The Sevan Podcast - #318 - Dr. Moses Bernard

Episode Date: March 3, 2022

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We're live. Maybe there's a button I can push that makes it. So, um, let me see what this one does. Ah, how's that? There we go. Look,

you can see my nose hairs. You can't. I know. I'm, uh, I'm only five, five Moses. I've spent a lifetime at, uh, looking at people's nose hairs you can't see my nose hairs i know i'm uh i'm only five five moses i've spent a lifetime at uh looking at people's nose hairs i've become and i'm quite i accept them now with uh with you know the first time i see him i was a little uh shocked and i'm like you know what that's going to be my perspective i'm going to become a connoisseur of nose hairs because i'm

going to spend my life looking at people's noses and what have you discovered about my nose hairs from that i haven't i'd have to be staying how tall are you i am six one oh i'd be staring all up in that shit i'm five five i'm uh i'm having a guest on the show um next week i'm armenian and like my whole life i've just thought that armenians were short and then i went to armenia and, no, it's just me. But I'm having this Armenian guy on the podcast next week and he's 6'5". Oh, 12 inches taller than me. That is very, very large. I did this program with the NFL Players Association for retired players.

And a lot of those guys, like you don't really appreciate how big they are until you're around all of them at the same time. And like even small players are like six, four to 40. So like trying to treat someone's neck when it's like this big, it's like they're just large humans. So I feel that. Yeah. Is it like that? So you're a chiropractor. Yep. And what is a chiropractor?

So my role as a chiropractor is I really focus on just getting people to use their bodies better. Traditionally, it started with this idea that bones being out of place, pinched on nerves, and every problem in the body was associated with that. Fortunately, most chiropractors have extended beyond that mindset. But for the most part, these days, chiropractors are musculoskeletal experts that are focusing on getting the body to do better movement-based things. And muscular skeletal experts. I would hope so. And that's regardless if the body's in movement or sedentary or just the body,

just all the trials and tribulations that the human body goes through. Well, yeah. And there's going to be different expert or different specialties within the profession. So there's people who really focus just on accident and injuries. You got into a car accident, your neck and your low back has blown a disc and they just really focus on getting you out of pain there. Some people like myself focus more on trying to get people who are already pretty healthy to the next level.

And there's really everything in between. Okay. Yeah. You, I had never seen, oh, am I going to screw this up? I've never seen. If there's something that messes up, then I'll correct it for you. I've never seen the tensegrity spine model. I never seen the tensegrity spine model.

Is that common now or is that still an obscure model? It's still obscure. There are ones floating around. The ideas around tensegrity have been around for a while, so probably like 40s and 50s and explaining human movement and biomechanics through that lens. The models are kind of tricky to make. There was this guy in like the 90s and early 2000s who made a bunch of awesome tensegrity models like of like the hip and the knee and like the hand and elbow and stuff like that. And you can Google them. So there's YouTube videos of them floating around, but he doesn't make models anymore. No one's actually making them. So I have a pelvis one.

There's a spine one that's floating around. That's okay. I've seen some better ones floating around, but there's just not that many. But the human body really only makes sense through that tensegrity model of the body and the tension elements being what's weight-bearing and not the bones and the joints. Say that last sentence again. What is weight bearing? So in the tensegrity model, yeah. So that model that you're showing there, I've got it here.

Oh, sweet. Okay. Yeah. Screw this picture. Let's see. And I start here because that was one of the, for me, just, I don't know, shit, except that I live with constant back pain. But when I saw that thing i was like and you explained it in a podcast that i watched of you i was like wow this this is i mean it all makes sense but please go ahead yeah so but i never thought of it like yeah so this is what most people think of when they think of the spine so we have bone we have disc we have bone and the way uh the anatomical can you hold that up again yeah yeah yeah and that when i um and

then when i put a barbell on yeah yeah yeah when i put a barbell on there to back squat those are your fingers and it squishes that thing in the middle yes so this is what like 99.9 percent of orthopedic surgeons chiropractors exercisers this is how they think the body works. Yeah. Like waterbeds in between your vertebrae. Yeah, exactly. And the way the studies did this is they took a human cadaver and they just dissected stuff away. They got rid of the skin, the muscles, the fat, all the connective tissue until this is what was left. And then they put this in under like a force plate and they saw how much force can this thing tolerate before the bulge happens. And they get a number and they say any activities that cause more force than that are dangerous. And that idea kind of makes sense. If we think of the scaffolding of the body,

like the scaffolding of a building, that idea doesn't make sense. But when you start measuring what the body can do in the real world, we have to kind of throw it out the window because just leaning forwards, it should be enough force to blow every disc in my back. It should be absolutely impossible for someone to deadlift a thousand pounds. Yet the human can do it. If we take one of the bones out of the foot, bring it to the anatomy lab, that bone can break pretty easily. So it's not that much force that it takes to break a bone. If you think of like eating a chicken wing, that bone's not that strong. So it's logical, but when you reverse engineer it, it makes no sense. Yeah, exactly.

By the way, that's sort of the thing with climate change too, which is fascinating about those theories. You can't look back. You can use climate change model to predict the doom and gloom coming in the future. But when you take that model and look backwards, it can predict the weather accurately it's only like a one-way model it's fascinating and i'm not taking a position on it but it's an interesting it's interesting yeah for sure uh so yeah so going back to the human body and the tense every models is when we look at peak forces in jumping or peak forces in landing from a clean, we know that those forces are several times the body weight or several times the weight of the system. So somehow we have a

foot bone that can only handle a few dozen pounds of pressure in the lab, but the foot bone when attached to the system can handle peak forces that are thousands and thousands of pounds. So this can't make sense if the bones and joints are weight bearing. It only makes sense if the muscles and the soft tissues do the main weight bearing and the bones just help distribute that weight around. Fascinating. And can you show us that? Yeah, for sure. So I'm going to show you what the pelvis model,

because it'll be easier to understand. So this is the pelvis model here. So those long ones are theoretically my legs dangling down yeah yeah so these these sticks on the side that would be your femur let's say okay and then this might be like the front and the back of your pelvis this might be like your asis and your psis part of your pelvis but for the most part just think of this as something in your leg pelvis complex but if you have upper body issues it could be your arms swinging as well okay okay so this system that we look at here i've got the mirror mode on the uh on the video here

so every time i like go left i want to go right here so if i do that a few more times uh apologies but anyways so you'll notice in this model here none of the sticks themselves are actually touching they're just floating there in space by the rubber bands, which are your muscles, your soft tissues. So when they are balanced in the right way, there isn't force actually going across the joint surfaces themselves. So functionally, we're for the most part degeneration proof if we can find a way to make this stuff balanced enough. the problems come from when it's not so it's not that degeneration is inevitable it's the degeneration is the byproduct of this

happening for extended periods of time go ahead go no no you go ahead i was going to say that is so let's go back to the spine model and kind of talk about the same things. So in this spine model here, the sticks, none of them are touching. They're just floating there in space by the rubber bands. And the discs would live in the spaces in between here. And you'll notice that there is no force actually going through what would be the disc. It's all being absorbed by the rubber bands, the muscles and the soft tissues again. If things are working normally. And how do things stop working normally?

So that is a loaded question. And this is why pain can be a little bit complicated because it's could be for a lot of reasons so for the spine one of the reasons might be you lose the ability to use all the parts of the spine properly so when i go to bend and twist the whole spine should be helping me bend and twist but let's say i've got a bunch of stiffness in like the top part of my spine and nothing real and all the movements happening from the bottom so now something like that okay okay instead of that happening so sometimes when you like see people doing like the ghd sit up and it looks like they're just folding from one part of their back yeah that's what we want to avoid right so we want it to look more like a smooth curve going each direction and not just one piece

doing everything. Man, there must be some backbending videos on YouTube that just make you utterly cringe, huh? So yes and no. I mean, it's one of those things where I've been around this long enough that I know that the human body is pretty adaptable and it can get away with a lot more than most people think. So I look at something and I say, okay, you're putting more stress onto that part than some other part of your body. Can you handle it? Is the question. Have you trained yourself enough to be able to tolerate that one piece doing the job of your entire spine? Maybe yes, maybe no. I come from the CrossFit world and, know there's these there's these strict guidelines

on deadlifting right foot placement the the curvature of the back all of that stuff and then within the CrossFit community there's people like who are introduced to me at a young age oh thank you so much my notes and then there's people within the CrossFit community who are extremely strong, who don't follow those rules. Like in the first person I saw was like Rob Orlando picking up stones. And at that point, I knew that there was some wiggle room in the belief of how things should be picked up. And then – and he didn't have back pain. And he would completely roll over and arch his back and cup the ball. And he would do these movements that were wrong, dangerous. But he did them beautifully. He did them in control, and he did them over and over.

And then when I see the strongman world, and then I saw this on your, and I personally love forward folding. I love forward fold. It gives me such relief in my back, especially once I'm warmed up. And I've always been told by people, don't do that. Don't do that. Don't do that. It's just momentary pleasure you're receiving. It's actually exacerbating your problem. But there was something that you do on your Instagram and i think it is called the um uh jefferson curl oh yeah yeah this is it and i thought yeah this is a i probably shouldn't start by showing this one people at home don't do this one please don don't. Like I spent years and years and years working up to this level of ability. So please don't do this at home.

