The Secret World of Roald Dahl - In Pursuit

Episode Date: February 9, 2026

After a brief introduction at a mutual friend’s dinner party, Dahl falls madly in love with Oscar-winning actress Patricia Neal. He’s determined to win her over, but soon discovers a giant, immovable obstacle in his path. Namely, she’s still in love with the biggest movie star in the world. Eventually, Neal and Dahl build a life together. But can their relationship survive as her career soars into the stratosphere, while his comes crashing down to Earth?    Follow "The Secret World of Roald Dahl": Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secretworldpod/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SecretWorldPod/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@secretworldpod YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@SecretWorldPod X: https://x.com/SecretWorld_Pod See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Hello, gorgeous. It's Lala Kent. Host of Untraditionally Lala. My days of filling up cups at sir may be over, but I'm still loving life in the valley. Live on the other side of the hill is giving grown-up vibes, but over here on my podcast, Untraditionally Lala,

I'm still that Lala you either love or love to hate. It's unruly, it's unruly, unafraid, it's untraditionally Lala. Listen to Untraditionally Lala on the IHartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you. get your podcast. Most people out here think that taking care of one another is important. And most people would step up for a neighbor going through a tough time. Most people around here help out friends and family when they need it. But the funny thing is, most of us won't look for help when we need it.

Talk to someone if you're struggling with mental health because most people out here really care. Find more information at loveyourmindtay.org. That's loveyourmindtay.org. Brought to you by the Hunsman Mental Health Institute and the Ad Council. Now everybody over here? Oh, it's one of my other favorite places. The Twilight Gazebo. Sunset Gardens. Twilight gazebo.

What's next? Dead man's grove? Mom, could you please try to be a little bit positive about this? From Kenya Barris, the visionary creator of Blackish, comes Big Age, an audible original about finding your way in life's next chapter. This audio comedy series follows a retired couple's reluctant relocation to Sunset Gardens, a Floridian senior community that is anything but relaxing. Starring Comedy Legends Jennifer Lewis, Cedric the Entertainer, and Nisi Nashvettes.

Through its blend of outrageous comedy, key party anyone, and touching revelations, big age explores what it means to grow older without growing old at heart. Go to audible.com slash big age series to start listening today. I'm Kristen Davis. host of the podcast, Are You a Charlotte? In 1998, my life was forever changed when I took on the role of Charlotte York on a new show called Sex and the City. Now I get to sit down with some of my favorite people and relive all of the incredible moments this show brought us on and off the screen. Listen to Are You a Charlotte on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

In your book, you said that you didn't love him when you married him. I did not when I married him. This is Patricia Neal. The movie star Roald Dahl met at the end of our last episode, talking about the beginning of their relationship later in life on the Arlene Herson show. It's just that I desperately wanted to have children. And, of course, one had to be married in those days to have children. And I decided that I would marry Rualdahl because he would make good children for me.

Okay, we're going to take a break. And so begins the defining relationship of doll's life, one that's going to last 30 years and produce five children. Get ready. As noisy and epic as you think dolls professional and social lives have been so far, it is nothing compared to the intensity of what you're about to hear in his family life. For my hard podcast, Imagine Entertainment, and Parallax. I'm Aaron Tracy, and this is the secret world of Roll Doll.

Episode 4 Let's pick up just before Dahl meets Patricia Neal. It's 1952. Dahl is now 36 years old. He's already lived so many lives. The businessman, the fighter pilot, the spy, the screenwriter. The question is, now what? He decides to try making a living at the craft he's had some sporadic success with.

It's the next mask he's going to put on. He's going to become a great novelist, or die-trying. Keep in mind, this is many years before Dahl's success with James Bond. Right now, he's desperate to write important fiction, like his hero, Hemingway. Doll can feel the talent inside of himself. He's bursting with creativity and ambition. Only when he's writing does he feel the kind of transcendence that exists nowhere else in his life. Doll has already had a little success with short stories,

like the one that got Walt Disney and Eleanor Roosevelt's attention. So he builds himself a writing office in his small bachelor apartment and spends all day, every day, working on his craft. Like a lot of people determined to go into the creative arts, he's throwing himself into it, body and soul, which, of course, is not necessarily the right move. The life of a writer is a life of rejection, even for those who are most successful.

It's basically an exercise in daily humiliations. So if you make writing your whole identity, you're going to be in big trouble. Speaking from personal experience, before I got married and started a family, anytime I would fail with a TV pitch or a pilot not getting picked up, it would be an earthquake. You've got to have balance in your life. Right now, Dahl has none.

My grandfather used to say, you marry the person you're dating at the age you want to be married, which I always found pretty cynical. I'm more of a romantic at heart, and I think Dahl is too. He's in his mid-30s, and he's majorly resisted settling down. The guy has dated some of the most glamorous, most influential women on the planet. So part of the reason he's still single is that his bar is high. And Dahl, like I said, is a romantic. He doesn't want to marry someone unless he feels that transcendent feeling.

