The Secret World of Roald Dahl - The Pivot

Episode Date: February 23, 2026

Desperate to salvage his fledgling career, Dahl makes a radical pivot and submits a children's story to his publisher. It's a massive gamble, and it fails spectacularly. His personal life implodes soon after. But from the wreckage of everything he's lost, Dahl discovers greater success than he’s ever known before.    Follow "The Secret World of Roald Dahl": Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secretworldpod/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SecretWorldPod/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@secretworldpod YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@SecretWorldPod X: https://x.com/SecretWorld_Pod See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Hello, gorgeous. It's Lala Kent. Host of Untraditionally Lala. My days of filling up cups at sir may be over, but I'm still loving life in the valley. Live on the other side of the hill is giving grown-up vibes,

but over here on my podcast, Untraditionally Lala, I'm still that Lala you either love or love to hate. It's unruly, it's unruly, unafraid, it's untraditionally Lala. Listen to Untraditionally Lala on the IHartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you. get your podcast. Most people out here think that taking care of one another is important. And most people would step up for a neighbor going through a tough time. Most people around here help out

friends and family when they need it. But the funny thing is, most of us won't look for help when we need it. Talk to someone if you're struggling with mental health because most people out here really care. Find more information at loveyourmindtay.org. That's loveyourmindtay.org. Brought to you by the Huntsman Mental Health Institute. and the Ad Council. Now everybody over here? Oh, it's one of my other favorite places. The Twilight Gazebo.

Sunset Gardens. Twilight Gazebo. What's next? Dead Man's Grove? Mom, could you please try to be a little bit positive about this? From Kenya Barris, the visionary creator of Blackish, comes Big Age, an audible original about finding your way in life's next chapter. This audio comedy series follows a retired.

couple's reluctant relocation to Sunset Gardens, a Floridian senior community that is anything but relaxing. Starring Comedy Legends Jennifer Lewis, Cedric the Entertainer, and Nisi Nashvettes. Through its blend of outrageous comedy, key party anyone, and touching revelations, big age explores what it means to grow older without growing old at heart. Go to audible.com slash big age series to start listening today. I'm Kristen Davis, host of the podcast, Are You a Charlotte? In 1998, my life was forever changed when I took on the role of Charlotte York on a new show called Sex in the City. Now I get to sit down with some of my favorite people and relive all of the incredible moments this show brought us on and off the screen. Listen to Are You a Charlotte on the IHeart

Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Before we start, one point, production note. In this episode, we have a lot of quotes from Roald Dahl. So we use an actor's performance and some custom software to create a doll-like voice. Okay, on to the episode. Roll Dahl has never felt smaller in his life than he does on this particular crisp January morning, walking into his publisher's office on 42nd Street. The manuscript tucked under his arm feels like evidence of failure. Dahl thinks of himself as a sophisticated author of smart, suspenseful short stories for an elite, literature-loving audience. But now he's about to submit a children's story.

How could this have happened? He's a guy who sells his stories to the New Yorker and dates movie stars. Now he's trying to become the next Dr. Seuss? And that's best case scenario. He's basically about to pitch an expanded bedtime story to the same editor who worked with T.S. Eliot, Albert Camus, and James Baldwin. There's a gnawing pit in Dull's stomach. He hates himself right now.

No confidence tried, no casual lean against the door frame with a clever quip. Today, his throat is tight, his palms damp. A single thought plays on repeat in his mind. Will everyone see this as what it is? A desperate attempt to salvage his writing career? And then another thought. What if Olivia and Theo and his other kids are the only ones who find his stories charming

and magical? But what choice does Dahl have? His adult fiction just isn't selling anymore. It's this? Or give up writing? He knocks on the office door. with Alfred Knopf and waits. Finally, the door is pulled open, and Dahl hands over his manuscript, knowing it's either his salvation or the final nail in his coffin. Knoff doesn't fall in love

with Dahl's manuscript. No one writes kids' books like this one. It's just so weird. It's filled with really dark themes and a subversive tone, while most kids' books of the early 1960s have more wholesome, sanitized narratives. Dahl has incorporated real childhood fears of abandonment, abuse, and loneliness. The plot revolves around an orphan, the with his horrible ants, and has some really surreal touches. But Knapp is at least a little taken with the sheer breath of imagination in the story. He decides what the hell. He'll take a shot.

They'll publish in America first since that's where Dahl's living. The first printing comes out in July, 1961, and almost no one buys it. No one cares. Roll Dahl's first stab at a children's book sells just 2,600 copies in its entire first year. But remember, this is Roll Dahl. The same man who was told his son needed a medical tube that didn't exist, so he invented one. The same man who willed his wife back to health after her strokes when the doctor said it was impossible. He is not a man who accepts defeat.

