The Sevan Podcast - #361 - Dr. Trevor Kashey

Episode Date: April 6, 2022

Dr. Trevor Kashey - Scientist & Strongman ------------------------- Partners: https://www.paperstcoffee.com/ - THE COFFEE I DRINK! https://www.barbelljobs.com/ - WORLD'S #1 JOB BOARD FOR THE CROSSFIT COMMUNITY https://thesevanpodcast.com/ - OUR WEBSITE https://sogosnacks.com/ - SAVE15 coupon code - the snacks my kids eat - tell them Sevan sent you! https://www.hybridathletics.com/produ... - THE BARBELL BRUSH Support the show Partners: https://cahormones.com/ - CODE "SEVAN" FOR FREE CONSULTATION https://www.paperstcoffee.com/ - THE COFFEE I DRINK! https://asrx.com/collections/the-real... - OUR TSHIRTS ... Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Bam, we're live. I'm at home. Nice. Dr. Trevor Cashy. Oh, maybe I will change your... What if I change your name to your Instagram account so people can see it and then jump on? That sounds like a genius idea. And I agree.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Absolutely. We're off to a good, we're off to a good start. Anything I say that you want to say sounds like a genius idea. Yes. I think I have this at. What's up with the green screen handle at Dr. Kashi, I think. Uh, I will check.

Yeah. My fabulous iPhone device here let's see at dr trevor oh oh yeah yeah just dr cashy okay all right i found the button collaborative effort oh thank you thank you thank you Oh, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Good morning, everybody. Wow, you guys are piling in fast. You guys excited for this one?

We're going to get straight to business. Do you think that if Will Smith had had a different breakfast, he would have knocked Chris Rock out? How does one grown man slap another grown man? He's 50 pounds heavier than and not knock him out i don't understand you hang with fighters in in in azerbaijan the warring country of my i think he spent too much time pretending to smack people right right damn he did a good job then he got to get then he gets an a right relativity right man man oh man boys will be boys right indubitably

did you ever see the um do you know he has a biography out uh will smith or autobiography well leave it oh actually yes i think i saw it pop up on audible perhaps yeah he has an autobiography out but and someone played a clip from it the other day and basically when he was nine years old he saw his dad beat his mom till blood was pouring out of her and he always and he said his whole life um he he resents the fact that he never he he looks he views himself as a coward because he never stood up for his mom and i was like wow that's some heavy shit i mean and he wrote that obviously before that happened so i I always was wondering like, oh, I wonder if that was like, he's like, well, shit, I got to do something.

Perhaps. Perhaps. It fills in some blanks. Right, right. Yeah, totally. I like both the guys. I mean, I don't know them, but just their body of work. Will Smith's one of those guys, if it's a shitty movie,

I'll still go see it because I like him. I know very little about the encounter i did see some of like the headlines popping up here and there and and uh i i found some of the language rather cringy and got stuck on that rather than the story itself the the language between them or the language in the article no the language in like outlets yes platforms i found it rather cringy i'll just say cringy um you're a word guy uh yes i i consider myself uh having a semantic orientation of sorts yes you value words i do very much yeah very much yeah me too me too very very very very what else very very very very very much because i i think words are uh are um sorcery but and i in the most childish sense but um i think

people are manipulated confused distracted um got to do things by their misunderstanding of words. I don't think people realize the power of words. They create our reality. You might know this Taoist saying, naming is the origin of all particular things. And I don't think people realize that that's actually true. I would more or less agree. I also agree to the sorcery comment because we tend to chalk things up to magic if we have a problem explaining the mechanism behind it. Right. We have really a limited understanding, some, albeit a limited understanding of how language ends up affecting behavior. And to that end, it makes it look very mystical or incantatory, enchanting, I suppose, sorcery, that sort of stuff. And a lot of the things that happen kind of happen on accident instead of on purpose. And the post-facto analysis just makes it look like

it happened on purpose. Right, right. When I was a kid, I remember these Bugs Bunny cartoons where there would be like the old ones where there would be a book, you know, and the guy would read from it and he would turn, Bugs Bunny would turn the guy into like a mouse be a book, you know, and the guy would read from it and he would turn, Bugs Bunny would turn the guy into like a mouse, right? I'm like, oh, how silly. Like I've actually watched it happen in the last two years. People get turned into sheep. Correct. Correct. Just right before my eyes. I was like, wow. Yes. Yes. I take a few interesting or possibly

counterintuitive perspectives on things like that. Somebody might say that the person, like the media manipulates people's behavior, right? A rather common sort of conclusion. And I take the equal opposite perspective that the media only does things that people already respond to. And so the people that consume the media actually direct the media content rather than the other way around oh wow and that's that that kind of thinking it has continuity with i heard you on another podcast and you guys were talking about that in terms of um diet like you can ask someone to write something down what they eat every single day. And in like, I think the example was the person might write down that they eat 1200 calories a day, but they

weigh 340 pounds. And you're like, Hmm, that doesn't make sense. But then, you know, you see them two weeks later and they've kind of lived up to that. They've lost 20 pounds because now they're living up to their, what they told you that they were. Absolutely. It, it, you can, you can kind of reduce it down to like a so-called hawthorne effect right we're like if if you if you or anyone else uh operates as if you get watched that your behavior ends up changing as a function of that watching and a lot of people kind of discount that your behavior can change even if you watch yourself i'm gonna have to ask you about that one second hawthorne effect the hawthorne effect is a And a lot of people kind of discount that your behavior can change even if you watch yourself.

I'm going to have to ask you about that one second. Hawthorne effect. The Hawthorne effect is a type of reactivity in which individuals modify an aspect of their behavior in response to the awareness of being observed. Wow, just like Dr. Kashi said. In the L1s, when Greg Glassman used to teach this course called the CrossFit level one, he used to say that basically, I mean, it was pretty obvious, but he'd say, put someone on a rower and check their time. And then when you walk up behind him and check their time, all the numbers start going up, you know, you stand over the,

you stand over their monitor and their shit starts to get real good. For sure. Especially, especially if, you know, the boss man comes walking by and you have one, two, one, the other, or both. You either have an appreciation of this person's attention, affection, and approval. You care that this person has a positive regard for you, or you have fear of this person rejecting or punishing you. And both of them end up having the sort of result of increased work output increased work output and uh those have subtle subtle yet fundamental differences and where that i'll just call it motivation comes from which i find fascinating yeah i'm always perplexed by the people who don't give a fuck about that

who like almost sabotage themselves who don't respect the fact that the boss is there you know what i mean like the boss walks into the the lunchroom and they double down they sit down throw and throw their legs up i'm like that you can also take the approach that people just do what they get taught to do and if the boss accepts that sort of thing or only intermittently rewards or intermittently punishes that as a side effect, it actually sort of facilitates that sort of lackadaisical behavior under surveillance. Yeah. Yeah. So like kids do what they get taught to do. Employees do what they get taught to do. You do what you get, et cetera, et cetera. Right. So that sort of behavior, although it easy to blame the lazy

employees, so to speak, it really just like the media commentary before we do what we get taught to do and if it gets accepted then sometimes that generalizes to other environments that you know that behavior kind of conflicts but if it if it happens as an ongoing thing well it takes two to tango my brother yes yeah um dr tre Trevor Cashy has a website and a business and a project and a experiment running on a website called Trevor Cashy Nutrition. You want to see this website. And the part you want to to scroll down to is let me see if I can share this page. The part you want to, the part you want to scroll.

Well, the part I think everyone, my listeners want to scroll down to is they, they want to click over here to the kickstart program. And you want to scroll all what it's all good. Read in a quick read. You want to go through these. This is really neat these this is really neat

this is really neat this reminds me of um what does it remind me of what what do you do what how would you describe your program in like a couple sentences in the fact that like i guess i don't care if you do it in 10,000 sentences, but, um, you're, you're teaching people how to sort of reprogram themselves, um, so that they don't put shit in their mouth that fucks their machine up. So I will answer your first question with a few sentences and then let that expand as, as you, as you allow to your, your heart's content. Good. Thank you.

I can sum this up in a single sentence. I get chills every time I say it, that having the life you want comes as a side effect of becoming the sort of person it takes to get it. One more time, please. Having the life you want comes as a side effect of becoming the person it takes to get it. Man, this is a great theme. So in that vein, people want lots of stuff. They want money. They want a better job. They want the body. They want, they want, they want all these things and end up and have some operational understanding of the sort of things to do, right? People know to eat less,

people know to eat vegetables, people know to save, they know to save their money, they know to sleep more, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And yet we have obstacles that sort of lower the probability of performing these rather benign behaviors to get that sort of result. And so it has less to do with knowing how to answer the question of how do I get X and more to do with the gap between the thing I want and actually doing the thing. And so at TCAN, we call that the intention intervention gap. So I- Say that one more time.

You call it the what? The intention intervention gap? the intention intervention gap. So I say that one more time. You call it the what? The intention intervention gap. The intention intervention gap. So is that where the obstacle lies? So good question. I think obstacles can increase the gap or shrink the gap, et cetera. Like the whole thing I consider metaphorical, obviously. But basically, I consider it like this arbitrary visualization of the amount of effort, time, skill, etc. All the confounding variables and known variables it takes to do the thing.

The more things that you have in the way, the greater that gap between the thing you want and actually doing the thing it takes. So sometimes it has to do with a skill deficiency. Like maybe you could just actually like the motor patterns of cooking, for instance, right? A lot of people might actually avoid cooking and go to the drive-thru or the gas station or the whatever. And that might make it difficult to put an intervention into practice because they have an aversion to cooking, for instance. And so if the person, we, you, learned how to cook, that might close the gap between what they want and doing the thing it takes. And so we try to consider as many of those things that increase the gap as, as,

as humanly possible, I suppose, and then make a concerted effort to intervene. Like T can would intervene at the variables that we know that obstruct a person from, from doing the things it takes to get what they want. So instead of really me caring that you get a six pack, I care about all the shit that keeps you from getting it.