His mentor, Charles Marsh, has been pleading with him to just settle on someone already. He tells Dahl that his lack of a wife and his lack of success with writing are inextricably linked. Finding a wife will focus him. It'll give him a reason to work and to be successful. And if he needs to, Marsh whispers, he can always have. an affair, or a series of affairs down the line. Awfully cynical, but also sadly common for the era. For evidence, see Marsh and pretty much every other person we've talked about in this series

so far. Dahl is reluctant. Not only does he want the spark, but he worries a wife will take time and focus away from his writing, which is where his passion really lies at the moment. But soon, he has to admit to himself, all the time and focus he's putting into his writing isn't really yielding results. He's submitting his stories to every magazine, every publisher, every agent he can get an address for,

but the rejections are piling up. They're almost eye-level with his 6-foot-6 frame. The guy grows monumentally depressed, and he has to admit he is pretty lonely. Maybe Marsh is right. Maybe my grandfather is right. Maybe a wife won't be a distraction. She'll be a motivator.

So, Dahl finally determines he's going to find one. The mask of the writer will have to wait. It's time to see how husband and father fit. As I mentioned, Dahl first meets Neil on a Manhattan dinner party, thrown by playwright Lillian Hellman. Dahl is unusually nervous at the party. For one thing, Helman is a much more successful writer than he is.

She's someone he really wants to impress. He's so uneasy that he ends up getting into a screaming match with another guest. A guest who happens to be Leonard Bernstein, the world-famous composer. These two really go at it. And just when Dahl is most worked up, that's when he realizes that Helman has decided to play matchmaker.

She's seated him next to a 26-year-old who he recognizes for magazine covers. It's not an exaggeration to say she's one of the most beautiful women in the world. Neil has already acted in major Broadway plays, winning a Tony for one that Helman wrote, but Dahl recognizes her from the movies. Hollywood, of course, has snapped Neil up and decided to make her a star. She's now one of those incredibly rare actresses who gets critical praise and Big box office. She's like the Amy Adams of her time, reddish hair at all. As we've heard, Doll is no stranger to dating movie stars. But this one's different. Neil is a force.

Watching some of her old films, it's easy to see why she's so in demand. Whenever she's on screen, she forces you to look at her. When she moves, your eyes move with her, no matter which other huge movie stars are in the frame. And it's the same in real life. Doll is so nervous looking at her in the chair next to his. It's one of the few times in his life he's actually tongue-tied. He decides he can't just hit on her like every guy she meets. That won't make him stand out. He does some quick calculations in his head and comes up with an ingenious idea right there on the spot.

Here's what he'll do. He'll totally and completely ignore her. Throughout the entire dinner, Dahl focuses on Leonard Bernstein, pretending Neil is an empty chair, even when she tries to involve herself in their argument. But that doesn't mean he's not entirely focused on Neil. He's observing her, watching how she carries herself,

taking mental notes and storing them away for future use, like he does with everything that intrigues him. By the time entrees are served, Dahl's mind is made up. He's found his wife. There's just one problem. The next morning, he calls Lillian Hellman and gets Neil's phone number. He hangs up, and like a nervous 15-year-old with sweaty palms,

he dials her. He clears his throat several times, smooths out his hair, takes a deep breath. It's so unlike him to be anything but confident and calm approaching a woman. He kind of likes this new feeling, though. His juices are flowing in a way they usually don't. When Neil answers, he doesn't make small talk. He barely tells her who's calling.

He just jumps in and asks her to dinner. Remembering how incredibly rude he was to her the night before, Neil can't compute this. She takes a pause long enough to light a cigarette, rejects him outright, and then hangs up. But of course, rejection doesn't really bother, doll. Remember how many times he's going to fail in Hollywood before James Bond comes around?

Same thing here. He's decided this is what he wants. This is the rare woman he can actually imagine committing to. But all his suavness and swagger elude him. Doll waits two days and calls Neil again and asks her out again. She says no again. She decided at the dinner party that doll was, someone not to know. He can't believe it.

It honestly never occurred to him that she might reject him. It's just not how life has gone for him so far. It reminds me of the story of the story. story my favorite director, Mike Nichols, tells about casting the graduate. He wanted his main character, Benjamin Braddock, to realistically be someone who strikes out with women his own age, which leads him to have an affair with his mother's friend, Mrs. Robinson. Nichols auditioned Robert Redford for the role. Giving him direction, he said to Redford, you know how it feels when a girl turns you down for a date? Redford responded, what do you mean? That's when they turned instead to Dustin

Hoffman, who created one of the more iconic performances ever. Like Redford, dolled doesn't get rejected. He's been bouncing between actresses, heiresses, and congresswoman for a decade. And now he can't even get a date. What is happening? Two days later, he shamelessly calls Neil again. And this third time, she rejects him again and orders him to stop calling her. But on Doll's fourth attempt, Neil surprises him by agreeing to go out one time. Has Doll just worn her down? Sort of. But the truth is, Neil has a much bigger reason for finally saying yes. She's desperate to do anything she can to get over the greatest heartbreak of her life.