Which is why it's so out of character that for the next few years, Roald Dahl is about the least successful writer of children's books of any author at any of the major publishing houses. But he keeps working. He starts over and writes another one, and then another one. and he always keeps the stories just as dark and surreal as that first one. Despite the lack of sales, he's positive that the stories work. His own children love them. And then in 1967, he convinces Knoff to take the first children's book he wrote,

the one that flopped in America, and publish it in the UK. Maybe the book needs to be read by British children. Knapp agrees. The first printing in the UK completely sells out. And so does that. the next printing. And the one after that. And the one after that. It took six years, but Dahl's first stab at writing a children's novel goes from selling just 2,600 copies to becoming one of the best-selling children's books in the history of the genre. Roughly 20 million copies sold.

The volume of readership may have changed, but the title never did. It's always been called James and the Giant Peach. This story, along with Dahl's next, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, establishes his reputation as someone who understands that children crave more sophisticated, complex stories than what's typically offered to them. Dahl later says that the two books taught him, children are far more resilient and hungry for more adventurous stories than adults ever give them credit for. This key insight will inform all his subsequent classics, from the BFG to Matilda to the

witches and on and on. Once his first two books become these phenomenons, Doll puts the sophisticated, snobby New Yorker readership in his rear view. Doll gets that old confidence back and quickly decides he's not going to settle for just being a working children's writer. He's going to be the greatest there's ever been. At home, his wife, Patricia Neal, is still recovering from her strokes. Thanks to Doll's aggressive rehab,

she's doing better than even her most optimistic doctors thought possible. Doll can finally ease up as her drill sergeant, but there's been a noticeable trade-off. All this time serving as her discipline, has eroded any last romance that remained in their marriage. And this lack of romance is a problem, because doll's passion for his new work and his new success can't be contained to the page. It's spilling into every corner of his life, desperate to burst out, like slivers of light through open blinds. And that's when Felicity Crossland

enters the picture. For my hard podcast, Imagine Entertainment, and Parallax. I'm Aaron Tracy, and this is The Secret World of Roll Doll. Episode 6. Doll is 56 years old. Felicity, or Lizzie, as she's known to friends and family, is 33. According to writer Nadia Cohen, Felicity is stunningly beautiful with striking dark hair. She had married young and already had three children by the age of 25. For work at this time, Felicity is a set designer on commercial shoots. She comes to Doll and Neil's house because Neil is making a commercial for Maxim's coffee. It's about all the acting Neil can handle as she gets her health back.

I love Maxim. Isn't that nice? My husband loves it too. Quick aside for a very weird anecdote. When Anne Hathaway was preparing for her role in a film called Eileen a few years ago, she, quote, got a lot of inspiration from Patricia Neal, specifically from a coffee commercial that she did. Hathaway continues, it's just kind of this dark, smoky sound, and I really didn't care what it was she was talking about.

She's literally selling less instant coffee, but there's something almost hypnotic about it. Such a weird reference, Anne, but I totally hear it, and I totally hear it, And I totally agree. But while Neil might be hypnotizing to me and Anne Hathaway in this commercial, Dahl's attention is drawn to the beautiful young woman standing just out of frame. He quickly makes a game plan. He decides to totally ignore her, just as he ignored Neil at Lillian Helman's dinner party all those years before.

That's his move. The day after the coffee commercial, again mirroring what he did with Neil all those years ago, he begins to pursue. Felicity, to her credit, totally rebuffs him. He's a married man, but as usual, Dahl isn't phased. He decides to orchestrate a really convoluted plan that feels like it was ripped out of a bad sitcom.

As she's rejecting him, Felicity mentions she's an upcoming trip to Paris. That's when Dahl strikes. He asks her, Would you mind terribly picking up my favorite umbrella? I left it in Paris at my friend Annabella's place. Now, you may remember that Annabella is Dahl's actress ex-girlfriend. She's the one that Dahl chose to go up on stage

in front of millions of people and accept the Oscar on his wife's behalf. And now she's going to repay the favor. What follows is less the retrieval mission of an umbrella and more an elaborate ambush. Felicity gets to Paris and shows up at Annabella's apartment, expecting the umbrella. And this better be like an umbrella made out of gold

if she's schlepped all the way here for it. Once she's inside, Annabella basically locks the door behind her and delivers what amounts to a university PowerPoint lecture on all of dolls' amazing qualities. She keeps Felicity there for hours trying to persuade her, and then hands her doll's two-dollar umbrella. The most surprising twist? The plan actually works.

As scripted by doll, the umbrella becomes the McGuffin that brings him and Felicity together. When Felicity shows up at Dolls, holding his prized umbrella, the relationship begins. The two lovebirds become insatiable. They see everything they share in common is destiny. Doll can't believe it when he discovers that he and Felicity have been born a few streets away, from each other in Landaff. It must be destiny. I used to be like this in relationships. I mean, everybody is, right?

Your favorite order from Chinese restaurants is chicken with broccoli? My favorite order is chicken with broccoli. It's fate. That's how it feels for Dahl right now. He writes her tons of passionate love letters, including this one. With each month and each week that goes by, the desire to see you more and more often grow stronger and stronger. It has become absolutely necessary that I see you and touch you,

and talk to you every few days. And I suppose that's what real love is all about. Lovemaking is another department, and of course that is also necessary. But the prime necessity, the first belonging, the thing that has become vital and essential, is contact.