And then you end up getting it on your own on accident. Does that follow? I care. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep.

Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Obstacle. A thing that blocks one's way or prevents or hinders the progress that's an obstacle yes why why listen to um uh dr trevor cashew well for starters um just to throw the most superficial

thing we can throw out there at 22 he got his phd in biochemistry so he's a dork so uh and and then on top of that he went to azerbaijan to share this knowledge with fighters he's not a dork um so and the whole life is just sprinkled with that but i just want to give you guys a couple just quick like you know kaboom like oh shit like you're not just listening to some guy who who who fell off the turnip truck and you can go to the website and see that this thing is really uh well thought out and it would be a fun adventure it's um oh i was gonna do the math i screwed that up i screwed that all up we got time man let's see there's uh let me pop open up my calculator here there are um thank you for taking the stress off me there's 12 weeks and that's times seven days and that gives you 80 84 days and there's 1497 dollars divided by 84 days and the program is only 17

dollars and 80 cents a day i normally don't do that, but I just... There's a button on there that says, how much does this cost? You should see the before and after photos. When you put stuff up like that, you're such a genuine guy. And it's such a... serious project not serious like i don't want to take away the happiness and fun from it you can say serious okay i give a shit man okay like i almost ended

crying just saying that yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah okay i love it okay yeah it's a serious it's a serious project when you when you do things like before and after photos do you ever feel like you're like because that that's where i guess the venn diagrams would cross with the um hey take these pills and you'll lose weight like when i was at crossfit inc um and i ran the media department there and i'm so i'm so proud of it of it. I was basically in charge from when the place went to more or less 300 gyms to 15,000 gyms. And I was the only second guy on the media team there. And we expanded massively. But there was a point like in 2017 or 18 where Greg goes, okay, we're going to start using before and after photos.

And I was kind of like shocked. Did you have any – what do you think about before and after photos and i was kind of like shocked did you have any um what do you think about before and after photos like almost like we were too cool to do that at first you know like fuck you our shit our shit like fuck you either get on or don't you know what i mean like our shit works so that that sort of from from a business perspective i'll say that sort of That sort of, from a business perspective, I'll say that sort of pattern of behavior, I agree will support a single man. What pattern of behavior? Sorry, I lost you already. Understood. So I'll just call it the pride of keeping the results to yourself.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well said well said. Okay, so to add on to that. Yes, it was pride. We were prideful bunch. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Until like, I would say even a couple of months ago, nobody really even knew what I looked like because I absolutely refused to let the way I look affect my business.

I refused to let people like, he looks great. He's a really smart dude. Whatever, whatever, whatever, whatever. I'll sign let people like, he looks great. He's a really smart dude, whatever, whatever, whatever, whatever. I'll sign up with that guy. That I felt cringy because of it. And I had this weird dialectical tension that, well, either I end up marketing myself because of the things that I can do and accomplish and, or the results that the people get speak for themselves. And so I ended up going that route, which then created a secondary sort of tension of, well, do I post results of people or do I let them post? And I say, use the term post loosely, and then let word of mouth take

care of itself. And probably close to the first 10 years, I let that happen. I operated in more or less silence, only allowing the word of mouth from the people that I worked with increase my client load. Yeah. Aside from the first major bump that I got because I got syndicated on accident. In either case – And that's the story with Alex? No. This actually happened well before that, probably like 2014, perhaps. Okay.

Sorry. I don't, I don't mean to interrupt. I'll make a note and I'll circle back around. I won't forget. Okay. Go on. I'll just to give you a key word. I got, I, I, I came on to somebody's like a relatively high traffic fitness blog at

the time of like a third choice because the other people bailed. And then somebody like, Hey, I worked with this guy guy you should talk to him and he said okay uh and that's how i found you by the way michael easter the author of the um comfort crisis yeah he's like dude i go what he goes you got to have meet dr trevor cashew you'll love him i'm like all right and then i couldn't find you because you were hidden amongst photos of Tyson Fury. So am I the first person to say that? I think so. Yes. You're a good dude.

Yes. I'm the first of after a thousand, right? You know, I'll take it the i for a very long time i operated almost as like how do i say this he's quirky like you too okay sorry sorry go ahead yeah oh we get along great you know how long do you know him michael easter yeah i can no no not michael easter tyson fury no i know what he looks like and do you know his personality no oh dude you guys should meet he needs you this fucking guy needs you i just realized that this is the greatest heavyweight boxer who ever lived by far he actually knows how to fight i know people want to be like Tyson, Ali. This guy fights. Have you seen this guy?

He's 6'10 or whatever, and he fights like a pugilist. Okay, we're way off track, but I got to set you guys up. I don't know him either, but I'm going to figure it out. He needs you, and his body's all fucked up. His body's all fucked up. He don't care, but he needs you. He cares enough. Yeah, and he's fun. Cool. He cares enough. Yeah, and he's fun.

Cool. He's fun. Yeah, yeah, and he's got some addiction issues. Okay, now I'm leaving way off script. Guys, so there's this big program, and it's called the Dr. Trevi Kashi program, I guess. Trevor Kashi Nutrition, and it's T-K-N. and it's T-K-N. And he has this program with all these people who one-on-one will get you from point A to point Z

or give you the tools to do it. But if you got some weird shit going on, you actually deal with Dr. Kashi. Let's say like you got a big old growth on your back and you don't want to have it surgically removed. He'll work with you to have it removed. Or if you've had acne since you were, I'm making this up, I don't know this for sure, since removed. He'll work with you to have it removed. Or if you've had acne since you were, I don't know,

I'm making this up. I don't know this for sure. Since you were six years old to when you were 42 and no one's ever been able to cure it, Dr. Cashy will help you. That's why I'm thinking like Tyson Fury needs Dr. Cashy.

Cause he, he works with like the special, the special projects group, the four, the two headed snakes. Yes. I, I've,

I've taken a liking to, to people with interesting situations. I I've, I've taken a liking to, to people with interesting situations. And I have, frankly, I've learned more from them than anybody else. And insofar as I do this because I like to learn shit, if it helps other people. Great.

Yes. Yes. Yes. And that, and I, I, I keep myself open and honest in that way because I want to get something out of this too. And in an ideal situation, everybody benefits from me learning.

So instead of me taking the sort of Mother Teresa approach, I care very much that I spend my time learning as much as possible. I take a rather scholarly ilk. I'm learning as much as possible. I take a rather scholarly ilk. And in so far as the – oh, Casey, nice for you to pop in. In so far as like – I lost my train of thought here. Sorry. I'll do that to you the whole show.

I apologize. It's the worst. I'm the worst. I'm the worst. I'm the worst podcaster who ever lived. I already screwed myself up. Where did I move out here? Hey. I bust out my Seinfeld impression. What's the deal with lampshades?

Can we start over? Yeah. What do you want from me, man? How does this change other? So one of the things they teach at the CrossFit Level 1 is that if you do, if you give the body, put the body under stress, it will adapt. And so I realized, okay, so that's what I need to do to my kids. I give them controlled, safe places to stress. So, for example, the example I always use is if my child falls down, I don't run over and pick them up.

I now have a great opportunity for controlled stress. What I do is I turn my back to the child to make sure a bear doesn't come out of the bushes and eat my, that's my job to make sure it's a safe place for the child to deal with the stress. And then it stands up and it gets some muscle growth, right? And some balance and agility and it learns. And so instead of picking my child up 10,000 times, my child learns 10,000 air squats from the bottom. And I know that there's things that they learn in this program that I know this program is deeper than change than giving you a six-pack i know that it then will per pervade seep into all the different places in your life can you give me some examples of that about how other things change with these tools uh i will tell you that we almost in the kickstart program, we almost exclusively focus on those other things.

So and then like true to form the six pack, the improved strength, the increased endurance, the getting ready for the photo shoot, et cetera, happens as a side effect of of identifying and addressing the constraints to those things, which almost always happen to be something tangential to nutrition and fitness. Can you give me an example? Like, well, like what if someone's, um, sure.

He has four girls. What about cheating on your wife? Let's say you cheat on your wife. What about it? Um, in the, are there things in that program? And I just totally pull that out of the dark.

The things in that program that gets you online to see, Hey, that's not, that's not a, that's not that's not a that's not conducive to a healthy life to be lying to one person is sneaking around. It's like you're not healthy. I don't care about the cheating part. It's like the dishonesty part is the part that understood is not healthy for a human being. So we don't we don't operate optimally when we're lying. For sure. And in that regard, I consider that having a strong cultural component rather than like a ubiquitous human nature component. And so I take a rather relativistic approach insofar as you have these things affecting your

life right now. Let us look at the facts and then you can decide based off of making your private observations public, you can then go through really a rational dialogue with me or someone else to determine how much does this affect your progress. So do I say that's effing up your progress? No. I take a much more Socratic approach because if a person presents an issue, and when I say that, I mean, they make a private issue public, that we have the discussion of, well, tell me what makes it a problem, because somebody might say they have a problem, and then an expert in particular will just put on their expert hat and then guess as to why that makes it a problem for them with the sort of expertise that they have. In other words, if you have a toothache

and go to the chiropractor, what does the chiropractor do? Cracks your back. Oh, right, right. Right? And so what I think the problem is or causes, I put way in the back burner because I care more about

why you think it causes a problem. And then we can have a rational dialogue as to, well, have you distorted the facts and confused it, thus blowing it up or despairing or dramatizing or whatever? Or does the way that you explain or describe the problem to yourself and to other people give you some wiggle room to start modifying these, I'll just call them aversive stimuli that have you act like a fool. And I use act like a fool as more of a term for, well, does it impede your progress? And for some things, people think they have problems and they really do nothing to impede their progress. It really just has to do with them obsessing over it. Do you really deal with

the problem itself or do you deal with obsessive rumination right and so that sort of stuff uh to that end the specific problem i think matters less than like you said how the person adapts to it i know people like that i know a ton of people like that i see people who like they have the same five problems over and over and over and over and i'm like dude correct and I would posit that most everyone operates like that. My man that, you know, you can I I mentioned this the other day. I forget what I think. In any case, you've heard statistics or numbers like people think 30,000 thoughts a day or whatever. And and I would say, yeah, people think the same three things 10,000 times.