Okay. And so when you're doing that, where is Moses? Are you in your spine? Like your awareness? Do you know what I mean by you? Yeah. No, that is a really, really good question. And what I'm really focusing on doing as I do a lift like this is making sure that I'm feeling the load being distributed to different places.

So I'm making sure that as I'm bending forward, it's like, hey, do I feel a little tension here? Do I feel some here? Do I feel some here? Making sure that it's evenly distributed and I'm not feeling too much tension in any one spot. I know that if the whole spine is distributing the load, it's going to be safe. I know that if any one place starts taking on way more stress than it can handle, that's where things start to get a little dicey. For those of you who are watching this,

you need to know one thing very quickly about Moses. Moses has a max deadlift of 621 pounds, I believe. And he has a triple weight deadlift of 600 pounds. And I don't have it here in front of me, but he drew a curve, basically a bell curve, that showed the perfect position, I guess, of, you know, the, the perfect position, I guess, of a deadlift, I guess what we learn in CrossFit. And then these two, not that they're called imperfect or wrong, but one that's like the Jefferson curl. And then the other one that was overextended, right? Yeah. And if you work on those also, and this should make sense to all CrossFitters who've taken their L1, you raise the room under the curve.

You may not increase your max deadlift, but you, my words, not Moses's, build protection for when maybe you are out of the perfect position. Exactly, because we can't guarantee that things are going to go perfectly, and CrossFit is a sport where fatigue is a factor. Yeah. Fatigue and speed, right? Exactly. So if we know that we're adding fatigue and speed to the equation, we know that there's going to be times where our spine deviates from that neutral position where we're going to be the strongest. And when that happens, we want to make sure we have some level of resiliency so it doesn't end up being snap city. Right. Um, how, how old are you? I'm 39. Oh, wow. You look good. Uh, and how's your, how's your back? Does your back look, feel good?

My back feels great. Uh, actually, uh, something I'm planning on doing this year. So my goal for my training season is a double bodyweight Jefferson curl. And I have an MRI from several years ago of my low back. And I want to take an MRI like the day that I do the Jefferson curl to show that, hey, just because you're rounding your back doesn't mean that you're going to blow stuff up. Yeah, that feels great. Yeah. That's awesome. I've maybe it's time. I don't accept it. A lot of people have talked to me about it, but I just accept my back pain and, and, and the sort of the, the manifestation of my back pain is, um, from, from a young age, I, I, I don't know, like in my twenties, I would have back pain and my back pain would be like, I'd be, I'd be on the toilet and I'd fart and my back would go out. And that would happen like four times a year, right? Just stupid shit. Or I'd go to catch a Frisbee and my back could go out. And then I started doing CrossFit. And instead of it going

out four times a year, when I was just like putting on my pants, it would go out twice a year and it would always be from deadlifts. Always, every basically every single time something crazy happened with deadlifts and um and then basically when i had kids i have kids now and so i stopped doing all all heavy deadlifts like basically i think in the last i stick at 135 i just put the 135 on after i'm really really warm and i'll'll do, you know, some workout like burpees, deadlifts, and, and, you know, something chill, chill for CrossFitter. And, um, and I've accepted the fact that every morning I wake up, not because I'm done sleeping, but because my back hurts, I have a cup of coffee. I warm up an hour later, my back pain's gone, but I'm careful then the rest of the day, right? Like I can't fuck up because I can't be stuck in bed. Cause I got three kids. I gotta take care of. But when I, when i read your work and i and i do all my

in the last two years i do all my um exercising with nose breathing so i try to i try i never breathe through my mouth while i'm exercising anymore and i kind of do that because um don't tell anyone this but it's allowed me to really dial back my intensity. That is actually something I use as my intensity gauge when I'm doing cardio things. Okay. Tell me about that. Because I always feel like I'm cheating and no one knows. Like I'm being really sneaky. I put this other rule in so I could be a pussy over here. You know what I mean? I kind of do the same thing. So my personal approach is I want to do stuff that's like really, really easy and really, really hard. And like, I don't have a ton of training time. So I need my training time to be effective.

I also need my training time to not crush me so bad that I can't focus on my job. Like if I absolutely destroy myself and my back's too sore. Like I can't bend over and treat patients. So there's a balance between my fitness goals and being able to actually do my job. So I, my cardio stuff, I have been really focusing on keeping my heart rate pretty low and being able to breathe through the nose the entire time. And I noticed that if I feel the urge to start breathing through my mouth, intensity is too high. I back down a little bit. Now, if you even do that, like on the rower and on the assault bike, um, I don't do those things anymore. So I, uh, I don't, um, I ran track in college. I was a 400 meter runner and I did a lot of anaerobic suffering and i don't really want to anymore okay so right now my folk my training focus is high level strength performance and base aerobic

fitness so i really don't sorry what is tell me about base aerobic fitness. And so I look at my fitness goals kind of through the filter of epidemiology in terms of what do we know are the things that are killing us and what are the things we know are creating disability. So leading causes of death in America, number one, heart disease. Like blow, like by far and away, number one, heart disease, like blow, like by far and away, number one is heart disease. Number two is usually are some type of respiratory disease. So having a shitty heart and shitty lungs is the most number one, number two, most likely things to kill you. So I look at my cardio workouts through the lens of trying to make it so they don't die of the leading causes of death in america and and okay go on go on so with that it's just accumulating time just accumulating time with a moderately elevated heart rate doesn't need to be 180 it's just moderately elevated when it gets into

performance world yeah you need to get that heart rate up there and get on the assault bike and stuff like that but my goal is not endurance performance it's what do you do what do you do to warm up for endurance stuff or for strength stuff um but both let's start with strength stuff okay so strength like you personally. Yeah. Yeah. So my warmup is I will do, uh, something called controlled articular rotations. So there's just controlled joint movement. So just trying to work the full range of motion of any joint that's going to be used in that workout and try to get just some sensory awareness into the joint in question.

And then I'll start to get into my warmup sets. So this, so, so this is, this is in your post here. It says cars live. Tell me what that stands for again. So it's controlled articular rotations.

Controlled articular rotations. And what's interesting is at the end of this video, you have a huge smile on your face like you got some endorphins going and you're sweating. Yep. So the goal of a warm-up is to literally increase the core body temperature and prepare the joints for the movement you're going to do. To warm the core body temperature and prepare the joints for the movement you're going to do uh to be to warm the core temp and why is that important the core temp so our muscles perform better at a increased core core body temperature yeah so that's basically so i it's interesting in this this routine i think of the controlled articular rotations. Did I say it right? We call them CARs just to make it easy.

So make one syllable instead of many. There's a bunch of these on your Instagram. Basically, I saved this one because I'm going to do this one today. I'm going to put it up on my phone and try to chase you down through this as you do this. because I'm going to do this one today. I'm going to put it up on my phone and try to like to chase you down through this as you do this. But this one's like probably 15 minutes and the other ones are a little bit longer that I saw on there, like 20 minutes. But what I, maybe I'm just, what I do is I just get on the assault bike and I ride it. I ride a hundred calories in 10 minutes. That's kind of the pace I go in there. It seems safe because I'm sitting down. I try not to let my

hip go up and down. I try to get, you get you know controlled i try to get into like a little bit of a rhythm and then after 10 minutes i have some beads of sweat going and that's the only reason why i do it to warm up because i can't touch my toes when i'm before i get on the bike and when i get off the bike i can touch my toes yeah so when your body is more warm your muscles perform better you've got more flexibility and it's kind of the lazy version of cars. It is something that is moving the needle the right direction. Right. You're a good dude. You're a good dude, Moses. You are a good dude. So I graduated from school a little over 10 years ago. And the deeper I get into my career,

the more I realize that it's about just the tiniest gains possible. So just anything that's moving you the right direction, I'm a fan of. Right. I've got, I've got my, my philosophies about things that are going to move you the right direction faster, but ultimately if anything you're doing is moving the needle, it's working for you. Yeah. Um, uh, I remember Greg used to say that too. He said one time he made fun of some sort of workout and he said, and his client started crying. This is Greg Glassman. And afterwards he walked up to her and he goes, he, he said, he said, he apologized to her and he said, he'll never do that again. That he just realized that like, Hey, any movement anyone is

doing, you should be like. Absolutely. When we, especially when we look at the data on how much people are actually moving. So if we look at like the minimum fitness requirements of like 150 hour or sorry, 150 minutes a week of movement, it's like two hours in change of just moving your body. So elevated heart rate and at least two strength sessions a week. So something where you're actually trying to either maintain, excuse me, maintain or build muscle mass. It's like under 20 percent of people hit those requirements. Sorry, I'm falling into the weeds here. Are pull ups considered trying to build muscle?

Yeah. Yeah. OK, good. Yeah, for sure. So yeah. So I live kind of under the pull-up bar yeah so if you do a pull-up session twice a week and you go for a 30-minute walk every if you walk your dog for 30 minutes every day that's meeting the fitness requirements

um four out of five people don't hit those numbers so anyone who does kudos to them. Big time. You have a fabulous website. It is kind of amazing that you would think Moses Bernard is like a common name. But as soon as you type in this guy's name into maybe he's just the big dog of all the Moses Bernards. But this is you, right? Yeah. A beautiful site, by the way. For those of you who want to see more, you should definitely go over to this site. And there is a huge emphasis on movement and adjusting movement to not alleviate pain, to banish pain, rid your body.

