The Sevan Podcast - #557 - Alan Stein

Episode Date: August 22, 2022

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by card. Other conditions apply. Like when I was working at this NBA game, then Caleb pulls up the picture and we look cool. Well, I appreciate that, Caleb. Thanks for your service and thanks for your help on the podcast.

Bam, we're live. I am a better person for reading your book. No, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Listening to your book. My friend says I need to be accurate, precise in my honesty. I'm a better person for listening to your book. I listened to all of it in the last probably four days, except for the last 22 minutes of sustain your game and uh every podcast i did leading up to uh meeting you today i told the people who uh the listeners of this podcast my friends uh hey you got to listen to this book because because it is it's not every day that you come across something that like if you consume it you'll be better. I like Breaking Bad, but I'm not a better person for watching it.

I might be worse. Well, let me say how much that means to me, and I thank you tremendously. And I say in full humility, I'm a better person for writing it. The reason I write books is to help me improve in the exact material that I'm writing about. I write the book that I need to be reading myself. So I've struggled with stress, stagnation, and burnout at different times throughout my entire life and career. And I find it both liberating and somewhat therapeutic to kind of meet that head on and write about and speak about from stage

the things that I'm still working on. So I'm not coming from a place of mastery in any of this stuff, but I'm starting to figure some things out that I believe are putting me on the right path. And then I always want to share that with others. And anytime I hear feedback that, that that work is helpful, you have no idea how much that means to me. So thank you for making the time investment to listen to my voice for almost eight hours. It's like, um, I, uh, I made a post the other day on Instagram of me working out and I'm a 50 year old dude and I'm surrounded by the greatest, uh, athletes in the world. And so I never post pictures. I never post videos of myself working out. Why would I, when you could just, it would be like you posting videos of you taking jump shots, right jump shots right it's like dude why wouldn't you just take a picture of one of your

clients taking jump shots or video but dude when people saw me this fucking 50 year old schlep working out it like it meant something to people yes it's it's connective when when you can show those sides of yourself when in essence you can show some level of vulnerability when you can show those sides of yourself, when in essence you can show some level of vulnerability, when you can show that you have confidence and pride in who you are as a man at 50 years old, there's something very magnetic and attractive about that. And we both should probably do that more. It's been my experience that, you know, some of the players I've had an opportunity to work with, people put them on such an iconic pedestal that they don't seem real. They don't seem like they're human beings. They seem magical. And I think everyone knows you and I are very much human beings. I don't think anyone looks at either one of us as if we're immortal. So when we can show folks that, hey, this is what we're doing on a daily basis. This is what we're doing to try to

work towards self-actualization and improvement. I think it's a beautiful connective tissue and it's, I really admire you for doing that. And my sentiment was exactly like what you told me. People have no idea when they, when someone sends back to me, Hey, you did those a hundred burpees and you did it in, you know, 10 minutes. I want you to know I did it in nine minutes and 54 seconds. and you did it in, you know, 10 minutes, I want you to know, I did it in nine minutes and 54 seconds. They have no idea how happy I am that I was part of that cantagen. Like it's like, oh, you caught, you caught that disease. Like I'm, and that's how I feel about your book. Like it, um, it spread, it spread the, it's, it's spreading a good disease. Well, well, I appreciate that, that, uh, yeah. I mean, ultimately a quote that I've

all always lived by, but that has started to gain some traction. Cause. I mean, ultimately a quote that I've always lived by, but that has started to gain some traction because I've been saying it a little more frequently now is that a candle loses nothing by lighting another candle. And that's something that I really hold dear to my heart. And ultimately, if someone asks what I do, I'm in the business of lighting people's candles. I mean, in theory, I'm a keynote speaker. I'm an author. I'm a performance coach, but those are just different forms of the same thing. I'm trying to light people's candle. And that's why I love meeting people like you who are doing the same thing. I love having conversations like this because I'm confident that what we chat about today

will help light someone else's candle. And then I hope that they want to be a steward to pay that forward and light others. So when you make a post that says, I just did a hundred burpees in 10 minutes, um, you're inspiring, you're motivating, you're encouraging others to do the same. And that's, that's ultimately what lighting other people's candle is all about. So again, man, I really commend you and admire you and appreciate the work you do. You, your book comes at an interesting time. And I have to tell you that I'm really, um, do you have kids by any chance yet, Alan? I most certainly do. So I'm very amicably divorced. I've been divorced for seven years and my ex-wife and I get along great. We're good friends. We make great co-parents and we have 12 year old twin sons and a 10 year old daughter. Oh shit. You know,

I have twins. Oh, do you really? How old are yours? Yeah. I have twin five-year-old boys and I'm the flipped of yours. I have twin five-year-old boys and then an older seven-year-old boy. Oh my goodness. That is so awesome. Crazy. Why do you think you're amicably, uh, amicably divorced? That means that amicably means, uh, you guys are cool, right? It most certainly does. And it's, it means like you have Thanksgiving together and shit. We do. And it's- That means like you have Thanksgiving together and shit. We do. And it's rare that you hear those two words

in the same sentence because usually imicable and divorce usually don't collide. And well, the reason we do that is because we've both made the effort to do that. That we both realized that the relationship that we thought we would have as a marriage didn't quite pan out.

And we accept full responsibility for that. But we will always be linked because of our children and that, that, you know, I will always treat her with respect and civility and compassion. And she's made the decision to do the same. And that's been a game changer. And, you know, on the, on the broad spectrum of divorces, I do think ours was kind of on the easier end because we just realized we weren't a good fit for each other. There was no abuse. There was no infidelity. One of us wasn't the other one's love of their life. We got into something and realized we just weren't the right fit.

So I think that took some of the weight off of it. But it was still painful. It was still tough. I mean, anytime something doesn't quite work out the way that you would hope, there's a grieving period. So I don't mean to make it sound like it's always been super easy. We had our points of tension, but we always broke through that by saying, look, we chose to bring three human lives into this world. And the way that we can work together and collaborate and the way we treat each other is going to model that behavior for our children. And that's what's most important.

So we've both done a pretty good job of even when we were feeling tension and frustrated, putting our feelings aside, taking the higher road and always being respectful and civil. And now that's worked itself out where I consider her one of my closest friends. That's awesome. I want to show you guys a picture of the book before I go any further because I know this 90 minutes is going to blow by. This is the book. This is – and correct me if I'm wrong, Alan. This is his second book, Sustain Your Game.

The first one was Get Your Fucking Game Together. Or wait, what was it called? Raise Your Game. Raise Your Game. I knew it. I knew I had – that was my only criticism, the title of the first book. Maybe that'll be my third book. Raise Your Game, Sustain Your Game.

Are these your first two books ever? They are, yes. And I've enjoyed the process so much. And as I mentioned, it's so integral in my own growth and development that I will never put something on page or out in the world, unless I believe I have something worthy to say, and that it will add value. I don't want to be one of those kind of formulaic machines that every two years I put out a book, regardless of whether it's going to be quality. But along those same lines, I believe that if I'm continuing to grow and to stretch and push myself at the rate that I believe that I should be, then about every two to three years, I think I should have enough to say to warrant putting in

a book and whether the next one will complete the series and make it a trilogy or we'll go in a different direction. I don't know, but as long as I'm learning and growing and evolving, and I'm taking that material and finding ways to pay that forward and share that with others, then, then they'll absolutely be a third, fourth, and fifth book at some point. Caleb, can I bring you up for a second? Is that okay? No, okay. No, Caleb.

But he's back there, I promise you. So many doors opening. Why do you think that you have the skills to – you think that you have the skills to um what do you think the skills are to get along with um your uh the mother of your kids who do you think you learned those skills from and and to prioritize what's best i i'm perseverating on this a little bit because my parents are divorced and they get along we did all the christmases and thanksgivings together and and the the the other spouses were were it was all all welcome and i feel like it's taught me how to um i learned a lot from that yeah how did you how did you learn positive stuff of course yeah how did you how did you do you know where that comes from that

i mean i absolutely do maturity i guess or or or a lack of self to put something else ahead of you? That's part of it. You know, see, we're the reverse. So my parents have been married for almost 50 years still to this day, and her parents have been married for 50 years. So divorce was very foreign to both of us. And that's probably why it took a little longer for us to pull the trigger on the divorce because we didn't even really consciously think it was an option because that hadn't been modeled for us.

But the absolute game changer for me was when we started going in for some couples therapy and used our therapist as someone that could help kind of take some of the tension out of the air. I mean, as you can imagine, in the early stages of a breakup or separation or divorce, there's a lot of pointing fingers and blaming. And, you know, I remember, you know, very self-righteously going in there and saying, well, if she would do this or if she would stop doing this, then our marriage would be better. And thankfully, the therapist, I mean, she put me on blast and said, you don't need to worry about what she's doing or not doing. You got enough stuff on your side of the fence that you can focus on. And I'm very thankful that I had the humility to listen to her because there were previous times in my life that I would have, I would have not gone that path. I mean, I say this with full affection because I've,

I've reconciled with my previous self, you know, but in my younger years, I was, I was very unaware. I was very selfish. I very much lived a scarcity mentality. I very much blamed, complained, and made excuses when things didn't go my way. So many of the principles I live by now and perspectives that I use to guide my life philosophy are somewhat newfound over the last few years. I haven't always been this way. And at the time, I was doing the best I could with the tools I had, I have very many tools are very good tools. So the therapist was the one that said, look, you two got into this marriage and now you two need to navigate a way out of this marriage. And you need to do so in a way that's, that's going to be setting the example for your children. I mean, that's, that was really the, the, the big impetus was making sure that we were still providing through a co-parenting relationship, unconditional love and that for our, for our children. So the therapist really got me straight. I mean, I, I went every week for a couple of years and she served me plenty of pieces of humble pie and got me to realize that I had a major role, as did my ex, on how this was going to play out.