As Doll and Neil start dating, this is the big obstacle in their path. Neil is still very much in love with someone else. And annoyingly for Doll, not just anyone. The most famous, most handsome, biggest movie star in the world, Gary Cooper. Come in. Neil has recently co-starred with Cooper in two movies, almost back to back. Why didn't you come to set the marble? I didn't think it'd make any difference to you. Who came? Or did it, Ms. Franco? Neil was 21. Cooper was 46. It's possible you're having trouble

picturing Cooper right now. Very few of his movies are still talked about today. Mostly, it's his heroic sheriff in High Noon, who refuses to run away from trouble. Won't be here to tomorrow. Seems to me I've got to stay. Anyway, I'm the same man with or without this. Well, that isn't so. But back in mid-century America, Gary Cooper was it. Cooper is nominated for the Best Actor Oscar five times. That's the same number as Tom Hanks and Al Pacino and Robert De Niro. Cooper wins twice.

He's also just about the most stylish man in Hollywood, an observation immortalized by Irving Berlin when he revised his song, Putin on the Ritz. Dressed up like a million-dollar trooper, Trying hard to look like Gary Cooper Super-duper Billy Wilder, who once directed Cooper opposite Audrey Hepburn, says Cooper was the most elegant man that ever lived.

Neil was completely over-the-top in love with him, despite his being more than twice her age, and, oh yeah, there was one other problem. He was married. Here's Neil explaining to Arlene Herson again. Did that bother you? Well, of course it did, but I was so stupid. stupid at that in those days of my life, I didn't know that I should have had respect for marriage

and left him alone, you know. When one's young, you want what you want when you want it, and you can get into bad trouble that way. A giant understatement. The relationship nearly kills Neil. When it ends, she actually asks a friend how to commit suicide. This is when she meets Roald Dahl. He can see how tormented she is. She was obviously pretty pretty, be shaken up all around, he says. She had come to New York primarily to get away from an unfortunate romance. So what should Dahl do? What would you do? Walk away? Problem is, he just can't shake the feeling that this is his one chance for happiness and stability. He puts on an all-out charm offensive, the same way he went over William Stevenson and Charles Marsh and C.S. Forrester and Franklin

and Eleanor Roosevelt. But it's just not working on Neil. If you read Neil, where she's shockingly vulnerable and open, it's actually a great read. She talks constantly about how devastated she was over the Cooper breakup. The number of times she mentions him is pretty astonishing considering she was with someone else, namely, doll, 10 times longer than she was with Cooper. Her relationship with Cooper has enough highs and lows to be its own tragic love story podcast. Well, what's a man going to do when he falls in love with a girl?

That's Cooper in my favorite of his movies, Ernst Lubitsch's Bluebeard's eighth wife. And if he finds he's made a mistake, carry on behind her back, lie, make excuses, not me. If only Cooper took his character's advice to heart. I think that's immoral. In the movie, Cooper keeps falling in and out of love. But he does the kind of weirdly honest and maybe even noble thing. When he meets someone new, he divorces his current wife and marries her. When the film begins, he's been married and divorced seven times.

In real life, though, Cooper stayed married during his affairs, which is even messier. The passion between Neil and Cooper was always running at a 10. We had reached a depth of real appreciation that all people desire, but few realize. Neil writes in her memoir. He truly loved my body, and I loved his, and he knew it. When he reached out to love me, it was first with those penetrating eyes, which stripped away all barriers between us, and then with those God-like hands, which seemed to create me.

In his arms, I thought, I am. At last, I am. Yeah, so if you missed it, that's Neil adopting the biblical creation story as a metaphor for sex with Cooper. I'm telling you, find yourself somebody who looks at you the way Patricia Neal looks at Gary Cooper. Since Cooper is married with a family, Neil continues dating other guys, if for no other reason, than to have something to do on weekends. She starts dating Kirk Douglas, the handsome star of Spartacus and Ace in the Hole. Neil writes, we would sometimes come back to my apartment for a drink,

but there was never anything between us but good night kisses. Until one night, night, I was feeling low. I had had a few drinks, and let's face it, Kirk was very attractive. I found myself responding to his extremely persuasive kisses. But when it came right down to it, and it did, I simply couldn't. After he left, the doorbell rang, and an unexpected Gary Cooper was standing on the threshold. A strange cloud darkened his face. I looked into your window tonight, he told her, and I saw what was happening. She continues, nothing had really happened at all, But I was impressed by this outburst of jealousy, which was so unlike Gary. I could feel myself starting to smile.

Suddenly, Gary slapped me. I felt the sting of pain shoot through my nose. My hand sprang to my face to soothe the blow. I looked into my palm and saw blood, then back into Gary's shocked eyes. Baby, I'm sorry. Let's just forget about it, he said. There's a lot there. Stalking, spying, assault.

