The Sevan Podcast - #20 - James Hobart

Episode Date: March 21, 2021

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by car and other conditions apply. Here's some in the background. It's good you couldn't hear because Brian just opened up with the most cliche James Hobart comment ever. Can you guess what it is? No, what did he say?

No, come on, guess. You know. Um, no. What did he say? No, come on. Guess, you know, I don't know something about being a team athlete or baby face killer or getting close. Go with that middle one. Baby face killer. Go with that one. Yeah. I don't need to keep guessing. So what are you drinking? Good dudes. Coffee. Oh, on ice in a roadie cup like that i don't condone roadies um so how do you see it too

brian when someone says something to you like that nice to see you you say oh nice to see you too i you know what i just i think i spaced out for a second there i thought he was talking to you my bad how do you guys know each other lost in my eyes i actually i would be i'm not really sure how how james knows me or what he recognizes me from but i do know that he's given me some uh compliments in the past when uh in passing and when I have seen him. So I've always appreciated that. Yeah, Brian, we've met a couple of times just throughout CrossFit life journey. Yeah, you've, you know, you've just, it's always surprising to me.

Like I'm never quite sure. A lot of, some of the athletes are pretty oblivious to like the media or the stats guys or the analysts. So I'm always a little bit caught off guard when one of them's like, Oh, Brian friend. Yeah. I remember you from this or that. Um, and you did that to me one time, which, uh, you know, I always think it's kind of cool. I'm glad. Did you do a, did you do an interview with us? I don't think you did Hobart. I don't think you were competing at the time. I think maybe you were reffing, but Brian and I met each other.

I think we met each other on Instagram right yeah 2018 open and then we started doing these um podcasts from the regionals and it was just like I just met him and I was just like let's do this people always thought I was crazy for that but I met actually two really good people I think her name is Lillian Fuentes and Brian Friend and Lillian's still in the space making videos. And Brian went on from, when I met you, you were with OPT's company, right? You were with James Fitzgerald's company? Yeah, I was, I had just recently done an OPEC certification because the, actually the CrossFit box I was working at at the time, which affiliated in 2008, had that year, that same year, had decided to shift their model towards the OPEX model.

And he asked me if I wanted to be a part of that and helped me pay for the credentials to get an OPEX certification. So I just pursued that. And, yeah, that was the same year that we met. And then you and myself and Mike Warkenton, was it just the three of us? And we would have a guest on, like we would have like Katrin on or Dave on or one of the athletes on. And it was, it was cool. Cause it was three different perspectives. Brian was like the, he really followed the games, you know, to the detail. And I, um,

trolled the athletes and Mike brought in a little bit of color. So it was nice. Did you watch any of those, James? I don't think I saw those. Well, fuck you then. I can take that. I deserve that. Yeah, I should be more up to date on it.

James Hobart is extremely unique in his perspective of CrossFit, as am I. James's uniqueness comes from the fact that he was a super high-level participant in the frolicking aspect of CrossFit, the Woodstock of CrossFit, the CrossFit Games, where people go and gather to be with like-minded people, kind of like the Grateful Dead or the Rainbow Gathering, but of the CrossFit, the CrossFit games where people go and, and, and gather to be with like-minded people, kind of like the Grateful Dead or the Rainbow Gathering, but of the CrossFit community. And he participated, um, he, he was overshadowed by obviously one of the biggest and names and most awesome human beings in the world.

Um, Rich Froning at CrossFit Mayhem. Oh, I thought you were going to say Austin Maliola. He's blocked by Austin's arms, but not his reputation. And then also James has this, which is pretty amazing, on the complete other side of the house of CrossFit, there's very few people who understand the foundation of what CrossFit is, the foundation of what CrossFit is, what actually is to use Greg Glassman's terms, the DNA of CrossFit better than James Hobart, because he is not only on the level one team, but he is on,

he's a flow master and he's been with the team since 19. No, since 2010. So it's 2021, that's 11 years. Yeah. Can I ask a question about the Flowmaster, James? If I'm not mistaken, are you across at level three or across at level four? I'm across at level four, coach. Oh, yeah.

But that's a pretty difficult distinction to come by, isn't it? It is a pretty difficult distinction. And one of the main reasons is that the old CrossFit Level 2 was sort of the DNA for what they used to create the CrossFit Level 4 credential. And so, the people who passed the old CrossFit Level 2, so this was probably, this was pre-2010, 2009-ish. They grandfathered them into the level four because that's what they were looking for the level four to be. And that was just really just a two-day trial by fire. You would come in and you would do some review. And then the next day you would just spend your time doing small group coaching. And then you get evaluated by would just spend your time doing small group coaching. And then you get evaluated by some of the most senior staff on the CrossFit training department and

you would pass or a lot of people failed. And then I came through and I helped test out and took the hopefully up and coming new CrossFit level four, which was the same thing. It's just a practical application and evaluation of your coaching ability and just different metrics inside that ability. So recently, that was probably a couple of years ago, I went through that process and passed that. And you say up and coming. I feel like I've been hearing for a couple of years that this new Level 4 is like coming around the corner, but it hasn, it hasn't really made its debut yet.

Yeah. I've been hearing that too. And, um, I think it's taken a really long time for them to get it to where they want to be. Um, from what little I understand about accreditation and the process of having a, you know, having a course and a test that performs the way it should, because that's like a whole area of study is when you apply a test, tests are supposed to perform a certain way across the population and, you know, have repeatability and predictability in their application. And because of the nature of a level four, you're evaluating someone's ability to coach a group class. It's really, really hard to quantify and encapsulate all those. it's really, really hard to quantify and encapsulate all those. So they've been just, it's been a, I think, you know, it's been a painstaking process in the sense that they just really want to get it as right as possible. So it's been very slow to develop and it's gone

through a lot of different iterations and hopefully, you know, hopefully it'll, it'll get here. I think it's, it's closer than it's ever been. And I'm sure you've heard that before, but having seen the process come as far as it has, it's definitely headed in the right direction. I worked with, um, for many, many years, uh, my colleague was Nicole Carroll, who runs the training department at CrossFit. And, um, well, when you were talking, I was going to describe her as a perfectionist, but I think a better term is she is extremely thorough. Yeah.

And she has, she's the one who spearheaded getting, I believe, the CrossFit certifications, ANSI certified. I don't even know what that means, but that means that like someone outside of us says that we're legit. I think it's mostly around the testing process. So the testing process is quote unquote scientific. It is really weird for an organization like CrossFit that has something, and I'll use the example of squatting below parallel that was frowned upon by so many people in the fitness space for so many years than to think that someone else can oversee the movements. And that's just one of dozens and dozens of examples. Basically what Greg Glassman did, and correct me if I'm wrong, James, is he's the first to say, hey, I didn't invent anything. These movements are part and

parcel with your DNA. And I've just sort of organized them into a practice, a methodology, and an instruction. So, so it is bizarre anytime anyone wants, it is extremely bizarre when anyone wants to oversee, um, CrossFit because the first thing that becomes apparent is, is that they don't even know what CrossFit is. Yeah. And I think there's, you know, what's interesting too about the model of CrossFit is there's, you know, I don't love this phrase, but there's a lot of proof in the pudding. You know, it's, uh, you know, you have thousands of affiliates practicing the general, you know, foundations of the model in a lot of different ways and having a lot of success. And, um, but yeah, the accreditation process is really unique. Um, but it was a huge hall and I know that, uh,

from what little I was involved with it, not really much at all. But having seen those involved on the training department and Nicole Carroll's effort behind it, it was a really huge accomplishment. And it's something they have to upkeep regularly. And it was a huge step in terms of just, I don't want to say legitimacy, because I always think seminar staff has been legitimate. But it was a huge step in terms of just growth for the, for the training department and all of their staff. James, what do you say to people? Um, someone texted me this the other day and I gave them a response. I'd love to hear your response. What do you say to people who say, Hey, um, there's nothing new about CrossFit. It's just taking a bunch of old movements and

mixing them together. Greg Glassman didn't invent anything. He just branded the movements. How can he patent the movements? What is CrossFit doing? This is just, you know, has always been here. I'm sure you've heard that, right? Yeah, I was that guy. You know, it was, I literally, when I first started, I stumbled on CrossFit, you know, back in 2000, early 2007.

And it was through a friend of mine. And then I started training with another buddy. And, you know, I would always say to him, I was like, who are these CrossFit guys that acted like they invented the pushup? Like, who cares? People have been doing pushups forever. Usually, you know, if someone says that to me, it's, I don't even have that argument with them anymore. My righteous self, five years ago, I probably would have been like, you just don't understand. But now it's like, well, that's cool. What would it get you to try it? What would you want to do to do it? is exactly the fact that we use functional movements. That's a core part of our methodology, but it's the combinations. It's the philosophy behind it. It's the effectiveness of the combinations. It's the community, the experience you have when you're in a gym. I mean, that's what it has always been for me. And I joke about this, like, I thought there was going to be a day after I went to my level one where I'd lift up a 95 pound barbell. And I was like, oh shit, I beat CrossFit. I won. I got all the fitness. That was

it. And that hasn't happened. Like you get fitter and you get stronger and the workouts get more miserable as you get fitter. And what's kept me involved with it this entire time is just the people I meet and just the experience of shared suffering is something I really value. So, I just, I shared that aspect of it with them. You know, I don't stress out about that stuff anymore too much. And I know that might seem silly because I spend a lot of my weekends telling people exactly what CrossFit is and how we're different from other fitness programs. But it's that part of it that's been the most valuable to me for the longest. This reminds me of something that you said, I don't know if it was this week or last week, Sevan, on one of your IG stories talking about just recognizing who, like the perspective

of the person you're interacting with. You used an example of a 5,000 foot perspective compared to 100,000 foot perspective. I think it was with regard to a different topic but um but what i hear you saying james is that i really i recognize in as humble a way as you probably can that you have a very elevated view of what crossfit is because of the as i've unsaid all the different experiences you've had with it for 13 years and when someone's saying something that to you you have to recognize they don't have those experiences so how can you meet them where they're at type of thing so that's cool that you've like evolved in that way in the, you know, in the last couple of years. And I think it took me a while to get there, you know, it's like when you first, and I'm still excited about it, but when you first start

