The Sevan Podcast - #286 - Ben Mezrich

Episode Date: February 2, 2022

Ben is a New York Times best-selling author of "Bitcoin Billionaires" and "The Antisocial Network". Two of his other well-known books are "Bringing Down the House", the story of a group of MIT card counters commonly known as the MIT Blackjack Team, and "Accidental Billionaires", the story of the beginning of Facebook which was adapted into the movie "The Social Network". His newest book coming out on February 22nd is "The Midnight Ride". You can pre-order the book today. Check it out here: https://www.grandcentralpublishing.com/titles/ben-mezrich/the-midnight-ride/9781538754634/ Follow us on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/therealsevanpodcast/ Watch this episode https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC59b5GwfJN9HY7uhhCW-ACw/videos?view=2&live_view=503 Support the show Partners: https://cahormones.com/ - CODE "SEVAN" FOR FREE CONSULTATION https://www.paperstcoffee.com/ - THE COFFEE I DRINK! https://asrx.com/collections/the-real... - OUR TSHIRTS ... Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca. Please play responsibly. He's done a ton of shit, but he's, bam, we're live. He's timely as all get out. I try. I try. I try my best. How are you? Good. How he's, bam, we're live. He's timely as all get out. I try. I try. I try my best. How are you?

Good. How are you, Ben? I'm good. I'm great. I'm excellent. Holy cow. Where do you start with a guy who's done so much? It's nuts.

You know, I've just survived a long time. That's all it is. So I keep adding more and more. Happy birthday, by the way. Six years. You're five days away. I am. You're right.

You look me up. I'm showing off. I'm showing off, Ben. I'm totally showing off. I can't pretend that I'm 27 then because you know how old I am. But yeah, yeah. My birthday is February 7th. And usually there's a big snowstorm.

So we'll see if it happens again for us. There is one coming. But yeah. You guys, this we'll see if it happens again for us. There is one coming, but yeah. You guys, this is going to be a tough one for me. This guy has done so much, and what's even crazier about how much he's done is he's kind of just on the launching pad of life. There's a really good big-picture story here. His career is about – he's done enough to stop, and his career is about to explode it's like um he was the best caterpillar in his class and now he's about to turn into a butterfly and it's going to be cool and his wife and his kids are going to be crazy proud of him are your parents still alive ben

my parents are doing great actually they're down in florida like uh of course of course they're they're you know doing very well right now so yes everybody's around yeah everyone's gonna be so proud man you you uh it's nuts so basically i came across the book bitcoin billionaire and then i'm like oh and i was talking that's matt suza over there he's the he's the producer of the show i was like oh matt let's get this guy um guy on the show. This is a really cool book. And then as I start researching you, I'm like, holy cow, the Facebook movie, Social – what was it?

Social Network? Social Network, yeah. Yeah, I started watching that. I watched the first hour and a half of that last night. I'm like, this movie was made based on this guy's first book. And then as I dug into you more, I like bringing down the house holy cow and then and then from there i'm like as i said i just sat on one of those exercise bikes for the last two days and just watched podcast years man you've done a lot you wrote nine books just in one year just to start off your whole your writing obsession

when i was struggling so when i graduated from college and I knew I wanted to be a writer, I locked myself in a room and I wrote nine books that year. And they were all crap. None of those books. But in my career, I've published, I think, 23 or 24 books. But previously, I had written nine books in a year out of desperation. And my parents basically said, we're not going to let you starve. But if in one year you haven't done something that shows you're going to make it in this career, you have to go to law school. That was pretty much the fear of law school was what made me lock myself in. Right. So, yeah, it was a it was a crazy kind of process of getting my 10,000 hours in or whatever you want to say to get to the point where I could write a book that was published, which, by the way, also bombed. I didn't have a successful book until my sixth book, which was the MIT Blackjack story, which became the movie 21. So it was a good long, even though I was really young, I had written a lot before my first book was successful.

was really young, I had, I had written a lot before my first book was successful. 100 rejections before you got your first book published. And, and you, I had, I had a, I have a friend, his name, I use that term loosely. I have a guy I used to do a podcast with named Matt Fraser. He's the fittest man on the planet, um, five times in a row. And, uh, he's a, he's a freak of nature, but he won second place and he was so angry and he hung his second place and to this day he calls the second place medal his favorite medal of all time because it was the one that drove him to win the title five times in a row after that yeah is there something like that going on yeah that same mythology i had gotten actually 190 rejection slips before i sold my first book and i would tape them to the walls. So my original writing layer apartment was just covered in,

it looked like a serial killer. It was all theory letters and everyone I've worked with since I have a rejection letter from. So even when I get a new agent, I'm like, Oh, here's where you rejected me and you know, whatever year and every publisher I've worked for and every, you know, so I definitely was like a, you know, a Spider-Man villain. I think that that's the romantic period of your writing career when you're just getting rejection after rejection, because at some point it becomes more of a

business. But at that point it's like, you're, you know, an artist living in your room trying to break in. So it was, uh, it was, yeah, it was intense. It was intense. trying to break in. So it was, uh, it was, yeah, it was intense. It was intense. How do you know that you have the chops for it by that? I mean, I can go out in my front yard and I can try to learn how to ride a unicycle with my kids and I can try over and over and over. And I know somewhere it's going to happen. I'm going to get on the unicycle. I can cultivate the balance, the skill. I just don't trust that about writing for some reason am i wrong i just feel like it seems so much scarier than a unicycle to keep going especially after nine books aren't you just ready to put a gun in your mouth you're just like you have to be delusional you have to

really and truly believe despite what everyone around you is saying everyone and you have to remember so i graduated from college at a point where everyone was going to Wall Street, you know, and all my friends were like making tons of money right out of college. And I was sitting there writing and rejection, writing rejection. And everyone thought I was crazy. So you have to be deluded to the point where you believe that you are going to make it. And when I look back at those early books, they were not good. So it was truly delusional to think that I could get there. But it's that it's almost a religious belief in yourself.

And I don't know where, you know, when I speak to high school kids, I'm always like, you know, you have to decide that this is what you want to do. This is really who you are. And this is all you do. And I tell them to watch the Terminator and the point where she's describing what a Terminator is. And it's like, this is what he does. This is all he does. And he will not stop. That's the mentality you need. But I also put a time limit on it. So basically, you know, give it five years. If you don't show some success in those five years, then you can do it on the side and get a different job because it'll eat you up. I mean, you know, there's, there's, there's millions and millions of stories of people who, who just, you know, wrote themselves and wrote and wrote

and never broke through because there's a lot of luck too. There's a lot of sort of wall climbing and, you know, so it's a mix of things, but you have to have true belief in that this is what you were meant to do. And I was lucky because it started early. Like I knew since I was 12 years old that I wanted to be a writer. So it was just a matter of getting there as opposed to people figure out what they want to do later in life. And it's probably harder. Do you know this book? Do you know this author named Stephen Mitchell?

He's he wrote he he translates a lot of stuff. He translated The Doubted Ching. He's married. He's married to another famous like self-help lady. I'm trying to remember her name. Her big thing is who would you be without this thought? She has like the four steps. Do you know who I'm talking about i haven't read or if i have i don't know that i have but yeah i don't yeah so so you have this guy lao tzu who wrote the greatest self-help in my opinion the greatest self-help book of all time and then steven mitchell translated it you know he has the lao tzu has the famous sayings like i'm pointing at the moon and you're staring at my son uh i'm pointing at the moon and you're staring at my hand right right or um all problems must flourish before they come to an end i mean just and and you know he writes a lot in like paradoxes and so like if you Right, right. people of fucking oppression and um and they're crazy popular yeah how um how do you know that like maybe these books that you're saying aren't good that aren't good or are not great but just there's you're surrounded by i apologize to say this but morons right no i mean i think that you

when you write a book it's interesting so i love what i i i'm delusional that when you write a book, it's interesting. So I love what I, I'm delusional. And when I write a book, I'm always like, this is great. This is going to be awesome. But there are points when you write a book and you realize that you caught something or that there was some magic there that came out of you somehow. And you can judge yourself, I think. I think I can judge. There's something in my early books that I love

and there's always like, oh, this was fun and I get what I was doing here. But it wasn't until I really started to figure out my voice that I knew I was writing stuff that was going. And then still there are books that don't sell the way I think they should. I've certainly written books that went out there that I think should have been this huge bestseller

and just sold 50,000 copies or whatever. And, and, and that happens a lot. But when I look back at the, when I was, you know, training myself to be a writer, I can tell what I was doing wrong then. Um, so now when I write a book, it's not always going to be a home run, but at least I know the quality is to the point where if someone picks it up, they're getting their money's worth. Um, so yeah, I, I think you can judge yourself a little bit. But you're right. I don't take what the critics say as important. Or, you know, when a book comes out and it doesn't sell well, I'm bummed that it didn't sell well, but it doesn't mean that the book was bad. There are tons and tons of great books that just for whatever reason didn't explode.

And I'm always, you know, sometimes I write a book and I'm like, this is going to be huge. It's going to be enormous. And, you know, for whatever reason, it sells 30,000, 50,000 copies. And that's what it does. So, you know, you have to be OK with that. Before we go any further and I forget our uh, our sponsors barbelljobs.com. Okay. Go there. And now before I forget this, um, he, uh, Ben, do I, am I pronouncing your last name? Right? Mesric. Yes, that is correct. Okay. I stole it from another podcast guy. I heard him say it and then I wrote it out the way, the way it sounds. M-E-C-R-I-C-K Mesric. Um, uh, Ben has a new book coming out on february 22nd you can get it on amazon you can get it on audible can you get it where i get my audiobooks can you get it at apple yes you can get it at apple yes and i i think do we have a link to the amazon oh yeah yeah the midnight ride that's it 222 22 with with crazy crazy uh reviews on the back, people really, really love the book. This is your 25th book that's been published? I think so. Yeah, I lose track sometimes, but I think that's right.

I've done a lot of different, most of my, I'm known for nonfiction. So most of my big books were sort of nonfictional books like The Founding of Facebook and 21. But this is a thriller, like in the style of Da Vinci Code. It's a thriller that takes place in and around Boston. It goes back to, you know, it starts present day with a card counter who uncovers a mystery going back into the revolutionary times. So it's a departure for me. So I'm hoping that people like it. The movie is sold to Steven Spielberg and Amblin.

And so we're working on the movie as well. So hopefully this will be a start of a whole new thing for me. I want it to become a franchise book and do multiple ones. And I'm hoping people will take to it. So it should be fun. Do you hear that? There you go. Back to what I was saying.

This guy is a space shuttle on the launch pad with the thrusters on full blast. And you have another book that you did with your wife that you're also hoping has a similar journey, a kid's book. Oh yeah. My wife and I write a kid series together. And it's called the Charlie numbers. It's middle grade fiction. So if you have a kid at like seven to I guess 13 or whatever the ages are for middle grade it's kind of like those old encyclopedia Brown books that we used to use. Yes yes you know math science whiz kids in in grade school who figure out things um and so uh book four in that series is coming out next year um and then uh and then i have this nft project that i don't know if you are aware of that i've been working on called the ben mesrick project which actually has been kind of exploding in in in recent days so

been really psyched about that um yeah so i read bitcoin billionaire and i thought i i i've i downloaded the app i watch a lot of ufc that's the thing where the guys it's like dudes fighting their underwear do you know that sport yeah and um and and they were they were sponsored by something like crypto.com so i downloaded the app like like a good uh drone and i and i just bought like 1600 worth of crypto and i started just watching this right just watching it watching it watching it and i kind of figured out what what cryptocurrency was um it was kind of like what i thought it was imaginary money and yes um but then i read your book so my mom would ask me what crypto is and i would try to explain to her in this book bitcoin billionaire for anyone who doesn't know what crypto is and wants to get a better handling of it

i highly recommend you read this book it is not the point of the book it is not the point of the i don't think so but when you get to the end you'll know what crypto is. You'll have like an understanding. And I was like, wow, this killed like three birds with one stone. I found a guy for my podcast. I enjoyed the reading. And I learned more what crypto was. That's awesome. Yeah, Bitcoin Billionaires is the story of the Winklevoss twins.