So pain is complicated, but for the most, to simplify it, pain is your brain thinking things aren't safe. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. That's why sometimes you feel the pain when your kid's running at you and about to jump on you, but he hasn't quite got to you yet. And you start to feel, you're like, oh, I'm about to feel some pain. Exactly.

Yeah. So in terms of things being safe, the factors that will contribute to that is one is the evidence of harm. So if there's actual damage present, that's a signal for pain. Not guaranteed, but it is one of the variables that can potentially lead to your brain saying, hey, this is a painful situation. So I got shot in the arm, ow, it hurts, okay? But if I'm trained Navy SEAL,

I might be in the middle of a mission and get shot in the arm and not even notice it until the mission's over. Right, fighting's a classic example, right? When I interview a lot of fighters and they say after the fourth punch, you don't, even they may even be harder, but but they don't hurt somehow you've adjusted to it yeah so the other factor is evidence of safety so your brain thinking things work properly now what are some

of the things that can make us feel safe so strength is a huge one warmth is a big one uh flexibility is a good is a big one and body control is a big one so if my back is strong and it has great sensory awareness and it has good flexibility my brain's most likely to say hey things are pretty safe here no need to create pain yeah you actually in one of the videos I saw, you were talking about that. I had never heard it explained like that. If you have a, I don't even know if I can articulate,

but you talk about the joints and being aware of the joints and having healthy joints and how that gives you safety and having awareness there. And I have the exact opposite. I have it where I have pain in my life. I have insecurity in those joints and I don't have awareness in those joints. It's kind of like, it's kind of like I'm staring at them from the outside going, what's going on in there. Yeah. Something I like to comment on is think of it like a GPS signal. So you've got a gps signal from every joint in your body going

back to your brain telling your brain where it is in space and time you know sometimes you're like going through a tunnel or you're in a like a high overpass and the gps signal goes from being a point to being more like a cloud it's like hey you're kind of in this area but we don't know exactly where when parts of our body aren't as healthy that's what we find is kind of your body's gps is more of a cloud than it is a pinpoint and that cloud says well i kind of know where i am but not really so maybe take it easy yeah what is that um this hasn't happened to me in a long time thank god but this used to happen. This is all my injuries. So I would hurt my – I would be deadlifting somewhere.

I'd be at the gym at CrossFit HQ. I'd be deadlifting, and I'd feel something. It just didn't feel right, like almost like something moved, like some bones and shit. And then I would panic. I would go home. I'd dig through like my old Vicodin stash, pop two Vicodin, pour a huge glass of wine and try to just know myself. And then that night I'd barely stand up and I'd look in the mirror and my torso wouldn't be over my – like I would literally be crooked. It's a scary thing.

Like someone put me together wrong. So what that is – What is that? Okay, so that is what we call a – You've seen that, right? That's like – All the time. Yeah, absolutely.

It's very, very common. So it is what's called a you've seen that right that's like all the time yeah absolutely it's very very common so it is what's called a local segmental buckle so one part so if we have so we've got my spine here again okay now if all of my bending is being done just at one spot instead of evenly distributing the load through the whole thing. Eventually there might be some movement, whether it is I'm tired at the end of a deadlift workout, or I twist the wrong way. If this piece has been doing all of the work, maybe one day it decides I've had enough of it and it tweaks. And when it tweaks, the whole thing can kind of shift a little bit.

And then it goes into spasm to try to protect it again, which doesn't feel very good. And when you sayasm those are muscle spasm yep okay so if i've strained this uh-huh the whole system kind of spasms up to try to protect it yeah crooked yeah so what ends up happening is so think of it like you twist an ankle you hear the pop uh-huh the whole thing swells up you walk funny on it for a few days yeah and eventually it's starting to feel bad yeah i've never had twisted my ankle but i've slept funny on my neck to where it's like it's all jacked up not in years but i remember that yeah yeah and it hurt and it hurts for a few days and then it just subsides yeah and that's

what's very common with back injuries the problem with the back is because those muscles are so deep in the spine and they're so close to some of those nerves when there's inflammation at that deep level the whole system just kind of gets pissed off and it feels like it's a much bigger emergency is um sorry we're all over the place but but I'm just so excited. How, how about being overweight when, when I know weight sits differently on different people, but how, how severe is it that, you know, we have, uh, in the last two years, the average, or I think I should probably say it exactly how I heard it in the last two years. I've heard that 40% of the population has put on 30 pounds or more. That's a lot. Yeah. And I think I, and it looks like it when I go outside and I walk around my, like Santa Cruz, California, it looks like it, but,

but I mean, over the last 30 years, I've only seen people getting fatter and fatter anyway. So I don't, I, it's hard to say that it was because people, the, the, the restrictions that have been put on people the last two years, but I'll buy it. But how bad is that? Because I always think of that as like carrying around – when I think of 40 pounds, I think of those bags of dog food. You know what I mean? Like, holy shit, that person is 120 pounds overweight. They're carrying three of those?

So the thing is it's not like carrying three bags of dog food because – Because it distributes evenly or – Well, and it doesn't show up overnight. Right. Okay. Okay. So if you added like a one pound meant like, um, sandbag to this shoulder and then tomorrow one to this shoulder, then the next day, one here, then the next day, one here. Um, I'd be able to adapt to that in a way that it wouldn't feel as dramatic as picking up three bags of dog food at the same time. However, there are certain things that we know about extra weight. So if we jump back to

our model, if I already have some imbalance that's causing these bones to be touching when they're not supposed to be. And then I add 40 pounds of stress to that. It's now just accelerating the problem. So if we think of like high impact things, the reason we don't, the reason people stay away from high impact isn't that high impact is bad. It's usually they already have something that's dysfunctional and high impact is just exposing that dysfunction yeah added weight is just going to expose and accelerate whatever dysfunctional joint things are going on and that's from the orthopedic um how we feel side of things if we go back to the what kills us side of things, if heart disease is the number one killer, adding an extra 40 pounds of fatty tissue that requires an extra 40 pounds of miles of blood vessels that need to percolate through that tissue, and I still only have one pump that

can get the blood to all of that tissue, pump is now under way more strain yeah so i care a lot about how people feel but i care a lot more about people staying alive right right and and you kind and you alluded to that right off the bat even when we talked about um doing cardio which is funny that you say you don't do cardio but then after talking to you and from my perspective well no i do cardio i just don't I just don't do like assault bike. Pancake stuff? Yeah. You could ride it like a baby like me.

Just breathe through your nose. Yeah, exactly. I want to talk about being a chiropractor. You were born in Canada? Yeah. I was born and grew up in central Canada. So born in Winnipeg. Grew up in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan.

I did my undergrad in Vancouver, British Columbia, then moved down to Texas for chiropractic school, decided I liked there not being snow around. So I moved to Florida. I really liked there not being snow around and just kind of stuck around. And are your parents still in Canada? They are. And are your parents immigrants from somewhere yes uh they are immigrants from the caribbean so you're the first generation yes a canadian and um wow that's a that's that's a that's quite the uh um climate change it's funny. I heard I follow climate and cultural. Yeah, I thought, well, I follow the UFC and there's a guy named Glover to share who's Brazilian, who's up in the northeast somewhere. I want to say like Vermont or Connecticut. And I follow him and I realize that the city he lives in has the largest number of Brazilians outside of like or in the United States. And I was just thinking like, wow, I'm guessing people do that, um, move up there

because of some economic reasons or one person moves there and then the family start coming there. But it's just fascinating to me that, uh, you think you would think that because of the weather, well, how do they adapt? How did your parents adapt? Like, do you feel more like you, um, now that you're in Florida, whatever the whatever the fuck that means yeah i like i used to like lotion my skin like molt like multiple times a day and i'd chapstick in my pocket 24 7 when i was on my north and like i would need to reapply chapstick every 30 minutes and this was my entire life so i just assumed that was a normal thing um i'd probably get nosebleeds maybe once a month or something like that.

And then I moved to Texas and I realized after like about a month, month and a half, I was like, hey, wait a minute. I haven't actually had to use my chapstick since I've been here. Weird. Oh, I haven't needed to moisturize my skin as much since I've been here. Kind of weird. And so, yeah, I feel like my body just likes the heat and the humidity a lot more than it enjoyed being up north yeah i went to lake tahoe it's probably just it's not even so far north but it's the elevation change i'm in san i'm at sea level and i went to lake tahoe this year and every

year i go there and it's at probably like five or six thousand feet and instantly when i get there my nose dries up and i start having bloody noses every day i'm like yeah i'm not supposed to be here and that chap lip shit is insane yeah absolutely okay so your first generation up there then you come any chance you're going to bring your parents down like you're going to be like yo split they they like it up there so my mom's cold yeah okay uh all my family's still up there sister brother nieces nep nieces, nephews. They're all up there, and they like it. Yeah, I like this lifestyle. There's a guy named Nicky Rodriguez in Austin, Texas. He's a jiu-jitsu guy.