And that if we decided to be selfish and we decided to blame and complain and make excuses, that this could be very tenuous and could have a very negative effect on our children, or we could take the high road. And so I'm a huge fan of therapy. I still see a therapist regularly now because I believe it helps me. Oh, dude, don't you? Yeah. I would struggle to see a therapist because I would just be thinking about the money. I consider it the best investment I make.

And that's literally how I look at it. I mean, it's I look at the world through the lens of coaching. So it's funny because even though this person is a trained psychotherapist, I just kind of consider her my life coach because she's coaching me on this game of life. And I have a speaking coach. I have a writing coach, you know, my financial advisor, I call him my money coach. So I look at everything through the lens of coaching and I've always been a big believer in coaching. Um, and I, I, I'm okay with making the investment in these areas to these experts that can help me level up um my own game uh sean uh does this guy even lift bro come on look at

look at that physique look at are you kidding me yes yes come on let's get out of here hey i worked with the crossfit community for 15 years and I hate it when I fucking go somewhere. Someone's like, do you do CrossFit? I'm like, what the, what,

what? That's too funny. I love it. How dare you? How dare you? Yeah. Um, there are,

there are, would you call sustain your game? A self-help book? I think it can be categorized as that. It's interesting because. What are the other categories before you go down that road? Well, it's often listed in like leadership and business because you don't need to deal with stress, stagnation, and burnout is incredibly helpful in leadership and business.

But I always believe that everything starts at that self-help level. You know, that the first thing you can do to improve your team is improve yourself. You know, the first thing you can do to be a more influential and impactful leader is to work on the traits that you'd like to model for those that you lead. So yes, I think it's, it's a self-help book, but it's one that, that leaders in every organization should embrace because it will help them be more impactful and influential. There is a line in there that you say that I say a lot and I don't hear anyone else say, at least, I mean, fuck, it must have been some book I read in my 20s on Buddhism, but I see it everywhere I go and I can't tell people how true it is that we're all mirrors here

and i think people see it on some superficial level and they don't realize really what's going on for instance if i'm talking to you and i take a sip of coffee i'm not i'm telling you it's contagious i'm telling you alan pick up your cup of coffee and drink. When I tell you, when I light up a cigarette, I'm screaming to the whole world, it's okay to smoke, smoke. When I put on my COVID-19 mask, I'm screaming to the world, be terrified. There's something here to get you. And the lack of awareness of that mirroring that's going on, that actually there is no – I take it to an extreme. There is no Seval Matosian. There is no Allen Stein.

These are signifiers that we spend our – from the second we're born trying to maintain and hold together. It's like owning an RV or a boat. It's just in constant fucking flux. It's almost ridiculous that we try to hold our identities together until we die. That mirror idea, when you brought that up, I was like, I mean, you can unpack that into your next book. Absolutely. Well, I'm so glad you went in that direction.

And you're so right. I mean, you're going really, really deep there. But I mean, we're always broadcasting and we're always communicating. People make the mistake of thinking that our communication is simply spoken word. That's obviously a portion of it. And then, yes, we have our nonverbals, our facial expressions, our body language, our posture, our physicality and volume, all of these things that we can manipulate to communicate a different message. out in the world and you just hit it right on the head. The key is to be aware of what it is that we're broadcasting. Awareness is always the first step to improvement because you'll never fix

something you're oblivious to and you'll never improve something you're unaware of. So we have to be aware of the messages that we're putting out in the world. And you'll never fix something you're unaware of. Yeah. And you'll never improve something you're oblivious to. So awareness is always the key. So we have to know in those examples that you just gave, this is the message that I'm broadcasting out in the world. And then you just have to own that and be okay with that. And it's not for me to judge what other people's messages are.

That's for them to put out in the world. But I just want to make sure that I'm aware of and I'm doing the best I can to control the messages that I'm putting out because we don't want to send those mixed signals. You know, going back to parenting, you know, I don't really lecture my children. What I do is I model the behavior that I believe would be in their best interest to emulate. You know, I don't give my kids a PowerPoint presentation on the importance of being respectful. I simply navigate the world being as respectful to as many people consistently as I possibly can. And along those lines, I, you know, I'm fallible,

I'm flawed. I'm a human being. I, I'm not batting a thousand and I'll never be perfect. So when I lecture them, sometimes I knew it. Well, when I do make a mistake, when I do make a mistake, I lean into that and I let my kids know I messed up here. I should have done this differently. I could have said this differently, but I own it. I'm not blaming, complaining, making excuses or deflecting. This is an opportunity for me to grow. It's a repetition for me to learn from this and to move forward. So none of this is about perfection.

To me, it's all about incremental progress. And can we stop worrying about where we are in the moment and focus more on the direction at which we're headed? So, as I said before, I'm not coming from a place of mastery with anything that I share on page or on stage, but I'm slowly getting better in each of these areas more consistently. And for that, I'm, I'm very, very grateful. That is the hard part. Um, uh, I had someone on recently, so had someone on recently. So I have a strong stance on added sugar, very strong stance on added sugar. I think that added sugar is at the core that the added sugar and both parents not being involved in kids' lives, I think is the strongest correlate

for everything. Going to prison, getting cancer getting cancer being overweight not knowing how to read um anything all all of it type 2 diabetes alzheimer's those are the correlates there there's no skin color there's no that shit's all bullshit like anyway uh and yet i would feed my kids sugar but i wouldn't show the world so so yesterday i took my kids i'm in newport beach and there's a playground feed my kids sugar, but I wouldn't show the world. So yesterday, I took my kids. I'm in Newport Beach, and there's a playground. And my kids said, hey, how many times do I have to circle this playground to get some ice cream? And I said, five times.

And it's like a mile and a fucking half. And they all did it. And I'm like, wow. And so I bought them ice cream. But I would never show that on my instagram a matter of fact i might take the time and some people would say this would be a hypocrite to make a post about why you shouldn't do that and yet some of my friends will call me out and be like hey you're being fake interesting and it's an interesting it's it's an interesting place to be to try to juggle but but now you're writing a book on basically there's

tools in here into how to become enlightened and what do i mean enlightened to to live a fulfilled and powerful life where energy just passes through you in abundance um and yet people want to project onto you that you uh allen stein must also you you must know this if you're writing about it. Do you ever get yourself caught? Like you're trying to be this person. Maybe you're not like you're skipping ahead and faking being enlightened before. Maybe you went through the steps because you wrote the book. Like you feel this pressure. I do feel a pressure. I feel an immense pressure to live my life in alignment with what I share in my books and what I share in my keynotes. And because I don't think what you just did is hypocritical and we can unpack that. I do think if I was saying

something on stage and then two hours later, someone saw me behaving in a way that was the exact opposite of that, that would be hypocritical. That would be me saying, this is the way that you all need to behave, but I'm going to behave differently. So I think those are actually two different scenarios. So that's one of the reasons I love the work that I get a chance to do is it holds me to the highest level of accountability. Because one of my biggest fears in life, and this is more from a 30,000 foot view. I don't mean fear like it keeps me up at night, but along the lines of someone will see me behaving in a way that is not congruent with what they read in my book, or someone will see me behaving in a way that is not in alignment

with what I just shared during a keynote. So I use these things to hold myself to a very high level of accountability. But every opportunity I get, whether it's in an awesome conversation like this, or it's on stage or on page, I let people know I'm not claiming to be an expert. I'm not claiming to be a guru. I have not mastered this stuff, but I'm on the path. And I figured some things out, you know, over the course of my life that are working, they're moving me in the right direction. They're moving me closer towards fulfillment and self-actualization. So all I'm doing is sharing those things. I'm not here to tell

anyone how to live their lives. I'm simply sharing and providing a mirror for the things that I'm doing that have been, that have been working. And to me, that's, that's all I can do. I mean, I plan on being on this journey for the rest of my life. I don't think I'm ever going to reach that, that summit. You know, I actually love the fact that I will be a work in progress and under construction for the rest of my life because I'm really enjoying the pursuit. I'm enjoying the process. I'm not too concerned with the destination. And I'm going to make plenty of mistakes. But can I learn from them? Can I make amends when appropriate? And then can I move to the next place?

