, I don't really get it. And then I'll see some actress just like crush it. And I'm like, oh, she knew how to do that part. It's just like who they are and their

angle on it. And yeah, I mean, it's happened so many times. How have you learned how to, I guess, deal with rejection or with not getting the part? You know, when I look at your list of credits, it seems like everything that you've ever auditioned for, you've gotten. It's what it looks like. There's so much you've worked on, right? And so many successes.

But I know just being in LA that you've probably done many rounds of auditioning, especially early in your career, where you just go on audition and you don't get it. Oh, yeah. How have you learned to navigate and I guess go through that process of rejection? Yeah, it's really hard at first. And I'm really happy that I did it. I was like in high school when I started.

So it felt like, oh, this is bonus. You know, it was like what I really wanted to do. But I didn't think, oh, I have to make it now when I'm 16 years old. I thought like, oh, hopefully by the time I'm 25, I'm successful. But I wasn't like, oh, I need to be crushing it as a teenager, crushing it as a teenager. So I kind of knew that it was like recreational, but it did mean a lot to me. And I would take the rejection pretty hard. I mean, yeah, I'm an emotional person. So so i would be like i remember like crying and like it was it was sometimes you get really attached to something like you work on it you really want it you're practicing it you're on yeah yeah but then i i think i realized

you know after a lot of that that i don't know, your, your skin gets thicker and you start to just go, well, if they don't, you know, they don't get me or maybe I wasn't the right person for it. Like, like I was just talking, you know, that, that, that it's not, it's not an insult to you if you don't get a part. It's not like, oh, you suck because of that. I think actually the best thing, now that we're talking, the best thing that happened to me was, I remember the first time I was involved on the other side of casting. Like I had already been cast in something and they wanted me to come in and read with all the guys coming in.

TV show or movie? It was a movie, yeah. So you had the part i had like we want to see you test with other people exactly they wanted to see me like read with a bunch of guys who were coming in to play like my boyfriend and see you know chemistry and see how they were and i remember that the guy who was actually the absolute best actor, he was so incredible, was just not right for the part. Interesting. And there was another guy who was more like limited in his skill, but he was right for the part and was the one who got it.

But I kind of was like, oh, I wish I could just read. I mean, I didn't ever tell the actor that didn't get cast because I never saw him again. But he was incredible right and you're like oh my god what an actor like he just taking everything in in a way that like I admire so much but it's not about you it's about and it's not about your skills it's about an overall persona it's like there's certain parts I'm just not going to play because I don't represent that to people. You know, it's like there are just certain things that, you know, you don't work in that part. And that was it.

But I feel like a lot of people take things so personally when their project doesn't work out or they launch a book and people don't buy it or whatever. It's really hard. So how, when did you learn to not take things personally and to realize it's not about me and my talent. It's just, I don't play the character the way that needs to be played. Yeah. And it's just not the right fit. When did, when was that?

How old were you when you started? I was in my twenties for sure. I mean, it took me a while cause I started when I was really young, but yeah, it was definitely my twenties. And you know, it's still like still things keep connecting. Like as I get older, I'm like I things I I'm less affected by those things. But every once in a while I'm like surprised by something. I'll be like, whoa, that hurt. You know, of course. Yeah. What was the last time you had that experience, though? Because I'm assuming at this moment people just say we want you for this part. When was the last time you had that experience though? Because I'm assuming at this moment,

people just say, we want you for this part. You probably don't have to audition that much or maybe they just want to do a quick read. I don't audition very much. Yeah. I don't audition much. Hey, we want you. If you want it, you got the part. Right.

I mean, it's not so much that stuff. It's just, I mean, I can't even think, but I mean, I'm just saying like, I'm still surprised by stuff. You know, I can't think specifically. It's not the same stuff because it's not like going on a reading and then and putting my heart into an audition and then practicing yeah you know but I actually you know I I don't think that stuff ever goes to waste because even if you're like you work really hard on something and you put that energy into a character like you end up using it later

and like another character i i always think like you work really hard on something and people remember when you work hard and you you know um people remember so it doesn't it doesn't go away so it's like when you do a good job people remember and maybe in three years yeah they might go you know what she wasn't right for that part, but we really liked her. And she did, you know, she put so much effort into that. It is really appreciated when you, and I know for myself, there are times when I don't have, you know, when I really like say, I still have, you know, I still will like meet, you know, directors and producers and things. And when I take the time to really study their past work or study the script that, um, that they're, you know, making, I, it, it, it really pays off. Like if I haven't done the work, I don't come across as well, you know? So all those