Meeting together in a room, sitting down and talking, allowing the warmth to pass from one to another, the marvelous, gentle warmth of love. It's like he's 15 with his first girlfriend. After years of no romantic feelings in his life, the floodgates have burst open.

But of course, they have a giant obstacle in their path. Namely, Dahl is still married. Dahl and Felicity do their best to keep the affair secret from Neil and from all of their children. And remarkably, they get away with it for years. Whenever he wants to talk to Felicity, Dahl drives to a phone booth in town rather than risk using the home phone.

In the end, it's Portessa, the daughter who watched her brother get hit by. a car, watched her older sisters succumbed to measles, and watch her mom have a stroke from the bathtub who eventually discovers the affair. Tessa had quit school at 16, hating her boarding school almost as much as her father famously hated his. She decided to move back home to help her father take care of her mother, who still needed assistance after the strokes. Late one night, it's raining terribly, so Dahl decides not to go outside and drive to the phone booth. He takes a chance and calls Felicity right from the landline. Tessa overhears her father whispered.

I heard him have this phenomenally amorous conversation, she remembers, which was nothing like I'd ever heard him have with anyone else in my life, certainly not Mum. She confronts her father about it. He blows up at her, embarrassed and also absolutely terrified that this will be what brings the affair to an end. Doll puts his 16-year-old in an impossible spot and begs her to talk with Felicity before she reveals the affair to her mother.

Think about that for a second. asking your teenage kid to step into the middle of your adult relationship drama? But Tessa agrees to do it. She sits down with Felicity alone. We don't know exactly what was said, but we do know the outcome. Tessa decides to keep her father's secret. She carries the weight of it. A burden, no teenager should have to bear.

Quick aside about Tessa for a second, whether it's because of all the tumult of her youth or some other reason, Tessa starts to rebel during her teenage years much more than the other kids. She throws herself into a series of relationships with much older men, often around the same age as her father. Her most noteworthy fling

is with the actor Peter Sellers, from Dr. Strangelove and Being There. Sellers is 50 at the time of the affair. Tessa is 19. But back to the story. Tessa's willingness to keep her father's affair a secret is what allows it to continue with gusto. In another letter to Felicity,

Dahl writes, Great times, marvelous times, Easily the best times of my own particular life. And how can I possibly thank you enough for that? Only, I think, by loving you a tremendous amount, which is what I do. Eventually, Neil does, of course, put two and two together about her husband and this beautiful woman he's spending time with, and she is furious. In fact, she tells their daughter Ophelia about her father's affair,

which is so complicated when you remember how devastated Neil was years earlier when Gary Cooper's wife did the exact same thing, telling their daughter about her father's affair with Neil. It all becomes such an ugly scene that Felicity insists to Dahl, they have to break it off, which they do. Dahl grows miserable without Felicity. He can barely eat, barely work. He goes to his wife and begs her to allow him to keep seeing Felicity.

He promises he doesn't want a divorce. He wants to stay with the children and stay in the house near his writing hut. But he also has to have Felicity in his life. He writes a letter to Neil, very pragmatically. What I would like to do is go on living with you and having you return this love without feeling the least bit jealous of the fact that now and again, but not very often, I meet Felicity and have lunch with her.

All of this is obviously a rotten deal for Felicity, and I sort of hope she won't put up with it for long. There is no future in it for her. told a long ago that there is no chance of me ever leaving you. For her sake, though, as well as for mine, the thing should be allowed to tick over until it comes to a natural end. And the best thing you can do to encourage that ending is to be non-gealous and normal. Yeah, you know, just be normal, Pat. I'm just going to have some lynches with this beautiful woman that I'm obsessed with and I've been having an affair with for years. No biggie. Neil, shockingly, refuses

Doll's well-thought-out request, and Felicity, again, to her credit, refuses to see Doll without Neil's blessing. Two long years go by without Doll and Lissy being together. Dahl continues to be a mess. He sends Felicity all these anguished letters. Then, when he has a hip replacement, fixing an old injury from that plane crash in the war, Neil is still not really well enough to help with his rehab. He calls Felicity, begging for her help. Felicity agrees to come over. They have to be a haven't seen each other in two years, and the affair immediately starts up again. This time, though, Patricia Neal seems to resign herself to it. Speaking of Doll's triumph with James and the Giant Peach, she says,

Success did not mellow my husband. Quite the contrary, it only enforced his conviction that although life was a two-lane street, he had the right of way. One weekend, well after Dolls recovered from the hip surgery, Felicity's daughter Charlotte gets in a serious car crash in Scotland. Felicity brings Dahl to Scotland with her as her daughter lays in the hospital in a coma with a fractured skull. Again, weirdly, another brain injury in Dahl's orbit. Felicity brought Dahl not only for emotional support, but because Theo also had a fractured skull from a car accident.