Every time I interview him, he has his shirt off. I like the rich froning, always have your shirt off. I like this, especially now that I'm 49. I like this, you just have your shirt off i like this especially now that i'm 49 i like this you just have your shirt off all the time sweaty lifestyle like i just think in a hot environment humid i just think the i don't know if it's a if a chiropractor can say it but clinically i just think it's it's better for your whole entire body all your muscles your bones my philosophy on like what's good for us is based on what have we been doing the longest and wearing clothes all day every day is a pretty new thing in evolutionary history

so our species has like tens of thousands potentially hundreds of thousands of years where we weren't indoor all the time and in clothes all the time. So I think that kind of shirt off being sweaty in the sun, breathing fresh air experience is part of what it is to be human. Yeah. Do you get much of that? Like do you, now that you're in Florida? Well, when I was a kid i remember like going through junior high and hating sweating and then all through high school hating sweating like if i started sweating i maybe would go into my car and turn the ac on i didn't even live in a hot environment i'm in the bay area and then i don't know what happened i think it wasn't until

i started crossfit and i realized holy shit what a stupid way to live my life to be afraid of sweating like this is it was i'm sure it was all vanity. Now it's like, I can't wait to get sweaty. I love going out on a hot day and letting those first uncomfortable beads of sweat start. And then just like embracing it. You're in Florida. You must, I guess you only have two choices to either trip or embrace it. Right? Pretty much. So I recently moved so I could walk to work. So right now I'm about a 10 minute walk to work. And when it's really, really hot out, I'm still walking to work. We'll just bring a change of clothes because even in 10 minutes when it's 95 degrees and pretty close to max humidity, it's like you're sweating no matter how slow you walk. So people, some of my patients will be like, man, it's like, it's so hot outside. I'm like, yeah, it's hot. Big deal. Yeah. I feel that way now about the rain too.

If it's pouring rain, I'll take my kids to the beach and they'll be like, what are we doing? And I go, we're going to go for a walk for 30 minutes or it's going to be cold. I'm like, well, we can just go home and get in a hot shower. So we're modern man. We can do it. We can have our cake and eat it too and then they go out we just go out and play in the rain yeah my office uh i'm in a yoga wellness studio and we

recently got a like a massive nordic sauna and we've got a bunch of cold tubs in the back so we have a these classes that are set up where it's like a sauna cold plunge class. So it'll be you're in the sauna. Our sauna gets like 200 degrees. It's awesome. So sauna for like 8 to 12 minutes, cold plunge for 3 or 4 minutes, and go back and forth 3 or 4 times over the course of an hour. And I've been doing it a couple times a week for the last couple of months. And I've noticed it's really changing my human relationship with one discomfort and two with just changes in body temperature. It's like, oh, I'm cold and wet, but I won't be eventually.

Yeah, I'm hot and sweaty, but I won't be eventually. Have you experienced any of those trippy highs that you get when you go from the super hot into the cold and like you basically can't stop laughing and you're, it's like someone dropped some MDMA in your shit. Absolutely. So I've been crazy, right? I've gotten to a place where I started doing like some breath holds, like in the cold water. So it's like my body temperature is up from the heat. I'll go in the cold. I'll get this like massive like blood pressure dump while I'm holding my breath. And like, there's some weird brain stuff going on. Like it's,

it's been pretty wild. I went to the first time that happened to me I was in Finland and I was naked with all these dudes and I wasn't uncomfortable it was actually I don't know if you know the guy was Miko Salo uh name sounds familiar he was the CrossFit Games champion 2009 and and we were up in Finland and we get into this sauna that's a that's overlooking just this body of water that's like frozen so we're in a bay and we're into this sauna that's overlooking just this body of water that's like frozen. It's like we're in a bay and we're in there forever. And then we walk out into this bay. So I'm feeling uncomfortable because I'm naked because I'm an American.

I'm not used to that shit. They're all stoic and shit. This episode is brought to you by PC Optimum. If you like a curated playlist, why not try a curated grocery list? With Swap and Save, the new feature in the PC Optimum app, you'll get PC Optimum's best price for your grocery items. Simply add products to your shopping list in the app, and it'll

show you similar items at a lower cost. Add coffee to your list, then swap it for one that's cheaper. Craving chips? The app will suggest some on sale. To get started, just open the app. It's as easy as that. See the PC Optimum app for details. In a way, that's only Scandinavians can be, right?

And I go in there and I come out and literally for 30 minutes, I'm just, me and my friend, we just can't stop laughing. And we're around, and they're just like, it was nuts. It was absolutely, it was one of the best experiences i've had in my life i bet yeah completely sober so so so you move so when you're up there is that when you decide to do chiropractic stuff yeah so i was in vancouver it was my third year of college and i tore my hamstring and the traditional route because you were a track

you're a track and field athlete yeah there's some great pictures you doing that stuff on your instagram by the way okay go on yeah so I tore my hamstring and I was doing the traditional route to get it cleaned up so doing like the traditional physical therapy I was at university of British Columbia which is a tier one research university. So the equivalent of being at a Harvard med school in Canada is running my PT and my rehab. And I'm a 20-year-old kid, so what they say goes. And I was a pretty good student. And I was going to PT religiously and doing what they said religiously.

And I felt like I just wasn't moving the needle. And as the school year was coming to a close, I was going to go back to my hometown for the summer. And all of a sudden, I don't have access to this sports med department. So I figure I'm going to start looking at some approaches that are actually going to carry me through the summer. So I started looking at massage and acupuncture and some other things and nothing had really moved the needle. I found a chiropractor in my hometown. And at this point in my life, I knew absolutely nothing about chiropractors. I didn't know what they did. I didn't know that they were alternative medicine. All I knew is they were somewhat healthcare related.

I started seeing the chiropractor, started getting some adjustments, self-care related, started seeing the chiropractor, started getting some adjustments, noticed things felt different for the first time in a really long time. And that kind of piqued my interest. I'd been going to like, maybe it was like the third or fourth visit, seeing this chiropractor. He asked me what I was planning on doing professionally. And I didn't really know at the time. I was in exercise physiology, biomechanics, because I was really interested in the body, but I didn't really know where that was going to lead me. So I mentioned that he brings in brochures from some different chiropractic schools. I started looking into it and it seemed like it would be something that could be a good fit for me. So that led me to Texas. Yeah. And so you take this traditional route.

Was there anything unique about your chiropractic school or it was just your standard chiropractic school? So in the chiropractic profession, there are three kind of pillars that every school has as its foundation that we call the science, art, and philosophy of chiropractic. And different schools kind of weigh a little bit more heavily on some of those variables. So there are some schools that are very philosophy heavy, where it would be kind of promoting chiropractic the way it was promoted back in 1895, when the profession started, of every single problem in the world or every single problem in the human body is a byproduct of your bones being out of place. Some are very science based where it is basically the chiropractor is a small part of the healthcare team that focuses on back pain and neck pain. Some are very art-based where they spend a lot of time

focused on the skills of your hands and the ability to deliver manual therapy. And then the other school are all the other schools are some kind of combination of those three things. And the school that I went to was one that was pretty balanced in those three things. I feel like I got a pretty good education regarding orthopedics in terms of like my hands being pretty good. And I feel like it was a good balance between like very, very old school out of date chiropractic and very, very new school advances in our understanding of the human body and how it works. new school advances in our understanding of the human body and how it works. Is there an evolution to how chiropractors kind of work? Like when you start,

you think it's all science or philosophy, and then you think it's all... Is there a standard career trajectory? And then by the time you've been doing it for 30 years, you're like, okay, this is an art. Is there some sort of... can't speak for other people i can definitely speak for myself so i've definitely had a pretty big arc in my professional career in that i started um much stronger on the art and well i had a very strong science background and so when i went to chiropractic school, I really wasn't that focused on that because I knew I'd built that up to a certain level. I was trying to get the other stuff to catch up. So I spent a lot more time in my chiropractic program, really focusing on more on the philosophy and the art. So then I graduated and I started seeing patients and I realized that healthcare is not medical science.

Healthcare is interpersonal relationships. And as I've gone deeper into my professional career, I've really noticed that it isn't about how much I know. It isn't even about the results that I am able to get. It's about my ability to communicate effectively with the patient in front of me. What the heck's going on? I have been over the years to three different, I don't even want to call them chiropractors because I really don't know. You go to someone's office and they do adjustments on you. Chances are I was a chiropractor.

If that's all they did, chances are that's a chiropractor and all and that's all they did chances are that's a chiropractor okay yeah and they did some like they put some cups on my one guy put some cups on my back one guy put his thumb in my mouth and was like trying to like told me that my issue was because of my cranium was trying to like move my something in the roof of my mouth i don't know but um all three times i left, they're worse than when I went in. But I have this whole cadre, like all my friends like swear by it. Like there's a dude in town that everyone goes to here in Santa Cruz that I went to and like he wrecked me. He was so – I went in there and I was hurt and I came out like injured, like beat up. I think a big problem is because –

These were all guys who did manual shit, by the way, like cranking on me and shit. And there is a time and place for everything. And you really need to use the right tool for the job. And if the problem is there's things in your spine that are really stiff and really locked up, then getting them to move is going to feel a lot better. locked up, then getting them to move is going to feel a lot better. Yeah. If the problem is things are moving too much and they're unstable, me doing that is going to make it feel worse. So we have a tendency to think, Hey, this thing worked for me. I had pain in this location. You have pain in the same location. So this same thing will work for you and not necessarily. Right. So something that I like to explain to my patients is if let's say these muscles here are too tight, that might pull me out of place. And if I've been stuck here for

a long enough time, these two bones might kind of cobweb together and then a adjustment might break them apart so things are in the right they're moving better okay right so if the problem is the cobwebs are keeping things locked together an adjustment is going to do a good job okay but let's say the problem is this muscle is really really weak okay and that is resulting in me being over here. Now I do the adjustment. Well, now I've taken an unstable thing and made it more unstable. Right, right, right, right. So we could have things are too tight, creates the problem. We could have things that are too flexible, creates the problem.