And their rise from being like the bad guys in the social network to being worth billions of dollars in Bitcoin. And so I told the sort of story of where Bitcoin came from. And, but it's really a thriller. And Bitcoin is what led me, you know, into the crypto, you know, down that crypto tunnel, just like you did as well. And to the NFT stuff. But yeah, it's, I think, you know, a lot of people were inspired by that book to buy Bitcoin and hopefully did well, depending on when you bought the book. And it's a brand new thing that I think is going to change all our lives over the next few years. I've heard you say that a lot about the Winklevoss twins. Yeah, Winklevi, you can call them. The Winklevi.

And so last night at 930, I started the social network. And so I have to tell you, I CrossFit. I was an executive over at CrossFit Inc. I started there when there were 300 gyms, and I was fired when there were 15,000 gyms when it was sold to – my boss got canceled. By the way, that was one of the things. After I learned more and more who you are, I'm like, maybe i should use this time to pitch him on the crossfit movie crossfit book or was it just a big article i remember reading just an article just basic basically these three uh and i say this with all with all love and and non-bias these three complete shithole rags the new york

times business insider and gq amongst others got together and started some just malicious, crazy shit. In the end, the founder left and is richer than God, and the people who bought it – and we still don't know exactly who bought it, but the people who bought it are stuck with a really big problem on their hands. Because CrossFit was the hell's angels, and the purchasers thought that they were buying harley davidson and there's a big difference between an activism group and uh a motorcycle manufacturer but it was very easy to confuse the two from the outside yeah but anyway it would be a great 12-part series on netflix like the oj simpson movie there's lots of sex drugs and rock and roll and tons of just really good stuff that's an apropos to the pandemic that we're in because not a single crossfitter has died or will die because they don't need added sugar refined carbohydrates and

they move daily yeah so yeah so it's it's and that's what he told us for 15 years our cult leader greg glassman the tsunami of chronic disease is coming yeah wow that's it is a good story there you're right good pitch and i i was maybe i'm manipulating you as an executive director there so i i do think you know i i i don't know a lot about it but i i think that there's definitely a great story in that and there's a lot of people you know who who live by it right yeah yeah that's always a good thing for a television show so i i think it's awesome yeah um as i was um getting as we went through our we started our hard times in 2018 we had some struggles in the company and as i was getting angry i started writing for sort of like a cathartic

release and i laid out 100 chapters and then I ended up writing a page single-spaced every single night until I had this book. And it's one of those things I really could never put out because it's a scorcher shit, right? But it's funny because I've shown some people and read it to some people, and they're like, hey, you should change the names and release this as a fucking miniseries. I was like, wow, all right. That's not a bad idea.'s the best shit though that's you should stick with the names and just let it all burn i gotta wait i gotta wait till a couple of these people i like them too much i like them that's the kind of stuff that i like though is you know you really just name the names because that's fun so i didn't think the week this is so going back i i like the winklevoss brothers and and in our in your book accidental billionaire obviously i

like them and in the social network i like them but i like them right away because they're on crew and here's why as a crossfitter we know that anyone who's on a rowing machine lives in the pain cave that's what we call a place that most people will never go to in their life. And as a CrossFitter, we stare at the entrance of the pain cave every day and some of us go in there. It's a very bad place. And it's not a place for pussies or weaklings or people who want to play the victim role. And so no matter how quote unquote privileged you are, if you're on a rower, you're a madman. You are a special human being.

Right. I mean, that's exactly right. And I tried to make that point in Bitcoin Billionaires in a big way. People write them off so easily. And they're like, oh, they're giant blonde guys. Their life has been easy. Everything is handed to them. But then you think about the fact that they're the Olympic rowers and what actually goes into that. And I got to witness a little bit. I hung out with them for six months to a year. And it's unbelievable. Like, there's no way I could last a day doing what they do to stay at that level. It's just on a whole, you know, just from even just getting up when they get up and training the hours they train and eating what they eat. It's unbelievable, right? And so you start to think of them a little bit differently when you think that through. Certainly, they grew up wealthy and privileged in some ways that a lot

of people would look at and be very jealous of. But nothing was handed to them. You don't get into the Olympics because you're rich, right? That makes no difference at all. It really doesn't. I mean, maybe you have training facilities, but you're not going to get there unless you you really are intense. And they are intense guys. And I really like them. I find them fascinating. And we with the social network, we treated them somewhat poorly. You know, they were drawn as just athletes. Right. As the big, dumb jocks who took on Zuckerberg were chasing them around. There were the kids from the bad guys from every 80s movie right you know dressed as the skeletons chasing the karate kid around the gym because that's how they look you know when you first meet them um but in bitcoin billionaires

i think i was able to unwrap who they are a little bit more which is really smart guys um who really got a hold of two different revolutions at once yeah i mean these you know you look at the photos of them and you're like okay they have to be the bad guys, right? Yeah, I mean, I didn't read Accidental Billionaire. I've only seen an hour and a half of Social Network, but I really, I thought, I mean, Mark Zuckerberg in the first hour and a half is not coming across like a good dude.

Like he needs, someone needs to beat him up. Yeah. He needs to be beat up. And then those guys, there's a scene where they're rowing in the morning and um and their buddy um diva what was the guy's name divya divya comes in to to tell them like you know their website's been stolen and they're on they're on an erg that's inside it like you know whatever it's still dark outside and it's the morning i'm like man for those of us who know we know like this isn't bobsledding any jacket sorry guys this you guys any jackass can make the olympic bobsledding team that's like that's where athletes go to die this

is not that sport rowing is nuts yeah it is nuts and uh yeah i mean they their whole life revolved around rowing for many years um and yeah that movie i think captures zuckerberg very well uh zuckerberg has proved to be who he was in that movie right you know i don't i don't know i don't do facebook i mean i do instagram i guess that's facebook but like i don't know much about him but man that movie just makes him look like a dick well he's a he's got a lot of issues and i think that you know he's uh believes that the world should be a certain way. And he wanted to create it that way. And he's an absolute genius.

But he doesn't think of friends the same way we think of friends. And he screwed a lot of people over. And the Winklevoss twins got caught up in that. And they harbor this anger towards Mark because they feel like he stole from them. And yet they came back. You know, they have a whole second act that you never expect to see. So it's just a wild story. And they're locked in this thing between Zuckerberg and the twins.

It continues because now, you know, they move into Bitcoin. Then Zuckerberg tries to move into crypto. Then, you know, they're moving into the metaverse and NFTs. And now Zuckerberg is going to do the whole metaverse. And it's a continuing battle. And as an author, I love this because this drama, I think, can continue to multiple books and multiple movies. Oh, you're like me. You mentioned that they started the company. They started the company Gemini and then Zuckerberg started Libra. Right. I mean, exactly. That can't be a coincidence, right?

There's this thing going on between them that just won't stop. And it's wild to watch because they're both they're all billionaires now. You know, you think they would all just say, OK, it's all over now. Let's just move on. But it's not that way. It's just the titans battling each other. You were raised in a conservative Jewish home. I don't get it. This is Wikipedia. I am Jewish. Yes. My family was conservative might be pushing it. I think my dad's side of the family was more Jewish.

My mom's side was more, you know, less, more reforming, but I think I was raised in a conservative Jewish family. You could say that. Yeah. And, and now you live in Boston. So this second I am hiding out in Vermont. So I live in Boston. When COVID hit, we came up to the mountains here and we just kind of fell in love with it. I'm like in Boston. I live in the middle of the city, you know, in Back Bay and for 20 whatever years and never spent any time outside, like literally never stepped outside. And it's like the boy in the bubble. And then when COVID hit, we ran to Vermont and put the kids in school here. And it's just been incredible year and a half. So now we're up in Vermont,

but we're going to end up back in Boston in the next few months. Oh, interesting. When I heard you said you put the kids in school, I was like, okay, that means he's in Vermont forever now. Well, we did two years. We were there. We're going through this year. Probably next fall we'll be living in Boston. But I'm back and forth. I've been in Boston forever. So it's been kind of my home forever. But I do do love Vermont, too, now. So, yeah. Are you would you consider yourself conservative now? Conservative in terms of politics?

Yeah, in terms of politics. I'm like I'm like a Muppet. Do the M in terms of politics? Yeah, in terms of politics. I'm like a Muppet. Do the Muppets have politics? Yes, very much so. If woke people have politics, the Muppets... And things just happen and you just don't work and make lots of money and that's your life. So the reality is, is I don't really have any political opinions at all. I really don't. I, I, I understand, um, that there's a lot of people angry for a lot of different reasons. And I try to walk down the middle of that road. Um, I just don't have any, I don't feel like I have any skin in the game on either side. I'm perfectly happy to write my books and, and I want people to read them and I don't care who reads them. And I, and, and, and people, I have tons of friends on who do, who are conservative. I have tons of friends who are liberal and, um, I work, you know, in Hollywood with wonderful people

who are both. And I, I don't really, I don't have any opinions. I really don't. And, and I'm more into the writing about it and the drama of it and the excitement and the fun. And, and that's it. So I don't know, I don't have an answer for you. I don't. I think I'm, you know, in terms of my, my own feelings. I just want everyone to be happy. Right? No, no, no, no. I am. But I will say I am very pro science. I'm a from a family. My family are all scientists and doctors. So if, you know, listen, I'll, on that side of the thing, I lean heavily into, like, give me every chemical there is. So I'm not like you CrossFit guys who are super healthy because you're physically intense. If I'm healthy, it's because someone shot me up with something.

Well, I don't necessarily believe that. I can see just by looking at your skin that you're a pretty healthy guy. I agree that that's important and it's great. And when I was living in the city, I was probably very unhealthy because I never stepped outside. I definitely see the benefits of that.

And if I were physically able to do something like CrossFit, I'd love to do it. You can, you can. No, it's interesting because as a writer, I know I do things that are intense. Like I can lock myself up for days and days and days and write, you know, I was at the peak of my game. I was writing 40 pages in a day,

which I don't even know is physically, it's incredibly demanding. Now it's like five. Would you actually write them like this or you type them? Yeah, it's all type. It's all type. One of the great things my dad did when we were kids is and this was back before you know the internet or anything like that he was like you're all gonna me and my brothers you're gonna learn to type that's yeah the most important thing and we learned as little

kids you know playing video games with there was like games you could play to learn to type and so i'm i'm like a secretary in terms of typing. So everything is straight into the computer. But I write five or six pages every single day. And that takes a level of intensity that I know if I could do it physically, I could probably do some sports really well. Is that part of the discipline for you, just to write every single day and not break that chain?

It is to some extent. I have a lot of rituals. I have a lot of rituals and I have a lot of tricks to write, which I think are really important. And so when I'm writing a book, it's by page and not by time. So you don't say I'm going to write five hours because that is,

you could write 10 pages, you could write no pages, but you'll be frustrated either way. But if you say I'm going to write six pages today, maybe I'll be done in 45 minutes. Maybe I'll be done in five hours. So my day can be very short in terms of my writing day, but I do a page number per day. When I'm not working on a book, I don't force myself to write. It's got to be project driven. But when I'm doing a project, yeah, it's like, I'm going to do six

pages every day this week. And maybe my day is only two hours long. And that's great. Did that process change once people started to pay attention and you received the acclimates? Because I used to be a freelance illustration artist and I went to school for it. I remember at first when I used to draw and do art, it was just for me. I would hide it. I didn't want anybody to see it. I thought it sucked.