And then, to add insult to injury, right on its heels, comes another wound. This one from another woman. A girl, actually. One morning, Neil's agent drives her to meet Cooper, who's waiting in his truck for her. Gary did not jump out as he normally did to open the door, Neil writes in her memoir. I got him beside him. When I saw his face, my blood turned to ice. Before I could say anything, I heard someone approach, and as I looked at the window, Rocky and Maria passed into my view. Rocky is the nickname everyone calls Gary Cooper's wife. Maria is their young daughter. Maria's face is stained with tears. The child looks at me, Neil says, and spits on the ground. Such a little girl, and she spits with so much hate. Gary explains he

had told his wife about the affair. When Rocky asked him if he was in love with Neil, he admitted to her he was. Rocky then told their daughter, which I'm sorry, but that sucks. I'm not defending Cooper, and I have a lot of sympathy for Rocky, but telling your young daughter that her dad has having an affair is such a lame choice. Getting spit out by this little girl really screws with Neil's head. But I guess not enough, because it doesn't stop her from doing the exact same thing with her own daughter 25 years later when she discovers that doll has been having his own affair. It's like people run out of original ways to hurt each other.

After that awful encounter, a lot of people would have ended the affair. Not Neil and Cooper. They don't even try that hard to conceal it anymore. After hearing Cooper star in a radio play, for instance, Neil sends him a wire to tell him how fabulous he was. The next day, she gets a wire back. It reads, in all caps, I have had just about enough of you.

You had better stop now, or you will be sorry. Signed, Mrs. Gary Cooper. Can you imagine getting a letter like that? You will be sorry? It's like out of a bad daytime TV show. And it takes a certain kind of personality to get that letter and just throw it in the trash and keep on trucking. But soon, things get much more complicated for Neil and Cooper.

This is Saigon, the story of my family and of the country that shaped us. The United States will not stand by and allow any power, however great, take over another country. From My Heart Podcasts, Saigon. Please allow me to introduce Joseph Sherman. You don't think I'm serious about a free Vietnam? I should stop talking so much. I like hearing you talk. One city, a divided country.

and the war that tore America apart. This is for Vietnam. I've taken a hit from Japanese ground fire. They're pouring petrol all over him. He's holding matches. I'm on a landmine. Or freedom. Let's get out.

Freedom from Vietnam. Run! Saigon, starring Kelly Marie Tran and Rob Benedict. Sting, here's madness. The world should hear about this. There's a fire coming to this country, and it's going to burn out everything. Listen to Saigon on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello, gorgeous, it's Lala Kent, host of Untraditionally Lala. My days of filling up Cupsett, sir, may be over, but I'm still loving life in the valley. Live on the other side of the hill is giving grown-up vibes, but over here on my podcast, Untraditionally Lala, I'm still that Lala you either love or love to hate. I've been full on oversharing with fans, family, and former frenemies like Tom Schwartz. I had a little bone to pick with Schwartzie when he came on the pod. You don't feel bad that you told me I was a bootleg housewife? I almost flipped a pizza in your lap.

Oh my God, I literally forgot about that until just now. Sorry, I don't want to blame alcohol. I got to blame that one on the alcohol. This is about laughing and learning when life just keeps on life in. Because I make mistakes so that you guys don't have to. We're growing, we're thriving, and yes, sometimes we're barely surviving, but we do it all with love. It's unruly, it's unafraid, it's untraditional. Untraditionally Lala. Listen to Untraditionally Lala on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

Most people out here think that taking care of one another is important. And most people would step up for a neighbor going through a tough time. Most people around here help out friends and family when they need it. But the funny thing is, most of us won't look for help when we need it. Talk to someone if you're struggling with mental health. Because most people out here really care. Find more information at loveyourmindtay.org. That's loveyourmindtay.org. Brought to you by the Huntsman Mental Health Institute and the Ad Council. Now everybody over here? Oh, it's one of my other favorite places.

The Twilight Gazebo. Sunset Gardens. Twilight gazebo. What's next? Dead man's grove? Mom, could you please try to be a little bit positive about this? From Kenya Barris, the visionary creator of Blind Blackish, comes Big Age, an audible original about finding your way in life's next chapter.

This audio comedy series follows a retired couple's reluctant relocation to Sunset Gardens, a Floridian senior community that is anything but relaxing. Starring Comedy Legends Jennifer Lewis, Cedric the Entertainer, and Niecy Nashvettes. Through its blend of outrageous comedy, key party anyone? And touching revelations, Big Age explores what it means to grow older without growing old at heart. go to audible.com slash big age series to start listening today. And I decided then that I would never, ever, ever get in that kind of situation again. Here's Neil again with Arlene Herson.