something, you know, there's that honeymoon period and you can't do, you know, there's all the jokes, the only, you know, the worst thing about CrossFit, you know, coaches is that they never shut up about CrossFit. But, and I still am that to this day. But, you know, you're excited to talk about it and live it and everything you do focuses around it. And also because you're so excited to be a part of it, you're just very rigid in your application of it. And that has changed, you know, over the years. And one of the things I think I've learned the most is just the simplicity of the application. Like I still find myself regularly saying, you know, like I'll go do a couple simple uncomplicated couplets and triplets, two movements or three movements workouts a few times a week. And I'll feel really good. And, you know, I'll get better at a skill or I'll get stronger

at a movement. I always say to my wife, I'm just like, holy shit, you know, like a CrossFit just works. Like it just works, you know, even in its simplest expression, the basics of the methodology. I'm like, and that's always amazing to me. Cause if you don't find a lot of things in life that just work and work well, you know, it's like, and that's just at this point, I'm way more appreciative of that than I ever have been. Because I think when you're new and you're excited, you learn something and then you're like, all right, great. What's next? What's the next step? What's the next cool thing? And I feel like hopefully I've matured past that a little bit and I just keep finding, you know, so much value,

you know, like a sunrise, you know, it's like, there's just so much value and appreciation in that, in that simple, simple, simple thing. You can always do, you can always do Cindy. Yeah. And it just works, man. It just works. That's a great example. I can't remember the exact quote, but it was a long time ago. I ran across a quote that was probably ancient of Greg Glassman. That was something like, once you master the whatever, return to the basics. Yeah.

Yeah. And then you think he says something to's kind of like pay closer attention the second time yes it takes a while to gain that appreciation i think in in probably anything you do but i've certainly i'm getting to that point now in in my application of crossfit in my view of myself and fitness and um it's a it's a good feeling because it's never the day you know to find happiness through fitness it never it's not like oh a good feeling because it's never the day you know to find happiness through fitness it never it's not like oh man i have to have this really complicated thing to do it's like like you know i could just go do cindy and it's like i feel better and it was challenging and it

was fun and i'm better than i was 20 minutes ago i think that's cool i think that's there's a lot of value in that i think a lot of uh i think i've seen a lot of crossfitters that were i don't you know i don't want to say like your generation, but I'm saying like competitive CrossFitters from 2011 to 15, 16, like that time period, are now kind of having that experience of, because they all started out training an hour a day. And then, you know, Rich has told the story many times. It's like one day we just decided to do two training sessions a day. And that evolved to three training sessions a day. But a lot of people are now almost making that full circle where they're like i've done three hours and four hour training sessions

for three four years in a row now i'm doing one hour a day and i feel amazing and it's just also yeah where you're at in your life but yeah that's exactly what it's been for me and um i do think like when you when you take when you remove the choice to like stop competing as an individual or a team athlete or trying to go to the games, you start to realize, well, like, you know, at one time, I really did like working out six hours a day. But why do I need to keep doing that now? And then you're like, well, if I don't keep working out six hours a day, I'm not going to get fitter. And then you go back to just realizing like, oh, well, the one hour a day worked for the five years beforehand. Why the hell wouldn't it work now? And it still does. And, but you know, you gotta, you gotta ride those waves and go through that experience. Many, many years ago, um, someone said to me, where would CrossFit be without Rich? And in,

in, in them asking that they were making the implication that he was like integral to the growth of CrossFit. And I said to them, and I was in a long discussion with this person. And I said, hey, we really can't have this discussion. And they go, why? I said, because you're clearly on, we're building a bridge from two different sides of a ravine. And we're not going to connect. Like if you even, like I have to take you i'm so far not in that camp that any one person made crossfit that we're not going to be able to make this

connect because the only person i think you could ever say that about would be where would crossfit be without greg glassman but and then i hadn't heard it for a long time and then recently someone dm me this is now five years later and they said where would crossfit be without rich and matt and i responded well where and i knew that this was gonna totally go over their head and it was my test i said well my i think the real question is where would crossfit be without a stopwatch and they go what what's that mean? And, and for those of you who, who don't get that, who are listening, I'm sure it's going to come out here in a second, but I do have for the 15 years that I was with CrossFit every single day to the point of ad nauseum, Greg would talk about the vision

of CrossFit, optimize human health, optimize human performance, optimize longevity. And he would say it over and over and over. And he was always saying it in new ways. And to be quite honest, it got fucking exhausting. It was like, I was like, dude, can we just sit down and have a hamburger and like, talk about the bubbles in this, you know, sparkling water or something. But he never, ever, ever stopped talking about the vision. And I see, and I'm seeing what I want to see, I'm sure. I am concerned, concerns too strong, because I don't know if I really care. But does it matter if people lose the appreciation for what CrossFit really is? So we have a theme here now.

Some people just think it's a hodgepodge of movements. Then we didn't invent CrossFit, didn't invent anything. Greg didn't invent anything. Some people don't even know what they that he did. And they didn't even know he defined fitness. I mean, that's I understand if you've been doing CrossFit two or three years and you didn't know that. But by your fourth or fifth year, it's time to like you realize whoa this was this was a profundity that he defined fitness he added a stopwatch he was very clear on the vision and

and an unwavering vision right i mean we all who were around during the early days saw that when we signed the reebok contract two weeks later he's publicly bashing them because they're claiming they made a shoe that made people's butts firmer and and and that's not a dig at Reebok that's just you know corporate yeah that's just you know people a marketing team he was always so do you see do you have any concerns can this thing still be super potent without people knowing um what they're doing is it a naive question i'm even asking no do you think i'm just making that up do you think i'm just like hey he's he got he's got fired he's on the outside i'm just looking for what i want to see no no i'm open i'm open no and i don't think we can lose sight of um you know, that Greg created CrossFit, his contribution to defending CrossFit.

You know, it's like I do think for the longest time he was the right guy at the time. And he might not be the right guy to continue it in the future or shepherd its growth into the future. And I don't think, you know, you can lose sight of that or take that away. I think, though, what's interesting is what you're talking about. I think we've kind of always had to deal with this issue and I think it just has manifested in different ways. So, what I mean by that is in the past, CrossFit, we all knew CrossFit was so potent and awesome and could be life-changing regardless of what your fitness level was or who you were. But early on, what we had to deal with was just,

you know, other fitness areas, other fitness practices and detractors saying, you know, CrossFit's stupid. Your methodology is stupid. Your definitions are stupid. And then it became CrossFit injures people. And maybe now it becomes, you know, well, CrossFit is only the CrossFit games or CrossFit is defined by the athletes who are the most successful at the games. And it'll probably be some incorrect misinterpretation of the program in some other way in the future. But I think, you know, and I truly believe this. I think as long as what the heck is happening, whatever is happening inside of affiliates keeps happening. As long as affiliates exist.

happening inside of affiliates keeps happening as long as affiliates exist. I think as long as affiliates are going through that level one pipeline and sharing in that transmission of culture through the level one staff, I don't think the problem you're talking about will, at least in the next, you know, in my vision, in my timeline will ever become an issue where it just snuffs out what is good and what is effective about CrossFit. It's, you know, I haven't been traveling a lot over the last year, just like everybody else. But whenever I still go into an affiliate or I hear stories from affiliates that I've worked with or friends who own them, it's, I'm still hearing the same stories I heard 10 years ago. And if anything, I'm hearing more robust stories. I'm hearing these stories more

often. So, I don't necessarily think, you know, we're at that point yet. And like I said, I think as long as the affiliates are out there doing what they do, I think we'll be okay on that end. I do believe that. When you say the culture, that it's something that's um you kind of can't even know about unless you take an l1 and and my course was two days and it was amazing the knowledge that was not only transferred to me and the inspiration but it was the culture it was crazy can you tell tell me about the culture what what because people come in there like shy sheep and they leave like family members and it's just two days it's like something you don't experience unless like you're in the seventh grade and you go to a week long summer camp.

But now you're a grown ass adult and you experience it in two days. I know one. Yeah. You know, I don't know if I can actually, you know, like perfectly and explicitly codify what exactly occurs. But I can tell you what I feel when I went through and what I feel when I teach a seminar and what I want to share when I teach a seminar. But one of the biggest things I walked away from my level one was, you know, I do think there was enough humility in the seminar that we understand and the seminar staff and CrossFit coaches who run affiliates

understand that there are other ways to improve your life. You know, like I could go improve my, you know, there are other ways, but using, you know, fitness can be an amazing tool to improve your life and it can improve other areas of your life, you know, whether it's psychological and emotional, but we are just going to only focus on improving your life through movement quality. And I think that was something I really latched on to, right? The focus was relatively narrow in terms of scope. So, it allowed trainers at the level one to be really effective in delivering that information. It allows affiliate owners to be effective. And on top of that, however seminar staff has done it, you know, I think we've done an excellent job of putting people and getting people in the roles of seminar staff where they genuinely care about sharing how to improve your life through fitness with others. And that is something when you go take a level one, you can taste that.