Maybe Dahl can help her ask the right questions of the doctors. While Dahl and Felicity are away, Ophelia calls him at the hotel to ask a question, but it's Felicity who picks up the phone. Ophelia is crushed to learn the affair. back on. But years later, referring to her father and Felicity, Ophelia says, it was the biggest love story ever. I felt hurt, but I don't know another couple who were ever so much in love. Apparently agreeing with this sentiment, Neil eventually decides on a divorce. She can handle it now. She's getting her strength back. And her career has had a major comeback, starting with her big return to acting in a lead role in the subject was roses, the film adaptation

of a Pulitzer Prize-winning play. Here's Neil speaking to Terry Gross, about what that job did for her. Oh, I was furious that I was going to have to do it, and I didn't want to it all. And then we started rehearsals. We rehearsed for about a week. And, oh, the first day I hated it, and the second day, and the third day I began to sort of like it.

Well, at the end of that film, I was the most delighted woman in the world. I mean, that's what I needed to begin to live again. And it really, it brought me back to life. The film won raves, and Neil was nominated for Best Actress Again. Her career is revived, and she continues acting for many more years. Now, even though Doll is clearly the one who brought the divorce about, he goes into a funk when it actually happens.

He becomes super depressed. Here's what he writes in his journal. I become easily bored in the company of adults. I drink too much whiskey and wine in the evenings. I eat far too much chocolate, smoke too many cigarettes. I am bad-tempered when my back is hurting. I do not always clean my fingernails. I no longer tell my children long stories at bedtime.

I bet on horses and lose money that way. I dislike Mother's Day and Father's Day and all the other days and all the cards that people buy and send out. I hate my own birthday. I'm going bald. Sheesh, if that doesn't sound like a late midlife crisis, I don't know what does. The man who spent his 20s living like James Bond, literally, now confronts the dissolution of his marriage and growing old. His hip replacement seems to add insult to injury.

It forces him to reckon with the distance between the adventurous, glamorous young spy he once was and the aging, irritable, physically broken man he's become. It's ironic, of course, because he's only just now finally achieved the incredible success with his writing that he's always dreamed of. Still, Dahl finds himself face to face with his own decline. The one thing that brings him out of it is getting to marry Felicity. This is Saigon, the story of my family and of the country that shaped us. The United States will not stand by and allow any power, however great, take over another country. From My Heart Podcasts, Saigon.

Please allow me to introduce Joseph Sherman. You don't think I'm serious about a free Vietnam? I should stop talking so much. I like hearing you talk. One city, a divided country, and the war that tore America apart. This is for Vietnam. I've taken a hit from Japanese ground fire. Do you rate me?

They're pouring petrol all over him. He's holding matches. I'm on a landmine. Four free time. Let's get out. Freedom from Vietnam. Run! Saigon, starring Kelly Marie Tran and Rob Benedict.

Sting, here's madness. The world should hear about this. There's a fire coming to this country, and it's going to burn out everything. Listen to Saigon on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, gorgeous, it's Lala Kent, host of Untraditionally Lala. My days of filling up cups at sir may be over,

but I'm still loving life in the valley. Life on the other side of the hill is giving grown-up vibes, but over here on my podcast, Untraditionally Lala, I'm still that Lala you either love or love to hate. I've been full on over sharing with fans, family, and former frenemies like Tom Schwartz. I had a little bone to pick with Schwartzie when he came on the pod. You don't feel bad that you told me I was a bootleg housewife?

I almost flipped a pizza in your lap. Oh my God, I literally forgot about that until just now. Sorry, I don't want to blame alcohol. I got to blame that one on the alcohol. This is about laughing and learning when life just keeps on life in. Because I make mistakes so that you guys don't have to. We're growing, we're thriving. And yes, sometimes we're barely surviving.

But we do it all with love. It's unruly, it's unafraid, it's untraditionally la la. Listen to Untraditionally Lala on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Most people out here think that taking care of one another is important. And most people would step up for a neighbor going through a tough time. Most people around here help out friends and family when they need it. But the funny thing is, most of us won't look for help when we need it. Talk to someone if you're struggling with mental health.

Because most people out here really can. Find more information at loveyourmind today.org. That's loveyourmindtay.org. Brought to you by the Huntsman Mental Health Institute and the Ad Council. Now everybody over here? Oh, it's one of my other favorite places. The Twilight Gazebo. Sunset Gardens.

Twilight gazebo. What's next? Dead man's grove? Mom, could you please try to be a little bit positive about this? From Kenya Barris, the visionary creator of Blackish, comes Big Age, an audible original about finding your way in life's next chapter. This audio comedy series follows a retired couple's reluctant relocation to Sunset Gardens, a Floridian senior community that is anything but relaxing.