You mean involved with the married man? And I didn't. But you also became pregnant. Now, people talk about abortion. In those days, it wasn't. It was forbidden. Nobody talked about it. Oh, it was horrifying, you know, and it really was.

but, you know, you didn't mention it to a soul and you had to do this horrendous thing. In other interviews, Neil basically says Cooper forced her to have the abortion. Decades later, she says if she had only one thing to do over in her life, she would have had that baby. And you've got to wonder, if she had, would she and Doll still have gotten together? Would he have been ready to be a stepfather to Gary Cooper's love child?

I don't know. But soon after the abortion, Neil and Cooper break. it off for the last time. In Hollywood terms, Neil writes in her memoir, he was not going to pick up my option. That's literally how she phrases it. When I read that in her book, I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. Neil decides she needs to get the hell out of L.A., so she moves to New York and meets Dahl. But for the first many years of their relationship, they're just not alone. Cooper's presence is there too. It really screws Dahl up, which is a little surprising. Dahl always had a thing for dating women who've just broken up with, or are currently married to,

famous, powerful men. Remember the French actress Annabella? She was married to movie star Tyrone Power while dating Dahl. Or Claire Boutthluse, who was married to one of the most influential men of the century. Doll also dated Phyllis Brooks, an actress in a relationship with Mr. Swoff himself, Carrie Grant. But this was different. For whatever reason, this was the first time that Dahl really felt inadequate in comparison to the other man. Probably didn't help that Cooper was good buddies with Dahl's writing hero, Hemingway.

It messed with Dahl's confidence. And I get it. When I was in my 20s, a young movie star flirted with my girlfriend at lunch in L.A., and I couldn't sleep for a week. So how the hell is Dahl going to get over this giant obstacle standing in the way of his being able to finally get married, settle down, start a family? His reaction is to follow Neil around like a pathetic puppy dog. Neil is rehearsing a play when she begins dating Dahl.

Dahl hangs around the empty theater every day, then nips back to her dressing room. When the play opens, he goes to almost every performance, clapping wildly, then taking her out for supper afterwards, or to a party with her friends. The man who seduced his way across D.C. and New York has become a clingy, needy boyfriend. To understand why Dahl is acting this way, why he's so sure Neil is the only woman for him, and he has to fight for her, I've got to tell you a little more about her. Honestly, she's amazing. When she was 20, the age when people are acting in bad college productions of experimental theater, Neil was already on Broadway. She won all the major awards as Best Broadway Actress of 1946,

which directly led to famous mustachioed movie mogul Jack Warner signing her to a long-term contract. The new Garbo, Warner repeated over and over to anyone that would listen. Neil goes on to make over 30 films in her career, but the two I deeply love are HUD and Breakfast at Tiffany's. In HUD, she plays a long-suffering housekeeper, abused by young Paul Newman. She's incredible with it, so strong while so vulnerable, and goes toe-to-toe with Newman, which is not an easy task. She wins the Oscar for it.

In Tiffany's, Neil plays opposite another legend, Audrey Hepburn. Again, not easy, especially when she's playing Audrey's competition for the male lead. When Doll first meets Neil, she hasn't yet made either of these movies. Instead, Dahl recognizes her from the day the Earth stood still, an iconic early sci-fi film. It's playing in a theater within walking distance of Lillian Helmand's apartment, the night they're seated next to each other. Neil's look is also really singular.

She has this rich, reddish hair, very unusual in Hollywood at the time. She's a broad 5'8, a full 45 inches taller than the biggest stars, like Elizabeth Taylor and Marilyn Monroe. It gives her authority. She looks like someone you wouldn't want to mess with, which, remember, is exactly dolls type. But Neil doesn't seem unapproachable, like Taylor or Monroe. She feels sort of relatable, even in a film like Tiffany's, where she's a

wealthy, sharky New Yorker. And she always stands out for how naturalistic she is. Her contemporaries lean into melodrama, with that very formal, often very phony, mid-Atlantic accent. You know the one I'm talking about. Think Catherine Hepburn in the Philadelphia story. You seem quite contemptuous of me all of a sudden. Not Neil. She's a method actor, trained at the actor's studio under Elyle. Kizan, along with Newman, Montgomery Clift, and James Dean. She's also just obviously brilliant. You can tell from watching her on screen how smart she is,

same way you can tell with Emma Thompson or Jody Foster or Sershara Ronan. Neil also has this really husky, smoky voice, which gives her characters so much gravitas. And the way she's able to shift her voice from tough to vulnerable within the same exchange offers layers to all her characters, like in this scene from HUD. I was married to head for six years. The only thing he was ever good for was to scratch my back where I couldn't reach you.

You still got that edge? Off and not. So, how is Dahl going to convince Neil to forget about her dreamy ex and marry him? He's kind of hoping sex will do the trick. One of Rold Dahl's great assets, Neil writes in her memoir, was his desire never to leave a female unfulfilled. I learned that in the art of making love, Rold was a master. And believe me, at this point in my life, I was not easy to reach.