And then as I got better and I would show it, people go, oh, my gosh, you drew this. And then it changed for me. I almost was doing the art and thinking, how are people going to perceive this way more than I did in the past? Did you experience that same thing or something? Definitely a point. You know, when when you start when you know that a million people are going to read something, as opposed to when you don't know if anybody's going to read it, you definitely write very differently. And I think you get better in some ways because you're not just indulging yourself. When you're writing for yourself, you tend to get flowery and indulgent and you're trying to write great literature.

When you know that you're going to be selling this, it's going to be the first readers are going to be people in airports and things like that. You really want to want to make it a great story and fun and exciting. I do think that you absolutely change based on that. And it does become much more of a business. There's a lot more people involved, right? When you're a struggling writer, it's you writing and then getting rejections. But when you are writing now, there's agents and publicists and publishers and movie studios and actors. And you know who's going to be reading this book first, even before it comes out. So it's a totally different game.

But in terms of how I write, you know, I've done so many books now that there's such a rigid process to how I do this. You know, someone will, usually someone's pitching me a story. And I'm like, okay, that's a really cool story. Then I spend a couple of months in the research phase hanging out with those people, talking to people, living the story enough that I can write it. And then I write an outline, which is very strict. And it's so strict that I know the page numbers of every chapter in the book. I never even miss that page. And then when I start writing, I've got all the research, I've got the strict outline, everything is done. And then I can just write.

And then it's the six pages a day until I'm done. So it can be, you know, a month and a half of writing or two months of writing and it comes very quick. Um, and so that's, you know, I'm very about that. Is it hard to let it go? Is it hard to say this is done? Or is it okay? I've had it so planned out that every chapter I'm just following this skeleton. So you've built the skeleton so well that you never have to worry about that sort of thing. You know what the ending is. You know what's in each chapter. You have your research already done for every chapter.

So there's never that point where I'm like, oh, how does this end? I know every chapter in this book when I start. and that's the key i think the outline and i hate everyone hates it it's miserable but that's the key to a book i think is having a very good outline um yeah ben you don't you don't exercise at all no i do i'm kidding i do uh i'm actually uh i cross-country ski every morning for about three miles. Wow. OK. And then I do, you know, an hour on the stationary bike. So I'm actually very I do a lot of exercise, but I think I'm fighting a lot of genetics as a conservative Jewish man. As someone who grew up with my genetic background, it's a continuous battle to get into just the amount of working out. I do.

You would think I was being in great shape. Sorry. Sorry. Once speaking of exercise equipment. Hi. Hello. Yeah. This is me.

Yes, sir. Well, I got the exercise equipment trying to deliver. Oh, good. Great. Okay.

Um, when would you like to deliver it? I. I was about to schedule it. Okay. When would you like to deliver it? I thought it was going to come Monday. It did. The company was there. We called a couple of times. Nobody answered.

Oh, I'm so sorry. It can just be just dropped off out front, right? I could definitely drop it off out front. Okay. The driver was telling me

that, you know, I guess there's a gate or something to get up there? Yeah, there's a big gate in front of my house Yeah I'm living the dream There isn't you could just leave it in front of the gate Or do you know are you coming today Okay I'll make sure I'm here between 11 and 1 tomorrow Thank you so much I I'm so sorry.

Thank you. Okay, peace and love. Bye. My assault bike, they make this thing. It's a treadmill that you force to go. It's not an electric treadmill. I love it. Yeah, you spend $4,000 and the thing doesn't plug in. You got to make it work.

Fucking nuts. I apologize for the interruption no that's right but i love the show you know i do i ski i'm a big like we like skiing in this family my kids are on a racing team so we're up on the mountain all the time um and then um yeah so i i i do i do exercise a fair amount but you know none of it none of it efficiently. When you're exercising and you have an idea come in, and you've alluded to it already. We had Kyle Creek on a couple days ago. He's alluded to it. Stephen King's written about it in his book on writing that these things that come, you don't know where they come from, but you better pull it down or else it will pass by and you will not see it

again. What do you do when you're out there and you see it? You got to pull it down. Like you stop skiing. Yes. So I pull out my phone and I put it in the notes or I email myself. I email me myself all the time. Me too. Yes. What actually has been happening a lot is i wake up at like four in the morning with and and like i i for whatever reason i'm very productive so i'll write like a paragraph at four in the morning um and then go back to bed but if i forget to write it down you're

right it's gone it just is gone you don't you can't really recapture it sometimes so it's kind of crazy but i i will say that jogging or walking or cross-country skiing you do come up with a lot it's like those are the times when when a lot happens in your brain um and and for whatever reason you get to that state where yeah you better have something handy to write something down because you'll lose it by the time you're done um but i agree it it is a weird process writing, um, or any of the arts where, where things just sort of, you know, it's your brain working and figuring things out, but you're, it's so subconscious, um, that you just don't know where it comes from sometimes.

Is it, is it that, or I know you're a science guy, bear with me. Is it that or is it more like a radio? You know, when you have a little radio and you turn it on and you hear the symphony playing, you don't open the radio to be like, where's so much going on in your brain that you just don't know. Like we're finding and our brains are looking and finding patterns like all the time. And a lot of what writing is, is a puzzle. It's patterns. It's figuring out how it all fits together. It's rhythm. It's the same thing with music. So I think it's more in your own head than it is you're receiving something.

I'm open to that idea. I think it's really, really cool. But I think more likely there's just so much more magic to what actually goes on in your head that you just don't realize is happening. And you're you're figuring things out, you know, when you're not thinking about it. So I think it's more coming internally. It's not a big difference whether it's coming externally or internally, because the reality is your brain is so much vaster than you realize. We use such a small percentage of it that you could be reading stuff off of that rather than receiving it from elsewhere. But I don't know. My thought is it's probably just internal workings. Because sometimes you'll go to bed not figuring out a scene and you'll wake up with the scene all figured out.

And it's just there's work going on even when you're not paying attention, I think. On that note, I won't be the dead horse or maybe a little. I will. There is a saying, you know, there's there's Taoist saying, stop thinking and all your problems will end. But there was also the Buddhist teachers would say would say if you want new thoughts you have to stop thinking to make room for those for those new thoughts and so i'm a fan of that i really really agree with that and um like i used to before i started writing every morning i had a ritual where i had a backgammon and i would play backgammon against myself three times and what it was was wow you are weird entirely um it's all about turning your brain off

the best writing happens and so i'll actually have the room pitch black with music really loud music playing um and i'm writing in that environment because i'm trying to just turn my head off from all yeah like the more blank you make yourself the more more you can create there's definitely something to that what What kind of music? It all depends on what I'm writing. So sometimes, you know, it'll be it'll be like Eminem or something kind of more vicious. Sometimes it'll be classical music. You know, when I was writing this book, Midnight Ride, I actually tried to listen to revolutionary war era music, which is horrible. I actually tried to listen to revolutionary war era music,

which is horrible by the way. It's actually like pipes and drums and it's really hard to listen to variations of that. But you know, it depends on the scenes that I'm writing and I try and sort of pick music around those scenes. So yeah, it's actually a big part of my writing is listening to it. Does the early morning phase, I went through like a, the mod, like English mod rocker phase where I is listening to early morning phase I went through like a mod like English mod rocker phase where I was listening to that stuff

it's I'm very eclectic taste in music so yeah I'd like to propose that it's the when you're training and you start focusing on your breath and you become get some oxygen deprivation going that your brain silences and that's when your antenna is the strongest and

that's why it's coming from the outside world and and and you induce that silence in the brain but but i but i have no fucking proof of it so let's move on to the next thing i have no proof of that for you think i'm so weird and like you call your publicist and you're like why did you take this body no i'm into that listen i i'm i i don't i don't have any sort of reason not to agree with all that sort of thing i think that you definitely quieting your brain either to receive something or to get it from yourself it's it's very similar um so i like that idea and maybe it is the the lack of oxygen or whatever it is that sets you up. Is Stephen King in your hood in Vermont? He's in Maine, I think.

And Dan Brown is somewhere near where I am. There's definitely something to going up into the mountains and writing or isolating yourself. So I used to be the opposite. I like to write in cities. I wrote in Vegas. I would go to Vegas and stay in a different hotel room every night. So I wrote Bringing Down the House that way. I literally stayed in a different suite every night until I'd written that book. And in New York, I used to write in cities and hotels. But I've been writing really well up here. So I don't know, maybe this is going to be my new thing to do the whole Stephen King thing where you're in like a small town in a small

room somewhere. But everyone's different every writer is different i mean uh john grisham would write on the subway you know um he'd have a notepad and write on the side it's uh you distract yourself in different ways i guess um but uh i like both so yeah um how many movies potential movies are in the works right now? You have the GameStop, you have the Antisocial Network was my latest book, which was about the GameStop drama. And we're going to be shooting that movie this spring. So that's happening very fast. We have a we're going to announce a big director shortly. I don't have I don't know who it is yet, but we have a bunch of directors who are vying for it. And we'll start casting it very soon, which is great.

Bitcoin Billionaires is going to be made this year as well. So that book, the movie is being made by a guy named Greg Silverman, who reached to run Warner's Pictures. And the Winklevite Twins are actually involved as producers on it. Oh, cool. So, you know, the financing is all fine. Yeah, it's going to be a really cool movie and we have a great writer involved, but we haven't announced yet, but that movie is going to get made this year. Then the midnight ride is being made by Spielberg and Amblin. And I wrote a draft of that movie of the screenplay. So I just handed that in.

So we'll see how that goes. How many, before you go on to your fourth movie that's in the works, is that your first screenplay you've written? No, it's my first major studio screenplay. I wrote a version of my book Ugly Americans for DreamWorks, but years and years ago it didn't get made. I wrote an independent screenplay for a bunch of independent people a couple of years ago that hasn't gotten made yet. So this is my first, and I write for the show Billions on Showtime.

Wow, okay. I wrote an episode of Billions last year, which I guess is sort of a screenplay. It's a TV teleplay or whatever you want to call it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It counts. Yeah. So then I have a television show in the works,

a book I wrote called Seven Wonders, was picked up by NBC Universal. And Justin Lin, who did Fast and the Furious, is making this show. So that's a television show. And then, gosh, what else is in the works? My book Wooly. So I wrote a book about a bunch of scientists who are making a woolly mammoth in Boston. It's a true story. And it's all about genetics and the biological revolution going on in labs. That is that going to happen. Are they really going to make one?

Yeah, we'll have an actual living woolly mammoth in the next five years, which is nuts. They've already got they've already got they've already figured out how to do the hair and the tusks. And they're going to take an elephant and an elephant is going to give birth to a woolly mammoth. And it's a wild story. The book is called Woolly. And the guy is Dr. George Church, who is like the Einstein of our times, is doing this. And I spent a year in his lab just writing this book. And the movie's been picked up by the guys who did Memoirs of a Geisha and a bunch of other big movies. And it's being made along with the woolly mammoth.

So our goal is it's going to be like amusement parks and Wooly Mammoth and a big book and a big movie. How do you have? Go ahead. Sorry. Go ahead, Ben. I'm trying to remember if there's any more. There's there's always like things going on. I have a couple other projects that are in the works, but earlier they're not quite yet at the studio stage. Yeah. Your wife's going to be like, I can't believe you didn't say as soon as you get off. at the studio stage. Yeah. Your wife's going to be like, I can't believe you didn't say as soon as you get off.