things, I mean, we, we still are freelancers actors are really parents you still have to prepare and show up you know wow yeah what is the the part you played or the the project you worked on that taught you the most about yourself maybe it was maybe it was a well-known thing that people know about and see or maybe it was something small that no one really ever saw but what's the part you've played in your career that taught you the most about you i mean probably like getting to do new girl because it was so long like it was over you know seven seasons and i mean it was like eight years of my life and and um before that you know because i would do like go from film to film um you show like less of yourself with a film and to some degree it's like i was probably playing less lead roles more like you know like large supporting

roles like you know um and you show just like more you're kind of like picking and choosing like what you show. And that's, you know, an important thing in terms of like telling the story. But when you're telling like this very broad story and it's very long and you have like, you know, a limited number of like lead characters and you show a lot of yourself. And and before that, I also was not necessarily known for doing that kind of a little bit more broad comedy. Like I wasn't doing that. And I knew it was something I could do. That was like, when I read that script, I'm like, I know I haven't done this before,

but I know I can nail this. It was like a really like, it was a really like, I felt extremely confident like I know I can I can I know I can do this and I know nobody thinks of me as this yet like I what my first thing when I was really young first in my career and I remember I would go to auditions and I would do movies and I would get cast in a lot of these like kind of sardonic deadpan sarcastic kind of roles and then move in playing like girlfriends and things like that um and it was just different it was different from a lot of the stuff I'd done so it was it was fun to get to be like I can do you know it's like nice when you know like you know you're

like i haven't done this but i know i can nail it wow that was like it did teach me a lot to have confidence in the things that are like like i know i can value add here wow so eight years of your life for one project essentially yeah long time what would you say were the the three biggest lessons you learned about yourself during those eight years? Maybe personally in your life and your career, what opened up for you during that time? That you got to get enough sleep. Sleep. Sleep is so important. Your health. Yeah. I think like, yeah, I had to, I really took, we were just working so hard. Our first like three seasons, we were like not getting like, I mean, we're just like working so hard our first like three seasons we were like not getting like i mean we're just like working so hard and just like spending so many hours on set it's like and i got into like

horseback riding at that time i like spending out so like the time i spent like outside like with animals i would take like all these vitamins to help with my, like make sure that I didn't get sick. I did not get sick ever. Everyone was like, like couldn't believe it. But that was because I really started like really taking care of myself. Really? Yeah. Did you feel yourself starting to get, you know, tired or exhausted from just all the shooting? So exhausted.

Yeah, we were all so tired. Oh my gosh. Like 16 hour days. Oh yeah. Just nonstop. All the time. Yeah. Really?

And the season was what? Three to four months roughly or less? Eight months.stop. All the time. Yeah. Really? And the season was what? Three to four months roughly or less? Eight months. Eight months for the season? Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah.

That's intense. It was intense. Yeah. I mean, we all, we spent more time around our cast mates, like at our, you know, like our crew than we did around our families. Wow. Yeah. Okay.

So that's one lesson. What else opened up for you during that time? I also, like, I mean, I ended up, I had both my kids while I was on the show. Wow. So I did like... How was that, being a mom and being a star of a show? It was really hard.

It's like you have two high demanding jobs. Yeah. You know, being a mom and being a star of a star show. I will say too that my sister was on the same lot as me shooting her show. Wow. And also had, she had her younger baby around the same time I had my older one. So they're just a couple months apart. So they got to be together.

They got to be together. Yeah, it was nice because she was such a great she's such a great role model she's a very hard worker she's a very good mom she just like she gave me so much guidance you know like that used it i think like definitely like i'm not one to ask for help very much, but, like, getting advice from people can really just be so helpful. That's beautiful. Yeah. Was she there the whole time filming as well? Pretty much.

Almost. I think the last season of my show she was done, but she was pretty much – because her show went, like, 11 seasons. She's getting those royalties. Yeah, I was going to say those. The dramas tend to go longer when they're, when they're. Wow. So what was it like growing up with an older sister who was also in the industry and the parents in the industry?