Starring Comedy Legends Jennifer Lewis, Cedric the Entertainer, and Nisi Nashvettes. Through its blend of outrageous comedy, key party anyone? And touching revelations, Big Age explores what it means to grow older without growing old at heart. Go to audible.com slash big age series to start listening today. Things get dark again a few years later. Death and illness have been constant themes for doll over the past couple decades, and here they come again. Doll takes Ophelia on a Caribbean vacation with Felicity and her youngest daughter, Lorena.

27-year-old Lorena, a fashion editor at Harper's magazine, begins complaining of headaches and a strange buzzing in her ear. Doll's blood pressure immediately spikes. The symptoms are too familiar. He summons a doctor immediately, the same urgent response he once had for Theo, for Olivia, for Neil. But the diagnosis comes back. It's just a near infection. Antibiotics are prescribed, crisis averted. Or so they think. When the vacation ends, Lorena flies to South Africa for a photo shoot. She has no idea that the doctors were wrong about it being an infection. It's actually an aggressive brain tumor.

She collapses at the airport from an aneurysm. At 27, Felicity's daughter has passed away. Felicity is shattered, and Dahl, he's haunted. Another brain trauma in someone close to him, his stepdaughter. The statistical impossibility leaves him stupefied. According to Felicity's older daughter, Charlotte, Dahl somehow blames himself, as if he were the common denominator in some terrible equation, a walking curse.

All he can do now is hold Felicity through her grief. By the time Lerina passes away, Dahl is a world-renowned children's author. So let's go back a little bit to before Dahl meets Felicity. I want to tell you more of the origin story of Dahl making this giant pivot to kids' books. I mentioned in our last episode that Dahl finally found his voice by changing up his intended audience. Here's what brought him to that point. Desperation. The same emotion that's motivated pretty much every author ever.

Alfred Knoff has just rejected Dahl's latest stab at adult fiction with the words every writer dreads. He was, quote, let down by the manuscript. Ugh, just hearing that sends a shiver out my back. Getting this difficult feedback, Dahl goes into a funk. His most recent collection of short stories didn't exactly set the world on fire, and now this. Dahl lets the gloom of the rejection overtake him for about six weeks. Then, his agent, Sheila St. Lawrence, steps in with the lifeline. She reminds him how his story about the gremlins once changed his life.

It catapulted him into Eleanor Roosevelt's living room and inspired Walt Disney to throw him a party. That's what you should be doing more of, Sheila tells all, with the kind of conviction that only great agents can muster. You have a natural bent in this direction and a ready audience hungry for it. Isn't that just the dream scenario for a writer with his literary agent?

She sees potential where he can't. She's fighting for his future when he's stuck mourning his past. Sheila recognizes that Dahl needs a radical shift. Children's literature could give him unlimited freedom and boundless worlds to build. Dahl's initial response to his agent when she has this brilliant career-saving insight, it's the same reaction he had with Neil and Felicity when he first met them. He completely ignores her. After decades positioning himself as a sophisticated writer of adult fiction,

a pivot like this feels like a surrender, a step down. This is a guy who's very sensitive. about how he's perceived. Remember how much he downplayed his writing of the James Bond film, making fun of it to anyone that would listen? That same malicious pride is at work here. But then, a few days later, something shifts in Dahl. Maybe it's thinking about Olivia and Theo.

Maybe it's the bleak future he senses he's in for if he sticks with only writing for adults. Maybe it's all the bills stacking up for Neil's rehab. Dahl's resistance begins to crack. He calls his agent and doesn't exactly commit, but promises he'll give a children's story. a try. But he's determined no one will ever mistake this pivot for a failure or a retreat or feel sorry for him. His ego constructs a defensive fortress, and you can hear it in every

interview he ever gives on the topic. Like here on BBC One speaking to Terry Wogan. There's absolutely no question to me that writing we're talking about fine children's books is far, far harder. I think I can almost prove it because there is no, writer of consequence in the world or who's ever lived who hasn't had a go at a children's book, from Tolstoy to Graham Grean, Four. He's our finest living novelist. You're smiling, you see, well, okay, because they didn't succeed. Man, I wish I could just give Donald a hug here, you know? Tell him no one is looking down on him for his pivot. Maybe I'm especially sensitive to it, because I always wanted to write movies, like the ones I grew up.

with. Instead, I've built a career writing TV and audio dramas, and I've caught myself getting defensive about it, too. For Dahl, this defensiveness becomes almost a refrain, a mantra he repeats an interview after interview, as if he's still trying to convince himself of something, even as his children's books make him more famous and more successful than his adult fiction ever did. Here he is on Pebble Mill from the BBC. To my mind, I don't think there's any question that to write a children's book of comparable quality to a fine adult novel or story is more difficult.