Well, the Shelly number stories too. Yeah. My wife and I, we, uh, Ellen Pompeo from Grey's Anatomy is producing and we're doing, uh, hopefully, hopefully somewhere like Disney or Nickelodeon that'll get made, but that's more like a children's series. How strict is your schedule from when you wake up to when you go to bed? It sounds insane. Do you deal with all this or do you have an agent? Like how do you, how do you spend time with your kids how do you be creative how do you how do you use the bathroom i don't do very much so basically you know you have a hollywood agent you have a publishing agent and then you have uh you know a lot of

people involved in each of those things different producers are making those movies so that stuff is usually just fielding phone calls or emails. You're not really involved to that degree. And once the movie starts shooting, I will go on set and I'll be on set for a couple of weeks. But really the author of the book has no, you know, reason to be there. You're not, you know, you're not making any decisions. Nobody really cares what you say at that point. Yeah. In terms of, so my, I get up in the morning with the kids. I take the kids to school. I try and do some sort of exercise like skiing or something like that for a couple hours. And then I eat lunch and then I write and I usually write for four or five hours, depending on what phase I'm in. And then, and then I do phone calls and emails with all the people

with the NFT project. I'm much more involved in that right now. So I'm talking to a lot of people. I'm doing a lot of Twitter spaces and things like that. I'm telling stories and things like that. But yeah. And then when I publicize a book, it's totally different. Then you're on tour. So when this book comes out in February for about four to six weeks, I'll be mostly doing interviews, just three interviews or four interviews a day. You used to just travel a lot in COVID. I don't know how much I'm going to travel. If things, hopefully things will open, everything will open back up by first week of March and then I'll go on the road and I'll do, you know, 10 cities or something like that.

Matt, I want to come back to this NFT. I want to ask him some, yeah, I have this hierarchy of things. Do you know how your parents met Ben? Yeah. How they met. Yes. My dad, Brooklyn college in New York.

My dad was a basketball player, Brooklyn, Brooklyn polytechnic. And my mom actually was a cheerleader at Brooklyn college. And so they met, you know, they were, you know,

two Jewish people in, in Brooklyn who, you know, we're in the same circles and met each other. And their first date was in Times Square on New Year's Eve where they actually lost each other and couldn't find each other on the date and didn't see each other the next day. So that's how in Brooklyn, New York. Yes. And how do you know how old were they? So they were in their early 20s. They were young. They were young. So it was early. My older brother, I think, was my mom had when she was like 21 or something. So they were very – it was a different era, obviously, but they were young.

So – and how much – I'm sorry. This is a shitload of loaded questions I'm leading you down. I like it. Yeah, we'll get somewhere. You'll like it, I think. I'm leading you down. I like it. Yeah, we'll get you. We'll get somewhere. You'll like it. I need therapy. So this is good. So your mom had your brother at 21. And how many siblings are there?

There's three brothers. Older brother and my younger. Yeah. I'm the middle. And so when was the youngest one born? If she was 21 when she had the first. I figure out if I have the right age is like. So my younger brother is two years younger than me

and my older brother is like three years older than me. Okay, so between 21 and 26, she had three of you or 27. Something like that, yeah. And when did she go to law school? So my mom, so both my parents changed careers later in life. So my dad was an electrical engineer and an inventor and worked for J&J and RCA. He helped make ultrasound, which they use, you know, he helped make the holograms they use

in the Disney. It has a hundred and something patents. So he's a very smart guy, worked on MRI and a lot of medical technology, then decided he wanted to be a doctor. So he actually, in his early forties, went back to med school. Wow. So when I was in maybe third or fourth grade, I can't remember when it was, he went to med school. And so my mom sort of took care of the family while my dad went to med school. And then she decided, okay, well, I'm going to go to law school. Wow.

So she went to law school in her 40s and got a law degree. And so he became a doctor, very successful, was the chairman of radiology at Penn and then at UMaryland, retired. He's 80 now. So he retired a number of years ago and moved to Florida like all the old Jews do. But my mom worked and was only a lawyer for a few years. I don't think she loved it but she loved going to school and doing it um and both my brothers are my my older brother is a md jd mba at yale a radiologist and my younger brother is like the head of transplant um he's a liver kidney transplant surgeon in madison wisconsin oh my goodness that's a that's a tough gig to talk about intense people. Like my brother will call me and he, you know, I'm like, what are you doing? And he's like, well,

I'm about to start a 12 hour surgery. It goes all night till the next day. And I'll be like in Vegas. He's like, Hey, our lives are very different, but he works, you know, when they do those liver transplants, they're eight to 10 hour surgeries, physically demanding and just intense. So he's one of those surgeons who's just pretty like, yeah. And you went to, and you went to Harvard. I did. Yeah. And what did you study there? So I knew I wanted to be a writer. So I basically was trying to appease my parents who didn't think that being a writer was something one could do for a living um you know and so i was pretending to go to law school um so i did like pre-law but i did all like liberal arts kind of like you know classes but i i basically women's women's studies

whatever i had to do right i did social political theory social yes which was the major was called uh but really i knew what I wanted to do. So I was writing and writing and writing. And then when I graduated from college, I had to apply and defer law school and then say to my parents, I'm going to write. And my dad was like, OK, one year, we're not going to let you starve. We'll give you just enough that you won't starve. But by the end of the year, if you haven't proved to us that you're going to make it as a writer, you're basically cut off. That's it. You figure it out yourself, go to law school. So I locked myself up and I wrote and I wrote and I wrote. And by the end of the year, I had an agent

and that was enough to let me just sort of drop the law school thing. And then I worked odd jobs, but I got very lucky. I sold my first book when I was 24. So it really was only 21 to 24 where I was kind of like scared. I mean, I was still scared after I sold my first book, but at least I had proven that I could make it at least, you know, some level of a living writing by the age of 23, 24. Were you, were you living at home? No, I, I, me and two other, well, one other writer who now actually was, was one of the heads of the Atlantic monthly magazine. So he's a really smart, smart dude and has done a couple of books. We were both struggling writers living in a

crappy apartment in the basement of a dental office in the back Bay in Boston. So we were just able to afford it. He was, uh, worked at a bookstore and I worked for some I wrote brochures for some public service organizations. So we were like basically, you know, living on peanut butter and jelly for a couple of years while we lived in this little apartment. But I was very fortunate. I sold my first book right. Really one year after that. So it wasn't very long of that. And then, by the way, I wasn't successful. So I sold books, but I was vastly overpaid, but nobody read the books. So what I did very smartly was get myself hugely into debt. I ended up spending a few years, my parents hate when I tell these stories, but in my 20s, I racked up almost $2 million in debt, which is actually quite impressive. almost $2 million in debt, which is actually quite impressive. And I had an IRS agent who knew me by name to show up and say, you have to pay something.

I had all of my accounts frozen, but there was one where I could still get money out of it. I was living so, I mean, sneaking out the window kind of thing. I had $78,000 in credit card debt, and I would use those checks from the credit card companies to pay my rent. The dumbest thing in the world, you should never do that. And so literally, when I sold Bringing Down the House, I was in a mountain of debt, to the point where I was, I had a stack of business school applications. And I was like, I'm going to have to go to business

school, because the only way I could ever pay my way out of this is go work on wall street. And, you know, I'd gone to Harvard. So it wasn't like I wasn't going to be able to get a real job. But I knew I was on the verge of, and this was after I published six books. So pre bringing down the house, I was kind of an it boy author. So they were paying me a lot for the books, but I was spending even more than they were paying me a lot for the books but i was spending even more than they were paying me so what would you buy how do you get in two million dollars debt that's

that isn't i made i so i was in like 40 to 50 60 thousand dollars debt and i was making movies and it was nuts yeah no two million i'm just like it really is actually impressive it is actually something kind of to be proud of the amount of money that the way i spent money was insane it was i would go to the airport on a wednesday to logan airport no bags nothing i'd show up at the airport and i'd buy a one-way ticket to like paris or london or or anywhere and i would fly one way and i would go to the nicest hotel and book like the nicest suite and then call all the friends that i had and say, come, we're going to have fun. And we spent two weeks in wherever we were. We were at the top floor of the, what was the restaurant hotel in Amsterdam for like three weeks. Then I'd go to the park closet in New York for a month. I went to LA when the standard and LA opened in West

Hollywood. I lived in their, their pool suite for a month and a half for no reason at all. And literally, and by the way, I didn't do drugs. And no, I was not, I was a little bit of a drunk, but not beyond, you know, what everyone is. FanDuel Casino's exclusive live dealer studio has your chance at the number one feeling, winning. Which beats even the 27th best feeling, saying I do. Who wants this last parachute? I do. Enjoy the number one feeling,

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And yet I would just spend and spend. And it was just like, it was just fun. And it was kind of like, you know, when someone has like a professional athlete career and they think, okay, it's going to keep happening, I'll just keep getting big checks. And literally I was spending way more than I was taking in. And it wasn't until like the end of this year period where I was like, oh crap. But I always thought I could just sell another book. But the reality is nobody was reading my books. There was going to come an end point to that ability to sell a book. And then I ran into the MIT kids and I started going to Vegas with them. And I was like, oh, this is this is a really cool story.

It just happens to be true. And and so that. What year was that? What year was the MIT? The book came out in 2002, but I probably discovered the book in 2000 or so. And you met your wife in 2006 or you got married in 2006? I met my wife probably 2002, probably right around the same time. Okay.

Did you meet her in Vegas? No. Tanya and I met at a club in Boston, actually, at a nightclub called Aria um that uh I was out and about and um yeah which is now a big hotel in Vegas right yeah um similar uh yeah same same I don't think the same they're not the same brand but it was the same idea but I didn't meet her in Vegas I met her uh in Boston and she was in school at uh um dental school um when I met her and she was a model on the side. And so we kind of started hanging out and then she got into fashion and stuff. She's done some incredible stuff and had a TV show in Boston for a while.

And yeah, we, we met around that same period of time. Yeah. Is she freaking out when you meet her and you have all this debt? Is she the adult now? Does she, like, if you're going to buy a house, does she do all that? Like, is she the adult? She's definitely the adult for sure. I mean, well, she's definitely more responsible than I am in most ways. But when we met, it was an interesting point because I had a fair amount of, I had six books that come out. I'd written for the X-Files.

I had a TV movie called Fatal Error, which was really crappy, by the way. Did you meet David Duchovny? Man, you're opening too many doors. I met David Duchovny and Chris Carter, who ran the show. And Jillian, who I've gotten to know in years since, because she's dating a writer named Peter Morgan, who is working on, might be adapting one of my projects. So I get to be a big fan of them all. I love that show. So I had this level of like, on the outside, it looked like I was doing very well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of big books and stuff going on.

But right around that time, I started talking and hanging out with the MIT kids. And so everything kind of exploded like it happened pretty fast. Like I the book wasn't going to be a big book. Like I sold it for the least amount of money I had sold any of my books. And the first print run was going to be this tiny 12,000 copy print run because at that point in time, Vegas was not hot. This was before Chris moneymaker won the world series of poker. So Vegas was like off. Like it, it, it, it, nobody was going there.

It was before Vegas had revived itself. So when I sold the book, it was a tiny little book, but what happened revived itself. So when I sold the book, it was a tiny little book. But what happened was I wrote an article for Wired Magazine about the MIT kids and Kevin Spacey read it. And back then that was a good thing, right? Yes. Yes. It was bigger than life. Yeah. I got a call from Kevin Spacey, called me on the phone and he's like, he's like, come to LA. I want to talk to you. So I flew to LA. Yeah, that's Dana.