What did she teach you that really helped you in your career? I actually started before her, even though she's older than me. I mean, she, she wanted to do it like at the same time, but I, she went to theater school in Boston and I was here in LA, um, in high school. And I was like, I had the hustle in me and I was like, I have to do this. And so I started auditioning when I was like 16 but she was in college and not like what was just focused on her studies I mean she was studying acting but or theater and acting but um she wasn't trying to book gigs no I was trying to book gigs like in high school I don't know it's crazy to me now to think my mom had this thing because from the time I was little, I was like, I have to do this. And she's like, okay, that my parents made a deal with me because they were like, we know a lot of child actors and we're

like, no, don't turn out well, just because it's just it's a lot. And you have to have a special temperament, which they're like, you know, I um like child actors that are really good it's like you have to like be okay doing something over and over again and like you know it it was uh yeah it's a different skill than being like a grown-up actor right so they're like once you can drive yourself to auditions you can yeah okay gotcha you can um you can get an agent and so basically when i was like 16 i was like i'm out i wasn't out i mean still living with my parents so my mom like is an actor my dad like is a cinematographer and a director so i had like a lot of i mean i can't we can't Like, I can't possibly emphasize enough how much, like, creative help I had from my family unit. Because everyone is, it's funny because people will be like, oh, like, nepotism.

I'm like, no, my dad's a DP. Like, no one's getting jobs because their dad's a DP. Like, it's definitely not. But, you know, my dad's a DP like it's it's definitely not but you know my dad is a great creative mind and like he's such a talented person so like incredible like like knows everything about film my mom is a great actor and is so nurturing and so like they both like my mom would coach me like when I didn't have an acting coach she would like coach me and she would help me read lines with me she'd be so supportive my dad I would have like so many great discussions about film and filmmaking with

my dad like they both would help me some I mean my dad would also like read lines with me and give me great direction and they I mean and then having a sister who's an actor, it just makes you just like automatically have a community. And how much our communities help us, whether it is our family or whether it's like our found communities, our found families. That's so important to, you know, keeping going because this is a business like the one i'm in it it's easy to want to just go away because it can be like oh like you just have to not go away you have to just keep sticking it out because it you can have long periods of time i remember like i quit college to do the movie almost famous and i mean it was my first year of college and I I basically was supposed to just come home and do the movie and go back and then I just made this weird decision to like ship

all my stuff home from Chicago I was going to Northwestern I just was like I'm just gonna ship all my stuff home so I shipped all my stuff home I do that movie and then i got no work for a year and i was just like yeah and i was like what do i do you know because you could have a year where you don't work or even like last year we're all like like on strike like there's no work you could have a terrible year where you don't work or the pandemic or all kinds of things and you just have to be like no i i like this enough i'm just gonna just hope yeah next year yeah keep doing it did you ever have a time where you thought oh maybe i won't get booked again yeah like after i had kids you know you change a lot yeah i mean but you're on a star show and you're crushing it and you're you know, ratings. You still have those feelings. Really?

Yeah. I mean, I thought, not that I wouldn't get booked again, but it does feel, it is, I will say, actually, it's not just about kids. But when you're on a show that everyone knows, like, you know, for a long time, and that's what people know you as. And, and, um, it goes away. It's hard to get booked again sometimes. It is because people think of you as that. And I think especially like me in particular, like my, my feasts and like who I am was very much associated with that brand. And yeah, you get, you get a little nervous, like what, who am I now? Like who, there was a, you get a little nervous. Like, who am I now? Like, there's a short film by Jonathan Demme with Susan Sarandon and Christopher Walken

called Who Am I This Time? It's about like actors. And I always like the title. It will ring in my head. It's like, who am I this time? But it is scary to go, well, that character's behind me. I can't just like be that character again. I have to find new characters. And it's like, well, who am I this time? But it is scary to go, well, that character's behind me. I can't just, like, be that character again. I have to find new characters.

And it's like, well, who am I now? So after New Girl ended, was it a challenging time for you? Yeah. Yeah, it's hard. I mean, also, that was my family, you know? So you're seeing each other every day for eight years. For eight years. And then you all separate.

Yeah, and we had, like, these inside jokes. And we, like, make each other separate. Yeah. And we had, like, these inside jokes. And we, like, make each other laugh every day. And we had, like, our rapport. And I miss that. You know, it's weird to go from that to, like, seeing them, you know. It's not like we can, there's, we'll never again see all those people every day. You know, it's kind of like graduating from high school and moving off. Yeah, you're with your family every day

and all of a sudden you're not. Who am I now? And everyone moves on to different relationships and jobs and opportunities. Yeah, and even if you go back and you're with your family a lot, your friends from high school, they all scatter around the country.

Wow. It is a huge transition. It's a long time to spend with people. Here's a long time. It's a long time. It's longer than high school. I mean, it's like a long time. That's a long time to spend with people. Here's a long time. It's a long time. It's longer than high school. I mean, it's like a long time. That's a long time.