One day during their court, on a perfect autumn afternoon during a stroll through Midtown Manhattan, doll works up the courage, turns to Neil, and abruptly asks her to marry him. Her response? Oh, no. Seriously, that's what she said. She opens up about the moment more in her autobiography. It's simple, I thought to myself.

I really don't love Roald, and I don't want to get married. But then, that was not entirely true. I did want marriage and a family. Roald would have beautiful children. What was I holding out for? A great love? That would never come again. When was I going to face reality? Isn't that every married person's worst fear? That their spouse might have been thinking that when they were proposed to? But the guy won't give up. He's as persistent about this as he is about everything in his life.

And the next time he asks, she acquiesces. He's worn her down. The poor guy isn't yet the writer he'll become. He can't even afford a ring for Neil. As always, Charles Marsh comes to the rescue. providing doll with a diamond. Doll and Neil decide to get married to Trinity Church at the intersection of Broadway and Wall Street in Lower Manhattan, a towering Gothic revival built in the late 1600s. Famous New Yorkers like Alexander Hamilton are buried right out front.

It's so hot on July 2nd, 1953, the day of the wedding, that doll rips the lining right out of his brand new suit when he wakes up that morning. Can't you just picture Neil laughing at that? Just laying in bed, summer suns, streaming through the slits in the window, shades, her wedding day, gazing up at this tall, handsome man she's about to marry as he towers over her clumsily struggling with his new suit. I'll bet she was glowing. Maybe she's even forgotten to think about Gary Cooper. And Dahl must have been optimistic about the future too, excited to finally have reached this new stage of his life, a new kind of adventure. Neither one had any idea

of the utter tragedy and heartbreak that would come from this marriage, or the incredible world-beating successes that would result from it. Neither Dahl nor Neal invite their families to the wedding. They want to keep it small. From personal experience, I think the wedding industrial complex is practically criminal, especially in New York, and I don't blame anyone who chooses to abstain from it. But why no loved ones? It's not like this is each of their third or fourth marriages or something. This is the first marriage for both. At least Charles Marsh is invited. He did provide the ring, after all. He's Dahl's best man. It's also a bad sign that either bride nor groom remembered to arrange for any music.

And then, in a really bad sign, here's what we know Neil was thinking during the ceremony when asked the big question, do you take this man? We know because she writes about it later. She says she thought to herself, I had been through my great passionate love. Life was more than that.

That night, they go home, bags of leftover food under their arms, smiles still plastered to their faces, both a little drunk. They take off their fancy clothes, climb into bed, doll switches off the light and softly says to his new wife,

I love you. Neil feels tears come to her eyes. They roll down her cheeks in the dark silence. I could feel my heartbreaking, she later writes. I so wanted to be married, but to another man.

And doll telling his bride that he loves her just now, you know, on their wedding night, it will be one of only three times he ever says that to her over the next 30 years. The start of doll and Neil's marriage, goes about as well as you're picturing.

Actors congregate together, you know, Dahl writes to a friend. They're not like writers. They're in our apartment all the time, pushing and swarming around. It's me against the lot of them. Soon after the wedding, maybe partly because of all the flighty actors hanging around, doll starts to wonder if maybe he's just not cut out for marriage. He may have made a mistake. He even tells this to kneel in bed one night,

then rolls over and goes to sleep. He doesn't bring it up again for years. This is Saigon, the story of my family and of the country that shaped us. The United States will not stand by and allow any power, however great, take over another country. From My Heart Podcasts, Saigon. Please allow me to introduce Joseph Sherman. You don't think I'm serious about a free Vietnam? I should stop talking so much.

I like hearing you talk. One city, a divided country, and the war that tore America apart. This is for Vietnam. I've taken a hit. from Japanese ground fire. Do you rate me? They're pouring petrol all over him. He's holding matches.

I'm on a landmine. Or free time. Let's get out. Freedom. Mom, man. Run! Saigon, starring Kelly Marie Tran and Rob Benedict. Sting, here's madness.

The world should hear about this. There's a fire coming to this country and it's going to burn out everything. Listen to Saigon on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, gorgeous, it's Lala Kent. Host of Untraditionally Lala. My days of filling up cups at sir may be over,

but I'm still loving life in the valley. Life on the other side of the hill is giving grown-up vibes, but over here on my podcast, Untraditionally Lala, I'm still that Lala you either love or love to hate. I've been full on over sharing with fans, family, and former frenemies like Tom Schwartz. I had a little bone to pick with Shortsy when he came on the pod. You don't feel bad that you told me I was a bootleg housewife?

I almost flipped a piece. pizza in your lap. Oh my God. I literally forgot about that until just now. Sorry, I don't want to blame alcohol. I got to blame that one on the alcohol. This is about laughing and learning when life just keeps on life in. Because I make mistakes so that you guys don't have to.

We're growing, we're thriving. And yes, sometimes we're barely surviving. But we do it all with love. It's unruly. It's unruly, it's un-traditionally la-la. Listen to Untraditionally Lala on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Most people out here think that taking care of one another is important.