It's much more difficult to achieve the children's book. Now, why is that? Goodness knows. I do wonder if all this insecurity about becoming a children's author actually has a positive effect on doll's writing. He's so scared of being perceived as Dr. Seuss that he refuses to abandon his sophisticated adult themes,

the violence, the grotesquery, the corruption, all those delicious elements. from his adult writing, he's going to transplant them right into his children's stories, which is a big part of what makes these books work so well. The darkness doesn't disappear, it just finds a new home. This is such an important lesson that so few writers seem to have gleaned. I bought a ton of books to read to my kids, written by authors and comedians I love, who are making their first stab of writing for children. In these books, all of them totally abandoned the qualities that make me like them so much. The only exception is Fran Leibowitz,

who managed to write a kid's book that still has all of her hilarious crankiness and cynicism. Now, while Dahl repeats over and over that writing for kids is just as challenging as writing for adults, he surprisingly downplays any deeper meaning to his work. There are very few messages in these books of mine, he says. They are there simply to turn the child into a reader of books. I don't really buy that.

A lot of great writers like to downplay their intentions and messages. I remember sitting in a small workshop when I was starting out. Aaron Sorking came to speak. I nervously raised my hand and asked about the themes I thought I spotted in his new show. He basically shot back that he's really lazy

and watches a lot of baseball on TV and sort of implied that I was seeing more in his script than he intended. Which may be true. I'm a lunatic when it comes to his work. But it's also true that writers deflect and minimize

when it comes to their messages. Sometimes it's out of modesty. Sometimes it's protecting their process. But it's rarely the full story. With Dahl, his themes practically leap off the page. Take Charlie in the Chocolate Factory. Colin Burrow, from the London Review of Books,

nails it in his essay when he writes. The book is rooted in Dahl's whiplash experience of moving from austere post-war England to the glittering excess of 1950s America, a land seemingly flowing with chocolate and honey. The moral isn't subtle. Charlie Bucket, the impoverished English boy who savors a single chocolate bar

who keeps his appetites in check, he's the one who inherits Wonka's kingdom. Meanwhile, the gluttonous Augustus Gloop, the spoiled Varucosal, the obsessive Violet Beauregard, they're all undone by their insatiable American-style appetites. It's a searing critique of unchecked commercialism

wrapped in a candy coating. End quote. I totally buy this analysis. Arthur Miller was basically tackling the exact same themes in Death of a Salesman, just for a very different audience. As Burrow perfectly capital, again in his essay, Dahl never abandons the darkness. He just pushes it into the shadows where it looms

even larger. His particular magic is, quote, his ability to repress nastiness while keeping it visible. His style, think Hemingway for kids, but with wrinkles and twinkles and lashings of chocolate, and those occasional words like fizzwangle or goonswoggle that make the pros bubble and pop is performing a brilliant sleight of hand, Brod continues. All that whimsy in wordplay, it's the bright, colorful scarf the magician waves while something much darker moves just out of view. The nastiness isn't gone. It's lurking beneath the surface, swimming like a shark under seemingly calm waters, making everything more thrilling precisely because we sense its presence without seeing it fully. I totally agree with Burrow here. And here's a similar thought from the great

screenwriter and actor Emma Thompson on Sky News on what she appreciates about Dahl. It's that thing with Dahl, isn't it, of something that's genuinely threatening, but in a kind of delicious way? Aunt Sponger and Aunt Spiker in James and the Giant Peach. And when I was growing up and reading Dahl, I just loved that sense of genuine jeopardy. And I also thought that he saw human darkness very clearly and yet was able to write it into children's stories and make it possible for us to read them when we were little. and understand that it's a real thing, darkness and cruelty to children, but that also all of the kids that he writes about have this amazing agency.

As the book sell more and more copies, Dahl's ambitions grow. He's not just stumbling into the realm of children's light. He's attempting to conquer it. He becomes like a general mapping out a campaign. He thinks about every detail of what works and what doesn't. Listen to how precisely he dissect small elements that captivate his young readers. Doll writes, They love being spooked.

They love suspense. They love action. They love ghosts. They love the finding of treasure. They love chocolates and toys and money. They love magic. It's like he's making a recipe. And something extraordinary happens when doll fully embraces his new identity as children's author.

This new mask that he's chosen to wear. His creativity, which was previously kept on a somewhat tight leash in his adult fiction, breaks totally free. It's as if all those years writing sophisticated, controlled short stories were just warm-ups for the wild, unbridled imagination he unleashes now. Dahl himself is a fascinating theory about this creative explosion. Remember his plane crash in the war? The one that left him with severe head trauma for decades?

He believes the frontal lobe damage made him less inhibited, essentially rewiring his brain. But of course, there's a downside, too. As we'll hear when we get to some of the interviews Dahl gave, especially one in particular. His unfiltered, uninhibited manner allowed his bigotry to come to the surface and nearly ended his career. This is Saigon, the story of my family and of the country that shaped us. The United States will not stand by and allow any power, however great, take over another country.

From My Heart Podcasts, Saigon. Please allow me to introduce Joseph Sherman. You don't think I'm serious about a free Vietnam? I should stop talking so much. I like hearing you talk. city, a divided country, and the war that tore America apart. This is for Vietnam. I've taken a hit from Japanese ground fire.

Do you rate me? They're pouring petrol all over him. He's holding matches. I'm on a landmine. For free time. Let's get out. Freedom from Vietnam. Run!