It was a decade. You know, it's interesting because I used to work out with one of your co-stars with Max. Oh, nice. Yeah, he loves to work out. CrossFit. Yeah, CrossFit. Yeah. I was just in CrossFit classes with him when I moved here to LA.

And this was kind of like, I guess, you know, maybe the height of the show or the first few seasons. So I knew who he was. And we were always like kind of competing against each other. One time we were like just chatting after a workout class. And we were like, hey, you want to grab a smoothie and just catch up? And I was just like, I didn't even know his story. But I was like, how long have you been out here? And he's like, I've been in L.A. for a long time.

And I've been essentially for 10 years busting my butt every year feeling like I'm not going to make it. Getting a little job here and there that would keep me in the industry. Right. Until New Girl showed up. Yeah, he worked so hard. Max is an example. Like a decade before he got an opportunity. Yeah, who would like, everyone knew was so talented, but just hadn't had the right break for him.

You know, we were talking about earlier, like, oh, yeah, sometimes you're great, but you're not right for that part. He just hadn't had that part. You know, it's like Schmidt was like, he was perfect. He was perfect for that. Yeah, I mean, he was probably like the easiest casting we did. Really? Yeah, I mean, he and Jake Johnson were the first two people other than me that were cast i read with everybody pretty much like everybody that was coming in a second time i

i went and i said right away as soon as i was cast i said i want to read with everybody because i want to see how they are with me not just like how they are just generally it's like how how do we play off of each other like and i also wanted to be there to make people feel comfortable. Because I know how hard it is when you walk in a room. It can be so intimidating. And I'm like, I can be the person to go like, it's okay. You know? Let's have fun.

Yeah, let's have fun. So I just kind of wanted to be there to make everybody feel comfortable. What was that like reading with both those guys? Did you know right away, like, oh, these, these gotta be the guys. Yeah. I mean, Max was pretty obvious and Jake, they both were,

were pretty obvious. I mean, Max was, was just like, had that. He, it was like, and,

and again, I think all that stuff had like, and, and Jake was similar, like where he had been kind of toiling away for a while. It hadn't quite hit the right part. But he you know what? The thing about Jake, what he did was Max just like was Schmidt and like figured out how to play that part like guns blazing. Jake played a lot of people played at the Nick character, like like little bits, like like kind of, like there were lots of pretty much everybody that I read with was good.

You know, it wasn't like there were no bad actors I read with. They were all great because they were being called back. But what Jake had was like, he was, he was like, he made it all feel natural, real. It wasn't like he was playing at it. Like he was playing at jokes. He was playing it like he, he, playing at jokes. He was playing it like he was it. He was being it.

Yeah, which is the difference to me between something really succeeding and then just something being kind of like not bad, you know? Right, right. That was a good job, but it wasn't like it. He got the character in a way that was like he was real. Yeah. We were talking right before we started about being original. Yes. And kind of leaning into your uniqueness.

Yeah. Yeah. You also mentioned, and you've talked about this before, kind of growing up ADHD. And feeling, I guess, maybe not accepted in certain moments. Yes. Or feeling shut down or feeling like people needed to put you in a box or whatever it might be. I grew up very dyslexic and still struggle reading and writing today. And you were saying beforehand about how if you can learn to be original with the,

I guess, difficulty you have or the challenge you're facing with, that can be a beautiful asset to yours later in life. how did you learn to be original yeah with your unique gifts right challenges and not let them hold you back but allow you to blossom yeah I mean I think that was like the journey of my school years was learning to be myself like and I've always been a pretty I was thought like I'm I was felt like I was normal but then everybody else would be like everyone's weird yes um so I think being like being my authentic self but still you know thriving within a system. That was the journey of my, you know, like schooling years. And I think when I was really young, my, my big challenge was that, again, I think I mentioned,

I'm a very direct person. And so as a kid, I didn't know, like kids are supposed to be like quiet and, and I would just be like, I't like that you know like I mean like a little kid you know I didn't know I'm like that's just how I felt and I didn't know you weren't supposed to say that and I'm not sure exactly how that came about in my personality but just kind of like how I am saying something like that to a teacher not the the best idea. Sure. But, like, learning how to, you know, be in a system. Navigate the system. Be a good student. By the time I graduated high school, actually, by the time our records counted, I was, like, the best student.

Really? It was so funny because I went from being, like, this misfit, wild, like in the principal's office every day. Wow. About to go to school. Got diagnosed with ADHD when like no, like very few girls were. Because I wasn't like crazy hyperactive. I was just like. Distracted.