So I also don't want to keep living in the past. I want to make sure that I'm constantly going in the direction that I'm aiming for. Where were you born? Here, right outside of Washington, D.C., in a suburb of Maryland, which is where I currently reside. And your parents were school teachers? They were. Yeah. My mom was a first grade teacher for 30 years. My father started as a teacher and then became an administrator and a middle school principal. But they both did that for 30 years. Uh, they retired 20 years ago and moved down to Myrtle beach, South Carolina. Interesting. Um, and how, how old, how old are you? Uh, I'm 46. I'll be 47 in January. And, um, uh, how are your, um, how are your parents processing, uh, the, um, state of the world now,

especially being school teachers, are they, are they tripping or are they just like, yeah, fuck, we went through Vietnam. last, you know, couple of years in particular, but, you know, over the last few decades and how much the world has changed. I mean, they've, they've been retired for 20 years. So, you know, when they were in the throes of being teachers, that there wasn't the internet, there wasn't social media. There's so many things that have changed with young people, you know, and, and so they have, and as do I, a tremendous amount of empathy and compassion for teachers. They understood that when certain areas, and our area here in DC was incredibly strict and rigid during the pandemic. I mean, my kids did virtual schooling for a year and a half, almost two years. And yeah, but we had empathy and compassion for the teachers. We understood that wasn't their decision. That was what someone was telling them they had to do. And, you know, it's hard enough to keep the attention of 30 young people when you're in person in a classroom. Imagine trying

to do that via technology and screens and virtual. I mean, it was, it was really hard. So it, you know, the pandemic, when, when they decided to, to do things virtually, it was really hard for the teachers. It was really hard for the kids to do things virtually, it was really hard for the teachers. It was really hard for the kids themselves. You know, it was really hard for the parents, especially working parents who now have young kids that have to stay home to do school. I mean, the whole thing was a mess. And, you know, when you can step aside and view it that way, hopefully it levels up your empathy and compassion that everybody's kind of struggling with this, that this is no one's preference. And I think that was kind of their their view on it. Someone said this to me recently, I wish I could remember who, but the guest I had on the show that we have to remember each person's on their own journey.

And even if they're like way, way off from from our perspective and they're just like plowing in the wrong direction uh even if it's to self-hurt um it's it's their it's their journey it's oh you know who it was it was sean zimmer do you know who that is i don't know he's a freedom fighter out of uh canada okay he's basically one of these guys in canada who's like hey i'm not gonna wear the mask i'm gonna i'm gonna hold the workouts in my backyard fuck you and and when he started when the pandemic started he was like the the hyper masculine man um like let's let's fight fight the government and he's in this time he's transformed to a um he has a different approach now he has a different approach now. He has a more, uh, you know, a Dalai Lama, uh, approach is his more, you know what I mean? Like, or, or a Taoist approach, sit in the center and let those who are on their own path, you know, do as they do. You see, it's kind of like what

you're saying, set, be the example you want to be and don't let stop lecturing people. Yeah. Well, you know, to that point, I'm so glad you brought that up. I look forward to learning more about him and his approach and some of the changes he's made. It's so polar, right? Before it was, I'll beat the fuck out of you. Now it's like, brother, be blessed on your journey. Yeah. Well, similar to that, mine, you know, I used to very easily fall to the temptation of making judgments about others, even though I had very limited information and then making assumptions about others based on those judgments. And what I've tried to rewire myself to do now, and some people think this is naive, but it's actually been a construct that I found very helpful. I make the assumption that every single human being walking the planet is

doing the best they can with their level of awareness and the tools that they have. And when I see someone doing something that maybe I consider foolish or ridiculous, they're doing it because they don't have the awareness and they don't have the tools. They're still doing the best they can. And that's all that I'm trying to do in this life. I don't have all of the answers either. I'm trying to do the best I can with what I have where I am. And that's all that I'm trying to do in this life. I don't have all of the answers either. I'm trying to do the best I can with what I have, where I am. And that's what everybody else is doing. And it's not my place to judge or make assumptions or criticize other people on their path. As I just said, in the spirit of vulnerability, you know, I was very different 10 years ago at 36, 20 years ago at 26, certainly different at 16. So even me now can look back on my previous self

and could easily make judgments about some of the, the, you know, poor decisions I made or foolish ways I was looking at life. But at that time I was doing the best I could, and that's all I'm doing now. And if, if I come back five or 10 years later and join you again on this podcast, and we have another conversation, I'm hoping I will have evolved even further then. And I'll be able to look at some of the things that I'm doing presently as kind of archaic and that I've leveled up from there. So I want to make sure that I'm giving people the benefit of the doubt that they're doing the best that they can. And I also recognize that I see the world through a very tainted, you know, and biased lens based on where I grew up based on, you know, I mean, just think of you and I are approximately the same age,

but, but just think how different we are that if we grew up on different coasts and you said you were raised by amicably divorced parents, I was raised by two married parents. Um, we, we probably have a variety of different beliefs that were taught to us when we were young. We have different friends. You and I may consume different content on social media. There's a variety of different beliefs that were taught to us when we were young. We have different friends. You and I may consume different content on social media. There's a lot of things. Imagine people born. Armenian was my first language.

I didn't even speak English. So my whole reality was different. So we have a massive cultural difference. So with all of that being said, why would I be surprised if you and I view a specific issue differently? be surprised if you and I view a specific issue differently. In fact, it'd be more surprising if you and I were in perfect alignment with everything that we thought, considering that we came from very different vantage points. So what I try to do now, instead of judging or criticizing what other people think or do, I try to lean in with fascination and curiosity and say, man, I want to learn more about why you believe what you believe. I want to learn why that's how you feel things

should be done and do it without a lens of judgment and just do it to learn. So I found that in this very divisive world that we live in, if you give people the benefit of the doubt and believe they're doing their best, even if their best isn't very good, it's still their best. And you get curious and fascinated by why people do the things that they do. So instead of being judgmental or critical, get curious and fascinated. It's a great connective tissue. And then if you add that with a level of vulnerability that says, you know, if I grew up the exact way that you grew up in the Armenian culture, I grew up on the West Coast. I had to learn a new language. My parents were divorced. If I had gone through everything that you've gone through, I would probably see the world exactly the way that

you see it right now. It's very arrogant or self-righteous to think, well, everyone should view the world the way I do, given they have different information. So to me, learning to let go of those things over these last few years in particular has been really helpful in my ability to hopefully make better connections with people there i've read that in some book too you know as a young aspiring maybe buddhist in my 20s uh if everything that happened to that person over there had happened to you you would be that person and when you look at these fucking crazy characters like Hitler, you're like, holy fuck. If everything that would have happened to Sevan Matosian that happened to Hitler, he'd be fucking Hitler. And it's like, what the fuck? Like these are these are these are not comfortable places to go. But but hopefully from there, there is empathy, like you're saying, or compassion or something or, or something that, you know, allows, uh,

some sort of evolution. Absolutely. And this doesn't mean that, that we, uh, condone or appropriate certain behaviors. It just simply means that we have the understanding, as you just said, with empathy and compassion that, yeah, if, if you hear somebody saying something really ridiculous and foolish, if you've walked every step in their shoes, you would be saying the exact same foolish and ridiculous thing they're saying right then. And I think the acknowledgement of that is what can help draw us in. I would like to propose an idea to you. Please. You just used the word cultural. And in this country, there are some words that are being used. I believe that like the great Lao Tzu says in the Tao Te Ching, naming is the origin of all particular things.

And so in the most superficial sense, I point to a chair and I call it a chair, and now you and I both see that this is a chair. I pick it up and I break it over some dude's head and i'm like this is the ultimate weapon i mean like this thing that i exercise with that's a mace i spent fucking 60 bucks on it because someone told me it's a piece of exercise equipment how dumb am i i know this thing's made for fucking slaying fucking bears but but you know what i mean or crossfitters will buy anything that's heavy look here's especially designed rock for 800 that will make you strong. I mean – yeah, thank you. The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal name. The unnameable is the eternally real. of all particular things when i see um uh people refer to uh they say hey we you should have diversity in gender and in race i hear a sleepy i i hear that's a sleeping person talking it's a very it's an ignorant sleeping person talking and here's why they're using race to categorize the world is fucking insane. I've filmed movies in 100 different countries. I've filmed famine on three different continents.

There is no cultural similarity that screams out at you between the melanated people of the United States and the melanated people of the African continent. So when we say – like when a company says, hey, we should hire someone, we need a gay, black guy who's under 4 foot seven to fit to get some it to me it's it is a um it is the most horrible way to look at life if you want to hire someone based on some cultural significance that they can bring i want to hire a guy um who uh worked in india in a town that was only one square mile but but had 30 million people, because I think he brings an understanding to impacted work environments. I get it. But to call all, all black people the same based on their skin color and say, we need to hire someone by their race is, I don't know what the fuck has happened to this world. I want to, all those people who say that, I want to send them to Africa and be like, you're telling me that because of the skin color, you think that these two people are culturally the same?

The Armenians in Armenia are nothing like the fucking Armenians in Beirut, Lebanon. They're nothing like each other. We don't even speak the same language. And I'm struggling with that. Not struggling with that. Not struggling with it. I mean, I'm invigorated by it to plant my flag there and unfuck people. And then also the word gender. I have no issue with the word gender, but I'm 50 years old and I don't have a gender.

I don't come. I have a sex. It's not. I dress my boys in. And I talk about this endlessly on the show. I dress my boys in – and I talk about this endlessly on the show. I dress my boys in girls' black tights and what Mexicans call affectionately white feeders because that's what Baryshnikov dressed as. And my mom thought Baryshnikov was a fucking stud.

But my friends think I'm trying to be progressive Berkeley kid. That's where I was born and try to embrace dressing. I'm like, girls, fuck that. That's a fucking – so there's all of these i when you said that word cultural like that's and another thing is just genders in the imagination and sex is is in this outside world and so when i see these things there he is there he is in his girls amazon um leggings um when i um and people are, you need to cut their hair. People think they're girls. I don't care.