And most people would step up for a neighbor going through a tough time. Most people around here help out friends and family when they need it. But the funny thing is, most of us won't look for help when we need it. Talk to someone if you're struggling with mental health. Because most people out here really care. Find more information at loveyourmindtay.org. That's loveyourmindtay.org. Brought to you by the Huntsman Mental Health Institute and the ad council.

Now everybody over here? Oh, it's one of my other favorite places. The Twilight Gazebo. Sunset Gardens. Twilight Gazebo. What's next? Dead Man's Grove? Mom, could you please try to be a little bit positive about this? From Kenya Barris, the visionary creator of Blackish, comes Big Age, an audible original about finding your way in life's next chapter. This audio comedy series follows a retired couple's reluctant relocation to Sunset Gardens, a Floridian senior community that is anything but relaxing. starring comedy legends Jennifer Lewis, Cedric the Entertainer, and Nisi Nashvettes. Through its blend of outrageous comedy, key party anyone, and touching revelations,

Big Age explores what it means to grow older without growing old at heart. Go to audible.com slash big age series to start listening today. I have to think one reason doll resisted domestically for so long, and then has so much trouble with it when he finally commits, stems from his previous life as a spy. I mean, there's a reason James Bond doesn't settle down, right? Leaving espionage and war behind, re-entering the normal world, it's nearly impossible.

To distract himself from his difficult domestic life, doll goes back to his real love, his writing. Maybe now he can finally focus. He churns out short story after short story, but still hasn't quite found his voice. I talk about this issue with my creative writing students at Yale all the time. More than almost anything else, more than the ability to write witty dialogue or construct a sound plot or an interesting scene, the way to get hired as a writer

is to show you have a distinct, compelling voice. Think about any of your favorite writers. Quentin Tarantino, Joan Didion, Aaron Sorkin, or Tony Morrison, they all have incredibly distinct voices. You wouldn't confuse even a single page of any of those writers' works with someone else's. At this moment in his career, Dahl thinks his His voice is that of a sophisticated New Yorker, someone whose stories are at home in the New Yorker magazine. This is the world he's living in with Patricia Neal, the one where playwright Clifford Odette's lives upstairs, and they go to dinner parties with Lillian Hellman and Leonard Bernstein. But this just isn't Dahl's natural voice.

He hasn't found it yet. Charles Marsh does not agree. He thinks the problem with Dahl's career is the discord in his marriage. Dahl has told Marsh that Neil is hanging out with her theater friends way too much. she isn't serving his needs enough. Marsh seems to completely understand, writing back with a line that feels ripped out of madmen. You want a woman to think of you 80% of the time,

and to work like hell on the 80% without asking you for direction. He invites Dahlaneal to Jamaica, where they can work on the marriage. Marsh brings along his newest, youngest wife yet, Claudia, who, you'll be shocked to learn, used to be his secretary. Yeah, just when you think Marsh can't be any more of a mid-century cliche, the guy marries his secretary. In Jamaica, Marsh gives Dahl and Neil a good talking to about finding compromise in their relationship.

Why he thinks they would respect his opinion on marriage is anybody's guess. But Dahl takes it to heart. One reason is the last advice he's ever going to get from Marsh. On this trip to Jamaica, Marsh is bitten by a mosquito and contract cerebral malaria, setting off a decline in health from which he'll never fully recover. For Dahl, it's like losing the only father he's ever known. He's inconsolable, and it's the first in a long line of tragedies that will unfold

over the next few years. Another obstacle for Dahl and Neil is the fact that unlike almost all marriages in this period, Neil is making way more money than her husband. It makes Dahl feel totally inadequate, which Neil does sympathize with, so she sets out to become more like the kind of wife Dahl wants, which, sadly, is a doting, cooking, cleaning, obedient one. Take a guess how well that's going to go. After a while, Dahl does at least partially accept the reality that Neil is not his mother. She's not going to anticipate his every need. And she's just objectively way more successful than he is. He lowers his expectations of her cooking and cleaning. Okay? Good for him, I guess. For her part, Neil hands over all control of her finances to Dull,

which sort of works for a while. Giving him control of the money, achieves an instantaneous lessening of tension in the marriage, she says. And if that doesn't sound like the 1950s, I don't know what does. As the marriage goes on, Neil continues her wild rise in Hollywood. She stars in some seminal films of the era, like Elia Kazan's a face in the crowd. I always should have been an equal partner. Well, now I'm going to be an equal partner. I want to get something I deserve.

And she does. Tons of success. But while Neil is on the way up, Dahl's writing career stalls again. The New Yorker has not accepted a story by Dahl. for five years. Frustrated, he spends two years writing a play. But this is the era of big musicals, like Damn Yankees and My Fair Lady.

Dahl's dark character drama isn't what audiences want. In fact, though he'd never admit it, the show may have only gotten picked up because of who he was married to. But Dahl is committed to it. Here's how committed to it he is. He misses the birth of their first child because he's on tour with the play in Boston.