It's obvious. It's palpable. You know, like when I had no desire to coach. I went to my level one because I was interested in fitness and I had never been interested before. And I liked training CrossFit methodology. And when I left my level one, I didn't still want to be a coach, but I was like, I want to go be that person who helps spark that desire to make myself better in others, you know, that teaches at the level one. And I think that's just one of the biggest things about it. It's just that, you know,

the people on staff and these affiliates really care about trying to help others improve their lives. And it is something that I think, you know, it's genuine in them. And if it's genuine, people recognize it immediately. And I know Greg always said this, there's also something really special. And that makes you very vulnerable when you're physically beat down, but you're emotionally supported. And I, man, I feel that in spades in my gyms, it's like, it just, and I see it in my athletes and it's every time I'm in a workout, I'm like, I start that workout and it's a fucking existential crisis. It's like time I'm in a workout, I'm like, I start that workout and it's, it's a fucking existential crisis. You know, it's like, I'm in five thrusters and I'm like, why the hell am I doing this? And you start looking around and you see other people doing it with you and you see

people cheering you on. You're like, oh yeah, that's why. You know, I always finish a workout feeling better. So I don't know, those are, I don't know, it's a rambly, but those are a couple of things I think that really help it keep moving forward and maintain that, like you said, transmission of culture. James, what do you think about the comment, if I was to say, the level one is for everyone, the level two is for coaches? I like the level one is for everyone. for everyone, I mean, it would probably be like in your best interest because what the level two is focused at, you know, it's a clinic for coaching group classes and small groups and one-on-ones. But I do think there's a lot in a level one that just basically brushes over really fundamental teaching skills, you know. And if you're someone who's in a position to teach others and you want to teach others, there's a lot of value in the level two for that. And I would say even if you're someone who's in a position to teach others and you want to teach others,

there's a lot of value in the level two for that. And I would say, even if you're just in your gym, working out on your own, and you're interested in on having that, you know, deeper layer of teaching and correcting and understanding deeper layer of our philosophy, you know, level two could be for you, but yeah, the level two is a hundred percent more aimed at, you know, having the participants come in, coach, and then giving them some constructive feedback. I wouldn't say it's only for coaches. You mentioned something. Go ahead, Brian. Yeah, because I have this question for both of you, actually. You mentioned something earlier,

James, about how, you know, you can do CrossFit and improve a lot of different aspects of your life. I remember listening to Greg one time talk about an experiment he did where he got a client, this person came in, and he said, I want you to write down on a note card any five things that you'd like to improve. And this person wrote down five things and gave the note card to Greg, and Greg never looked at it. He put it in an envelope in his drawer. He locked it. He said, I want you to give me one year. Come into my gym, one hour a day, five days a week. We're going to do what you do. What I say, we'll have

improve your diet a little bit. And a year from now, we're going to take out this note card and take a look and see if this, uh, these five things have improved, whatever they happen to be. And I, you know, I don't know if he actually ever did that or not, or if in the 28 years of experience that you guys have in CrossFit, if've ever seen someone do that that experiment otherwise I've never seen anybody do that experiment I mean I've seen it firsthand kind of happen um but I've never done that experiment no boy this is gonna I I have no way to say this except to be extreme if you if you are a human being and you don't take your level one if you don't pay the thousand dollars to take your level one if you don't write a letter to hq and beg for a free level one if you don't sneak in through the

back door and take your level one you are shorting your fucking life i cannot emphasize that enough if you have kids and you haven't taken your level one, the second, I mean, you are missing out. Why is that? Because it teaches you about struggle and adaptation and how people improve. It's in a controlled environment. It's in a supportive environment. And you learn about nutrition. And those are really the only things you need to know as a parent.

You need to know to offer your kid controlled struggle. And what do I mean by controlled struggle? Meaning you're out with them walking and they fall down and you have to be that you have to let them stand up on their own. You turn your back to your child to make sure they don't get hit by a car or bear doesn't come out of the bushes and get them. And you learn that in CrossFit, you really firsthand learn and you really, really learn to appreciate it in the level one, because they go over it in spades, ad nauseum over and over and over. And then they talk about nutrition and there's, I mean, it's obvious now with the situation, the world's in, there's nothing more important

than nutrition and your, what's interesting. I'm going to segue here and ask you this question, James. It's interesting that nutrition is at the foundation of CrossFit. And we've all heard Greg say many, many times, hey, I'm the fitness guy, and I wish I could tell you you could out-train a bad diet. But if you just follow our nutrition program, you'll make it to the fucking 95-yard line. You never even have to do any of our workouts. Just follow our nutrition program. Why is it, and maybe I don't think i'm an anomaly i think this is normal that we get all get into crossfit we get really really excited about the movements and somehow that slowly leads us you know to oh

shit maybe i should eat better you've seen it from all the athletes too right you get into crossfit at 19 years old you have this desire to go to the games. You brag about how you eat whatever the fuck you want. And then we're watching you at 26 make videos about how you prep your meals or how you're a, tell me about the relationship of what you see between human beings and nutrition. Oh man. The psychology of it a little bit. Yeah, this is, this is one I've, I've definitely learned more too. Cause my of it a little bit. Yeah, this is one I've definitely learned more too because my wife is a nutrition coach.

So, I get to kind of sit back and watch her relationship with other people and their relationship with nutrition. I think it's kind of a foot in the door principle. You know, I think – I do think oddly enough and, you know, you were talking about this, about with CrossFit, like going into your level one and why it's so important. It's one of the things that's so important is because it works and it's so freaking simple. It's so like, I'm not asking you to squat clean 225 pounds ever in your life. Does not matter. You could just do the movements with a PVC, you know, a couple of times a week. Like it's going to make you better.

Like it's that easy um but i do think from the outside looking in you know and especially with the pervasiveness of information this is a whole nother topic um and just how you're just inundated with that shit i do think from the outside looking in nutrition is super complicated i think fitness is made to look super complicated. And, you know, what's the reason behind that? I don't know. You know, I imagine in a market, you want all the people who might buy a product for to think it's complicated because you could step in and be like, I'm the savior, you know, look at my thing and here's why it's great. But I think from the outside, looking at nutrition is really complicated. And a couple of reasons, I think in the outside, looking at nutrition is really complicated. And a couple of reasons I think in CrossFit, we eventually kind of mature to that point where we can start understanding nutrition better and changing habits is one.

I do think the easier habit to change is the physical fitness habit of it. And that's because I think it's more accessible for people because we're doing it less often. And it's probably not a habit that we've... Well, in school, for example, you're like playground or PE or sports. You grow up and I think you're more accustomed to playing sports. And there's a little bit more attention to detail there or doing something physically active. Whereas nutrition, there's just no instruction on that and i said this forever the the problem with the human body is that it can eat pop tarts for a long fucking time and not die like it would be a much better scenario if you know you had some

statistic where every you know 99 times out of 100 that 10th pop tart is going to kill you. And that's not, right. That's not the case. And this is something Greg has said in CrossFit, like you can piss in the gas tank for a long time and be okay. And it's a testament to how awesome the human body is. So, hopefully where I'm going with this is I think it's easy for us to just think, well, I've been eating for the last 20 years of my life and i've been kicking ass in crossfit and i feel great and you don't make that connection that well that's just because the wave the tidal wave hasn't hit you yet you know it's back there and you've let it build up pretty big but if you start being consistent with those fitness habits it makes it easier for it to be more consistent.

You start to understand the importance of nutrition habits. And I think a lot of us, at least for me in the fitness community, I taught level ones for a really long time. And I believe there's probably five or six years of doing it. I believed in everything that we taught at the level one, but I don't think I really understood it until I saw it happen with my mom. And I think it takes people a little bit, a little bit of time being in the program, being in the community, and then seeing how it affects somebody else and pulls them back from sickness to wellness to fitness. So like I was totally in, I believed in it, but I was in my twenties. Like I was fit by virtue of the fact that I was in my twenties. Like I was the athlete who was training a lot, eating like garbage, felt great, slept

great, didn't matter. But then when I saw my mom in her mid fifties who smoked, who was starting to get older, who I was looking at, and I had this thought in my head of like, oh, this is the point in my mom's life where I would just watch her slowly get a little bit older every year and die. And then it didn't happen. She went to a level one and she was that, you know, fairy tale story. She was consistent. She put in the hard work. She listened.

She built up her intensity at her own pace. She was, you know, had a great coach. And then all of a sudden at 58, she had abs. And she's no physical specimen like she was. She's no Olympic athlete. She was just consistent. She paid attention. And, you know, she slowly made the correct physical and nutritional choices across.

She just turned 61 this year, you know, across seven years. And honestly, sometimes I swear to God, I think she's going to outlive me. seven years. And honestly, sometimes I swear to God, I think she's going to outlive me. And I think one of the big things, getting back to the point, is just that it takes time for you to be in that community and see those success stories for you to realize the impact of the eating, the nutrition lesson. And it takes time to change that habit. I think the physical habit is easier to change just because we've been eating for so long. And so often, I think it's hard for us to know whether the habits we've created in terms of eating are good or bad for us, um, until we know,

or until we see it in other people. It reminds me of like in high school, the kids who were doing all the acid and smoking weed, and they looked like they were having so fun and they were so cool and they were still getting good grades. And now I'm 50 years old or 49 years old and I see them. I'm like, oh, these motherfuckers are weird. Like it took a while for that damage to catch them. And because, you know, that that was sort of the problem with the just say no drugs campaign. You tell a 16 year old kid who's you know star on the baseball team that smoking weed's bad and he smoked weed every single day it's not registering right it's not registering

but all of a sudden he's 28 and his in his you know brain's not firing the way everyone else is who's 28 and why is that well because he's been smoking weed for 10 years and by the way just a quick note those of you who think smoking weed, okay, is fine. Every single day, the rest of us who aren't smoking weed, we, we can, you should ask us, you should ask us what we see. Yeah. Our, I was just talking to a friend about this. Yeah.

Our perception, I'm not anti weed, but I'm just telling you like our perception of time, I think is, is really, um, skewed, you knowwed as human beings. It's super skewed. It's like one, our lifespan compared to how long our country has been around or civilization is one, relatively short. And then two, it's hard to see five years in front of your face. Yeah, I feel great for the last week when I've been partying hard and doing whatever, eating like shit. But it's like, yeah, man, you're going to be here for another 50 years. You know, you're going to keep that their frame. And what do I mean by bend their frame? When you bend the frame of a car, that's it. It's done. You never unbend the frame of a car. Yeah. You can still drive it around, but your frame is bent and we're seeing people in there. I mean, I see young kids, 10, 12, 14 years old. Like if you go into Safeway or something around my house, I see kids. I mean, I see a lot of people in their twenties, but they've put on so much weight that they've actually done damage to their vehicle that will never be repaired. Now it

doesn't mean they shouldn't try, but they've done some real, real damage. They've really stretched out the, I mean, literally they've stretched out their skin, but you just know, you can see them. And once you put on a hundred pounds, you know, like that, I don't know if you guys know who Volkanovsky in the UFC is, but he put on, he weighed 240 and now he fights at 145. That's not, a lot of people can't do that. Yeah. Yeah. You, you, you, you only have one car. James, wasn't there a video of your mom doing Elizabeth that came out a few years ago? Am I thinking of the right person? Yeah. Yeah. Michael Dalton actually came out to the house through CrossFit and filmed a video with my mom and just talked a little bit about her story.