I was very distracted. I was very distracting. I would talk to my neighbors. I would chit chatter. At school, at the desk the desk i make jokes out loud i have a very loud voice um yeah do all kinds of stuff you're not supposed to do sure and then but by the time i was like in eighth grade i was like i want to be a good student i want to thrive in this system how can i do that like and then I started like seeking out answers and I remember my mom being like well like you know like maybe just listen sometimes and just talk like right away

like you know like okay that's good advice and then maybe like if you want to make more friends like ask people about themselves like those things don't just talk about yourself like those things that I didn't know naturally those were things I had to learn it wasn't like I know like I'm kind of outgoing naturally but like I didn't have like every social skill just like sure automatically so there were a lot of things that I I learned and really you know helped me thrive and like, I wanted to be a good student. So I actually spent like pretty much all my time in high school studying. Yeah. I was like, I was like, I want to be a good student. I know some people do it naturally and just like, don't have to study and

they can just waltz in. But I know I like learned that's not me. I have to study. I have to work hard. Like what's important to me, theater and academics. And I'm just going to focus on those things and knowing that I don't I can't just like do all that and like party and like, you know, have a crazy social life. I realized that focusing on those things, because that's what was important to me, that I was able to achieve those things because i i i really put my laser focus on it and then by the end of high school i graduated with honors like i was like crushed it yeah exactly i got you know it was like i got a really good sat score like all the stuff but it was only because i studied and i i worked really hard not because i just like i think a lot of people want you to think they're just like naturally gifted and maybe some, you know, there are people who are, but that was not me. I had to work hard. Wow. Yeah.

But I realized how much applying myself, how, how rewarding that was, you know, probably set you up for success with your acting career as well. It's because you were really preparing for all the roles. Yes. And that's what, like what i try to impart on my children i think i was telling you that like my daughter like was in a play and i just like i told her like we gotta go over your lines every day and then there was like one day she was like well i don't want to i was like well then maybe you don't want those lines and then she's like no no i do so we like really you know i i think if i impart anything to them it's that just like working hard it's not a it's not a burden it's like a privilege like if you have that like if you have the you know the

inspiration to work hard that means you really like something yeah it seems to me i was talking with a um dr becky who's a big parenting expert. You know Dr. Becky? Yeah, I follow her on Instagram. Yeah, I just had her on last week. Yeah. And she was saying that one of the biggest challenges with parenting and kids today is the lack of hard work in kids.

Yeah. Kind of parents trying to rescue the kids a lot and make it easier so they're less complaining or less having fits and just happy all the time. Right. And she was saying how that's one of the biggest challenges for kids to develop strong character in themselves, strong self-confidence by going through adversity and putting them in more adversity. Yes. It sounds like that's something you like to do as well, is make sure that they're instilled in hard work and discipline. Why do you think so many parents today struggle with that? Well, I think it's like not about, it's funny, you say discipline and I'm like.

Not discipline, but just instill the hard work. No, no, it's the right word. I think people associate it with the wrong things. Discipline means teaching, right? But people go, oh, discipline, they think it's like hard. And like think it's like hard and like it's like no it's really like it's really about it's about feeling inspired to do something and that you know we we know we have a practice where we do something every day even if it's not you know um even if it's not like the most fun thing but we leave 20 minutes for it or whatever, even five minutes, like leaving that time to devote to something. Um, and I think it's, it's more about like those, those practices and yeah. And don't try not shying away from

having a hard time. Like not everything is going to be easy all the time. And I can, I can tell you like, you know, we all have our challenges and that those challenges like to make us who we are. And, and, and I do think like that, um, that, that, um, the hardest things I went through definitely helped me so much. Really? Oh yeah. Oh my gosh. What was, what was the, in your mind, one of the most challenging things you had to overcome that supported you the most later in life? Yeah. Like, Oh, like I would say like, I mean, look, it's, it's funny because there were like, I, I said it like a long time ago. And then sometimes people like make funny when you say like,

Oh, like I, I had a lot of people be very mean to me, like in seventh grade, it was very hard, right? Look, I know that happens to everybody. And I'm not saying like, oh, I'm a victim. I'm not, I only say it because it was, it was painful to me at the time. I was upset a lot. And, but, but, but what was the reason why I tell the story, it's not to say I'm a victim. It's only to say that even things that are painful, like I learned a lot. Like I learned to like laugh about things, like having a sense of humor about things, having perspective on it, going, well, this is bad now. But think about how it's going to be next week. Maybe it's going to be better next week. Or like, well, I started to learn it. It was like,

you're getting little bits of it, you know, like now I have that life philosophy, but it was like over years that you kind of, um, you know, develop that knowledge that you go, okay, well, like seventh grade was horrible, but eighth grade was better. But it was partially because I invested that time into it and I didn't want it to be so bad. And I realized like, I think, I think the important thing, and probably what you're talking about, Dr. Becky saying that, that, that when it's not the parent going in and swooping in and saving somebody, when it's the parent giving advice to a child or, you know, an adolescent and saying, well, if I were you, I'd do this.