That picture is me, Jeff Ma, who was the main character in 21, and Dana Burnetti, who runs Kevin Spacey's company. So Dana and Kevin picked me up at the airport. And they're like, we're going to make a movie out of this. And I was like, that's awesome. How much are you going to pay me? Because I was in this massive debt at that point in time. And Kevin and Dana were like, we're not going to pay you anything. And I was like, what? And they're like, we're going to pay me and because i was in this massive debt at that point in time and kevin and dana were like we're not going to pay you anything and i was like what we're like they're good we're going to give you zero and i was like that doesn't seem like a good deal and they're like that's our deal right now we want to make this movie we'll give you zero now

if it gets made we'll give you'll make a lot and i was like this seems crazy so i go back to my agent and i'm like kevin spacey wants to make the movie, but then they don't want to pay me anything. And he's like, let me find out. And at the same day, I got an offer from a major studio, um, separate because they found out Kevin Spacey interested and they offered me

$750,000. Wow. And so almost half your debt. Right. So I go back, I go back to Kevin and Dana. I'm like, guys,

guys, this other studio is offering me three quarters of a million dollars. What are you guys going to offer me? And Kevin, you're like, we're still going to Kevin and Dana. I'm like, guys, guys, this other studio is offering me three quarters of a million dollars. What are you guys going to offer me? And Kevin and Dana are like, we're still going to offer you zero. You have to choose. And I'm like, well, this is a bad choice. And then Dana said to me, and I'll remember this to this day. He's like, if I gave you $750,000 right now, what would you do?

And I said, I would spend it. I would spend every penny of it. Because he knew my whole story, how I'd driven myself into horrible debt. And he's like, yes, you'd spend every penny of it because he knew my whole story, how I've been driven myself into horrible debt. And he's like, yes, you'd spend every penny of it and you'd be back exactly where you are right now. So here's what we're going to do. You can go on talk shows and talk about Kevin Spacey is going to make this movie. When they make this movie, you'll get a ton of money. And this is going to be a career, not a big check. And so I went back to and and who said that to your agent dana kevin spacey's main head of production oh okay my agent was like are you nuts take the

center yeah okay he was yelling at me so i turned down the court three quarters of a million dollars and i took the zero deal with kevin spacey then i ended up going on the today show and the book exploded and became a bestseller the movie movie got made, became a huge movie, changed my entire life, um, solved all my problems with the IRS and paid all my debts. And, and ever since then I became a different person. I got smarter and I got married and I got a family and I, and I stopped being a lunatic. Um, and you gained a tremendous confidence in yourself too, right? Well, I've always had a lot of, I've always been delusionally confident in myself. That's never been an issue.

I've never, I've always thought. Maybe like a more settled down then, like a calmer confidence maybe? My life is all about my kids and my family. I don't drink at all anymore. I haven't had a drink in many years. I'm just not, I don't care about that stuff anymore. As much as I enjoy it listen i'm the biggest like star fucker in the world i love being around celebrities i love meeting cool people but

i but i'm a boston kid like i go there for two days and i'm like this is not these people are all insane um most of them are shitheads right they're the worst people in the world for the most part i'm sure you've met a lot of these people. Yes. But it's still fun, right? And then you just have a real life. Or I go to Vermont and I have a real life. So I've definitely lived the double life aspect of it. But I've leaned into the more normal, real world. So, yes, I became smarter.

I became careful. I got an accountant. I got a business manager. I'm not in charge of the stuff that I used to be in got an accountant. I got business manager. I'm not in charge of the stuff that I used to be in charge of, which is for good reason. I totally relate to the Starfucker thing. I never tell. I don't think I've ever told this story to this degree on any podcast. So I don't know. You're opening me up in bad ways. But it's just been a weird, it's been a wild run. But I will say this, all of the books

I've written have been informed by the crazy period in my life. Like when I wrote the Vegas story, I knew Vegas hosts, I had gambled, I had sat at a blackjack table at two in the morning and lost $40,000. And I knew what that felt like, right? And so I wrote, you know, the social network, it wasn't hard for me to meet all of the people I needed to meet. Like I have so many connections because of the crazy period in my life. If I need like a CIA agent, I know who to call. If I need to find like a criminal, I know where to go. You know, I've been hanging out with like, well, I wrote a book called Straight Flush, where I had to hang out with fugitives, you know, people who sleep with guns under their pillows and stuff like that.

I know these people because I hung out with them in my crazy period of time. I wrote a book about Russian oligarchs and I had already been on these billionaire yachts and things like that. So it wasn't it's not all, you know, I've got some groundwork laid by my crazy period in life that makes it easier to write the books going forward. by my crazy period in life um that makes it easier to write the books going forward i had kyle creek on uh he he's a young guy 35 years old uh you know self-published guy on amazon fucking selling books faster than they can print them and he said something that that i really like and it's so true with me too and i'm paraphrasing all the shitty things that happened in his life are basically fertilizer where all the great shit is now growing from and i'm paraphrasing all the shitty things that happened in his life are basically fertilizer where all the great shit is now growing from and i use an example really simple well i'm using this

example that you've been in a liquor store a thousand times the only time you remember is the time you were in there and the place was held up and and you got shot in the foot and that's why that moment is so great some people bitch about the hardest times in their life the time you had to shit in a trash can in a closet at a college because you ate something bad. That's great. 20 years later, you need that fucking moment 20 years. It's the greatest thing that ever happened to you 20 years later because you can write about it. If you're creative, that's that is the that's the chicken fertilizer in your yard where the sunflowers are now growing out of. Yeah, I mean, I think you're absolutely right. And all of these experiences matter and, and they're important. So yeah,

I agree. I agree. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I, um, my, my mom was, um, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm Armenian. My mom and dad are Armenian. They're divorced. My, um, I grew up in Berkeley, California. Um, it's as fucked up as Boston is and maybe more so. And my stepmom was Jewish. So as an Armenian boy, grew up in a Jewish household. I was brought up extremely, extremely liberal, extremely liberal, hug every tree, love every human being to the point where it kills them. And. And now I wear a vest like you and I'm but I'm a few years younger than you. I'm only 49. I'll be 50 in March. And my mom went to law school when she was pregnant with my sister. No, pregnant with me or my sister. I can't remember. And she – it was – my dad went to law school, and then my mom just tagged along, and then my dad dropped out, and my mom kept going.

And my mom was the first woman to graduate from her law school. It was a night law school. then my mom just tagged along and then my dad dropped out and my mom kept going and my mom was the first woman to graduate from her law school it was a night law school fantastic yeah and so and then basically you know she started practicing law and making like twelve thousand dollars a year and struggling feeding his peanut butter and jelly my parents got a divorce but i i probably have a very um i have the low rent version of your life i think like like more the budget it's a little smaller city i didn't have a two jews i only had one jew and it was a same mom but i got the armenians those are kind of like low-rent jews uh but but and then i see you wearing a vest and and i just the more i dug into you i was like wow this me and this guy maybe have some similar things um and and i really like

the star fucking thing too two days ago i had a guy on who lost 100 pounds and i didn't tell anyone he was coming on as a guest i get you on as a guest and i've told anyone who will listen like i'm checking out at the gas station today i'm like hey i got ben mesrick on my show next week so i'm like i i i relate life is uh like you want it to be exciting and. And I think there's just there's a lot of like I have so many stories, you know, about just all of that stuff. I mean, it's just an incredible experience after experience. So I've just been I've been lucky. I've been lucky.

And, you know, it's all worked out. So like my brothers say, I'm like a Muppet. I just kind of fall from one thing to the next and I enjoy it and I have fun with it. And I move on. I've actually been sort of, you know, working in that way. I enjoy it and I have fun with it and I move on to the next. I've been sort of, you know, working in that way. Luck is a huge understatement.

And I like what you said, like a Muppet falling from one thing to the next. The two metaphors people ask me about. About how I do my life. I feel like I'm more like a Labrador chasing a tennis ball or I feel like Forrest Gump or I feel like Mr. Magoo. But the thing is, and I wanted to ask you this, too, since you know a lot of fucking really rich people. Yeah. Do you know any lazy rich people? I mean, lazy is a hard word. I definitely don't think people got rich that way. I certainly know people who were born rich who don't necessarily become the Winklevite twins. You know, I find them so fascinating

is they didn't have to do the stuff that they did. You know, nobody, they felt they had to, and they see themselves as underdogs always. But had they wanted to just live their lives, they certainly could have. Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. Like, you know, the people that I write about, no, none of them are lazy or anything like that. That's for sure. You know, they're all self-made or most of them are self-made, even like the Russian oligarch. I mean, those guys fought tooth and nail. They were definitely not lazy. They did scary, scary things and bad things, but you couldn't call any of them lazy. No, probably not. I don't think I know any lazy billionaires. I know kids of billionaires who are pretty lazy, but not – no in, and I heard this guy speaking. One of my friends was going to see this speaker, like who tells you how to get rich quick and his taker. And I was just,

and I was making a, he was a professional arm wrestler and I was making a documentary about him called pulling John. So I tagged along with him to this thing. And the guy who's like trying to sell the DVDs to you for like, you know, $3,000, the package. Um, he said, one of the things he says is, um, uh is God will give you whatever you want. And so if you resent rich people, God will never make you rich because he doesn't want you to resent yourself. And like I didn't believe in God. And but I but I knew right away that whatever he just said was fucking true. Like like I'm just sitting there like this guy's full of shit. And then all of a sudden it hit me like a lightning bolt. And as a liberal raised in Berkeley, even though my family had some means and you know what I mean? Like, you know, like we drove a car and like I had lunch money. I knew that there was a resentment

towards rich people that was extremely fucking unhealthy. Yeah, that that I was raised with in Berkeley and that liberals are raised with because basically what it does is it keeps everyone down. Listen, I agree with that. And Janet Madison, The New York Times used to call me the billionaire's best friend because I always write very glowing things about very rich people. And I agree that there is a lot of resentment and anger. But one of the things that I also like to keep in mind is the reality is a lot of people work really, really hard and don't get rich. Right. Right. Right. The whole thing is that hard work is necessary, but it's not enough.

necessary, but it's not enough. You have to also be in the right place at the right time, be very lucky and be smart about how you work and what you work on. And so it's tricky. It's tricky because I know a lot of people who work a whole lot harder than I ever have. And their lives don't necessarily work out the way maybe they should. So it's tough. It's tough. And I get the resentment towards extreme wealth because everyone feels like they're working hard. Right. So it's like, you know, I agree with you. And I also see there's there's some shakiness to it because it's when I look back at my life, my successes. I agree. If I hadn't worked as hard as I worked, I wouldn't have had them. But I know a lot of writers who've worked just as hard as I have didn't get there. So, you know, there's also a lot of rolling in the dice in life. Man, you're nicer than I am. You're nicer than I am.

I wonder if I'll be as nice as you in three years. No, I listen, I, I want everyone to to to achieve and succeed and be happy um and i wish everyone could have that luck come to them um and i i understand that you know i locked myself in a room and i wrote nine books in a year and i know that's super hard to do but i also know that it didn't always have to lead to the next good thing. I could have written those nine books and ended up a drunk living in Boston right now. I'm going to push you a little bit more on this. I'm so sorry. I'm going to push you a little bit more on this.