And it was really cool. Extraordinary guy, hard worker. I remember watching that. I thought maybe it was Stefan who did the video, but the production was super high quality. So I was a little skeptical. Fair, fair. James, the interviews might've been more compelling i don't know you know it's interesting as minutes before we get on i start to like get a lot of anxiety before every podcast and i always think the difference between doing the behind the scenes type of interviews and podcasts is so different because in a podcast you you don't want there to be dead air but in the behind the scenes the whole trick with the athletes is to create dead air so ask the question and no

matter what just be patient let it get as uncomfortable as possible until they answer like it's about creating space for other people to feel comfortable to finally come out of their shell whereas in a podcast i can't do that the The second I see one, you aren't talking. I'm like, okay, got to say something. I'm going to pause now just to kind of create that awkward space. How did I hear you say you own multiple affiliates? I said affiliates I've worked with. I'm only a part owner in, in one affiliate, but that affiliate has a, has a sister gym. So my partners, JC and then Austin Maliolo, we own, the three of us own CrossFit Boston. And then they both own CrossFit One Nation Needham.

And those two gyms are both One Nation gyms. It's our DBA, our Doing Business As name. And so your vocation is you're an L1 trainer and you are a gym owner crossfit boston gym owner and how many l1s have you taught i actually i don't count um and i didn't for a long time because i never wanted to know um i don't know why but but I think it's, uh, it's over 300 closing in on 400. Plus the one you attended. Plus the one I went to. Yep. Okay.

Is it the same? What has changed? What has changed in the L1 from 400, the one you attended to the one you're going to teach next week? Um, and by the way, those of you who don't know what the L1 is, I just want to tell you real quick, the L1 is basically the operating manual, and correct me if I'm wrong, James, for the human body.

I don't think that there is another one out there that's better, more comprehensive, more accessible, that's taught by people who you won't feel familial with at the end. What do I mean by familial? Every L1 I've been to, I've probably been to like 50. The coaches are there for you to talk to at lunch. They'll hang out with you afterwards. Everyone is your friend. The guy next to you who you think's a weirdo on day one in the first 10 minutes, you'll get his phone number at the end and you guys will be doing workouts together. You will learn the 22 year old super beast who doesn't

give a fuck about old people will end up leaving friends there with the 72 year old who took the course next to you and be like, holy shit, we have more in common than I ever thought. It transcends everything. And you walk away with information that you will be dying to share with other human beings and it will profoundly change your life. And even if you're one of those fucking retards who thinks that you didn't learn anything or that you were above it or didn't get anything from it, I promise you it will become valuable to some point in your life if you stop being a selfish douche. Okay. James, how has the L1 changed from day one to 400 quarters to go. I mean, I just think it's, I think that there's some truisms in the world.

The sun comes up and if you take the L1, you're going to be a better person. I don't, I just, I'm willing to die on that sword like to the end. Like, so. Yeah, me too. I've been very lucky to be, you know, it's funny too, because someone asked me.

And I'm not willing to die on a lot of swords. Like I'm not a believer of much, but sorry, go ahead, James. Is someone actually who you have done a podcast with before and you do podcasts with regularly actually asked me if I ever get bored doing level ones. And I had never, this was probably a couple of years, two years ago, two or three years ago. And I thought to myself, you know, I've never, one, never thought of that question. And then two, I was like, no, I don't get bored. And, you know, the fundamental, the foundational pieces of material are the same. We still teach the air squat the same way. Heels down, you know, knees out, chest up,

hips below parallel. Like that hasn't changed in the time I've been doing it. I would like to say what's changed is that we know what, we know better now what we do know as well as what we don't know. And I think we've polished the course in a way to communicate that more effectively. I think we've organized ourselves. The delivery of the information, I think, is better. some of the lectures. We've retooled the nutrition lecture. We've retooled the programming lecture. And I think a lot of this, the retooling isn't to necessarily say we have to come up with something new and flashy that markets well. I think it just is how do we communicate our core methodology? How do we communicate these simple life-changing tools in a more effective way to anybody who comes in. And this is probably my second favorite part about CrossFit. CrossFit would suck if it was only meant for the fittest. It would be terrible.

But it's meant for anybody who's willing to walk into your doors and wants to try it. And I think that's one of the coolest parts about it. And I've had people at the level one who had just done their first week of CrossFit. I've had people at the level one in their seventies, um, and everywhere in, but everywhere in between, you know, um, it's, uh, that's been one of the most amazing things to see is just the, the diverse set of people, life experiences coming through the level one. And what I've learned from that and from them is one of the reasons it's never felt boring to me ever, ever, ever. And I think if you're, you know, and I think of myself as if they were to say, what's your profession? I'd like to say to people that I'm a teacher. Like that's what I think of myself as is I'm an

instructor. And if you are someone who's a teacher, I think the most rewarding thing that you can see is watching a captive audience understand and appreciate what you're sharing with them. And I've always found that in a level one environment. I always find that in my affiliate environment. And whoever the powers may be will have to pry that job out of my cold, dead hands. So, you know, that's, I mean, not much has changed in terms of like the general gramorum, right? This tome of 800 pages of Greg's CrossFit Journal articles. And, you know, now it's whittled down to this beautiful hardbound book, which is the level one training manual. And it took a long time to get there. It's still the same quality of material, but it's communicated in a way that's, know a lot easier for anyone walking in the in the doors to access you said the word tool like probably 10 times that's one of my favorite words like i like uranus i like tool and then you use gomoram i have no fucking idea what that is i think that's a guy from like game of thrones or the hobbit but someone can look that up you got it that's from the hobbit he's thinking of g up you got it asking about the geek is from the hobbit

he's thinking of gamora gamora from the marvel universe from uh uh no not gamora like a gramora like a like a like the you know the necronomicon you know like a magic book savan's gonna go look it up he just got up to leave he's so blown away oh no he's just he has to pee every podcast it's part of his routine he's got to go it's go. It's only been, what, 45 minutes? James, what's your profile picture? Oh, no, sorry. I pronounced it wrong. It's Grimoire.

Grimoire. Okay. A book of magic spells and invocations. James, what's your profile picture on your game site? It's been the same as long as I've been following the sport. Oh, Jesus. Brian, I don't know. How do you even know that?

following the sport. Oh, Jesus. Brian, I don't know. How do you even know that? I have to go to the game site now, log in, and look this up just so I can see it. I'm not talking about the big profile picture. I'm talking about like the circular one in the corner. Oh, that's Optimus Prime, man, the leader of the Autobots.

Yeah, why did you pick that? Because I'm a big fan of giant robots who save the universe. I don't know why I picked that because it was a lot better looking than my skinny, skinniness up there. That's why I threw it up there. I should probably change that. No, no, I don't know if you should because what I've always interpreted it as is that that was you saying that this is a transformative program. And that's why you had a picture of a transformer that's exactly why i had it on there i mean because for a long time on instagram my profile pic was godzilla um i don't know what you want to read that into my psyche as but uh yeah i just

like that kind of stuff so that's that's why that is the way it is the fact that you picked up on that brian just reminds you of you you know, how much you know. You got eyes everywhere, man. Have you ever thought about doing commentating for the games, James? Have they ever asked you? I did do commentating for the games in 2017. Yeah, I did the regionals, and then I did the games with Jeff Brightwell. Okay.

You have a wonderfully soothing and recognizable voice. The other day when I called you on the phone, I was like, oh shit. Like I just felt like when I called you to set this podcast up, I was like, holy shit, this is James Hobart. Like that voice, I know that voice. It was a trip. Oh, thank you. Well, anytime you can't sleep, call me up.

James. James, speaking of the uh regionals in uh in 2014 regional do you remember what place you took i think it took second overall right yeah second second do you remember who beat you yeah matt did you know how good he could be that's your one right yeah did you know how good did you know how good he could be then? Matt Fraser won, right? Yeah. Did you know how good he could be then? I did. I didn't, you know. Where was that regional?

That was at Reebok headquarters? Reebok headquarters, yeah. That was the best regional. And it was outside. It was at the Reebok World Headquarters. The Reebok community and the Northeast community was just like, they would just come out in droves to support it it just and it felt like you were in like this gladiator arena it was on this hot as hell concrete that weekend was brutally hot the week everyone was burning

burning their hands of that regional on the handstand walks yeah and i don't know what their big deal was it wasn't that bad um but yeah they were burning their hands handstand walking that's a nice man like hobart saying they were pussies. I'll translate because Hobart is a gentleman of the highest order. So I'll convert, I'll translate for the rest of the group. James. So that was, that was my first year following this sport. Fraser won that one. Go ahead. No, tell me what you thought about him from that weekend. Then I have a follow-up. I mean, it was apparent how fit matt was just because there were

a couple workouts there was this i remember there was this burpee front squat handstand push-up workout which i like i think i did well on it i think i finished i don't know in the top five for that workout and i did it matt was in the lane next to me and i was like i was having one a stellar performance like i was you know hitting on all cylinders and I was two, I was trying really freaking hard and it just, I would look over to Matt and it just seemed like he was still kind of just cruising a country road in third gear. You know, he just, he just clearly, he had more and more tools in the toolbox than I did in terms of, in terms of fitness.

And, you know, he spent, but I did beat him in the handstand walk. So that's my claim, my, my personal pride i remember that but i don't think i i did beat him in another workout that weekend no you had a great weekend uh one 16th finish but everything else was six they're better but was that that stupid legless rope climb or the snatch as event five i don't know it doesn't tell me what it is here but it was also matt's legless rope climb it was also his worst event of the weekend. But I remember that regional specifically. I was just getting into the sport, but even then I was kind of aware of who the big names were

because I'd watched some of the previous game stuff. And that year, it was Matt Yu and Craig Kenney who qualified. And the next two finishers were Spencer Hendel and Asim Eliolo. And I was like, man, these guys are definitely good enough to be at the games. They should be at the games. The year before, they took five from the central region, and all five of us placed in the top 16 at the games. And I was wondering if you guys were having conversations that time.