And then the kid figuring it out on their own. Yes. And then going, you know, that really helped. And then them being empowered to, like, get through something themselves. that gives you confidence, that helps your self-esteem. All those things are positive things. How have you learned? I mean, there's a lot of people that watch and listen who are successful entrepreneurs or they're launching businesses. Yeah.

They're very driven individuals who also want to better themselves. Yeah. driven individuals who also want to better themselves. There's a lot of women that watch and listen who also want to be driven and successful in their careers and want to be moms. Yeah. But sometimes they feel that sometimes I feel like, how can I be really successful and competitive in my career, but also raise good kids and show up and be a great mom and not have mom guilt if I have to go and pursue my dream at the same time. Yeah.

So it's like teaching through example to live your dreams. Right. But maybe you won't be there all the time for your kids. Yeah. Or certain times you won't be able to be there. How did you learn to navigate that, you know, when your career was just booming with this, you know, these eight years and not have the mom guild, but also be willing to pursue your dream. Like it's a dance. How did you navigate that? Well, like when I was on new girl, I was taking my kids like with me pretty much every day to work

and like, like they had their own little play area and stuff. And they, so that was really helpful. I was, I felt like supported. My sister had done it similarly so she so I saw it you know I was like okay this is and I and I remember asking my agents um to if they could connect me with some other actresses who had done that you know um and so that was really helpful to me to be able to like have that kind of role modeling and advice. Again, I just I don't think our world is necessarily set up for working moms, like, unfortunately, although. And so you kind of have to fight a little bit for it. I think, yeah. I mean, you have to like, you have to say like, well, I need to, you have to set your boundaries, like understand like what's important to your kids, right?

Like if it's important to them to show up at their sporting events or their school plays or whatever, you try to do that as much as you can. And then if you can't one time, it's okay. I mean, look, the way that I work, I like all have to like go away for a certain period of time sometimes or, you know, be working really hard. And I don't always have control over my schedule,

but that's why like when I'm home, I pick, I drop my kids off at school. I pick them up from school. I take them to their dance classes and their theater classes and all the things that they do. And I go to their performances and I go to the meetings at school. And I'm like there all the time. I mean, I try to because my work is concentrated, right? So I have like these periods of time where I can't be there as much.

So I try to, when I can be there as much so i try to when i can be there as absolutely much as possible i can't tell you how many times if you ask my like managers or agents or publicists when they call me i'm like in the car my kids are going like mommy you know like in the back seat because that's like i'm just there all the time. I'm like, you know, watching, you know, classes and they, they, um, you know, I like my, the thing I wanted to for my birthday was like sit and watch musicals with my kids. Like I, you know, and Jonathan, like I, I love spending time with them. So I try to just as much as possible be there when I, when I can. And, and, you know, they know that I work and they know they're proud of me and they, they, um, but I try to be,

you know, and I'm, I'm very involved in their school and I like to, you know, um, be there whenever I can. And, um, so I think that's how I do do i just try to as much as possible be immersed in that but you know we can't always of course yeah of course yeah but you're such an inspiration for so many moms who also want to live their dreams and not feel like they can't do both it is hard i mean it is hard you just have to like it is it does become like Tetris in your mind. Right, navigating the schedules. How can I like be here and there at the same time, right? Sure, sure. This is a question I ask a lot of people that I'm curious your response.

Okay. Before you, I guess it might be hard for me to ask this question because your career has kind of always been growing and taking off since you were a teenager. You've had a lot of opportunities early on. But can you remember the TV show or the movie that really kind of took your career to the next level? Can you remember what time that was or maybe the project? It's always been like little. I always felt like it was little steps. Like I'm always just like stepping stepping I definitely think like when I did new

girl that was like a big thing because all this I had never been like marketed on that level okay so it's like another level 30 or something when we started so it wasn't like I was I wasn't like you know a baby I was a full-grown adult you've done a ton of projects I've done a ton of stuff but like when I did that show my face was on the side of this building that was like down the street from my house at the time. And I remember driving. It was like on Highland in Hollywood. And I was driving to work to New Girl. And I see the face like it's my body.