There was a – tell a couple stories. There was a Harvard professor that I read about in Smithsonian, and he was an artist. And he was also into running marathons and he also i think taught entomology is that the study of insects yes at at harvard and so what he would do is he had a cabin up in the woods and what he would do is he would run this path and every like few miles he would make like a concoction like rotten bananas with like some sugar poured on it and then and then he would then you know every day run that same path and stop every couple of miles. And there would be bugs there eating these, you know, mushy concoctions. He made dead animals, he'd leave out and he would draw these bugs. So he's

an entomologist. He was an artist and he was a, um, a runner. Those were his three passions. And he got them all in one thing. And that's what he would do and he published this amazing book that i own and it's it's all about bugs and he drew every bug in in that book right i'm willing to bet not two million dollars but i'm willing to bet a hundred bucks that you do that too and that i do that too i watch the ufc it's the only fucking sport i watch and i spend three hours a week watching it but because i watch it i also make sure that at least once a week i reach out to a ufc fighter to get them on my podcast i don't fuck around i don't fucking dilly dally with i would never get into the nfl unless i was thinking about manufacturing footballs or or like my whole life is like a tight weave i have to guess

your life is like that there's no way you could be this productive even i mean you're writing fucking children's books and you told me the first thing you do in the morning is drive your kids somewhere yeah no absolutely i think that everything informs you know you're right i i think you're absolutely right that i'm passion driven i'm i'm definitely obsessed with being a writer right I, and then I definitely funneled my whole life around that. Um, you don't drink, you don't drink. Right. Anymore, anymore. You got married. That's your only indulgence. Right. Oh gosh. That's an indulgence. But no, I, I, I think that, um, it's interesting when I got married and had kids, my, I really thought to myself, oh, this is going to be the end of my writing career right i was like you know how do you do that and it ended

up being way more productive a writer after i had kids than before i had kids um way more productive like with like a baby under one arm and a dog running around then running around going to bars you know trying to meet girls right yeah yeah it's much more productive time because i think the real reason is because 2 a.m to 7 a.m you're not out right you have half the day that you didn't have before um and sure the rest of your day is taking care of kids and stuff like that but you know you used to just sleep late so i think that in any event you're right i i think that the focus and all that stuff is is stuff that i i'm able to do and and um yeah yeah so i'm just driving home that it's it's it's more than hard there's like hard work is where it begins yeah but then there becomes this sort of um i

mean you said something so great i hope and i marked the point point you said it at 27 minutes you even you have your own plan on how you write. I mean, most people write for time. I've never heard anyone say that they write for pages. I mean, this is fucking brilliant, simple and brilliant. Did you come up with that? Great question. And I don't, I don't remember. I don't know. I think I did, but it might've been, I might've been talking to, you know, when I was a young writer, I was trying to just become a writer by reading and every book that I could get my hand up and obsessing over my idols. So my idol writers were Michael Crichton, was Brace Nellis and Jay McInerney, Hunter S. Thompson. And I would read everything there is about them. I would try and follow their careers, read every book they ever written. So maybe I

swallowed up like a sponge from somewhere and my reading about these other great writers, but it's always been the way I've done it. I've always somewhere early on, I came up with the idea that it was going to be about pages. And, and so, yeah, that's always how it, and when I was younger, it was, it was more than six pages a day. It was I really started out trying to do 40 pages a day when I was a struggling writer, which is completely insane. And I did that. And then I shifted down to, I remember, 14 pages a day and then it was 10 pages a day. And now it's six pages a day. So it's getting getting shorter, getting shorter. Yeah. When I wrote my CrossFit book, it was just one page a day. That's fine because a book is only 300, what, 350 pages. So you can do a book, it was just one page a day. That's fine because a book is only 300, what, 350 pages.

So you can do a book in a year doing one page a day. And I was doing it because I was angry. Yeah. Well, anger is a great motivator, right? What are your vests? The new, is that, did he mean yarmulke? Is that what he means? I'm really wearing a vest right now because I was literally coming back from outside. This is like a cool, like, let's see, heated vest. Yeah.

Baby, it's like always negative 10 degrees here. So you get the heat. It is funny. Now that I'm in NFTs, I'm always on phone calls with VCs, Silicon Valley VCs, and always a vest. Everyone is wearing a vest in every call. Wow. Interesting. It's the VC wear.

We're not the only company you're wearing a vest right now. The Sand Hill Road protocol. Yeah, it is. But it's amazing. I mean, every call you're on, there'll be like six people and they're all wearing vests. How are you for time? Do you have to go to the bathroom or anything bad all right why okay what you got what you got for me i i would i know this this isn't fair to ask you this but i fuck it i got you here what what the fuck is an nft i know and

i'm gonna tell you what an nft is yeah okay oh and an nft is a non-fungible token. That's what it means. But basically, it's an image. This is the simplified way that is both unique and tradable and ownable and digital. So, for instance, you say that again, unique, ownable and tradable. And so basically, you can buy an image right or a little video 10 seconds of video or really anything a photograph um it is logged on the blockchain so it is yours even though someone could take a picture of it and have a copy of it it's the original okay and that because it's original and unique, has value. You can sell it to somebody else.

You can use it as your avatar. You can do whatever you want with it. It's yours. And so essentially, a lot of companies, a lot of people, celebrities are doing these NFTs, artists, and people are buying them. And they're either going up in value or going down in value. They're like a token. They're very similar to cryptocurrency. Just like you could buy Bitcoin, you can buy an NFT. So what I'm doing is I've actually dropped my first line of NFTs. We're doing three drops. And if you own all three of my NFTs, you're going to own a piece of the screenplay that I'm writing for a movie set in this NFT

space. Okay. Let me ask you a question here. Sorry. So this is where I got confused. So it's this digital piece. It's a picture. Yeah. Okay. So it's a picture and it's in your registration that it's yours is on this thing called the

blockchain. Right. But then there's it's officially you minor you buy with Ethereum. So you have to use Ethereum to buy them. It costs point oh six Ethereum for one of these little images. Oh, that's what it cost originally. Now it's it's it costs more because that was the minting price. So had you been one of the people who bought the first six thousand, that's what you bought them for. But now they're tradable for much more depending on the market. So NFTs can only be bought with crypto because that's what identifies you as the owner in the blockchain. It can only be bought as crypto. And when you buy it, something called a smart contract is formed, which logs that NFT on the blockchain. So basically, your NFT is logged just the same way Bitcoin or Ethereum is. So you buy it with Bitcoin so you buy it with bitcoin or well you buy

it with ethereum um but then it itself is a token so let's say i had shot some video yes of and it's one-of-a-kind video of uh bill clinton taking a bong rip and and then and then blowing the smoke into hillary's mouth it's a 15 second clip. Okay. You're saying that I could. You could mint that into an NFT. Uh-huh. And sell it as one unique. Or you could make 10 copies of it and sell it as 10 unique NFTs of that.

That are logged as 1 through 10. And people could own that. Yes. Or if I don't have that footage, I could make the animation and. And you can make an, well, you can make an NFT of anything you want. And then how is this connected to the real world, which is your script? That's the part where I start to get a little bit different. So there are some NFT projects that you've probably heard of, like the board apes where it's really just an image people buy it.

And that gives them entrance into a community. So if you own a board ape, you can go to live events, you can go on these special discord websites and talk to other people who own board apes, you can just put it up there for status, I own a board ape, because they cost tons and tons of money. What we're doing, our NFT project is a little different, it's I wanted to create a community around my books, people who like to read my stuff, people who like the stuff that I write about. So I launched NFTs that are based on, you know, the first one was about meme stocks because I just wrote a book about meme stocks. My second NFT that's coming out, which is going to be free to everyone who owns the first NFT, is going to be about Bitcoin and billionaires and the Winklevii twins. And then

the third NFT I'm doing is going to be about Vegas. If you own one of each of those three, right, then I'm writing a screenplay. So it's going to be a movie and I'm going to split the proceeds with my NFT holders. So it'll add utility and value to your NFT. Also, if you sell the screenplay for, um, I'm just making this up for ease of math, $1.2 million, 50% of that was 50%. That would be $600,000. And so every person who bought the NFT would get a thousand, $10,000. No,

no. It depends on how many NFTs there are people. So aren't there 6,000? Um, but the math is going to be a little bit different. There's 6,000, but there are people who are multiple. Okay.

Okay. There's a right now about 3000 holders of my first NFT. Of the 6000. Okay. There's 3000 of the first 6000. The second drop will only be one per wallet. So the second drop will be much smaller. Right now it would be 3000 pieces.

And then the third drop will be 6000 again. So there's some game theory involved as people collect. Also, the NFTs have rarity features. So if you look at my NFT pictures, there's like different characters on the rockets. Some of those are worth three script tokens. So you could actually end up with more of the pie, depending on which NFTs you own. Is it random, which one you get? When you minted it was, but now you can go on OpenSea and buy the one you want. So they cost more more like the rare ones

are going for i think like 0.2 eath right now um so people who got them at 0.06 ended up you know quadrupling their money already if they wanted so that's one part of it well i'm not doing this to you know some people are speculating and do this you know for the revenues and stuff like that but i think it's more about if you go on the Discord, we have this whole community. There's like 9,000 people on it. I'm telling stories from my life in one channel so you can read all of my adventures. There's going to be people getting invited to my book parties who own my tokens.

There's going to be a live poker event in Vegas when COVID kind of slows down for all NFT holders are going to get to come to Vegas and go to an event. I'm going to do writing lessons for anybody who wants, who own NFTs and want to do writing lessons. Like there's going to be lots of real world. So what I'm trying to do is bridge, you know,

between the tokens and the real world via the community. So that's the idea, which is really cool. It's basically, it's hard to describe. It's kind of like, you know, how sub stack people just, you know just give money and an author writes something and they get to read, right? What's cool about NFTs is you actually own a piece of it. So it's not like you're just a subscription to something.

You buy the NFT, it's tradable. So it goes up in value and it gives you access to all of these different things. And you actually are gonna hopefully when the movie gets made, get a piece back. So it's another way of writers and journalists and people like that to build a community. But the community gets to participate. So I think it's cool. I think we're hopefully breaking new ground with the way I'm doing my NFT.

But NFTs as a whole, it's becoming a giant thing. Because things like Nike, giant brands are going to get into it. And they already are getting into it. Top Shot at the NBA has made a fortune with little clips. I don't know if you've been following what they've been doing, but you can buy a 10 second shot of LeBron making a basket. And they come in these little packs, just like trading cards. And they've made billions of dollars doing this already. Wow. And then you actually own that that so then like if you wanted to

okay so here's where it gets interesting okay with with what the nba is doing you you own this card basically which is which is a video of lebron making a basket but you would not be allowed to rebroadcast that ah that was that was my question. But you don't necessarily own the copyright to it. There are people who are doing that. So there are people who are literally putting music as an NFT. You buy it, you own it. So that is a second. That's another way you could do an NFT.

But here's an interesting thing. So people are like, well, you buy a picture, but you don't own the rights to the picture. Why does it have value? You could also think about the fact that, for instance, the Mona Lisa is hanging in a museum somewhere. There are millions and millions of posters that are exactly the same in rooms or whatever. It doesn't diminish the value of the original Mona Lisa. So if you buy an original NFT, even though many people could make copies of it, the original has value because it's the original. Are you buying that, Sousa? That's some tricky shit he just said. Well, the blockchain, I think, is what matters there because that seals the contract and then mints it as yours. So that's what makes it there. But it takes a little bit to wrap your head around it, right? I mean, look, I mean, board apes right now. so a board ape, you've seen these little pictures, right? Can you pull one up, Susie? I don't know what he's talking about. Okay. Those things go for $300,000. That's why he wants to buy one of those, but anybody could just

right click that board ape and, and have that picture, right? You could, you could just save that picture on your phone right now. And you didn't pay any money for it, right? The original still costs $300,000. And that's what's intriguing about this is even though it's an image that is copyable, you're not actually copying the rights, what makes it unique, which is it's logging onto the blockchain. These are the board aids. And these things are worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, the originals. So it's kind of intriguing. It's like each one is a work of art that you can own,

that you can trade instantly, that you can use as your avatar or whatever you want that holds value the same way any cryptocurrency holds value. Man, they're cool. Who made those? The Bored Ape is worth billions now, the company. There's a company, I don't know who the specific artist is. But now these have become like a status symbol to some degree.