People thought I was a girl until I was 12. Who gives a fuck? Let them deal with that shit. But we've just conflated all of these ideas. And so I just – I would like to propose to you that we use the word cultural instead of maybe race. Like let's be diverse and hire a wide variety of cultures, because then we're including black people from all over the globe. And we're including white people from all over the globe. And, and then I would like to propose that we use sex where sex

is appropriate and gender where gender is appropriate because there's infinite genders, but only two sexes. Yeah. Sorry that I took over the show. Are you the guest or am I the guest? Either one. Man, I can see your passion. I'm going to tie this to LeBron. Careful. I'm luring you in, Mr. Allenstein. Let me unpack a little bit of that from my perspective. When I used the word cultural earlier, I was also using it synonymous with certain customs, you know, that you being of Armenian descent, you may have different customs than maybe I was, you know, that I grew up with. You know, if you and I were to go to Spain, you know, they take a two-hour siesta to eat lunch and there's wine and nobody works for those two hours.

That is a part of their culture and their custom to do that. It's very different than how we are here. You know, here people shovel food in their mouth for 15 minutes during half a lunch break just so they can keep working. So I was just kind of referencing that. A couple of the things. But I like it. I like it, by the way. I like culture.

And you just said it right there. The customs of people just because of their skin color all over the globe is really, I mean, that's a really poor way to categorize people using race as opposed to customs and culture. Understood. I also recognize that every single word, and I'll just say the English language because it's the only language that I speak, carries an emotional connotation. That you and I can both hear linguistically the exact same word, but have very different feelings on what that word actually means. And that's where I think we get into some of these gray areas. So when you hear words like culture or race or gender, they make you feel something differently than they make someone else feel. And this goes back to that reminder,

you know, a couple of things. One, we don't see the world as it is. We see the world as we are. And that goes back to us. We all see the world through, you know, somewhat of a tainted bias. And even you and I having this delightful conversation, we're having a conversation, but your perspective of it may be different than mine. So we have your truth and then we have my truth. Neither one of us knows or can see the absolute truth, but we're seeing it through our own lens. I'm with you that we should be incredibly embracing of a variety of different cultures and customs, because ultimately when we talk, when I hear the word diversity, it all comes down to diversity of thought and diversity of perspective. Thank you.

And I do acknowledge that when someone is raised in a different area, in a different culture, with different customs, they are going to have a very different perspective than I have. And I want to be inclusive of that because I want to learn from that. And that's why I think that leaders should encourage a diverse group of people in their organizations so that you can get as many different vantage points as possible. Now, where we could have a very interesting discussion would be, and it's okay if you and I don't see completely eye to eye on that, do I believe that an African-American that grew up here in the United States would have a different view of things than I would have? Would they see the world differently based on how they were treated because of their that grew up here in the United States would have a different view of things than I would have.

Like, would they see the world differently based on how they were treated because of their skin color? And my guess would be there's a good chance that that is true. It's not the only reason that they would see the world differently, but it could be a reason that the way they've interacted and navigated this world based on their skin color and the way people have treated them, they probably see things differently than I do and the way that I've navigated it with my skin color. But where we have to be careful, and this is what I think you said so brilliantly, we can't just make that automatic assumption. We can't just categorize and say that everyone that is of this skin color or everyone that is of this gender, then we're being very confining. We're boxing

people in. So I know for me, I want to surround myself with as many diverse perspectives and opinions as I can. And in order to do that, I probably have to step outside of making sure that everyone around me is not a middle-aged straight white male, because if I'm only surrounded by middle-aged straight white males, there's a higher percentage chance that they will see the world similar to the way that I do. So that's when I want to step outside of that. I certainly understand and can empathize. Or you shouldn't surround yourself from only African-Americans. You should surround yourself around melanated people of Uganda. Everywhere. I mean, anyone that has a different view than I have on the world, I want to be open to learning from them and listening to what they

have. And do I believe that a, a female is going to grow up with different experiences than me as a male? Yes, I do believe that. So I want to be around different people and, you know, we can talk about race and ethnicity. We can talk about sex or gender. We can talk about age. We can talk about background. We can talk about geography. I mean, I think someone that grew up in the heart of the Bible belt versus grew up in the Bay area has probably very different values and perspectives because of what was implanted in them when they were really, really young. So you could still have two middle-aged, straight white males. One of them grew up in San Francisco. One of them grew up in Mississippi.

They're going to have very different views on the world. And I want to welcome both of them. So to me, I try not to look at diversity as these siloed compartments based on some of these boxes we can check, but rather diversity of opinion. But in order to do that, I have to step outside of people that walk, talk and look and act like me and learn from some of these different cultures and customs and different vantage points. God, the people in the comments are really giving me an ass whooping. Let me see. Let me show you this one. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. This one's great. Mr. Burns, Mr. Burns, I'm going to find you. Uh, there's three truths, Oh, yeah. Yeah. This one's great. Mr. Burns, I'm guessing that's not planned that's a he he didn't he doesn't practice

that like he practices his jump shot that's a kind of an explosion of energy like he's this it's the bullet after it leaves the gun it's's hit its target, and now it's like – that's him losing control, right? He has a moment to let off steam, right? And when Jesus is on the cross – I think I'm so clever for bringing this one up. I'm not a religious guy, but when Jesus is the cross and he says, forgive them for the, what does it say? So, Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.

He wasn't like, when they put me up on the cross, I'm dropping this bomb. It just came out of him. How about when Muhammad Ali did the, um, did the, uh, sting like a butterfly? Did he practice that? That's a great question. I mean, it's, I think, well, thank you. Finally, 43 minutes in and I got you to finally say it. Thank you.

I think what we're trying to figure out is, you know, I think some of the examples you're using, I don't think these things are premeditated. I don't think they're formulaic. I think they are an accumulation of all of the preparation and everything that's come before that. And then their ability to just simply be present and let things flow through them. Either it's something that's spoken or something like Michael Jordan tongue. Yeah, I my guess would be, yeah, I don't know the answer to that. I mean, I do know that Muhammad Ali leaned into and embraced the showmanship of being a boxer. He understood that it was more than just being good with your hands in the ring that, that, that he almost created a character, if you will, right. He knew would create that type of, of hype. But he was very eloquently

spoken and he has so many really amazing one-liners and things that he said and incredible sound bites. Yeah. I don't know if that one was something he had practiced and rehearsed or if it just kind of came out of him in the moment. It's a good question. Do you remember when conor mcgregor won his second belt i don't know if you're a ufc fan yeah and he said there was a line he walks up there and he's got the mic and he says something along the lines i was in the back starting a lot of fights i've been talking shit to a lot of people i talked to shit to dana and i just want to say that i apologize to absolutely nobody, you know? Well, you know what I, here's the thing. Is that planned? Well, it can also be a little bit of both.

You know, I'm a huge fan and student of standup comedy. Like I love standup comedy. Certainly I like to laugh, but as a keynote speaker, as a professional orator, I believe that standup comedy is one of the purest and rawest forms of spoken word. And I'm fascinated, you'm fascinated by that craft. And a couple of things.

One, the best stand-up comedians in the world make something on stage that appears to be spontaneous and impromptu, but they have actually practiced that and rehearsed that to the point that that's the reason it looks that way. You think that they accidentally tripped over the cord and then made a joke about it. And that just happened in the moment, but they actually practice that and set that up because that was part of the joke. And same thing with hecklers. You know, I think most standup comedians have had several responses to hecklers ready in their holster. And then when someone says something, they just riff on it real quick. It appears they just came up with it in the moment, but they have this, this mental Rolodex of comebacks that if someone says this, I'm going to zing them with this. If someone will,

how about Will Smith? Was that premeditated? No, I do not think that was, that was an accident. That was an incredibly poor decision in the moment. But but it's an interesting one because, I mean, he had 30 seconds. To unchain, you know, to change his mind and to not follow through with that, I mean, it took the you mean like the you mean like the walk? Yeah, absolutely. So that, you know, yeah, I don't. Yeah, that one is a fascinating one because there was a little bit of time in between those things. a fascinating one because there was a little bit of time in between those things. But, uh, what if it was planned? What if it was on purpose? I, and I don't have an opinion on it either way. If I had to bet a million bucks, I would, I would side with you. I would say it wasn't planned, but, but if it was planned, it would be kind of, it would be kind of cool. Like on April fools. One time, my wife told me she was pregnant and she kept me going for 30 minutes.

And I really, it was like i was on a free acid trip without the brain damage i was like holy like i had to restructure my whole life for fucking 30 minutes she goes i'm just joking oh that's hilarious yeah it was amazing it was it was it was like i how many times in life do you get to go back yeah i got to go back 30 minutes yeah i got to not have a kid for a second it was crazy that was nice of her to let you off the hook for in 30 minutes she could have kept that ruse going the entire day or nine months yeah it would be okay if it was a joke right i mean what would you have thought of it if it was a joke, right? I mean, what would you have thought of it if it was a joke?