Right. Right. So a lot of- Why do you have to, from the first time someone makes fun of you when you're 16 years old and a sophomore in high school, someone says, hey, you have a huge nose. Why does it take until you're 43 to be like, I'm not going to trip on that anymore? Like, dude, you're going to wake up tomorrow. That nose is only getting bigger. You should push that thought to the side. There's nothing you can do about it.

Okay, so the answer you gave actually contributes to the problem, in my opinion. Oh, great, great, good. When you say push it to the side, that really means- I meant push it down and hide it. Well, for sure. I meant push it down and hide it. Well, for sure. In either case, my perspective stands that the gut response for most people basically amounts to ignore it.

And what does ignore it really mean in a practical way from a behavioral standpoint? It means avoiding situations where it happens. Right. And that means every time you avoid a situation where somebody talks about your big ass nose it actually reinforces your aversion to it right until something else happens in your life or a culmination of other things where that dgaf kind of sets in and that's that mean what's what's that mean it stands for don't give a fuck right right right okay so people make fun of my nose and so i stopped going to school and i don't have to deal with anyone making fun of my nose for 10 years. And then all of a sudden I get into the workforce and people are making fun of my nose again. Well, that didn't work.

Correct. Well, it worked. It did work until it stopped. And so you, I like the term that you use adaptation, which a lot of people in exercise use a lot, but they also confuse that adaptation to a stressful stimulus. It often conflicts with social and cultural norms. You adapted to it by avoiding. I consider that an adaptation. You terminated the negative stimulus, period. Now, the adaptation in that situation may or may not translate to other situations where that happens. And so at that point, a person might call it maladaptive or whatever. I consider it all adaptations, or all adaptations. And sometimes you make a relevant adaptation to a specific environment. And a lot of times adaptations to specific environments, they deviate from other specific

environments. So from a therapeutic or coaching or fatherly parental employer standpoint, you want to help people adapt in ways that facilitate generalization. Or you learn to do things in such a way where it helps you in a wide variety of situations rather than just the one situation where it affected you. Otherwise, you start making these arbitrary relations because humans do that, where humans, one of the things that makes us human, has to do with our capacity to generalize one situation to another. If you teach a dog to sit in a quiet room on the kitchen, and then you go to a noisy room and it has carpet,

you may as well speak Greek to the dog. Okay. You can do it with a human. So the capacity to generalize really, really hurts us and helps us at the same time. We have a fear of loud noises. That fear of loud noises has kept us alive more than it's hurt us. So the loud noise from one thing will generalize to loud noises from anything versus like just the noise at this tone, at this cadence, et cetera, et cetera. Right. So to your point about controlled, I'll just call it exposure to these aversive stimuli, you can create these sort of experimental conditions or regulated conditions. So now we bring in a lot of the kickstart component here of obviously you already know what to do. I operate with the understanding you know what to do and that things get in the way of doing it. And those things probably have nothing to do

with food and fitness or nutrition and fitness, as it were, food, different story. And so now we start with designing experimental or regulated environments for yourself so that you can start generalizing those things on purpose in situations where you normally have trouble operating. So you start out in a controlled environment or a regulated environment where you have more influence over more variables. And then over time, you start to do the behaviors that help you in increasingly stressful situations. And so that makes the practical outcome of those situations turning less stressful over time because you have a set of productive behaviors to do when that stressful state presents itself. It's 10 o'clock at night and you're hungry and you're about to eat a pound of cashews,

but you instead divert yourself to Pornhub so that you don't eat too much. I would consider that as step one. Sure. Perhaps. Unfortunately, then you're hungry again. I want to go back to the big nose thing. Sure. So I use the word push it

to the side yeah what what what word what what um and then and then you had a dgaf how do you get how do i how do i get to um dgaf so that that sort of dgaf mode i i i use as more of a comedic sort of explanation because that only happens after, after you mature, as in you've, you've, you've aged beyond youth because these sorts of secondary sexual characteristics that affect attention, affection, and approval. As the usefulness of sex declines, the rejection associated with the secondary sexual characteristics has less influence over us. Right. So basically that comes down to, well, if you get old enough,

you stop giving a shit about anything, which helps nobody. In terms of what do I do about it now oh yes yes good good good yes right yes what could i tell my 19 year here's the truth too going back to what you're saying um it's it's it's not the giant nose that's unattractive to get in the pussy it's the fact that i have a hang-up about it that's what's unattractive to my mates, to my friends. That's the irony of it, right? Yeah, you were inciting. Yeah, like everyone had the friend who was the fat kid who got all the girls and he just had swagger.

You're like, dang, this dude believes in himself. So it's not, it's just, it's kind of, it's just even crazy. But, but so how do you, yeah. So how do you, you nailed me. What's kind of, it's just even crazy. But, but so how do you, yeah. So how do I, and you nailed me. What happened to me is I ended up having kids. And like, and one of the things I came up with is like, hey, I'm never going to let any of my insecurities, I'm going to start letting them all go.

I'm not letting my, I'm not passing those on to my kids. I'm not going to let them see, I'm going to be the first guy at the beach who takes my shirt off. I'm going to be totally comfortable. I'm going to, them see I'm gonna be the first guy at the beach Who takes my shirt off I'm gonna be totally comfortable I'm not passing this shit to them Understood And depending on the perspective you take

You can say that having kids actually facilitated that Yeah, totally And would I recommend having kids to get over your anxiety? No Like at 18 And it probably wouldn't have even worked. Right. Well,

it, it, it does a lot. People grow up fast. Right. It does. Does that make it a, an acceptable thing to do from a cultural standpoint or an economic

standpoint? Or like, do you have the chances of causing more problems than you solve by doing it? Yes. To that end end do i consider it an option absolutely would i consider it a recommendation i would give no why do you have 12 kids well i had a shitload of insecurities i had to get rid of yeah now i spend all of my time

interacting with them instead of worrying about myself right and yeah yes so do, how do I get to de-gaff at 18 with the big nose that someone told me that I didn't even know I had till someone told me at 16 in the lunchroom, they yelled at me. I mean, I'm making it up. I don't remember, but it was in high school. Someone's like, your nose is big. And I remember going home and be like, what are they talking about? Oh shit. When you show up, you approaches most of them you would probably recognize they all have to do with exposure to some degree and you have two different types of exposure you have imaginal exposure or visualizing exposure

and you have i'll just call it real world exposure so the the imaginal exposure takes on more of a stoical approach to these sorts of anxietizing issues where once you operate with the understanding that I actually upset myself over this more than other people upset me, then you can start changing your language patterns around this sort of issue. When you say more, you mean that's a gentle way of saying it's actually all you. So repeat what I said. When you say more, you mean that's a gentle way of saying it's actually all you. Well, so go. So repeat what I said. OK, you're basically saying that you were saying that the Stoke approach is that you realize that it's you causing yourself more of the anger than the other people.

But but the truth is, is it's just all me, right? Well, strictly speaking, no. I would say I would say that the cause of a problem, the vast majority of time, I consider external. And people end up obsessing over the causes of problems when in reality, the cause of the problem ended eons ago. And so obsessing over a problem's cause, I call the root cause fallacy, where if I just know what caused the problem, then this, I'll get all this insight and the problem will magically solve itself. And I call it the root cause fallacy in the context of human behavioral perturbations. Yeah, wow, wow, that's good.

So the obsession with the root cause allows you to give your, you use it as permission to procrastinate from addressing the elephant in the room. Because the more you learn about the root cause, the more you realize the more I have to know before i can do anything about it right before you know it you hate yourself and your parents because your parents caused this problem but what can you do about that nothing so right in the context of these sort of you can take responsibility

well yes that it what caused a problem my, has nothing to do with what keeps it going. So do you have an original external aversive environmental event? Yes, that probably lasted a few seconds. And since that time, you have kept it alive. and leveraging that 10, 15 second experience from however many years ago as permission to keep upsetting yourself over it now. So this obsession with digging into the past and figuring out all this other shit to help your problems now, it just distracts from what actually maintains the issue at the moment. Because how can that person that insulted you 30 years ago

cause a problem right now unless you use it as permission to upset yourself over it so it does take two to tango so again how about all the people around me that demand that i be upset because um dr trevor cashy said i have a big nose or Dr. Trevor Cashy said that I could get over it. He's not taking it seriously. You see what I'm getting at? You see why this is a great metaphor for this day and age, right? Agreed. You threw out the D word, one of my favorite words of demandingness.

Yes. My wife says, that man over there said you have a big nose. You need to go over there and fight him. Oh, the N-word now. So, demandingness, these sort of language patterns associated with demandingness tend to manifest with these extreme sort of absolutist black and white language patterns of need, should, must, have to. language patterns of need, should, must, have to.