We could have things are overtrained. So let's say I have a workout where, or a workout philosophy where these muscles get trained a lot and these ones don't, that could create an imbalance. Let's say for just whatever reason, I don't like training these muscles, that could create an imbalance. And all of those things are going to require different solutions. And if you happen to have the problem where it's muscle is too tight causing the problem, massage is going to do a really good job in fixing things if the problem is muscle is too weak causing the problem manual therapy is

not going to do shit the problem is is weakness so you can only fix that with strength so there's a screening process that you're put through that's supposed to identify the problem before the for the cures applied. Absolutely. I mean, it seems radical to say that because it's so commonly not done, but I don't understand how we can be quality healthcare providers without knowing what's going on. Oh, your neck hurts? Let's just move it.

Okay. Why does your neck hurt? What's going on that your neck hurts? Is it a muscle issue? Is it a joint issue? Is on that your neck hurts is it a muscle issue is it a joint issue is it a weakness issue is it flexibility issue is it a strength issue is it a overtraining issue is it an under recovery issue is it a global inflammation like we don't know just by oh this is tight let me adjust do you send most of your clients home with um um uh you you you might go to the doctor and you're in pain and they give you a prescription and you go fill up the front you go fill it at the pharmacy

so they've sent you home with something do you send most of your clients home with something like hey stand on one foot and hold your arms out while you take deep breaths? I send my patient, 100% of my patients home with something to work on. 100%. Yeah. So my entire model, my entire philosophy is based on the hours that you aren't in my office. So I don't care about how good you move for the 30 minutes a week that you might be in here. I care about how you move the 167 and a half hours that you aren't in this office. And the only way to get you to move better without me holding your hand is to teach you how to move differently without you me holding your hand. Yeah.

I'm going to swerve swerve around it here a little bit um when if michael jordan's your dad and and and you're raised around him and you as you're laying in your crib you see him walk across the room and you see how he moves how he goes upstairs he takes you to the gym you see him play some basketball you're sitting there in your cart are you are you learning something in the same way that maybe my dad had back pain his whole life 100 you okay okay okay you see what i'm going with this motor learning is a learned behavior yeah like so not i'm not talking about genetics that michael jordan might have these kind of genetics that allowed for this i'm talking about like so i i don't want to use these words because they're crossfit words but like a motor recruitment pattern or um an angle that your body hangs explain that it is 100 a motor learning pattern so you're what does that mean so it is we learn to move

based on what we see okay to a certain extent right right i see my kids do that like especially two of them they can just watch something on youtube or they can just we go to tennis practice and if the coach demos it they got it i'm like holy shit and part of that the part of the reason kids can do this so much better than us is because they got better GPS signals coming in. Their joints all work better than ours. So they're able to learn the skill better. Now, this isn't to say that vision is exclusively how we learn to move because blind people learn to walk too and they learn more skills as well. But vision is a tool that we use to learn move and it's a very effective tool to learn to move yeah so if i'm growing up and it's a single father situation and he is the main person that i see

moving and he's got back pain and he's had a back pain movement strategy that he is showing me for my developmental years. I'm more likely to acquire that as my foundational movement strategy. Yeah, I think I'm into it doesn't mean I'm stuck there forever. It's just that's probably where the foundation is going to be laid. People have said to me who've seen my father walk and me walk they're like you guys walk the same and now i see my son my oldest son and uh and i'm like oh shit he's he's holding himself like he has back pain fuck i gave that shit to him i mean he doesn't have back pain yet well here's but i can see the way he kind of moves like well not when he's playing sports but but when he's just like

walking across the room he's got like a little bit of robocop to him like i'm assuming dad's got some robocop to him yeah totally i'm a stiff if i'm not sweating i'm a i'm a basically just a moving rock yeah that's interesting yeah it's um it's there you go son merry christmas here's a whole life in back pain well yeah it's like when people say like bunions are genetic. It's like, okay, there are some genetic markers that make your connective tissue kind of respond in different ways from the average person. But a lot of the times, you just learn some way of moving that was mirrored to you. yeah and you see these kids okay i'll see these kids who like run on their toes at a really young age like like like a three-year-old who can outrun all the other three-year-olds he's just basically like doing that pose method just leans forward and flies and that all the other and then and then i see the parents and the dad's light on his toes or the mom's light on his toes and i'm like oh shit i see yeah it's yeah that's kids are so good at learning things like this that it's it's

just unconscious it's it's just unconscious. It's automatic. They don't need to try. It just happens. I should have given my kids to Michael Jordan. I wonder if he would have taken them. I saw that I heard the story one time on NPR. I don't know what happened to the lady that was like, this is when I used to listen to NPR maybe five years ago.

And it was a young girl and she was like 13 years old and she was the greatest like rock climber like prodigy ever and i use the word prodigy she's not a prodigy she worked her ass off yeah but at a very young age her parents had gave her a monkey and and that's genius yeah and she followed the monkey fucking everywhere but one of the things that also happened is her wingspan was enormous. And I was tripping on that. I understand the movement thing. But the fact that maybe your body would even adapt and give you like an extra inch or two on your wingspan because your homeboy is a monkey is nuts to me.

Well, here's the way that that can actually happen. So there's going to be a... I'm so glad you didn't say, hey, this is crazy. I'm getting off this platform. No, no, no, no. There's a reason that this can make sense. There's a huge reason that this can make sense. So our bones are...

The growth of our bones is not a passive process. It's a dynamic process. And it's going to be based on the forces that I'm putting into them. it's a dynamic process and it's going to be based on the forces that I'm putting into them. So if I am just living my life and I develop, that's not my mic here. So if I develop like the normal American child these days, who's not allowed to go outside and not allowed to play in the monkey bars

and stuff like that, I'm never actually getting any type of distractive force on my arms so these cells that make up the bones of my arms are never getting an expansive force yeah so they're never being told to ever grow this way yeah now if let's say i'm following this monkey around and every day I'm climbing and hanging stuff. Yeah. They said she just climbed all day. She just followed the monkey everywhere. That's they said it was just nuts. Yeah. So if we look at a professional tennis player, the bone mineral density of their dominant arm versus their non-dominant arm is way, way, way higher. The way the bones fuse in their dominant hand and dominant arm is different from how it fuses in their non-dominant arm so we already know that the movements we do

when we're young change bone remodeling do you have kids i do not um if you if you had kids, do you have a – like my philosophy was to get them to do something to seduce a mate and then protect a mate. So like dancing, music, and then jiu-jitsu, right? That way like you could seduce someone and they like you, and then you can protect your tribe. Um, so, so, and, so, and, um, do you have a, a thought on, um, and basically you want to make your kids capable. You want to make them capable of being extremely kind, extremely loving, extremely fierce, good with numbers, good with the language. Do you have a movement philosophy? Have you thought about a movement philosophy for kids? What you would do if you had a kid?

Do you ever play with that idea? Absolutely. Um, it would be as much variability as possible. Put them in everything. Build a jungle gym in the backyard. Have them take gymnastics. Have them do jujitsu. Have them play ball sports. Have them on ice.

Just have them do absolutely everything. There is a critical window when we're young when all of our joints are doing what they're supposed to that they're more able to learn if you think of it like languages people who learn languages like before the age of 10 they learn it without like a native accent uh people who learn languages like after the age of 20 you start to you usually hear that like underlying accent of whatever language was their first language. Yeah. Um, you, you, you have your own cadence from being from the North. I do. Yeah. So I have a little bit of a hybrid accent. Yeah. Yours is definitely not as

like, um, pronounced as like other Canadians I've interviewed. Well, I mean, part of that is I've been in the U.S. for almost 15 years now. And to go with that, it was. Very far into the south of the U.S. Do your parents have an accent? Oh, yeah. Super strong Caribbean accent. OK. And I bet you that was influential, too, because my dad has a strong Armenian accent. Well, something that me and my sister did is we kind of made fun of my mom's accent and whenever she would say something we'd be like no mom it's pronounced this way so we like over exaggerated the correct pronunciation for things and that definitely still manifests itself today so like when me and my sister are

together and people see us talking they're're like, you guys are like ridiculous. Like you guys sound exactly the same. And it's because we did this thing. Can you hear your mom's accent? Well, I used to not be able to. So growing up, I wasn't able to. But now if I talk to her on the phone because I don't hear her voice as often, I can 100 percent hear it. Yeah, because I can't.

Or if I hear in a voicemail, I can 100 percent hear it. But yeah. Oh, yes. But I never could growing up. I can't hear my dad's. But if I hear another Armenian man speak, I'll be like, oh, that guy has a strong accent. And then one of my friends like, hey, he sounds just like your dad. I'm like, what?

He does. Yeah, that's interesting that you say that because that's something that i've definitely experienced i didn't know it was a common thing but makes sense so so you go to chiropractic school you get these models basically they teach you i guess this foundation of chiropractory is that tensegrity model in that schooling it It wasn't in mine. So that's something I learned much later in my professional career. Okay. Chiropractic school taught to the bones are the structure and alignment, excuse me, alignment is a really important model. and alignment, excuse me, alignment is a really important model.