The Will Smith? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when I, I did not watch it live. I don't watch those shows. The next morning when I, when I saw it, a clip of it, my first reaction was, I did think it was staged. I mean, I just, there, there wasn't a world, there wasn't a reality where I could conceptualize Will Smith, who for the most part has been incredibly affable and likable has been Mr. All American has, you know, his movies. Absolutely. And, and to the best of my knowledge has had an impeccable reputation for having really

good judgment. Um, I didn't, I could not conceptualize a reality where he would do something like that. But then the, the more that, that I started seeing clips and hearing some commentary on it realized that, yeah, that was just something that he do something like that. But then the more that I started seeing clips and hearing some commentary on it, realized that, yeah, that was just something that he did in the moment. But yeah. And Chris Rock, how about how he handled it? Well, that was the other thing. He handled it with such a level of poise. That was the other reason that I kind of thought it was staged because part of me thought, you know, he would have turned around and swung right back if that was real, but that speaks to his level of poise and composure and what a standup guy he is. And, you know, the, the real interesting part, I think of this discussion is around forgetting and forgiveness.

You know, if we can acknowledge that prior to that, Will Smith has had an impeccable reputation and then he has a really awful lapse of judgment. Look, what should be the societal consequence of that? Obviously, there are immediate consequences. He's barred from the Academy for a certain number of years and so forth. I'm sure for a couple of years, casting agents and directors aren't going to want to touch him because of the way society feels. But on what level do we allow people to make mistakes, allow them to make amends and learn from them? And then do we move on? Like, should he have a scarlet letter on his chest for the rest of his life? Or should we as a society say, hey man, you did a really dumb thing.

You acknowledge that it's dumb and you're hopefully not going to do that again. And so, who knows? I find these types of things fascinating. I think we live in a society, this cancel culture society though, that loves to keep looking backwards and saying, you know, hey, you said that on Twitter 10 years ago. Well, yeah, I was a different man 10 years ago. My beliefs have changed. I've grown. I've apologized for that. I don't say that thing anymore. I would like to see us be a little more forgiving and forgetful and give people space and grace to learn and grow and evolve. I mean, I'm thankful that the vast majority of really dumb things I said and really dumb things I did were prior to social media. So these things were never documented, but I have high empathy for people that are growing up now, like our children,

where that is not the case. And I let my children know that, that, you know, if you put something online, it's going to have a digital footprint forever and that could really haunt you. So, you know, have very high discernment and be very careful with what you choose to put out into the world. Um, going back to the Will Smith, uh, Chris Rock thing. Yeah, I I'm, I'm huge into, to, to accepting people for who they are and letting them make amends you know like like the friend who who who you catch stealing your bag of weed in college or the people who don't pay you back thousands of dollars it's like i it's it's on them i'm not i don't i i i don't lend them money again but i but i i don't know hatred for you at all like like

my our friend i played frisbee with you for four years now i'm going to cancel the friendship because you didn't pay me back a thousand dollars you owe me sorry i've invested way too much frisbee time with you to let it go but if another thing is is the way the way will smith hit him like um if my wife gets angry at me and she hits me she her her hit has like no follow-through she swings with a punch she opens her hands and pulls back as it hits it almost it's like it feels good and i was like dude you have you have like you like her desire is so evident there's no desire to do anything inflict harm there was no there was no um there was no desire this is the guy

that played fucking ollie there was no desire to fucking hurt Chris Rock. And then on the other hand, and you talk about this in your book, Cultivating Awareness of Awareness, Chris Rock's line – the book is called Sustain Your Game, by the way. It's his second book, and you can read it without reading the first book, although I am going to go back and read the first book now, Raise Your Game. Chris Rock says, i was just slapped by will smith like his like we got to hear his inner voice and i was like this is fucking amazing yeah i was it was like a moment of um i just loved it i i just loved that he said that well so here's no me too and here's where my mind. This goes back to something I said previously about the fact that we, we have very little information on what's going on on the other side of the fence. Yet we, we try to make judgments and assumptions based on that.

You know, we have no idea what had been brewing in Will Smith's mind or life leading up to that exact moment. You know, we have no idea the exact state of his marriage, you know, where he and Jada in kind of a difficult spot, you know, we have no idea. Now we know what we read in headlines and we know what the paparazzi tells us, but we don't actually know what was going on. And, you know, for a guy that has been that likable

and affable for his entire career, you know, there can be some deep-seated pain and insecurity inside. And it just reached this boiling point. And what I thought was a fairly innocuous comment that folks in those positions make certainly didn't warrant what happened, but that could have been the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. And in that moment, he thought that was the best resolution.

It's very easy for all of us sitting in the cheap seats to go whoa that was not the best decision that was not the best resolution but that goes back to people are doing the best they can with what they have in that moment I think that that's he felt I need to defend my wife's honor and this is the best way to do it and yeah I mean I think it was incredibly poor decision. I think there are going to be consequences. He's going to have to pay for that. But I just know that there's so much that happens behind the curtain during the unseen hours that that leads us to that point.

And that's the part where I think we should always have some additional empathy, compassion, forgiveness when people make bad decisions. And this is not condoning poor behavior. And this is not saying that people should not have to pay consequences for bad behavior. I mean, I'm not that Pollyanna where I think everyone should always be in a circle holding hands and singing. But I think as a society, we skew too far in one direction of not allowing forgiveness, not allowing for growth. You know, I still like Will Smith. I'll still watch his movies.

I hope that someone gives him a chance to get back on there. And I like I like Chris Rock even. I still like Will Smith and I like Chris Rock even more for how he handled it. Agreed. Hundred percent. He took the opportunity and made the best of it. But did he? His stock grew.

Yeah. I'd let Will Smith smack me like that. didn't put on like another 100 youtube subscribers well even and the other interesting part i mean think of how many people have been critical of the academy in general for saying he went on stage and slapped chris rock and then you let him go back to his seat and finish watching the awards like you guys should have done something different but again the people that make that decision this was something brand new to them. This was something that had been unprecedented. They didn't know exactly what was the best course of action. You know, do we remove him from the premises and create this big brouhaha or do we just kind of quietly

let it diffuse? They didn't know. So even if in hindsight, they go back and say, you know what, we probably should have done something different in that moment with the information they had, they did what they thought was best. And it's always easy for people to criticize after the fact when you have more information. So this is where I think we have to brew. Ha ha. There you go. Look at that. Noisy and overexcited reaction or response to something. Yes, I picked the perfect word. Look at that vernacular.

So that's where I just think we need to be a little bit more forgiving in general. And this very sensitive cancel culturist society that we've been heading towards for the last few years, I think, is dangerous in that regard. I actually think it lessens humanity. It doesn't strengthen it um i'm going to say something that's a sweeping generalization and i'm uh and i understand that and i'm totally open to you saying hey fuck off it's not like that um i see these great athletes and and movie stars, especially people in the NBA and the NFL who know the – who've embodied the elements that are spoken about in your book, sustain the game.

Oh, that's highly manipulative. Now I'm trying to manipulate you. I'm trying to lure you in, Alan. They've embodied – but truth, it's truth. at you. I'm trying to lure you in, Alan. But truth, it's truth. They've embodied the characteristics that are in your book that keep someone focused on what's important to them and their goals that will allow them to leave a fulfilled and happy life. And yet, from when they get there, When they get there, they preach and support the victocracy, a victim mindset, even though they didn't use that mindset to get to where they were. They may have leveraged it, but they didn't use it.

There's a difference. They may have allowed their ego to leverage it. I'm the Jewish kid, and everyone hates Jews. And so therefore I'm going to work harder. But they know that they know that that wasn't their self-belief of who they were. And yet they there's a I just feel I feel that and I feel that really coming from the basketball community, it's in superstars like, like the rock, um, LeBron James. I see, um, not only, uh, poison coming from their mouths, but then peddling poison to, to society. And how, how do they, how does that happen? Is that the same way as like you wrote this book and you, you don't live it perfectly it perfectly, but it's sort of your manual. Well, can you provide a little more clarity and context? Sure. Okay. Don't be so ambiguous. You want me to give you an example?

Yes, either from The Rock or LeBron. What is something you think that they're saying that is poisonous to society? Okay, so I'll start with like on the physical realm. We have LeBron selling Sprite and yet identifying with being a black man. And the leading cause of all – pretty much everything going on in the black community would be a massive change, and not just people with black skin in the United States, but everyone, is the eating of sugar. in in the united states but everyone is the um uh eating of sugar so so um while the pandemic's going on they're saying that this is happening to people because of their black or this is happening to people because they're poor when you have some and lebron's pushing that narrative forward and yet he's peddling sprite to kids or or the rock is selling energy drinks tequila and ice cream.