And while he does manage to get the play a Broadway run, it's an instant flop. Neil, on the other hand, gets nominated for Best Actress. She continues to be the name in this family. And while I mention that Dahl skip their daughter's birth to be with his play on the road, Neil basically does the exact opposite. She skips the Academy Awards

because she's pregnant and chooses not to travel. In fact, she sleeps through the show. Hollywood's big night, Gregory Peck names the best actress. Christian Neil. Annabella accepts for Patricia Neal, who is in London. It's a triumph for Miss Neal who was awakened in the night to hear the good news. Did you catch that? Accepting the Oscar on Neil's behalf is Doll's old girlfriend, Annabella.

Imagine how that conversation might have gone. A very uncharitable reading would be that doll is so insecure about his wife winning the Oscar, while he's struggling in his own career, that he not only encourages her to stay home, but when she thinks about who should accept the Oscar on her behalf if she wins, he insists on his ex-girlfriend who could use a moment in the spotlight. Man, this marriage. Dahl and Neil's first child, Olivia, comes two years after their meeting at Lillian Helmand's party.

Tessa comes next, two years later, then Theo three years after that. And then four years later, Ophelia and Lucy. Five children. According to writer Matthew Dennison, Neil initially struggles as a mother. At one point, she hands one of the kids over to her sister-in-law for several weeks, which is the kind of thing you read in a biography and are like, oh, there's an issue there. But step back for a second. She has five kids, five, and not that far apart in age.

I don't know anyone with more than three children. Five must feel like 500. And she has a giant career. Let's give the lady a break. By all accounts, it does seem that doll is doing his share with the kids, or at least his share for a father in that era. With all the negative things Neil has to say about her husband and her memoir, and there's a lot. She really does have nice things to say about him as a father.

After their rocky start, Dahl and Neil slowly settle into family life. They develop a nice routine, both continuing to work hard, relying on nannies, and totally smitten with their kids. Neil, despite her body in a constant state of creation and recovery, works a ton, making her three greatest movies, in fact. Life is good. They've settled into a rhythm. But the biggest tragedy of Doll's life is about to occur, followed by another, followed by one more, all involving the brain.

And it's followed by an epic amount of career success. It's the stuff of TV melodrama, which it's actually about to become. Doll has been tested many times over the years, but this next period of his life is going to be way more intense than anything. It also may be what turns him into the writer he was always meant to be. The Secret World of Roll Doll is produced by Imagine Audio and Parallax Studios for IHard podcasts. Created and written by me, Aaron Tracy. Produced by Matt Schrader. Post-production by Windhill Studios with editing, scoring, and sound design by Mark Henry Phillips.

Editing by Ryan Seton. Music by APM. Executive producers, Nathan Clokey, Cara Welker, Brian Grazer, Ron Howard, and Aaron Tracy. Additional voice performances and recreation by Mark Henry Phillips and 11 Labs. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to rate and review the secret world of Roll Dahl on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Copyrate, 26, Imagine Entertainment, IHeartMedia, and Parallax. Hello, gorgeous, it's Lala Kent, host of Untraditionally Lala. My days of filling up cups at Sir may be over, but I'm still loving life in the valley. Life on the other side of the hill is giving

grown-up vibes, but over here on my podcast, Untraditionally Lala, I'm still that Lala you either love or love to hate. It's unruly, it's unafraid, it's untraditionally Lala. Listen to Untraditionally Lala on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Most people out here think that taking care of one another is important. And most people would step up for a neighbor going through a tough time. Most people around here help out friends and family when they need it. But the funny thing is, Most of us won't look for help when we need it. Talk to someone if you're struggling with mental health. Because most people out here really care.

Find more information at loveyourmindtay.org. That's loveyourmindtay.org. Brought to you by the Huntsman Mental Health Institute and the Ad Council. Now everybody over here? Oh, it's one of my other favorite places. The Twilight Gazebo. Sunset Gardens, Twilight Gazebo. What's next?

Dead Man's Grove? Mom, could you please try to be a little bit positive about this? From Kenya Barris, the visionary creator of Blackish, comes Big Age, an audible original about finding your way in life's next chapter. This audio comedy series follows a retired couple's reluctant relocation to sunset gardens, a Floridian senior community that is anything but relaxing. Starring Comedy Legends Jennifer Lewis, Cedric the Entertainer, and Nisi Nashvettes. Through its blend of outrageous,

comedy, key party anyone? And touching revelations, big age explores what it means to grow older without growing old at heart. Go to audible.com slash big age series to start listening today. I'm Kristen Davis, host of the podcast, Are You a Charlotte? In 1998, my life was forever changed when I took on the role of Charlotte York on a new show called Sex and the City. Now I get to sit down with some of my favorite people and relive all of the incredible moments This show brought us on and off the screen. Listen to Are You a Charlotte on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.

Guaranteed human.