And are you glad that you were taught, that you learned it in this order, even though maybe you don't subscribe to it? I think, yes. So I think, so I understand the common model very, very well because I was part of it. And I also understand that this is the model that most people know. So if I only learned tensegrity, I wouldn't really understand why everyone has this totally alternate model of the human body that doesn't seem to make any sense to me. Did it make sense when they taught it to you? It did at the time, for sure. I look at it like architecture. Like we all understand how buildings work.

We all understand that there are support beams within buildings. Right. And it makes a lot of sense. The bones could be like the support beams for the human body. That makes sense. Until you start to dig deeper.

That doesn't make sense anymore. Yeah, that happened to me yesterday when I was Googling around trying to figure out – I'm Armenian. Both my parents are Armenian. My dad spends six months a year in Armenia. And Armenia has been fighting a war with its neighbor, Azerbaijan, forever. And it's funny when you learn more. The Ukraine had been celebrating the death of Armenians and the success of Azerbaijan in attacking Armenia. And so it's just interesting to see, like on one hand, you know, you obviously don't want anyone

going to war. But when you hear another perspective of my homeland and my relatives of being, Ukraine's been selling weapons to azerbaijan for the last two years and now they're getting fucked by the russians but the russians have been protecting armenia from the um turkey and azerbaijan it's like the shit gets complicated i remember seeing something about isn't it great how i connected that to the tensegrity model to the oh and i and i know what that other model is called you called it the newtonian biomechanics model i learned that last night on your instagram okay go ahead yeah so yeah so um it's when you understand how many variables are at play things get a lot more complicated than we'd like them to be yes and that is the human body that is political systems that is a lot of

stuff yes because of course i i want to be like hey don't like let these people leave these people alone don't don't kill people like that it just feels yeah it's just horrible it's just horrible to think that there's a lady walking to work to work hard buy groceries and put them to her kids regardless of who she is and now she she can't because someone's bombing her and she's trying to raise her kids can i agree more um so you so then you learn this tensegrity model um what is that group of people like this chiropractic group so i learned so i never heard that it was alternative medicine until you just said it but it is this this – I know with the whole vaccine coming out that I'm hearing more. That kind of gave me some insight into chiropractors that as a whole, they're not – they're believers in natural immunity.

So, yeah. So the foundations of the chiropractic profession. So if we go back to the 18 – like late 1800s. So the absolute like founder of chiropractic he was a magnetic healer okay and what was his name dd palmer okay okay so he's a magnetic healer all right and he had a janitor who woke up one morning and he like was like deafening in one of his ears and the he comes to the magnetic healer magnetic healer is like doing his thing and it like feels something in his neck and it's like something feels weird here and he moves some stuff and here oh and he's a canadian

he is okay okay yeah so he moves some stuff and boom here and comes back or so the legend goes all right okay so he decides sweet i just found the cure for deafness so it's like and i'm kind of make like i'm trying to make this a little bit more animated than the real story here so yeah please my chiropractic philosophy professors don't get mad at me for this so he's kind of like come one come all i found the cure for deafness so people start coming around he starts doing his thing and he noticed that okay we didn't really fix deafness but all sorts of other things got better so this person their allergies felt a little bit better this person's neck felt a little bit better this person's low back felt a little bit better so then he was like okay i didn't find the cure for effortless i found the cure for everything and the idea which kind of made sense at the time

1800s um is that we know that nerves control pretty much everything we know the nerves leave the spinal cord so his philosophy was if the bones are out of place that can put pressure on nerves that nerve impacts the terminal organ and that will create problems and that was every problem that was his idea yeah and by the way that's kind of how i think by the way like just i don't know why if it was programmed that's the way i think too i just in my mind it's something's pinching something and that's why i hurt yeah i have no proof of that yeah that's that's that in my mind, it's something's pinching something and that's why I hurt. Yeah. I have no proof of that. Yeah. Yeah.

That's, that's, that's an idea. And it's a really easy idea to run with. It's not, not really how it works, but that's an idea. I have a modern day DD Palmer. Yeah. So it's an idea that where that philosophy does make sense, but the way nerves behave when they're actually being pinched is very different to the symptoms that most people have that they call a pinched nerve. So it's not really that.

But anyways, so he really started as a magnetic healer in kind of defiance to the way traditional medicine was being done. Now, in his defense, traditional medicine at the time there was still bloodletting going on um they were using heroin for kids as cough syrup like there was a lot of really fucked up things in traditional medicine in the late 1800s early 1900s so yeah george washington was bled to death right um i'm not exactly sure my american history is not so solid yeah the doctors the doctors saved him just like they're saving people today. Yeah. So the chiropractic profession all like started foundationally as your body doesn't need extra help. It just needs to work properly.

We just need to get rid of any interference that's allowing the body to function properly. And at a foundational level, I believe that. Not that it's a bone out of place that's causing these things, but I think if we give the body the chance to do what it's capable of, to behave properly, to do the things that we know it needs, get proper sleep, get proper sunshine, get proper exercise, get proper nutrition, have good interpersonal relationships, have not stressed, not have stress levels out of control, what needs get proper sleep get proper sunshine get proper exercise get proper nutrition have good interpersonal relationships have not stressed not have stress levels out of control have our breathing and not let us think that there's tigers entering the room if we can do these things the

body has a in my philosophy the body is a pretty good job of taking care of itself. Is there a, is there a theme that's the dominant theme for what's in the way people's way of letting the body do what it needs to do? Like, is there, is there something that you think, okay, 10% of my pay, this would work on 10% of my pay, or is there like a common theme you see in all your patients? Not all, but a majority of them, this person does. If man, if these people just slept a little more, we'd be at the 80 yard line. Like in my world, from my podcast, I'm always preaching. If you just stopped eating added sugar and refined carbohydrates, you'd be at the 95 yard line is in your world. Do you have a. So I think about this a lot and I don't know that there's one thing that is really leading to it um when i

saw matthew walker on rogan's podcast and then read his book i realized that sleep is one of those things that is way more impactful than most people realize um what's his name john rady has a book called spark that talks about the role of exercise and normal brain function that's the one yeah that's the education book right i think i read that years ago yeah yeah amazing book yeah so knowing that just foundational level aerobic exercise or foundational level any type of exercise is what makes the brain do normal brain things is like absolutely critical. So I think if most people just moved their bodies and got enough sleep and ate more to use Michael Pollan's term, uh, ate more food than products, I think we're going the right direction.

Do you, do the vast majority, when I think of you, sorry, I make this assumption that you really deal with movers, though. So yes and no. I understand movers. So I understand their motivation. So I work really well with them. I understand someone who wants to do the right things, who is active, they're already working out, they already are paying attention to their diet, and they're paying attention to their sleep. But they've got this nagging thing that they can't quite figure out. And it's not necessarily a blown disc on MRI. It's not a broken bone,

but they know, yeah, my shoulder's just not in a normal shoulder. It's like, it's okay if I'm just doing pushups, but if I bench heavy, I notice it. Like it doesn't stop me in day-to-day life, but there's something there that I know quite isn't working right. Cause that was me. So I never had any like big major diagnosable problems, but I had a bunch of little things that I just knew weren't right and weren't perfect. And after I graduated, it was like a six, seven year journey of taking like way too many continuing education classes to see was anyone looking for the gap between I'm not in pain, but I'm not a unicorn either. And I feel like I've been able to find some systems that are looking for that. Yeah. As you talk, I keep thinking about what you also said,

and it's a theme that I keep applying to all these areas of nuance that we go to, that if your joints are healthy or if they can communicate well to the brain, things work well. Things work better. Things can be repaired, yeah. And I like the way we talked about that in relationship to kids too because it's a brand new computer. The hard drive is empty, and everything is firing, and the keyboard is clean. It doesn't have crumbs and shit in it and everything's just like working all that i really i really like that analogy because kind of at a at a foundational level it's kind of like that yeah the cpu is getting all the information it needs at the proper speeds and yeah it's just it's just it's just

really flowing if if you were to um if someone wanted to be a chiropractor, if someone wanted to follow in your footsteps, would you recommend that they took the same path you took? I would start. No. Okay. Tell me, tell me. Okay. The, the reason I say that is just because I feel like education has changed so much in the last decade of the last 20 years that there's a lot within our education system that's kind of filler. And I think if we go really far back to when education was just about global learning, there's foundations of like getting an undergrad, like think of like your minor, like what's that for? Like, why do we need to learn about subjects that are totally different from our area of specialization? So you can meet girls. Yeah, that's that. But I think the foundational ideas are so that you can be a semi well-rounded person, but I can do that watching

a YouTube documentary, right? I can do that taking a trip overseas. So I don't think that needs to be a necessary part. That would actually be better, a trip to Africa or India or any – man, go to India, get a whole – Yeah, so I feel like instead of taking a $5,000 per credit class on Indian history, I think you'd get a lot more value out of a $2,000 trip to India. Yeah. Backpack across India for two months. You'd be, yep. Yep. So, um, if we look at something like the Khan Academy on YouTube, you can be, you can learn like almost any skill or any, um, area of study, like really quickly. There's a book I love. It's called Ultra Learning. And it was about this dude who taught himself the MIT computer science curriculum in a year.

Crazy. And so their curriculum is totally online. All the tests are totally online. So he decided, hey, I'm going to give myself a pass in the class if I can get a 50% or more on any of the tests. And he kind of created his schedule and he did it all in a year. And he blogged his journey and talked about it. And there was some purists who were like, we'd never hire you if you don't have the degree.