He launched three new companies, and he's half black, half Samoan, the most susceptible fucking people. If you want to categorize the people by color and if you want to do that. I'm not even saying that's the right thing to do. But they do that, and then they push that. Or when – there's something in LeBron that transcended whatever, whatever that comfortable narrative is that people want to say, the poor Jewish kid, the poor black kid, you're treated poorly. And yet they transcended it. And now they're still sharing that, that mindset. I'm not giving you, I'm not giving you an example. No, you are. And here's my thought on it. First of all,

even if you and I may view certain perspectives differently, I really have a tremendous amount of respect and admiration for how strong your convictions are. And clearly, and you started the show with this, that the addition of unnecessary, unrefined sugars is a massive poison to every aspect of our lives. But you have to keep in mind that is, that is your truth. That is your perspective. That is the way that you view it. Yes, sir. Okay. Fair. LeBron and The Rock may not share your distaste for the additional sugar. Now, I don't think- Or the perspective, even if it's wrong, that that's even a problem. Like, oh, a little Sprite moderation is fine. No big deal. Yes. And because they have a different

level of awareness and a different perspective than you do, they might not view it as the poison that you do. Where this raises a very interesting discussion, and I would love your thoughts on it, because I actually had this talk with a colleague the other day. They said, Alan, is there any group that you would not go and speak to if Marlboro, and I am not a smoker, asked me to come give a keynote at their annual conference, or let's just say a soft drink. I don't drink soda, but I've done work for Pepsi before and have another speaking engagement coming up for Pepsi that I'm very proud of. And they say, well, how can you go speak to a group

that has a product that you don't use yourself. And I said, because I'm not championing the product. I'm there to pour into people. I believe in people. And I've met people that do work at Pepsi that are some of the best human beings that I've ever met. And I'm there to support them and empower them and give them the tools to lead a better life. So I'm not judging someone based on what it is they sell or the products that they use. So for me, I can take a step back and say, everyone has the right to make their own choice. And if someone chooses to smoke cigarettes or chooses to drink soda, that is their right. And I'm not in any position to judge or criticize them. I may abstain from certain things and that's my right as well. So I think from a holistic view, um, and in my perspective, LeBron is not selling his soul

saying, you know, I know this is poisoning the world, but it's allowing me to put an extra $20 million in my bank account. I don't believe that's his perspective. I don't know that he views that through the same lens that you do, if that makes sense. Right. Totally. And the Williams sisters, the same lens that you do if that makes sense right totally and the williams sisters the same way pushing mcdonald's um it's but but here's so when when i was working at a crossfit inc in the in the early days um we signed a 350 million dollar deal i think that's what is about what it was with a company called reebok the shoe guys of course and um they within a month of let's say of signing that deal with them they released a shoe

saying that this shoe would would make your butt um get in better shape because of the way the sole was shaped i'm wearing the owner of those shoes right now. Show me your butt. And the owner of CrossFit, Greg Glassman, said, you guys are fucking idiots for doing that. What a fucking lie. And Reebok got angry. Here, the slimming shoes, yes. And the owners of Reebok got angry and the executives. And Greg goes, hey, dude, you didn't buy – no one can buy my mouth to keep my mouth shut.

Nobody. I will take money from fucking Marlboro, but you won't – but I will also with one hand take your money and you can – and then the other hand tell you this shit will kill you. There's no amount of money you can pay me to not tell the truth. And I really – I admire that. I think – I'm just adding another perspective. What you're saying, I think it's okay for you to go speak to Pepsi. I would go speak to Pepsi. And I don't judge you for drinking Pepsi.

I'm not against – i believe in free markets pepsi should sell sell sell like fuck sell the shit out of it get rich so but but on one hand i see lebron and these other people trying to be like these um black lives matter and these bastions and beacons of light and give direction while on the other hand, uh, you know, um, poisoning the fertile ground that, that needs love and nurturing. And I'm just, I'm just, how do they reconcile that? Well, no, I, and this is fascinating. I'm actually excited. We're, we're diving into this and going in this direction. You know, I, what I think is often underplayed and we'll just use LeBron as an example, cause I do have some, some personal experience with the people that have been around him and him. He is a very philanthropic,

philanthropic, excuse me. And does a tremendous amount of good with the money that he earns. I mean, he's not just stacking millions just for the scoreboard. I mean, he, he opened up a school. He, he does a tremendous amount of good. Now I'm not saying that that gives you carte blanche to do anything and say anything that you want. But I mean, you're talking about someone that, you know, makes good on that. He does well so that he can provide good for a lot of people. It's very similar. You know, I always found the Lance Armstrong situation very interesting. I mean, you know, people hate him with the tremendous vitriol because he was, he lied and that according to them, he, you know,

he cheated and so forth. But that same guy that lied and cheated has also raised billions of dollars for cancer research. I mean, he has no question. He has saved lives doing behavior that other people have kind of admonished. So some of these things can coexist at the same time. The other thing I'd say with the gentleman you mentioned from- Not they can, they do brother, right? Oh, absolutely. And the gentleman that you mentioned from CrossFit, where I would just make one slight change and maybe he views it differently, basically says, no one can pay me enough money to not say the truth

I don't think is accurate. No one can pay me enough money that I don't say my truth because his truth is not everyone else's truth. Him saying that those shoes that you just put up are ugly or don't work is his truth because clearly someone disagrees with that. And that's where I think we always have to remember that the way we see the world is not the way everyone else sees it. And as I've said, I can't say enough. I've done a few different things with the folks at Pepsi. I'm excited for this event coming up. They are phenomenal people. They're some of the best leaders I've ever been around. They are passionate about the work that they do. And that's the reason that I do that.

So I'm all about championing human beings. And I also realized that I can have, going back to the amicable divorce, I can have a respectful civil discussion with someone that views things very differently than I do. And to me, that's the fun part. So I think you raise a very interesting point, but my guess would

be, and it's purely speculative the way LeBron views what it is that, as you said, he's peddling, um, he views that very differently than the way you view what it is that he's peddling. And that's probably why there, there could be a slight disconnect. When you, um, what was the thought that, uh, when you wrote this book, do you remember the original thought that caused the book to start being written, Sustain Your Game? Yeah, well – Sorry, no, no. Let me go back even further. Sorry. Raise Your Game. Let's go with the first book. Do you remember – and how old were you? And any details you can give to your earliest memories of the birth of the book? And any details you can give to your earliest memories of the birth of the book? mid-2017, which not coincidentally was when I had just left the basketball training space to become a full-time professional keynote speaker in the corporate space.

And the original seed to write a book had been planted probably 20 years prior because I'm a voracious reader and I have so much reverence and respect for books and for authors. I could list a handful of books that I read them and I fundamentally changed my perspective on life after reading them and thought, my goodness, if I could ever put something out in the world that someone found helpful or useful or gave them one or two nuggets that allowed them to move closer to the person they were trying to become, that would be a really cool thing to do. I mean, that's the epitome of a candle loses nothing by lighting another candle. So the seed to write a book has been around for a couple of decades.

But when I made the leap from basketball to business for the alliteration, I said, this is the time to do it because I need to get clear on my thoughts. I need to organize my material. I need to figure out what one needs to do to raise their game because that's what I'm trying to do as I've just entered this new space where I have no brand recognition, no experience. You know, I've never had a corporate job in my entire life. So I thought, all right, I need to organize all of the principles that I've learned through these elite athletes that I'm going to

share with folks in the business world, but they're going to be the same principles that I'm going to use to guide my life and guide my career as a keynote speaker. So that was the reason for writing it. And then, you know, on the heels of that, I started to recognize that while many things overlap, there are some nuanced differences between the proverbial climb and then actually sustaining excellence for long periods of time and working towards fulfillment. So that was when I felt there was a need for a second book. And it became clear to me that the three things that undermine our ability to perform long-term and undermine our joy and fulfillment are stress, stagnation, and burnout. And those are three things that I've wrestled with my entire life. So it became clear those were going to be the focal points of the new book.

I muted myself. Yep. Someone pulled their car under my window and is listening to their favorite rap album. In 2019, what is the first step to writing the book? I think if I recall right, and I really like this, the way you said this in the book, and I'm wondering if you practice it yourself. Don't tell yourself, and I apologize if I'm wrecking your thought. Don't tell yourself you're going to start exercising. Get in the first few reps. Don't tell yourself you're going to start exercising. Get in the first few reps.

Don't tell yourself you're going to start writing a book. Go to the store and buy the notebook and get the first sentence down first. And that requires some great awareness, right, to catch that. And discipline. And that's, to me, motivation in our society gets over-indexed and over-glorified when its discipline is actually the key to success, the key to freedom, the key to performance, the key to fulfillment. You know, and we often think we need motivation in order to act or behave in a certain way, when in fact, it's the exact opposite. You can act your way into a higher level of motivation.

You can think to yourself, I don't feel like working out. But when you have the discipline to get to the gym and start getting those reps in, then the motivation will follow. When you say, okay, I'm glad I'm here. I'm glad I'm doing this CrossFit workout. I didn't feel like it 45 minutes ago, but now because I've exercised that discipline muscle,

then the motivation is going to follow. So I think we often get those things in reverse. There are times where additional motivation at the beginning is going to follow. So I think we often get those things in reverse. You know, there are times where, you know, additional motivation at the beginning is incredibly helpful. And there are times where I do feel highly motivated, but I also have times where I don't feel motivated at all. And I don't allow my performance to dip

when I feel that way. I hold myself to a high standard of excellence, regardless of how I feel, regardless of whether it's convenient, regardless of whether I want to, because to me, that's the definition of being a professional. You know, my only goal for coming on your show is to have a lovely conversation with you and get acquainted with you and to offer value to your listeners and your viewers. That's the only reason that I'm doing this. And I take a lot of pride in showing up and bringing my A game and bringing my

energy and the ability to articulate my thoughts because that's what a professional does. So you have no idea what type of morning I've had, whether I've had a wonderful morning or a lousy morning. You have no idea whether or not before we hit record, I was highly motivated or demotivated. And I like that because you don't need to know that because it's irrelevant. All that matters is that I show up as my best self as consistently as possible. And if you only show up as your best self when you're motivated, then you're going to be very inconsistent and you can't be a high performer or an influential leader or even be very fulfilled in life if you only kind of do those things when you're feeling motivated and you want to.