And it goes it says like simply adorkable. And I was like, oh, my God, this is, like, crazy. And this guy comes up, sees me in my car. I didn't have tinted windows or anything. I just, like, had a, I think I had, like, a Prius or something. Sure. And this guy sees me in the car, and he comes running across Highland. And then he just starts, like, pounding on my window, going, hey, hey, and pointing at the thing.

And I was like, ah. I remember I was, like, stuck in traffic. Like, Highland, anybody who goes to LA, like, Highland is always, like, blocked. And I was like, ah. And I, like, I was like, I got to get away. This guy's, like, pounding on my window. But I remember being like, that's a different level of marketing than I have experienced before. Because I was, like, you know, I did, like, did like 500 days of summer like I was on a bunch of posters and it was it was a different thing

though it was funny because it was like I wasn't the lead character that was like more like the object in that but I was on some big billboards for that but when you're when you're on a billboard it feels it's it's like a weird surreal thing because it seems like it's so physical you know but but there's like bill billboards and then this was a building this was like a building and it was at the bottom of my hill basically at the time yeah so it was crazy how did you learn to, I guess, navigate fame on that level? That was really hard, actually. Really? I really wasn't prepared for it.

And I felt very shy. I wanted to just go... Because I love being on stage and people look and they clap. A lot of you. Yeah, I love that feeling. And that's obviously every actor actor you know performer singer like loves that but like the the like people running up and you know crowding you and that's that was something I had to like nobody gives you any playbook for that I didn't have a playbook I

would just like run away like I didn't know what to do and so like I'm sure I made a lot of mistakes but um like I think at a certain point I realized it's like okay I made this decision to be an actor on television and of course these people you know that means they like the show and like like be as gracious as you can you don't want to get stuck in a dangerous situation but i think like having a little bit like some of those like meditative practices um taking a deep breath and just really because it's scary when people i think the same thing i had this thing like when i was a kid people would look at me and laugh and be mean and so like i would the same feeling when everyone looks at you and so it would remind me of that so i'd be like they are looking at me because they're being mean even though they're cheering you on

yes but it felt the same so i think getting over that like was a, that was like a, that was like an aha moment. Like, oh my gosh, this reminds me of when I was a kid. Wow. People would be like, kind of bullyish to me. So it kind of triggered you emotionally. It would trigger me emotionally. And I was scared. Like, I would feel like I want to get out, you know.

Wow. But, but like now I, I don't see it that way at all. I feel like, oh my gosh, it's so nice. People come up and say hello. It's like, as long as my kids feel safe. Right, right. People are respectful. Yeah. Yeah It's like different thing. Where were you on that scale of self-love before that show took off and then after the show took off? I would actually it was it was funny because I would always joke about, like, ego fluctuation. Not like I had. I mean, I was, like, I always, like, had, like, a very strong sense of self that I know is me.

You know, it's like, this is me. I know it's me. But when you're that famous now, there's a different level of. But I would definitely. But then there's this, like, there's this, like's this like shift like when you get a perspective shift right where all of a sudden you're like woo like you were like micro and then macro those both perspective shifts can really throw off your feelings i wouldn't say i always loved like it sounds funny like i always loved myself i always felt like a good amount of, like, believing in myself and that kind of, I guess, self-love.

So on that scale, where were you before the show? I mean, I knew myself. And then, you know, and I'm still always, like, learning about myself. So then afterwards, I mean, again, like, you're thrown off by the shifts. But I still, like, knew who I was. That's great. You know? I mean, it's hard.

I think sometimes when, like, if somebody misunderstands me, that's the hardest thing. And that will throw me into a little bit of, like, spirally stuff. Like, if somebody, like, really misunderstands something I do, that feels really bad to me. That's the hardest thing. And that will throw me into a little bit of like, like spirally stuff. Like if somebody like really misunderstands something I do, that feels really bad to me. Um, I would say that's the hardest thing. The reason I asked this question is because so many people ask this too, before they kind of have a rise in success or money or fame, I asked them this question and they they a lot of people are always higher on the self-love scale before they take off in their career or business or following or whatever and then it drops a little bit afterwards but it sounds like you had a really good sense of self-identity i have a good sense of self-identity if nothing else

you are i know who i am who i am wow i'm very much like who i am i like had this i like made i like from the time i was little little wow but how did you learn to accept yourself when others were making fun of you it was hard yeah that's hard how did you learn not to adapt and change so others could like you that's a really and just stay the unique original person that you are well i think that was like my the struggle of my adolescence like was like being like you know and i did kind of like retreat a little bit into myself really like was trying to like follow what other people wanted for a long time and then i do think through acting actually through being a performer and and it was like

I ended up with the most success when I was like embracing who I am wow and so I think that kind of came early on so I knew that like I'm like oh when I let go and I'm not just going will they like me if I do that? You know, when I kind of am myself, I get, I am successful. More successful than being, especially as an actor, you kind of have to be a little bit uninhibited. You know? Sure, sure. So when you are yourself, you are successful.