You own a Bored Ape. There are DJs that are just Bored Apes now, right? There's a whole industry building around this. I was interviewed the other day on a podcast by a Bored Ape. So it was literally- Oh yeah, I saw that. I was wondering what that is on a podcast by a Bored Ape. So it was literally. Oh, yeah, I saw that. I was wondering what that is. That's what it is. And so it's a community. The whole point of it is community, that the people who own Bored Apes are part of a group of people who figured out a way into it and now have access to each other and things like that so um it's

intriguing the nft community i think nfts are going to explode over the next year like become mega mega mega business every brand is thinking about how to get into it hollywood is trying to figure out how to get into it the nba and the mlb and nfl are all getting into um because it's it's it's like trading cards we used to collect trading cards. Now you're going to trade them digitally, but they're worth more because they're unique. They're unique the same way that trading cards were unique, but you could trade them online instantly. And I don't know what I'm talking about, but bear with me here. The difference between the Mona Lisa hanging in the Louvre and the one in your dorm room is that the one hanging in the museum has a fingerprint on it where he accidentally fell on the painting. It has some of his wife's menstrual blood in the signature. It's caked in thick. There's a story behind it where –

Yeah, but the original NFT has a log on the blockchain. Okay. So that's it. Yeah. And that's the signature, basically. That's the sign of it that you can't recreate. You know, you can't. There's only one original.

Or if you minted 10, there's 10. I mean, it depends on how the NFT got done to do it. But similarly to the Mona Lisa, there's one original Mona Lisa. There can be a thousand exact replicas of that. And they're getting better and better. Replicas are getting closer and closer to exact, right? So, you know, it doesn't diminish the value of the original. The authenticity is what you're paying for.

Can you tell an original, your board ate from a right clicker? No, it would be exactly the same, except you could see it on the blockchain, though. Remember, the blockchain is open. So anybody could go look at that and know that you have the original one. They know, you know, your wallet basically is seeable, but only get into the by you. So yeah, so the way crypto works, it's like it's you can't copy bitcoins, right? You can't create bitcoins that each one is logged on the blockchain. Similarly, you can't create an exact replica of the original, even though it can look like it, it's not going to have that blockchain connection.

Exactly. original even though it can look like it it's not going to have that blockchain connection exactly it's almost safer because inside the blockchain is where the value is stored so although i could recreate this mona lisa and maybe sell it to somebody as a fake and they think it's the real with the actual exchange of money happened i've ripped them off but the blockchain eliminates that from happening because the contract is stored within there and it's open anybody could see where it went and it would be impossible right you would know the real board eight while someone could sell you a fake mona lisa and in fact the way things are going right now a forger could potentially make an exact replica of the mona lisa um that is possible but you couldn't um replicate uh you know an nft right

right it'd be impossible so it's actually a safer stored value of the asset you're in the nft game are you uh you a collector no no i just try to be familiar with it that's all um since you put out your own and it was putting out your own NFT, like part of like this amazing learning curve. Like, yeah. So I was looking at, so the Winklevoss twins sort of introduced me to this world. They, they were big into this. They own a company that does this.

And they were talking to me about how the future of everything of art, of writing, of music, it's really going to be in this NFT space because it gives the artist, the creator, the musician, the ability to, to, to, to own this, to make money off of it without having a middleman the same way crypto does to create a whole community around your art or whatever it is. And that funds it that's incentivized to make it succeed. So it's pretty intriguing from an artist's point of view. And so I looked at, I was like,

should I write about this? Am I going to do a book about this? Am I going to write a movie about this? There's been lots of great stories in this realm. And then I started to think, I started to think about it in a different way. I was approached by a couple of people who are big in this space who said, you know, you should really just drop an NFT and see if your writing community is interested in it. And then we came up with the idea, let's take it a step further and let them have a piece of the movie I'm going to write. And so we might even fund the movie via NFTs, have the community own the movie as a whole, have a big movie premiere. If the movie doesn't, the community will be generating the revenue from it. And so it's a really cool idea. And so the first drop was an experiment

and it sold out almost instantly. We sold out our 6,000 pieces very quickly. And then the discord grew from a few hundred people to eight or 9,000 people in a week with no publicity, no pumping, nothing like that. So I know we're onto something interesting and hopefully it'll continue to grow. And my goal is to launch other authors on the

platform so have other authors come and the ben ft we're calling it ben ft's or ben ft ends with ben ft's uh if you have a ben ft it'll give you entrance to the next author and hopefully we'll build on this and author other big authors will come on launch an nft maybe tie it to a book um tie it to a movie, tie it to a television show. And I really see this as becoming a real way of making art. I could write a book rather than going to a traditional publisher and sell 5,000 NFTs around it and then publish the book to the NFT holders. Yeah, I love that. And so I think podcasting, all of this stuff is going to move into the NFT space eventually because it's a much smarter, better revenue stream.

And it incentivizes the people who like your stuff to push your stuff because they own it. All right. They want the idea to go up. They bought these little pictures and they know the value of those will go up if my books do better. Right. So it's a really interesting, interesting dynamic. And as an author, it gives me the ability to have this group of a few thousand people that I can talk to daily. And I go on the discord. I'm

on there all the time telling stories or asking questions or they're telling me things. And you can't usually communicate with your audience like that as an author. As an author, you go to a book signing and there's 20 people there. Right. And even if you go on Twitter, it's like a megaphone. You know, you're speaking to a thousand people, but it's not they don't have access to you and you don't have access to them. This is very different. And I know they're there for the right reasons because they own a piece of it. And so, you know, they put a few hundred dollars into this. It matters to them. So I love it. I've been having a blast with it. And and people can buy them on OpenSea and then be a part of it. And then as we move forward, if this works, I foresee doing books this way, movies this way, TV this way and and see how it goes. and see how it goes. It, in one of your interviews, you talk about how you have 10,000 subscribers on discord.

I'm not really sure how discord works, but you talk about the power of that. When we would, when, when I was running the media department for at CrossFit Inc, we, every year we would release a documentary that would cover our CrossFit games.

And because the community was so ravenous, we would put it on iTunes or on Netflix and it would skyrocket to number one. And it would, it would stay there, um, for, for like weeks and weeks and weeks. And even with the documentaries or anything that won the Academy award, couldn't push it out. Or even Marvel movies couldn't push it out of the number one because our community was so ravenous, even though it's not as big as the Marvel universe, not, not even 1% because our community was so ravenous, they would buy it, and they would keep it up there. And it would be like this feeding frenzy. And when you said that,

I just love that. Because if you're 10,000 people pre-order your book on Amazon. It's enormous. I mean, that's the cool thing and the crazy thing. The book industry works in very small numbers. It's not like a movie comes out and a million people have to see the movie for it to be even a new moderate success. In the book comes out and a million people have to see the movie for it to be even a moderate success in the book industry. If a million people bought a book, it's like the biggest book of the year. Right. Ten thousand people is a very large number. So we'll see. Especially in a week, especially in a week. You can incentivize ten thousand people to buy your book or talk about your book. I mean, and not even just buy it, but go on Twitter or whatever and tweet about it. It's enormous. And so I do think this is a great model for industries like

publishing where there's just not that many readers, unfortunately. So if you can have 10,000 excited people around the project, it's going to be a big deal. So I do think it's awesome. Yeah, it's a community that's really passionate about something is more valuable and more powerful than anything else. And that's what I learned writing the GameStop book. You know, a few million people on Reddit moved all of Wall Street for a couple of days. I mean, it turned GameStop into the biggest company in the world because they were angry because they were on Wall Street wall street yeah and that's the power of nfts as well if you get a thousand people into it you know you can do a lot can you pull up that

book uh matt the anti anti-social network yeah yeah i can't wait to read this yeah this is a fascinating story and what i hear and it was just a year ago um when it all happened and it was just wild i mean a group of people sitting at home in the pandemic, angry as hell, saw Wall Street trying to screw over GameStop, which was a company that maybe shouldn't exist anymore. But we all love it. Those of us who grew up gaming, I went to GameStop all the time and go with my kids. I don't want to see it fail. And so when they saw that a hedge fund was shorting it, a group of people on Reddit just said, we're going to all buy this stock. And they sent the stock all the way to 500, right? Which is completely insane. Of course, then Robinhood stepped in and screwed everybody. Plug on the bottom side of it. And that's all in the story.

But you had a great explanation of that, by the way. Hey, here's another thing, guys. I guarantee you, if you don't know what shorting means, if you read this book, you will then now know what shorting means. If you heard about Robinhood and them screwing the people, if you read this book, you'll hear another perspective that I thought was fascinating in one of your podcasts about how Robinhood basically had to shut whether you want to believe it or not they had to shut down because they couldn't pay the the the collateral day rate that they needed because of the two-day delay in the purchase but man these books are so great and and you're making me really want to release an nft for no other reason than just i need to learn what it is and if you if you it's kind of like um some things you just have to do crossfit i encourage you to do crossfit too ben there's there's this huge misconception about it but if you were to walk into a gym and do some crossfit you'd be like oh shit this is totally oh this is totally different than i ever thought it was it's i mean it's it's one of the gnarliest communities i think on the planet

these people are all overachievers who just who take personal responsibility and personal accountability want to get better and they're in and they're in there. Yeah. But yeah, this is that whole NFT thing. I just love that you're doing that. That's yeah. I mean, it is a learning experience. It's funny because younger people get it much quicker than older people. And so it's been an awesome learning experience. I've told the story. My dad is 80 and he's like, why do people buy this? I don't even understand.

My kid is 11 and he's in the other room playing Fortnite, buying clothes for his Fortnite character. Right. Crazy, crazy. Automatically gets it. It's not even a question. He wants an NFT for his birthday. So this is what's coming. You know, you definitely know the next generation coming up that has grown up on video games and in the virtual world absolutely understands it instinctively why nfts are valuable and why they're going to be important so i do think it's worthwhile to learn about that world and and uh and it's cool it's fun that's the other thing that people don't necessarily get when they just look at it from an economic point of view it's really fun like bouncing around these discords and talking to people and figuring out what's cool and what's

not and by the way there's tons of like scams and rug pulls and a lot of dirty crap going on there that you have to be wary of. People getting, you know, that's part of the fun of understanding the pitfalls. There's so many fake things that pop up one day and they try to sell you an NFT and then the next day they're gone. So you have to know which projects are real and which ones aren't. So it's interesting. That's for sure.

Yeah, the community aspect that you have around, I think, is really smart because there's already a proven concept with the ownership, which is IKEA. Because why in the world would you buy something and then spend the time putting it together? But we know that as human beings, if we had an effort in building it i built that look at what i did so i value it more than it would have been valued without yeah so i really like that it's it's key it's key to all of this stuff and i really believe that value is now based on community not on anything else so like what wall street didn't necessarily understand about gamestop was that the fundamentals of the company didn't matter anymore. What

mattered was the community that wanted to succeed. So you didn't have to just look at who's the CEO or the bank, you know, bank notes or all this stuff. What you really had to understand where there were a million people who want this company to succeed. That's where the power is. And so, you know, that's, that's the same thing with NFTs. It's not important what the picture is necessarily or what you're actually getting. It's important that there's a million people who want it to succeed. And they all had a piece of the pie. They all had a piece of it making it succeed.