I was like, man, I wonder if they'll ever change the format. Because Austin and Spencer are obviously good friends of yours and have been for a long time. change the format because austin and spencer obviously good friends of yours and have been for a long time about like can we you know you know if there's regionals that are more that have better athletes like can we have a system to get more of them in and it still seems to be a relevant topic of conversation yeah where we talk i mean you know individuals who are highly concerned with their with their own performance are always talking about ways to help themselves get to the games. But, um, yeah, we, we had a lot of

conversations just about, you know, this regional is better than this region. So this means that they should get more spots. I mean, we talked about that kind of stuff all the time, but at that year, I wasn't too concerned about it. Um, because in my head, that's when I started thinking about, and I remember Savan said this to me a long time ago. He said, team is where all washed up individuals go. I would never say that. You would never. Maybe it wasn't you. You should fact check that then. I'm pretty sure that's accurate. Honestly, I think about that saying all of the time.

I'm not sure I necessarily agree because you're one of, you're an example, and there are several others, including potentially most notably Pat Veldner and Jamie Green, and now Simmons, who first made the games on a team, and then they were able to make the transition to qualifying as an individual. I like that I know something about me that you don't. Maybe I shouldn't like that. You competed at the game. I made it first as an individual in 2009 and 2010. But that was when like, I don't want to say anybody could make it because I don't want to take away. That was still like an important accomplishment for everyone who made it and won. But you were at the 2009 games, James. Yeah. But I sucked, Saban. I got cut after. And that's actually, you know, anyway, I got cut after the deadlift. And it was, you know, this was a really important moment realizing, hey, it's okay to work on your weaknesses.

Two, if you find failure, it's going to happen. You just have to learn how to learn from it and understand that it's a part of the whole process, not that like you're never going to fail. So does this new information that you've given me now, which I did actually have documented, does this mean that you were a washed-up games individual two times? I was a washed-up games individual before that was even a thing. Yeah, 2010, and then I did Team 11 and 12 and 13, Individual 14, and then Team. I just found some new coattails to ride. I had had enough of Boston,

and I rode down to Tennessee and competed with Mayhem. Oh, wow. You might say coattails to ride, but you were definitely an integral part of that team. That's why I said the coattails thing, is because I just wanted to get you to say that. Thank you. I mean, I remember watching.

I was actually, you don't know this. I was in the front row center of the 2016 games. That was the year they had the, I think, the six-part individual finals and you you know i think it was like the same workout but each individual had to you had to choose who was going to go and heat one two three for the girls pegboard pegboard and thruster yeah and so yeah and i think all three of the men on mayhem pretty much dominated their heat in that workout yeah we did well. Who is the third man?

Matt Hewitt. And you're not on the Mayhem team anymore. Matt's not on the Mayhem team anymore. I mean, I hope I'm not. Cause if I am, I've missed the last three months of practice. Now I stopped competing with Mayhem in 2016. So James, let's talk about that a second. And we'll, and we'll like not make it so i'll lessen the phrase it's where games

athletes washed up game games athletes go to die but what is the distinction there's obviously what is the distinction between going team and going individual to you to to i guess you can only speak about yourself but if you want to speak broad i like broad i like people who make assumptions and just blanket statements but um what is the difference what's the mindset difference what's the perseverance is there more pressure because you feel like you have to work hard for your team members is there less pressure because you can hide when you fail is Is it what, what is. Yeah.

There is a smoking gun that it's easier, right? Because if it wasn't easier and I can't speak for Rich, but if it was easier to go individual, then you would assume that he would have just kept going individual that he didn't go team for some benevolent reason. Yeah. I do feel like, you know, and I think this gap will change a little bit, you know, as you see more and more drawn to the sport and competitive side. One more thing. One more thing. And there is a distinction between going from team to individual because then you're clearly using that team to sharpen your tool. But then there's a different distinction from when you go from individual then,, Oh, here's, here's the loaded phrase back down to team. Yeah. Okay. Sorry. Go ahead.

No. And I definitely think earlier on, it was easier to go on team because a lot of people would do it. And a lot of people would say things like, Oh, so-and-so is a good team athlete, which basically meant they're really good at one or two things, but they have these two giant glaring holes that they're unable to fix. And so we're going to have another person on the team who can fill those. I think that's less of the case now. I think the quality of competition on the team side has only started to elevate. From my experience, man, I don't know if I trained less in 2015, 2016

than I did in 2014. We might have trained less, like put less time in overall. But the training was far more intense in 2015 and 2016, for me at least, because it was one of the first times I was training with the sole intent of we're going to win the CrossFit Games. And so I think if you're really going to train with that vision, that intent, I think the training between individual and team is very similar. My sense is that there is more time spent on the body as an individual. I think your training can be, it will be a little bit more rigorous. The volume will be a little bit higher.

And that's just because more of it falls on you. I think from that aspect, it's just, it is a little bit more, you know, a little bit more intense. Let me ask you this though. Is there anything you can do to train as an individual that can prepare you for the pain of the worm yeah don't be a don't don't be a dickhead oh i like this i don't like this you know educate me don't make me assume you guys know something about the worm i don't know no give me the worm is hard the worm is uncomfortable but it was no harder or no more uncomfortable than uh anything you would do on your own but the nice thing what you're when you're on your own um you don't have anybody else

to blame you know when you're there and you fail to snatch on the games floor you don't you can't you can't turn around and look at sally and be, Sally, it's your fault that the worm is hard. And I, you know, I didn't notice this. Tell me about what the worm is real quick. The worm is like, well, probably was it like it's six segments long. Now there's a four segment one and each segment of the worm, you know, weighs somewhere between 50 and 70 pounds. And it's just like, it's like a giant hot dog. It's like a giant hot dog slash pillow, you know, and you can do various things with it. You can carry it on your shoulder as a team. Everyone can hold it on your shoulder and you can squat. Everyone can lift it together. But needless to say, it requires, if you have six people lifting it, a lot of coordination

and communication between your team and practice to do this well. And it's easier. It's, you know, it's the worm, you know, and the reason I said, I didn't notice this until I commentated, but one of the things I think we did really well at Mayhem, regardless of our fitness, is that we were very comfortable with things going wrong. And we weren't very likely to turn around and blame somebody else when something was going wrong. Our response to difficulty wasn't, well, whose fault is it? Our response to difficulty as individuals was, well, what can I do to help the team out? What can I do to resolve this problem?

And I didn't notice this until I commentated and I got to see the epic meltdowns that teams would have during the worm. And it turns out if Sally's really struggling as your team is doing, you know, synchronized burpees over the worm, the solution is not to scream at her. And when you see that go down, you know, it seems like a great idea when you're down there like, well, Sally's moving slow. I'm just going to yell at her as much as I can to get her to move faster. It seems like a great idea. And I think anyone who's been a part of a successful team kind of understands this concept. But that was like one of the best lessons I learned from the worm team competition was, you know, you can't be a dick.

When I would be down there filming, you know, people doing the worm and I would see the teams have a meltdown it was kind it was the meltdowns were so bad that I couldn't even believe that they were a team like the way they turned on each other I was like holy shit this is fucking intense I can't even believe like I mean

it was nuts it was nuts yeah if anyone gets a chance to talk to the judges who judged the games and regionals for teams and just, hey, run me through some stories of meltdowns you saw. Their stories are just wonderful. James, do you like the return to the Affiliate Cup this year? Oh, yeah, I do a lot. I like the return to the Affiliate Cup a lot. And actually, one of the things I didn't like about team competition is how teams started naming themselves like these like goofy, you know, names like NASCAR taglines of sponsors. And this is just world according to James, right or wrong, who the hell knows. You're always right, James. Yeah.

You're L4, baby, L4. That's all it takes. And I've been right for a while. No. I like seeing, you know, affiliates represented by their members and athletes. I just, I thought that was a really cool idea. It's super inspirational. You know, obviously, I'm a very big fan of, you know, affiliates and the affiliate model.

So, it was something that I really always loved. and the affiliate model. So, it was something that I really always loved. And I liked seeing, you know, CrossFit mayhem rather than, you know, I don't know, just some, you know, six sponsors names in a row. Yeah. And it's cool also with just the history, you know, the affiliate cup didn't really mean it. It didn't really matter. You couldn't really give someone the affiliate cup last year and feel like or two years ago and feel like that was an appropriate title for the trophy. And it's really cool for people in an affiliate to get behind that. I think, um, it's a, you know, it's a, it's a really fun thing to be a part of. And, you know, look at how crazy people get about hometown sports teams, you know, and imagine if you were able to train alongside

that sports team all year long, and then what is the level of support and desire to go cheer them on? It's huge. So yeah, I'm really excited for that. I've always been a really big fan of the games. For me, the Open is something I absolutely love. It's our annual who is fittest test. I feel like it's adult Christmas every week. They announce a workout that you don't know. I wish the Open was 10 weeks long and I know that the logistics behind that would be crazy, but I love the not knowing. I love the workout coming out. I love the fact that my mom can do it and you can go on a leaderboard. You can compare your score with, you know, everyone else in the world. I just think that's so fun, you know, to be a part of it in a, in a bigger way. way james you want to know some huge some fun

facts about the leaderboard yeah i don't think you've ever been worse than 200th worldwide in the open yep that's pretty cool wow wow that's insane dude that is amazing it is it is really cool because uh you know that you're not not a good or bad thing, but you're not a name. That puts pressure on me now for this year. Well, the other fun fact is that you're currently sitting 30th worldwide, and this year is open for your age division. I did notice that by chance the other day. How old are you, James? I'll be 35 in June.

there are a lot of how old are you james i'll be 35 in june that's a good thing that's a good time of year to have a birthday if you're trying to be competitive in a master's division because you'll always be have the advantage one month before yeah and i honestly i i saw that the day and i was talking my wife and i were about to work out and i said hey you know i'm 30th in my my age group and i said man i didn't even think about competing in an age group. And now, you know, I'm not as diligent. I haven't been in the last couple of months as diligent in my training as I would like to be and as I would like to be if I was competing. But I'm going to keep retesting these open workouts and see what happens. Well, this is pretty cool. Let me give you a list of people who are all currently in the top,

I think, 100 in that age division. Dan Bailey, Guido Trinidad, Jordan Trojan, Julian Serna, Kyle Kasperbauer, Blair Morrison, Joe Scaley, Jason Smith, Adrian Conway, Nick Block, Daniel Tominski, Miko Arompa, and James Hobart. That's a pretty cool list. Holy crap. That's a posse. thought so do you say bridges

i think his name's on there oh bridges will never compete masters so i omitted him from the list that's just that's according to him yeah yeah that's i mean that's that's like some old guard competitors that's pretty cool that's that's really cool where where is josh where is my boyfriend in the um he's my boyfriend in the 35? We can look him up real quick. Because, James, I don't remember what year. Whatever the first year was that I saw that my name was in an age category too, even though I started CrossFit at 34, they didn't have the 35-year-old masters.