There's the class at the university that says that if anyone calls me a short, big-nosed bastard, it's against the law. I can't do that. I believe it. And to pull from the stoic approach of things, which I like to do often in situations like this, it really amounts to like everybody can see that i went bald so that's all you have like like really like can you use your other brain cell to do something else now literally every person on earth that can see me can see i have a large nose out of all the things

fucked up with me you chose the thing everybody can see. I'm short too. I'm short too. Again, something readily observable by 100% of the population that can see you. And so these sorts of like stating the obvious from the stoic perspective, like you literally just stated the obvious. What do you intend to accomplish out of pointing out something everybody can see? Yeah, you should see what I really act like. So like you can you can throw yourself under the bus a little bit there. You can also put it out, like put it out front and therefore like remove the power, whatever you want to say.

But basically, if you draw attention to the things that people make fun of, it gives you that sort of flooding of a fancy Spico word for exposure. You can basically expose yourself to that sort of, I'll just call it abuse. And eventually you do hit that de-gaff mode. It just, it just has a contingency of, do you avoid it once it happens? So if you expose yourself to a stressful situation, if you expose yourself to it long enough, right, your CNS, you'll start to get aroused, right? You'll get aroused by the environment. And then because of the environmental arousal,

you'll start arousing yourself because of it. And that sort of stuff facilitates things like panic attacks. So does the environment actually cause the panic? No, I actually think the environment causes, right? An external stimulus does cause you to get aroused. And then because of that arousal, now you start anxietizing. And you can anxietize into oblivion and have a panic attack and faint or whatever. And you can anxietize into oblivion and have a panic attack and faint or whatever. Or you can recognize that something in the environment aroused you and you can sit in it.

Now, this turns into the key because a lot of people will sit in it and then they will avoid before they come down. So the key to a lot of these exposure style interventions depend on you arousing yourself on purpose and then sitting in that arousal until it declines, until it shrinks, until you adapt to normal, and then you leave. Can you give me an example of that, of when you sit in it and you think the work's done, but you leave before it's done? I'll give a classic example. Let's just say you have a spider phobia, right? And even the idea of spiders, your heart rate starts to go up. Okay. Now, if you go into a room with a spider and your heart rate jacks up and you say, okay, I stayed in here 10 seconds. I'll leave now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So from a lay perspective, it looks like, Hey, you actually spent some time in a room with a spider. Congratulations. From a behavioral perspective, you started avoiding, avoiding the aversive stimulus while aroused. And when you left, then the arousal went down, therefore negatively reinforcing your avoidance. Right? So if you get into the room with a spider, your heart rate jacks up, you start freaking out and you stay in there long enough for your heart rate to stabilize.

And then you leave. Now you have established a different sort. You can start establishing a different sort of behavioral pattern around spiders. We ever liked spiders. Hell no. Can you manage your behavior in the presence of a spider? Yes.

And that, that right there, I think, describes the practical difference with a lot of like affirmational positive psychology type crap and the actual stuff that ends up helping people. Will you ever love your nose? No. Why would you love your nose? How can you magically change your preference? The stupidest thing I've ever heard. You can, however however moderate the way you behave in the presence of negative stimuli that would have otherwise compelled you to act like a fool though but i kind of have actually kind of have what like i like it that i'm kind of turning into like this um um archetypal looking like old armenian man like i am starting to like my nose i'm like holy shit like sometimes i look in the mirror i'm like this is fucking cool i can't believe i'm turning into this you have a

distinguished look yeah like i like i'm starting to look like a portrait like someone should just draw me and put me on a wall somewhere you look recognizable worse things yeah yeah i don't i don't want to just come out and tell you because i don't want to be overly confident. But yeah, maybe I am starting to actually love my nose. Whatever overly confident means you can like things about yourself. Why would I care? Right. Okay, good. This is a safe space, people.

Well, yeah. This is a safe space. As a scientist coming from a completely different field, I have a different set of biases. I just see a lot of things as data, some of it useful, some of like, like all of it, all of it useful. Some of it used. Why did you move to Austin? A couple of reasons. Oh, where were you first? Where were you before you moved? Born and raised in Arizona. Okay. And it's by Scottsdale. you born and raised in arizona okay and it's by scottsdale uh i have frequented scottsdale but i i actually born and born in south scottsdale shore okay uh raised in way west phoenix but

that means nothing because phoenix takes up half the state uh and then spent my so you watch that town explode how old are you? 31. Oh, wow. Okay. So maybe you're pretty young. Did you watch it explode? Yes.

You did. Okay. Enough. One of the fastest growing cities in the world. Yeah. For sure. Yes. Not as fast as a place where Ukrainian immigrants are now running to,

but outside of that, it's very fast. Yeah, right. An interesting word for growth in that context right yes um so why austin a couple of reasons one frankly logistical and financial that like because of the tax situation uh my wife and i mrs, you wanted to move because we lived in Ohio and they have a rather, they have a rather high, an expensive place to live tax wise. I'll leave, I'll leave it at that. I'll leave it at that. Right there. We had a couple of options of like, where can we live? That would make our tax situation easier. And of those places, how many of those places do we know people? And so I moved here more or less because of the tax situation, the value per dollar situation. I'll just call it cost of living. I guess that works out as a more diplomatic term, okay? Because of the better

cost of living and because my best friend, Alex Hormozy, lives here. And so those two things combined made it an easier decision to move here. Also, since you have a CEO shirt on, I highly recommend you look him up, especially if you like hyper-masculine polarizing individuals. He definitely fits in that category. polarizing individuals. He definitely fits in that category. But arguably my best friend, I'll just say my best friend, and he has accomplished amazing things, very amazing things in his own right. So look him up and you will find him quite interesting. Just because of my own, my own, what do I say here? The, I have prejudice because of your shirt. the, I have prejudice because of your shirt. Ah, yes, yes, yes, yes. The shirt, the shirt has a great story.

My shirt, you know what I mean? It's, it's like this is the shirt that I sell that people buy overly priced. And then I use the money to actually, I was planning on using the money to pay, pay to raise my kids. But instead I'm just being given away shit loads of free shirts. Good. Yeah. Yeah. Good for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You may even get one. It's still early. We still have 40 minutes to fuck this up.

Yes, I know who this is, Alec Hormozy. I know who this is. Good. Do you know who Ryan Fisher is? Yes. I know Ryan Fisher through the crossfit community and he's been on the podcast maybe more than once for sure once and then um and then i saw a picture on ryan's instagram account that showed him i think he was in mexico or something with

this gentleman uh mr hormosi and then i started following this guy i think i may have asked this guy to come on the podcast you know six seven eight hundred times probably probably yeah i've met mr fisher quite a few times i even did like a two and a half hour podcast with him that ended up literally getting lost oh no shit yeah just like he came over and spent the whole day over here and we gabbed the whole day set up his fancy stuff and then uh i guess something happened with the recording in any case like uh we have we have positive disposition towards each other so far as i know i like the guy and he hangs out with so like we all it all works out pretty good we trained a few times it's crazy how small this world is because i didn't find you through them. I found you through Michael Easter.

Yes. And frankly, only in the last maybe six months, I have made any amount of effort to come out of the cave. Yeah. So I have more existed as like the person working with people like that more than the person in front of the camera. Um, it's funny you say that. So one of the things I never had an issue with the way I look. This episode is brought to you by PC Optimum. If you like a curated playlist,

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hey, I want a nose job or I want to cut it off. I'm always like, yeah, I like the way I look. I'm like, I like, when I look in the mirror, I'm like, oh, that's cool. Always. But during this sort of explosion of social media where everyone has their own TV station, I was like, I didn't think that other people should have to look at me. Does that make sense to you? Okay. I didn't think, like, I didn't think that other people should have to look at me. Does that make sense to you? Okay. I didn't, I didn't think like, like I saw other people, like I would see you and I would

be like, Oh, Dr. Cash, he looks handsome and he looks smart. And I like his eyes and his eyebrows. And, and I like, I like looking at him and I don't have what it takes to be in front of the camera. Well, about, I don't know, about two years ago, in my whole life, I've always walked towards things that are uncomfortable, right? So like, you know, in high school, if there was a play and the thought of getting on stage and doing a performance would give me massive anxiety, so I would go do it. I'd go try out for the play. I've always been like that. It's funny. In kind of the whole CrossFit community, you're kind of around those like-minded people, people who see something that looks like it's going to bother you or irritate you and you

kind of go towards it. Yeah. A classic way to normalize self-harm fitness. Yes. And to just sort of confront, um, like public speakings like that, like I hate it. Um, I don't enjoy like meeting strangers, but this podcast like forces me to go straight into it when you, but all of a sudden, about two years ago podcast like forces me to go straight into it. When you, but all of a sudden, about two years ago, I started speaking to the camera and it's been this growth for me in a very, very positive way. Incredibly positive way. Have you experienced that? Or what was your apprehension to, to coming out of the cave and being forward facing? Did you not like the way you looked or did you not think your message was worthy or did you think it was a waste of time or what was your deal? And then, and then how have you grown since then? Frankly, none of the above with me,

with people taking what I say out of context and using it in a way differently than I intended it. Oh yes. So misunderstood for, or, or just frankly abused malicious. Yeah, essentially. And so I, I care very much about that. Like your, your, your question for the two word sentence or the two sentence explanation gave me palpitations because how can you explain anything in two sentences? And so that's sort of like, what can I say? How can I explain this in such a way that we end on the same page? We end on the same page. Okay. And that, that takes,

all right, what do we talk about? Let's discuss the key terms. Once we have an operational understanding of the key terms, now we can start incorporating those into the conversation and we can start solving problems, having a conversation, whatever. And when you start getting interviewed by people, by excellent journalists, by lawyers, by people who know how to interview, they can make a person that has expertise in the subject look like adult for one, because you have limited experience interviewing, even though a lot of experience in the lab or a lot of experience in the gym or a lot of experience anywhere, handling the sort of interaction with a person that knows how to interview, for instance,

can really create a lot of issues, especially like if you have a lovely conversation with somebody the next day, you see a headline and that headline has approximately zero to do with anything you spoke about. It might take one of the words you say out of context and turn it into something that sounds totally different. Worst case scenario, what happened to Joe Rogan? Okay, sure. Okay. Which made me this, I have, have this, this fear that what I say gets used in a way different than I want it to get used. Right. Right. In, in, in essence. So for that reason, I avoided a lot of public appearances because I could with a high performing person, which I use the term generally, right? Billionaire, gold medalist, whatever. I could sit, close the door, have a three hour conversation with that person.