How many podcasts have you done? I've been a guest on probably 350 shows since 2017. And, um, have you been on any bad ones? One of the most unique ones I've ever been on. We've talked about some stuff that I had no idea we were going to talk about. So I really applaud you, my friend. Thank you. I, I, um, um uh i'm trying not to talk about myself don't worry mom i'm not gonna talk i want to learn about you you feel free to talk about yourself as much as you want you're a fascinating dude when when um uh have you at least 350 podcasts since 2017 have you been on any bad ones uh what would be your definition of bad? What's your definition of bad? Well, and this is part of the way I see the world now.

I try really hard not to view the world as right and wrong or good or bad. Okay, I have it for you. I have the definition. Okay. A host that interrupts you nonstop. No, no, that's me. Bad would be someone who didn't come prepared enough to show you the fucking respect you fucking deserve. They're taking an hour and a half of your fucking time, Mr. Stein, and they didn't bring their A game.

Yes, I have experienced that. Fuck those guys, but, but yes, but my view of that is, um, I still owe it to their audience to be my best self. So if, if I need to pick up your slack as the host, if you're unprepared or you ask foolish questions, that's a reflection of you and where you are. I don't want the audience to suffer for that. So I'm going to pick up the slack and bring the A game. So on one level, a podcast like this is in theory kind of 50-50. Well, if you only bring 10, then I guess I better bring 90 because I got to fill in the gaps to make sure the audience benefits from this because that's why I'm doing it. And I also do podcasts because it's good practice for me. It's a good repetition of articulating my thoughts and clarifying my position. So, you know,

to the, the two, three theme of practice, some of the best coaches that I've ever been around would intentionally design workouts in practice to be 10 times harder than the game would ever be. So that when the players went, got to the game, it was easier by default. So when I'm having a lovely discussion with someone like you that asks very direct and poignant questions, that makes my job as the interviewee actually easier. So when someone is unprepared or doesn't ask good questions or constantly interrupts, it makes my job harder, but that's what makes me stronger. So it's actually good practice to be on some bad shows because it gets me to strengthen my communication game. Now it's not my preference. I would prefer

to be on a show where someone is prepared and there's a nice flow. But I also realized I don't always get my preference and I have to be chameleon like, I don't want someone to say, Alan is a great interview when he's on a good show. He's awful when he's on a bad show. I want to be the best that I'm capable of, regardless of the host, regardless of the show, regardless of listeners. I don't care if 10 people are listening or 10 million people are listening. I owe it to anyone that's going to invest their time in something I have to say to do my very best. best so the so so i'm i'm i'm definitely um i i've never had listened to a podcast now that i do this podcast i listen to a shitload of podcasts because one if you didn't have a book and you were coming on the show what i would do is i would just go listen to other podcasts that you were on and

start just like if you said something then i would just be like, okay, how can I go deeper? And I would just start taking notes of stuff you've said before and kind of go that way. And then, and then similar to you, I'm very curious about people's history and their parents and where they were born and what kind of bike they rode as a kid and shit like that. So, um, there's always a shitload of shit to mine there, right? Ton of, ton of information to mine there. There's always a shitload of shit to mine there, right? A ton of information to mine there. But you're the only guest of the 500 shows I've done in the year – in the last year that I've had on where it was a – I received a cold email from someone saying, hey, this book has come out.

Do you want to have this guest on and i'm thinking to myself the part of me is like holy fuck you can't just have like you can't just put someone in front of me who doesn't know who i am and who's not armed they i might fuck them up like on accident i play with sharp objects like i just um and my mom has told me that um this is my living room and that i need to treat people even if i hate their guts with respect you know it's like a good armenian boy right they have to like i don't ask you if you're hungry i bring you a drink i bring you food and if you eat it you eat if you don't you don't i'm there to you know old schools to make sure that you know treat you like um and maybe in the buddhist

nature to treat everyone you meet like their god right like you're you're you know people who don't talk to strangers don't talk to angels so to treat everyone with with that um but but i do trip when someone like you comes on and then and then i and then i saw your book and the reason why i was up for the challenge too when we scheduled you um uh was because i was like okay this is gonna force me to read this book because there's no fucking way i'm having this guy on without reading his book you know what i mean yeah so did you before you come on and this is going back to like getting i don't do other people's podcasts because i think just they suck. I think so many other people fucking suck.

I don't want to carry your fucking show. If I'm going to carry a show, I'm going to do my own show. Sure. Do you look ahead of time like who you're going on to or what you're going to do? Or maybe it's just my insecurity. Are you just so confident that like, hey, wherever I go, it's going to be fine? It's a little bit of both. wherever I go, it's going to be fine? It's a little bit of both. I've done it. I've gotten enough repetitions that I do believe that I can navigate my way effectively and appropriately in

any situation. Most often I choose not to do a super deep dive into any one show that I'm going to go on because I want there to be a level of spontaneity. I want there to be a level of, of authentic, like curiosity. Now I've been on some shows that I've been regular listeners of their shows. I was recently on the, the Ed Milet show. I've been listening to Ed show for three years. I felt like I knew him intimately by the time I actually met him. Um, so it's, it's a little bit of both. I mean, I want to show the host an equal level of respect and preparedness. Um, and I knew that when I was coming on your show, that, that there could be some boomerangs

thrown at me, that we could go off script and talk about some things that, that I haven't talked about before things that could possibly be uncomfortable. I mean, you know, one of the things that I've enjoyed most about this conversation is, is you've taken us on a journey through some really hot topics, some hot buttons. You've got hot takes on certain things. And I like that. That is different because as you can probably imagine of the 350 shows I've been on, probably 300 of them ask very similar questions in a very similar way. And my answers could end up being very formulaic and robotic. So the fact that we've talked about some other stuff is great, but I also recognize there's a slight edge and danger to that,

that if you say something highly controversial and now we are inextricably linked because I'm on your show, that's something that could come back on me, but that's okay. I'm not looking to live a perfect life. I'm looking to meet really fascinating, interesting people like you, not looking to live a perfect life. I'm looking to meet really fascinating, interesting people like you learn from them and then do my best to share my perspective, to add value to any audience they have. So this, this has been a lot of fun. I'm, I'm so glad that we made this work. Uh, and I love your perspective and I think you do a terrific job. Can't wait to tell my mom I had an author on. Um, I do have the notes here in case like the conversation were to get dry. Like I have your book outlined here to be like, okay, ask him about,

ask him about that story about the time he met so-and-so, you know, tell him to tell it. So I, so it's, it's kind of, I, and it's my crutch. Yeah, of course. And it's my, and it's my crutch and I have it over here and I just keep. Doesn't look like we've needed it yet. We've just had a great conversation. I keep pretending. Did you go to college? I did.

I played basketball down. It was Elon College at the time. It's now Elon University down in Burlington, North Carolina. So I grew up in the D.C. area from 94 to 98, played basketball down at Elon, and then I moved back to where I live now, which is where I grew up in 99. And I've, I've been here since. Yeah. And how tall are you? I'm six one. It's funny. A lot of people that meet me in person think they're surprised I'm as tall as I am, because as you can see in the pictures behind me, most of the pictures I'm in, the guys are six, eight, six, nine, six, 10. So I look really short in the pictures. Uh, I met someone at an event yesterday and they're like, I thought you were going to be five, six or five, seven.

I'm six one. So, uh, I guess, but obviously I still need to hit the gym harder since the very first comment we got says, does this guy even lift? So as soon as this episode is over, I'm going to do some pushups and some pull-ups. You have to understand us CrossFitters. We think that everyone else sucks. Like you guys, if you're not doing what we're doing, you suck. I'm six, one, 190 pounds. Like I've got fairly low body fat. Like I'm healthy, man. I'm not, I'm not Dwayne, the rock Johnson or LeBron James, but I get it in. God, LeBron, LeBron has such an amazing physique. Yeah. What a, what a beautiful man. Yeah. Yeah. Such an amazing physique. What a beautiful man. And why did you get into basketball? Did your dad wanted you to play or mom? No, it was the first sport my parents signed me up for when I was in

kindergarten. I was five years old and I immediately fell in love. And throughout my youth, I played a variety of different sports. I mean, I've done everything from martial arts, which is why I love seeing your son in that clip there. I did martial arts, BMX biking, skateboarding, but also played football, soccer, baseball, basketball. But basketball was always my favorite, and I always kept coming back to it. You did some weird-ass martial art. What was it called? Tang Soo Do.

It's kind of a derivative of Taekwondo which is more people are familiar with taekwondo yeah okay and um what would you say so my kids my kids are um oh i wanted to throw this out there really quick by the way just totally offbeat and then i'll get back to what we're talking about the greatest kids the correlate that i see amongst kids in my small sample, the two things that I see of the greatest people I'm meeting, they're homeschooled, which is fascinating to me because I only thought weirdos were homeschooled. And people – the kid, the 15-year-old kid who got his first cell phone. Wow. The longer they get – the longer it takes for them to get their first cell phone and the homeschooled kids – like I haven't met one kid where I'm like – every single kid I ask them, I'm like, holy fuck. This kid makes eye contacts.

He shakes hands. He's present. He – what's up? Where did you go to school? I was homeschooled. Oh, okay. Well, I want you to teach my kid how to skateboard. Can I get your phone number, your parents' number?