I remember tripping. I remember like, wait, what am I doing up there in that group? I mean, I was still like 20,000, whatever it was. it was but i was like holy shit i'm in an age group it is a little bit shocking right he's in 20 he's in 23rd overall or in that or in um james's category 23rd category 23rd in the 35 to 39 after the first week wow okay well done josh Well done, Josh. I'll make sure to, I'll make sure to clip this and put it on my Instagram. He would love to know that he's 23rd in his age group. You know, it's funny though. I don't, I don't feel, um, I don't feel old or obviously I'm the oldest I've ever been,

but, um, my body feels like the best it ever has. Um, there are some things like, I'm just like like I can't squat clean what I used to squat clean. And I don't think right now I could snatch my best snatch. But, you know, like there are certain things I'm just as fit at. There are some things I'm better at than I ever was. I feel super healthy. But I will say that the only time is I have a friend. We have a couple who are really good friends of ours.

And she just had her 25th birthday. And I'm like, oh fuck, I'm 10 years older than you. When I think of stuff like that, because so much happens in 10 years and I'm like, when you were five, I was 15. When you start doing that math, that's where I start to kind of be like, all right, I'm getting some good experience under me now. Like I'm getting some good years lived. Like, and I, you know, it's just the last five years I've really started to think about that. It took a while to get me there.

Wait another 10. Yeah. Right. Then you're really going to trip. You know, there's this crazy, uh, this is off subject, but there's just, there's a lot, a lot of statistics that come out. They'll compare people's wealth by their race. So they'll be like the average Jewish American makes this much money and the average Puerto Rican makes this much money

and the average Armenian makes this much money. But none of that information is relevant unless you know the median age of that demographic that you're comparing. And so I saw the other day like the median age for Puerto Rican in the United States was 25 and the median age for puerto rican united states was 25 and the median age for a jewish person was 50 but then we when i was 25 i was fucking homeless when i'm 50 i'm balling in the 300 montclair hat and the fucking philson jacket on my 13 000 iMac not that i'm bragging and my glasses from the four seasons because i've been wondering why you've been wearing it this whole like why is he wearing a hat this whole time?

But you look good in that hat. Cause my hair is thinning. No, I'm just kidding. You're going to have that hair forever. Oh my God. I put the nose and the hair on. It's just a giant in the, in the beard. It's just glasses. They go on. Oh no, man. You look good. But, but, but, but that's a good little lesson for people out there who who get confused between correlations and facts and just don't be manipulated don't just see

something don't just see that it's a lot of old people dying from covid and forget that they've also been drinking soda pop for 30 years more and that age is just a correlate and by no means even a top five correlate. That's my PSA. James has a, I was, I was waiting for it. I was waiting for it. Go ahead.

Go ahead, Brian. I got, I got a doozy that I don't even know. I got a doozy. I just have a question. I've always, I always like to ask people if I think it's potentially ever happened to them. James has Dave Castro ever surprised you by asking you to test a workout for the CrossFit Games? Wait, wait, wait, wait,

before you answer that, what do you mean surprise? Like Chase Ingram tells a story where he shows up at the Games to commentate and he gets off the plane and he has a message from Dave that says, are you in California yet? And he says, yes. And he goes, come to the pier. And he gets off the plane and he has a message from david says are you in california yet and he says yes and he goes come to the pier and he gets out of his car and david goes swim around the pier as fast as you can and jay said no no warning about this um i i've had nothing that drastic i've had a couple times i mean i do remember one time we tested uh the standard which was the 20 that was two years ago 2019ey. It was 30 clean and jerks, 30 muscle-ups, 30 snatches at 135. Probably one of my favorite, all-time favorite games finishes to watch and events to watch at the games. But I do remember Dave asked me to come down to the ranch.

I was in California. I was out there to test and film some content for CrossFit seminar staff. And Dave had me come down to the ranch and I walk in the ranch and it'd been a long day. I was pretty tired. And he goes, all right, you ready to do this? And I was like, right now? He goes, yep, let's go. And I said, give me five minutes to warm up. And I literally loaded up a barbell and he just looks at me and he goes, you ready to do this?

And that's how most, most of my experience with testing goes. It would be like, Hey, you know, I'd be out at the office in, in Santa Cruz or Scotts Valley. And I'd give a test text from David, like, Hey, can you test something? I said, yeah, I have time at lunch. And I'd walk in and he'd be like, all right, you're ready to go. I'd be like, yeah, cool. Let's do it. But no, no, no really big surprises, but testing's always really fun. It's, it's one of my favorite things I've been able to do for various reasons. I really like it. And it's just really cool to see that side of that, the sport from that side of it.

It's super fun. Siobhan's watching me suffer through some testing before. Ooh, this last time I saw you testing was brutal. Brutal. And that was hard about that too, is I was, you know, asked to test some hard shit and I was certainly not at like, it was a low point in my fitness. And you're pretty hard on yourself to be honest. I mean, like the, the, the,

the elite athlete CrossFitter in you that I don't see that just in my normal, just interactions with you, wherever we would just brush shoulders in the, you know, in the ecosystem. But when you get behind the weights, you're, you're, you're serious as a heart attack. Like you, I could tell you were putting a ton of pressure on yourself. I mean, which was cool. I'm not saying it as a bad thing. It was cool to see it. I think that, and I also, it's like for me in, in what competing and CrossFit gave back to me, if I have a chance to help improve the process, the testing process, like for what the sport means to me if i have a chance to help improve the process the testing process like for what the sport means to me is is fucking immense like when i test a workout i take it so seriously because

it's like i want to be able to give and sometimes maybe dave's just watching me to suck you know watching me to enjoy me watch suffering but i don't think that's the case i don't think so either yeah i i want to give back something to the sport. That's really like, I want to get it right. You know, cause it's like, it's so important to me. It matters a lot. So I'm glad it comes across as serious, even though there was that one, there was no music and I listened, Boz yawned at me while I was doing GHC sit-ups.

That was devastating. And Dave, Dave, sometimes in the testing, he'll just cut you off mid workout and say, stop, we're going to do something different. Does that ever happen? he'll just cut you off mid-workout and say, stop, we're going to do something different. Does that ever happen? Um, I don't think he stopped me in a workout, but we did have stuff we kind of changed on the fly. And we also had stuff like we do a short sprint, maybe like, all right, we're going to do that

again right now. Um, I've seen him do that to people, Brian. It's usually if they're shit in the bed, you have to really be, if you're, have you ever seen him do that to someone, James, or they're like mid-workout he's like all right take a seat or or he walks over and strips weights off you know and i'm just like oh they're getting torn up yeah it's stressful i mean you if you've been a a compat if you're compassionate human and you've competed in the sport and you care about it like it's stressful because you really you want to get it right you know it's like fun you get fun and you get behind the scenes, but it's, I don't know. I feel a massive pressure whenever I've tested, you know, like just, I can't mess this up.

Yeah. You're setting the bar for, for the test, right? You're the tool that sharpens the tools. You're the, yeah. I'm going to tell you a quick story. It's a little bit long and then I want to put it in, in respect to your experience working out at crossfit mayhem and with those someone is dedicated to his craft is rich froning there there's recently been like a big hug of blue uh in um in the ufc world there's a guy who's a representative monster energy drink i think his name is hans mollen camp and this guy watched a video yesterday while i was riding the assault bike. And it was a photographer who used to work for him. And he was saying that he got paid a ton of money to work for Monster Energy Drink. And Hans was his direct report or no, he was Hans's direct report. He reported to Hans as his boss. And he talked

about how he was at a, he said he got paid a ton of money. He's in his thirties. He said he was new. He couldn't believe he got the job. Um, he was just, you know, he learned, it sounds like he's a self-taught photographer. Um, everything was falling in place. And, um, he was at his nephew's sporting event, football game or whatever. And Hans called him on a Saturday and said, Hey, I need you to come to LA right now and shoot something. And he's using that to complain about this guy, Hans Molenkamp. And I don't know what the bigger picture is, but the story really resonated with me that this guy would say that he got paid a ton of money. He had this incredible opportunity as a photographer, the very few photographers get, and now he's complaining that, um, and Hans is

clearly very successful, um, at what he does he does, whether he does it the right way or the wrong way. I'm not judging there. But this guy's complaining that he was called from his nephew's football game on a Saturday. people like if I was um if I was with my kids and I worked for CrossFit HQ and Greg Glassman were to call me and say or Dave were to call me or Nicole were to call me or one of my like my peers were to call me or Bruce or whoever and was like hey we need you to do this meeting we need you to do some you know this or that I would stop everything I'm doing and do it because I know that my and my lifestyle and everything I know is based on the fact of – like these people aren't asking me because they're half-assed people.