And we check all the fucking boxes. Every single one. And amazing shit happens. Period. Period. shit happens period period and in any other sort of condition you roll the dice a little bit more and a little bit more and a little bit more and i want to leave right pulling my putting my scientist hat back on i want to leave as little to guessing as humanly possible man and so at that point it turns into like well how can i have a sort of persona that like the Bill Nye or the Alton Brown or the

sort of like infotainment style interactions? Like, how can I make this vague enough to protect myself, but also make people think that they learned something and also keep them entertained? It just turned into this big monkey dance where I stressed myself out over it. And so Hormozy actually taught me a lot about this. And I'll just throw the T word out there, Trump, et cetera, et cetera, that to some degree, even all the shit talking helps you. And so in that regard, I can start exposing myself and friends like Easter, friends like Hormozy, Fisher, et cetera, et cetera. If I get mentioned and somebody invites me on that, I will nut up, so to speak, and do it. So these sorts of things I have limited experience in because, well, why would I go on this person's podcast

when I already work with these other, well, it has nothing to do with that. Right. So this I have an opportunity with like with you to help a lot of people. And so and and help myself so we can learn from each other. I will I will adapt to the aversive stimulus of public speaking, less to do with the public speaking, because I have zero problems with public speaking and more to do with the fear of people using my words in some other way I intended and giving me credit for it at the same time. How generous of them. Yes, correct. So I've given, you know, I've given works, like I've given workshops with four digit crowds. It still had that sort of like, close the doors we come to terms we check the boxes and we all end on the same page so we we cut we enter strangers and we leave friends

and very few interactions give you the opportunity to do something like that and so like you have longer podcasts and so for that reason i actually like that helped me And so like you have longer podcasts. And so for that reason, I actually like that helped me because we can start this as strangers. I go in blind to try and eliminate some forms of bias on purpose. And if we hit it off, great. If we diverge, great. In either case, we learn things about each other and we will end up coming to terms throughout. And so long as we come to terms, like we have an op, like I understand the words that the face noises you make, and you understand

the face noises that I make, even if we diverge in our opinions, we still have an amicable interaction. But most of the time when, when people diverge in their opinions, they diverge in their opinions because they think, they think the same words mean different things and so they end up they end up trivializing the point of the conversation and then going towards really more malicious style interaction and so long as we you asshole yeah right you're you're adult you're adult i've never used that word adult i learned it uh someone called me adult on the internet i had to look it up a couple months ago and i heard you use it and i just tried to use it for the first time okay adult a stupid person yeah adult you don't can you can you just say it like that could i just like like can my wife like park the car on the sprinkler on the lawn and i'd be like you don't i've only in in present day i've only

ever heard it used as gossip like talking about somebody else uh okay in private you don't you don't sling it at him like you fucking idiot that's so just stick with you fucking idiot uh so i i i love playground insults or or grandmotherly insults i love that like what a turkey man oh that's good yeah i have a podcast with this guy, Josh Bridges. He's clean like that, too. Instead of saying Jesus Christ, he says cheese and crackers. Yeah. Instead of shut the fuck up, he'd be like, shut the front door. And he's a Navy SEAL.

Oh, I love it. And to some degree, with a person like that, it can hit harder. Yeah, and a pussy like me, I got to, like, sling some, like, harder shit around. Yeah, like, if I bust out knucklehead, like. Yeah. sling some like hard shit around posture a little bit if i bust out knucklehead like yeah like i i mean that if i say you're a fucking asshole that probably means we have a very strong friendship someone or someone called me crazy town banana pants that almost sounds like a compliment i know i was like i i saw that on the internet i was like wow this is this is a lot there's a lot of words to be called crazy town banana pants and then i started thinking i was like the kind of person who slings that like insult around that

they like cook cookies for their neighbor they don't like. You know what I mean? This show is completely crazy town banana pants. I put less butter in their recipe. Yes, yes, I'm going to punish him. Another one that trips me out about communication, the misunderstanding of words, but two things that I'm really hyper-focused on and I've been focused on for, for a bit here is, um, can you say explicit implications of certain behaviors that people don't understand and it's causing society to get really, really twisted. So it's that and duality. And I'll give you,

I'll give you two examples of we'll circle back around to the duality one, but it's, um, after you told me, um, that I have a big nose, um, then a couple of days later you say, sorry to me. And basically what that does is that sets the stage for, you knew that it was an insult and it actually sets me back from getting over it myself. You, by saying, sorry, you're demanding that I acknowledge it was insulting. So people with, I don't have resting bitch face, but people with resting bitch face experience this all the time. People will walk up to him and be like, what's wrong. And they'll live up to it. Nothing was wrong. But when you say to him, they'll be like, oh, well, when I left the house this morning,

my dog hadn't eaten yet. And it's stressing me out, even though it's like, and there's this giant loop of that shit going on in our society right now. Okay. Are you feeling me on that? That wasn't a great example. Are you feeling me on – I understand. I have – I will – I'll read between the lines, and you can accept or reject. Okay, yeah.

Say what I said and make it smarter. So – Please. I have noticed the increase in disturbance as a function of economizing language where you use the term explicit implications. It sounds a lot like what appear as demands that we put on ourselves

for other people to act a specific way. Yes. Because of previous interactions we have that may have occurred in other situations. And therefore we, we appropriate it as a cultural standard. Right, right, right, right. And a lot of times, or 100% of the time, it means that we leave it up to the other person to guess what we mean. And so what you call explicit implications, it really puts the demand on the other person to what other people might call read your mind. Okay. Yes. Yes. Now, a lot of times or projecting their shit onto you with the demandingness yeah yeah so in a lot of situations it works out just fine it works out enough it gets intermittently rewarded intermittently

reinforced so like you roll the dice every time you do it and because of culture it works often often enough to do it all the time all the time okay and sometimes it goes awry. And in those situations, it creates disturbance and one, the other are both people because those demands got violated. And so the economizing of language, what you call the explicit implications has quite a few benefits in a lot of circumstances to, you know, people, people will call body language or, you know, I like to say dynamic posture, things like that. We just assume that the other person knows. In other words, they must know what this body language means or else they're an idiot. And so this demandingness, I actually have a, hold on, hold on a second second i've got a toy oh good let me see

this oh yes okay wow wow hold on wow restart this because now i have now he's stealing the show now he's stealing the show one second i gotta i gotta delay here all right there okay so this okay people this is now going to cost you extra money yeah turn off the stream if you haven't paid up your monthly dues so i have a basic um three-term contingency here i put basic in quotes the s stands for stimulus the r stands for response, the R stands for response, and the O stands for outcome. Now, the outcome determines the strength of the stimulus the next time the stimulus presents itself. Just like we discussed, just like we already discussed, the outcome of a situation now changes the effect of the stimulus the next time it presents. So it can either create a larger

aversion or you can start adapting to it, et cetera. So when you start getting into these language patterns, we have three, I'll just, I put source in quotes because depending on the sort of orientation you have, it could turn all external, like which would like extreme behaviorism or all internal, which I'd lead to probably more contemporary style, stoical, cognitive behavioral stuff. You have three basic sources of where problems arise. Like you can cause them yourself, other people can cause them, or life in general can just kick you in the nuts. Okay. And depending on how you, so you observe, you observe the source of a disturbance here. So this turns into your stimulus, the source of its stimulus, these three sources. I'm triggered by them. I'm

triggered by them. I don't believe in them. I don't believe in them. I screwed, like I messed up, you messed up, life sucks. And so very generic sort of sources here. And from there, depending on how you describe that observation affects what happens next. Oh, good. Okay. It changes the probability. And so you brought up the D word of demandingness. Okay. One of the major distortions, I call it a core distortion, has to do or associates with the language pattern of should, must, have to, need, gotta.

So I call it masturbating. You start masturbating. You must do this. I must act perfect. She must treat me well. Life must give me the best parking spot, whatever. Okay? Yes, yes, yes.

That alone can cause problems, which we'll get to in a second. However, in a lot of instances, this demandingness should must have to need to bring out your explicit implication. This has an implied or else. Demandingness does this. I get excited about talking to this stuff. So the sort of language, Pat, is we start making rules. Like, you must treat me this way. They must like my video.

You're describing parenting right there, too, with kids. There's a gnarly implication. I call it the hostage crisis. I've made some videos on it. When kids demand stuff, they don't tell you this about parenting. But once you have kids, you're in a hostage crisis at all times. They demand shit and like, do you want to deal with saying no or yes? It's crazy. Yeah. And a lot of that has to do, and in that situation, you actually have a skill deficiency. Okay. How do you act assertive with

a child, for instance? Okay. Different can of worms worms so demandingness has this implied or else you should do this or else or else or else what or else what or else you're racist sexist homophobe bad parent asshole blah blah blah point or else you start dramatizing for instance i should do this or else i'm a failure nothing Nothing ever works. Everything sucks. What happens when you start dramatizing, we have everything fails, nothing works. The allness and nothingness sort of language, the everythingness and nothingness. Well, because I never succeed, Well, because I never succeed, now I'm a failure. You start downing yourself.