I don't have a cell phone. How old are you? 14. Oh, when did you get it? Oh, when 15 16 it's like this it's crazy that's very fascinating when we were kids alan we would come home from school and open the dictionary and look and try to find a bad word remember that parents aren't home and you're like oh the fuck's not in there but bitch is in there and the definition sucks it's like a dog or something you're like it's not what i wanted but but now think what they can do yeah well i think i think it's what oh my god what makes parenting so challenging to come up with these these decisions

and these landmarks and uh i know that's one of the hardest parts that, that my ex and I, we try and navigate with our children. Um, yeah. Not even ask Alexa, my seven-year-old and five-year-old can ask Alexa anything. Yep. I do explain to them yesterday. They're like, where is she? I'm like, she's not, it's not a person. They're like, what do you mean? It's not a person. I'm like, she doesn't have a vagina, no vagina. They're like, what what it's how i do explain it to them that's a yeah that's a pretty uh just a real way to explain it for sure yeah it's not it's not a woman i could change her voice we could call her john we could call him john well this is where i actually think folks in our age demographic are fortunate because you know the first half of my life was with no

technology no cell phone i mean i i had an at Atari and eventually a Nintendo, but started with a big bulb television with three channels and not 24 hour programming. So I understand what it's like to be there. And I also understand what it's like now, because I'm, you know, doing this from a MacBook. I have all sorts of technology. I've got my iPhone, you know, and so I, I, I think we're very fortunate where we can kind of straddle, uh, both, you know, if you're, if you're, God, you sound old, God, you sound old, Alan. Well, I hate to break it to you. We kind of are, we're at least moving in that direction. Um, but if, if we were on the 80 year old and we might be less likely to embrace technology. And if you're on the eight year old end, the only thing you know is technology. So I think you and

I are kind of in the sweet spot where we can have an appreciation with both. Sevan, do you remember spelling boobs with a calculator? I do. We all know you did that for sure. Alan, when you played Atari, did you take the rubber thing off the top and just play with the white stick underneath? No, I think I keep the rubber thing on on what was the advantage of taking it off better yeah i just i had better um yeah just better control because there was a little bit of a delay because that rubber thing was padded like it would you know what i mean it would your thumb would push i mean it was minute but it was

like yeah no i i was not aware of that the The competitor in me, had I known that, if I had that information then, would have absolutely taken it off. My kids do skateboarding, jujitsu, tennis. Awesome. Almost nonstop, all day, every day. It's their thing. Probably surfing is coming up, a lot of piano. Wow. is coming up a lot of piano wow but what what i noticed about all the and i and i didn't play sports as a kid i was i was i was the you know when i grew up in high school and they were picking the teams all the boys would get picked and then some of the girls and then me like i was always i was the funny chubby kid i didn't i hated sweating i didn't like discomfort if we were

taking the presidential fitness exam i would let you guys me. And then I'd run in with you and get a good time. Like I, I really, um, I didn't get my first pull up. I had to do the test with the girls, the flex arm hang. Yep. And, um, do you, what am I, what disservice am I doing my child by only having him in individual sports? He did. There's no team sports. Yeah. It's funny that you said that. Cause as you were mentioning that, that was, that was what I thought of. I mean, ultimately I would let your children and what they want to do guide them. If that, if they're getting tremendous fulfillment and they love the self accountability of only doing an individual sport, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Um, uh, I would, I would say, Hey, if you guys ever have a desire to try soccer or volleyball

or basketball or football or whatever, um, you know, it being a part of something bigger than yourself and being a part of something where you have to rely on other people as well is just a new and different experience. And it might be one that you really enjoy, or it might be one that says, no, I'm going to go back to just being completely self-reliant. You know, I mean, when you, when you want to become a good pianist, the more time and effort you put into playing the piano, the better you'll be.

But if you want to be good at basketball, you have to learn how to play with four other players and you have to learn how to pass and catch. So it's just a different dynamic. That was where I'm fortunate. You know, when I look back on my childhood, I did an equal mix of both. And then I ended up preferring the team sports.

I ended up liking being a part of something bigger than myself and where I could work on my development, but I would use it to try to make everyone else around me better. But I think everybody's a little bit different. I mean, you've got, you know, LeBron James, one of the best athletes of all time. But then you have Tiger Woods, also one of the best athletes of all time. And he obviously graduated, uh, gravitated towards individual sports. LeBron went towards team sports. So I don't think there's a right answer. I would let your children's, um, what it is that they want to do kind of guide that direction. Did you, did you read range? I sure did. I loved it. David Epstein. What was that? Uh that caleb do you remember the other book i read that i was tripping on for a long time it was range and range was outstanding range was one of those books that kind of was different than i was expecting but it made some really really really good points and i i kind of changed my philosophy on certain things after reading it was it outliers outliers by

malcolm gladwell uh that no it was something more recent i read about that book i feel like 20 years ago there was another book that's i was reading range and then someone else said hey you should read this too it was um alan was range the book where the the kid had to play ping pong in in a small shed and so his reflexes got faster than the kids who played in the big shed. That may have been range. I mean, I know the entire premise was to try and do a lot of different things and learn and develop skills in a variety of different ways before you decide to specialize. The book opened comparing Roger Federer to Tiger Woods. Federer played all sports.

His mom was a tennis coach, and he was a naughty tennis player, wouldn't follow any of the rules. Whereas Tiger Woods at five years old got a golf club. He was just doing a golf club, yeah. Golfing. Yeah, that's range. Yeah. And just to let you know, I have another call coming up in two minutes. Are we almost?

Because I blocked off 90 minutes. Are we almost good? We're done. As much as I would love to stay and keep chopping it up with both of you. You guys are so amazing. I'm having a TikTok superstar on in 30 minutes, so fuck you. Get off my show. There you go.

You guys are amazing. You are amazing. Thanks for taking the journey with me. If there's ever anything I can do for you, I sent you my phone number uh i'm gonna read read your first book uh again you guys the name is of the two books are raise your game game and sustain your game and the author is alan stein brother thank you thank you guys so much this was so much fun appreciate you guys yep thanks alan you got it guys later later dude Appreciate you guys. Yep. Thanks, Alan. You got it, guys. Later. Later, dude. He's like, fuck you.

Two minutes. Fine. Get off my show. Are you? We got Darian and Justin in 29 minutes. Yeah. My headphones broke, so I'm going to have to go find some new ones, and then I should be able to come back on. Okay.

Dude, that's a cool dude. I wanted to talk to him more about how he got to write the book. I want to be inspired to put down some of my thoughts in a book. Didn't you write them for one time, and now it's just hidden away in a closet somewhere? I mean, I wrote a screenplay, Five Years to Fornication, the five years it took me of courtship from writing. And then I wrote

two books on how to grow marijuana under the name Seymour Buds. Is that still being sold? I'm trying to find it one time. I think it is. My wife wrote a children's book which is fucking awesome breathing with lily breathing with lily she just had the artwork redone you know who did redid the artwork um the guy he's a flow master for crossfit zach forest no good guess zach

how the hell do i not remember that zach lives near me too zach there's all these cool people that live near me that have amazing kids who i wish they're my i could get my kids together with his kids zach is this your book yes that's my first book marijuana budsijuana Buds for Less. Grow eight ounces of marijuana. Yeah. It's on Amazon. Anybody wants it? I had already quit smoking marijuana when I wrote that book. And look, did you see that? The first two words are this handy.

It doesn't get better than that. Can you pull up my wife's book, Breathing with Lily? I want to see who the artist is. Zach, what the fuck? He's got three or four kids. He's got an awesome hippie wife. This guy's like one of the best movers. He's old school CrossFit. He might even be older than me.

Breathing with Lily. It might be her last, her, it might not be hayley mitosi might be hayley parlin oh yeah yeah there it is oh and that's the old okay that's the old put the old pictures the old artist what is zach's name maybe my wife is listening to the show and she'll text me holy shit i have 121 text messages oh uh 621 text messages. Travis, I thought you said something along. Sevan, are you hiding Hiller? No, no, no. Hiller just got into town last night,

and I'm going to see him after the U of T UFG show. All right, guys, Allen Stein, sustain your game. I recommend it. I also recommend range. I also, the range was fun. This book, uh, sustain your game game. If I, if I had one criticism about it, I would say that it is, um, it could be 50 hours long. I mean, there's so, he drops so many bombs in there that could be unpacked. Um, I, uh, after talking with him, I even wonder if, you know, I wanted to get to the bottom. I wanted to be sure that he understood the profundity of what he was sharing. I mean, um, and, uh, you guys know that, uh, I, I, he, i he the if the my only criticism of the podcast would be like

there's this thing that he kept saying that there's there's different perspectives but that's okay that there's different perspectives and of course there are different perspectives but it's also okay to agree on the definition of words matter of fact it's paramount for evolved and people who want to communicate at a super high level we all have to agree that red is red because you can't fucking run a stoplight and be like no that looked green to me fuck you you don't get a driver's license then right like similarities of truth and fact yeah yeah it's like and i know he's a professional uh speaker and that that maybe was a way of deflecting um but um but there there are some things we have to agree upon and we we can't be concerned about the zero zero zero zero zero one

percent they can't tell the difference between red and green uh you just don't get a driver's license because you can't because you can't you don't know you don't recognize red and that can't tell the difference between red and green. You just don't get a driver's license because you don't recognize red and you can't stop at the stoplight. Sorry. Same thing. You don't want a doctor who's like, well, that's just your perspective that that's a man. No, you need your doctor to know what sex you are so he can perform the proper procedure.

Okay. Love you guys. Different perspectives. Okay. I love you, Alan. Sorry. Sorry. I don't want to take this down negative.

I love you, Alan. You're a great dude.