He's not asking me. They're not – like Greg's never like – or Dave would never be like, hey, come to the ranch and film James Hobart just to fuck with me or because he's being rude to me. It would be because you just happen to be in town. You're going to do the demo and you need someone there. And we're all a team and I make a shit ton of money and i'm blessed to have this job like you just have to when you're with the best in the world at something you have to be willing to like you have to change your

assessment you can't be bitching that you didn't get a two-week vacation like you really have to go to that next level and you have to keep reminding yourself that you're working with the best. I can't imagine that it's, I, regardless of what it's like to train at mayhem, I think undoubtedly, unless he's fucking taking people into the basement and electrocuting their genitalia, it's an honor no matter what. We did that once. Oh, okay. Well, then maybe it's not an honor. But I have to imagine it's an honor and there has to be things that challenge people beyond what they expected because they're not used to working with someone who clearly is at

the tip of the spear. Like there's going to be the unknown challenges that come with working with someone like Rich Froning, a Matt Fraser, a Tia, and it's stuff that you can't even imagine because it's from the outside. And so am I correct in assessing that? Especially since there's been, you know, a little bit of, you know, there was the Matt came out and basically talked about his grievances with Rich. And then I think Matt Hewitt also came out. Maybe Rich just has something against people with the name Matt. But in all of my experiences with Rich, even through any drama that was with HQ, he was always one-on-one with him. I'm not talking about the Mayhem Empire. I'm just talking about one-on-one with him.

I've always experienced a familial relationship. And he's always been personally one-on-one when I'm looking in his eyes, a great dude, but I never trained with him. I was never under his tutelage. I was never part of that mayhem empire, but I'm just trying to paint a picture here for people who, cause I, without judgment, what, what are the challenges or what was it like? How many years were you there? And what was it like working with this team? And you said something earlier, there's a difference between it's a, and it sounds like it's a split hair difference between training to be the best you can be, which is what you've probably done your whole life versus what you said. You're training with the singular vision to win the CrossFit

games. Can you, anywhere you want to dig in on that subject? No, I don't want to boil it down to a sentence, but like great success takes great sacrifice and great obsession. And I don't think a lot of, and I, and they know it's, and anyone, you know, any athlete, or if I meet somebody at a seminar, who's like, Hey, I want to be a games athlete. The first question I ask is like, cool. Do you have a full-time job? They're like, yes. I'm like, great. Or how much are you willing to quit that job? You know, because I do think, you know, and what's really cool is when you're around people who are really successful at one specific thing. I mean, you know, guys like Rich still is in the

sport. Guys like Matt retiring, whatever. They are the absolute best at a singular thing. And when you get around people like that, you do start to understand that there is this tunnel vision toward the goal. And I love hearing when athletes talk about this kind of stuff from any sport or anyone who's really successful at a certain thing about how focused they are and about how many different areas of their, you know, there's no discussion about balance, you know, oh, my life's so balanced and I spend time here and I, you know, it's like there's no talk about that. You know, if you look at somebody, I love do when they do things very well, when they're great at it, is it looks easy. You know, you talk about, you know, someone like Nicole Carroll and her presentation in CrossFit and when she does her tips videos and when she speaks to us on seminar staff, I'm just like, wow, Nicole Carroll was born doing this.

The longer I've known her and seen her prepare at her to be excellent, you start to understand like, oh, you know, yes, she has great talent and great personality. But there's also something else going on here. When you see someone like Rich who's had the success he's had in the sport, sure, maybe he has some genetic lottery that he won, you know, and was a little bit better at than you. But also, you know, and I remember we would finish a day of training and we'd be getting ready to eat dinner. And I lived down there for two years on and off. And Rich would look at me and he'd be like, we need to go for a run. And in my head, I'm like, it's fucking 10 o'clock. We're watching whatever TV, you know, we just ate, you know, whatever. I'm getting ready to go to bed. I've changed. I've showered.

All right. We're going for a run. And it's really cool to be around that, especially if you have the same mindset. And I felt like I had that same mindset. Like I was willing to do anything to win. And I wanted to win so badly. And every training day, I was okay with walking away from the year and someone being like, well, you know, you should have trained more handstand pushups. I was okay with someone saying I didn't train correctly. I was not okay for me to walk away from the year and say, you know, I, I, you know, I have, I have so much energy left to train more. I wanted to walk away from the season and say, I have nothing left. I gave everything I have with the tools I had and what I

know tools for you. Um, and what I knew to get, you know, to get this job done. And that was the attitude we took toward it. And the longer you do it, you get smarter, you get more educated, you learn more tricks, you reach out to other coaches. But in terms of just raw effort and attitude toward effort, it's hard to be around if you're not on that same wavelength. It's really hard to be around. What's hard about it? You can't even – is it like just so foreign? And I want to throw one more thing. I recently heard Ben Bergeron on a podcast and he was making the distinction between passions not enough. You need obsession. And you use that word obsession too. So what's difficult about being around that? And feel free to state the obvious difficult about being under that i think it's because you're not a lot of people are willing to sacrifice the comfortability that doing having balance in their life gives them to be obsessed about that one thing

you know it's an uncomfortable thing and the other hard thing about obsession is everyone else until they see your success everyone else is going to tell you your obsession is stupid, is wrong. It should be balanced. And the reason that is, is because if you look across the population, not a lot of people, and maybe this is a good thing, but not a lot of people have the willingness, the drive, the ability, the tools, the, the, the upbringing to be obsessed about something. And until you get that success, if you're obsessed about something, the tools, the, the, the upbringing to be obsessed about something. And until you get that success, if you're obsessed about something, you know, everyone, and everyone is a naysayer to detract about it because it's so drastic to watch. It's so stark to see, and it makes other people

uncomfortable. So it's hard to ride through that and stay committed to it because everyone else is telling you it's wrong. Oh, you shouldn't be training. You should be spending time with your family. You shouldn't be training. You're beating up your body too much. You're not going to be healthy when you get older. Oh, you shouldn't be, you know, working a hundred hours a week because you should spend time at your family. You know, like how successful is your company actually going to be? And it's so, it's so true. And it's so cliche, but it's like, you know, you have to be a little crazy. You have to be a little bit obsessed to be able to block that stuff out and stay focused on that goal. Because everyone who is obsessed might not make it to that, you know, extreme success, might not get that amazing achievement. But I'll tell you this, if you are not obsessed, you're not even going to come fucking close, not even going to come close.

obsessed you're not even going to come fucking close not even going to come close and i get fired up talking about it because when you are around it and you are in it it's and once you get used to it it is super empowering it's almost addicting um it's hard to let go of but um it that's the thing and if you're not someone who is who's willing to be in that environment it's really off-putting it's really off-putting being around someone who's so driven toward a single goal unless you have that same goal in mind. James, I got two questions about your training with Rich. Yeah. One is did you feel when you first started doing that like there was a certain period of time where you had to prove yourself that you could hang in that environment?

I never felt like I had to prove myself to hang in that environment. Rich and I had a pretty good friendship leading up to the point where we decided we wanted to do a team together. But I will say this. It was sort of like there was this dog eat dog, you know, this Lord of the Flies pecking order. Because Rich wasn't the only fit guy down there. You know, it just seemed to be the case that like everyone else down there was fit. So, if you wanted to stand out, you had to push yourself to be the case that like everyone else down there was fit so if you wanted to stand out you had to push yourself to be better i mean matt hewitt trained down there and he was a multi you

know multi-times regional competitor and dre strong and easy muhammad when he was down there i mean just like every everyone was fit yeah and people would come through and visit rich who were fit yep but you but you did stand out a little bit i think uh you have a lot of feature videos Everyone was fit. Yeah, Dan. And people would come through and visit Rich who were fit. Yep. But you did stand out a little bit, I think. You have a lot of feature videos on YouTube of you and Rich doing workouts. Do you remember what the impetus for Fantasyland was? Heber. Really? Heber was the impetus.

Yeah. So, Rich had toyed around with the idea of taking this team games workout where each team athlete did some version of Fran 21-15-9 thrusters and pull-ups. They did like a one – each version got a little bit heavier and more difficult. And so, there's three Frans essentially and that was the fantasy land. And Rich toyed around with the idea of wanting to do the workout. And Heber was down there filming. He was making Rich's documentary, that documentary at the time. And he was about to leave and Heber, you know, this was 8 p.m. at night. This is what people don't know about Fantasyland. This was the thing that we did after we had showered, ate dinner, sat down. Rich was

like, or Heber was like, I really want to film fantasy land. And Rich goes, all right, we'll do it. That's what we did. We went out to the garage at eight o'clock at night, whatever, nine o'clock at night and film that bit, film that workout. But that's how it rolled. I mean, that's, that's just, you know, that's how it rolled. Can you, this obsession going back, this obsession, can you transfer it? You know, this is something I think about a lot. Because I've learned a lot of valuable life lessons in CrossFit. I've learned things like, you know, discipline toward a certain goal. I've learned things like, you know, how do you endure failure, learn from failure, make yourself more tolerant to failure when it occurs?

I've learned a lot of really excellent life lessons where if I could just transfer them to other parts of my life, I feel like it would all come together. But sometimes soft skills are really hard to port. So, does the obsession transfer? I think it depends on who you are. I think you can be somebody who finds something in your life that you are passionate and obsessed about and driven to and you will go chase that thing down like hell or high water. But then you might be someone who once that thing goes away, it takes you a while to find that next thing. You also might just be somebody who has that obsessive- Heroin? Heroin? to heroin. There you go. Or you might be someone who just has that obsessive personality where it's like anything you do while you're doing it, you're just absolutely mad about it. And I think one of the things I've learned as far as trying to be that obsessed about a thing again is not necessarily going out and find new things that you should be obsessed about.

It's take a catalog of what you're doing in your life and cut out all the shit that you're actually not interested in and parse it down to those bare minimum things. And I think it makes it a lot easier for that, I don't know if you want to call it a skill, but that trait to manifest when you're not worried about so much other stuff. I lost three of my first three three lost is maybe another right word. I parted ways with my first three partners in film work a few years with one,

a few years with another, a few years with another because they weren't as obsessed as I was. They weren't actually obsessed at all. Yeah. An example would be we're in the middle of making a movie and someone goes on vacation for two weeks like i like first of all i could never go on vacation in the middle i could never enjoy vacation knowing i'm coming back to finish a movie and in two it just seems like like ludicrous to me or we would go somewhere we would go to let's say boulder colorado colorado for five days of filming and while we were there they would take a day off to go hiking and i'm like like what do you mean we came here to film and edit and like

and so those things um i get what i i empathize i i can't imagine what it's like there especially now because i this the mayhem thing has gotten so big and it sounds like that there's a pretty, um, uh, like, like rich has a lot of wraparound support and that there's a lot of people like around him, um,

as opposed to like having direct access to rich when I knew him, when it was really just kind of just the rich and Hillary show. Um, but I, but I also sympathize with any time I hear anything about him, I really, really try to, I do remember like being around obsessed people, being around people who are winners. It's like people will attack them or have issues with them, but like, hey, that's what comes with that. Like that's the problem with having birds. You know,

they're really cool until you realize that every time you let them out of the cage, they're going to shit all over your house or Godzilla would make a great friend. But every time he sneezes, he destroys everything you own. Yeah. It's like, well, dude, you can't have it both ways. This is, you know, so, so I, it's nice. I appreciate you sharing that, that, yeah, there is that there is an obsession and those are great examples you gave of like, Hey, you, you have to be on board with that singular vision. Does that mean eating something and doing something as crazy as fantasy land or going on a run in the middle of the night?