Now you're an asshole. So when you make these demands, and the demands by definition, I consider them rather perfectionistic, when they get violated, you tend to dramatize the result. Nothing ever works works why does this stream always fuck up when i press the play button okay and now stupid computer now you start downing yourself you start downing other people you start life sucks etc and then that can then progress to despairing which you bring out the twos like t--O-O. Too difficult, too stressful, like why bother? You start getting the why bother, you start despairing, okay? So this I write out

as a neat little model. That's why Melissa's masturbating. So I have this neat little model that a lot of times happens in this order, but it can happen in any order. I bet you recognize these sorts of language patterns. And so when these language patterns get, I guess to use an old school term, stamped in, when you use them in a stressful situation, you now create a respondent condition. In other words, if you say nothing ever works when you get stressed out,

well, then the next time you say nothing ever works when you get stressed out, well, then the next time you say nothing ever works, you'll stress yourself out when you say it. Just like Pavlov's dogs and the bell. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep. So good on its own, demanding this on its own can cause disturbance. And here I have disturbance listed as like the classic sort of negative feelings. Okay. You can also have them on the other side of the spectrum to arrogance, et cetera. But basically here you can consider this an emotional disturbance. And so you can have demandingness itself can cause a disturbance and these derivatives of demandingness can cause disturbance. Man, nothing ever fucking works when I press the button to start the stream.

So what happens the next time you go to start the stream? Well, since nothing ever works and this computer is really stupid, why bother doing it? And so then when it comes stream time, you start anxietizing. Okay? So does that sort of model follow? And then some, and then some and then some yes and and so to bring back the which which touches on what you were saying it's in its circular thinking which causes depression and i see people doing that all the time circular thinking is

man i call it i always say it's like banging your head into a brick wall. My dad's been trying to explain to me, I'm 50, the difference between lay and lie. And he always says the same thing. And I told him the first 20 years you explained it to me, I'm an idiot that I haven't fixed it. The next 20 years, you're a fucking idiot. He goes, how do you figure? I'm like, dude, you haven't changed your approach. Yeah.

Like you say the same thing every time I misuse lay and lie. Yep. Jackass. And that just has to do with the way he gets reinforced in that interaction he might he might like correcting you more than more than he cares that you change oh my goodness oh my goodness how dare you break my dad down how dare people do things because they got rewarded for doing it i hear you like like or they got punished right right he operates that way because in previous experiences something happened to increase the probability of him doing it again so i just think in terms of probability here and so the more often situations happen the the more like reinforcement just stands for another like you can just call it an increasing probability. What about just autopilot? Well, you think that's just a,

say that again? That depends who you ask. Right. So you, I pose that as a, as a, as a, not, maybe not an opposing theory, but a theory maybe in conjunction or it could be opposing to people do what they're rewarded for. And what about just these people around me who are just on autopilot well you can still make the argument that experiences in the past shaped the shaped the behavior in the present in other words that behavior came from somewhere right came from a previous experience where it worked out like someone told me the other day that um they're really really stressed out about global warming i go what about it they're like well the environment the air quality so bad and i did a couple quick searches and i'm like hey we have the greatest

air quality on the planet since the advent of fire okay like they're like well uh um they were tripping like i just like i threw a bucket of cold water on them. Perhaps. So what problem do you want to solve? But they were just on auto. I could tell they were just on autopilot. Like they just saw their feedback loop just gives them that stuff. And I was like, well, hey, let's check. Let's see if that's true.

And for that reason, I like to present this sort of behavior as a, ooh, annoying. One moment. We can still see it though. It's good. Stimulus, response, outcome. So I like to present this as a three-term contingency that feeds into itself because that person still has the fear of the air quality and now really just short-circuited their way of talking about it. So from like a cognitive standpoint, a cognitive therapist might say that sort of interruption will end up helping that person think better next time. But in reality, you throwing a bucket of water on their electrical system punished them into changing the way they explain their fear next time. Or they just hate me. Exactly correct. Exactly correct, my friend. And so I make the joke that punishment makes criminals,

right? It teaches people to avoid the bad thing. And in some instances, avoiding the bad thing also leads to doing more good stuff. In a lot of situations instances avoiding the bad thing also leads to doing more good stuff and a lot of situations avoiding the bad thing means doing the original thing in a different way yeah yeah when i was young much younger i've known my wife forever she one time said to me um and it's just stuck with me forever. People lie to avoid discomfort. Well, like, like you cheat on a test because you don't want to get the bad grade. You know, sure. You your your girlfriend asked you, were you out with that other girl?

You say no. Yeah. Even though you were out with her and her friends. You know, it's it's a lying ends up like the label of lying ends up causing issues of its own because then you watch the voice and call it a lie. So I really just see it as people avoid conflict. And sometimes they do what other people describe as lying. Yeah. So does that make them a liar?

Well, no. It means they did something to avoid conflict. And the behavior that they did also ends up conflicting with what culture would accept, but that it has less to do with the lying and more to do with your response to that stimulus gave you an outcome that causes more problems than it solves. In other words, calling it lying accomplishes nothing. Okay. From a practical standpoint. What does the person do instead because another person would say stop lying but how the fuck does that help anyone man right oh i'm starting i'm starting to see this theme and what you're saying it's so good operating to avoid getting called a liar

yeah yeah facilitates the same damn behavior and makes a more uh makes a a more um uh i'm gonna say like really just makes a more clever criminal so the the implications are that sort of morally charged language does it help a person to operate in a way that other people accept and they feel okay with it? No. It just scares them into operating some other way. And that other way they operate may have cultural acceptance and may just get hidden enough to keep from getting rejected. And now you know where a bulk of anxiety comes from. and now you know where a bulk of anxiety comes from um we we lie to avoid imaginary punishment right yes you have you avoid so the like you use an interesting term imaginary here for punishment

really if you get punished temporally temporally. So you get, you create a superstitious behavior for instance. So if you get, if you get the crap beaten out of you in a room with a red clock, well then if you enter a room with a red clock, your nervous system will start getting tuned. Okay. So if you have a punishing experience, then you start making these arbitrary relations with things in the environment that then, that then start increasing your emotionality when these stimuli present themselves again. Hopefully that ends up following that doesn't really have to do with imagining a punishment as much as something in the environment related to a previous punishing experience. related to a previous punishing experience. And so because if you end up changing the environment,

that anxietizing goes away unless something else in the environment ends up generalizing to that other punishing experience. And language can do the same thing. So people can tell themselves all sorts of crazy shit and work themselves up. Like we just discussed with the semantic model that I just described, with the sources and and the uh the distortion and then the disturbance so you because of the way face noises work if you just think of language like noise instead of like

this amazing things that humans do to transfer information and it's like all of a sudden it's a miracle whatever if a cop flip turns on his siren, it stresses you out, right? And because that sort of noxious, obnoxious noise, we have an innate aversion to it. And it gets paired with other stuff, but basically it gets your attention and stresses you out. Now, a lot of language can operate the same way. If you call someone a liar or an asshole or a thief or I love you or whatever, that noise then like elicits a respondent condition in the person's body, just like the siren ends up working somebody up. And so if you look at these words like noises and how those noises, startling noises, end up relating things in the environment or startling things in noises, end up relating things to the environment, or startling things in the

environment end up relating to the noises, well, now you, to loop back to the very beginning of our conversation, start to get an idea of how language can affect a person's behavior, and how much it depends on the person's history with those face noises rather than words. And really looking at it in terms of a noise at this cadence and this magnitude really changes the way you start really respecting how these things can affect behavior. Because it makes very little sense to say that I love you would make somebody run away. Okay. I love you makes a lot of people run away for whatever reason. Why would somebody run away when I love you means this,

but you've missed the point of meaning. Meaning comes from previous experiences and stimuli getting paired with the face noise. Such a good example. See how I get like worked up over this shit. Such a good example. Thank you for letting me literally scream about that. It just,

it tied in so nicely to the beginning part of the conversation of why. So good. And if you start looking at it as noise, instead of these men and their psychoanalytical symbols and blah, blah, like, no, you have these noises that have relations with the

environment so a i'm really hung up on but i'm i haven't told you what i'm really hung up on i'm trying not to talk about it in this show i want to i want to ask about it after if you want sure sure uh um when i think of reality versus thoughts, I like to use this example about the red light. We all agree it means stop for the function, and yellow means slow down, and red means go for the function of us not getting into traffic accidents. Okay. And, but,

but we know that red doesn't really mean stop. It's like an accepted delusion or an accepted signifier. It's just an accepted. It's accepted. I'll give you another example. Okay. Hold on one second. Please go ahead.

That ends up confusing what this gets a little little philosophical here or even epistemological. Okay. You have to, have to, to throw out some demandingness here, consider what meaning means. Wait, hold on. Sorry. Hold on one second. I Venmo'd him $1,000. Nothing's free.

Dr. Cash, he's a shark. I told him I'd have to – but we have to put it on YouTube. Okay, go ahead. Indubitably. Yes. If you have an operational definition of meaning, then you can reconcile a lot of this sort of tension you have. Because we all know it means this, even though we do these things instead. And to me, that sounds confusing as shit, man. So that then, it begs the question of what does meaning mean, which gets a little epistemological here.