Saigon, starring Kelly Marie Tran and Rob Benedict. Sting, here's madness. The world should hear about this. There's a fire coming to this country and it's going to burn. about everything. Listen to Saigon on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, gorgeous, it's Lala Kent, host of Untraditionally Lala.

My days of filling up cups at sir may be over, but I'm still loving life in the valley. Life on the other side of the hill is giving grown-up vibes, but over here on my podcast, Untraditionally Lala, I'm still that Lala you either love or love to hate. I've been full on oversharing with fans, family, and former frenemies like Tom Shepie. Schwartz. I had a little bone to pick with Schwartzie when he came on the pod. You don't feel bad that

you told me I was a bootleg housewife. I almost flipped a pizza in your lap. I was so pissed. I literally forgot about that until just now. Sorry, I don't want to blame alcohol. That I got to blame that one on the alcohol. This is about laughing and learning when life just keeps on life in. Because I make mistakes so that you guys don't have to. We're growing, we're thriving. And yes, sometimes we're barely surviving. But we do it all with love. It's unruly. It's unafraid. It's Untraditionally Lala. Listen to Untraditionally Lala on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

Most people out here think that taking care of one another is important. And most people would step up for a neighbor going through a tough time. Most people around here help out friends and family when they need it. But the funny thing is, most of us won't look for help when we need it. Talk to someone if you're struggling with mental health. Because most people out here really care. Find more information at Love, Loveyourmindtay.org. That's loveyourmindtay.org.

Brought to you by the Huntsman Mental Health Institute and the Ad Council. Now everybody over here? Oh, it's one of my other favorite places. The Twilight Gazebo. Sunset Gardens. Twilight gazebo. What's next? Dead man's grove? Mom, could you please try to be a little bit positive about this? From Kenya Barris, the visionary creator of Blackish, comes big age. an Audible Original about Finding Your Way in Life's Next Chapter.

This audio comedy series follows a retired couple's reluctant relocation to Sunset Gardens, a Floridian senior community that is anything but relaxing. Starring Comedy Legends Jennifer Lewis, Cedric the Entertainer, and Niecy Nashvettes. Through its blend of outrageous comedy, key party anyone? And touching revelations, Big Age explores what it means to grow older, without growing old at heart. go to audible.com slash big age series to start listening today. There's something besides Dahl's disinhibitions and his wild imagination that I think makes him truly electric to young readers.

It's his uncanny ability to crawl inside the mind of a child. It's not just empathy, it's something deeper. Dahl has incredible access to his own memories. And what he remembers from his childhood is fear. At just three years old, Dahl's world was shattered. His father and sister died with his own. in a few weeks of each other. Imagine that. He's barely old enough to form complete sentences, and death has already become the central character in his story. His Norwegian mother, Sophie,

was suddenly stranded in England, a foreign country for her, with five children to raise, three of her own, plus two from her husband's first marriage. And as if that weren't enough, she's eight months pregnant with another child. Most women in this nightmare scenario would flee back to familiar territory. As Dahl suggests in his memoir, they would have sold everything packed whatever remained, and rushed back to Norway, where her parents and two unmarried sisters were waiting with open arms to help. But Sophie doesn't run. Before he died, her husband had been adamant about one thing.

Their children must be educated in England. He believed with almost religious fervor that England's education system was the secret alchemy that transformed its people into a world power. And so, in a wild act of devotion to his memory, Sophie honors his wishes. She stays in England, a widow with a house full of children, in a country not her own, speaking a language she didn't grow up with. This is the foundation that Dahl's imagination is built on, loss, devotion, and the ghost of a father

whose absence shapes everything. After his father's death, Dahl spent several years surrounded by his remaining sisters, a bustling household of women who should have been a built-in support system during those dark days. You'd think they'd band together, united by loss. and maybe they did. Maybe behind closed doors there were moments of connection of shared tears

and whispered comforts. But I can't help wondering if young rolled, the only boy in this sea of women, somehow remained adrift because here's a curious thing that sort of haunts me about doll's work.

Every one of his child heroes, with only a single exception I can think of, stands completely alone in the world with no siblings. James, Charlie, Danny, Sophie, on and on,

all of them face their monstableness, their monsters without siblings by their side. This can't have been accidental. This wasn't just convenient plotting. Despite being physically surrounded by family, Dahl must have felt achingly alone. It's there in those children who vanish without a trace in the BFG, swallowed by the night while everyone else just sleeps, oblivious.

Dahl understood on the deepest level what it means to be alone in a crowded room, to feel that no one truly sees you. And he poured that lonely truth into character. who burrowed into the minds of millions of young readers who felt exactly the same way. Dahl's mother had no choice but to become a fierce protector of her kids, especially Dahl, her beloved only son. Now, it's no surprise that Dahl would act out in school. This is before someone in Dahl's situation would be taken to therapy three times a week.