And then people from like Google and Microsoft would be like, if you can code, you can code. Like, we don't care what your official background is. And so I feel like you can get the knowledge without the formal education. So if I want, if someone was interested in the things that I do and they wanted to kind of follow in my footsteps, my first recommendation would be to just get a foundational understanding of the human body. understanding of the human body so maybe do take a few basic undergrad anatomy courses i would say from there take strength and conditioning certifications like take the cscs take the crossfit level one take usa weightlifting take USA track and field, like take some like high performance, like motor learning coaching courses.

Um, then I would say, start to take some professional, uh, some, um, like professional certifications, like, uh, the functional range systems is, um, a system that I'm a huge fan of. So there are functional. Oh, that's the FRS. Yeah. I had that in my notes to ask you what that stood for. Okay. Okay. Yeah. So functional range. Yep. So take some of their courses. There's a group out of the Prague school that does some awesome stuff with breathing and bracing and core stability. I'd take some of their courses as a group called the Postural Restoration Institute

that has some awesome stuff on some human asymmetries. So I would just say, take courses. And then shadow them. Don't I need that thing hanging in my office so that I can charge people to come in and fix them? And don't I have to get that from a school? Yes and no, depending on what you're doing. And so the majority of what I do isn't hands-on.

It's not. It's teaching people how to move. I do plenty of hands-on because again, I'm a chiropractor. I've got the degree on my wall. I spend a lot of money for it. So I do hands-on things, but I think 95% of my efficacy isn't in the hands-on things that I do. It's in the way I'm able to teach people how to move, which doesn't require a medical Florida Department of Health license. It's so interesting you say that because someone could insult me and then I could be injured and they could say, sorry, and it heals me. But they've set me up to be injured again. But if someone insults me and someone else says, hey, that's your problem, you need to get over it, you need to accept that that's part of life. I'm less likely to get injured again when someone insults me. And that's kind of what you're saying. That's a huge part where I think society has its problems today because people are pointing fingers outwards. But you're giving people the tools to, hey, you need to address this.

This is something you're going to address yourself. These are the movements you're going to do. These are the areas where you're going to breathe into. These are the movements you're going to do. These are the areas where you're going to breathe into. These are some areas like, and I can give you a tweak or a twist here to get you started to maybe bring some awareness to it. I can tell you, Hey, I understand it didn't feel good when that guy called you a name. I understand that those things hurt, but at some point you're going to have to accept that you have a big nose and that there's a million people out there in the world and

they're going to address it. And then you have to, you have to change your perception of what that means to you. And it's, it's, it's it's fascinating yeah so it doesn't it's not very popular though doesn't make you very popular mr mr bernard it may like it does i pay you money to tell you to work on myself but it allows me to sleep at night because like if you go to a crossfit box and you've never been to CrossFit before, I'm hoping I can pay someone to teach me proper technique to do a clean. Yeah. They're not going to do the cleans for me. They can't do the cleans for me. No matter how good they are at cleans, that will never

translate into my body getting stronger and becoming better at cleans. So there's plenty of places in life where we understand that we pay a professional to teach us how to do us better yeah i i trip on that thing too what you said right there that i can't give you i can't say you can't call me and be like hey seven what's up i'm like hey moses and you're like i don't feel good today i'm like oh don't worry moses just chill in bed i'm gonna do 200 burpees today i'm gonna transfer 100 over to you yeah i cannot's up i'm like hey moses and you're like i don't feel good today i'm like oh don't worry moses just chill in bed i'm gonna do 200 burpees today i'm gonna transfer 100 over to you yeah i cannot i cannot i'm totally stealing that i cannot it's i cannot i want to it hasn't i would totally do it i would totally do that for my mom and my dad

bang 100 every day extra ones out i cannot yeah and uh it's it And it's, but I can do the a hundred burpees and I can post it on my show and show that it's 11 o'clock at night. And I can show the world that I came home from a light day's work. And I still took personal accountability and responsibility. And instead of posting a bottle of whiskey, I can post that I did 100 burpees. And hopefully someone will mirror that like we talked about earlier and be like, oh, I'll copy that. I believe everything's contagious. I think we're just mirrors here. I think contagious is a very interesting word. Yeah. When I take a very heavy weight and I bend and twist in a way that you're not supposed to, this isn't to show off. This is to get people get people the idea to think a little bit differently. The people have been paralyzed to move their spine their

entire life. They come across my page and they see something like that. They're like, wait a minute, that should be impossible. Maybe what people told me about my back and being fragile, how I should never lift heavy weights ever for the rest of my life. Maybe that's not true. And maybe that spark gets lit. And maybe they start going down a rabbit hole to maybe they join a CrossFit box. Maybe they start taking some yoga classes. Maybe they start looking at some YouTube videos on tensegrity. on 10 security uh but something kind of shakes them out of the the um what's everyone looking for just kind of the the narrow path that they were going down they realized there's potentially a path less traveled that they can take um when i watched you do the jefferson curl yesterday i i was in my garage i was watching on tv in there and i um stopped and everything i was

doing and i took a and i was warm already because i've been riding the assault bike and i took a bunch of deep breaths and i did really slowed i pretended like i was carrying the bar but i had no weight in my hands and i mimicked your uh movement i should grab pvc i have 10 pvc pipes and i did 10 of those weightless Jefferson curls. And you totally, yeah, you totally, yeah, you totally inspired me. You totally inspired me. I was from the, the school of neutral spine, never bend, never twist. Um, posture is really important. Like this was my training. This was my background. And then I was exposed to some ideas that, Hey, that doesn't make sense. It does make sense that, Hey, you're going to be

the strongest in the middle of that bell curve, but it doesn't make sense to ignore the rest of it. So I started playing around with it. And at the time of my very first Jefferson curl with a PVC pipe deadlift was, Oh, I had already hit a 600 pound deadlift and I was terrified. I was absolutely terrified just to bend my spine and touch my toes with a PVC pipe. Yeah, that's amazing. And then I did it a little bit more and a little bit more and a little bit more. And then I started to add a tiny bit of weight. It's like I put I remember I put like a five pound weight in a PVC pipe.

So it's like right in the middle. And then I did a Jefferson curl from there. And again, it was scary because it's like, I'm feeling the stressors on my back that I'm not supposed to feel, but I also know that the body adapts. I know that connective tissues adapt to stress and strain, given the appropriate strain and given the appropriate recovery. This is a foundational principle of human cells. So I added a little bit more, a little bit more year after year, a little bit more, a little bit more. And I eventually got to the place where I felt confident to really challenge it to like, I've never done a true max test on a Jefferson curl,

but I've gotten pretty close. I've gone to some pretty dark places. The one where you're doing the Zerker carry is pretty crazy. Yeah, that one. So recently I took a strength and conditioning certification. It was throughout functional rate systems, their internal strength model. How do you do that? Let me stop here real quick. I view you guys, the chiropractors as a whole, as close-minded know-it-alls. I know that sounds bad. It's fine.

I get that. I inherited that in my profession and I'm totally cool with that. I'm not offended because I am not chiropractors. I'm one dude who's trying to do some fun things in the weight room and try to get people to feel safe in their bodies. Yeah. So that's what kind of proves to me that I'm wrong in this prejudice because – and I don't even mean it in a bad way. The foodies are like that too. They're closed-minded no-dolls. They're just in my mind. Well, I mean like everybody – Now you're telling me you went to –

There's CrossFitters. There's vegans. There's some people who are assholes. Yes, yes. But you go to these courses. Is that hard for you to turn off your brain and listen to other people when you know so much? You went to a strength and conditioning seminar? Absolutely not.

Because everything I know is because – the reason I'm where I'm at professionally is because I was never secure in any of my ideas. I'm always willing for some idea to be replaced by something better. And I don't know what that better thing is going to be until it's in front of me. So there's been certifications that I've gone to where it is 90% of it is like, yeah, I don't support any of this. But there might be 10% of it. It's like, I could use that. There's some that that so like the first um

prog school or rehab course that ever took the first functional range condition course that ever took they just broke my entire foundation they were i have done everything wrong i need to totally reevaluate how i've been doing every single thing professionally um yeah no that's intense the thing is fortunately for me i don't have an ego attached to how i've been doing things so i'm happy to like burn the house down and rebuild a better one um and i think that can be hard for people yeah especially when you have clients who who like people want to rely on you, right? Like I'm guilty of this. Those three chiropractors I went to, I just went there like a damsel in distress, right?

Like, oh, woe is me, and I throw myself on their table, and I'm like, fuck, help me. I'm hurt. Do what you want. It's like that. I mean, you know, I think people go to lawyers like that, too, or people go to police like that or like they they just like like like let's say you and your wife are going to get a divorce. People just want to go to a lawyer and just like throw themselves like just be like, can you fix the problem? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, that is something that we see in a lot of fields is just a lack of personal accountability for a lot of things. is just a lack of personal accountability for a lot of things.