Like, how do we really know the things that we know? And so I'll give an example and then I'll let you continue. If you have a one dollar bill and you throw it on the ground and another perfect example. Go ahead. Yes. And you throw it on the ground and a toddler walks in. They pick it up. You have a neutral stimulus. Okay. They play with it. They tear it up. They draw on it.

They whatever. If you throw down a $1 bill, the toddler picks it up. You take the $1 bill from them and you hand them a piece of candy. Okay. Something interesting happens. The next day, they pick up the dollar bill off the ground and run up to you swinging it, expecting you to trade it for a piece of candy now money means something right because you've paired a neutral stimulus with a

polarized stimulus you've paired something neutral with something positive and the reason why that's imaginary too in my definition is because that's also takes place in between the ears. Well, if you mean that we behave because of impulses sent from our brain, I agree. No, let me give you the opposites, and then maybe we can get on the same page here. Okay, so this is a Listerine pack. Okay. And this is the Listerine pack. Okay. And this is the Listerine strip. All right. And I just put it in my mouth.

We can agree that those words actually pointed at something real outside of us as signifiers. Okay. Keep going. Okay. Okay, keep going. Okay. But we know that money actually isn't worth anything. Outside of the fact of maybe lighting it on fire and building a fire by it. But we give it an imaginary meaning that we've all agreed upon in order for civilization to operate.

And as human beings, we can distinguish between these things. um to to operate and as human beings we can distinguish between these things um so so though i'm trying to give you a model for what i see is real and what i see is don't really not real i will question all your answers as as the resident intellectual irritant please okay and so um let me get a little further down and then you can punch a hole in it if you want. Yeah, sure. And so we could use something – I'll give you two more. Another thing is when there was the Queen of England at one point – I forget the exact story, but the spirit of it is correct. She took two weeks off the calendar and the city of London rioted because people thought they lost two weeks of their life. people thought they lost two weeks of their life they were unable to distinguish between what's real and what is imaginary in order to allow us to operate to operate on the planet together as as a unit and i feel i know i feel i see a lot of human beings are not able to distinguish between

these things another perfect example is like gravity gravity is a lot of human beings are not able to distinguish between these things. Another perfect example is like gravity. Gravity is a description of this phenomenon that we have going, but it is also just a description. It is still just in between our ears to describe an actual event that happens outside. And we are with a – our cohort is unable to distinguish that, and because because of that there's a conflation of what is reality and what are ideas and so we're surrounded by crazies okay what i call autumn or automated robots okay and we all fall prey to it or not pray we all fall to it's the circumstances of this confusion but but if you don't have the skill set to dig into it and you can be manipulated in any way.

So you bring up a great point of having the understanding that this has to do with skills and what do skills really mean, ways of behaving. And so, yes, I agree that with different sets of. This show's over. Thank you very much. It was great having you. He agrees. Yes, that with different environmental conditions, people behave in different ways. And in some conditions, your behaviors help you. And in

other conditions, your behaviors make things worse. So this, this idea, I suppose, like we all agree that the red means stop. Uh, I, I will, but some people think it's truth well so these things like you already assume truth exists by okay you make the assumption that even worth exists and so you kind of fall prey to your own language by saying well they don't know what it's worth or what worth like you have the assumption that worth exists when you could also create the circularity of like, well, we all agree what worth means. And so to that end, if you consider language as a separate, as a behavior, rather than what a lot of people consider a precursor to behavior, a lot of people will say, well, thinking causes acting. And that seems to follow. We all agree, right? Well, if you walk forward while thinking lay down,

do you fucking lay down? No. So does thinking cause acting? No. I consider language and action in and of itself. So when you say we agree, red means stop. To me, that means if you get presented with what looks like a red stoplight, people know to say the word red or to say the word stop or both. And if you look at it that way, rather than making the argument that language has all this inherent worth and meaning and magical containers of information, if you give a picture of a red stoplight to a child they might say stop and so now you've just created the relation between this red stoplight and saying the word stop right now we have separate relations but but that's different than if if if we if if a cars were coming and a wall lowered from the heavens and stopped a car so it couldn't go forward, then that would be a real stop.

For sure. And so now we have how language does affect behavior. Right. Because now we have secondary relations. If you think of this like a triangle, okay? Secondary relations of what the face noise stop means because your parent at some point might say stop and grab you. Right, right. Okay. And now we have this triangular relation between red, the face noise stop and keeping our body still. And

so these things have a network of relationships, but they have an interrelation more than a functional relationship with each other. They operate separately. So a person can know that red means stop. But if that person learned that stop meant something else, well, then they would keep going. And so that just has to do with how you end up creating this network of relations from your previous experiences. And culture, thank goodness, makes a lot of these sorts of relationships ubiquitous, like you said. Does that follow? Yeah. Maybe what I'm trying to say is not what's real, but what's in the outside world versus the inside world.

And there's a conflation of that amongst our society. Okay. And don't let me browbeat you if you're like, man, this guy's fucking so far off base. No, no. You maintain the classic realism philosophical stance that a vast majority of educated people take. We have a world out there and we have a world in here. I just think we have one world and we behave in it. Right, right.

And instead of trying to create two, like you store the whole fucking world inside your head and this little Keebler elf tells you what to do out like right hell right it's like cognitive behavioral nightmare right like some some little person in your head tells you what to do and you argue like what on earth like okay okay let me give you an example than this okay people will people people will be like um uh so i used to grow marijuana and people would be like but it's illegal and i would be like yeah and they're like so you can't so you can't do that and so that just loops back to demandingness right they've made a demand of you to do something different you violated that demand and then the way that they described it probably caused an emotional response that they think it's um i didn't i didn't go into they think it's like

holy law like okay so let me say this so i jump off the roof and we will agree that i i come down and every man comes down we can agree on that right okay they see it as that okay as a law as a law of nature well they see they see the aversion to punishment associated with illegal. Well, use all of them together. Okay. The red light means stop. They think that's a law that's on par with jumping off the roof. They see that two weeks off the calendar means you're going to die two weeks as on par with jumping off the roof, but they're not on par.

Sure. Right? Sure. calendar means you're going to die two weeks um yeah as on par with jumping off through but they're not on par sure right sure from from a and if you can't distinguish those then you could use some skills that yes the implications are mass the implications of what of what you're limited by are massive yes agreed and how easy we have governments and all sorts of other things that try and help moderate that sort of stuff do i have to share this with dr cat i don't have to share this right i don't have to share okay good you share whatever you want um i'm so far off my notes what the fuck has happened in this show notes notes and notes my notes are just my blanket like my security blanket yes yes uh to your point when i defended my dissertation i brought a stack of notes this high and most people come into their

dissertation defense a lot of people bringing nothing and so my committee gave me a bunch of shit uh and really just like would you rather i not have the information that would help me answer your questions yeah like were they joking when they gave you shit or like it was like legit well when it was in a dissertation defense with people like that like when you have a like a like a for lack of a better term like a person who people who work with noble prize winners award winners etc every question turns into a test and so they asked to see how i would answer more than they more more than they assumed that broke any rules. Cause I could do whatever I wanted. It just had. So in that regard,

like I brought information so that I could provide you information when you asked. And at that point, like, Oh great, let's continue. But for another person who goes, Oh my God,

did I brought my notes? Is this bad? Like, do I have to memorize everything? Like you forced me to write in a lab notebook, the past six years of my freaking ass life to keep me from having to remember so as an aside sean connery's character in the third indiana jones movie probably gave me the the the north star of my behavior for

my entire life where he goes and he goes dad don't you have all this shit remembered like the because yeah yeah you know, and he goes, son, I wrote it down. So I didn't have to remember. And it's like an eight year old. I was like, whoa, the magic of pencil and paper. Yeah. And then you see it like, and scientists in general, you see this theme of like, I have things I can look it up. Why would I memorize it? You end up memorizing stuff on accident, obviously, because you surround yourself by it all the time and form a lot of functional relations with the environment. But in reality, like if I want to know something, I'll look it up. In other words, I appreciate you having notes because to

me, it just means you care. Yeah. Well, you know, and there's a point where, did you use any of those notes during your dissertation? No. Okay. I think I may have looked at them once while thinking about what to answer. Right. Oh, so more as a prop than as a. So actually looking at the notes actually primed the response that I wanted to give. And so. They're a great prop. Yeah. Yep.

It's kind of like you're like a whip you'd use to keep a line in check but it's like your own personal like whip i i you know if you prompt yourself to do the right thing like how why would anybody like that makes zero sense to take that away from you right i noticed that the more notes i have the more nervous i am about the guest so yesterday i had a guy on who was a former crossfit athlete um he was was the youth champion two years in a row. And now he's like a Twitch guy. He plays video games for money. Yeah, familiar.

Very familiar with that platform. Big fan. Okay. Wow, really? You are? Yeah, I love Twitch. Oh, I would have never guessed that. And you judged completely wrong.