He lost his father and sister. Of course he's acting out. On one particular day of really egregious misbehavior, Dahl and his friends receive a vicious caning. He describes the headmaster holding up a long yellow cane, which curves around the top like a walking stick. The headmaster tells the boys to line up against his bookcase. Dahl describes the large adult man, raising the cane high above his shoulder and bringing it down with a loud swishing sound. And then there's a crack, like a pistol shot, as it hits a boy's bottom.

Each boy receives four strokes. And even worse, each one is forced to watch the other boys suffer before it's their turn. doll goes last. So his anticipation is off the charts. He's forced to bend over, grabbing the floor with his hands, he writes in his memoir. I was thrown forward so violently that if my fingers hadn't been touching the carpet, I think I would have fallen flat on my face. The burning stain that flooded across my buttocks were so terrific that all I could do was gasp. It felt, I promise you, as though someone had laid a red-hot poker against my flesh and was pressing down on it hard. The second stroke was worse than the first. By the time the fourth stroke was delivered, my entire

backside seemed to be going up in flames. That evening after my supper, my sisters had their baths before me. Then it was my turn. But as I was about to step into the bathtub, I heard a horrified gasp from my mother behind me. What's this? What happened to you? She was staring at My bottom. Who did this, my mother cried? Tell me at once. In the end, I had to tell her the whole story while my sisters stood around in their nighties, listening, goggle-eyed. My mother heard me out in silence. She asked no questions. She just let me talk. And when I finished, she said to our nurse, you get them into bed, nanny. I'm going out. Isn't that the greatest? I'm going out. Of course, we all know where she's headed. When she returns later, she explains.

to young Doll what happened. She went to see the headmaster at his home. She tore into him for abusing her child. But he wasn't phased. He condescendingly explained to her that she was a guest in their country and didn't understand how British schools were run. If she didn't like his methods,

she could take her kids away. So, that's exactly what she does. Sophie has all her kids transferred to other schools at the end of the year. For Doll, all these harsh experiences as a kid become fodder for his children's books. After James and the Giant Peach comes Charlie in the Chocolate Factory

and then Fantastic Mr. Fox and later the Twits and the BFG and the witches and Matilda and so many more. He becomes prolific. And he's incredibly disciplined in his writing routine, churning out pages a day. The only breaks he gives himself

are to write the occasional book review or to do an interview with a journalist. It's one of these book reviews in particular, followed by maybe the worst interview any writer has ever given that turns Dahl's world upside down and forever changes his legacy. Get ready.

We're going to get into all of it in our next episode. The Secret World of Roll Dahl is produced by Imagine Audio and Parallax Studios for IHart Podcasts. Created and written by me, Aaron Tracy. Produced by Matt Schrader,

post-production by Windhill Studios, with editing, scoring, and sound design by Mark Henry Phillips. Editing by Ryan Seaton. Music by APM. Executive producers, Nathan Clokey, Kara Welker, Brian Grazer, Ron Howard, and Aaron Tracy.

Additional voice performances and recreation by Mark Henry Phillips and 11 Labs. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to rate and review The Secret World of Roll Doll on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Copyrate, 2026. Imagine Entertainment, IHeartMedia, and Parallax.

Hello, gorgeous, it's Lala Kent. Host of Untraditionally Lala. My days of filling up cups at Sir may be over, but I'm still loving life in the valley. Life on the other side of the hill is giving grown-up vibes, but over here on my podcast, Untraditionally Lala, I'm still that Lala you either love or love to hate. It's unruly, it's unruly, unafraid,

it's untraditionally Lala. Listen to Untraditionally Lala on the IHartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Most people out here think that taking care of one another is important. And most people would step up for a neighbor going through a tough time. Most people around here help out friends and family when they need it. But the funny thing is, most of us won't look for help when we need it. Talk to someone if you're struggling with mental health.

Because most people out here really care. Find more information at loveyourmindtay.org. That's loveyourmindtay.org. Brought to you by the Huntsman Mental Health Institute and the Ad Council. Now everybody over here? Oh, it's one of my other favorite places. The Twilight Gazebo. Sunset Gardens.

Twilight Gazebo. What's next? Dead Man's Grove? Mom, could you please try to be a little bit positive about this? From Kenya Barris, the visionary creator of Blackish, comes Big Age, an audible original about finding your way in life's next chapter. This audio comedy series follows a retired couple's reluctant location to Sunset Gardens, a Floridian senior community that is anything but relaxing.

Starring Comedy Legends Jennifer Lewis, Cedric the Entertainer, and Nisi Nashvettes. Through its blend of outrageous comedy, key party anyone, and touching revelations, Big Age explores what it means to grow older without growing old at heart. Go to audible.com slash big age series to start listening today. I'm Kristen Davis, host of the podcast, Are You a Charlotte, in 1998? my life was forever changed when I took on the role of Charlotte York on a new show called Sex and the City. Now I get to sit down with some of my favorite people

and relive all of the incredible moments this show brought us on and off the screen. Listen to Are You a Charlotte on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.