Yeah. And you're constantly working. I associate it with success. Wow. I guess. That's beautiful. Even though if you're playing another character, you're constantly associated with success wow i guess that's beautiful even though if you're playing another character you're still being yourself you're still yourself in that character i mean like i know there are actors that like totally lose themselves but i'm sorry like even even the best actors you're still like i'm not going i don't recognize meryl streep she's the greatest actor

in the world probably but i still know it's her yeah of course she's still like you know and she can do incredible you know transformations but still i know it's her there's still that person in there and there's a reason why we like there's some essence that stays yes so we have to at least and then every actor is different there's some actors that don't go too far from who they are but we still love watching them you know we still love they're still great actors they're just they're not as transformative as you know some others what's um where you're at in this season of your life what's the vision you have now after you know 20 plus years of a lot of success and a lot of different genres yeah what are you excited about creating and developing moving forward personally professionally yeah i

um i still love acting and i still love doing music. I still love doing all the same stuff I liked when I was a kid. Like, I still get excited about it, you know. I still love doing that. I still, you know, I always think of being an actor as, like, you're a filmmaker. Like, we're just focused on a more micro thing. But, like, we're there to help get this made. And, again, I think I talked about value add before. But, like, am I a value add? Like, how I think I talked about value add before but like am I a value

add like like how could I be the most value add so so you're it's my job to be like on the film set helping the film get made however that is so it's kind of like that's fun for me you know I enjoy that work you know I still really love it and it, even though I'm a parent now and I have a wonderful relationship now and all kinds of things going on that are different than different phases of my life. But I still love doing it. It's amazing. It's so fun. This is a question I ask everyone at the end called the three truths. So imagine a hypothetical scenario.

Okay. You get to live as long as you want to live in this world. Okay. But it's your last day. Oh, okay. Many years away from here, it's your last day. And you get to create everything you want to create from this moment moving forward to that last day.

But for whatever reason in this hypothetical scenario, you have to take all of your work with you. Everything you've ever created, projects you've been a part of, this conversation, anything, your music, for whatever reason, we no longer have access to it in this world. Okay. But on this last day of life, you get to leave behind three lessons. Three things you know to be true about your life experiences that you would want to leave behind yeah what would be those three lessons or three truths that you would share with people if we didn't have anything else to be remembered by you okay um yes um i think I think being able to shift your perspective is one of the greatest strengths you can possibly have. And it's something you can practice.

That if you're not having fun in your work, you're doing the wrong thing. not having fun in your work, you're doing the wrong thing. And that you should always try to be 100% yourself. Those are good. Thank you. I like those. I like those. Be yourself, be original.

Yeah, be original. I love that. I want to acknowledge you, Zoe, for how you've been so consistent in your life and in your career and how you've been original. You've had a lot of fun. Like everything that I feel like I've seen you in and other people have seen you in, you have a lot of fun. Yes, I do. You bring out joy, laughter, love, and a range of emotions for people when they experience your art. Oh, thank you. So I want to acknowledge you for being a great artist,

constantly evolving as an artist, showing up and adding value, not just trying to take from every situation, showing up, loving yourself fully, and also contributing to others around you, and just really showing up with a beautiful heart. So I want to acknowledge you for... That's so sweet. Of course. Yeah, I want to acknowledge you for. That's so sweet.

Of course. Yeah, I want to acknowledge you for all that. Obviously, I don't know you that well, but from what I've witnessed of you and the work that you've created, you bring a lot of love and joy. That's really nice. Thank you so much.

I took that in. Good, good. I'm glad you did. Final question. Zoe, what is your definition of greatness? Definition of greatness. I actually think it's I mean I think when you can be humble and recognize the things that you don't know and where you can learn and how you can be better for me that's like a state of greatness

because you are you're not saying I'm done here. You're saying I'm still, I'm just getting started. I'm still working on it. I have many places I want to go. And of course I don't know everything who could. I hope today's episode inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a rundown of today's show with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me, as well as ad-free listening experience, make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel on Apple Podcast.

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