Like we don't want to take accountability for our personal interpersonal relationships in the divorce case. We don't want to take accountability for our body control and awareness in the just throw ourselves on the chiropractic table case. Like there's, we like to like, if we look at nutrition and there's a lot of people who they don't want to learn how to cook for themselves so they do like the meal delivery services even though they have plenty enough time to be able to do their own things like yeah we like to outsource i just started eating raw meat so that i don't have to cook there you go have you fucked around with any raw meat i haven't really yet um it's it's it's all the craze it's

all the craze it is i am not totally dismissive of it so again i go back to what has our species been doing forever um now fire has been around for a real long time. But there are still, but not forever. Right. And there are still tribes where they're eating pretty close to raw stuff, and we're doing okay. We do it with fish. I had Zoe Harcombe on yesterday, and actually, I had remembered years ago, or at some point, Dave Castro had said this exact same thing to me. They're like, you cannot blame an ancient food for modern illness.

And I was like, yeah, there's so much hatred towards meat out there, but like, I mean, it's really, it's good. Well,

I mean, shit, you're saying the same thing to me. You're, I mean, you're saying, Hey, you got to look at what people have done in the past.

Yeah. It's funny how smart people kind of think alike. They have these paradigms of like, okay, let's start here. Let's dig in. What has man been doing for a million years that was working? Yeah. And that's just kind of a foundational thing, filter that I look through when I make decisions, when I make decisions and recommendations. Um, Nicholas Nassim Taleb, he is the dude who did, uh, he wrote anti-fragile black Swan, a bunch of other

interesting books on decision-making, uh, his nutritional philosophy, which I absolutely love is if you've been around a thousand years, get a pass that's his rule oh like even if someone says something bad like if someone's talking shit about milk but you see people have been drinking it for 12 000 years you're good to go yep that's that's his rule it's like a thousand years is an okay enough track record yeah so he doesn't do so that eliminates a lot of processed foods doesn't eliminate alcohol but eliminates super sugary cocktails um and it i i can't disagree with that overall that idea yeah i i read this book um uh called ra Ravenous. It's about Otto Warburg. He is a scientist in the 30s who was living in Nazi Germany. And he's a homosexual Jew. Fucking tough combo, right? Hitler didn't like those people, Jews or homosexuals.

combo right hitler didn't like those people jews or homosexuals yeah anyway um but his whole thing was cancer well not his whole thing was cancer research he's the godfather he won two nobel prizes hitler would only let him get one of them but one of the things he he was the godfather of photosynthesis which is just fascinating to me plants are just fascinating and then the other thing is is he discovered that cancer cells consume 10 times the amount of sugar as regular cells and to this day like 78 of all cancers are when uh the process in finding them is to scan the body and when you see the body uh however they do that when you see the area where cells are consuming 10 times the glucose as other places the dot you look there and lo and behold there's cancer and and i bring that up in with

what you're saying there was there wasn't. There wasn't people eating tons of sugar even 300 years ago, let alone a thousand years ago. And I mean, the amounts that we have now, it's like not even 75 years ago. Right, right. It's nuts. There was there was this before. This is long ago. I think the movie was called Unforgiven or something. And it was a Clint Eastwood movie.

And basically right before the guys went into battle battle they stopped at a store and they bought some candy a piece of chocolate and i'll never forget that in the movie and right before they they're sitting there and they're about to attack the guys and they go okay and they each take a bite of chocolate like it was like they were having sex with their wives and it was like the last time before they go off to war. And that was chocolate back then. That was like and now and now like every Tom, Dick and Harry can go have a Snickers bar and just close their eyes. And. Yeah, it's it's we have a lot of great shit. We just got a lot of responsibility.

We just got a lot of responsibility. And that is the thing is as we get more or as we have access to more amazing stuff, it becomes harder and harder and harder to filter that stuff out. If we think about like the Snickers bar, the best biochemists from the best schools are hired by all of these companies to make that Snickers bar fucking delicious. Like to make the perfect ratio of salt and the perfect ratio of fat and the perfect ratio of sugar to make it so that like it's amazing when it hits your mouth, but not so amazing that you like cherish the satisfaction for a long period of time, not so gross that you spit it out. It's like it's designed to make you consume as much of it as possible. And they've done so many studies to figure out what exactly kind of that bliss point is for all of these things. This is what we're competing with. So every time you grab the Snickers or you grab the M&Ms or you grab the donut, your taste buds are fighting against the best nutritional scientists trying to hack that system. And they

are better at it than we are. Yeah. And so in some ways, the only way to win that game is to not play it. It's funny, as you're saying this, I'm just as a 49 year old man i don't even see 90 of the stuff in the store anymore i remember as a kid like i would walk by the gum rack and i'd be like holy shit i can't wait till someday i have a job i'm gonna get a paper out and i'm gonna buy all the bubble gum i want now i don't even see that stuff now like i walk by like macadamia nuts and i have to be like don't buy that don't buy that don't buy it but i don't even see the gummy bears or the like like you know the 20 pound macadamia notes right like like you can do it yeah yeah and it's just like i know i'm not gonna eat i know i'm not gonna eat like five i'm gonna go sit in my car crack the bag open and just start eating them

um but but it's just amazing how you can't overcome all that as i talk to him i've overcome all that i would never buy a snicker bar i would never buy a soda pop i have no desire i just i walk by all that shit i don't even see the i don't even know what the grocery store is full of yeah it's nuts i still have a soft spot sometime for some shitty beef jerky there's the nutrition like those long say that again the nutrition thing is like i like sugar um i acknowledge that it is not awesome for my physiology um i know that i'm the person where it's like if i buy the bag of candy i just will eat the entire thing non-stop so i just need to force put myself in environments where that's much less likely to happen. So if I do like some good stuff with meal prep and my food's ready to go and

I'm feeling satisfied and nourished, I'm not going to have those urges for the simple sugar. Do you have a, do you have a, do you have a sugar? Do you have a go-to sugar item i wouldn't say there's one but just like the simple sugar like pure gluco candies the like gummy bears and like stuff like that the stuff that the issue with my physiology is i perform really really well on that stuff oh interesting wow i process carbs i perform at a physical level very well um i blood industry but it's for my anaerobic performance place in my

a4 is more important than my anaerobic performance i make different nutritional decisions yeah um you're breaking up kind of bad uh-oh that'll lose you oh um let's look up my end. One second here. Let me see if the windows will help. We doing okay? Yeah, now we're better. I used to stay in hotels a lot. Like I used to travel for work a lot, and I used to drink alcohol.

And that was when all the bad shit would happen. So you come back to your hotel room, you've been drinking at at dinner and you just clear out the gummy bears and all that shit but what is interesting is like i really hardly drink anymore if at all and uh it's so much easier not to make bad decisions um something for me was i started wearing the whoop strap when was it in like 2017 and i'd already i had known at a intellectual level the impact that alcohol had on my physiology but i didn't really embrace it until i like saw the data until i saw that's like okay i have two glasses of wine before bed and my resting heart rate's 15 beats per minute higher than it would have been if I didn't. Oh, interesting. Wow. Like it was off.

It was insane. Like how big a swing it was. So it's like, I've seen the studies about how it's like, yeah, you, you really don't recover if you've had like a few glasses of like a few drinks like after a workout but to actually see it's like oh like so normally what would happen with my heart rate is i go to bed and my heart rate's at a certain level and over the course of the night it gets lower and lower and lower okay yeah if i had a few drinks before bed i would have my heart rate and it would start to go up for like three or four hours and then it would start to come down. So it's like the first four hours of my sleep was just trying to like process out and like process out the alcohol that was in my system.

It was actually like ramping up my metabolism. So it was really like I was only getting four hours of sleep, even though I was in bed. There's only four hours of true recovery, even though I was in bed for eight or nine hours. So seeing that data has been dramatic on my behavior. Zoe Harcomb, who we had on yesterday, was saying that when you drink alcohol, it can only be processed in one place in the body, in the liver. And when the liver has the liver and when the liver has to deal in the liver of use it as a toxin and when the liver is dealing with that all its other fucking duties go out the door and there were and i forget i wish i could remember what duties they

were but there were some critical duties like in regards to weight loss and your metabolism and shit like that that it's like oh shit that's fucked up that's fucked up it's like taking your it's like taking a fireman during a big fire who should be putting out the fire and having them go change a diaper on a baby it's like nah nah nah yeah other people can do that yeah yeah you gotta get up it's fucked up alcohol is fucked up yeah and for me it was all the knowledge like all the foundational knowledge in the world wasn't enough but to see it in my own body it's like that was enough to make the difference and i think with like we can say that hey we know exercise is good for you but only once someone's been working out for a month or two and they're noticing that their body feels better the way they can live in day-to-day life works better that's like oh i get this exercise

thing now yeah um guys please uh google uh dr moses bernard if you want to get uh deeper into any of these topics his instagram is no joke it. It is a wealth, a wealth of knowledge. There are some fantastic warmups. I call them warmup. He calls them cars, which is the acronym for controlled articular rotations. Yeah, it is some good stuff. And he has courses on his website and he has a beautiful website. All you have to do is Google Moses Bernard, or if you want to get fancy, you can put the word doctor in front of it and you will see him. Thanks man for coming on. What a tremendous wealth of knowledge you are. And I, and I appreciate you giving us a hour and 40 minutes of your time

today. I really appreciate you having me. Any people who are watching, if you are interested in any of my courses, use the promo code seven and I'll give you a couple extra bucks off if you want that you are interested in any of my courses, use the promo code seven, and I'll give you a couple extra bucks off if you want that. Uh, so we half off my spine courses, half off my cars, mobility courses. Um, I really appreciate you having me. I really appreciate you giving me, giving me the opportunity to just spit what's in my brain and hope that some people find it valuable. Yeah. Awesome. This was fun.