But today, I have three pages. But anything really over two pages is bad for me i've noticed it lessens my it's a it's a it's a bad signifier like it's a it's a it's a sign that like i'm probably too nervous and then that but and so you're a three-page guy okay i'll take it yeah yeah you're a three page guy. Okay. I'll take it. Yeah. You're a three page. And it's, it's, it's all your fault and it's all your fault. Absolutely. Um, in 30 and 27 minutes, I'm going to have the great rich froning on, but I, I didn't, I really want to know about your history, but I'm not going to go into it now because

I'm going to hope that I can have you on again. I want to know about, I want to know about you being young. You said something on that other podcast where you said my dad was in the can. And when I heard you say that, I thought maybe your dad was in the bathroom. I'm like, that's a weird thing to say. And then I realized, no, not that can. No, not that can. Not that can. Another can. Another can. Okay. Here's the, here's what, here's one more subject. We definitely don't have time, but I'm going to open it up with you anyway. What about duality? What about the, I don't like Dr. Kashi. And someone would make the, what I would call the presupposition that I dislike you. position that i dislike you but i don't like dr cashy i love dr cashy they don't let that exist on its own i don't like him and i think don't is pointing at like oh boy did you did you did

you cheat from another conversation i had with somebody about this no no no no no not at all not at all no no i heard you say that in a joking way to clarify. Oh yeah, no. But when I was on with Michael Easter, I started asking him a bunch of questions about words because I thought as an author and he's basically, he's like, Hey, fuck you. Talk to Dr. Cashy. Okay. And then, and then, you know, and I didn't really know why cause I'm like, Oh, this is the nutrition guy guy like this guy tells you like how many bananas it's okay to eat in a day i can do that too i can count your rice kernels for you if you want but then i listened to that podcast you

did with that other cat and i'm like oh shit this is a word guy we're not even going to talk about like i just plug his website for him and then i'm just going to dig into this giant brain of his. Okay, so what about that? Can we teach people not to do that? And English wasn't my first language. And so I wonder if that's Armenian was. And so I wonder if that's why. No. Okay.

So it comes back to the economizing of language. If you can add negative modifiers in front of words, then you effectively truncate your vocabulary by a massive margin. So I like to give the example of like your girlfriend walks out of the dressing room and she goes, does this dress make me look fat? And you say, no, it doesn't make you look fat. She gets all pissy. Now, why does, and I consider that a classic joke and a lot of people kind of like nod in agreement and chuckle like why i said she didn't look fat why did you get mad yeah well this hey oh that's not what she's looking for you were supposed to read into it and be like dude well great good good point but

don't think about the pink elephant oh darn it don't think about the pink elephant. Don't think about the pink elephant. So now you start creating ironic processes because you depend on another person to translate your language. So this sort of thing takes two to tango, my friend. If you say, like, if you say don't eat that, well, then what the hell does a person do instead? And so this sort of negative modification, you lean on the other person to read your mind. OK, you do. You roll the dice when you use negative modifiers, negative language in general. If you go back and listen to our conversation, you will see I use words in a careful way and i have used approximately zero negative modifiers give me an example of a zero uh uh negative modifier adding no or don't or un okay if you say i don't unfuck like wow you really unfucked me dr cashy like that would be

you could just say it helped you okay yeah yeah Yeah, yeah. You helped me. So this ends up falling into a dialect of English. I'll just say I developed it to take all the blame of positive present tense action oriented language, which we can probably talk about some other time. It hinges on identifying and addressing negative modifiers with language has nothing to do with negativity and positivity and all that like affirmational, happy, sad crap, and more to do with how much translating does the other person have to do for them? Like what chances do you raise or lower the chances of a person understanding what you say? So if you have a really stressed out person with a gun to their head, how would

you speak to that person? Would you say, don't do it? don't do it? Or would you say, put the gun down? Okay, when you start thinking those sorts of situations, remember back face noises rather than language. If you start looking at how these face noises interact with other things in this person's past experiences and your past experiences. If you say, don't shoot yourself, don't think about the pink elephant, what do you end up imagining? You end up imagining shooting yourself and then having to translate multiple times how to reorient your behavior. Not don't fall, hold on tight yeah oh excellent example so i talk about this a lot with parents because i just don't want them to do this anymore what do you want them to do right redirection too instead of like stop don't do that don't go in the street how about holding a hand how much translating does that little kid have to do?

How much can they do? Because your lackadaisical language puts the responsibility on them to translate. And if you want to influence another person's behavior, then it behooves you to make your language as simple as possible. And because you economize your language to use fewer words, you then put it on the other person to try and translate it. And when you have demandingness operating in the background, now it starts creating some issues where when a person does something different than you demand, but you demanded them to do something in a negative way, then it creates a lot of these emotional disturbances. Like, don't do that shit anymore what do they hear do that shit anymore yeah yeah my wife my wife taught me that before we had kids

she was like really pounding that into me cool and so now you have this silent demand of like this person can't treat me like this anymore they have to they have to never treat me like this again and so when you say like don't do this to me anymore, and then you have these sorts of demands and the person operates the same way again, well, what chance did you give them to change their behavior in a way that you want? And so again, it takes two to tango here because it behooves you if you care that the person understands what you mean. And by the word understand, I mean you influence their behavior the way you want to influence their behavior, okay?

Even if that means nodding yes, it behooves you to shrink the amount of language they would have to translate to make that happen. So every negative modifier, in my opinion, adds another dice roll to understanding. Because if you just say say don't do this, well, then by default, that means they can do literally anything else. Well, does it? That was my point.

I would argue yes. Yes. Okay. Unless you say don't do this. But people don't even. Keep going. I don't know if people are conscious of that. No.

It doesn't mean it still happens they're just not conscious of it well i consider like again consciousness a different conversation like by so aware that they made the leap like people like you can say something to someone they'll interpret it and they'll be i'll be like why did you take it that why are you doing that and they're like you said this and i'm like no it's not and then i have to explain to them where they made the leap and what you're saying is is well you also have to think about how you communicated it that set them up to take that leap so i would argue you could have just started with the explanation to begin with and avoided the hassle right yes i want to take you in the

back and fuck the shit out of you not i don't like you i love you maybe if like if i can tell you that you have an increased probability of somebody doing what you want if you tell them to do it right versus telling them to do something else and then getting a set over it yes like come on so how old's your daughter? You have a daughter? 16. And you're 31? Yes. Adopted. Oh, okay. Yes. Good mathematician, by the way. I mean that seriously.

Thank you. I consider myself one of the world's greatest mathematicians at the third grade level. And the reason why is because I'm always contextualizing and relativizing whatever the fuck that means meaning you no one would say anything to me um no no one would say to me there's a million people who work for the postal service and i wouldn't think of five other places where there's a million people in order to understand what a million is okay and i'm always doing simple math adding subtracting multiplying dividing i'm always in my head like your program. I wanted to know how much it costs a day. Just because I need context, I need relativity.

Now I see, oh, $17 a day. That's how much I spend on coffee beans so I can stay this high. Yeah, you can continue to frame things until you can frame it in a way where it relates to your previous experiences. A classical coaching therapeutic technique. to frame things until you can frame it in a way where it relates to your previous experiences, a classical like coaching therapeutic technique, probably the most, the most effective and the most used. How can I, how many different ways can I explain this until you can relate it to something else that happened to you? Yeah. And so what you, what you just described, somebody might call framing, how many different ways can I describe this and still keep the facts straight until it increases the probability of a behavior that helps me? So you're breaking down of like, whoa, 2,000 bucks or 1,500 bucks sounds like a lot. And that might create an aversion for

somebody. And if you say, well, 17 bucks a day, I can do that. The ivory towered a-hole might laugh at that person. But the reality is that this just has to do with relating it to a person's previous experience and you might end up doing a lot of people will do the wrong thing if they don't when they don't do that so for example someone will say the measles vaccine saved x amount of kids and so then you're like okay cool and so then you look in the 10 years prior to the release of the measles vaccine, no more than 500 kids died a year in the United States prior to the release. So then you start thinking, how many injections do they give before there's an accident where someone's injected with the wrong thing or a needle breaks off in someone?

How many accidental deaths are there by injections every year? And if that alone is 512 that happens to kids giving the measles vaccine, then all of a sudden you're like, well, shit. So 12 kids die every year to prevent measles from spreading. Those numbers aren't correct by the way, people, I just made that up to, to, but, but if you don't do that, public health concerns. Yeah. If you don't do that, you will, you will take unnecessary enemas.

Yeah. And you can also anxietize yourself if you have missing information. Right. And for that reason, we develop friendships with people that have different skill sets and different language patterns and different experiences and we discuss these things and i'll come out better for it accumulate wisdom i'll be sending you a survey um that i would like you to respond to telling me how your time was on the show it'll only take 15 to 20 hours to do okay now as long as i know ahead of time should we have a survey what if i had a yeah i just tell

everyone all my guests had great time that's all i just i and when i mean they i just call my mom i'll call my mom we get off she'll be like how was it like oh he's guy had a great time because my mom told me that this is my living room and my guests should have a good time in it excuse me wow i told one of my sons the other day he's really a duck and then he was hatched from an egg he loves it i love ducks my favorite animal by the way he's seven oh okay we're finished on this question before um i go okay before you go um is it true that ducks duck eggs have more protein than chicken eggs someone just told me that yesterday they said i got two ducks i said i thought you have 12 chickens i said yeah but ducks have more protein in their eggs uh a look up a bull thing if they have a bigger egg then presumably it has more protein in it all right do ducks normally

have a bigger egg than a chicken egg? Maybe. Another look up a bull. Look up a bull thing, frankly. If they existed as a frequented commodity food stuff, then I would probably have an answer for you just because of my, just because of putting myself around it. But like, look up a bull. If I remember correctly, they have quite large yolks uh but other than that i i would i would look at them this guy knows the difference between real

and not real but he doesn't know about a duck egg uh anyone who's watching this show who knows tyson fury if he's in the states training with the diaz camp or whatever. You have to hook these two up. You have to hook these two up. It would not be the first nasty fighter that Dr. Kashi has worked with. He has worked with some really, really violent human beings in order to help them with their great word. Violence of all types. Execution of their violence.

Mr. Kashi. Thank you very much. Thank you to paper street coffee for keeping me high the whole time guys uh i know this one's going to be so popular uh and i i know we didn't get to a lot so uh we will try to circle back around with the great trevor cashew