These aren't even isolated incidences. This is the right yeah it was a hundred percent the norm it was you know and you you also i mean you see the i don't want to say collateral damage and sorry one more thing and who is anyone and who is anyone to complain about that yeah right i mean i mean i'm not saying that there aren't things to complain about him but like you signed up for it well that was that was the other thing too and i just think i think people are so used to, you know, you're just used, not a lot of people are like that. And when you see something that is not like you or stands out, it's like, you know, unfortunately the first reaction of most of us isn't to be like, oh wow, that's so cool. You know, it's to kind of attack it or point out

what's wrong with it, you know, or question it, which, which, you know, for whatever reason is, is kind of a bummer. Cause there's also, you know, there's a lot of great lessons to learn there and you can't appreciate it. If your first reaction is just like, well, it's different. So it's stupid. They're just doing it wrong. You know, and it paid off for him. A hundred percent. And it still is, you know, I texted him recently. We were chit-chatting, you know, cause I was, I was laughing, you, because I was laughing. That answers that question, Brian. They're still friends, so we don't have to ask that. Okay, go on. So you text him.

Yeah, because he's competing this year with two athletes from CrossFit Team OC3 and CrossFit Team OC3, who is a big competitor of ours at regionals. And we were laughing about that. And I said, man, you're crushing it down there. And he was saying, yeah, he's like, you know, I was like, I think I got a couple more in me. And I said, rich from the outside looking in, it seems like you have 10 more in you. You know, it's just like, um, you know, Before I cut them loose here, Brian, do you have anything else you want to,

something that we could make James feel uncomfortable and turn red? I already red I'm Irish like a bad lighting no man this has been awesome I really have enjoyed this conversation it's cool to get the different perspectives that you bring to the space there are you know some people like you that have been around a long time that have these different like buckets or arenas of the space that they fit into but they're few, they're few and far between and you get access to them all the time, but not everyone always gets to talk to them and hear from them. So it's, and including me. So it's been really fun. I'm glad to hear that. I've been waiting to have a podcast with, with Siobhan and you for a while. So, um, I'm

super excited to finally be here. Siobhan was a lot nicer than I thought. He played really nice today. Well, the reason why is because you're, I like you. Thank you. I like you too. No, no, but I'll go after people. I mean, I really like Josh too, and I fucking slam him in his anus all the time. But I also, there's that delicate balance between

you're on the inside doing the good work from the inside and i'm trying to do the good work from the outside and i don't want to i'm avoiding conversation that would make it challenging where i would put you in a spot to say anything negative you know i'm not i'm not interested in like um i'm not interested in in doing anything to hamper your ability to do your good work. You know what I mean? I appreciate that. Um, uh, final question. You're, you're married. I am. why what what what what made you think that you should get married why did you get married what what what's the point of getting married what is marriage i i mean i i'll sum this up easily i mean

there's to try not to stammer like me trying to both of us can't be stammering yeah no no no um it was contagious the two things i found someone whose life I wanted to be a passenger in for as long as possible. That was thing one. And the second thing is I found someone who I wanted to be in a partnership with and build something. I wanted to be in build something myself, our relationship, watch her build together. I mean, that was it. And it was it was to some extent something like I was like, oh, can't quite explain, you know, you don't know you till you feel it kind of thing. But those are the two big things. Like I just, I met my wife, Cassandra, and actually it was after that rope climb event at 2014 regionals. And I just was like, I'm really interested to watch her life grow. And I want to see as much of it as possible. Cause I've missed a lot of it so

far. And, you know, since then it's just been trying to get to the point where we can continue to do that successfully for each other but why do you have to get married why couldn't you just like like by married I mean like like you guys had a ceremony and like someone like you guys like did sign some papers with the government and shit like that right yeah it's it's funny I was actually you know and I've been someone who's always been really against this idea that like the marriage is what makes it legitimate. Um, me too. And I don't just want to say we, we, we got married just be, you know, cause it's like, you can be married and still be a really shitty partner and do all the wrong things. Um, and you can not be married and do all the right things and stay with somebody and

have a really successful relationship throughout your entire life. So, it wasn't to me as if like the marriage is what made the relationship. I think for both of us, it was just something we both really wanted to do. And I don't want to say, you know, it's not like it was just the smart thing to do from a, you know, from like a finances standpoint because that certainly wasn't it. But it was just another adventure that we really wanted to take together and participate in together. You wanted the experience of getting married and you found someone who wanted that experience too. Yeah. Um, your parents are divorced. They are. i yeah and is your dad still alive i believe he is okay you don't see your dad uh no um super important to stay married yeah if you if you

have kids yeah super duper important not all of them are going to turn out like you parents who get divorced don't have kids like you you're really like a fucking outlier i have an amazing my you know the the network of mentors i found in my life and my mother you know and and now you know my wife you know it's just it's have been able to share with me a lot of the things in the world i think i would have missed out on because of my parents getting divorced. I didn't want to get married and I didn't want to have kids. And then I had kids. And then I was concerned that if one of us died, it would be just easier legally if we were married. And then we got married and we just got married in a courthouse, but like, they still like the lady comes out. It was pretty, it was pretty amazing too. She was, I don't remember where

she was from, but she was Asian. She had a crazy strong accent. It was hard to like understand like what she would like, what we were supposed to repeat that she said. But then at the end, I think she was Chinese. She gave us like a Chinese blessing too, to our marriage. And it was, I was actually like quite moved by, she gave it her all. Do you know what I mean? Like she cared about us, even though it was some weird courthouse marriage. And I was actually like, here's my Jewish wife and I'm Armenian and this Chinese lady is getting us married. And she said something in Chinese. And then she translated it for us, something about love. And I was like, wow, this is really cool.

But since then, there is something different about my relationship with my wife. I can't – it's very nuanced, but I'm so happy we're married. Yeah, me too. I'm so happy. Yeah, me too. I'm happy you're married, but I'm happy happy we're married. Yeah. Me too. I'm so happy. Yeah. Me too. I'm happy you're married, but I'm happy I'm married too. It was like the first time I cried in front of people in a long time in my life. Like I was, uh, I, my wife held it together pretty well. I was, I was, I was, um, and I'm, I'm, I'm experienced at speaking in front of groups.

I was a mess at my wedding. Um, but yeah, I was super happy we did it. It was so fun. And, um, kids. Hmm. Kids, you know, it's funny cause I was actually hoping you wouldn't ask this question because, um, and the only reason is cause I just don't know yet. And I don't, you know, we talk, we talk about it. It's it. It's something we talk about a lot. I think I personally have a lot of strong feelings about having kids. Like not to have them?

Like the world's a fucked up place and not to have them? And I said that once and my mom snapped back with a pretty good response. I said to my mom, I said, I don't want to bring a kid into this world because I think it's messed up. And my mom said to me, you know, she said, James, as bad as the world can be at times, she said, the world I'm living in now is still better than any part of the world I've ever lived in. And I was like, yeah, she hits, you know, just like, like I said, she's, she's amazing. But yeah, I just, I don't know if that's something I want to do. I do think about it a lot. We talk about it a lot and it's hard because there's no precedence for it. Like, you know, I bought, do I want to buy another car? Nah, not yet. I want to

wait until this one gets a little older. I don't know that. I have that no thought process for that with kids. You know, if you want to trigger your wife, get her to like, what happened with my wife is, is that we, we lived with people who were like breastfeeding and having kids and shit. And then all of a sudden she's like, hey, I want one. I'm like, want a what? She's like, one of those. Points at the kid. I'm like, oh, okay.

There you go. So it was done. Okay, well now I know. I cannot encourage you to have one or not to have one. I can't. I can't. I have no opinion. I was just curious for yourself.

I think you would make an amazing father. Are you pretty alpha in your relationship with your wife? I don't think I would call myself an alpha. I think we have a pretty balanced role in decision making. Let me give you a test. I'll give you a couple of questions and I'll give you an answer. So you see her. What day is trash day for you?

I don't know. Tuesday. Let's call it Tuesday. Okay. And Monday night, you see her like getting the trash out of the kitchen and start walking towards the garage door. Take trash out. What is your response? I usually say I'll get to the trash, but if she's already doing it, I'd let her do it.

Beta. Okay. Well, it was great having you on i saw a comment on instagram recently and um someone it was it was from a young lady and she said as soon as i hear men talking about alpha a man say the word alpha my eyes start to roll back into my head that's's good. When my wife looks at me, that's the first thing that happens to she's overwhelmed by my beauty. The only reason why I use trash is the examples because I don't know how to use power tools, you know, like, yeah, see, I do do all that stuff. Yeah. I don't have any of that. So all I got, okay, I'll give you, I'll give you one more question.

You want to go out out it's raining outside i still i still open the door for her frequently when we get in the car together oh it's good that just shows that you were raised by a fucking woman that you were because because i was raised by a woman too and that's the shit they teach you um what's your umbrella question hit me with it do you it's raining outside do you do you own an umbrella yes beta damn hobart i don't think that's beta i think that's being prepared but i'll take it okay i'm the guy who doesn't know how to use power tools but no do not know it's so funny people are like in all my videos there's my milwaukee tool case in my garage and people are always like oh i can't wait to see what's in there it's like fucking batteries and camera gear the only power tools i have my dad uses when he comes over well there you go all right brother hell yeah thank you guys thank you thanks james

that was awesome thanks brian james