Yes. Self-incentivized. It's awesome. This YouTube station, this podcast only has 10,000 subscribers, the one you're on right now. And people in the space who have 300 000 subscribers who are in my space or 100 000 subscribers they're terrified of me and they're terrified because those 10 000 people are savages because we have a community we're really really tight-knit and so like i'll have these big ufc champions on and then they'll text me on the side

and be like holy shit i've been on podcasts i have three million subscribers i've never had so many people land in my dms wishing me good luck. And it's really interesting. Communities are, you know, communities are fascinating. I mean, that's great. And I agree with it. Like what, I'd rather have 10,000 people who are really into what I'm doing than a million people who just walk through, you know, because that's the difference, by the way, between a Twitter following and a discord built around NFTs. Or, you know, it doesn't matter that you have them. You see people on Twitter with a million followers and they tweet something and they get 30 likes, right?

Yeah, right. Those people aren't really there for you. And that's the important thing. Yeah, absolutely right. And in the book industry, if you have 10,000 people who are really into your books, you can have bestselling books. Yeah. Isn't that Seth Godin, 10,000 true believers or 10,000 true fans? That's great.

100%. Yeah. I'm going to say something a little harsh right here, but that's the difference between a female who has a million followers because she's barely clothed on her Instagram and a woman who has a million followers who's rarely taken off her clothes i guarantee you that those million followers who follow the woman who's rarely taken not that i have any problem with women taking off their clothes i think the female form is beautiful i think more people should do it i fucking encourage it women are i mean men too everyone should be taken off their clothes but there is there is a substance issue there that will um that has more depth to people who if you've earned those

million followers by keeping your clothes on mostly and you'll get a different quality not quality that's not fair you'll get a different kind yeah did your brothers marry jews that's great question what's what kind uh uh my younger brother wife converted okay my wife converted my no shit your wife converted yeah tanya's jewish yes wow she's a she's a jew yeah we are we uh she did it when she was nine months pregnant with my son um interesting enough her parents were like you should convert and it's funny because they grew up christian and going to church very religious but they were like, you should convert. And it's funny because they grew up Christian and going to church, very religious, but they were like, you know, be what your family is. Uh, it'll make things easier and life easier. And, and, um, she converted, I mean, we're not, you know, religious, uh, but we are, but you light a menorah. You do, you do like my wife, my wife's

Jewish. We, we light a menorah and a Christmas tree. We do an Easter egg hunt and we do Passover. We do it all. all listen i'm all for everything your kids get shitload of presents like my kids get a present every day of hanukkah and then they get christmas they fucking hate christians because christmas is only one day it's kind of fucked up but it's too much well i you know by the end of the hanukkah christmas season my kids are like ruined because they get a present every day so the rest of the month. So bad. Yeah, we do it all. I, you know, my son, well, the kids will get bar mitzvahed, but my parents' generation, Judaism was heavy

because they came out of the Holocaust. You know, their families came out of their parents. Their parents did such a number on them that Judaism was not easy. So when I grew up, my dad's Judaism was a much scarier, intense Judaism than my Judaism. Mine is like, have fun, you know, whatever. It's good food and bagels and things like that. So, yes. But yeah, my brothers both are with Jewish people now.

Yeah. And how old were you when you got married? And how old were you when you got married? Old. I was in my – gosh, I got married in 2007. That seems about right. 14 years ago? Yeah, that sounds right. 14 or 15.

I think I'm up to 38 maybe. You're approaching 40 when you got married. Yes, 38, 39. Yeah. And did you already have a kid, kid with her? No, no, no. It was funny. I met my wife and we dated a long time. I think seven years before we got married and I was like, postponing and stalling. And I was like, uh, first I was like, I'm not going to get married until I make the New York night best daughter list. And then I like made the best.

I thought that was gonna take a lot longer move the goalpost yeah i was you know i was afraid of of all of that of like settling down of the idea of like what would it do to my writing would you know but the reality is it was so much better um so um yeah so i i i have been married uh 15 years now i guess yeah the the idea of getting married is insane it's like going into a room and locking the door i mean theoretically like why would you do that why would i go into a room and lock the what i don't even want to close the fucking door my office it's freezing outside my office door is open i can see the outside world like i like why would i lock the door but i didn't get married i was with i told my wife we didn't get married for like 20 years i'm never getting

married and i'm never fucking having kids and then she then when she was 39 she's like hey i want one and i was like yeah sure like now we got money we'll do whatever and and then we ended up with three kids and then and then we got married and i'm so glad we got married but i was the same way i think the same way as you didn't make it doesn't make any sense to get married. Yeah. And now I'm glad I did. It's a I'm a fearful person in general. Let's put it that way. I'm just everything. I'm a I'm a hypochondriac. I'm anxiety ridden, fearful, you know. Oh, no. Stereotypical like. Yeah. But when I write my books, I go and do very dangerous things and I hang out with crazy over the top people. But in my real life, like, you know, a lot. So any change I fear, let's put it that way.

But but yeah, it ended up being a great, great situation. So have you ever made yourself cry writing like you killed a character or something? You start crying. You're like, what the – I mean I've definitely – no, it's all positive for me. There's never been like – I'm not that type of writer I think. So no, never really got – I've gotten like positive emotions and gone, wow, this is awesome, like excited and stuff like that. But never kind of the negative stuff. Did your parents think that you weren't going to were they getting concerned like i think my i think my wife's parents wanted her to marry a jew

and my parents wanted me to marry an armenian but there was a certain point came where they're like fuck it just get married someone get married someone have a kid my parents uh were like if you married and they were going to give tanya a car if she converted like it was like they they they tried to like sneak it on us so when i was i was never when we were dating they were like already starting to put the pressure on about the conversion thing um so they originally yes they wanted me to marry someone jewish then the conversion idea got into their head and they were like okay that's fine too um they even like i remember that we had been dating for a long time and we were got engaged and my mom was like

i found the perfect rabbi for you and she even set up the rabbi and it was one of those rabbis who will only marry you if you're already converted wow it was like this little trick to try and get my wife to convert but we didn't end up going with that rabbi um but yeah it uh yeah my parents really whatever whatever reason wanted us all to be married to Jewish people. Did you have to – go ahead. I didn't care. I mean, I'm not religious. I'm not – it's all fine.

I think that everybody should do whatever they want. I don't have any problem marrying non-Jews. It just ended up that way. What is your wife? What's her ethnicity? So her family's from Taiwan originally. So Chinese going back, but Taiwanese, native Taiwanese. So way back, they were kind of revolutionaries who her father procured the gun that was used

in the assassination attempt of the president of Taiwan, who was a pro China, Taiwan. So they were, they were devils. So he actually, they live in Louisiana because he was, he escaped Taiwan and was placed by the, you know, the CIA in Louisiana work to be hiding.

So they, and she grew up in like backwoods swamp country, Natchitoches, Louisiana, and then came to Boston for college. Does she have a twang? When I first met her, she had a southern accent. Yes, it was very cool. But now it only comes out when she drinks.

Yeah, it doesn't. Not often. Yeah. She's very beautiful, by the way. Yeah, she's very beautiful by the way. Yeah. She's a, she's, she's amazing. And, um, you know, she, uh, when she was in, uh, dental school, she was modeling on the side, then she got into acting a little bit and had a TV show in Boston for a number of years, um, on, on the NECN, which was a local station in Boston where she did, uh, was on the morning show for a

while and then had a show on, uh, um, about philanthropy and parties and fashion. So he was a fashion designer for a while and, and, um, yeah, so I've just done a lot of cool things. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. Well, um, Ben, we've had you for an hour and 47 minutes. Amazing. I think this is my longest podcast ever and I appreciate it. It was fun to talk a lot of a lot of cool stuff and uh i love being able to talk about all the stuff that i don't normally talk about so that was really cool

yeah i'll i i i dumped you into my google alerts i'll be following you as close as i can follow any human being uh outside of my kids and my wife um that's thank you thank you so much. I'm so excited. The new book, can we see it one more time, Sousa? Yep. The new book comes out February 22nd. It is called Midnight Ride. Midnight Ride. And it's a Da Vinci Co. style thriller. I think people will like it. All of the history and stuff is all kind of real research stuff. So it's going to kind of blow your mind if you thought you knew what happened in the Revolutionary War. It's going all kind of real research stuff. So it's going to kind of blow your mind if you thought you knew what happened in the Revolutionary War. It's going to kind of change some of your perceptions. But it's a really fun story

and I'm hoping, I'm doing the sequel right now, which will come out a year later, and we're going to do a movie as well. So if you want to check it out, check it out. And yeah, it should be out in bookstores. You can pre-order it now on Amazon or anywhere you want. And come find me on

Twitter or, or, or yeah, just that's probably Twitter or discord. And I'll talk about whatever you want to talk about, ask me whatever you want. And, uh, the NFT project is, um, just the Ben Mesrick project. And, um, again, find me on Twitter or discord and ask any questions you want. So I was lucky that I found you on Instagram? Yeah, I'm on Instagram now a lot more though. So yeah, cool.

I don't know how long it took me to respond to you because I don't look at it quite as much. It took a while. I thought, oh shit, this guy's not responding. I love Instagram. I love putting pictures up, but I put pictures up and then I look at pictures, but I barely look at anything else. And then I don't even notice I have messages because I don't use them. And I'm like, oh, crap, I have all these messages. I love Instagram.

I do. But I just have I've been focused on Twitter for whatever reason. And yeah, I should look at Instagram more, though. It is really cool. Anyone who's listening, I can't recommend enough Bitcoin Billionaire. It is the book that I read. Tonight, I'm going to finish the second half of The Social Network, the movie. And then I'm actually right when I'm done with that, I am going to dive right into the anti-social.

Yeah. Yeah. Check it out because we're making the movie this spring, summer to be out next fall. So check out that book. It's a really cool story. So yeah. Thank you. I really appreciate it. This is a lot of fun. I'm going to try and check out CrossFit now. I want to, I want to learn more. I want to learn more about it.

Go with your wife. Yeah. Go now before. Person like me could physically do it. Oh no, they'll take care of you. Go, go check out a few of them. Find one with a great coach. They'll scale everything down. They'll make it as easy as a possible as an, as an'll take care of you. Go check out a few of them. Find one with a great coach. They'll scale everything down. They'll make it as easy as possible as an entryway in for you. And I guarantee it, you'll like it. And then circle back around for us for the 12-part series. Oh, yes.

Oh, yeah, Ben, I'm telling you. I'm telling you, if you ever like you want a unique excuse to come to Santa Cruz, California, and you want to write it off, you can come, and I'll pitch you on this, show you my book of sex lives. I know there's a great story there. That's awesome. So you should definitely get it out there, I bet. Especially if you've got an audience. Nah, I keep my friends. I keep my friends. I'm going to keep my friends. Oh, that's the good stuff. But anyways, listen, I appreciate it. Thank you so much. And I'll

look into that stuff. And we'll be in touch. We'll be bugging you. Oh, you have a Yahoo email account. That's for the good stuff. But anyways, listen, I appreciate it. Thank you so much. And, uh, I'll look into that stuff. So, and we'll be in, we'll be in touch. We'll be bugging you. Oh, you have a Yahoo email account. That's the, that's for the next episode. AOL. AOL. AOL. Yeah. Even worse. AOL. I'm way back in the, I wish I still had my old CompuServe.